View Full Version : 8 yr old boy faces two counts of premeditated murder!
Alcestis
11-08-2008, 08:57 PM
I read this and felt ill.
www.msnbc.msn.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600105/)
ST. JOHNS, Ariz. - A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should have a gun and had taught him how to use firearms, the clergyman said Saturday.
The Rev. John Paul Sauter said the father, Vincent Romero, 29, wanted his son to learn how to hunt, while the boy's stepmother, Tiffany, suggested he have a BB gun.
Police say the boy used a 22.-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.
Romero was an avid hunter who taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, said Sauter, of St. Johns Catholic Church.
"He wanted to make sure the kid wasn't afraid of guns, knew how to handle it," the priest said. "He was just too young. ... That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal."
The boy, who faces two counts of premeditated murder, did not act on the spur of the moment, St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said.
"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said Saturday. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."
Psychological evaluation
On Friday, a judge ordered a psychological evaluation of the boy. Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone 8 or older.
The boy had no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services, said Apache County Attorney Brad Carlyon.
In a sign of the emotional and legal complexities of the case, police are pushing to have the boy tried as an adult even as they investigate possible abuse, Melnick said. If convicted as a minor, the boy could be sent to juvenile detention until he turns 18.
Police had responded to calls of domestic violence at the Romero home in the past, but authorities were searching records Saturday to determine when those calls were placed, Melnick said.
Melnick said officers arrived at Romero's home within minutes of the shooting Wednesday in St. Johns, which has a population of about 4,000 and is 170 miles northeast of Phoenix. They found one victim just outside the front door and the other dead in an upstairs room.
Romans had been renting a room at the Romero house, prosecutors said. Both men were employees of a construction company working at a power plant near St. Johns.
The boy went to a neighbor's house and said he "believed that his father was dead," Carlyon said.
‘He's scared’
Melnick said police got a confession, but the boy's attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.
"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."
Prosecutors aren't sure where the case is headed, Carlyon said.
"There's a ton of factors to be considered and weighed, including the juvenile's age," he said. "The counterbalance against that, the acts that he apparently committed."
FBI statistics show instances of children younger than 11 committing homicides are very rare. According to recent FBI supplementary homicide reports, there were at least three such cases each year in 2003, 2004 and 2005; there were at least 15 in 2002. More recent statistics weren't available, nor were details of the cases.
Earlier this year in Arizona, prosecutors in Cochise County filed first-degree murder charges against a 12-year-old boy accused of killing his mother.
Romero had full custody of the child. The boy's biological mother visited St. Johns during the weekend from Mississippi and returned to Arizona after the shootings, Carlyon said.
Family members declined to speak on the record.
Brewer said the boy "seems to be in good spirits."
"He's scared," he said. "He's trying to be tough, but he's scared."
SilverBullet
11-08-2008, 09:35 PM
Death Row is what this kid needs.
Is it wrong to make an 8 year old your prison bitch?
SilverBullet
11-08-2008, 09:45 PM
Hey, he made his choice. What happens in prison....Well, it just sucks.
Insomniac
11-08-2008, 10:22 PM
I saw on the news they're looking into whether he was being abused.
Ethix
11-08-2008, 10:38 PM
Kids should be allowed to kill their parents.
Here's why:
They were crazy because the parents were crazy - Nature
or
The parents raised them to be murderers (abuse and whatnot) - Nuture
Either way, it's the parents fault.
Or I'm completely wrong and there's a third option I hadn't considered.....but I doubt it.
Mustard
11-08-2008, 10:43 PM
GIVE THE KID THE GAS CHAMBER!!!
debbert
11-09-2008, 02:44 AM
either way kid or parent's fault, that's sad...
Archangel
11-09-2008, 03:40 AM
Yeah, but Americans need teh gunz to protect themselves!
Kerjack
11-09-2008, 12:45 PM
Hell yeah, American 8 year olds are like little Chuckys waiting to go off, kill and teabag their victims. I want a p90 and a flamethrower at least.
Ethix
11-09-2008, 03:04 PM
If you could be in a 5-year old's body with a p90 200-round barrel-drum on full auto.....
How do you put a barrel-drum on a p90? It loads from the top.
G-Bus
11-09-2008, 03:13 PM
Try him as an adult?
wut.
smith42687
11-09-2008, 03:29 PM
Yeah, but Americans need teh gunz to protect themselves!
Now if teh dad and teh friend had gunz... they'd be alive today. lol
janois
11-09-2008, 03:32 PM
Yeah, but Americans need teh gunz to protect themselves!
Not really. Most Americans want (rather than need) guns to hunt and/or make their cocks seem bigger.
Da Raider
11-09-2008, 04:28 PM
trying an 8 year old child as an adult lacks of logic, reasoning, and consistency.
Night Hawk
11-09-2008, 04:47 PM
trying an 8 year old child as an adult lacks of logic, reasoning, and consistency.
so does this sentence, but i get what ur sayin...
Ethix
11-09-2008, 04:49 PM
Suck my hairy little salty cracky balls. :cool:
Silenced as well!
I'm reaaaaaaaaaaaad to go mMUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTHAAAA PHHHHHHHHHUUUKKKKKKKKKKAAAAAAAASSSS!!??!
Wut Now?
WUyt? NOw CHOWDAH?!!
That's an airsoft gun.
Morfin
11-09-2008, 05:33 PM
This has nothing to do with gun control and everything to do with parents being ungodly stupid. I was raised in a hunting family and guns were kept in the house. I first went duck hunting and fired a gun when I was five years old. I see no problem with teaching an 8 year-old how to fire a gun and how to carry a gun (boy, if there was one thing my father drilled into me was how to carry a shotgun safely).
The question here (and I am going on only the information from the article) is: How did an 8 year-old get access to the gun? If the parents failed to secure the guns in a place that an 8 year-old could not get them, and either failed to keep them unloaded or failed to secure the ammunition, well, then, while I won't say the father got what he deserved, he set up a scenario where this kind of thing could occur. The parents are the ones to blame for failing to secure the gun and ammunition -- not the child.
I find it absurd to prosecute this child, unless there is evidence of intent. I do not find it hard to believe that an 8 year-old has the ability to think that he's going to shoot his father and friend, but I don't believe an 8 year-old has the capacity to understand what it means to kill -- as in dead and never coming back.
White Rhino
11-09-2008, 05:58 PM
The father was a dumb ass for not keeping the gun in a locked safe. When you teach your son to be comfortable with guns you should also teach your kid to be afraid of guns and teach your son how to store guns safely while you are not using them for their intended purpose. Anyone that does not keep their gun in a locked safe at home is just asking for trouble.
Archangel
11-09-2008, 06:00 PM
Since when do people need to teach responsibility when dealing with something as inherently safe as loaded rifles?
White Rhino
11-09-2008, 06:06 PM
I think it is very rare for any parent to teach responsibility these days.
janois
11-09-2008, 06:07 PM
Since when do people need to teach responsibility when dealing with something as inherently safe as loaded rifles?
??????
I'm just missing the sarcasm.
Archangel
11-09-2008, 06:09 PM
It's called "sarcasm".
Insomniac
11-09-2008, 06:10 PM
I find it absurd to prosecute this child, unless there is evidence of intent. I do not find it hard to believe that an 8 year-old has the ability to think that he's going to shoot his father and friend, but I don't believe an 8 year-old has the capacity to understand what it means to kill -- as in dead and never coming back.
When was the last time you talked to an eight-year-old?
janois
11-09-2008, 06:10 PM
It's called "sarcasm".
I know. You were too fast for my edit.
Da Raider
11-09-2008, 06:12 PM
the state of AZ will throw the book at this kid. Try him as an adult and he'll be convicted too.
Morfin
11-09-2008, 07:36 PM
When was the last time you talked to an eight-year-old?
Well, my son is 11. I coach kids hockey teams. I deal with 8 year-olds on an almost-daily basis. 8 year-olds may understand what shooting someone with a gun involves, but I do not believe that they fully understand the permanent repercussions of their actions.
I gave the caveat in my original post that I had no information beyond what was in this article. Maybe this kid was abused. Let's even assume that he was. I believe the child understood that he could shoot the father and friend as a means of striking back. I have a hard time believing that the child understood that this could cause death, as opposed to something akin to an injury.
Pax Britannia
11-09-2008, 07:40 PM
I was 8 years old when my dad gave me my first gun and I understood fully that if I shot something living with the gun it would most likely kill it. So I dont fully buy into this "he didnt understand what he was doing" argument.
However I was taken out hunting (since I can remember) and understood the ramifications of shooting something before I even had a gun so maybe I cant use myself as an example.
Daydreamer
11-09-2008, 07:46 PM
the state of AZ will throw the book at this kid. Try him as an adult and he'll be convicted too.
They'd have to put a booster seat in the electric chair for him.
Morfin
11-09-2008, 07:52 PM
I was 8 years old when my dad gave me my first gun and I understood fully that if I shot something living with the gun it would most likely kill it. So I dont fully buy into this "he didnt understand what he was doing" argument.
However I was taken out hunting (since I can remember) and understood the ramifications of shooting something before I even had a gun so maybe I cant use myself as an example.
I'm with ya, Pax. You were taught that; I was taught that. But if you've got a yahoo not teaching that, not teaching proper gun respect; and who is too stupid to lock up the guns and ammo, that kids may not understand that.
Archangel
11-09-2008, 07:54 PM
Well, my son is 11. I coach kids hockey teams. I deal with 8 year-olds on an almost-daily basis. 8 year-olds may understand what shooting someone with a gun involves, but I do not believe that they fully understand the permanent repercussions of their actions.
I gave the caveat in my original post that I had no information beyond what was in this article. Maybe this kid was abused. Let's even assume that he was. I believe the child understood that he could shoot the father and friend as a means of striking back. I have a hard time believing that the child understood that this could cause death, as opposed to something akin to an injury.
So...
Does this mean that you shouldn't have deadly weapons around the house if you a) have a child of an age in which it is unable to understand the consequences of its actions, especially those causing death; and b) you are too fucking stupid to teach it some bloody responsibility and respect for a deadly firearm?
Also, shouldn't all of this go without saying?
Pax Britannia
11-09-2008, 07:54 PM
I'm with ya, Pax. You were taught that; I was taught that. But if you've got a yahoo not teaching that, not teaching proper gun respect; and who is too stupid to lock up the guns and ammo, that kids may not understand that.
Well I guess the lesson here might be: Teach your child the consequences of firing a gun before you give him one.
Otherwise he shoots you and your best friend and gets off on a technicality.
freegood
11-09-2008, 07:55 PM
I was 8 years old when my dad gave me my first gun and I understood fully that if I shot something living with the gun it would most likely kill it. So I dont fully buy into this "he didnt understand what he was doing" argument.
However I was taken out hunting (since I can remember) and understood the ramifications of shooting something before I even had a gun so maybe I cant use myself as an example.
What are the gun laws in Britain? I thought you couldn't get firearms cuz the queen likes bullying the people around...
Pax Britannia
11-09-2008, 07:57 PM
What are the gun laws in Britain? I thought you couldn't get firearms cuz the queen likes bullying the people around...
We cant have handguns, replica guns or fully automatic guns. Apart from that you can have anything you want.
I'm saving up for an AR-16.
Morfin
11-09-2008, 08:00 PM
This is what scares me most about guns in American society: Too many idiots with no education about guns, their handling, and safety.
The only way that this case gets worse is if they send this kid off to a juvie jail and turn him into a career criminal. Get him counseling and some love and maybe, just maybe, this kid might turn out okay.
One last thought. To the "friend" who got shot: You should have chosen your friends better and not hung around with an idiot who lets his kids have access to guns and ammo. Your bad.
Archangel
11-09-2008, 08:02 PM
This is what scares me most about guns in American society: Too many idiots
That would have sufficed, you know.
Morfin
11-09-2008, 08:04 PM
Go to bed, Arch. You're up past your bedtime.
Archangel
11-09-2008, 08:04 PM
We cant have handguns, replica guns or fully automatic guns. Apart from that you can have anything you want.
I'm saving up for an AR-16.
*15.
Here, it's an absolute bitch to get a licence, but once I do, after my master's, one of these sweet babies will be mine.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/picture-6-3.png
Pax Britannia
11-09-2008, 08:06 PM
It's a Heckler and Koch Jim. But not as we know it.
taters
11-09-2008, 10:27 PM
So is it pretty unilateral that everyone, if for different reasons, thinks this kid should not be prosecuted?
Next thing you know theyll be arresting newborns for sexual assaulting their mothers vagina's during child birth.
Sentencing guidelines are no longer mandatory, so the prosecutor in this case needs to be taken outside and beaten with a sack of cacti.
Nature's Folly
11-09-2008, 11:26 PM
Well done junior. Well done.
Archangel
11-10-2008, 07:47 AM
Um, dumbfuck, it's "estoy aprendiendo".
Your English is bad enough, stop raping other languages, as well.
Alcestis
11-10-2008, 10:11 AM
Update...
www.msnbc.msn.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600105/)
ST. JOHNS, Ariz. - An 8-year-old Arizona boy was due in court on Monday to face charges in the shooting deaths of his father and a friend.
The appearance comes on the same day the third-grader's father will be buried. Police said the boy has confessed to planning and shooting 29-year-old Vincent Romero and his co-worker Timothy Romans at their home northeast of Phoenix last Wednesday.
St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said this morning on NBC's "Today" show that authorities remained puzzled about a motive. He said there was no record of any abuse at home, or problems at school.
Video included with this link, and it also mentions that this child's father was recently remarried in September and he just had a visit from his mother the weekend prior to the shootings.
Morfin
11-10-2008, 12:25 PM
I'm sick of you Euro-pussies thinking there are too many guns in the hands of idiots. Where's your proof? That's what I wanna know.
'Bama-LSU aftermath turns deadly
EVERGREEN, Ala. (AP) -- Authorities say an argument over Saturday's Alabama-LSU football game led to the shooting deaths of a couple at a home in southern Alabama.
Prosecutors identified the victims as Dennis and Donna Smith of Brewton. The shooting happened about 7 p.m. Saturday at the home of Michael Williams in the rural community of Owassa.
Williams was arrested and charged with two counts of murder.
Investigators told the Press-Register newspaper in Mobile that Dennis Smith, an LSU fan, called Williams, an Alabama fan, after Alabama's 27-21 overtime win and an argument ensued.
The Smiths went to Williams home. Investigators said Smith had a pistol and Williams had a shotgun and fired. Donna Smith was a relative of Williams' girlfriend.Link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/football/ncaa/11/10/slaying.ap/index.html)
America: Don't come here unarmed.
Archangel
11-10-2008, 01:33 PM
It's like giving every retard in special ed class a match and then wondering how the fire happened.
I have been shooting .22+ caliber weapons since I was 6 and I haven't killed anyone in WEEKS.
You guys are fucking stupid.
Candycane
11-10-2008, 02:26 PM
Not really. Most Americans want (rather than need) guns to hunt and/or make their cocks seem bigger.
I'm fine with not having a cock, and I hate guns. But in "defense" of parents in general..... You try your best if you're not crack head parents , to raise you child with morals and values. But you can't be on your kid 27/7. I keep a close eye on my children but they go to school and are exposed to things and people that I have no control over. I ask them about their day and listen to them, but if they wanted to lie to me, they could. Obviously this kid needs massive amounts of help, and that might not even do it, to make him "normal".
This should be in Politics and Contro. because a woman told me today this happened because we elected Obama as prez.
You know...we're being judged and all.
Insomniac
11-30-2008, 01:53 AM
Well, my son is 11. I coach kids hockey teams. I deal with 8 year-olds on an almost-daily basis. 8 year-olds may understand what shooting someone with a gun involves, but I do not believe that they fully understand the permanent repercussions of their actions.
I gave the caveat in my original post that I had no information beyond what was in this article. Maybe this kid was abused. Let's even assume that he was. I believe the child understood that he could shoot the father and friend as a means of striking back. I have a hard time believing that the child understood that this could cause death, as opposed to something akin to an injury.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but reading this doesn't incline me to agree with you. Maybe 1,000 is just an arbitrary number, but considering how he went about it and afterward, I say he made a reasoned decision if not a good one and had some understanding of the repercussions. And I say he deserves some sort of punishment as opposed to just counseling. So in response to tater, no, it's not unilateral agreement.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/3532306/Boy-killed-father-after-1000-smacks.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/3532306/Boy-killed-father-after-1000-smacks.html)
Boy 'killed father after 1,000 smacks'
An eight-year-old US boy accused of murdering his father and a family friend kept a tally of his parents' smackings, vowing that the 1,000th time would be the last, police believe.
By Tom Leonard in New York
Last Updated: 11:17PM GMT 27 Nov 2008
The unnamed boy allegedly shot dead his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, their lodger, at the family home in St Johns, Arizona, with a .22 rifle as they were coming home from work at a local power plant.
The double murder on Nov 5 shocked the US, with investigators initially struggling to find any motive.
However, according to police records reported by the Arizona Republic, the boy "is believed to have made ledgers and/or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions" if his father and stepmother continued to smack him.
According to the police records, the boy told a Child Protective Services official that "when he reached one thousand spankings . . . that would be his limit. [The boy] kept a tally of his spankings on a piece of paper."
Despite his age, relatives suspected the boy immediately in the shootings. His grandfather told investigators: "If any 8-year-old was capable of doing this, [the boy] was", and the child's grandmother added: "I knew this was going to happen, they were too hard on [him]."
The boy told police he was smacked the day beforethe shootings for failing to finish schoolwork.
Records indicate the boy had no history of psychiatric care and was not on any medication.
Police say he gave conflicting accounts about the shootings, initially saying he discovered the bodies when he returned home from school.
He later changed his story, admitting he shot each man twice to end their suffering after they had been shot by an unknown assailant.
In an interview whose contents was later released by police, the boy admitted he been angry with his father after the latter asked his stepmother to smack him for not bringing some schoolwork home.
At the end of the interview, he buried his head in his jacket. Asked by an officer what he was thinking, he replied: "I'm going to go to juvie."
OpiateKitty
11-30-2008, 02:02 AM
Yeah, but Americans need teh gunz to protect themselves!
Now if teh dad and teh friend had gunz... they'd be alive today. lol
Why would anyone take what you say seriously, when you clearly lack any knowledge of the English language? Learn to spell.
willydong
11-30-2008, 02:05 AM
the child is 8, counseling it is and thx, young fella', for knocking off the ignorant fecking adults who raised thee thus far (may the state have better luck!)
OpiateKitty
11-30-2008, 02:08 AM
The kid is 8 for fucks sake. and god only knows what these pervs probably did to the poor kid.
Archangel
11-30-2008, 06:33 AM
Yeah, but Americans need teh gunz to protect themselves!
Now if teh dad and teh friend had gunz... they'd be alive today. lol
Why would anyone take what you say seriously, when you clearly lack any knowledge of the English language? Learn to spell.
Thou appearest to be unfamiliar with certain varieties of internet-speak.
If this kid shot his dad and some other guy because he was being abused, then this kid is the absolute shit and should immediately be placed into the US military to be trained to be the elite killer that he no doubt is. Other 8 year olds get abused and they get anorexia or they grow up to bugger other kids. But not this cold-hearted little bastard. Fucking right.