Guns for Africa

[Insomniac]

Now Arch will care about this story for other reasons, and everyone should be able to recognize it's a terrible tragedy for this girl, and in some part, for the human race, generally. But one line jumped out at me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7708169.stm


Stoning victim 'begged for mercy'

A young woman recently stoned to death in Somalia first pleaded for her life, a witness has told the BBC.

"Don't kill me, don't kill me," she said, according to the man who wanted to remain anonymous. A few minutes later, more than 50 men threw stones.

Human rights group Amnesty International says the victim was a 13-year-old girl who had been raped.

Initial reports had said she was a 23-year-old woman who had confessed to adultery before a Sharia court.

Numerous eye-witnesses say she was forced into a hole, buried up to her neck then pelted with stones until she died in front of more than 1,000 people last week.

...

The witness said people crowding round to see the execution said it was "awful".

"People were saying this was not good for Sharia law, this was not good for human rights, this was not good for anything."

But no-one tried to stop the Islamist officials, who were armed, the witness said. He said one boy was shot in the confusion.At the old forum (http://forum.gorillamask.net/showthread.php?t=29583), I stated my opinion of people who stand by and let innocents suffer as worse than the evil people themselves. I still feel that way. But in this case, I can't blame them, really I can't, because there was nothing they could have done to stop it except get shot.

But as much as people care about sending food to Africa, and condoms and mosquito nets, what's it really going to accomplish when the average person can't defend him or herself from what are essentially armed gangsters?

In a civilized society with a government that you can rely on (to some degree) to provide law and protection, gun control is reasonable. Only zealots argue private citizens need to be running around with assault rifles and RPGs. But in Africa, even those I wouldn't call unnecessary.

And maybe you'll call me crazy, but I think it gets to the whole issue of gun rights. People don't have a right to own guns, but they do have a right to be able to defend themselves. So long as there are strong and helpless people in Africa, all of the food in the world won't solve anything. And, when it comes to genocide and war, machetes are pretty efficient at killing all the people of a certain country, ethnic group, or religion.

If ordinary, normally peaceful people can present a significant threat to those trying to bully them, I think it would go a long way toward solving that place's problems.

[redsox39]

Once again, you right wing crazies are looking at this wrong. Islam is a religion of peace, and if they have some customs that are strange to us, so what? Who are we to judge? If their religous documents set up certain punishments for certain crimes, why does the Almighty USA get to step in and condemn them for following a religion that has be in the culture for centuries?

being fucking sarcastic

[Archangel]

The combination of African despondency and Muslim retardedness is a dangerous one.

[Insomniac]

Well, the article isn't really about Islam.

[redsox39]

Well, the article isn't really about Islam.

Of Course, Sharia law has nothing to do with Muslims!

WTF are you talking about?

Maybe if they would have bulldozed a wall on top of her or excuted them in a soccer stadium that would have been better?

[Insomniac]

Sorry, this topic isn't really about Islam. If they would have stoned her because they thought an animal spirit had possessed her, it wouldn't change anything.

[redsox39]

Sorry, this topic isn't really about Islam. If they would have stoned her because they thought an animal spirit had possessed her, it wouldn't change anything.


So why did they stone her? Under what authority did they stone her? Where did they get the idea that her punishment was to be stoning?
And why won't you see any Middle Eastern or Southern Asia country condemn this?

If they were a bunch of Othodox Jews, would she have been stoned?

[Insomniac]

You are a fucking idiot. The point is that even within the article, the people there at the moment of the crime disapproved of what was going on but were powerless to stop it due to the monopolization of violent force wielded by the Islamists; and perhaps this monopolization could be ended by giving common people weapons to defend themselves and therefore the power to meaningfully express their disapproval, thereby saving the next girl's life.

Do I need to state it more plainly or would you like to grind your axe against Islam some more, ignoring everything else?

[redsox39]

No, I got your point about people not being able to help...and when good men let evil happen and such, trust, there we are on the same page. But one annoynomous guy who said the people who "crowded around to see" said it was awful.

My point is, once again, is it evil? Why would the people want to try to stop it?

[Insomniac]

People crowd around to see awful things. Public executions and train wrecks are of the same kind.

And from the article: "Convicting a girl of 13 for adultery would be illegal under Islamic law."

Not to mention common decency.

[redsox39]

And you know what, fuck it, I guess I do have an Axe to grind with Islam, especially Sharia law. And everytime I have to hear about this shit, and then have everyone make excuses and tell me what is "isn't about" so they don't look bigoted, makes me fell they are part of the problem as well.

The entire continent of Africa has war mongerers using traditional Islamic practices to oppress and murder millions of innocent people.

But it is about those evil men, and not the Billion who support them in their silence.

And yes, I come from a pretty knowledgeable place in this. In Omaha, we have the largest Sudanese refugee population in the US. And one of the things my wife's family does is help them adjust to US life. Talk to one of them for 10 Minutes about what the problem is over there. It isn't lack of guns, I promise you.

[redsox39]

People crowd around to see awful things. Public executions and train wrecks are of the same kind.

And from the article: "Convicting a girl of 13 for adultery would be illegal under Islamic law."

Not to mention common decency.

For Adultery yes, for having relations with man who is not her family member, and becoming unclean and ruining her family name is not.

[Morfin]

These dicks need to get out of the Stone Age.

If they had guns, why the fuck are 50 guys throwing stones at her? Just shoot her.

[redsox39]

These dicks need to get out of the Stone Age.

If they had guns, why the fuck are 50 guys throwing stones at her? Just shoot her.

Exactly.
Maybe bullets are really expensive, and they can't be wasting them on 13 year old Whores! Besides, nothing says "I'm sorry for being raped" better than being pummeled to death with stones.

[Pake Boy]

Insomniac I have read your post at the start of this thread several times, but I still don't know what your point is? Is it just the sad disposition of these people to let this killing occur? Is it the point that all the aid in the world won't change the culture there which is so different than ours?

I think American foreign policy needs a re-check on priorities when it comes to sending aid abroad. We help countries that hate our guts and who don't appreciate our help and then on the other hand we have all these natural disasters ocurring on our own shores where the federal government could do much more to get our own people back on their feet. I don't understand it. We have starving people, homeless people, abused children.....yet we send billions of monies abroad. I don't get that.

[Archangel]

For some reason, I actually partly agree with redsox here: An American-style 2nd Amendment is not the solution in a region where 10-year-olds run around with AK-47s.

Arm everybody in Africa, where one tribe has been trying to kill another for centuries? Great idea. It would solve the overpopulation problem faster than AIDS, probably.


However, I also disagree: My earlier comment aside, this has nothing to do with Islam per se. 50 years ago, so-called "God-fearin' folk" in ostensibly the most advanced country on Earth beat and murdered their fellow Christians because they tried to exercise the very rights that their country's founding documents declared to be God-given to all men.
70 years ago, 80 million people - most of them Christians at least in name - in what was then arguably the most advanced civilisation in the world stood by and let 6 million innocent people be murdered by the government that they had elected.

So while I'm hardly a defender of the state of Muslims today, none of this can be blamed on Islam itself.

[redsox39]

And I am pretty sure we have condemned all of those actions and I think you and I both know that isn't going to happen (outside of Ireland) anymore.

As far as the Holocaust...it seems funny now...but until the invasions of other countries happened, I think people wanted Hitler to take care of the Jews...

Which is so weird. Outside of a few jokes here and there, I have never really noticed ANY anti-semite stuff here.

but Obviously, at one time, holy shit, I think I would have rather been a leper than a Jew!

[Pax Britannia]

The good news is if the population of Africa continues to decline through starvation, aids and war it will be easier for the Europeans to re-colonise the continent.

[redsox39]

did the Europeans pull out of Africa too soon due to politically correct pressure?

I think so.

The Brits did a good job with America...what happened in Africa?

[Pax Britannia]

did the Europeans pull out of Africa too soon due to politically correct pressure?

I think so.

The Brits did a good job with America...what happened in Africa?

The honest truth is that America had whites. Look at South Africa (a former British colony) it's the only country in Africa to do half decently and thats because they still have a sizeable amount of European settlers.

[redsox39]

eeeh...this should be good. Someone Tell Tater's about this...


It really hurts my soul to admit that I kind of agree with you.

Here comes the racist cries....

[Pax Britannia]

eeeh...this should be good. Someone Tell Tater's about this...


It really hurts my soul to admit that I kind of agree with you.

Here comes the racist cries....

I dont think it's so much to do with the race as the culture. We turned up in Africa and started carving our own borders into the place. Therefore settlers had a strong sense of boundaries and carried with them the spirit of European government.

Africans meanwhile found their lands seperated and a government imposed on them they couldnt possibly comprehend. So when we handed them democratic governments in the 1960's all they did was take their tribal warfare of old to a whole new level.

[freegood]

And you know what, fuck it, I guess I do have an Axe to grind with Islam, especially Sharia law. And everytime I have to hear about this shit, and then have everyone make excuses and tell me what is "isn't about" so they don't look bigoted, makes me fell they are part of the problem as well.

The entire continent of Africa has war mongerers using traditional Islamic practices to oppress and murder millions of innocent people.

But it is about those evil men, and not the Billion who support them in their silence.


Big wars in Ethiopia/Eritrea and Rwanda should tell you that it isn't entirely about Islamic war 'mongerers'.


And yes, I come from a pretty knowledgeable place in this. In Omaha, we have the largest Sudanese refugee population in the US. And one of the things my wife's family does is help them adjust to US life. Talk to one of them for 10 Minutes about what the problem is over there. It isn't lack of guns, I promise you.

Knowing people from one country in Africa doesn't mean you know about all Africans or how the fuck Somalia acts.

Nice job, Palin.

[Da Raider]

If there's one thing that would solve all of Africa's problems, it's definitely that they all need more AK-47's. The entire continent would be operating at peak efficiency in no time at all.

[redsox39]

Big wars in Ethiopia/Eritrea and Rwanda should tell you that it isn't entirely about Islamic war 'mongerers'.



Knowing people from one country in Africa doesn't mean you know about all Africans or how the fuck Somalia acts.

Nice job, Palin.


Wow, ok, Sorry, they 100% of the problem.

Last time I checked, the Warlords in Solmolia WERE Islamic Extremists though...

Sure, I am sure not all the bad things that go on it Africa are related to Islam, but a lot of them are. And Sharia Law is just ridiculous, and I will challenge anyone to defend it right here and now.

[Archetype]

Islam is a religion of peace,
For some it really is, like some of those characters on Sleeper Cell. Y'know, the fictional show about muslim terrorists?

[Insomniac]

For some reason, I actually partly agree with redsox here: An American-style 2nd Amendment is not the solution in a region where 10-year-olds run around with AK-47s.

But that's exactly the point, and the problem. The 10-year-olds didn't just stumble across some assault rifles and start running around together, they were abducted from their parents and conscripted into the local militias. But these are militias of the people, they're just gangs with higher ideology.

If the families were able to protect themselves, the kids wouldn't be running around anywhere, they'd be going to school.

[Pake Boy]

But that's exactly the point, and the problem. The 10-year-olds didn't just stumble across some assault rifles and start running around together, they were abducted from their parents and conscripted into the local militias. But these are militias of the people, they're just gangs with higher ideology.

If the families were able to protect themselves, the kids wouldn't be running around anywhere, they'd be going to school.

I think giving the families guns to protect themselves would be half the battle. I am sure the number of people without guns outnumber the ones with guns, but they choose not to do anything.

They need something deep inside themselves to tell them to fight back. The equipment (guns) is only part of the solution. I think their culture & religion prevents them from "rising to the occasion".

[slore]

More proof that all muslims need to be exterminated. Except for the sexy ones who will be my sex slaves. Im not talking about the hairy women either.

[Archangel]

Wow, you're like Hitler, only stupid and not convincing.

[slore]

Smart Hitler died. Unfortunately muslims havent all died. I hope to convince all here that muslims are better off dead. Except for sexy ones that will be converted.

[Archangel]

You know, when somebody's douche-baggery can put the board's resident Muslim hater on the side of the Muslims, it's a pretty good sign that the aforementioned douche-baggery is of sizable proportions.

[slore]

I acxtually like muslims. They are sexy and good in bed. Almost as good as Jewish guys.

[Claydon]

Guns no, Chinese made AK47s and the huge stock piles of the Russian versions are sold for $5-$10 in open air markets throughout africa.

[Insomniac]

But how many people in Africa don't have $5 to $10 to spend on weapons + bullets?

[Rover]

Obama's brother lives in Kenya on less than a dollar a month. Based on that sample size, I'm guessing not many.

[Claydon]

But how many people in Africa don't have $5 to $10 to spend on weapons + bullets?


Have you seen the "Lord of War" with Nicolas Cage. It was actually a really good movie, I watched it and was stunned how good it was.

[Claydon]

Obama's brother lives in Kenya on less than a dollar a month. Based on that sample size, I'm guessing not many.


Militia purchase the weapons and pass them around to their 'soldiers'.

[vasili denisov]

So long as there are strong and helpless people in Africa, all of the food in the world won't solve anything. And, when it comes to genocide and war, machetes are pretty efficient at killing all the people of a certain country, ethnic group, or religion.

If ordinary, normally peaceful people can present a significant threat to those trying to bully them, I think it would go a long way toward solving that place's problems.
There are two remedies you might be suggesting here: individual possession of guns would allow either for self-protection or protection of those persecuted by those with guns.

The claim that the distribution of guns, without a larger framework for stability, will deter violence towards those now with guns, I believe is a weak one.

In a context where the state has backed persecution in the United States, guns have been of little or no use; the most prominent example of this would be slave revolts; though the slaves acquired weapons and killed their masters, this did not deter other slave owners from perpetuating the institution. A runaway slave who kills a man in order to preserve his life will bring down the full resources of the law against him (there must be strong discouragement of any slave who commits such an act) without the legal protections expected of the context (a slave would not be allowed to claim self-defense).

Whether it even rises to the point of the legal process in Somalia if an individual uses a gun against injustice, whoever rules over such an area must make sure that such an act 1) does not become a deterrent 2) the individual is punished so as to deter anyone from committing a similar act. This is even more important in the context of Somalia, where the authourity of a clan is far more tenuous than that of the state. Things that give a state authourity - history, a long and established legal code, the regular distribution of services - are absent in Somalia, so all that is left to make the authourity of a particular group is force. Demonstration of force becomes the most visible claim of authourity, as well as the fact that the force of the ruling clan is far greater than that of any individual.