Has President Obama Run a "Good" Campaign

[atoms]

As we reach the end of this campaign it seems to me that Mr. Obama has run a campaign that many will be looking back on as a prototype of how to run a campaign. Some examples of the positive aspects of his campaign

- Generating vast sums of money through small contributions
- Staying on message...his campaign rhetoric has changed little, either when he was ahead, or when he was behind Hillary and McCain, in contrast McCain has seemed very reactionary, changing focus and message often.
- He has always seemed to be at the helm of his candidacy, whereas at times it seems like McCain has been following his advisors instead of leading them.
- He has taken advantage of the fact that his candidacy is exciting people, to use those people to get out the vote, and basically to be advocates for his candidacy...It has seemed that some previous candidates in both parties (and perhaps Ross Perot too) have not known how to harness the enthusiasm of their supporters.
- Keeping generally positive. While he has had some negative campaigning, it has primarily been on issues, not on personal attacks (the only major exception are the ads that portrayed McCain as old and out of touch). And he has gone long stretches never talking about McCain, but talking about what he hopes to do (whether you think what he saying is bullshit or not, it seems more constructive then spending almost your entire campaign directed at talking about the other guy). His 1/2 hour ad the other night didn't even really mention McCain.

Ok, those are the main things that come to mind....so the discussion is...do you agree that this was an exceptionally well run campaign. And if so, do you think that has any possible relevance to how this man will run the executive office (assuming he wins) and the country.

[UNC]

If the goal was to remain vague and indecisive and play on the approval rating of Bush, then yes, he's awesome.

[Tar Heel]

I don't think he was vague at all.

[UNC]

Well, that is what makes America great!

[Tar Heel]

True. I think both candidates did a good job of making their points. If there is one fault of McCain, it's that he is reactionary. He was kind of like Kerry 4 years ago with his fippidy flopping. Compared to 2004, this race was pretty civil.

The dirtiest campaign I have seen this year is Elizabeth Dole Vs Kay Hagen for senate in NC. I have yet to see a positive ad from either of them.

[atoms]

To some degree all candidates are vague.....they outline maybe a half dozen things they hope to accomplish. But as to the reality, that doesn't happen until they are president, and until whatever they are hoping to do has run through congress. But I think he has been about as specific as any candidate I can remember, and by being consistent I think most people know what he says he is hoping to do.

As to indecisive.....an example?

As to playing off the approval rating of Bush....damn straight. I don't think there would be a chance at us electing a "black" man if it wasn't for the unique failure of the Bush administration. I could be wrong, but I think just the fact that he is of color costs him 10% of the electorate. It has taken coming after Bush and his particularly well run campaign to overcome that. Also I think McCain's somewhat sub-par campaign helped too. This is coming after two democratic flops of campaigns.

[kid_vidrio]

I don't think he was vague at all.
Oh come on.
When asked on national TV about his relationship with various people, he gave the same answer he did in the printed press. If that is not an outright attempt to confuse people I don't know what is.

And on the issues? He's had that well hidden on his web site for months now under, get this, a link titled 'issues.' Can you believe the audacity? No wonder that was in the title of his book. A book that goes into detail about his life and how he thinks. More trickery I say! If you put it all out there, no one will see it because it is too easy to find!

He's a real vague son of a bitch this guy. And his middle name is Hussein!

[BusterPortugal]

The dirtiest campaign I have seen this year is Elizabeth Dole Vs Kay Hagen for senate in NC. I have yet to see a positive ad from either of them.

Hagan has filed a defamation lawsuit against Dole over the ad below. They used a voice over at the end which is supposed to sound like Hagan that says "There is no God."

Only 4 more days until no more phone calls during dinner, no more political ads...

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/hagan-sues-dole-over-atheist-ad-2008-10-30.html

QuS342L22QI

[Pox]

QuS342L22QI

Christ, that shit is vile.

[Tar Heel]

Yeah. Those 2 have waged the dirtiest campaign I have ever seen. I don't want to vote for either of them.

[Tar Heel]

Is it really a surprise though? I mean it's pretty much like 2 women in a argument. Neither one of them is willing to deescalate the situation. It just keeps getting more dirty and petty. I'm just waiting till the scratching and hair pulling start.

[Pox]

Yea, I just hope one of Liz Dole's knockers falls out.

[Willam]

Back to the original question, I agree that Obama's campaign structure will be a prototype for campaigns in the future. I'm not talking about his policies, speechs, or any other thing like that. Just the way his campaign is organized. Record amounts of money raised, thousands of volunteers. They have done a fantastic job.

[Yelram]

To some degree all candidates are vague.....they outline maybe a half dozen things they hope to accomplish. But as to the reality, that doesn't happen until they are president, and until whatever they are hoping to do has run through congress. But I think he has been about as specific as any candidate I can remember, and by being consistent I think most people know what he says he is hoping to do.

As to indecisive.....an example?

As to playing off the approval rating of Bush....damn straight. I don't think there would be a chance at us electing a "black" man if it wasn't for the unique failure of the Bush administration. I could be wrong, but I think just the fact that he is of color costs him 10% of the electorate. It has taken coming after Bush and his particularly well run campaign to overcome that. Also I think McCain's somewhat sub-par campaign helped too. This is coming after two democratic flops of campaigns.
Not indecisive????
I fucking hate people who dont pay attention, they are the easiest people to lie to.

Lets see
Obama: I'm all for using the public funding system for this campaign, and i'm not taking any PAC money.
Obama: Or maybe not.

Obama: I'm against offshore drilling
Obama: but maybe not

Obama: Coal is something we need to move away from(Biden: THERE WILL BE NO COAL PLANTS IN AMERICA!!)
Obama: clean coal is great

Obama: I'm for taxcuts for people making under 250,000 dollars
Or 200,000, or 150,000, or whatever I feel like making it.

Obama: I'm for removing the troops immediately
Obama: or whatever the generals on the ground say

Obama: Georgia needs to stand down
Obama: or not

Obama in infomercial: I will make sure to listen to those who disagree with me
Obama: GTF off my plane if you arent endorsing me.

Obama: I'll debate John Mccain anytime, anyplace.
Obama: or not

Obama: I will remove criminal penalties for Marijuana use
Obama: Or not

Obama: Its acceptible for localities to make laws restricting certain amendments (specifically the second amendment in reference to the DC gun ban)
Obama: States do not have the right to restrict rights granted by the constitution (In regards to abortion, and gay marriage, two things the constitution does not cover, and are instead the precedence of judicial rulings.

Obama: I never heard Rev Wright say anything controversial.
Obama: Of course I've heard Rew Wright say things that are somewhat controversial

YOU GUYS ARE FUCKING SHEEP, stupid sheep, who pay attention to whats infront of you, and not what has gone on over time.

Not to mention we cant trace where his contributions are coming from. He's used the anonymity of the internet to disguise his donors. He's just a stylish liar, who will say anything to get elected..

Promise people everything, and if they are dumb enough to believe it, they will vote for you....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=949_1225434793

[Claydon]

if by good you mean being a screaming lefty during the primary and then completely doing a 180 for the primary (oil drilling, iraq surge, etc etc etc), and putting out mostly rhetoric with almost NO details then hey, he was fan fucking tastic

[Mustard]

I guess we will all know the answer to this question on November 4th.

[Claydon]

I guess we will all know the answer to this question on November 4th.

don't be so quick to celebrate, this is the same country that elected bush.....twice.

[Tar Heel]

He learned alot from clinton on how to win an election.

[Mustard]

don't be so quick to celebrate, this is the same country that elected bush.....twice.
?

[Genius]

He learned alot from clinton on how to win an election.
Why is it that Democrats can run only great campaigns (Clinton, Obama) or absolutely horrible campaigns (Dukakis, Kerry)? There's never a middle ground. Well, there was Gore, but he's never taken a step off the middle ground in his life.

[atoms]

To Yelram...I doubt I'm any more of a sheep then you are....but if we all are I can guarantee your following a different shepard.

Some of your points are actual changes....others not so much...I'm going to cherry pick a few that I am better informed on.

I'm all for using the public funding system.....well he definitely gave him self a little wiggle room on this one, then used it, but with the organization and donation collection system he was using and the advantage that was giving him....can you blame him. As to PAC money he said he would not collect it for the presidential campaign and hasn't. He did receive PAC money for his senate campaign, but given that at that time he hadn't said he wouldn't take it I don't see that as inconsistent. And sure you can take the higher road when you have the money coming from another source....but I think that is my point....this campaign has been well run....no comments on his senate campaign (though it obviously was successful).

As to the tax cuts he has always been consistent... but there are two main things he is saying. If you make less than $250k your taxes will not go up. If you make less than $200k you will get a tax cut. He uses these statements interchangeably and it can get confusing. So, in case you are not following....$0-$200k taxes go down. $200k-$250k....taxes stay basically the same. $250k and up....taxes go up.

Georgia needs to stand down.....actually his initial statement was everyone needs to stand down. This was also the initial statements of Pres. Bush, NATO and the EU.

As Russia's rhetoric seemed to indicate even more than the initial conflict that they were not listening to anyone else, almost everyone's denouncement of Russia increased, including Obama's.

Obama can have who he wants on his plane. He seems to be listening just fine. I can listen to you without having you at my dinner table.

As to Rev. Wright. I believe all he said was that he was not in attendance for any of his more fiery sermons. But he knew he held views like this. The man brought him seriously to Christianity and was a father figure to him. But that does not mean he had to buy into every crazy thing the guy thought. He took the good and ignored the bad.....you ever done that with a relative or friend....I know I have a few generous racists in my family, whom I love but despise some of their views.

As to some of the energy issues (Coal and Oil), he has definitely moderated his position. And while flip-flopping is the worse sin in American politics, I'm always for a little pragmatism. The other problem is that the anti position is usually a sound-bite. If there are some nuances to your thoughts, they are often hard to express in one sentence. When given the chance to talk/write longer, usually his positions are fairly moderate. One last point....I wish Bush had been a little more able to change his mind a few times.

Claydon....I don't see it. 180 degree shift. Between the primary and the general election, the audience changes.....but I can't think of a candidate in recent memory who has been more consistent in his message from primary to general election. Exactly the same...no....but more consistent than is usually the case...definitely.

[detroitwilly]

son, we're gonna go out trick or treating tonight.
You're gonna eat dinner early, put on your costume, go out and walk the neighborhood ALLL NIGHT looking for front porch lights that are lit up, and smile real nice and hopefully they will put something nice in your bag.

We're gonna do this until it gets dark, and we're gonna try and go as fast as possible so we can get as much candy as possible.

You're gonna have to work hard, and I know your legs are gonna get tired, but if you work hard, think of all the candy you will have. It will be very rewarding.

Oh yea, I forgot to tell you something though.

When we get home I'm gonna take all of your candy out of your bag.
(I know you worked hard for it, but I have to do this)

What I'll do next is split up the candy and give equal amounts to you and all of the other kids in the neighborhood.

I know that the other kids were too lazy to get a costume and work hard going out and trick or treating around the neighborhood.
I know that the other kids were inside staying warm playing Playstion while we were busting our asses in the cold wearing our legs out to get this candy.

But that's the way things have to be.

Why?

Because son, that's the way President Obama has made our country.

[Mustard]

son, we're gonna go out trick or treating tonight.
You're gonna eat dinner early, put on your costume, go out and walk the neighborhood ALLL NIGHT looking for front porch lights that are lit up, and smile real nice and hopefully they will put something nice in your bag.

We're gonna do this until it gets dark, and we're gonna try and go as fast as possible so we can get as much candy as possible.

You're gonna have to work hard, and I know your legs are gonna get tired, but if you work hard, think of all the candy you will have. It will be very rewarding.

Oh yea, I forgot to tell you something though.

When we get home I'm gonna take all of your candy out of your bag.
(I know you worked hard for it, but I have to do this)

What I'll do next is split up the candy and give equal amounts to you and all of the other kids in the neighborhood.

I know that the other kids were too lazy to get a costume and work hard going out and trick or treating around the neighborhood.
I know that the other kids were inside staying warm playing Playstion while we were busting our asses in the cold wearing our legs out to get this candy.

But that's the way things have to be.

Why?

Because son, that's the way President Obama has made our country.
What the fuck is all of this horse shit?

[mongo]

son, we're gonna go out trick or treating tonight.
You're gonna eat dinner early, put on your costume, go out and walk the neighborhood ALLL NIGHT looking for front porch lights that are lit up, and smile real nice and hopefully they will put something nice in your bag.

We're gonna do this until it gets dark, and we're gonna try and go as fast as possible so we can get as much candy as possible.

You're gonna have to work hard, and I know your legs are gonna get tired, but if you work hard, think of all the candy you will have. It will be very rewarding.

Oh yea, I forgot to tell you something though.

When we get home I'm gonna take all of your candy out of your bag.
(I know you worked hard for it, but I have to do this)

What I'll do next is split up the candy and give equal amounts to you and all of the other kids in the neighborhood.

I know that the other kids were too lazy to get a costume and work hard going out and trick or treating around the neighborhood.
I know that the other kids were inside staying warm playing Playstion while we were busting our asses in the cold wearing our legs out to get this candy.

But that's the way things have to be.

Why?

Because son, that's the way President Obama has made our country.

willy never fails to be awesome.

[Rover]

What the fuck is all of this horse shit?Obama's economic policy explained in a way that even a child can understand the unfairness.

[Yelram]

Obama's economic policy explained in a way that even a child can understand the unfairness.

Its so funny.

Bush: Lowers taxes for every income bracket and equal percentage, even going as far as to drop the lowest bracket altogether
Democrats say: Tax cuts for the rich

Obama: Raise taxes on the wealth producing tax bracket, and give "tax relief" to people who dont even pay taxes.
Democrats = Fair deal for the middle class.

[Mustard]

Obama's economic policy explained in a way that even a child can understand the unfairness.
No. It is horse shit. The end.

[Gary_Busey]

I like my tax policy written exactly as the authors intended, because I'm not 10 years old. If you accept it in any other form, you shouldn't be voting.

[detroitwilly]

son, we're gonna go out trick or treating tonight.
You're gonna eat dinner early, put on your costume, go out and walk the neighborhood ALLL NIGHT looking for front porch lights that are lit up, and smile real nice and hopefully they will put something nice in your bag.

We're gonna do this until it gets dark, and we're gonna try and go as fast as possible so we can get as much candy as possible.

You're gonna have to work hard, and I know your legs are gonna get tired, but if you work hard, think of all the candy you will have. It will be very rewarding.

Oh yea, I forgot to tell you something though.

When we get home I'm gonna take all of your candy out of your bag.
(I know you worked hard for it, but I have to do this)

What I'll do next is split up the candy and give equal amounts to you and all of the other kids in the neighborhood.

I know that the other kids were too lazy to get a costume and work hard going out and trick or treating around the neighborhood.
I know that the other kids were inside staying warm playing Playstion while we were busting our asses in the cold wearing our legs out to get this candy.

But that's the way things have to be.

Why?

Because son, that's the way President Obama has made our country.

What the fuck is all of this horse shit?


IT'S SOCIALISM
although lately, people have been referning to it as:

"socialism you can believe in"

don't worry, you'll be affected by it very soon.

[Gary_Busey]

If you really, honestly believe Obama's plan is socialism, then you have no idea how government has worked for the past century.

[Mustard]

IT'S SOCIALISM
although lately, people have been referning to it as:

"socialism you can believe in"

don't worry, you'll be affected by it very soon.
You might want to stick to Gen Con if you really think Obama is a dyed in the wool socialist...

Because like I said before, its horse shit.

EDIT: However, if you would like to talk about the tennents of socialism, I would love to direct you to the "Barack Obama is a socialist" thread, page 5, about half way down. There I go into detail about a socialist program Alaska has had in place since 1982, and one that Sarah Palin (who is on the GOP ticket *wink*) has promoted and participated in ever since she became a citizen of Alaska. Its either that, or you can politely disembark from the McCarthyist Fear Train that many uninformed people seem to be suscribing to lately.

[detroitwilly]

I know how the government works.
and I'm terrified of Obama.

[Mustard]

I know how the government works.
I never said you didn't.
I'm terrified of Obama.
Then we have somewhat similiar feelings, because I have a rational terrified feeling about Sarah Palin.

Here's how I see it, as potential Presidents:

Barack Obama = Good
Joe Biden = Good
John McCain = OK
Sarah Palin = I'm building a rocket ship and flying to the moon.

[Gary_Busey]

I know how the government works.
and I'm terrified of Obama.
You do? Really? Then you must be ashamed of the socialist government that's been in play for the last century.

[Claydon]

son, we're gonna go out trick or treating tonight.
You're gonna eat dinner early, put on your costume, go out and walk the neighborhood ALLL NIGHT looking for front porch lights that are lit up, and smile real nice and hopefully they will put something nice in your bag.

We're gonna do this until it gets dark, and we're gonna try and go as fast as possible so we can get as much candy as possible.

You're gonna have to work hard, and I know your legs are gonna get tired, but if you work hard, think of all the candy you will have. It will be very rewarding.

Oh yea, I forgot to tell you something though.

When we get home I'm gonna take all of your candy out of your bag.
(I know you worked hard for it, but I have to do this)

What I'll do next is split up the candy and give equal amounts to you and all of the other kids in the neighborhood.

I know that the other kids were too lazy to get a costume and work hard going out and trick or treating around the neighborhood.
I know that the other kids were inside staying warm playing Playstion while we were busting our asses in the cold wearing our legs out to get this candy.

But that's the way things have to be.

Why?

Because son, that's the way President Obama has made our country.

my god, that is fucking brilliant

[Mustard]

You cannot be serious...

[Claydon]

You cannot be serious...

I am as serious as you are about that glazed candied ham in your fridge.


Next on all night with clay and the fatman...

[Mustard]

I am as serious as you are about that glazed candied ham in your fridge.


Next on all night with clay and the fatman...
Its funny you mention glazed, I have Krispy Kremes from a donation drive in my kitchen.

no ham though.

[Feng]

It's great, these idiots calling Obama "socialist"

It's like everybody suddenly joined the $250,000 a year income bracket and is now fearing they'll be unfairly taxed.

If only some of you douches would not be so easily glazed and confused by McCain's smear-mongering and Mcarthy-ism (America has come so far hasn't she)...

Everybody except the tiny 3% of Americans who actually make over $250,000 a year will enjoy several tax benefits under Obama... Depending on whether you are married, have a mortgage, are paying for college for your kids, or are a senior citizen with medicare expenses. All average every day Americans will have their lives made a little bit easier under Obama's economic plan. Yet you fear it. Joe the fucking Plumber would benefit from Obama, but never McCain - unless he would rather send his boys off to war and force his little girl to keep her baby. Don't worry conservatives, under either guy, you still get to keep your guns and god. But if you think McCain has middle-class interests in mind - you are delusional! Unless of course, you run a major multi-national corporation involved in war profiteering or shipping American jobs overseas.

Go educate yourselves: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes/Factsheet_Tax_Plan_FINAL.pdf

[zerodesire]

I don't even know where to begin...so i'll just go with McCain is kind of a victim of possibly the worst ran campaign in a long time. It's turned into bigotry, racism, and just constant flip flopping...

Bill Ayers is now linked to McCain which is awesome...so Ayers is linked to Obama and McCain...but heres the funny thing...IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER...

I totally agree that Palin is scary as all hell...McCain should have done more then one interview with her and one talk over the phone.

And I would even say if McCain and Rommey somehow won...it wouldn't be the end of the world yet...

And after all that I would just like to point out i'm a strong supporter of Obama for the awesome reason that Biden is on the ticket. That combo is a safe bet.

[vasili denisov]

son, we're gonna go out trick or treating tonight.
You're gonna eat dinner early, put on your costume, go out and walk the neighborhood ALLL NIGHT looking for front porch lights that are lit up, and smile real nice and hopefully they will put something nice in your bag.

We're gonna do this until it gets dark, and we're gonna try and go as fast as possible so we can get as much candy as possible.

You're gonna have to work hard, and I know your legs are gonna get tired, but if you work hard, think of all the candy you will have. It will be very rewarding.

Oh yea, I forgot to tell you something though.

When we get home I'm gonna take all of your candy out of your bag.
(I know you worked hard for it, but I have to do this)

What I'll do next is split up the candy and give equal amounts to you and all of the other kids in the neighborhood.

I know that the other kids were too lazy to get a costume and work hard going out and trick or treating around the neighborhood.
I know that the other kids were inside staying warm playing Playstion while we were busting our asses in the cold wearing our legs out to get this candy.
You've used Halloween as a metaphor for capitalism; halloween is ultimately a limited expression of communism. It involves one group of agents (parents and house owning adults) buying candy to give to another group of agents (children in costumes). Whereas in capitalism, two agents enter a relationship under the expectation of mutual benefit, the agents in Halloween (candy giver and candy taker) do so with only the self-interest of the candy taker's accounted for; the candy giver acts either out of benevolence, or under the expectation that their child will receive a similar amount of candy from other givers.

There are expectations of both groups of agents;givers should give out candy, not fruit or religious items, while takers should dress in a costume, though these expectations are not codified in law or severe: some givers will give out better or more candy than others, some children will have better costumes. Though some children may go to more houses than others, there is the expectation that each child should receive a roughly equal share of candy at a house. The very fact that the good exchanged is candy, a perishable good that can only be eaten in relatively small quantities before someone gets sick limits acquisition (as opposed to money, where a very large amount can be acquired and stored).

So, what we have is a ritual outside the rules of our capitalist society very close to that of a model farm. There are reasons that allow such ritual which prevent it from competing with the capitalist model; it is very brief;one group of agents is entirely children, of whom we do not have the same expectations as adults;and it carries the markers of paganism, indicating that it is something both ancient and anachronistic within our secular empirical society.

That someone outside the group should break the rules, take the candy, and distribute it to people outside the group of candy takers (children without costumes) is not an indicator even that such a temporary communist system doesn't work; but points up that it relies on non-legal enforcements. A parent who took candy from his child and gave it to a group of other children on the grounds that "Obama just got elected" would be viewed with great stigma by those within the community; other parents would feel great sympathy for a child with such a parent, and they might band together to buy the child his lost candy. Again, this is a non-legal remedy that could not be expected from the structures of a capitalist system.

So, we have a well-running communist system where one agent acts irrationally and disrupts the distribution of a good; that this has been presented as a metaphor for a transition from capitalism to socialism, that it has been praised as "brilliant" for its depiction may be due to two possibilities: the actions of an irrational agent in any system is taken as a proper depiction of Obama's plan, though the system and agent have no connection whatsoever with Obama's plan; any metaphor which has the property of depicting Obama's plan and demonstrates an unfair outcome for an approval giver's proxy, will receive approval.

The metaphor, depicting a communist system, is of no importance in evaluating a plan for a capitalist economy. Since the approvals either do not, or do not wish to, recognize the nature of the system in the metaphor, their approvals are irrelevant as well.

[kid_vidrio]

In short, the analogy is not just a poor one, but wholly inaccurate and anyone who cheers for it is a moron.

[Insomniac]

Obama: Raise taxes on the wealth producing tax bracket, and give "tax relief" to people who dont even pay taxes.


Why do people still say this? Honestly, the income tax is a tax on people's incomes. But everyone who lives in America for any length of time pays taxes. If you work, you have payroll taxes. If you buy gasoline, you pay taxes to nearly every level of government. And then most states have general sales taxes. There's probably others I'm forgetting, too.

"I'm a tax payer! My opinion matters!"

Christ, just shut up. EVERYBODY pays taxes, and it's nearly impossible to get back more than you gave away.

[Archangel]

Willy, I love you to death, but the next time someone calls Obama a "socialist" I'm gonna cut someone.

Seriously, you people need to fucking stop using that word, because you have NO MOTHER FUCKING IDEA what socialism is.
Reminding people who make obscene amounts of money of their obligations towards society, trying to get health care to people, or giving some handouts to the needy isn't "socialism", for fuck's sake.
55% income tax for anyone who makes more than $80,000 a year is socialism. Taxes on fucking everything is socialism (20% VAT, 75% petrol tax, etc etc). The government giving every family of illiterate unemployable Muslims $400/month PER CHILD is socialism. The unions running your country's economy is socialism. Everybody with any business know how fleeing your country is socialism. Putting gay-ass naive ideals before objective reality is socialism.
Nobody who proposed any of that shit could become a politician in your country, let alone a presidential candidate: We have been living under such rules for 7 of the last 10 fucking years. And we got off light.


So stop fucking whinging like some bitches about paying a few hundred bucks more per annum, you greedy selfish bastards. And for fuck's sake, stop calling what Obama proposes "socialism". Compared to actual bloody socialism, it's peanuts. It's calling a Zippo lighter Mount Etna.

Jesus Christ, you guys are serious about keeping your money, aren't you. Is there anything else you care about? If somebody thinks that millionaires should give back to society, they're Vladimir fucking Lenin?

[kid_vidrio]

Arch, you are a socialist and you are violating my 1st amendment rights.

[kid_vidrio]

Actually, let's talk about socialism.
For all you out there that are up in arms about it, consider your use of this board.
RP runs a business and as a by-product operates these forums.
I don't see any of you leading the charge to send him a couple hundy a month in exchange for the value you get from here.
So either you think he is making money from his site and should just contribute this (redistribution of wealth) or you haven't stopped to think about it, which makes you a whole-hearted participant in a nanny state and practically communist.
The next time you go on about socialist this and communist that, I dare you to examine the roads you drive on, the school you or your kids go to, and the other umpteen things you do as a result of a system of taxes. Then consider how little, in reality, anyone's taxes will go up, what with exemptions, credits, loopholes, and outright evasion, then put all that in you pipe and smoke it.

[Willam]

Everybody except the tiny 3% of Americans who actually make over $250,000 a year will enjoy several tax benefits under Obama...


You mean $200,000/year.

EDIT: Oops, You mean $150,000/year.

EDIT: EDIT: Oops, you mean $120,000/year


And bottom still drops...

[Feng]

You mean $200,000/year.

EDIT: Oops, You mean $150,000/year.

EDIT: EDIT: Oops, you mean $120,000/year


And bottom still drops...

NOT! Read his tax plan...

Why don't you go out and try making dozens of stump speeches every week, and have to blurt out several figures from health care to taxes to the war. It is quite excusable and easy to get tongue tied and mess up a figure here and there... McCain has made it an art form during this campaign! Too bad douchebags lock on to slip ups (from either campaign) and try to run with them as the new facts of the campaign...

By the way... Even if they were to lower that to $120,000 - so what! I am still unaffected by it, and so are a majority of Americans still. And we're only talking a 3% increase, simply undoing the damage done by the Bush admin and returning to the system we had under Clinton, which was still better than what we had with your hero - Reagan! So all this bitching about it is just a sign you being herded like sheep by the Republican smear-n-fear campaign - lambs to the slaughter for another 4 years.

[Claydon]

NOT! Read his tax plan...

Why don't you go out and try making dozens of stump speeches every week, and have to blurt out several figures from health care to taxes to the war. It is quite excusable and easy to get tongue tied and mess up a figure here and there... McCain has made it an art form during this campaign! Too bad douchebags lock on to slip ups (from either campaign) and try to run with them as the new facts of the campaign...

These are not slip ups, and enjoy your tax bill when it comes due in the next 18 months. the 250k sounds nice, but given current deficits and his 4.3 trillion in spending he will need to raise taxes.....period.

[Feng]

These are not slip ups, and enjoy your tax bill when it comes due in the next 18 months. the 250k sounds nice, but given current deficits and his 4.3 trillion in spending he will need to raise taxes.....period.

Wow, I love how you base this claim on absolutely nothing but your own speculation...

Idiot, taxes are being raised, on the people who can contribute the most! Also, since you never took macro-economics, you can't understand that in the big picture of this entire country's scale of finances and economy, $4.3 trillion is not very much money. Also realize, that money, or debt, will be paid back over years and years to come, such that we won't be paying for it, the next generation will be the beneficiaries of that debt.

Edit: I wonder what imaginary hat you pulled 4.3 trillion out of...

[Stax]

Yep. Raising taxes on the wealthy roughly 3% and cutting taxes for everyone else is definitely socialism and the same as taking a kids candy.

Exactly the same.

[Yelram]

Willy, I love you to death, but the next time someone calls Obama a "socialist" I'm gonna cut someone.

Seriously, you people need to fucking stop using that word, because you have NO MOTHER FUCKING IDEA what socialism is.
Reminding people who make obscene amounts of money of their obligations towards society, trying to get health care to people, or giving some handouts to the needy isn't "socialism", for fuck's sake.
55% income tax for anyone who makes more than $80,000 a year is socialism. Taxes on fucking everything is socialism (20% VAT, 75% petrol tax, etc etc). The government giving every family of illiterate unemployable Muslims $400/month PER CHILD is socialism. The unions running your country's economy is socialism. Everybody with any business know how fleeing your country is socialism. Putting gay-ass naive ideals before objective reality is socialism.
Nobody who proposed any of that shit could become a politician in your country, let alone a presidential candidate: We have been living under such rules for 7 of the last 10 fucking years. And we got off light.


So stop fucking whinging like some bitches about paying a few hundred bucks more per annum, you greedy selfish bastards. And for fuck's sake, stop calling what Obama proposes "socialism". Compared to actual bloody socialism, it's peanuts. It's calling a Zippo lighter Mount Etna.

Jesus Christ, you guys are serious about keeping your money, aren't you. Is there anything else you care about? If somebody thinks that millionaires should give back to society, they're Vladimir fucking Lenin?


Okay, listen HE HAS NO RECORD, he can say ANYTHING he wants. His message right now is focused on winning the presidency, after that, he's going to do whatever he wants. At this point, its about finding what his intentions are, not what he claims his intentions are. Beware the sound of one hand clapping.

[Stax]

Okay, listen HE HAS NO RECORD, he can say ANYTHING he wants. His message right now is focused on winning the presidency, after that, he's going to do whatever he wants. At this point, its about finding what his intentions are, not what he claims his intentions are. Beware the sound of one hand clapping.

So is his tax plan a meaningless lie that he won't accomplish, or is it his true socialist plan for America? You only get to pick ONE lie, Yelram, if it's a meaningless lie it doesn't matter what it is.

[Yelram]

So is his tax plan a meaningless lie that he won't accomplish, or is it his true socialist plan for America? You only get to pick ONE lie, Yelram, if it's a meaningless lie it doesn't matter what it is.

Its what historically, socialists have done to gain power. They find the largest voting block, demonize the rich, and pander to the many. Promising everything to everyone. His tax plan has changed so many times since he started running, I dont know what he's going to do.

[Stax]

Its what historically, socialists have done to gain power. They find the largest voting block, demonize the rich, and pander to the many. Promising everything to everyone. His tax plan has changed so many times since he started running, I dont know what he's going to do.

No, answer me Yelram. Is it:

A. A meaningless lie, so who cares what the content is because he's not going to enact it OR
B. Socialism/Communism

? Pick one lie and stick with it.

[Yelram]

No, answer me Yelram. Is it:

A. A meaningless lie, so who cares what the content is because he's not going to enact it OR
B. Socialism/Communism

? Pick one lie and stick with it.

Its both. Its income redistribution in a small scale being proposed, and It will turn into a large scale thing once he gets elected.

[Stax]

Its both. Its income redistribution in a small scale being proposed, and It will turn into a large scale thing once he gets elected.

No, that's not both, that's B. If it's what he's going to do in office then he's not a soft candidate not telling you any details, he's telling you precisely what he'll do in office.

[Yelram]

No, that's not both, that's B. If it's what he's going to do in office then he's not a soft candidate not telling you any details, he's telling you precisely what he'll do in office.
He's telling people what they want to hear.

[Stax]

I'm not going to stop until you make up your mind. What he says CANNOT matter if it is soft language that will never become law (since it won't become law it could be directions to making Rice a Roni for all that matters). So is your problem a lack of policy definition or a disagreement with his policies?

[Yelram]

I'm not going to stop until you make up your mind. What he says CANNOT matter if it is soft language that will never become law (since it won't become law it could be directions to making Rice a Roni for all that matters). So is your problem a lack of policy definition or a disagreement with his policies?

How does it feel to have a mind that operates like the flip of a coin with no shades of grey?

[Stax]

How does it feel to have a mind that operates like the flip of a coin with no shades of grey?

How does it feel to not answer questions?

[Yelram]

How does it feel to not answer questions?

I totally answered your fucking question, you are just too braindead to accept my answer because it isnt one of your predetermined choices for me. His tax plan AS IT APPEARS ON HIS WEBSITE RIGHT NOW gives money back to people who dont pay taxes, and punishes the wealth producing bracket for being successful. You tax the businesses, and upper incomes, you completely choke off the middle-lower class. What he is going to do once he gets in, is claim that, due to the current economic conditions, the tax for the rich will have to be much higher.

[Pox]

So now were arguing against a tax plan that doesn't even exist yet?

I can't wait for Tuesday so this shit will be over.

[Stax]

I totally answered your fucking question, you are just too braindead to accept my answer because it isnt one of your predetermined choices for me. His tax plan AS IT APPEARS ON HIS WEBSITE RIGHT NOW gives money back to people who dont pay taxes, and punishes the wealth producing bracket for being successful. You tax the businesses, and upper incomes, you completely choke off the middle-lower class. What he is going to do once he gets in, is claim that, due to the current economic conditions, the tax for the rich will have to be much higher.

Because you say so.

And finally we come to the central reason people don't like you, Yelram. You're basing an entire argument on an "I say so" argument with zero evidence to back it up.

[Pox]

Pretty much everyone I know will pay less taxes under Obama's plan.

But I'd rather let it trickle down!

[nuclearjew]

Trickle down. Like pissing in your hair in order to have the piss trickle down to put the fire on your feet out.

[Hobnail_Boot]

These are not slip ups, and enjoy your tax bill when it comes due in the next 18 months. the 250k sounds nice, but given current deficits and his 4.3 trillion in spending he will need to raise taxes.....period.
I make about 70K per year and get taxed $800 per month. That is not awesome. Obama's plan would lower my taxes. I'm voting for him.

[Claydon]

I make about 70K per year and get taxed $800 per month. That is not awesome. Obama's plan would lower my taxes. I'm voting for him.

ummmm yyyyyyyyyyyah, except, it will most likely not going to happen as the government needs to cough up trillions to cover current nanny state programs, and trillions more to cover future nanny state programs.

[Feng]

"Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society."

Since nobody on a frat-boy forum like this one is included in the "small segment of society that controls capital," why the fuck any of you worried about socialism? Do you like living in a society that can only work if most are poor, so few can be rich?

Anyhew, as posted earlier, anybody here yelling "socialist!" has no idea what socialism is, nor any clue just how productive, stable and healthy the socialist countries of this world are... Sweden is to the USA as Lance Armstrong is to Rosie O'Donnell. ;)

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Pretty much everyone I know will pay less taxes under Obama's plan.

But I'd rather let it trickle down!

Of course...

Nothing can trickle up. Try asking a poor person for a job sometime and see how far ya get.

If this sad sack carries through with his promises, along with the help of that rabid cunt Pelosi, Reid....and others, he will completely fuck this country.

So much for my trip to North Korea....I won't even need to leave the US before too much longer in order to experience the same thing.

The only saving grace is that I truly believe Obama is simply doing what every good Dem does best....pandering for votes. Most of his promises won't come to fruition.

[Archangel]

Yes. Making your greedy selfish ass pay a few hundred bucks more per annum is THE EXACT SAME THING as North Korea.

Sometimes I wonder how the smart conservatives like Rover and Debo can stand being lumped in with utter fucking cretins like you.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Of COURSE Obama has run a good campaign, what kind of question is that. Part of the reason he has such a huge lead in the polls is how perfectly he's run his campaign, especially when contrasted with how horrendously McCain has run his.

[Yelram]

Of COURSE Obama has run a good campaign, what kind of question is that. Part of the reason he has such a huge lead in the polls is how perfectly he's run his campaign, especially when contrasted with how horrendously McCain has run his.

Its pretty easy when the media is sucking your cock the whole time.

[Archangel]

Its pretty easy when the media is sucking your cock the whole time.

As I keep saying, stop talking of literate people who live in the big cities as not "pro-America", and maybe the major media, most of which are in the big cities and most of whose members can read and write, might stop hating you.

If you wage a class war against those evil liberal coastal intellectuals, what do you expect, that they suck YOUR cock in return?

[Yelram]

As I keep saying, stop talking of literate people who live in the big cities as not "pro-America", and maybe the major media, most of which are in the big cities and most of whose members can read and write, might stop hating you.

If you wage a class war against those evil liberal coastal intellectuals, what do you expect, that they suck YOUR cock in return?

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. A classwar? Hmmm, which ticket is trying to have a class war here? Literate people? You are such a fucking snob man. I hope one day you get clubbed in the head by some pissed off Turk, and then everyone can call you a stupid shithead the rest of your life because you cant talk, and spend the day drooling on yourself.

[Insomniac]

From the beginning, Sarah Palin said 80% of the country doesn't have the good, small-town values or realness she does. It's part of the Republican myth, but I'm a conservative who lives in a city, has been to college, and reads books, and from everything they say, they don't like me.

[Archangel]

You people are so great at staying on the issues and not resorting to personal attacks, Yellie.

[Archangel]

From the beginning, Sarah Palin said 80% of the country doesn't have the good, small-town values and realness she does. It's part of the Republican myth, but I'm a conservative who lives in a city, has been to college, and reads books, and from everything they say, they don't like me.

That's because people who read and think question things.

In Mrs Palin's world, that makes you a terrorist.

[Archangel]

I've come to find that 90% of people who extol those phantomatic "small town values" are small town fucking hicks.

[Yelram]

You people are so great at staying on the issues and not resorting to personal attacks, Yellie.

Well when some dumb asshole german takes every chance he can to emphasize false partisan stereotypes that are as fucking ridiculous as saying all Germans hate Jews, or fucking koreans cant drive cars, and then sit here and pretend you know jack shit about our country.

[taters]

Conservatives are starting to sound like spoiled babies. Angry spoiled babies who arent getting what they wanted, and are pissed off the majority of the nation disagrees with them.

[Rover]

That sounds like liberals in 2000 and 2004. I'm sensing a pattern.

[Archangel]

Well when some dumb asshole german takes every chance he can to emphasize false partisan stereotypes that are as fucking ridiculous as saying all Germans hate Jews, or fucking koreans cant drive cars, and then sit here and pretend you know jack shit about our country.

I know the big cities. Chicago, I know pretty well.

I am fucking thankful to God that I don't know jack shit about the jerkwater shitholes where people seriously consider voting for a ticket with Nicole Richie's political twin on it because she's "one of them" (ie an ignorant fucking hick).

Have you ever even been out of your county? State?


And honestly, you aren't doing much to make me repudiate that stereotype, because you're acting out every single part of it.

[Archangel]

Everything you're trying to tell me is wrong about my mindset, your every post proves isn't.

[Archetype]

I've come to find that 90% of people who extol those phantomatic "small town values" are small town fucking hicks.
OI!

[Yelram]

I know the big cities. Chicago, I know pretty well.

I am fucking thankful to God that I don't know jack shit about the jerkwater shitholes where people seriously consider voting for a ticket with Nicole Richie's political twin on it because she's "one of them" (ie an ignorant fucking hick).

Have you ever even been out of your county? State?


And honestly, you aren't doing much to make me repudiate that stereotype, because you're acting out every single part of it.

Oh yes, because inner city schools are the bastion of intelligencia, give me a fucking break. I have been all over the place up and down the east coast, I own a business, and I dont exactly have the money to go flying all over the world. In your mind, anyone who doesnt agree with your fucking snobish, cosmopolitan, point of view is an "ignorant hick". Unless you live in fucking Berlin, I probably live in a place thats more populated than you do. In the US, most of the highly educated people ORIGINATE in smalltown America. The best high schools in this country are in places that arent as densely populated, and the people that can afford to send their kids to good colleges are as well. So for you to say that everyone who is rural is somehow unintelligent, proves how completely full of shit you are.

[Archangel]

In your mind, anyone who doesnt agree with your fucking snobish, cosmopolitan, point of view is an "ignorant hick".

Yes.

I think that the views of someone who values education and erudition and who has travelled the world and experienced many different cultures is - regarding politics, especially international relations, at least - worth more than the view of someone who thinks that people in Europe have no electricity and that Central America means Kansas. I am firmly convinced of that, and think that to think anything else is manifestly idiotic. It's got nothing to do with rural or urban; it's got something to do with your paradigms.

How the fuck is "cosmopolitan" even an insult? I'm seriously waiting for the day when "literate" becomes one, too. "Fuck you, you book-readin' terr'st!"

Yeah, lovely.

[Archetype]

What you readin for?

[Archangel]

Not to be lumped in with the Palin fanboys.

[taters]

How the fuck is "cosmopolitan" even an insult? I'm seriously waiting for the day when "literate" becomes one, too. "Fuck you, you book-readin' terr'st!"


It already is. Ask the people of Texas, Idaho, Wyoming, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Nebraska, Kansas and Alaska.


Its sad that intellect has now been villified in the name of one party attempting to get votes. Ignorant people who want other ignorant people who are 'just like them' to run the country. Newsflash, we got that, and it works bad for everyone.

[Yelram]

Yes.

I think that the views of someone who values education and erudition and who has travelled the world and experienced many different cultures is - regarding politics, especially international relations, at least - worth more than the view of someone who thinks that people in Europe have no electricity and that Central America means Kansas. I am firmly convinced of that, and think that to think anything else is manifestly idiotic. It's got nothing to do with rural or urban; it's got something to do with your paradigms.

How the fuck is "cosmopolitan" even an insult? I'm seriously waiting for the day when "literate" becomes one, too. "Fuck you, you book-readin' terr'st!"

Yeah, lovely.

Good to see your enlightened trips around the world have taught you how everyone is an ignorant hick but you, and people who think like you. Its good to see how open minded you are. And you wonder what they mean when they say "elitism".

[Archangel]

Why should I be open minded towards ignorance? Élite is a GOOD THING, lest you forget. I want to have élite doctors treating me when I get sick, I want to be taught by élite professors, and my future children to go to élite schools. I want an élite lawyer looking after my rights, and my country run by the smartest people possible, ie the élite. Sue me.

If you want Joe the Plumber to do all that for you, be my guest.

All other things being equal, I think more highly of educated people than of ignorant ones. If that makes me somehow evil, so fucking be it.

[Yelram]

Why should I be open minded towards ignorance? Élite is a GOOD THING, lest you forget. I want to have élite doctors treating me when I get sick, I want to be taught by élite professors, and my future children to go to élite schools. I want an élite lawyer looking after my rights, and my country run by the smartest people possible, ie the élite. Sue me.

If you want Joe the Plumber to do all that for you, be my guest.

I think more highly of educated people than of ignorant ones. If that makes me somehow evil, so fucking be it.

You are calling it ignorance, purely because someone doesent agree with you. You were seriously saying "50% in taxes isnt that bad", well guess fucking what buddy, I disagree, and many highly educated people disagree. There are many highly educated republicans. I want someone who sees government the same way I do, as more of a problem, than a solution. This is the founding principles of my country, it is not the view of "ignorant hicks".

[Archangel]

I never said 50% income tax wasn't bad. I just said that we have it, and you don't, so you should complain less about taxes or throw around the term "socialism" because you may lose $500 a year.

And this is the problem:

This is the founding principles of my country, it is not the view of "ignorant hicks".

Your country was founded over 200 years ago. Times have changed. The problem with successful progressive paradigms is that at some point, they stop being progressive because objective reality changes; it's just that some people still think that since they were progressive at some point, they still are today.

I admire your Constitution. I really do. I think it's one of the greatest, most important documents ever written. However, to apply it to reality as if this were the 19th century is the exact same thing as taking the Bible literally: Stupid (incidentally, I believe that there are quite a few people who do both). Exegesis of any founding document is an ever ongoing process, because it has to be.
In a stupendously wealthy country such as yours, making sure that everybody has access to certain things like healthcare, or that the divide between the rich and the poor doesn't get too obscene isn't some evil socialist plot: It's basic human fucking decency, not to mention common sense.
Today, waiting for the taxman with your Springfield in hand - even figuratively - is a pretty hick thing to do.

[Insomniac]

Well, more like "the founding principles of the country" were being debated then and forever after, it's just that Jefferson became president and Hamilton got shot.

[Yelram]

I never said 50% income tax wasn't bad. I just said that we have it, and you don't, so you should complain less about taxes or throw around the term "socialism" because you may lose $500 a year.

And this is the problem:



Your country was founded over 200 years ago. Times have changed. The problem with successful progressive paradigms is that at some point, they stop being progressive because objective reality changes; it's just that some people still think that since they were progressive at some point, they still are today.

I admire your Constitution. I really do. I think it's one of the greatest, most important documents ever written. However, to apply it to reality as if this were the 19th century is the exact same thing as taking the Bible literally: Stupid (incidentally, I believe that there are quite a few people who do both). Exegesis of any founding document is an ever ongoing process, because it has to be.
In a stupendously wealthy country such as yours, making sure that everybody has access to certain things like healthcare, or that the divide between the rich and the poor doesn't get too obscene isn't some evil socialist plot: It's basic human fucking decency, not to mention common sense.
Today, waiting for the taxman with your Springfield in hand - even figuratively - is a pretty hick thing to do.
The divide between the rich and poor? That is not something the government should have a hand in. How can the government prevent poor people from being poor, and rich people from being rich, without TAKING SOMEONES PROPERTY. You have allowed government to take over charity in your country, turning it into something more similar to a government church than a sound economic policy. Half of your country lived under communism, and now it seems, it wont be long till both halves are.

[Archangel]

I thought Republicans were supposed to be a largely Christian bunch: Doesn't Christ teach us charity? How can the people who call down the wrath of God on somebody and anybody who gets an abortion let almost 10 million of their country's children be without access to health care?

What the fuck have you people done to my faith?

[Archangel]

The divide between the rich an poor? That is not something the government should have a hand in. How can the government prevent poor people from being poor, and rich people from being rich, without TAKING SOMEONES PROPERTY. You have allowed government to take over charity in your country, turning it into something more similar to a government church than a sound economic policy. Half of your country lived under communism, and now it seems, it wont be long till both halves are.

Yeah, we're living under communism. That's why our taxicabs are Mercedes E-Classes, and the chairman of Porsche makes $100 million a year, despite our taxes. You really don't know what you're talking about, do you. Oh, and 17 is not as much as 63, but that's another matter.

And the government doesn't need to do anything as long as the people at the top don't lose all sense of measure and decency. The problem is, they have. Europeans will never understand how in your country, people making $20,000/year will defend to their deaths the interests of millionaires to whom you're less than nothing.

[heelsguy]

I have a question, Arch. How do you find any time to post on message boards in your own country on matters that actually effect your day to day life? I mean Jesus 2500 posts since august?

I personally have a problem with a German acting like he is a fucking expert on my country. Chicago lakeshore drive withstanding, all you know about america is what you have been spoon-fed in the media

[Yelram]

I thought Republicans were supposed to be a largely Christian bunch: Doesn't Christ teach us charity? How can the people who call down the wrath of God on somebody and anybody who gets an abortion let almost 10 million of their country's children be without access to health care?

What the fuck have you people done to my faith?

Right, you see, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Noone gives more to charity than republicans.

http://philanthropy.com/free/articles/v19/i04/04001101.htm
http://www.preemptivekarma.com/archives/2006/11/professor_says.html

THATS WHY ITS CALLED CHARITY. God. We have healthcare for all children, it is through state run programs, the way it should be.

[Archangel]

To heelsguy: So that means that Yelram should never again be allowed to make a post about Iraq?

Because I'm pretty sure he has rather less first hand experience on it than I have about the US. And where should I have lived, for how long a period, for me to be allowed to have or voice an opinion?


And the problem is that your country's decisions do fucking affect me. If you kidnap German citizens and throw them into Gitmo, or if you fuck up our relations to our neighbours to the east because of your ridiculous missile shield, or if people want to blow up commuter trains here because the retard you voted for started a pointless and obscene war, that has consequences on my country.

[Yelram]

Yeah, we're living under communism. That's why our taxicabs are Mercedes E-Classes, and the chairman of Porsche makes $100 million a year, despite our taxes. You really don't know what you're talking about, do you. Oh, and 17 is not as much as 63, but that's another matter.

And the government doesn't need to do anything as long as the people at the top don't lose all sense of measure and decency. The problem is, they have. Europeans will never understand how in your country, people making $20,000/year will defend to their deaths the interests of millionaires to whom you're less than nothing.

If we had your economic numbers, even for a quarter, the media would be saying we were in the worst time since the great depression.

[Archangel]

If we had your economic numbers, even for a quarter, the media would be saying we were in the worst time since the great depression.

Yeah, we're fucking starving here.

You really think we ride donkey carts here, don't you.

[Archangel]

It's not like half the EU member states have a higher per capita GDP than the US or anything, with most of the rest not far behind.

[Archangel]

We have about 1/4 of your population, yet we export far more than you...

Yeah, our lives suck.

[heelsguy]

To heelsguy: So that means that Yelram should never again be allowed to make a post about Iraq?

Because I'm pretty sure he has rather less first hand experience on it than I have about the US. And where should I have lived, for how long a period, for me to be allowed to have or voice an opinion?


And the problem is that your country's decisions do fucking affect me. If you kidnap German citizens and throw them into Gitmo, or if you fuck up our relations to our neighbours to the east because of your ridiculous missile shield, or if people want to blow up commuter trains here because the retard you voted for started a pointless and obscene war, that has consequences on my country.

give me a break. you have made more sterotypical generalizations regarding republicans than most democrats would in several lifetimes.

[Archangel]

give me a break. you have made more sterotypical generalizations regarding republicans than most democrats would in several lifetimes.

And you didn't answer any of my questions. Another stereotype confirmed.


I'm liking this.

[Yelram]

It's not like half the EU member states have a higher per capita GDP than the US or anything, with most of the rest not far behind.
Using Per Capita GDP for 2007 the only member state that surpasses us is Luxembourg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

Oh wow, tiny little member states that are smaller than New Jersey. 440,000 people.

If I use Washington DC in comparison, it blows it out of the water.

[Archangel]

Using Per Capita GDP for 2007 the only member state that surpasses us is Luxembourg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States

Oh wow, tiny little member states that are smaller than New Jersey. 440,000 people.

If I use Washington DC in comparison, it blows it out of the water.

Um, no. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita)

[Archangel]

http://i35.tinypic.com/w2gifm.jpg

[Yelram]

Um, no. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita)
It really depends on the current trading rate of the Euro vs the dollar.

[Archangel]

It really depends on the current trading rate of the Euro vs the dollar.

Yeah, using the CIA's data and exchange rates from Oct 2, 2008, you sneak by Austria and the UK by a few hundred bucks. Congrats.

Still not quite enough to look down upon us as if we were the third world here.

[Archangel]

It still exposes your previous statement as factually false, though.

[Yelram]

Yeah, using the CIA's data and exchange rates from Oct 2, 2008, you sneak by Austria and the UK by a few hundred bucks. Congrats.

Still not quite enough to look down upon us as if we were the third world here.
I never said you were third world, but if we had your unemployment rate alone, we would be fucked. If we compare directly EU vs US, GDP per capita, we win, hands down. You are talking about the rich and the poor, and how we need to be responsible, and yet you pretend like Europe doesnt have a bigger gap between rich and poor than we do, which is horseshit. Theres a bunch of old European money. And alot of what fuels the European economy is US investment.

[Archangel]

I never said you were third world, but if we had your unemployment rate alone, we would be fucked.

Depends. You're at around 6%, we're a bit over 8%: But since hardly anybody here would work for US minimum wages, that number is a bit skewed, isn't it.

[Archangel]

I never said you were third world, but if we had your unemployment rate alone, we would be fucked. If we compare directly EU vs US, GDP per capita, we win, hands down. You are talking about the rich and the poor, and how we need to be responsible, and yet you pretend like Europe doesnt have a bigger gap between rich and poor than we do, which is horseshit. Theres a bunch of old European money. And alot of what fuels the European economy is US investment.

Thank you, massa, for giving us de money. Yeah, because it doesn't happen the other way around, or anything.

Also, bigger gap between rich and poor? Seriously? Dude, there is nothing here that compares to the squalor of your ghettoes and trailer parks, and little that compares to the greed of your tycoons. Old European money? Maybe in Britain, but here, after two wars? Please.

and I'm supposed to be the one talking out of my arse.

[Yelram]

Depends. You're at around 6%, we're a bit over 8%: But since hardly anybody here would work for US minimum wages, that number is a bit skewed, isn't it.

We are up to 6, but thats a rarity, if you look back over the past decade, it averages ALOT lower than that. And I bet that, since our poorest state Mississippi would come in somewhere in the middle, and has a better ranking alone, than all the EU states do collectively, that many of the citizens of the EU would clamor to take a minimum wage job in the US.

[Archangel]

Yeah, but we're socialists, so our nice governments give us unemployment benefits and stuff.

[Claydon]

I thought Republicans were supposed to be a largely Christian bunch: Doesn't Christ teach us charity? How can the people who call down the wrath of God on somebody and anybody who gets an abortion let almost 10 million of their country's children be without access to health care?

What the fuck have you people done to my faith?


This really shows your complete ignorance to US politics and what you see and know is merely vomited up by whatever EU news media source you subscribe to and or frequent. There are MANY aspects of both parties, I happen to be in the military hawks/socially progressive/fiscally conservative branch of the republican party. A western style republican as opposed to a midwest or bible belt southern republican.

[Feng]

This really shows your complete ignorance to US politics and what you see and know is merely vomited up by whatever EU news media source you subscribe to and or frequent. There are MANY aspects of both parties, I happen to be in the military hawks/socially progressive/fiscally conservative branch of the republican party. A western style republican as opposed to a midwest or bible belt southern republican.

The Republican party is one party. Just because it is full of a lot of the wrong people, many of which have beliefs you don't agree with, doesn't mean you are not affiliated with them... If you are Republican, you are in the same party as Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson and Charleton Heston...

If you are going to sum up the entire Democratic party as a bunch of liberal left-wing socialists (which you constantly do), then you have to concede that your party is a bunch of war-mongering right-wing zealots.

If you are going to try and resign yourself to just one tiny aspect of any party system, then you are an Independent. You may not be a bible freak, but you want the same thing they do: armageddon!

[Claydon]

The Republican party is one party. Just because it is full of a lot of the wrong people, many of which have beliefs you don't agree with, doesn't mean you are not affiliated with them... If you are Republican, you are in the same party as Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson and Charleton Heston...

If you are going to sum up the entire Democratic party as a bunch of liberal left-wing socialists (which you constantly do), then you have to concede that your party is a bunch of war-mongering right-wing zealots.

If you are going to try and resign yourself to just one tiny aspect of any party system, then you are an Independent. You may not be a bible freak, but you want the same thing they do: armageddon!

So I suppose I can expect to you see you at the next 'Code Pink' gathering? Don't ask me what that is, use fucking google.

[Feng]

So I suppose I can expect to you see you at the next 'Code Pink' gathering? Don't ask me what that is, use fucking google.

You mean you're also a woman for peace!!

[Archangel]

This really shows your complete ignorance to US politics and what you see and know is merely vomited up by whatever EU news media source you subscribe to and or frequent. There are MANY aspects of both parties, I happen to be in the military hawks/socially progressive/fiscally conservative branch of the republican party. A western style republican as opposed to a midwest or bible belt southern republican.

Yeah, but your party's VP candidate said that the state you live in is not pro-America, so I guess that she thinks your opinion doesn't count.

And seriously, don't act like evangelicals aren't a major force within the GOP.

[Yelram]

Yeah, but your party's VP candidate said that the state you live in is not pro-America, so I guess that she thinks your opinion doesn't count.

And seriously, don't act like evangelicals aren't a major force within the GOP.

Name the last law passed pandering to evangelicals.

[marquis]

Name the last law passed pandering to evangelicals.

Repubs are looking for the laws from evangelicals, they are looking for the votes. And you know it.

[Yelram]

Repubs are looking for the laws from evangelicals, they are looking for the votes. And you know it.

As if Dems dont have groups that openly pander to that are full of idiots, and never pass any legislation regarding.

[marquis]

I never suggested otherwise. But to say that just b/c there hasn't been a law passed that pandered to evangelicals is proof that they are not a significant part of the Rep. party is ridiculous

[Yelram]

I never suggested otherwise. But to say that just b/c there hasn't been a law passed that pandered to evangelicals is proof that they are not a significant part of the Rep. party is ridiculous

Well Arch has asserted before that our policy is shaped by evangelicals, and i'd love to see proof of that.

[detroitwilly]

Its pretty easy when the media is sucking your cock the whole time.

how dare you say something like that about Obama?
that is so far from the truth.
I'm about ready to reply to you with a 6 paragraph essay about my thoughts. I might even turn it in to my liberal college professor to see if she thinks it's good.
waaaa waaaa waaaa.

I'm kidding Yelram, I agree with you.

I do however regret getting involved in political matters at GMF, and I'll never do it again.

it's like a Rolling Stone magazine forum, or an MTV forum.
Rock tha Vote, cha'll!!!!!!

[Yelram]

how dare you say something like that about Obama?
that is so far from the truth.
I'm about ready to reply to you with a 6 paragraph essay about my thoughts. I might even turn it in to my liberal college professor to see if she thinks it's good.
waaaa waaaa waaaa.

I'm kidding Yelram, I agree with you.

I do however regret getting involved in political matters at GMF, and I'll never do it again.

it's like a Rolling Stone magazine forum, or an MTV forum.
Rock tha Vote, cha'll!!!!!!

Its hard being anything close to a republican on here. These people are vicious little ticks. I sure hope Michigan goes Mccain, I know its a longshot, but its possible.

[Stax]

Its hard being anything close to a republican on here. These people are vicious little ticks. I sure hope Michigan goes Mccain, I know its a longshot, but its possible.

Yeah, so vicious, responding to your posts and everything....?

[Feng]

Well Arch has asserted before that our policy is shaped by evangelicals, and i'd love to see proof of that.

The addition of "Under God" to the pledge of allegiance in 1951... Brought about by the Knights of Columbus (same guys trying to ban gay marriage in CA right now) got this done thanks to a Republican president and congress. The president was convinced to add it while attending a church!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Addition_of_the_words_.22unde r_God.22

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Yes. Making your greedy selfish ass pay a few hundred bucks more per annum is THE EXACT SAME THING as North Korea.

Sometimes I wonder how the smart conservatives like Rover and Debo can stand being lumped in with utter fucking cretins like you.

You have no say so with regard to matters germane to this country, Kraut....stay out of it.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Yes. Making your greedy selfish ass pay a few hundred bucks more per annum is THE EXACT SAME THING as North Korea.



I earned it, it's mine. Let the other bastard go earn his, Der Weiner

[Pox]

Someone kill this faggot.

[Archangel]

I earned it, it's mine. Let the other bastard go earn his, Der Weiner

Don't try typing German. Considering that my English is far superior to yours, your attempts at trying to taunt me using mis-spelt German is pretty pathetic.

And again, thanks to you to for making me feel vindicated about my generalisations regarding a large percentage of US "conservatives".

So, Yelram, you were saying that there was no conservative idiot in the entire US?

[Feng]

So, Yelram, you were saying that there was no conservative idiot in the entire US?

LOL!!! Conservative and idiot... Kind of synonymous terms I thought....

[Archangel]

Hey, I'm a conservative.


I'm just not stuck in a time when sex was a sin, hardly anybody could read, and people lynched n*****s for fun.

[taters]

Hey, I'm a conservative.


I'm just not stuck in a time when sex was a sin, hardly anybody could read, and people lynched n*****s for fun.

And your in germany. Conservative germans are practically center left Americans. Thats not saying germany is far left, that saying America is far far right.

The standard american conservative falls into one of 2 classes

1. Rich or middle class/business owner to do christian white male or female living in a homogenous state/city/town/part of town.
Said persons

-Are cautious of different people, specifically blacks and hispanics
-Are massively anti-tax
-Have little dependence or use for most government programs (kids in private school, pay their own medical care, own their own homes, maybe more than one etc)
- Are usually educated, most to at least a Bachelors degree, some a masters, but few higher than that.
- Sees government as needlessly wasteful
- Gives often to charity, but does not support government assistance
- Does not own a gun
- Has 2 or less children

and;

2. Working or poor christian white male or female, living near , but usually not in, multicultural areas.

said persons

- Are extremely religious
- Are mostly uneducated, and if so usually only to high school level
- holds high prejudices for anyone not like themselves (racial or religiously)
- Highly likely to believe in stereotypes
- believes the bible to be literal
- Believes in racial and religious stereotypes
- Sees the government as invasive
- owns a gun
- Does not give to charity
- has 2 or more children


I dont have the book anymore, but thats just a few of the averages I remember from my old American Soc undergrad course.

[Claydon]

And your in germany. Conservative germans are practically center left Americans. Thats not saying germany is far left, that saying America is far far right.

The standard american conservative falls into one of 2 classes

1. Rich or middle class/business owner to do christian white male or female living in a homogenous state/city/town/part of town.
Said persons

-Are cautious of different people, specifically blacks and hispanics
-Are massively anti-tax
-Have little dependence or use for most government programs (kids in private school, pay their own medical care, own their own homes, maybe more than one etc)
- Are usually educated, most to at least a Bachelors degree, some a masters, but few higher than that.
- Sees government as needlessly wasteful
- Gives often to charity, but does not support government assistance
- Does not own a gun
- Has 2 or less children

and;

2. Working or poor christian white male or female, living near , but usually not in, multicultural areas.

said persons

- Are extremely religious
- Are mostly uneducated, and if so usually only to high school level
- holds high prejudices for anyone not like themselves (racial or religiously)
- Highly likely to believe in stereotypes
- believes the bible to be literal
- Believes in racial and religious stereotypes
- Sees the government as invasive
- owns a gun
- Does not give to charity
- has 2 or more children


I dont have the book anymore, but thats just a few of the averages I remember from my old American Soc undergrad course.
\


Hmmm, lets see tater you are black so therefore you are:

A drug dealer
Have gold teeth
Drive an escalade
think Marion Barry got screwed by the man
OJ is innocent
A gang member
dropped out of high school at 14


your generalizations are disgusting, and you really should be banned for your outright and obvious racism. you disgust me.

[Insomniac]

There's a difference between generalizations and stereotypes, Claydon.

[taters]

\


Hmmm, lets see tater you are black so therefore you are:

A drug dealer
Have gold teeth
Drive an escalade
think Marion Barry got screwed by the man
OJ is innocent
A gang member
dropped out of high school at 14


your generalizations are disgusting, and you really should be banned for your outright and obvious racism. you disgust me.


Your ignorance disgusts me.

First, CONSERVATIVES ARE NOT A RACE, you retard. The fact that you believe they are makes you the racist, not to mention a fucking imbecile with terrible english comprehension skills.

I was quoting (as I said, and you never read) an undergraduate 200 level Soc Textbook's averages, moron. I wasnt stating my personal opinions.

There WAS a study done to give that info. I no longer have the book and its been almost 10 years since taking the couse. Nothing stated even has a naturally negative connotation, NOR does it relate to race.

The average conservative IS white in america, dumbshit. You dont need a fucking gallup poll to know this.

By the way, RACISM doesnt get banned here, dipshit. I was fighting that train against legs and people like Mongo and Goat YEARS before your whiney cry baby moronic ass arrived on the gmf.

[Hobnail_Boot]

\


Hmmm, lets see tater you are black so therefore you are:

A drug dealer
Have gold teeth
Drive an escalade
think Marion Barry got screwed by the man
OJ is innocent
A gang member
dropped out of high school at 14


your generalizations are disgusting, and you really should be banned for your outright and obvious racism. you disgust me.
Serious question: what's false about what he (tater) wrote in the post above (http://forum.gorillamask.net/showpost.php?p=210249&postcount=139)?

[Insomniac]

Most black people aren't any of those things, except maybe that they think OJ is innocent of murder, and almost no one is all of them, whereas tater's post was typical demographic data about a given population.

[Soup Nazi]

I think if tater would take out the line:
-Are cautious of different people, specifically blacks and hispanics
From the first group, I don't see how many people could really take much issue with it. Mainly because that does pretty much label all of them racists, which I don't beleive is true for the first group.

[BooBooBear]

Obama's run a good campaign. Better than John McSame.

[Feng]

Serious question: what's false about what he wrote in the post above?

Maybe in America, Claydon described a stereotypical black from an obscenely bigoted and condescending point of view...

BUT MOST BLACK PEOPLE ARE NOT IN AMERICA! Claydon, there is an entire world outside of 'Merica... One day you should try and visit some of it...

[Feng]

Obama's run a good campaign. Better than John McSame.

More like, John McShame...

[Rover]

More like Nobama.

That was fun.

[freegood]

That's an outdated textbook with extremely simple stereotypes. In fact, if you exclude the role in gov., you could say those traits are shared by rich and poor white Democrats.

[kid_vidrio]

This religion thing is way off topic, but so tantalizing.

I think you need to add 'biblical literalist' in place of 'extremely religious' to group two to differentiate it.

[Archangel]

'biblical literalist'

I thought those idiots had been extinct since Augustine.

[Limp]

If the goal was to remain vague and indecisive and play on the approval rating of Bush, then yes, he's awesome.
Lulz.


THERE WILL BE CHANGE! AND IT WILL BE THE CHANGIEST CHANGE ANYONE HAS EVER SEEN!

BTW... Did I mention that I am black?

[Archangel]

elstavon pointed this out already, but the man explicitly outlines his plans and goals on his website, and has also written a 450-page book on them.

I have no idea how that can be considered "vague".

[Limp]

Website? What if I don't have the internet?

[Archangel]

Then you need to get your arse into the 21st century.

If you don't have a TV, you don't see the candidates' speeches and debates, either; what argument is that?

[Yelram]

elstavon pointed this out already, but the man explicitly outlines his plans and goals on his website, and has also written a 450-page book on them.

I have no idea how that can be considered "vague".
Did you read them?

[Archangel]

Did you read them?

The book, yeah. The website, cursorily.

[Yelram]

The book, yeah. The website, cursorily.

First of all, many of his assertions in his book are inconsistent with the fairy tale he has at his website. His website does not give any specifics on any of his plans, and gives a rough overview that doesnt delve into some very important specifics, like, oh I dont know, how the fuck to pay for them. He says he's going to cover several million more people with healthcare coverage, lower the costs of every persons healthcare, and somehow, not charge people anymore, its just horseshit, I cant believe how many people have fallen for it.

[Archangel]

You're really bitter that people don't want Paris Hil... er, Sarah Palin as their VP, aren't you.

[Yelram]

You're really bitter that people don't want Paris Hil... er, Sarah Palin as their VP, aren't you.

See, you completely changed subjects, we were talking about issues, and you've changed the talk to some sort of pop culture sort of "who likes who" better thing.

Here is Obamas plan to fix poverty.



Barack Obama will expand access to jobs:

Obama and Biden will invest $1 billion over five years in transitional jobs and career pathway programs that implement proven methods of helping low-income Americans succeed in the workforce.
Make work pay for all Americans:

Obama and Biden will increase benefits for working parents, raise the minimum wage to $9.50 an hour by 2011, and provide tax relief to low- and middle-income workers.
Support rural and urban areas:

Obama and Biden will invest in rural small businesses, improve rural schools, and attract more doctors to rural areas. And they will work with urban leaders to increase the supply of affordable housing and address the unique challenges of every metropolitan area.

Platitudes, as always.

[kid_vidrio]

yeah. compare that to teh great detail mccain goes into on his site.
you are holding obama to a different standard.

still, when he does go into detail, he's managed to fool people like buffet and volker economically and several retired military types on security, so he must spin a pretty impressive yarn.

[Yelram]

yeah. compare that to teh great detail mccain goes into on his site.
you are holding obama to a different standard.

still, when he does go into detail, he's managed to fool people like buffet and volker economically and several retired military types on security, so he must spin a pretty impressive yarn.

Have you looked at John Mccains website?

[freegood]

yeah. compare that to teh great detail mccain goes into on his site.
you are holding obama to a different standard.

still, when he does go into detail, he's managed to fool people like buffet and volker economically and several retired military types on security, so he must spin a pretty impressive yarn.

He's a trickster doing his Sammy Davis dance.

Also, the flight of many respected Republicans and newspapers who formerly endorsed Bush in 04 is pretty striking given the amount of lies Obama can weave.

They obviously don't read respected Conservative websites like Newsmax or DieObamaDie.com....

[Yelram]

He's a trickster doing his Sammy Davis dance.

Also, the flight of many respected Republicans and newspapers who formerly endorsed Bush in 04 is pretty striking given the amount of lies Obama can weave.

They obviously don't read respected Conservative websites like Newsmax or DieObamaDie.com....


Please show me a level of specificity on the Obama site that isnt surpassed by the Mccain site. The Republicans that are jumping ship dont want to be on the wrong side after the election, and they are assuming the polls are right.

[freegood]

Why should I waste my time on you when you should be making your own case, oh yee of many crazy answers?

Psst... if you don't know what their sites are it's
http://www.barackobama.com/index.php
http://therealmccain.com/

[Yelram]

Why should I waste my time on you when you should be making your own case, oh yee of many crazy answers?

Psst... if you don't know what their sites are it's
http://www.barackobama.com/index.php
http://therealmccain.com/


Wow, Its amazing how many smart people have turned into empty husks devoted to Obama. If you make a comment, and you cant support it, dont post in the thread.

[Morfin]

Wow, Its amazing how many smart people have turned into empty husks devoted to Obama. If you make a comment, and you cant support it, dont post in the thread.

Empty Husk, here. I just voted for Obama by absentee ballot. Voted for virtually all other Republicans. I think Obama has run a good campaign against Hillary and McCain, especially when they were losing and grasping at any negative straw they could -- he remained, for the most part, above it all.

As to his book and his website, Obama has put a lot of information out there. Republicans have claimed that "we don't know the real Obama." I disagree with that, based on what has been dug up about him. The problem that Yelram and others so breathlessly assert is not that the information is out there, but that they cannot believe that more voters have not chosen to believe that the information is sufficient to warrant an anti-Obama vote.

All of the Ayers information is out there. All of the Haladi (or whatever his name is) information is out there. All of the Wright information is out there.

Yelram and other believe that this information is more than sufficient to justify a McCain vote; obviously, if the polls are anyway near to being accurate, the majority of Americans do not find that information disqualifying. Yelram cannot conceive how people cannot agree that this information is so bad. That is the problem -- his problem. He chooses to believe that this information is disqualifying and anyone who does not agree must be stupid. As he asserts, "How can you not see it?"

It is not that I can't see it; it is that I see it and I do not find it significant. I am fearful of Obama and how my taxes will be increased (because I am in the bracket that he says will get increases), but, out of the two major-party candidates, I think Obama has the better chance of putting this country back on its feet, both domestically and in the eyes of other countries.

[Yelram]

Empty Husk, here. I just voted for Obama by absentee ballot. Voted for virtually all other Republicans. I think Obama has run a good campaign against Hillary and McCain, especially when they were losing and grasping at any negative straw they could -- he remained, for the most part, above it all.

As to his book and his website, Obama has put a lot of information out there. Republicans have claimed that "we don't know the real Obama." I disagree with that, based on what has been dug up about him. The problem that Yelram and others so breathlessly assert is not that the information is out there, but that they cannot believe that more voters have not chosen to believe that the information is sufficient to warrant an anti-Obama vote.

All of the Ayers information is out there. All of the Haladi (or whatever his name is) information is out there. All of the Wright information is out there.

Yelram and other believe that this information is more than sufficient to justify a McCain vote; obviously, if the polls are anyway near to being accurate, the majority of Americans do not find that information disqualifying. Yelram cannot conceive how people cannot agree that this information is so bad. That is the problem -- his problem. He chooses to believe that this information is disqualifying and anyone who does not agree must be stupid. As he asserts, "How can you not see it?"

It is not that I can't see it; it is that I see it and I do not find it significant. I am fearful of Obama and how my taxes will be increased (because I am in the bracket that he says will get increases), but, out of the two major-party candidates, I think Obama has the better chance of putting this country back on its feet, both domestically and in the eyes of other countries.

I certainly respect your vote, and if Obama hadnt picked Biden as VP, I may have been doing the same thing as you. I just have paid attention to Obama, and I no longer trust him. This election is not about issues, its about trust. Its the people who trust Obama, VS the people who dont.

[kid_vidrio]

I certainly respect your vote, and if Obama hadnt picked Biden as VP, I may have been doing the same thing as you. I just have paid attention to Obama, and I no longer trust him. This election is not about issues, its about trust. Its the people who trust Obama, VS the people who dont.
I know John McCain, and he can't be trusted.
You don't know BO, but he seems like he can't be trusted.
Based on your logic, you HAVE to vote for BO.

And how did you get from 'Biden is my problem' to 'it's about trust?' They seem wholly unrelated in the context.
I can't imagine the maelstrom that is your brain. Medicate much?

[Yelram]

I know John McCain, and he can't be trusted.
You don't know BO, but he seems like he can't be trusted.
Based on your logic, you HAVE to vote for BO.

And how did you get from 'Biden is my problem' to 'it's about trust?' They seem wholly unrelated in the context.
I can't imagine the maelstrom that is your brain. Medicate much?

So you think you can trust Biden? Seriously, until this election you never paid attention to politics did you?

[kid_vidrio]

So you think you can trust Biden? Seriously, until this election you never paid attention to politics did you?
Nope. What are politics? Until this erection, I didn't even own a computer. I have no idea who that elstavon guy was that argued politics with you through the last election, you know, when you and Mr Awesome were so convinced that W was the second coming?

[Bill Paxton]

Nope. What are politics? Until this erection, I didn't even own a computer. I have no idea who that elstavon guy was that argued politics with you through the last election, you know, when you and Mr Awesome were so convinced that W was the second coming?


Mr. Awesome was one of the greatest posters on this message board. He had me convinced Bush was awesome. Im still not so sure he isn't.

[Yelram]

Nope. What are politics? Until this erection, I didn't even own a computer. I have no idea who that elstavon guy was that argued politics with you through the last election, you know, when you and Mr Awesome were so convinced that W was the second coming?

I had no idea it was you Elstavon, you seem so much more youthful with kid in your name. And yet you trust Biden? I'd say if Obama gets shot, Biden will be somehwere behind it.

[atoms]

Rejoining the thread I started and just read all the weekends additions.

Too bad that the subject of this thread has mostly been abandoned....but all discussions have a life of their own. I was really looking for what some on the right thought of this campaign.....not the politics, but the way the two campaigns were run.

Yelram.....when you get into a bitch match with Archangel you don't do your beliefs any good. I found Morfin's post to be one of the few interesting posts on here....but I also enjoyed your response, because it matched his tone. I felt that you two fundamentally disagreed, but could still talk (unlike the conversations between you and Archangel or you and Stax). I also found it interesting that, while not ultimately successful, it sounded like Obama's charisma and ability to lead may have had some sway on you. And frankly I think those things are important....maybe even more important than all this "is it socialism or not B.S." Because the reality is that the difference between McCain and Obama to our pocketbooks is probably a few percent at best. We still will have a tax system that tries to tax the rich more than the poor. We still will have some social programs (Medicare, social security, peace corps) while not being a socialist state. Will the candidate on the left push us a little more to the left....yes. Will the candidate on the right push us a little more to the right.....maybe (though it seems to be a bit of a pendulum and hard to believe we are not as far to the right as we are going to go right now). Those type of issues do matter. In 2000, they were the dominate issues. But now is a time where we need leadership, both in the troubled times at home, and in our place in the world abroad.

Taking this campaign as a metaphor for how they will run the country I think Mr. Obama has done a far superior job to Mr. McCain. For those who talk about Obama's experience...yea it's an area of concern. But Mr. McCain has run far more campaigns than has Mr. Obama....yet it appears to me that Obama is running this more successfully. Therefore it is possible he might run this country more successfully.

Ok...enough of that. I have one last serious question for Yelram. I'm not the biggest Biden fan out there. But who should Obama have picked? He seems to be a different breed of democrat (at least then the democrat's have had recently). And I don't really mean that on a policy standpoint, but on a leadership/motivational/presidential standpoint. And I never did see a good fit for him. To my way of thinking, Hillary definitely wasn't it. Biden seems as good as any, just by being probably one of the most informed Democrats on foreign policy. And I think he was a good foot soldier. Am I excited by him....no. Is he a bit further left then I like....yes. But I see where he filled a hole in Obama's resume. So....who do you think would have been better?

[Yelram]

Rejoining the thread I started and just read all the weekends additions.

Too bad that the subject of this thread has mostly been abandoned....but all discussions have a life of their own. I was really looking for what some on the right thought of this campaign.....not the politics, but the way the two campaigns were run.

Yelram.....when you get into a bitch match with Archangel you don't do your beliefs any good. I found Morfin's post to be one of the few interesting posts on here....but I also enjoyed your response, because it matched his tone. I felt that you two fundamentally disagreed, but could still talk (unlike the conversations between you and Archangel or you and Stax). I also found it interesting that, while not ultimately successful, it sounded like Obama's charisma and ability to lead may have had some sway on you. And frankly I think those things are important....maybe even more important than all this "is it socialism or not B.S." Because the reality is that the difference between McCain and Obama to our pocketbooks is probably a few percent at best. We still will have a tax system that tries to tax the rich more than the poor. We still will have some social programs (Medicare, social security, peace corps) while not being a socialist state. Will the candidate on the left push us a little more to the left....yes. Will the candidate on the right push us a little more to the right.....maybe (though it seems to be a bit of a pendulum and hard to believe we are not as far to the right as we are going to go right now). Those type of issues do matter. In 2000, they were the dominate issues. But now is a time where we need leadership, both in the troubled times at home, and in our place in the world abroad.

Taking this campaign as a metaphor for how they will run the country I think Mr. Obama has done a far superior job to Mr. McCain. For those who talk about Obama's experience...yea it's an area of concern. But Mr. McCain has run far more campaigns than has Mr. Obama....yet it appears to me that Obama is running this more successfully. Therefore it is possible he might run this country more successfully.

Ok...enough of that. I have one last serious question for Yelram. I'm not the biggest Biden fan out there. But who should Obama have picked? He seems to be a different breed of democrat (at least then the democrat's have had recently). And I don't really mean that on a policy standpoint, but on a leadership/motivational/presidential standpoint. And I never did see a good fit for him. To my way of thinking, Hillary definitely wasn't it. Biden seems as good as any, just by being probably one of the most informed Democrats on foreign policy. And I think he was a good foot soldier. Am I excited by him....no. Is he a bit further left then I like....yes. But I see where he filled a hole in Obama's resume. So....who do you think would have been better?

Theres a few people I would have liked to see, some of them are going to suprise you, because they lean as far left as Obama does. Like Kucinich, or Ron Paul. Someone more to the libertarian side of the spectrum would have been alot more reassuring that he isnt going to turn us into even more of a mindless bureaucracy. I was certainly glad he didnt pick Hillary, but he totally lost me with Biden. I think it definitely helps his experience credentials, but hurts his "reformer" points.

[Feng]

I'd say if Obama gets shot, Biden will be somehwere behind it.

Sounds like you and your bigoted neo-nazi Republican white-power friends already have a plan in the works... Classy...

Oh well if you guys try to shoot Obama, he will be a martyr (allah-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la)

[Yelram]

Sounds like you and your bigoted neo-nazi Republican white-power friends already have a plan in the works... Classy...

Oh well if you guys try to shoot Obama, he will be a martyr (allah-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la)

Yes, the republicans, are suddenly neo-nazis. How old are you?

[atoms]

Yelram....first off....I love it when you respond without so much anger.

While someone like that is interesting.......I think you run into a problem when the person you pick for your number 2 is more of a reformer than you are, at least on a policy stand-point. And particularly when their ideas, while maybe not totally opposed to your own, still run enough different that they start to generate friction in your campaign.

When I heard about Biden....my initial reaction was what an uninspired choice, in what had been such an inspirational campaign. But the more I think about it....the more that might be the point. Biden could do good in the traditional VP picking reasons....filled a hole in the resume and could be the attack dog of the ticket, letting the candidate look more presidential. But more important he was willing to drink the Obama cool-aid and give the Obama message. He was not going to upstage Obama, yet from a resume standpoint (aside from what you may feel about him politically) he was unassailable as a possible president.

One last thought....if the people who think Obama is going to turn from everything he says when he becomes president.....well he'll only be here for 4 years then. If Obama tries to implement this but it all comes out wrong, and he just can't manage it.....that is a bit of a Carter scenario. I think both those things are possible...but I hope to God they don't come to pass. But I feel that Obama has the best chance to be a true reformer. And I think this simply because I think he desires it. He senses that the country desires it. (note....I also would give these same attributes to McCain). But I also think he has the potential charisma to get enough of the country to drink his "cool-aid" to pull it off. And that's the one fundamental I think McCain lacks. The whole "cool-aid" metaphor comes from Jim Jones. Leading a group of people to kill themselves. But I believe great leaders can get people to do positive things too through leadership. Kennedy and the peace corps and moon program. And Reagan, in instilling a belief in the greatness of this country that had been lacking for a half generation.

Ok...one more last point. Hopefully some of the people you were hoping for will end up in the administration....where they will actually do something. I think it makes more sense to have dissenting voices in your administration then in your campaign.

[Feng]

Yes, the republicans, are suddenly neo-nazis. How old are you?

19. Why? What does my age have to do with anything? I didn't say republicans were neo-nazis, I said you were a neo-nazi republican... Wern't you pictured on CNN as one of the two guys who wanted to shoot Obama?

[Yelram]

19. Why? What does my age have to do with anything? I didn't say republicans were neo-nazis, I said you were a neo-nazi republican... Wern't you pictured on CNN as one of the two guys who wanted to shoot Obama?

I dont need to talk to you anymore. I could tell you were of nursing age. You act like you know anything about this country, and you dont. Have you ever had a job? Filed for taxes? Even balanced a checkbook?

[Archangel]

Yes, Yelram. Because you yourself limit your comments exclusively to things, people and issues you have come into personal contact with.

How many times have you been to Iraq?

[Feng]

I dont need to talk to you anymore. I could tell you were of nursing age. You act like you know anything about this country, and you dont. Have you ever had a job? Filed for taxes? Even balanced a checkbook?

Are those the qualifications for being an real American?

[Yelram]

Yes, Yelram. Because you yourself limit your comments exclusively to things, people and issues you have come into personal contact with.

How many times have you been to Iraq?

Atleast a dozen, maybe a whole bakers dozen, maybe 3 dozen. Can we say irrelevant? Most people in the country havent been to Iraq, that doesnt mean we arent allowed to have an informed opinion. Someone who hasnt ever filed a tax return, or balanced their own checkbook, speaks to far more than whether they were in contact with it or not. Douchebag. Have you resorted to not making arguments, and instead acting like a spoiled little child? Oh wait, you arent acting.

[Archangel]

Yelram's view of society seems to be based on Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

[Willam]

Are those the qualifications for being an real American?


No, but it certainly helps.

[Yelram]

Are those the qualifications for being an adult?

Fixed for truth.

[Archangel]

Atleast a dozen, maybe a whole bakers dozen, maybe 3 dozen. Can we say irrelevant? Most people in the country havent been to Iraq, that doesnt mean we arent allowed to have an informed opinion. Someone who hasnt ever filed a tax return, or balanced their own checkbook, speaks to far more than whether they were in contact with it or not. Douchebag. Have you resorted to not making arguments, and instead acting like a spoiled little child? Oh wait, you arent acting.

So if you haven't had first hand experience of Iraq, you're allowed to say that Iraq was the greatest stroke of military genius since Austerlitz, but if you haven't filed a tax return, you're not allowed to say that billionaires don't need tax cuts.


Got it.

[Feng]

Fixed for truth.

Well, I do know that even Claydon thinks you're a dumbshit - and that's saying a lot about the kind of person you are! :p

[Pax Britannia]

Yelram's view of society seems to be based on Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

Funny you should mention Starship Troopers. I copy and pasted this post from a political blog once. It compares the story of Starship Troopers to the war on terror and I think it's pretty interesting.

In Starship Troopers, a civilian target on Earth is attacked by a foreign, poorly understood enemy. If you recall in the movie, after the attack, one of the newsreels mentions that some people believed that the bug's attack was incited by Earth incursions in bug territory. Yet this little tid bit is ignored, and the overwhelming jingoistic response is to 'take the war to the enemy'! Earth then invades the bug's solar system, and finds themselves in for a much more difficult struggle then they originally anticipated. The end result, after much bloodshed is 'victory' of a sort...but only after the Earth forces have basically become as morally depraved (if not more so) as the bugs they came to fight in the first place. The ending sums this up pretty well when Neil Patrick Harris' character says of the brain bug: "it's afraid!" to jubilant cheers...

[Archangel]

What's even more chilling, in the book, is what the war does to civilian society.

[Yelram]

So if you haven't had first hand experience of Iraq, you're allowed to say that Iraq was the greatest stroke of military genius since Austerlitz, but if you haven't filed a tax return, you're not allowed to say that billionaires don't need tax cuts.


Got it.

Well see, it seems your idea of debate, and argument, goes a little different than most. If I say Iraq is a successful military campaign, and you cant prove otherwise, than i'm justified. Just as, if you were to say "Millionaires dont need their own money, we can take it and give it to someone who deserves it", I can show how absolutely ridiculous that assumption is, because millionaires employ people, and buy high end goods that people work to produce and sell. Your arguments are based on emotion, and philosophy, and arent grounded in reason. Now on top of that, as a business owner, I can tell you first hand that taking money from the rich hurts everyone. As a person who has many friends in military service, I can tell you that the stories I hear from Iraq go something like "dont believe the media, they arent telling you the full story". When I hear people like PIZZ saying there isnt electric in Iraq now, and I can show, using his own information sources, that this is bullshit, that is an argument. When you make some dogmatic, knee-jerk, emoticon reaction, I tend to get testy.

[Archangel]

So philosphy isn't grounded in reason?

[Yelram]

Well, I do know that even Claydon thinks you're a dumbshit - and that's saying a lot about the kind of person you are! :p

Did you ever think that maybe its because I disagree with him every once in awhile? I remember arguing with him about McCain being a horrible pick for republican presidential nominee, when he was running around all happy about it. And I have yet to hear him call me a dumbshit.

[Yelram]

So philosphy isn't grounded in reason?

Nope. Not the kind of reason necessary for the operation of a government.

[fuldstændigamok]

Did you ever think that maybe its because I disagree with him every once in awhile? I remember arguing with him about McCain being a horrible pick for republican presidential nominee, when he was running around all happy about it. And I have yet to hear him call me a dumbshit.

Everybody calls you a dumbshit, the fact that you don't remember him calling you a dumbshit is only because you have lost track of it.

[Archangel]

Hegel and Kant just told Yelram to go fuck himself.

[Yelram]

Hegel and Kant just told Yelram to go fuck himself.
Wow all of those great German philosophers, AND YOU STILL ELECTED HITLER. Guess back to philosophizing.

[Archangel]

Wow all of those great German philosophers, AND YOU STILL ELECTED HITLER. Guess back to philosophizing.

Yeah, because that had nothing to do with the French basically fucking up every move of the German moderates.

Sort of like what you guys did in Iran...

[fuldstændigamok]

Hey, stop blaming us for everything that is wrong in your dumb country!

[Archangel]

Yeah, Poincaré was such a smooth operator.

[fuldstændigamok]

Well, with a name like that...you can't ask him to be logical now, can you?

[Archangel]

Well, with a name like that...you can't ask him to be logical now, can you?

Actually, Raymond's cousin Henri Poincaré was one of the greatest French mathematicians of the 19th century...

[fuldstændigamok]

French irony at its greatest.

[Yelram]

Yeah, because that had nothing to do with the French basically fucking up every move of the German moderates.

Sort of like what you guys did in Iran...

You mean in the late 70s? With Carter?
When this guy was national security advisor?


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:S2Ljm1b1mEJnTM:http://ics.nccu.edu.tw/nea/pics/scholar/Brzezinski_Zbigniew.jpg
http://www.nysun.com/national/despite-criticism-obama-stands-by-adviser/62534/

The one Obama is using as an advisor?

[taters]

Wow all of those great German philosophers, AND YOU STILL ELECTED HITLER. Guess back to philosophizing.

They didnt exactly 'elect' him, if history serves (Arch can probably clear more of this up). He kinda 'legally coup'ed his way into power.

Hmm, that sounds familiar. Isnt there a current world leader who did something to that extent, only in a different and far less violent (at first) way?

[Yelram]

They didnt exactly 'elect' him, if history serves (Arch can probably clear more of this up). He kinda 'legally coup'ed his way into power.

Hmm, that sounds familiar. Isnt there a current world leader who did something to that extent, only in a different and far less violent (at first) way?
And who is that? Because I've never seen the votes counted in Florida, and Gore come out ahead. We should of just hand recounted, the four most democratic counties in the state right? Because that would be the fair way.(/sarcasm) I was just wondering today if Gore had won, if he would have served more than one term.