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Da Raider
11-05-2008, 02:27 PM
You shouldn't need to hire a team of lawyers to run for Congress.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/129852.html

Those of you voting in Louisiana or Connecticut this week won't have the option of voting for Libertarian Party candidate Bob Barr for president. In both states, Barr's campaign insists it had more than enough signatures to put his name on the ballot. But in Louisiana, the courts determined that Barr's campaign missed the filing deadline. That was in part because state offices were closed (http://blog.bobbarr2008.com/2008/09/27/appellate-court-removes-barr-from-louisiana-ballot/) the week of the deadline, due to Hurricane Gustav. No matter. A federal court determined it would be too expensive to reprint the state ballots to include Barr's name.

In Connecticut, state officials initially said the Barr campaign came up about 500 names short of the 7,500 signatures required to put Barr's name on the ballot. They later acknowledged that they had made an additional error. Barr was only 321 names shy of the minimum. The state then admitted that state officials had actually lost 119 pages of signatures—almost certainly enough to put Barr over the top. Nevertheless, a U.S. District Court judge ruled (http://blogs.courant.com/on_background/2008/09/bob-barr-fails-to-get-place-on.html) that Barr would not be on the ballot, citing testimony from Connecticut officials that it would be "nearly impossible" to reprint the ballots to include him.

Meanwhile, in Texas (http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2008/09/16/bob_barr_lawsuit.html), the tables were turned. Both the Republican and Democratic parties somehow missed that state's deadline to include Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) and Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) on the Texas ballot. Barr's campaign sued, noting the equal protection problems with allowing the two major parties to skirt campaign rules while holding third party candidates to the letter of the law. Barr was right—Obama and McCain should have been kept off the Texas ballot (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/national/stories/092408dnpolbarr.a4c90d35.html). But Barr's suit was dismissed by the Texas Supreme Court without comment. Apparently, the Democratic and Republican parties are, to borrow a now-tired phrase, "too big to fail." They're allowed to break the rules.

Bob Barr has no chance of winning the election. But regardless of what you may think of his politics, or that of third-party candidates like Ralph Nader or Chuck Baldwin, this system is rigged. The two major parties have effectively cemented their grip on power by creating laws that make it virtually impossible for upstarts to compete with them. They have done with campaign laws what federal business regulations tend to do in the private sector—protect the behemoth, entrenched dinosaurs that dominate the industry by making it too expensive and difficult for anyone to challenge them.

In addition to ballot access laws, consider campaign finance rules. In his recent special "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics," (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pu6cT6ICQQ) ABC News reporter John Stossel profiled Ada Fisher, a woman attempting a low-budget, longshot run for Congress in North Carolina with a staff of volunteers. She found it impossible to comply with the election law without hiring a team of lawyers—which of course, she couldn't afford. Written in small print, single-spaced, Stossel found that the federal election code spans one-and-a-half football fields. Eventually, Fisher and her volunteer campaign treasurer were personally fined $10,000 by the FEC for filling late reports.

Stossel then cut to University of Missouri Professor Jeff Milyo, who ran an experiment in which he asked dozens of college-educated people to try to fill out various campaign finance forms and applications. Of the more than 200 people Milyo tested, Stossel reported, "every one of them violated the law." One participant added, "I'd rather not participate in the political process if it means I have to go through the nonsense I went through today."

That's exactly what the two major parties and the incumbents in Congress had in mind. Come up through their party structure, and you'll have a team of lawyers to help guide you through the process. Challenge them from the outside, and the laws they designed will cripple your candidacy.
Consider these two figures: Congress' approval rating right now (http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/gop-halves-democratic-lead-in-generic-ballot-2008-10-30.html) is a dismal 19 percent. Clearly, we aren't happy with the people who are governing us. Yet 90-95 percent of the incumbents running for re-election to Congress can expect to win on any given election night. Many run unopposed. Between gerrymandering their districts to ensure a friendly electorate, campaign finance legislation, debate rules that effectively bar third-party participants, onerous ballot access rules, and the privileges of office, the Democrats and Republicans have ensured that the vast majority of the country will chose only between one of two candidates this year—candidates who, when it comes right down to it, really aren't all that different.

The system we have now selects for the sorts of people who want to make a career of politics. If, in order to successfully run for high office, you have to spend years culling favors and working your way up through one of the two major parties, the winners in this game are going to be the party loyalists and power-hungry climbers who couldn't hack it in the private sector—frankly, the last personality type we want governing.
It ought to be much easier to run for office. As it is now, the first task of anyone challenging an incumbent for federal office is to raise enough money to hire a team of lawyers to ensure that they're complying with election laws. There's something sordid about that.

It's difficult enough to raise enough money to mount a credible challenge that overcomes the name recognition and other advantages of incumbency. Congress then continually adds to that the enormous costs of navigating more and more layers of an expensive and confusing web of legalese. Perversely, defenders of these complex laws then justify them under the guise of "getting the influence of money out of politics."
How clever of them. What they're really doing is ensuring that incumbents stay in office, and that one of the two same-ish major parties always remains in power.


That's one of the reasons I am so happy Prop 11 passed in CA.

hatepoppy
11-05-2008, 02:28 PM
voting - YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE! /bullshites

Le Goat
11-05-2008, 02:32 PM
Meanwhile, in Texas (http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2008/09/16/bob_barr_lawsuit.html), the tables were turned. Both the Republican and Democratic parties somehow missed that state's deadline to include Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) and Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) on the Texas ballot. Barr's campaign sued, noting the equal protection problems with allowing the two major parties to skirt campaign rules while holding third party candidates to the letter of the law. Barr was right—Obama and McCain should have been kept off the Texas ballot (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/national/stories/092408dnpolbarr.a4c90d35.html). But Barr's suit was dismissed by the Texas Supreme Court without comment. Apparently, the Democratic and Republican parties are, to borrow a now-tired phrase, "too big to fail." They're allowed to break the rules.


cant wait for Tater to come strolling in blaming Texas for each states bullshit.

rc113943
11-05-2008, 02:32 PM
yes we can! yes we can!

Stax
11-05-2008, 02:33 PM
Barr would've gotten MAYBE a couple hundredths of a percent, who the fuck cares? Surprise surprise, low level third party candidates with no chance at winning aren't going to get tens of thousands of dollars spent on them by the state to accomodate them.

hatepoppy
11-05-2008, 02:36 PM
its a rigged system. just by the fact that its an capitalist elective democracy. it works only because the people are too ignorant to realize it's a show.

Da Raider
11-05-2008, 02:37 PM
Barr would've gotten MAYBE a couple hundredths of a percent, who the fuck cares? Surprise surprise, low level third party candidates with no chance at winning aren't going to get tens of thousands of dollars spent on them by the state to accomodate them.

who cares? What about all of the people who would have liked to vote for a 3rd party candidate in LA or CT? And at the same time, those rules get brushed off in TX. Unbelievable.

Stax
11-05-2008, 02:39 PM
who cares? What about all of the people who would have liked to vote for a 3rd party candidate in LA or CT? And at the same time, those rules get brushed off in TX. Unbelievable.

No, it isn't. A vast many people would've had their electoral process hugely disrupted had the two clear main candidates been left on the ballot. The fact that the system is friendlier to candidates with a chance isn't the system institutionalizing parties, it's that people like those parties and the institution comes from the people.

freegood
11-05-2008, 02:48 PM
With all the BS Ron Paul went through, you guys are surprised? Both parties get together to make the rules. Both parties get the bulk of the government funding to set up the system.

Stax
11-05-2008, 02:49 PM
People at a wedding wait for the bride's mother to be seated. They don't give a shit about some guy she works with sitting back in the 18th row. Why? One is far more important to the outcome of the event, so one gets more leniency and support.

rc113943
11-05-2008, 02:53 PM
Yeah I believe the third parties are always going to be sideshows and distractions, unless a billionaire like Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, etc would decide to run for president on their own platform

Stax
11-05-2008, 02:55 PM
I'm not saying anything about 3rd parties, I'm saying things about parties of IMPORTANCE. I don't care who it is, the more likely you are to impact the election and draw broad support the more reasonable it is to expect support. There's a reason Alan Keyes didn't get to go to the debates, and it's because he does not represent a sufficient slice of voters to spend that kind of debate time on him.

Kerjack
11-05-2008, 02:57 PM
No, it isn't. A vast many people would've had their electoral process hugely disrupted had the two clear main candidates been left on the ballot. The fact that the system is friendlier to candidates with a chance isn't the system institutionalizing parties, it's that people like those parties and the institution comes from the people.


But that is only because of the way the system treats them. Ron Paul, Nader, Barr whoever would garner WAY more votes if the third party label didn't have a stigma that is supported by the system. Its not their views that is the kiss of death, its the label. How many times have you heard a variation of this "I don't want to waste my vote by voting third party"?

Stax
11-05-2008, 03:02 PM
But that is only because of the way the system treats them. Ron Paul, Nader, Barr whoever would garner WAY more votes if the third party label didn't have a stigma that is supported by the system. Its not their views that is the kiss of death, its the label. How many times have you heard a variation of this "I don't want to waste my vote by voting third party"?

Tons. Because they are right. Perot was the closest thing to a legitimate 3rd party, and hey hey with a little fighting he got into the debates (even when he stopped his campaign for a while). Nader never got above 5, did Paul even run this time, and Barr didn't break 1.

Kerjack
11-05-2008, 03:10 PM
Paul got 5% of the vote last I checked in my county and 3% of the state.

Stax
11-05-2008, 03:12 PM
Paul got 5% of the vote last I checked in my county and 3% of the state.

In Texas, his home state, right?

Kerjack
11-05-2008, 03:13 PM
Its smacks of the question 'Does Art imitate Life or does Life Imitate Art?'

In this case, I go with the latter.

Kerjack
11-05-2008, 03:13 PM
In Texas, his home state, right?

Montana

Stax
11-05-2008, 03:14 PM
Montana

My bad, thought you were from Texas for some reason. Fox has him at 2.1% in MT.

Kerjack
11-05-2008, 03:15 PM
Probably, last I checked was late last night.

Genius
11-05-2008, 03:19 PM
Of course this part of the system is rigged. The question is, is it worth breaking the entire system to fix it? And the answer is a resounding no.

hatepoppy
11-05-2008, 03:21 PM
people seem to think there was once many a party to be chosen from on a national level, and these two were just the strongest that survived and cornered the market. sure, it was a fairly organic route to where we are now, but it was designed to be that way. count on that shits.

vasili denisov
11-05-2008, 05:18 PM
How rigged is this system? Libertarians were on the ballot in fifty states in '96, forty-six this year. Nader's name was on close to an equivalent number. So, according to libertarians, the fact that they were on over 92% of the ballots indicates that the deck is stacked against third parties?

Running a party federally requires a huge organization, which can be considered a strong impediment to entry; an established party has an advantage over entrants due to size and connections, much as a large successful company has an advantage over new competitors entering the market. However, given that campaigns are run almost entirely by volunteers, advantages of a competitor's greater capital can be more easily neutralized in this market than in a private sector; examples would be Mike Huckabee who came close to beating McCain despite having an initial budget amounting to picnic napkins, and Barack Obama, our new intergalactic overlord, who beat the institutional pick, Ms. Clinton. Should there be a third-party candidate whose ideas gain wide currency, I don't see why they would be unable to make equal inroads.


Consider these two figures: Congress' approval rating right now (http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/gop-halves-democratic-lead-in-generic-ballot-2008-10-30.html) is a dismal 19 percent. Clearly, we aren't happy with the people who are governing us.

This suggests a dissatisfaction with the available solutions; it does not mean that the solutions are incompetent or corrupt. Most want quality government services and a low tax burden; there may be no viable solution to this. Congress' inability to provide one results in the disapproval, which any libertarian would fall under if they were unable to come up with a plan for this impossibility.