GM on their last legs

[Archangel]

This does not bode well for employment rates in the Midwest.

LINK (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/general-motors-is-facing-bankruptcy-within-months-1001509.html)


General Motors, the largest car maker in the US, which celebrated its 100th anniversary this year, said it will be bankrupt within months unless it gets government money to tide it over during the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression of the 1930s.


The company has called off merger talks with its smaller rival Chrysler in order to concentrate on more urgent internal cost-cutting and on lobbying for a rescue from the US government.

With sales slumping across the world, GM's chief executive, Rick Wagoner, said it had burnt through $6.9bn (£4.4bn) in the three months to the end of September and had drawn on the last of its credit lines from its banks. With just $16.2bn left in the bank, and about $12bn of that needed as a cushion to fund its day-to-day operations, a day of reckoning is now within sight.

And GM didn't attempt to hide that fact. "Even if GM implements the planned operating actions that are substantially within its control, its estimated liquidity during the remainder of 2008 will approach the minimum amount necessary to operate its business," it said.

"Looking into the first two quarters of 2009, even with its planned actions, the company's estimated liquidity will fall significantly short of that amount unless economic and automotive industry conditions significantly improve, it receives substantial proceeds from asset sales, takes more aggressive working capital initiatives, gains access to capital markets and other private sources of funding, receives government funding under one or more current or future programmes, or some combination of the foregoing."

GM shares fell 9.2 per cent after being suspended pending the delayed announcement of its results yesterday.

"The third quarter was especially challenging for the auto industry," Mr Wagoner said. "Consumer spending, which represents close to 70 per cent of the US economy, fell dramatically, and the abrupt closure of credit markets created a downward spiral in vehicle sales."

Even those customers who might have felt confident enough to buy a car were denied financing, or found the cost of financing prohibitive in many cases, he added.

Mr Wagoner said those who suggest GM should be allowed to fail do not understand the knock-on consequences of bankruptcy, which would be felt well beyond Detroit, rippling through suppliers in 50 states. "The impact would be devastating for the US economy. I read the pundits, and I suspect these are the guys who said let Lehman Brothers go, too, and we see the impact that had."

GM sold 2.1 million vehicles worldwide in the third quarter, down 11 per cent on the same period last year, with western Europe sales suffering as hard as the US, and signs of new weakness in emerging markets. The company had a net loss of $2.5bn for the period, and revenue was $37.9bn, down from $43.7bn.

Mr Wagoner went to Capitol Hill on Thursday night – along with the bosses of Ford, Alan Mulally, and Chrysler, Bob Nardelli, and the United Auto Workers union leader, Ron Gettelfinger – to meet Democrat leaders and plead for federal aid. Congress has already voted them $25bn in loans to fund production of new low-emission vehicles, and the Big Three automakers are hoping for a further $25bn in bridge loans to see them through the downturn.

Although Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House of Representatives, and the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, said the meeting had been constructive, they offered no explicit guarantees of help.

The question of what to do about the auto industry will be an early test of Barack Obama's presidency and his approach to economic and employment issues. The industry directly employs about 355,000 American workers, and it says that, through related industries that are dependent on auto manufacturing and sales, it supports about another 4.5 million jobs. Additionally, the three Detroit firms provide health care to around 2 million Americans, and pay pension benefits to 775,000 retirees or their survivors.

Over the past few months, the trio have considered a variety of merger combinations that would reshape the Detroit-based US car industry and allow them to slash costs. Most recently, GM has been in talks to buy Chrysler, but yesterday it said consideration of a strategic acquisition would be "set aside" to focus on "immediate liquidity challenges".

Chrysler is also haemorrhaging cash, and its chief executive rushed out a statement in response to the GM announcement. "We are significantly challenged by today's economic environment and by the automotive industry's unprecedented downturn," Mr Nardelli said. "As an independent company, we will continue to explore multiple strategic alliances or partnerships as we investigate growth opportunities around the world that would aid in our return to profitability."

Analysts had been sceptical about the benefits of putting GM and Chrysler together, saying that the disruption could be more damaging than the cost savings, even if the pair could find enough cash to write the necessary redundancy cheques.

Ford is also suffering badly, it was clear yesterday. The company, which raised cash in 2006 by mortgaging most of its assets, including the iconic blue oval logo, has enough cash to last through next year, but it reported a third-quarter loss of $129m and said it would cut 10 per cent of its white-collar staff.

"We continue to take fast and decisive action implementing ourplan and responding to the rapidly changing business environment,"said Mr Mulally.

Ford has been slashing production, particularly of its gas-guzzling pick-up trucks, which have fallen out of favour among US drivers since fuel prices rose.



I remember some hack in the Chicago Tribune 8-9 years ago ridiculing European auto makers for their "matchboxes". Well, even though all car manufacturers are going through a tough stretch tight now, our gay little matchbox makers are making (albeit much) less of a profit, not losing billions hand over fist, and putting literally millions of jobs at risk as a consequence.

I guess it all worked as long as people actually believed that putting a 1950s-tech V8 into a covered wagon was the height of car building. Funny how that works.

[comicfan]

It is also not good for the Canadian economy as we have a large number of individuals working in the automotive sector. Hopefully they will get some kind of bail out to keep them going, without affecting too much the work force.

[Pax Britannia]

I guess it all worked as long as people actually believed that putting a 1950s-tech V8 into a covered wagon was the height of car building. Funny how that works.

Have you seen the new episode of Top Gear yet? It seems in their death throws their actually producing some good cars.

[Archangel]

Bail out or no bail out, they're about 10 years behind, tech-wise (no, Sirius radios do NOT count as automotive tech), and they're still building mostly shit cars that nobody in their right mind would want to buy.

The only positive impulses come from GM's European and Australian marques (Opel, Vauxhall, Holden), but they alone can't keep that behemoth afloat.

[comicfan]

Oh I agree completely. When I was last in Europe, it really blew my mind the number of "nice cars" are on the roads. Did not see many non-worthy cars on the road! It seems europeans seem to take a bit more pride in the cars they drive than north america.

[Archangel]

Have you seen the new episode of Top Gear yet? It seems in their death throws their actually producing some good cars.

The problem is that in the segments in which they admittedly do build good cars, other people build better ones. The Vette is brilliant, but it's still not better than a Porsche or a Skyline. Certain Cadillacs aren't half bad, but would you take them over a Jag or a BMW? Exactly.
I'm thinking of getting a used CTS because it's a lot of car for the money and they're cheaper than dirt used (which says a lot about the confidence people have in them), but if I had the money to buy a new car in that class, I'd even buy a Lexus before considering it.

[Archangel]

Oh I agree completely. When I was last in Europe, it really blew my mind the number of "nice cars" are on the roads. Did not see many non-worthy cars on the road! It seems europeans seem to take a bit more pride in the cars they drive than north america.

Well, there is a lot of shit here, too, for example every single model built by Peugeot.

But if one of my mates actually bought something with a live rear axle, we'd laugh him out of the fucking pub.

[Pax Britannia]

Well, there is a lot of shit here, too, for example every single model built by Peugeot.

But if one of my mates actually bought something with a live rear axle, we'd laugh him out of the fucking pub.

I was just about to make that point. Can you imagine walking into a Cadillac dealership and buying a car? I cant. People would be sneering at you all the drive home.

The irony being of course that Ford is very popular in Europe. I guess what they did right was let people build cars for the European market and not try and shove 6 litre engined tanks down our throats.

[comicfan]

It makes you wonder why companies like Opel or Vauxhall has not been able to get into the north american market, especially now with the market the way it is.

[Archangel]

I think that it speaks volumes for both the management skills of FoMoCo USA and the tastes of the American car buyer that Ford Europe at present build 5 cars which are all amongst the best in their class, in the fucking world (Fiesta, Focus Mk II, Mondeo, C-Max, S-Max), AND NOT ONE OF THEM is sold in the US, while none of the crap they build in America is sold here.

[Pax Britannia]

Car insurance must be insanely cheap in America. If I wanted to insure a 2.0litre car i'd be looking at £4000 a year minimum.

[Archangel]

I don't think they sell 2-litre cars over there. I know Merc and BMW don't.

[Pax Britannia]

I blame cheap oil.

[Archangel]

The thing is that any modern 2-litre car outperforms the shit out of most of the engines they sell there...

[Claydon]

Let GM die.

They have been shoving piles of shit down the collective throats of the US consumer and of course the vast majority of the fucks in this country said "(CLAP CLAP CLAP) OH MARTHA LOOK, A 3 TON STRAIGHT 8 GM SUBURBAN FOR DRIVING IN THE CITY AT 10MPG!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Pax Britannia]

The thing is that any modern 2-litre car outperforms the shit out of most of the engines they sell there...

Thats because we use a little thing called engine tuning.

For those of you who havent heard of this. It's about increasing the efficiency of an engine to get more power out of it rather than simply increasing the size.

[Archangel]

What I don't get is that the Mk I Focus sold very well in the US for what was basically a Euro hatchback.

And yet, when the far better Mk II came along, it was like the brass decided, "hey, why even bother? These people buy Explorers, for fuck's sake".


It baffles the mind...

[Claydon]

What I don't get is that the Mk I Focus sold very well in the US for what was basically a Euro hatchback.

And yet, when the far better Mk II came along, it was like the brass decided, "hey, why even bother? These people buy Explorers, for fuck's sake".


It baffles the mind...


No it doesn't, Detroit management is some of the most short sighted people in the history of the industrial world and when it is cheaper to make shit on the same lines as your trucks and it increases your profit margin significantly why bother. Just spend a billion on ads and the dumb fucks will come running begging to go into debt to buy your worthless shit.

[Archangel]

Let GM die.

They have been shoving piles of shit down the collective throats of the US consumer and of course the vast majority of the fucks in this country said "(CLAP CLAP CLAP) OH MARTHA LOOK, A 3 TON STRAIGHT 8 GM SUBURBAN FOR DRIVING IN THE CITY AT 10MPG!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I'm all for industrial darwinism; however, do you have any idea what the death of GM would do to your economy, especially the job market?

[Claydon]

I'm all for industrial darwinism; however, do you have any idea what the death of GM would do to your economy, especially the job market?


Perhaps we need a really rude awakening in this country to demonstrate beyond a resonable doubt to most of the fools here that we have a total lack of leadership both politically and in business. Obama may be the new messiah, but we still have pelosi and reid..........we are truly doomed.

[STDSkillz]

I'm all for industrial darwinism; however, do you have any idea what the death of GM would do to your economy, especially the job market?

What's the saying? "What's good for GM is good for America." Maybe? I'm not sure.

But yeah, the government would bail GM out before they went completely (chapter 7) bankrupt.

[Claydon]

I mean its not like GM really employs people here anymore, most of their shit is made in South Korea, China, Mexico and some in Canada.

[Insomniac]

I'm all for industrial darwinism; however, do you have any idea what the death of GM would do to your economy, especially the job market?

We'd deserve it, and throwing money at them to continue sucking is just putting off the inevitable.

[Angry Ass Messican Dude]

American trucks are awesome.

[Archangel]

The funny thing is that Americans CAN produce excellent cars: BMW Z4, Mercedes ML, Honda Accord...

So between retards running the companies and retards running the unions, the undoubted skill of the American worker has been totally wasted.

[Claydon]

American trucks are awesome.


You will note I did not mock the trucks. I was mostly focusing on SUVs and sedans. My father has driven nothing but Ford F250/350s for the last 15 years. He beats the ever loving shit out of those things and puts 350,000 miles on them in just a few years.

[Angry Ass Messican Dude]

6.4 Liter Powerstroke Diesel with 350 HP and 650 ft. pounds of torque. That is technology so eat it.

[Insomniac]

The funny thing is that Americans CAN produce excellent cars: BMW Z4, Mercedes ML, Honda Accord...

So between retards running the companies and retards running the unions, the undoubted skill of the American worker has been totally wasted.

In the North. In the South, the foreign companies are doing just fine with their non-union workforce.

[Archangel]

6.4 Liter Powerstroke Diesel with 350 HP and 650 ft. pounds of torque. That is technology so eat it.

VW's 5-litre V10 turbodiesel puts up similar numbers, you know.

[Angry Ass Messican Dude]

VW's 5-litre V10 turbodiesel puts up similar numbers, you know.


does it pull 24,600 lbs? on only 8 cylinders?

[Archangel]

It may have more cylinders, but it's also 20% smaller. And at 310hp and 550lb ft, I'm pretty sure that the top of the line TDI Touareg can pull a lot.


Actually, how much does a 747 weigh? Probably more than 24,600lbs.

05zRyoBbcfI

[Claydon]

It may have more cylinders, but it's also 20% smaller. And at 310hp and 550lb ft, I'm pretty sure that the top of the line TDI Touareg can pull a lot.


Actually, how much does a 747 weigh? Probably more than 24,600lbs.

05zRyoBbcfI


ummm more like 300000 pounds+

[Archangel]

So that would be a "yes", then?

[Angry Ass Messican Dude]

Lol, if you think a F450 can't do that .

[URFloorMatt]

I mean its not like GM really employs people here anymore, most of their shit is made in South Korea, China, Mexico and some in Canada.

What about maintenance and sales? Many of these people aren't employed by GM directly, since car dealerships generally operate as franchises, but they would number in the millions and GM's bankruptcy would cost all of them their jobs. Presumably it would decimate American auto-racing too. If GM went bankrupt, we'd be in the next great depression.

It seems to me the Obama administration should bail out the auto industry, but only after imposing new and stricter standards for mileage and emissions. Force the auto industry headfirst into the plug-in hybrid market. To some degree, GM was already moving in this direction anyway.

[Archangel]

Of course it can.


But can it also transport people in perfect comfort and luxury at 150mph on the Autobahn?

[Angry Ass Messican Dude]

Max gross load is figured by how much weight a truck can pull up the steepest moutain grade without a dangerous loss of speed.

So flat surfaces are nothing.

[Claydon]

What about maintenance and sales? Many of these people aren't employed by GM directly, since car dealerships generally operate as franchises, but they would number in the millions and GM's bankruptcy would cost all of them their jobs. Presumably it would decimate American auto-racing too. If GM went bankrupt, we'd be in the next great depression.

It seems to me the Obama administration should bail out the auto industry, but only after imposing new and stricter standards for mileage and emissions. Force the auto industry headfirst into the plug-in hybrid market. To some degree, GM was already moving in this direction anyway.


But pelosi said she was doing everything she could to save the earth, ie no drilling for oil offshore. The car is a major source of pollution killing the loving and indigenious people of....somewhere.

[Archangel]

What about maintenance and sales? Many of these people aren't employed by GM directly, since car dealerships generally operate as franchises, but they would number in the millions. If GM went bankrupt, we'd be in the next great depression.

It seems to me the Obama administration should bail out the auto industry, but only after imposing new and stricter standards for mileage and emissions. Force the auto industry headfirst into the plug-in hybrid market. To some degree, GM was already moving in this direction anyway.

Hybrids are a stop-gap, and mostly great marketing by Toyota. If GM put all their money into hybrids now, the crash in 10 years would be even worse. Apart from the fact that the production of hybrid engines is dirty fucking work, from mining to transport, the problem is that the weight of the extra components counter-balances the reduced fuel consumption.

What you want is to make normal Otto and Diesel engines ever more efficient until someone finally comes up with a cheap way to make and store hydrogen.

[Ghostrider]

The problem is that in the segments in which they admittedly do build good cars, other people build better ones. The Vette is brilliant, but it's still not better than a Porsche or a Skyline. Certain Cadillacs aren't half bad, but would you take them over a Jag or a BMW? Exactly.
I'm thinking of getting a used CTS because it's a lot of car for the money and they're cheaper than dirt used (which says a lot about the confidence people have in them), but if I had the money to buy a new car in that class, I'd even buy a Lexus before considering it.

Yes I would take a Caddy over a Poorly ford POS Jag, or a Over priced BMW. Why do you cite them and then suggest a Lexus for yourself.

BMW, Mercedes October Sales Drop as Credit Crunch Saps Demand
By Chris Reiter
Nov. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BMW%3AGY) and Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz Cars unit, the world's top two makers of luxury cars, sold a combined 31,000 fewer vehicles last month as the credit crunch discouraged large purchases by consumers.
BMW, which also owns the Mini and Rolls-Royce auto brands, said today that sales fell 8.3 percent to 113,005 cars and sport- utility vehicles from 123,300 vehicles a year earlier. Stuttgart, Germany-based Daimler said deliveries of Mercedes-Benz, Smart, and Maybach vehicles fell 18 percent to 93,800 from 114,600.
``Generally, we're feeling the effects of the poor market developments,'' while models nearing renewal are adding pressure, Verena Mueller (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Verena+Mueller&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), a spokeswoman for Mercedes-Benz, said in a telephone interview. Sales of the E-Class sedan fell 35 percent to 12,100 in advance of the introduction of a new version in March, even as the model kept its position atop the segment in Germany, she said.
Auto sales in the U.S., BMW's largest market and Mercedes's second-biggest, plummeted 32 percent in October to the lowest monthly total since January 1991. BMW scrapped (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BMW%3AGY) its 2008 profit target on Nov. 4, while Daimler slashed 1 billion euros ($1.28 billion) from its 2008 earnings forecast on Oct. 23. BMW plans to cut production by 65,000 cars and SUVs, while Mercedes is curtailing output by more than 45,000 vehicles.


P.S. GM never really liked hybrids either, that's why they waited and were left in the dust for it. The new two mode hybrid transmission is a much less expensive, but far better hybrid idea, the Volt is the best Idea I think. All electric power and the engine only generating power for those motors after 50 miles, add a solar roof, a small diesel and it would be perfect.

[Archangel]

Max gross load is figured by how much weight a truck can pull up the steepest moutain grade without a dangerous loss of speed.

So flat surfaces are nothing.

Why would you want to pull stuff up a mountain? And how often do you need that ability? I'd just call some pros with specialised equipment...

[Angry Ass Messican Dude]

Why would you want to pull stuff up a mountain? And how often do you need that ability? I'd just call some pros with specialised equipment...


Because you need to get bulldozers, or whatever up mountains, or what not. Or roads do go up mountains and stuff you know.

[Pax Britannia]

Yeah fuck the BMW M series. I need to pull a 747 up a mountain for fucks sake.

[Kerjack]

Why would you want to pull stuff up a mountain? And how often do you need that ability? I'd just call some pros with specialised equipment...

Well unless it comes in on a plane everything has to come into Flathead Valley thru mountain passes since we are located in the middle of the Rocky Mountains.

[Archangel]

Yes I would take a Caddy over a Poorly ford POS Jag, or a Over priced BMW. Why do you cite them and then suggest a Lexus for yourself.


You don't get it.

I'd never buy a Lexus if I had the money to buy a proper premium car, but I'd rather buy that than anything American.

And overpriced? Yeah, I guess, if you don't care much about not finding soda cans in your doors, or panel gaps you can see from space.


BMW, Mercedes October Sales Drop as Credit Crunch Saps Demand
By Chris Reiter
Nov. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BMW%3AGY) and Daimler AG's Mercedes-Benz Cars unit, the world's top two makers of luxury cars, sold a combined 31,000 fewer vehicles last month as the credit crunch discouraged large purchases by consumers.
BMW, which also owns the Mini and Rolls-Royce auto brands, said today that sales fell 8.3 percent to 113,005 cars and sport- utility vehicles from 123,300 vehicles a year earlier. Stuttgart, Germany-based Daimler said deliveries of Mercedes-Benz, Smart, and Maybach vehicles fell 18 percent to 93,800 from 114,600.
``Generally, we're feeling the effects of the poor market developments,'' while models nearing renewal are adding pressure, Verena Mueller (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Verena+Mueller&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), a spokeswoman for Mercedes-Benz, said in a telephone interview. Sales of the E-Class sedan fell 35 percent to 12,100 in advance of the introduction of a new version in March, even as the model kept its position atop the segment in Germany, she said.
Auto sales in the U.S., BMW's largest market and Mercedes's second-biggest, plummeted 32 percent in October to the lowest monthly total since January 1991. BMW scrapped (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BMW%3AGY) its 2008 profit target on Nov. 4, while Daimler slashed 1 billion euros ($1.28 billion) from its 2008 earnings forecast on Oct. 23. BMW plans to cut production by 65,000 cars and SUVs, while Mercedes is curtailing output by more than 45,000 vehicles.

Did you read my initial post?

even though all car manufacturers are going through a tough stretch tight now, our gay little matchbox makers are making (albeit much) less of a profit, not losing billions hand over fist

I never said we didn't have it rough, THESE DAYS. But Detroit's been fucking up for more than 20 years now.

[Claydon]

Why would you want to pull stuff up a mountain? And how often do you need that ability? I'd just call some pros with specialised equipment...


Ummmm well my Dad, leaves the San Fernando valley and has to take steep grades out of the valley with tons of shit (often times several tons) so yah...there.

[Ghostrider]

I have to say I have seen quite a few Citroen's AND I think they are quite crappy. I suppose you can thank Goshen for saving them.

[Archangel]

Because you need to get bulldozers, or whatever up mountains, or what not. Or roads do go up mountains and stuff you know.

Yes, but that's why we have construction workers. Who have the aforementioned specialised equipment.

I am the furthest bloody thing from a construction worker, and thus see no need for a car that I want to buy to be able to do construction. And I'm pretty sure that not everybody who buys a Ford F-Series is a builder himself.

[Kerjack]

Firewood is heavy and typically found in hard to reach places.

[Archangel]

I have to say I have seen quite a few Citroen's AND I think they are quite crappy. I suppose you can thank Goshen for saving them.
So you are trying to tell a German that the French build shit cars? What do you expect, an argument?
Well, there is a lot of shit here, too, for example every single model built by Peugeot.

Peugeot and Citroen are the same company, btw.

[Archangel]

Firewood is heavy and typically found in hard to reach places.

Um, natural gas doesn't weigh shit and comes to your house in a pipe.

[Kerjack]

1. Natural gas costs quite a bit here
2. The US is a rather large country and natural gas is not available everywhere. Including most of the out laying areas around these parts

[Archangel]

Shit, I can't find that Top Gear vid of Clarkson reviewing the F-150.

[Kerjack]

My sister just put in a stove to help offset the cost of propane. Which apparently a lot of people thought to do the same because the back order on most stoves where at least 4 months or tens of thousands of units.

[Poop Sailboat]

here's an idea.....




move the fuck out of montana.

[Angry Ass Messican Dude]

Shit, I can't find that Top Gear vid of Clarkson reviewing the F-150.


If he didn't load it full of shit and tow a camper off road then it's worthless.

[Kerjack]

here's an idea.....




move the fuck out of montana.


But hows can I do it without a truck?! Besides wood heat pwns. So cozy and love the smell.

[Pax Britannia]

Shit, I can't find that Top Gear vid of Clarkson reviewing the F-150.

http://px4.vidiac.com/ca5cedcd-7348-41a6-a7d7-989c00f5ce58.jpg (http://highperformancetrucks.com.vidiac.com/video/ca5cedcd-7348-41a6-a7d7-989c00f5ce58.htm)Click here to see Video (http://highperformancetrucks.com.vidiac.com/video/ca5cedcd-7348-41a6-a7d7-989c00f5ce58.htm)

[Archangel]

But that's the thing, isn't it.


America is pretty much the only country in the world where most of the rural population can afford to have cars: The rest of the car-buying world lives in cities, some posh limeys aside. And even then, "rural" in Europe or Japan means "more than 15 minutes from a city of 100,000 or more people".
So the fact is that nobody outside the US needs or wants a 25-foot dreadnaught pulling trees to one's house. That might be a priority to you, but nobody else gives a fuck. It's like trying to sell septic tanks to Manhattanites. However, if Honda build a 45-mpg nimble hatchback that is well made, a great many people around the world will be interested in it. It's the difference between reaching 100 million potential customers, or 1 billion.

[Kerjack]

Yeah I don't disagree with you. The funny thing is why the power is nice and everything you can get by with so much less. My dad has been farming all his life and has owned two pickups. A 72' Chevy (2wd) he bought in high school and a 73' Chevy (4wd) he bought a number of years later 2nd or 3rd hand. Even the grain and potato trucks have the same engine that the 73 chevy has. A simple Chevy small block.

My friends mom who is a rockhounder drove a 90 something 2wd f-150 for 10 years going into the most remote places in the rocky mountains that you can think of. Washed out roads, downed trees, stuff that makes your hair stand on edge yet the dang thing could handle it all seeing as she actually knew how to drive the darn thing.

So I do chuckle a little on the inside when I see someone buy some monstrous Dodge pickup with duals to pull a tiny little trailer or haul a few 2x4s to a job site while talking about how its needed

[taters]

Its what they fuckin get, playing greedy and not smart. Gas prices exploding? Lets continue to make cars that are gas guzzlers. Economy failing? Lets stuff the vehicles full of pointless crap to jack up the prices.

They would still have a modicum of support had they not abandoned American workers to foreign builders. Anyone who blames that on unions is a fucking retard and a liar, because union or no, the labor for those vehicles being built would be cheaper in the 3rd world regardless, unless we dropped minimum wage to 3 bucks an hour (before anyone recommends that, you should know the current minimum wage is FAR below the standard of living).

If we have to bail them out, we need to bring them back home. Why give our money to some company that no longer is even a moderately important labor source for our nation?

[Kerjack]

Seriously though, if they still made 93' Ford Exploders I buy one new in a heart beat. Well now that they got the paint thing figured out. Great rig.

[URFloorMatt]

Hybrids are a stop-gap, and mostly great marketing by Toyota. If GM put all their money into hybrids now, the crash in 10 years would be even worse. Apart from the fact that the production of hybrid engines is dirty fucking work, from mining to transport, the problem is that the weight of the extra components counter-balances the reduced fuel consumption.

What you want is to make normal Otto and Diesel engines ever more efficient until someone finally comes up with a cheap way to make and store hydrogen.

While I'll grant that mining for the battery components is dirty work, not even Al Gore thinks building a brand new hydrogen infrastructure in the U.S. is possible in ten years. Probably not even 20 years. Hydrogen is a pipe dream. Biodiesel is fool's errand that has quickly fallen out of favor because it is not efficient and requires starving most of the world to power our cars.

Plug-in hybrids like the Chevy Volt (and its predecessor the EV1) are the only viable alternative for the foreseeable future for reducing oil dependence responsibly. We may quickly get to a point where solar technology can supplement plug-in technology and make the energy savings really impressive, but for now the value of 40mi per charge is more than sufficient to seriously reduce emissions.

I'm not sure why you mentioned Toyota, unless you've confused the Prius with a plug-in hybrid. The Prius is not a plug-in hybrid yet, though we'll likely see one on the market by 2010 and you can convert a late model Prius to a plug-in hybrid for a few thousand dollars. Currently there are no plug-in hybrids on the market.

[Claydon]

or we could just get those 3 cyclinder diesel engines the europeans drive that get 60mpg.

just saying.

[Archangel]

Its what they fuckin get, playing greedy and not smart. Gas prices exploding? Lets continue to make cars that are gas guzzlers. Economy failing? Lets stuff the vehicles full of pointless crap to jack up the prices.

They would still have a modicum of support had they not abandoned American workers to foreign builders. Anyone who blames that on unions is a fucking retard and a liar, because union or no, the labor for those vehicles being built would be cheaper in the 3rd world regardless, unless we dropped minimum wage to 3 bucks an hour (before anyone recommends that, you should know the current minimum wage is FAR below the standard of living).

If we have to bail them out, we need to bring them back home. Why give our money to some company that no longer is even a moderately important labor source for our nation?

Oh come on. It's not just GM themselves, it's the hundreds of companies that are dependent on them - most of which are small-medium businesses that cannot just pack up and leave to Mexico or Indonesia. GM may not employ the legions of Michigan workers anymore, but everybody who makes anything from steel to plastics to rubber gaskets will be out of business if GM fail.

And yes, for all the incompetence of management, you can put part of the blame on the unions. It's the basic socialist premise that if you get paid no matter what, you won't do a very good job - banking tycoons writ small. American workers build Toyotas, which are the most reliable cars in the world, and BMWs, which are just about the best made: Why can't the union guys make a car where the wheels don't fall off and which doesn't lose value at supersonic speed?

While I'll grant that mining for the battery components is dirty work, not even Al Gore thinks building a brand new hydrogen infrastructure in the U.S. is possible in ten years. Probably not even 20 years. Hydrogen is a pipe dream. Biodiesel is fool's errand that has quickly fallen out of favor because it is not efficient and requires starving most of the world to power our cars.

I've never much cared for Al Gore's opinion, and I'm not about to start doing so now. And if current trends are any indicator, Germany will be at the forefront of the development (as with any engine type, except hybrids). Siemens are pretty far ahead of the curve when it comes to hydrogen fuel cells.


Plug-in hybrids like the Chevy Volt (and its predecessor the EV1) are the only viable alternative for the foreseeable future for reducing oil dependence responsibly. We may quickly get to a point where solar technology can supplement plug-in technology and make the energy savings really impressive, but for now the value of 40mi per charge is more than sufficient to seriously reduce emissions.

I'm not sure why you mentioned Toyota, unless you've confused the Prius with a plug-in hybrid. The Prius is not a plug-in hybrid yet, though we'll likely see one on the market by 2010 and you can convert a late model Prius to a plug-in hybrid for a few thousand dollars. Currently there are no plug-in hybrids on the market.

How does the Kool-Aid taste? What do even the best plug in hybrids get, 100mpg? VW mass produced an 80 mpg conventional turbodiesel 10 years ago, and will build the 250-mpg 1L from 2010 on, none of which require heavy-ass batteries.

Hybrids are window dressing for the same gullible Americans who used to believe that they built the best cars in the world; it's a marketing ploy used by the Japanese to go eco on an American market that knew nothing of modern diesels, nothing more.

[Archangel]

The obvious irony here being that I'll probably buy a used CTS, which is not a bad car (just not as good as the near-perfect competition) in two years or so, because it's breath-taking that you can get a large 250hp sports saloon with 30,000 miles on it for the same price as a VW Passat with the same number of miles, but half the hp and spec.

[Morfin]

HOLY FUCKING CHRIST! This was just this morning.

Zero?

GM stock spirals after analyst's grim projection

WASHINGTON – A key Wall Street analyst slashed his target price for General Motors Corp. shares to zero today, saying the company could run short of cash by December and that even with government aid, shareholders are likely to lose their investment.
Advertisement

“Even if GM is able to secure immediate U.S. government support, we believe that GM’s predicament has the potential to set in motion a sequence of events that would be bankruptcy-like,” said Deutsche Bank analyst Rod Lache, who lowered his rating on GM shares to “sell” from “hold.”

GM shares were down 24% to $3.32 shortly after 11 a.m.

Lache said GM’s U.S. cash could fall to $5 billion by December, which would not be enough to pay the supplier bills for U.S. operations that come due in January. He said that government aid would likely crowd out unsecured investors such as shareholders.
Link (http://www.freep.com/article/20081110/BUSINESS01/81110020)

Putting aside all of the GM workers, putting aside all of the GM suppliers and subsuppliers, you guys outside of the Detroit area cannot comprehend what this is doing to retirees, pensioners, and those with GM stock in their retirement funds.

Just over a year ago, GM's stock was at $39.00. Today, it is at $3.32. The number of people in this area with huge chunks of GM stocks is staggering. For those of you who are math-challenged, if you had $100,000 in GM stock one year ago, today, it is worth $8,500. Your outlook: "Welcome to Wal-Mart, have a nice day."

[}{arlequin]

sweet. maybe gm cars will be offloaded for pennies by december. my friends and i are planning on getting a buncha vettes and racing the shit out of them for a year until they fall apart.

as for hybrids, they're retarded. i don't think another avenue should be followed for engine manufacturers until you have fully exploited the existing routes. make more ultra efficient engines, gas and diesel. as it is seen in europe, there is lots more that can be had out of the current designs.

going headlong into hybrids while not fully exploiting what we already know is retarded. i'm not saying abandon it, i think we should be working/researching/prototyping that route as well, but it is clear there is still more to be had from 'regular' engines

[Tar Heel]

I read about this a week ago. they say 4 months at the current rate and they'll be bankrupt.

It's ok though, the US taxpayers will just bail them out.

[}{arlequin]

It's ok though, the US taxpayers will just bail them out.
well... obamanomics will make sure it's only certain ones who have a decent, middle income job, that will be doing the bailing

[hatepoppy]

burn, motherfucker. i wonder if they would be in such bad shape without labor unions. regardless of the poor business decisions that led them to build shit cars, theyre paying factory workers way too fucking much. i know people who are too retarded to piss standing up making $25/hr. fuckin broads come in w their nails too long to use power tools, get sent home by their foreman, and the foreman is written up by the union for discrimination. my own step mom worked at ford in chicago, and when her doc gave her a note that she had too bad arthritis (at 60) to run the guns, they paid here damn near $30/hr to sweep the factory floor.

as my step mom made good money at one of these types of factories (which basically got me out of tha got-damned hood @ 14), i know that they help some people. but the fact is, theyre (union workers) overpaid, underskilled, and underutilized. BUT! at least theyre ethnically diverse, right?

the fucking triangle shirtwaist fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_shirtwaist) was a hundred fucking years ago. before msnbc, before the internet, before jesse jackson. unions have far outlived their utility, and are a drain on the economy.

[TylerDurden]

sweet. maybe gm cars will be offloaded for pennies by december. my friends and i are planning on getting a buncha vettes and racing the shit out of them for a year until they fall apart.

as for hybrids, they're retarded. i don't think another avenue should be followed for engine manufacturers until you have fully exploited the existing routes. make more ultra efficient engines, gas and diesel. as it is seen in europe, there is lots more that can be had out of the current designs.

going headlong into hybrids while not fully exploiting what we already know is retarded. i'm not saying abandon it, i think we should be working/researching/prototyping that route as well, but it is clear there is still more to be had from 'regular' engines

100% correct. bmw has a hybrid vehicle, but it's hardly anything to write home about. as with almost anything else bmw is simply showing that they're the first to harness the ability and slap it onto one of their cars without it breaking immediately. it's a proof-of-concept, definitely not to be considered a refined method of vehicle fueling... yet.

the interesting thing in the midwest with the consumer's love of all things suv and ginormous is that it's become almost a status symbol, just as owning a lambo is. and just like owning a lambo owners aren't being envied, they're being laughed at. instead of "shit, that dude must have some money," it's "ahahahahahahaha, that guy's such a fucking toolbox... enjoy your lambo/hummer/gas-guzzling POS, dude... when i look at my bank statements i don't sigh when i see how much of my money i've spent on fuel." what needs to happen is an attitude adjustment.

at the moment gas in my area is $1.94/gallon, but that doesn't encourage me to drive more. on the contrary, it encourages me to drive less and make an attempt at hording that shit in a few extra storage containers for later.

diesel isn't dead. and until such a time as we have a reliable and efficient technology to move to it's time for those aforementioned cockalopes to suck it up, stop being whiny bitches, and admit the fact that they don't really need to drive an escalade when a civic/accord/camry would do.

[Kerjack]

Hmmm.. I'm tempted to try to scrounge up a $100 and buy. If I lose it, oh wells.

[Rover]

Hmmm.. I'm tempted to try to scrounge up a $100 and buy. If I lose it, oh wells.Ford is safer. They have enough of their own cash to last through next year. They lose less every quarter. And any bailout GM gets, they'll get, too. The last time I saw a price for Ford stock it was $2.02.

[Morfin]

burn, motherfucker. i wonder if they would be in such bad shape without labor unions. regardless of the poor business decisions that led them to build shit cars, theyre paying factory workers way too fucking much. i know people who are too retarded to piss standing up making $25/hr. fuckin broads come in w their nails too long to use power tools, get sent home by their foreman, and the foreman is written up by the union for discrimination. my own step mom worked at ford in chicago, and when her doc gave her a note that she had too bad arthritis (at 60) to run the guns, they paid here damn near $30/hr to sweep the factory floor.

as my step mom made good money at one of these types of factories (which basically got me out of tha got-damned hood @ 14), i know that they help some people. but the fact is, theyre (union workers) overpaid, underskilled, and underutilized. BUT! at least theyre ethnically diverse, right?

the fucking triangle shirtwaist fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_shirtwaist) was a hundred fucking years ago. before msnbc, before the internet, before jesse jackson. unions have far outlived their utility, and are a drain on the economy.

Nothing pissed me off more than the fact that I was working as an attorney for 4 years before I earned as much as a line worker at the Jefferson Chrysler plant I commuted past twice a day.

Unions have outlived their function. In the pre-OSHA days, they were necessary. Now, they are such a drag on business, not only financially, but in terms of changing a corporation's focus -- the unions and their status quo mentality have hindered efforts to change.

[Kerjack]

Ford is safer. They have enough of their own cash to last through next year. They lose less every quarter. And any bailout GM gets, they'll get, too. The last time I saw a price for Ford stock it was $2.02.

thx!

[Morfin]

While you're on e*Trade, you might wanna pick up some Circuit City stock. Just in case.

[CrazyCarl]

I got some letter about test driving a Ford and then I'd get 10 shares of Ford stock

[Morfin]

I got some letter about test driving a Ford and then I'd get 10 shares of Ford stock

Hey. $20.00 is nothing to sneeze at. I mean, $15.00. No. $10.00. Better hurry.

[TylerDurden]

unfortunately there's nothing that gm can do (aside from hands-and-knees begging) for their situation right now. the time and cost of taking a car from design concept to showroom floor is more than six months... more like a year. the volt will not be this company's financial saving grace, contrary to what some are spewing... it'll simply make would-be car owners of all types take a second look at GM.

i would say that two-thirds of this debacle sits in the hands of gm. as others have stated the company's overhead costs are ridiculous, thanks in large part to the continued use of outdated unions to handle their labor (thank god the i.t. industry knew unions were poison from the onset)... that's a third of the issue. look at bmw: their carolina plant doesn't use union labor. they pay less and get better quality out of those people; their operating expenses are much tidier and in the same country. not to mention the fucking build tolerances of these shitboxes. for all the kudos that top gear gives to american vehicles, they're spot-the-fuck-on in their assessment of build quality. everything is in the details and when the gap tolerances of the parts are big enough to cause rattle, vibration, etc. on a brand-new car... it's time to take a look at what's wrong. but no... it's been how long? and still ford/gm/etc. continue to crank out over-priced shit built by unskilled, overpaid, misallocated workers.

the next issue is that gm was part of the awful loop of "build crap vehicles > promote crap vehicles > build what the consumer wants (crap vehicles)". gm created the very issue that's now biting them in the fucking ass. they jumped on the suv bandwagon and nurtured the fuck out of it. a lot of sensible people saw the writing on the wall a long time ago, but what do we do when we're clamoring for the fuel-efficient, tuner-friendly stuff of europe from the same fucking manufacturers that are cramming gigantic suvs down our throats? but no, gm and ford gave the rest of the world efficiency and value instead of their own home-growns. mainly because everyone else was sucking from the bandwagon's cock. the voice of the sensible people was lost in the shuffle.

the third issue here is simply that the credit crisis is killing the economy. gm isn't to blame for this one directly. unfortunately if this crisis were any smaller in scale this would provide a wonderful wake-up call to gm. the message: stop building gas-guzzling, shit-quality, overpriced, pieces of shit built by uncaring-underqualified-overpaid workers.

unfortunately, gm is so rooted into the economy i fear its collapse will accelerate the economy's downward spiral.

[Kerjack]

I have a crazy idea. How about a car that you build for more then one year? You can make minor mechanical upgrades each year as you like just make sure they can attach to the same model/frame.

I don't need a new look, I would just love something with less miles and a warranty.

[Tar Heel]

GM is a perfect example of a large scale conglomerate corporation that was able to run a shitty organization with almost no future planning, push their inferior product on the market, and make money for the last 2 decades. They did this while almost every other auto maker in the world was doing the exact opposite, but were able to rely on the perceived buying power of the dollar and the American economy to make profit. They put all their eggs in one basket and got left in the dust by progressive automakers. I say let them die for being greedy bitches.

[Archangel]

Imagine if someone had said 40 years ago that GM would be bankrupt. It would have been like saying that Lehman Bros would run out of ca... uh, that Saudi Arabia would run out of sand.

Amazing how nothing's sacred anymore.

[The Dude]

GM is a perfect example of a large scale conglomerate corporation that was able to run a shitty organization with almost no future planning, push their inferior product on the market, and make money for the last 2 decades. They did this while almost every other auto maker in the world was doing the exact opposite, but were able to rely on the perceived buying power of the dollar and the American economy to make profit. They put all their eggs in one basket and got left in the dust by progressive automakers. I say let them die for being greedy bitches.


amen sister!


seriously though...rather than all of these bailouts I would prefer for companies to simply fail if they suck that much.

[TylerDurden]

Imagine if someone had said 40 years ago that GM would be bankrupt. It would have been like saying that Lehman Bros would run out of ca... uh, that Saudi Arabia would run out of sand.

Amazing how nothing's sacred anymore.

the more i think about it the more i believe shit like this is not only inevitable but required. this country used to turn out good, quality stuff. now... shit. we also need to start creating cars with the intent that they'll last ten or more years. buying a new car every two because you're tired of how it looks is horseshit. my cell phone automatically gets traded in every two, and quite honestly, that's all i require. what happened to finding a good, quality car you loved and not letting it go until it fell apart from old age?

competition and survival-of-the-fittest markets breed quality and value. if gm can't hang now, it's because their number's up after providing such shit products and not paying attention to the rest of the world (a reflection of the cavalier american attitude of the past eight years, no?). their bankruptcy is going to put a lot of people out of a job, but i'm not sure what's more depressing for those people: not having a steady paycheck or realizing that you essentially had a free ride because you possessed no actual skills per se. while the rest of us busted our ass in schools, payed our dues, and actually worked for our money auto manufacturers hired people who were going to get paid $30/hr regardless of quality of work. i'm no expert on unions, but it seems like the jig is up, the big-daddy spade has been played... time to pay the piper.

[}{arlequin]

amen sister!


seriously though...rather than all of these bailouts I would prefer for companies to simply fail if they suck that much.
darwinism works for me

[Morfin]

seriously though...rather than all of these bailouts I would prefer for companies to simply fail if they suck that much.

Quoted for truth.

Sincerely, and with much love,
Ayn Rand

[hatepoppy]

TEH CARS
TEH CARS
TEH CARS ARE ON FIYA
WE DONT NEED NO BAILOUT LET TEH MUTHAFUCKERS BURNZ!

[mongo]

this is a beautiful time to not be a baby boomer.

[hatepoppy]

this is a beautiful time to not be a baby boomer.
expand.

is it that its so great for us, or so shitty for pops?

[mongo]

in that, in being young, we still have time on our side if our current retirement goes tits up.

[TylerDurden]

expand.

is it that its so great for us, or so shitty for pops?

i'd imagine shitty for pops... his pension's about to go out the fucking window.

[hatepoppy]

we sould institute mandatory suicide @ 70.

how much cheaper would insurance be if all the old people were kicked out of the hospital beds and into the grave?

[Kerjack]

I don't think I can be that cruel. How about we just annex Australia and send them all there to fend for themselves?

[hatepoppy]

I don't think I can be that cruel. How about we just annex Australia and send them all there to fend for themselves?that's farrrr more cruel. kill em and put em out of everyone's misery.

[TylerDurden]

I don't think I can be that cruel. How about we just annex Australia and send them all there to fend for themselves?

novel and original idea, good sir.

[Pax Britannia]

I don't think I can be that cruel. How about we just annex Australia and send them all there to fend for themselves?

novel and original idea, good sir.

We've already tried that in Britain. They just return 200 years later and take all the bar jobs.

[Rover]

unfortunately, gm is so rooted into the economy i fear its collapse will accelerate the economy's downward spiral.
Why Detroit's auto executives are ruling out going bankrupt

Over more than a century, Detroit's autoworkers have survived two world wars, recessions and oil spikes, but a bankruptcy by a U.S. automaker would finally knock their destiny out of their hands.

Despite vows by top officials to avoid bankruptcy, fear is high that dwindling cash reserves could push one or more of Detroit's three automakers into court protection within the next several months. Even a hypothetical glimpse of the consequences shows why executives insist bankruptcy is not an option.

The fallout would likely range from thousands of jobs cut at factories and offices to the slashing of jobs at suppliers and dealers, the shredding of benefits for workers and losses for investors and pension plans.
While a bankruptcy by General Motors, Ford or Chrysler wouldn't approach the size of the $613-billion reorganization that Lehman Bros. filed earlier this year, it would easily become one of the most complex legal fights ever, with thousands of parties scratching for a piece of whatever's left. And with one in 10 U.S. jobs supported by the industry, millions of workers could be affected.
"The impact would be devastating," said Kevin Tynan of Argus Research. "The impact of the collapse of GM would be bigger than Lehman Bros."

http://www.freep.com/article/20081110/BUSINESS01/811100315/?imw=Y
Anybody who says everything will be okay if the GM and Ford go bankrupt is either a pure capitalist or a masochist.

[Rumpleforeskin]

I've always defended american automakers staunchly, but I'll admit that when it comes to cars, GM makes the shittiest of the shitty. Chevy Malibu? WTF. Their cars are garbage, save for a few sports cars and Cadillacs. I'm with the crowd that says let them go. Maybe someone will have the balls to dissolve or as least rework the unions then.

However, somebody please keep the Cadillac brand going, k?

[hatepoppy]

I've always defended american automakers staunchly, but I'll admit that when it comes to cars, GM makes the shittiest of the shitty. Chevy Malibu? WTF. Their cars are garbage, save for a few sports cars and Cadillacs. I'm with the crowd that says let them go. Maybe someone will have the balls to dissolve or as least rework the unions then.

However, somebody please keep the Cadillac brand going, k?
wtf for?

[Pax Britannia]

wtf for?

Pimps.

[TylerDurden]

I've always defended american automakers staunchly, but I'll admit that when it comes to cars, GM makes the shittiest of the shitty.

pretty staunch support you're sportin' there, chief.

cadillac suffers from the same don't-give-a-fuck mentality that gm's standard lineup gets. ever seen the fit and finish of a bmw? i'm not talkin' 7 series, either... just a standard run-o-the-mill 3'er? puts caddy to fucking shame.

if gm goes... caddy can go.

[Limp]

Dey beez rollin on dooze deuce deuces!

[Limp]

pretty staunch support you're sportin' there, chief.

cadillac suffers from the same don't-give-a-fuck mentality that gm's standard lineup gets. ever seen the fit and finish of a bmw? i'm not talkin' 7 series, either... just a standard run-o-the-mill 3'er? puts caddy to fucking shame.

if gm goes... caddy can go.
I saw the fit and finish of your mom last night.... what is she? A 5?

[TylerDurden]

I saw the fit and finish of your mom last night.... what is she? A 5?

somethin' like that. ever since the sex change op he/she just ain't been the same.

[Limp]

Yeah... her dick hurts WAY less.

[TylerDurden]

Yeah... her dick hurts WAY less.

i remember you sayin' you couldn't walk for a week the last time she dicked you down.

[Limp]

I was fine when she dicked me down, it's when she dicked me up that cause the injury.

[TylerDurden]

I was fine when she dicked me down, it's when she dicked me up that cause the injury.

you gotta be careful with her; sometimes she gets a little overzealous.

out of curiosity: how did a conversation about gm's suckitude degrade into my mother putting a giant penis into your asshole?

[Pax Britannia]

Thats the beauty of GMF.

[TylerDurden]

Thats the beauty of GMF.

i'm not sure i'd call that beauty...

[Pax Britannia]

Beauty is in the japs eye of the beholder.

[Rumpleforeskin]

wtf for?


Because they are actually decent cars, but then again I'm not a car snob. We have 2 DTSs at work as run-around cars and they're pretty fuckin' nice. Yeah, they aren't 7 series' but they also are 30 grand less. Cadillac is the only thing GM has going for it, and I'll bet you they are the most profitable division.

[hatepoppy]

Because they are actually decent cars, but then again I'm not a car snob. We have 2 DTSs at work as run-around cars and they're pretty fuckin' nice. Yeah, they aren't 7 series' but they also are 30 grand less. Cadillac is the only thing GM has going for it, and I'll bet you they are the most profitable division.pretty nice? it's still a tremendously inefficient machine. it really is an american car. too gluttonous to know it's disgusting.

im far from a wheatgrass liberal driving a hybrid. id call myself more conservative than anything. but to see such a waste of fuel and resources (material and human) as an engineer is deplorable.

i know it's ironic that i drive a buick and am saying this. its on the low to middle end of efficiency, so i cant talk that much shit. foreign cars were just priced too high for me when i bought that car.

[Rumpleforeskin]

Dude, a DTS gets 28 mpg on the highway. That's hardly inefficient.

[Hodge]

My car gets 47 mpg. I'd say 28 is pretty fucking inefficient. I could give two shits whether it's a truck or not.

That's the whole problem. I see adds in newspapers and on TV saying a truck is fuel efficient at 28 mpg. Sure, that's fuel efficient for a truck but it's not for a vehicle.
Then GM and Ford brag about their compacts and sub-compacts that get 48-50 mpg. My car is 8 years old and it gets that mileage. Congratulations you fucks, you're achieving mileage the Japanese attained 10 years ago. Now my taxes (Canada is gonna have to help out things on our side of the border) are gonna be used to bail you out because your heads have been so far up your asses for so long.

Economists and stock watchers have been saying for years that oil was going to go up and inevitably, it did. Instead of hammering out some cars that could compete with the Civics and Priuses they went and revamped the Mustang, Charger, Challenger, Camaro...the list goes on. On top of that they broke the 300 hp mark for trucks. I guess the average family need 345 hp even if they only get 15 mpg.

Fuck 'em. All three of them can merge or go bankrupt. Maybe with all of that brain power together they can do something that makes sense.

[TylerDurden]

dts: 25 hwy/17 cty

but that's beside the point. if cadillacs are the best thing gm has going for it it's no wonder they're in the shithole they are.

[hatepoppy]

Dude, a DTS gets 28 mpg on the highway. That's hardly inefficient.
sheep.

think for yourself once in a whilez!

[hatepoppy]

Dude, a DTS gets 28 mpg on the highway. That's hardly inefficient.
and really, my car, that buick i mentioned was on the low to middle end of mpgs?

25 hwy
17 city

just like a dts.

[Rumpleforeskin]

Well, if you want to argue semantics, that number is the EPA mpg. It easily achieves more than that. I drive them, I know. Anyway, I'm not saying Cadillac is the end-all be-all of the motor world, just that they are "better" cars than the other bullshit the US shits out. And while it might not get 48,000 miles to the gallon, it is a quiet, powerful car with aggressive styling, creature comforts, and enough room that I'd don't have to rub dicks with the other guys in the car. With the modest luxury it exudes, and its price, 28 mpg is pretty good, especially when compared to its GM companions (which is what I'm saying)

[hatepoppy]

oh ok.

cadillacs are the smartest retards on the short bus.

gotcha.

[Rumpleforeskin]

thank you. And it only took me 3 posts!

[TylerDurden]

Well, if you want to argue semantics, that number is the EPA mpg. It easily achieves more than that. I drive them, I know.

the fact that your mouth is steadily wrapped around the cock of a failing automotive company doesn't hide the fact that they're failing by epic amounts of suck, they're letting you hang from their collective fucking nuts, you're downing dick over a dts of all cars, or that your mouth is (big fucking shock here) on a cock. that's four counts of fail in a paragraph of less than as many fucking sentences.

Anyway, I'm not saying Cadillac is the end-all be-all of the motor world, just that they are "better" cars than the other bullshit the US shits out. And while it might not get 48,000 miles to the gallon, it is a quiet, powerful car with aggressive styling, creature comforts, and enough room that I'd don't have to rub dicks with the other guys in the car. With the modest luxury it exudes, and its price, 28 mpg is pretty good, especially when compared to its GM companions (which is what I'm saying)

but that's beside the point. if cadillacs are the best thing gm has going for it it's no wonder they're in the shithole they are.

bottom line, close the thread:

cadillacs are the smartest retards on the short bus.

[Rumpleforeskin]

The fact that you care that much to type all that up is fucking sad. It did make me laugh though. Do you have a newsletter?

[TylerDurden]

The fact that you care that much to type all that up is fucking sad.

i'm bored.

It did make me laugh though. Do you have a newsletter?

no.

[Gary_Busey]

I would drive that new CTS-V.

[mongo]

The fact that you care that much to type all that up is fucking sad. It did make me laugh though. Do you have a newsletter?

the fact that you feel like posting at all is fucking sad.

[POO POO CANNON]

I <3 my '97 Yukon.

[NOTKyle]

That bitch has the face of a 12 year old.


ohh, yeah...

NICE BUMPSADFL;J

[Gary_Busey]

My '99 Malibu's engine light came on on Tuesday and turned off today. GM magic!

[Claydon]

Look, I am an automotive dunce; but be that as it may 9 years ago when gasoline was like $1 a gallon and every fucking sheeple out there was buying excursions and yukons that got 10 mpg I was harping and going on and on that the big 3 were going to get creamed once oil prices went up again. I also remember reading about the contracts that were signing with the UAW were going to absolutely squeeze their nuts in the long run and I remember going on and on with my dad. Again, I am a auto dunce, I am also not a business kind of guy, but COME FUCKING ON....even a dunce could see years ago that this fucking model was so doomed. Everyone knows that GM and Ford can only move at a snails pace because of their bullshit management/union style.

[TylerDurden]

My '99 Malibu's engine light came on on Tuesday and turned off today. GM magic!

enjoy the magic while it's here... won't be too long and you won't be able to buy these beauties any longer. you'll have to start buying those inferior japanese and european cars... </sarcasm>

[Gary_Busey]

It's been fine up until now. I hope it gets me through the next year or so.

[POO POO CANNON]

enjoy the magic while it's here... won't be too long and you won't be able to buy these beauties any longer. you'll have to start buying those inferior japanese and european cars... </sarcasm>

GM trucks aren't bad. I've seen tonnes last upwards of 350,000 km (for some reason they're really popular where I go to school. One of my buddies even has a Yukon GT). Infact, I've never heard of one that crapped out before then. The reason I say they're not bad is because on the way to those rediculously high mileages you're going to lose a few interior lights and other small things along the way, maybe a few transmissions if you suck. My parents have had some decent cars in the time I've been able to really drive them, and I can honestly say you feel just as cool driving a big honking SUV as a real sports car. I can totally understand why they went like pussy flavoured hotcakes back when gas was cheap. I for one, like the big SUV (Excursion, H1's, Suburbans) scene.

That being said, my rear right doors lamp cover fell off the other day. I have no idea where that fucking thing went.

Also, only 1 of the 4 cars my family has gets over 16 mpg. That doesn't make us terrible people.

[Archangel]

Stop bragging about how rich you guys are.

[POO POO CANNON]

Point out the part of the post where you think I'm bragging and I'll point out how you are a big idiot.

[Mustard]

Also, only 1 of the 4 cars my family has gets over 16 mpg. That doesn't make us terrible people.
Terrible, hell no. Not terribly bright... well, yeah.

[Archangel]

A mite touchy, are we, Poo?

[POO POO CANNON]

It's 4 21 AM and I'm putting off an 8 page essay due at 8, cut a brotha some slack!

[Mustard]

It's 4 21 AM and I'm putting off an 8 page essay due at 8, cut a brotha some slack!
Plagiarsim FTW!

[Archangel]

You North Americans and your crazy college papers.

[POO POO CANNON]

Plagiarsim FTW!

They have this rediculous program (coupled with a scanner I guess...) that scans your essays for word strings using google. It rapes the fun right out of essays, if you ask me.

[Mustard]

Hey, I have a 30 page paper due in... 9 weeks.

[Archangel]

25 pages, due two weeks ago here.

[Mustard]

two weeks ago? as in you haven't completed it?

[STDSkillz]

They have this rediculous program (coupled with a scanner I guess...) that scans your essays for word strings using google. It rapes the fun right out of essays, if you ask me.

My school supposedly has that shit, but I haven't been caught yet.

But, then again, I don't plagiarize. So it's a two way street. (??)

[POO POO CANNON]

25 pages, due two weeks ago here.

You should probably hand that in...

[Archangel]

two weeks ago? as in you haven't completed it?
As in no, I haven't.
You should probably hand that in...
I talked to my boss/prof the other day, outlining my concept for the whole thing, and he's cool with it. He cares more about quality that due dates, I guess.

[Mustard]

My 30 pager is for one class, and that one class only has that paper that is due. I like how he has that set up, but then again, the entire grade is based on the paper...

I'm writing about the Federal Reserve. its pretty interesting so far. I'm glad I have another two months to research and write.

[Archangel]

My 30 pager is for one class, and that one class only has that paper that is due. I like how he has that set up, but then again, the entire grade is based on the paper...

That's how it works here, and these papers are even going towards my master's score.

[Mustard]

That's how it works here, and these papers are even going towards my master's score.
Nice, so don't fuck up!

Hmm, have you wrote your post-bac Thesis yet?

[Morfin]

*written

You need more a that college learnin'.

[hatepoppy]

My 30 pager is for one class, and that one class only has that paper that is due. I like how he has that set up, but then again, the entire grade is based on the paper...

I'm writing about the Federal Reserve. its pretty interesting so far. I'm glad I have another two months to research and write.
just make sure to included the fact that every dollar you earn is, itself, debt. you'll pay it back w your federal income taxes for the rest of your working life.

[Mustard]

*written

You need more a that college learnin'.
I'm from Oregon sir, we're allowed to say wrote.

[Bizz]

Speaking of GM, my GM Jimmy does not want to start today.

[Claydon]

So I was just reading about the Job Banks program where the union back in the 80s due to the big 3 wanting to automate more of their factories basically have it so that members get to go to a job banks office, sit on their fucking worthless asses and get paid 30 bucks an hour with full benefits. Apparently there are 12000 of these useless fucks on this payroll. Shame on the UAW for even coming up with this and FUCK GM, Ford, Dodge for agreeing to this bullshit. It was recently reaffrimed in the contract negotions in late 2007.

FUCK ALL OF THEM, THE UNIONS AND THE MANAGEMENT.

[Mustard]

I would just like to point out that if GM goes bankrupt and out of business, they would lay off about 500,000 employees.

What impact would this have on our already recessionary economy?

[smith42687]

I would just like to point out that if GM goes bankrupt and out of business, they would lay off about 500,000 employees.

What impact would this have on our already recessionary economy?

Don't forget to include the suppliers, who also employ people in rust belt towns that depend on their spending to fuel the restaurants and other business.

Not that I care if the USA looks more like Mexico (financially or climate wise) in 10 years, but I've been to many towns that live and die with the local plant. If Obama wants to turn around this economy, he knows he can't let one of the Big 3 be an overwhelming blemish.

[Mustard]

Don't forget to include the suppliers, who also employ people in rust belt towns that depend on their spending to fuel the restaurants and other business.

Not that I care if the USA looks more like Mexico (financially or climate wise) in 10 years, but I've been to many towns that live and die with the local plant. If Obama wants to turn around this economy, he knows he can't let one of the Big 3 be an overwhelming blemish.
Those are some great points smith, and I'm in agreement.

Now, I don't like the idea of spending taxpayer dollars bailing out these companies (whose managements have the brain capacity of 4th graders) anymore than the average citizen, but when you look at what the impact of one of the Big 3 would be if one of them bankrupted and went out of business, it becomes clear that letting them fail just isn't acceptable.

It all comes down (in my opinion) that the needs of the many (our economy) are greater than the needs of the few (in this case, naysayers who want GM to wither and die). Our economy can ill-afford another Lehman Brothers type collapse, and a GM collapse would be at least as bad as Lehman, if not far worse.

[TylerDurden]

Those are some great points smith, and I'm in agreement.

Now, I don't like the idea of spending taxpayer dollars bailing out these companies (whose managements have the brain capacity of 4th graders) anymore than the average citizen, but when you look at what the impact of one of the Big 3 would be if one of them bankrupted and went out of business, it becomes clear that letting them fail just isn't acceptable.

It all comes down (in my opinion) that the needs of the many (our economy) are greater than the needs of the few (in this case, naysayers who want GM to wither and die). Our economy can ill-afford another Lehman Brothers type collapse, and a GM collapse would be at least as bad as Lehman, if not far worse.

i'd like to see a few foreign companies come in and buy out gm. and by foreign i mean european. do away with the fucking unions, employ the same number of workers, etc. inject some fresh thinking into this tired-ass company. the vehicles it puts out should be worth owning.

wait, never mind. couldn't happen. they'd give us fuel-efficient, tunable, fun-to-drive cars and the portion of the american public who are two steps shy of being classified as jerry's kids (about 90%) would clamor and cry for horseshit, gas-guzzling, over-sized bullshit.

[Claydon]

i'd like to see a few foreign companies come in and buy out gm. and by foreign i mean european. do away with the fucking unions, employ the same number of workers, etc. inject some fresh thinking into this tired-ass company. the vehicles it puts out should be worth owning.

wait, never mind. couldn't happen. they'd give us fuel-efficient, tunable, fun-to-drive cars and the portion of the american public who are two steps shy of being classified as jerry's kids (about 90%) would clamor and cry for horseshit, gas-guzzling, over-sized bullshit.

mercedes did that with chrysler. we see how well that worked out.

[AJ]

I am I the only one thinking that this thread title should have been "GMF on it's last legs". Because, seriously, it is. That's what I see every time I read this shit.

[Archangel]

mercedes did that with chrysler. we see how well that worked out.

As gay as that merger was, the fact that the Chrysler 300 is the only American car that people actually buy is exclusively due to the fact that, being basically a 13-year-old Mercedes E-Class, it's about 20 years ahead of any other American saloon car.

[Yelram]

Just get it done with now, have the government buy out all the car companies, and institute new management. I know its a bad idea, but theres no choice now. Its either manage our own car company, or give more money to the idiots at GM.

Its funny how most of the people in this thread (many who were obama supporters), blame the unions, then vote for a guy who wants unions in every facet of business. They dont like the idea of sub-prime mortgages, and yet Obama was suing banks so they wouldnt be able to "discriminate" who they gave their mortgages to. It also seems pretty ironic, that Obama rode the "bad economy" horse all the way to the whitehouse, when he was involved with the cause of the problem.

[Debo]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_djgssszshgM/SR652xnt46I/AAAAAAAAAqs/7qEUg8GmJis/s1600/big3a.jpg

[Archangel]

Red x.

[Debo]

Red x.

Sorry, it works for me. Try this:
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2008/11/cost-differences.html

[URFloorMatt]

How does the Kool-Aid taste? What do even the best plug in hybrids get, 100mpg? VW mass produced an 80 mpg conventional turbodiesel 10 years ago, and will build the 250-mpg 1L from 2010 on, none of which require heavy-ass batteries.

Hybrids are window dressing for the same gullible Americans who used to believe that they built the best cars in the world; it's a marketing ploy used by the Japanese to go eco on an American market that knew nothing of modern diesels, nothing more.

Your points are, frankly, idiotic and myopic. Something like 80% of Americans never drive more than 40mi per day. Plug in hybrids use zero gasoline until the charge is empty. For those folks, they won't need gasoline period.

Moreover, it is incredibly cheap and easy to build a plug-in infrastructure for parking garages and parking lots that extends the range. Commuter lots equipped with nothing more than AC outlets now give these cars a daily range of 60 or 80mi per day. Now an overwhelming percentage of Americans could buy a plug-in hybrid and reduce their gasoline consumption to near zero. People would, at worst, only have to fill up on gasoline every few months.

Gasoline consumption would fall off a cliff, and since very little of our central power supply comes from petroleum, this means a significant decrease in reliance on foreign oil. Of course, most of the U.S.'s energy supply is coal, so for environmental gains we'll need to switch. Hence the growing push to rebuild our energy infrastructure using wind and solar and the deployment of "smart" power grids, that allow decentralized sources to feed energy back into the grid.

Your diesel solution changes the equation zero; it just reduces our consumption by a third or whatever the percent is. Plug-in hybrids are a long term solution that push our consumption at some point near to zero. Your hydrogen solution, which might be viable in small countries like Germany, is a fucking boondoggle in a low density country with almost zero emphasis on public transit like the United States and won't be viable for 50 years or more here.

[TylerDurden]

Just get it done with now, have the government buy out all the car companies, and institute new management. I know its a bad idea, but theres no choice now. Its either manage our own car company, or give more money to the idiots at GM.

good so far... but captain fuckface morph in 3... 2... 1...

Its funny how most of the people in this thread (many who were obama supporters), blame the unions, then vote for a guy who wants unions in every facet of business. They dont like the idea of sub-prime mortgages, and yet Obama was suing banks so they wouldnt be able to "discriminate" who they gave their mortgages to. It also seems pretty ironic, that Obama rode the "bad economy" horse all the way to the whitehouse, when he was involved with the cause of the problem.

see what you did there?

[Mustard]

Your points are, frankly, idiotic and myopic. Something like 80% of Americans never drive more than 40mi per day. Plug in hybrids use zero gasoline until the charge is empty. For those folks, they won't need gasoline period.

Moreover, it is incredibly cheap and easy to build a plug-in infrastructure for parking garages and parking lots that extends the range. Commuter lots equipped with nothing more than AC outlets now give these cars a daily range of 60 or 80mi per day. Now an overwhelming percentage of Americans could buy a plug-in hybrid and reduce their gasoline consumption to near zero. People would, at worst, only have to fill up on gasoline every few months.

Gasoline consumption would fall off a cliff, and since very little of our central power supply comes from petroleum, this means a significant decrease in reliance on foreign oil. Of course, most of the U.S.'s energy supply is coal, so for environmental gains we'll need to switch. Hence the growing push to rebuild our energy infrastructure using wind and solar and the deployment of "smart" power grids, that allow decentralized sources to feed energy back into the grid.

Your diesel solution changes the equation zero; it just reduces our consumption by a third or whatever the percent is. Plug-in hybrids are a long term solution that push our consumption at some point near to zero. Your hydrogen solution, which might be viable in small countries like Germany, is a fucking boondoggle in a low density country with almost zero emphasis on public transit like the United States and won't be viable for 50 years or more here.

Plug in hybrids do remove gasoline from the end-user side of the equation for the most part. However, to make up the difference, energy is still required, it just changes form from gasoline to electricity. How that electricity is produced by your utility company will determine whether or not it makes sense in the long run. Think about that, if your utility company is selling you KWhs that were produced from burning coal, oil, or natural gas, what did you really change?

With all that said, I love the idea of a plug in hybrid. But to solve the problem inherent in my above point, I see two solutions. One is to move utility companys away from non-renewables like coal, oil, nat gas, etc and get them to invest in renewables like soal, wind, tidal, etc. Two is I would suggest that end-users who are capable install solar panels on their roof so that they might collect enough sunlight to near exclusively power the battery in their plug in hybrid auto.

[URFloorMatt]

Hence:

Gasoline consumption would fall off a cliff, and since very little of our central power supply comes from petroleum, this means a significant decrease in reliance on foreign oil. Of course, most of the U.S.'s energy supply is coal, so for environmental gains we'll need to switch. Hence the growing push to rebuild our energy infrastructure using wind and solar and the deployment of "smart" power grids, that allow decentralized sources to feed energy back into the grid.

Over 50% of our energy is coal-based. Less than 20% is oil based, and even less is oil based if you exclude natural gas (which you should, since most of our natural gas comes from South America, not the Middle East). By the time you figure our South American and Canadian oil supplies, we could quickly and easily remove our dependence on foreign oil in a decade.

Obviously, the environmental problem is a slightly more difficult one to solve, but in the same 10 year period we could completely rebuild our energy infrastructure to support smart-grid technologies.

As Pickens has argued, we will need natural gas for the foreseeable future. You can't run an 18-wheeler or an airplane on a plug-in battery, and all our goods are shipped one way or the other. I don't know if there are hydrogen solutions for these types of vehicles, but it's worth pointing out that it would be much easier to build a hydrogen infrastructure to keep commercial trucks running, since their routes are managed and predictable.

[Archangel]

Your diesel solution changes the equation zero; it just reduces our consumption by a third or whatever the percent is. Plug-in hybrids are a long term solution that push our consumption at some point near to zero. Your hydrogen solution, which might be viable in small countries like Germany, is a fucking boondoggle in a low density country with almost zero emphasis on public transit like the United States and won't be viable for 50 years or more here.

82 million is a "small country"? Good thing I'M the idiot here.

You can't run an 18-wheeler or an airplane on a plug-in battery, and all our goods are shipped one way or the other. I don't know if there are hydrogen solutions for these types of vehicles, but it's worth pointing out that it would be much easier to build a hydrogen infrastructure to keep commercial trucks running, since their routes are managed and predictable.

There are ships running on hydrogen fuel cells already.

[Archangel]

It's also funny because you apparently think that electricity just comes out of the socket: Are there any figures for how much power requirements would skyrocket if the whole country started driving electric cars, coal not being exactly what one would call "clean energy"?

[Debo]

After reading the article below, I cannot feel any sympathy for anyone associated with the UAW (not that I felt any for them before I read it).

From the WSJ:

Auto Union Head Says Management, Union Not to Blame for Industry's Trouble

By MATTHEW DOLAN (http://online.wsj.com/search/search_center.html?KEYWORDS=MATTHEW+DOLAN&ARTICLESEARCHQUERY_PARSER=bylineAND)

DETROIT -- The president of the United Auto Workers union said the dire financial troubles of the three U.S. auto makers is the result this year's spike in gasoline prices and the meltdown on Wall Street, not missteps by management or high labor costs.


"This industry is in a crisis situation not of its own making," Ron Gettelfinger said in an interview Saturday afternoon with The Wall Street Journal.
Mr. Gettelfinger also urged Congress to provide financial help to prevent General Motors (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=GM) Corp., Ford Motor (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=F) Co. or Chrysler (http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=C) LLC from sliding into bankruptcy protection.


Bankruptcy is "the worst possible route that any of these companies could go down," Mr. Gettelfinger said. The union believes the auto makers would not be able to recover from a bankruptcy filing and would have to "liquidate everything," he said. "It would be the beginning of the demise of the industry."


For decades, the UAW waged bitter battles with management over wages, benefits, executive pay and jobs. Only a year ago, the union called short strikes against GM and Chrysler during their contract negotiations a year ago, and Mr. Gettelfinger suggested top executives earnings millions were "hogs slopping at the trough of corporate greed" while trying to force workers to bear the brunt of cost cuts.


Now, with GM at risk of collapse, the union representing about 150,000 U.S. auto workers is joining forces with the companies in a blitzkrieg public campaign to plead for a federal bail out. Although Mr. Gettelfinger rarely talks to the media aside from local radio stations in Detroit, he has reached out over the weekend to make the union's viewpoint clear.
Although GM Chief Executive Rick Wagoner has come under heavy criticism, Mr. Gettelfinger said a change in management is not needed. ""It's a stretch to say that management is responsible for all of the things happening now that no one anticipated or expected," he said.


That's a shift from the past when union rhetoric typically pointed the finger at management mistakes as the main reason for Detroit's troubles.
On Monday, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is expected to put forth a bill giving the industry access to the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program. That entity, known as TARP, was set up by the government in October to help ailing banks and other financial firms. The Bush administration and many Senate Republicans oppose giving auto makers access to TARP.


Mr. Gettelfinger is expected to join Mr. Wagoner and the CEOs of Ford and Chrysler at congressional hearings in Washington starting Tuesday. The union is urging Congress to pass a bill providing a "bridge loan" to keep the Detroit auto makers going until the economy and auto sales pick up.
Without immediate aid, Mr. Gettelfinger argued that at least one of the three U.S. auto makers would file for bankruptcy, increasing the likelihood that at least one other auto maker follow and an untold number of other businesses, including auto parts suppliers, dealership and related enterprises would go out of business.


The UAW president said the industry's predicament is a direct result of an unprecedented drop-off in auto sales that started with high gas prices this summer. Eroding consumer confidence to make big-ticket purchases was fueled by a credit crunch that limited customers' ability to buy a new car or truck and forced the companies to spend more money then they were bringing in, according to Mr. Gettelfinger.


Earlier this month, GM acknowledged its cash reserves could approach the minimum levels it needs to keep its operations going later this year, if it doesn't get government help or see a dramatic turnaround in vehicle sales.
The union brushed aside the idea of making concessions in order to seal a deal for governmental aid. Mr. Gettelfinger cited significant concessions already made by the UAW in its 2007 contract with the auto makers. They include the establishment of a separate health-care trust for retired auto workers and the introduction of a two-tiered system wages that allow the Big Three to hire new workers at significantly lower wages and without fixed pensions.


Many analysts believe the concessions will eliminate the labor cost advantage foreign auto makers have had in their non-union plants in the U.S.


Pointing to other bailouts in the financial sectors, Mr. Gettelfinger added that "bankers and even the people who clean their offices" were not demonized in the way the debate in Washington has turned against the people who work in U.S. auto factories.


"It's unfair for people to single out auto workers," he said.

[Insomniac]

It's also funny because you apparently think that electricity just comes out of the socket: Are there any figures for how much power requirements would skyrocket if the whole country started driving electric cars, coal not being exactly what one would call "clean energy"?

About the same as the strain plasma televisions have put on the grid in the past few years.

No, seriously.

[Swurgen]

Look, I am an automotive dunce; but be that as it may 9 years ago when gasoline was like $1 a gallon and every fucking sheeple out there was buying excursions and yukons that got 10 mpg I was harping and going on and on that the big 3 were going to get creamed once oil prices went up again. I also remember reading about the contracts that were signing with the UAW were going to absolutely squeeze their nuts in the long run and I remember going on and on with my dad. Again, I am a auto dunce, I am also not a business kind of guy, but COME FUCKING ON....even a dunce could see years ago that this fucking model was so doomed. Everyone knows that GM and Ford can only move at a snails pace because of their bullshit management/union style.

Well considering the Japanese first caught them with their pants down with the late 70's gas crisis, I think the upper mgmt there had more than enough time to get their shit straight regardless of your evil unions. They didn't get it done.

[Claydon]

Well considering the Japanese first caught them with their pants down with the late 70's gas crisis, I think the upper mgmt there had more than enough time to get their shit straight regardless of your evil unions. They didn't get it done.


That is yet ANOTHER reason why I don't give a shit about US automakers. They went through this already and they were bitches then, and they are even bigger whiner bitches now.

[TylerDurden]

that's why you allow foreign companies to come in and buy them shits outright, employ the same number of non-union labor employees (we'll have a temporary unemployment issue as all the union members are told to leave the union or rot without work), so that 500k americans can have a job. whether it's the same 500k or not really depends on how many of those original half million are prepared to make their families starve over some outdated union rhetoric.

hell, you can even leave it branded as general motors, chevy, cadillac, etc... just get the current management fucks out and make the people on the assembly line earn that $12/hour instead of the $30/hr they're getting currently. inject some fresh capital and fresh thinking into the design department, take a good hard look at what the europeans are doing, and put ourselves on the path in that direction. when a new car is created hype it to fuck like they hype the fucking gas-guzzlers now. it may take a few years, but eventually you'll turn it around and american cars will join the rest of the world on the path they've been on for quite some time.

shit, it'd be nice to hear jeremy clarkson speak decently of an american car without a caveat lurking behind his last sentence.

[Debo]

That is yet ANOTHER reason why I don't give a shit about US automakers. They went through this already and they were bitches then, and they are even bigger whiner bitches now.

Look, people can bitch about what technologies are viable and which ones aren't. The bottom line is that the Big 3 make too many shitty cars that nobody wants to buy and they have an uncompetitive cost structure.

Until they address these two problems, nothing is going to save them (Unless we ban the other car companies from making cars. Which is fucking dumb).

[URFloorMatt]

82 million is a "small country"? Good thing I'M the idiot here.In terms of area, smart ass. Germany could fit inside Texas, since it's only half as large. The entire EU is only about 40% the size of the United States. In terms of density, the numbers are similarly disproportionate: in 1997 (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/1996/in1.pdf), Germany was ten times as densely populated as the United States.

By comparison to the United States, Germany is a tiny country with a much higher population per square mile that doesn't rely as much on automobiles. It might shock you to consider that infrastructure solutions for Germany make zero sense for the United States, particularly in the short term.There are ships running on hydrogen fuel cells already.Cool. A transition to a hydrogen fueling infrastructure would be easily manageable in the commercial shipping industry, since ships already can only fuel in specified ports.It's also funny because you apparently think that electricity just comes out of the socket: Are there any figures for how much power requirements would skyrocket if the whole country started driving electric cars, coal not being exactly what one would call "clean energy"?Did I not mention how important a shift to wind and solar is if we're going to get serious about plug-in hybrids?

Ultimately, even the transition to plug-in hybrids will take a long time; it's not like 200 million new cars are going to plug into the electrical grid suddenly overnight to replace the 200 million gas-powered cars on U.S. roads right now. The increased pressure on the energy grid will be slow and incremental, even if we seriously subsidize the purchase of plug-in hybrids and seriously subsidize the deployment of plug-in ready garages and parking lots. But unless plug-in batteries are highly inefficient, the net energy consumption will be nil: we're simply trading gasoline consumption for coal/nuclear/wind/geothermal/natural gas consumption.

The transition to hydrogen will take decades longer than the transition to plug-in hybrids because few will willingly purchase hydrogen cars--which will be much more expensive than gasoline powered cars--until they can drive it locally and regionally without fear of running out of hydrogen due to a lack of fueling stations. And aside from a few isolated pockets on the West coast, hydrogen fueling stations do not exist in the United States (and I don't believe those that do exist are available for general public consumption). The fact that hydrogen cars can get 250mi to the cell is largely irrelevant to whether hydrogen fueling stations are convenient for recharging, and this will slow deployment of hydrogen cars for decades yet.

The infrastructure build out to facilitate a switch to hydrogen is astronomical, and the only benefit to that build out is that gasoline becomes an obsolete fuel source for our cars. Conversely, while plug-in hybrids would place new pressure on our existing energy infrastructure, our energy grid is outdated and inefficient in its own right, and will need to be significantly rebuilt to sustain increased demands and depleted natural resources moving into the 22nd century whether we transition to plug-in hybrids or not.

When plug-in hybrids go on the market in 2010, people will buy them immediately. Everyone's got an outlet in their home, and when the battery dries up, they can rely on the gas engine to power their battery. There's no need to rebuild infrastructure just for the sake of obsoleting gasoline.

For the time being, the only viable deployment of hydrogen would be strategic deployment: along the major highways that are critical arteries for commercial trucking industries. Business will be much more willing to early adopt hydrogen assuming there are benefits in doing so (significant mileage increases likely being one of those benefits, given the horrible mileage I'd imagine most trucks and 18-wheelers currently pull down).

[Insomniac]

Good anti-bailout article: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGE4MGEwMTkwMzE3MGE1NWI4MGJkYTA4M2NkMTIwZmU

With a neat little graph:

http://theamericanscene.com/images/81.gif

[Whiffleball]

I find all this anti-bailout sentiment rather absurd, as if in a terrible economy with already growing unemployment it's perfectly acceptable for these major manufacturers to just fail. Why? Because "that's how the market works"? If the roof of your house starts to crumble because the person who built it did a bad job, do you just shrug your shoulders and say, "Caveat emptor!" and allow yourself to be crushed?

If GM were to go into total liquidation, over 100,000 people would be thrown out of work. That would be the immediate effect. Then you'd see major losses to automobile parts manufacturers who rely on GM for business. Without parts, both domestic and foreign-owned factories would also take a hit. What we're talking about isn't the controlled demolition of three companies but a titanic collapse whose ripples would be felt throughout the entire country as people lost their jobs. Local economies centered around manufacturing towns would nosedive, causing further job losses. The middle of America would take the brunt of all this, but with this sort of thing as precedent and the long-run influence of just allowing the Big 3 to fail, there would be national consequences.

So while doing nothing is obviously a bad idea, I don't think a blank check should be written for these companies considering where they've led themselves so far. The executives should all be fired and at the very least not allowed golden parachutes. And while crushing the unions is over-the-top reactionary, the workers have to realize that they must make concessions when it comes to overgenerous benefits they receive. (Honestly, I don't see how the unions are in much of a position to demand anything if their livelihood is so deeply threatened.) But most importantly of all, the government should make sure it gets something for its money and attach some strings to the bailout to require these companies pursue greater innovation and fuel efficiency. It would also be nice of the government itself to bring down the mass consumption of oil and to perhaps take on some of these health care provisions that unions have to twist their employers' arms for.

Bloomberg reports (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ad09qxbiElB8&refer=home) that a General Motors failure would cost the federal government $200 billion. And the Center for Automotive Research (http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN0432128020071004) concludes that if the Big Three fail, it will mean the loss of 3 million jobs in the first year of collapse.

As Naomi Klein has writen (http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/excerpt), proponents of unfettered capitalism are always looking for these "clean slates" where other people pay the price in misery for their philosophical experiments. But as Paul Krugman noted on This Week when he ate George Will for a mid-morning snack (http://firedoglake.com/2008/11/17/zapping-the-volt/), expecting the economy to absorb that kind of impact right now would be extraordinarily risky.

[Archangel]

The problem is that getting a modern, fuel efficient car on the road costs several billion dollars even for a company that is at the forefront of automotive research. For a company that's a generation behind, it would have to be a titanic effort. The second issue is build quality, which is also VERY expensive to re-establish once you've let it go to shit, as Daimler are finding out right now - rather painfully, I should add.
Add to all this the fact that the current economic climate is having a devastating effect on new car sales, and you can see why trying to prop them up might be a fool's errand.

Even with a massive cash injection and total re-structuring focused on innovation now, GM will be in no position to turn around for the next five-ten years or so. They just screwed the pooch too hard and too often.

[Archangel]

It would be far less painful if they just let the Japanese and Europeans take them over. Cars would still be built, and supply chains would be maintained.

[Morfin]

I have yet to hear a good answer to the following question: Why is the financial sector worthy of a $700 million bail-out, but the automotive industry, which accounts for 1 in 10 American jobs, not worthy of a $25 bail-out?

I was against the first bail-out and I am against the automobile industry bail-out, but I want to understand why one merits bailing out, yet another major industry asking for 1/28 as much does not.

Can ya' help a brotha out here?

[IdiotBrain]

I want a Focus ST

:(

[Yelram]

I find all this anti-bailout sentiment rather absurd, as if in a terrible economy with already growing unemployment it's perfectly acceptable for these major manufacturers to just fail..

I like how everyone assumes bankruptcy means they are just going to fold up, and disappear. Thats horseshit.

[Morfin]

Check this out: A video regarding the tax foreclosures in Wayne County, Michigan (where Detroit is). We got this in our Sunday Detroit Free Press. The County did this last year and again this past weekend. Keep in mind, this is only tax foreclosures, not bank foreclosures, which are likely more prevalent.

[No I did not make this. My voice is much whinier.]

ufexZnViDiU

If one or more of the car companies crash. It's going to be really interesting. Thank goodness neither my or my wife's practices are auto-related.

[Archangel]

I have yet to hear a good answer to the following question: Why is the financial sector worthy of a $700 million bail-out, but the automotive industry, which accounts for 1 in 10 American jobs, not worthy of a $25 bail-out?

I was against the first bail-out and I am against the automobile industry bail-out, but I want to understand why one merits bailing out, yet another major industry asking for 1/28 as much does not.

Can ya' help a brotha out here?

Beats the fuck out of me. But then again, (investment) banking economy and real economy have got nothing to do with each other anyway...

[Claydon]

Check this out: A video regarding the tax foreclosures in Wayne County, Michigan (where Detroit is). We got this in our Sunday Detroit Free Press. The County did this last year and again this past weekend. Keep in mind, this is only tax foreclosures, not bank foreclosures, which are likely more prevalent.

[No I did not make this. My voice is much whinier.]

ufexZnViDiU

If one or more of the car companies crash. It's going to be really interesting. Thank goodness neither my or my wife's practices are auto-related.

Good thing michigan has such a progressive governor and love of union labor. I wonder if the Obama team will follow these concepts for fixing our economy??

[Morfin]

Governor Jen is on Obama's transition team, surely to spread her magic allllll around.

[Claydon]

The problem is that getting a modern, fuel efficient car on the road costs several billion dollars even for a company that is at the forefront of automotive research. For a company that's a generation behind, it would have to be a titanic effort. The second issue is build quality, which is also VERY expensive to re-establish once you've let it go to shit, as Daimler are finding out right now - rather painfully, I should add.
Add to all this the fact that the current economic climate is having a devastating effect on new car sales, and you can see why trying to prop them up might be a fool's errand.

Even with a massive cash injection and total re-structuring focused on innovation now, GM will be in no position to turn around for the next five-ten years or so. They just screwed the pooch too hard and too often.

I agree with you for the most part, however I would not completely count GM, Ford etc out just yet. Extraordinary things must happen, and quite frankly americans are such fucking pussies these days I doubt it could happen. They MUST break their union contracts and fucking flush those assholes. Members won't work without it, fine....fuck off. I am sure plenty of people will be willing to work for GM or Ford for $20+/hr plus medical benefits. Second, they MUST look specifically what is so attractive about the european and japanese cars. When I think style I think european, when I want the absolute top fucking quality for the best price I think japanese. However, they won't do this, and I am sure that if they tried to dump these fucking unions the congress or the president would step in to prevent such a thing from happening. The only reason the tech sector in this country has survived its implosion was due to the lack of unions. This allowed the tech sector an extraordinary level of flexibility in a difficult climate.

[Morfin]

Again, I am anti-bailout, but fair is fair and this just kills me:

Apparently the bid for an additional $25 billion has failed to garner sufficient support. The White House says that the original $25 billion loan should be made available immediately and then added:

Perino said money should also be held back unless automakers can prove they will be viable into the future. Link (http://www.freep.com/article/20081118/BUSINESS01/81118035)

Considering that none of the car companies have failed and several of the largest investment banks have failed, and considering that the $700 billion bail-out came with no strings attached, this statement is more asinine crap from Bush and Hank "Mr. Wall Street" Paulson.

[Archangel]

Find a niche. Look at Fiat: They tried to do mid-size saloon cars and MPVs for ten years or so, fell flat on their faces, and went back to what they always did best: Quirky, sporty superminis with style and boatloads of equipment. And now, things seem to be looking up for them. The French have got the small people carrier market in Europe locked down, while we do the premium/luxury stuff pretty well.

If you want character, you buy Italian, If you want image, you buy German. If you want build quality, you buy Japanese.

The problem is, the only thing you bought an American car for was size. And now that that isn't a really great motivation anymore, your companies are left holding the bag.

[Pax Britannia]

A correspondant on Fox News just said this:

"There's no proof that a low mileage car would sell"

Riiiight.

[Claydon]

A correspondant on Fox News just said this:

"There's no proof that a low mileage car would sell"

Riiiight.

denial is an amazing thing.

[Archangel]

A correspondant on Fox News just said this:

"There's no proof that a low mileage car would sell"

Riiiight.

They remind of of the nazi Wochenschau, talking in March '45 about how many million tons of British ships were sunk and how victory was near.

To call what they do "news" is like calling what Yelram does "political analysis".

[Pax Britannia]

They remind of of the nazi Wochenschau, talking in March '45 about how many million tons of British ships were sunk and how victory was near.

To call what they do "news" is like calling what Yelram does "political analysis".

You might scoff now but in a few years time he'll probably have his own 'opinion' show on Fox News.

[Claydon]

You might scoff now but in a few years time he'll probably have his own 'opinion' show on Fox News.

Oddly enough i got a call from Fox News last week to be an analyst on the O'Reily Factor.

true story

[Morfin]

Did they mistake you for Yelram?

[Pax Britannia]

Oddly enough i got a call from Fox News last week to be an analyst on the O'Reily Factor.

true story

They must be reading GMF.....

Hello mister Murdoch sir! Would you like a charming Brit to vomit forth your tidal wave of third way populist politics to the masses? Because i'm available.

[Insomniac]

Wow, they really will take anyone.

[Yelram]

A correspondant on Fox News just said this:

"There's no proof that a low mileage car would sell"

Riiiight.

What do you mean by low mileage? Wouldnt you mean high mileage? And if you do, then it does make sense, because what reasonable person would buy a copy of a european, or japanese car, when they could just buy the real thing, and not take a chance on GM's new venture. A large part of the big 3s income comes from trucks, and fleet vehicles.

[Pax Britannia]

What do you mean by low mileage? Wouldnt you mean high mileage? And if you do, then it does make sense, because what reasonable person would buy a copy of a european, or japanese car, when they could just buy the real thing, and not take a chance on GM's new venture. A large part of the big 3s income comes from trucks, and fleet vehicles.

I'm just quoting what the guy said. He didnt mention figures.

[TylerDurden]

what reasonable person would buy a copy of a european, or japanese car, when they could just buy the real thing, and not take a chance on GM's new venture. A large part of the big 3s income comes from trucks, and fleet vehicles.

you're a complete and total fucking idiot.

for starters... if the money that the big three made off of trucks and fleet vehicles were of any great amount and consequence we wouldn't be where we are right now, would we? rhetorical question, no need to fucking answer.

secondly, why is it that you think the money that they get for those trucks and fleet vehicles isn't enough? i'm seeing less and less american-made and more and more european-made these days. why? better quality, better warranties, better fuel efficiency.

third... bob lutz has already stated he's going to lose money on every fucking volt that's sold. yet the volt has the potential to be gm's saving grace. why? because the looks and performance of the volt will make people take a second look. if it's not an over-hyped pipe dream (lutz himself has said that the volt's performance, fuel efficiency etc. is possible but not active on the vehicle yet) it could provide proof that gm's designers and the management themselves are finally seeing a little of the light shining from across the pond.

fourth... if the big three can put out vehicles comparable to what's available from the europeans/japanese they'll have a fucking gold mine on their hands as they'll be inherently cheaper by virtue of being built in the u.s. with no tariffs or shipping necessary. it'll get even cheaper once they cut the disgusting union middle man out of the picture.

finally, competition breeds innovation. do you think that the great toyotas/hondas/nissans of the world are the way they are without competition? all gm needs to do is create a hype, sell a good number of the volt in the first couple of years and keep hyping/producing it. once they have that perfected they can look into another solid vehicle, and then another. meanwhile the rest of the world won't sit idly by and they'll play off of gm's cars because they're selling so well. then we'll have another great set of vehicles from other manufacturers, then gm will come back with a second salvo... you see the pattern.

[Archangel]

What GM needs to do is leapfrog. They're stuck with telegraph poles while everybody else is building cellular and getting ready for mobile broadband: If they try and play catch-up now, they're fucked. They have to take a huge gamble in pinpointing the way that cars will go not five, but 15 years from now.

Ford have got it easier. While they still have to invest in the future, for now they just have to get rid of the Expeditions and Tauruses, and re-tool to build what their European/Australian branches have been building. It's still a gamble, but I'm guessing that there are quite a few Americans who might be positively surprised at a Ford that's actually better than a Mercedes...

[Insomniac]

I didn't know Romney's dad was involved in the auto industry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?hp


IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

[Archangel]

I'm pretty sure that workers at BMW (Munich, not Spartanburg) make at least as much as those in Detroit. And yet, their product is competitive, if not the best in the world...

[Archangel]

There are some good points in that article...

This, however, shows that Mr Romney knows jack shit about the car industry.

Second, management as is must go.So far, so good.

But...

New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

Oh fuck no. Hiring bankers to build cars was Detroit's downfall in the first fucking place. Look around, people. With the exception of Toyota, ALL the most successful car makers are run by one group of people.

Engineers.

You don't get GM back on their feet by hiring people who were successful marketing fucking yogurt; you get GM running again by hiring people who are passionate about building great cars.
The general problem in the American auto industry can be summed up in one word: apathy. Management didn't care about the product, only a short term rise of stocks so they could get a fat bonus when they bailed to making fruit juice or floating junk bonds. Since only meh cars were green-lighted, workers didn't give a shit about their work, either. And after having shit crammed down their throats by marketing for three decades, the customers stopped caring, as well.

Cars aren't refrigerators. Even in a country that buys the most boring vehicle in the world by the boatloads (the Camry), the purchase of a car isn't fully governed by reason and cost effectiveness.
If people bought cars like microwave dinners or blenders, Porsche wouldn't sell a single fucking car - yet, for some reason, they're the most profitable auto maker in the world.
And that is because, from CEO Wendelin Wiedeking (a mechanical engineer by trade) down to the line workers, EVERYBODY loves cars, and everybody cares about their product. There isn't one guy involved in the production of, say, the Cayman S who is from an "unrelated industry".

Jesus, don't make THAT mistake again.

[Yelram]

you're a complete and total fucking idiot.

for starters... if the money that the big three made off of trucks and fleet vehicles were of any great amount and consequence we wouldn't be where we are right now, would we? rhetorical question, no need to fucking answer.
I will anyway, the big 3 control 87% of the truck market, that is fucking significant. I think they should just entirely stop building cars. Their failures havent been NOT producing Japanese/European spinoffs, its their management, and labor problems, the same as usual. And they just arent going to be able to compete with the foreign car companies by producing a foreign car knockoff. The volt is the worst idea EVER, and if they go through with it, it will be the death of them.


secondly, why is it that you think the money that they get for those trucks and fleet vehicles isn't enough? i'm seeing less and less american-made and more and more european-made these days. why? better quality, better warranties, better fuel efficiency.

fourth... if the big three can put out vehicles comparable to what's available from the europeans/japanese they'll have a fucking gold mine on their hands as they'll be inherently cheaper by virtue of being built in the u.s. with no tariffs or shipping necessary. it'll get even cheaper once they cut the disgusting union middle man out of the picture.

Cheaper? Are you fucking stupid? VWs are made in MEXICO. There are Honda and Toyota manufacturers IN THE US, and they pay their employees LESS because they dont deal with with UNIONS. They could be giving BETTER warranties, BETTER fuel efficiency AND BETTER QUALITY, if they could just lower their COST OF LABOR. People who buy GM products are typically not looking for a little Euro tuner, if they were, they would go buy one.

[Archangel]

Um, the Jetta aside, the VWs on sale in the US are made in Europe, actually. But they are gonna build a major plant in Tennessee in the next years.

Also, people who buy GM products have been told for decades that to be a real American, you have to drive something that's at least 20ft long.

[Pax Britannia]

Another one of Pax's predictions:

In 30 years time there will be no major American car manufacturer. Only European and Japanese companies will remain.

[Archangel]

What about the Pacific Rim and India?

[Pax Britannia]

What about the Pacific Rim and India?

Both will have a moderately successful domestic car industry. Nothing to match the global scale of the Japanese and Europeans.

[heelsguy]

1). cut the $73/hour avg wage(including benefits) to around $40. still not too shabby.
2). Place steve jobs in charge of GM..
3). give HIM the $$, watch what he does.

[heelsguy]

A correspondant on Fox News just said this:

"There's no proof that a low mileage car would sell"

Riiiight.


did you quote this correctly? are you sure he did not say "there's no proof that a HIGH mileage car would sell" ?

[Pax Britannia]

did you quote this correctly?

Yep. He went on to say that GM had been making trucks and Suv's for years and given the recent fall in gas prices he doubted low mileage vehicles would matter that much to people.

[Archangel]

2). Place steve jobs in charge of GM.

So he can make gay, pastel coloured, over-priced pieces of iShit only women and homos would buy?

The fuck does a bloke who sells computers based on "trendiness" know about cars?

[satandole666]

1). cut the $73/hour avg wage(including benefits) to around $40. still not too shabby.


I've been on an assembly line (Semi's at Navistar) and I have to say that $73 per hour is a ridiculous amount to pay people. The job is not that difficult and maybe 1/10 or 1/15 spots on the line are physically demanding .

If I had to guess what the job is actually worth in the Central Ohio area it'd probably be around $12-14 per hour starting. Oddly enough, this is what the Honda plant here pays people. They don't have a union either.

There's a guy at Navistar in Springfield who has been there 50+ years. He drives a golf cart around all day, delivering minor parts and supplies, and gets paid over $60 an hour to do it.

I don't want to be a Union hater but it is hard not to point the finger when it comes to the auto industry.

[Abnormal]

I came in on this a bit late but I say let GM fall. I don't care which UAW goons get hurt or about the companies that supply them. I am selfish and want to buy a house. The further the slump goes the better for me. Nobody ever bailed me out.

I know there are all kinds of reasons I am wrong about my view on this. If there is one reason that I have for wanting to see them fail is that I am a smug prick and just don't have any empathy in me.

I am in a very strong position relative to some of the people feeling the pinch. The more people are feeling the heat, the more value I can go find out there. I say let's be compassionate conservatives and just let them starve.

It isn't my problem and doesn't change my life so why exactly should I care?

[heelsguy]

So he can make gay, pastel coloured, over-priced pieces of iShit only women and homos would buy?

The fuck does a bloke who sells computers based on "trendiness" know about cars?

fuck the computers, I am talking about I-pods and the fact that he invented something that almost every person in america under age 50 finds indispensible.

Apple is fucking brilliant at re-thinking design and function. GM needs someone of that vein who comes in and says "wait a minute. who says we have to do it such-and-such way, just because we always have?"

but the cost of a GM car is $2000 more just because of UAW. That is 2000.00 more that honda and toyota can put inside the car in the form of neat amenities.

[Yelram]

Um, the Jetta aside, the VWs on sale in the US are made in Europe, actually. But they are gonna build a major plant in Tennessee in the next years.

Also, people who buy GM products have been told for decades that to be a real American, you have to drive something that's at least 20ft long.

Bugs too. 2/3s of the VWs sold in America are made in Mexico. And the other ones hardly sell.

I finally realized what the original comment about "low mileage" car means, and that is that it can only go 100 miles on a charge (referring to the volt). I just dont understand why we cant get diesel cars here. Whats the fucking hold up? I drive a diesel and I love it, the fuel economy, the torque, ~600 miles to a tank with an automatic transmission, its great. And theres just no way we are going to get off of burning oil, we just have to find a different place to get the oil from. Rudolph Diesel originally intended for farmers to be able to produce their own fuel from crops, such as peanuts. Why we havent invested money in producing biodiesel from algae, I just know.

[heelsguy]

Bugs too. 2/3s of the VWs sold in America are made in Mexico. And the other ones hardly sell.

I finally realized what the original comment about "low mileage" car means, and that is that it can only go 100 miles on a charge (referring to the volt). I just dont understand why we cant get diesel cars here. Whats the fucking hold up? I drive a diesel and I love it, the fuel economy, the torque, ~600 miles to a tank with an automatic transmission, its great. And theres just no way we are going to get off of burning oil, we just have to find a different place to get the oil from. Rudolph Diesel originally intended for farmers to be able to produce their own fuel from crops, such as peanuts. Why we havent invested money in producing biodiesel from algae, I just know.

thank you for finally clearing that up. I thought I was taking crazy pills. I thought it was about gas mileage...

[Gary_Busey]

Just curious, what's the mpg difference between the EPA standards and the European standards?

[Claydon]

fuck the computers, I am talking about I-pods and the fact that he invented something that almost every person in america under age 50 finds indispensible.

Apple is fucking brilliant at re-thinking design and function. GM needs someone of that vein who comes in and says "wait a minute. who says we have to do it such-and-such way, just because we always have?"

but the cost of a GM car is $2000 more just because of UAW. That is 2000.00 more that honda and toyota can put inside the car in the form of neat amenities.

QFT

however, I am sure arch prefers the Zune...so he can 'squirt' an mp3 to another Zune....if only there were other Zune's to squirt too?!

[Abnormal]

Just curious, what's the mpg difference between the EPA standards and the European standards?


In Europe there are some standards and in the USA you have GM. That is the difference.

[Swurgen]

I have yet to hear a good answer to the following question: Why is the financial sector worthy of a $700 million bail-out, but the automotive industry, which accounts for 1 in 10 American jobs, not worthy of a $25 bail-out?

I was against the first bail-out and I am against the automobile industry bail-out, but I want to understand why one merits bailing out, yet another major industry asking for 1/28 as much does not.

Can ya' help a brotha out here?

Because one is a bailout of greedy white collar people (acceptable). The other is a bailout of greedy blue collar people (boo, hiss).

[Archangel]

QFT

however, I am sure arch prefers the Zune...so he can 'squirt' an mp3 to another Zune....if only there were other Zune's to squirt too?!

My mp3 player is an antediluvian Sony on its last legs.

But if you people want to drive pastel music players, be my guests. I'll go on preferring AMGs.

[Morfin]

I have yet to hear a good answer to the following question: Why is the financial sector worthy of a $700 million bail-out, but the automotive industry, which accounts for 1 in 10 American jobs, not worthy of a $25 bail-out?

I was against the first bail-out and I am against the automobile industry bail-out, but I want to understand why one merits bailing out, yet another major industry asking for 1/28 as much does not.

Can ya' help a brotha out here?

Because one is a bailout of greedy white collar people (acceptable). The other is a bailout of greedy blue collar people (boo, hiss).

I think this is part of it. Over the past couple days, I have forced myself to listen to Detroit-area talk radio (I fucking hate talk radio) just to hear what was being said, and I have listened to some of the hearings and comments by Congress.

My conclusion is this: Congress took a lot of heat (justifiably) for giving the big bail-outs to AIG, and the investment banks. Now, the car companies, with absolutely horrid timing, come calling. The car companies have become the perfect whipping boy for Congress. Everyone dislikes the car companies, everyone perceives that they produce crappy cars, everyone perceives that they are poorly-managed. So, in order to create the appearance to their constituents that they are tough and fiscally-minded, they are telling the car companies "NO," and lambasting them for flying in private jets.

Looking at the facts, no one can justify not helping the auto industry given the size of the financial industry bail-out. But, politically, the car companies came too late. If they had come in August, prior to the financial crisis, we might have seen them get bailed-out and the financial guys skewered on TV.

Putting all that aside, I listened to Keith Crain this morning and his view is that Ford is going to rise out of this in good shape because they prepared for the worst and stockpiled a lot of cash, which will give them more time that the other companies. Further, Ford has good, high-mileage cars selling in other parts of the world and they will be able to bring those to the U.S., so they are in a much better position than GM which has no such capability.

Being from the Detroit area, I can only say that this is going to be really ugly here.

[Archangel]

Putting all that aside, I listened to Keith Crain this morning and his view is that Ford is going to rise out of this in good shape because they prepared for the worst and stockpiled a lot of cash, which will give them more time that the other companies. Further, Ford has good, high-mileage cars selling in other parts of the world and they will be able to bring those to the U.S., so they are in a much better position than GM which has no such capability.

Ahem.


Ford have got it easier. While they still have to invest in the future, for now they just have to get rid of the Expeditions and Tauruses, and re-tool to build what their European/Australian branches have been building. It's still a gamble, but I'm guessing that there are quite a few Americans who might be positively surprised at a Ford that's actually better than a Mercedes...

They also just sold a lot of their stake in Mazda, raising even more cash.

[One Under]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/chinese-want-to-buy-the-b_b_144920.html

[Archangel]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/chinese-want-to-buy-the-b_b_144920.html

They would gain instant access to the world's markets with accepted brands, and proven technology.


Say what? American brands are "accepted" nowhere except North America and developing countries (where driving any POS is a status symbol in itself); and "proven technology"? As in, "stuck in the 1940s"?

[Claydon]

How to define 'viability'
Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi insisted in a joint press conference that executives of Ford, General Motors and Chrysler must present a business plan after Thanksgiving.

On Dec. 2, Democratic leaders will begin hearings to judge those plans. The buzzword that Reid and Pelosi kept using as they faced a horde of reporters Thursday was “viability.”

Reid said it would be up to Dodd and House Financial Services Committee chairman Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., to judge what “viability” was and whether the automakers had it.

When a reporter asked Dodd if he and Frank had a common understanding of how “viability” could be determined, Dodd joked, patting his heart, “It’s all right here.”

Dodd said the plans that will be submitted by the Big Three would be analogous to a firm approaching a venture capitalist and presenting a business plan. The taxpayers are the venture capitalists, Dodd said. “They are coming to us to submit a plan on what they’re going to do if we decide to invest,” he told reporters.

But how to define “viability”?

Dodd replied, “Well, I don’t know; that’s a great question. Obviously those are the important issues and we’ll have to sort that out ourselves.”

Asked whether GM for example, would have to tell Congress what product lines it would phase out and what new models it would unveil over the next few years, Dodd replied, “Certainly we want to hear about retooling and reorganization. There will be some detail to this. We are going to want to get as much of a sense (as possible) of where this industry is heading.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27827392/

This is a portion of an article on msnbc about the bail out of the auto industry. They are going to rely on senator dodd and rep. barney frank to determine what the best business model/course of action. wow, jsut fucking wow, give the two biggest cock suckers in the congress this kind of leverage. this nation is fucking doomed.

[heelsguy]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27827392/

This is a portion of an article on msnbc about the bail out of the auto industry. They are going to rely on senator dodd and rep. barney frank to determine what the best business model/course of action. wow, jsut fucking wow, give the two biggest cock suckers in the congress this kind of leverage. this nation is fucking doomed.

the highlighted part of your post may be the truest statement I have heard in a month or so

[Claydon]

until one of these faggots (ceo, congressman, senator, whatever) says, if we get (or if we give you) this money then you will have to do away with the Union, it will just fail.

[Ace Rockola]

They have to give away with the CEO's too. I was reading in the paper yesterday that the three CEO's claimed that their woes were because of a bad economy and not mismanagement. Obviously the sole reason wasn't mismanagement, but mismanagement had a huge part in it. Maybe these guys would have more support if they owned up to their own mistakes, and not stammer or change the topic when asked how much they would cut their pay if they get bailed out.

[Debo]

I have yet to hear a good answer to the following question: Why is the financial sector worthy of a $700 million bail-out, but the automotive industry, which accounts for 1 in 10 American jobs, not worthy of a $25 bail-out?

I was against the first bail-out and I am against the automobile industry bail-out, but I want to understand why one merits bailing out, yet another major industry asking for 1/28 as much does not.

Can ya' help a brotha out here?

I will take a stab at this. Before I begin, I was originally against the TARP plan, but I changed my position when I learned about the carnage that occured in the commercial paper market. I am normally 100% against government involvement in the business community, but I feel that Paulson made the right call doing what he did. Whether or not it produces the results that he intended it to remains to be seen.

A functioning, sound banking system is important because without it business as usual will not exist. The public will only leave their deposits in a bank if they feel comfortable that it is not going to collapse and take their savings down with them. If the banks do not have deposits, they cannot lend money. If there isn't any money to lend, businesses cannot borrow to grow their business.

In a sense the banking industry is a house of cards, and it is fine as long as people have faith in the system. When people lose faith, a run on the bank occurs. When a run occurs, loans are called in (Which usually cannot be paid off right away) or lines of credit are halted. Both have a detrimental effect on the business community.

What Paulson and Co. tried to do was prevent a run on every bank in the country (By allowing the banks to borrow directly from the Fed since the interbanking market ceased to exist), which is the exact opposite of what the government did in the 1930s. Back then, the Fed constricted the money supply and the government sat idly while the entire banking sector imploded. To my knowledge, this is one of the events that kicked off the Great Depression.

So, Paulson and Co. tried to recapitalize the banks to restore faith in the banking system. It ha worked to an extent (Measured by the TED-LIBOR spread). But the banks still have problems because they have a ton of shitty Level III assets on their balance sheet. Until they write these assets down and take in more capital to replentish their capital base, the banking system is going to stay on the ropes. Just look at Citi.

To your question about the Big 3 and their desire for funds. They are in a different situation. The US consumer has rejected their product for decades and it has come to the point where their business is no longer sustainable because of their product line. Why is it that BMW, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Audi, Hyndai, etc. are not in the same boat as the Big 3? They are are being affected by the credit crunch. They all are being affected by the recession. Yet, only the Big 3 are on their death bed. Interesting.

The Big 3 and the UAW created this problem decades ago when management agreed to pay their workers more than should, when they agreed to pay people not to work and when they agreed to pay for pension plans that they cannot afford. Now they are paying the price for it.

Tell me, what is $25bn going to do to fix GM's cost gap? Congress wants a plan from them, what kind of plan are they going to give to Congress? A sales pitch about how great the Volt is? The Volt is a POS. They want to charge $40K for it, but consumers are already telling them that they aren't willing to pay that much so they successfully lobbied congress for a $7,500 a car tax credit to help stimulate demand for it. They could have cut the price by $7,500, but then they would lose their tail on every car that they sold. Only GM...

The only way the GM is going to save itself is if they file for bankruptcy, set their UAW contracts on fire, empty the jobs banks and cut half of their work force. Anything less only prolongs the inevitable. They are zombies.

Here is GM's CEO taking his case to the public. From the WSJ:

Why GM Deserves Support

Short-term government backing can preserve a vital industry.

By RICK WAGONER (http://online.wsj.com/search/search_center.html?KEYWORDS=RICK+WAGONER&ARTICLESEARCHQUERY_PARSER=bylineAND)

Much has been said about the impact of the credit crisis on U.S. auto makers, and whether or not the government should assist the industry during this extraordinary financial turmoil. In these discussions, many critics simply ignore the substantial changes that U.S. auto companies have already made -- changes much like those the critics are calling for as part of any aid package.
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-CR801_oj_wag_D_20081118190415.jpg Associated PressRick Wagoner



At General Motors, we have been responding to fierce competition here and abroad by transforming our business. Over the past decade, we have taken tough actions to cut costs, at the same time investing billions in fuel-efficient vehicles and new generations of advanced propulsion technologies.


On the cost-cutting side, we have been streamlining our U.S. operations while simultaneously improving quality and productivity. Since 2000, we have reduced our U.S. hourly workforce by 52%, from 133,000 to 64,000, through buyouts and other programs. During the same period, we have cut our U.S. salaried employment from 44,000 to fewer than 30,000, and reduced our U.S. executive ranks by 45%.


However, we know we cannot just slash our way to prosperity. We have closed the quality and productivity gaps with the imports, as confirmed by J.D. Power and Associates (the consumer ratings firm) and the Harbour Report (which benchmarks North American plant-floor performance). New GM product programs launched earlier this decade have produced award-winning cars and crossovers like the Saturn Aura, Cadillac CTS and Buick Enclave. And that is just the beginning.


The new Chevy Malibu is a clear response to critics who say that GM cannot build cars that customers want. The Malibu leads its segment in highway fuel economy at 33 mpg (2009 EPA figures), and was named best midsize car for initial quality in the most recent J.D. Power and Associates study. No surprise that, even in the worst car market in decades, Malibu sales are up 39% so far this year.


GM has also been working to re-establish its leadership in advanced propulsion technology. We have committed to producing the Chevy Volt -- a revolutionary car that can go 40 miles on electricity alone -- in 2010 in a U.S. factory. We are expanding our family of hybrid vehicles, investing in advanced biofuels, and continuing development of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles. We are also applying our global technical resources to improve the fuel economy of conventional vehicles. Just one example: The new Chevy Cruze, a global compact car that goes into production in Ohio in 2010, is expected to lead its segment in fuel economy.


GM's commitment to these new products and technologies will help everyone. Consumers will benefit from lower fuel costs, our nation will use less imported petroleum, and our air will become cleaner. Development and production of these new vehicles here in the U.S. will maintain our nation's competitive standing and provide good paying jobs here at home. It also ensures that the U.S. does not trade its current dependence on imported oil for a future dependence on imported batteries and technology.


The auto industry may be historically anchored in Detroit, but it reaches into every state and community in our nation. Take Kansas, for example. GM assembles the Malibu and the Saturn Aura in Fairfax, Kan., making us a major employer there. The wages of our 2,500 workers flow into that community through spending on everything from mortgage payments to high-school bake sales.


Fairfax is not unusual. U.S.-based companies have 105 assembly and component plants in 20 states, including California, Texas, Louisiana and Maryland, states not typically thought of as auto country. GM, Ford and Chrysler last year purchased $156 billion in parts, materials and services, supporting jobs in all 50 states.


Because of GM's deep commitment to its employees, dealers and communities, the company has been restructuring itself without the storm and drama some pundits mistake for actual progress. Working with the UAW, we have transformed our labor agreements to close the competitive gap. We have taken $9 billion out of our annual structural costs since 2005 alone, and we have substantially reduced legacy costs inherited from decades past. In the face of the current credit crisis, we have moved to improve our liquidity by $20 billion through 2009 through cuts in salaried employment, capital spending and other areas.


The future of the domestic auto business is critical to the health of the U.S. economy. It is a vital engine of economic growth and a foundation of economic stability. It remains a path of upward mobility for millions of American families. For America to compete in the global marketplace in the 21st century, it needs a strong manufacturing base and a vital domestic auto industry.


Nearly a half-century ago President Kennedy declared that his generation of Americans was living in extraordinary times and facing extraordinary challenges. Our times are no less challenging. They demand solutions that are creative and courageous.


Short-term government support to bridge the current financial crisis will enable GM to continue as an engine for prosperity and as a creator of vehicles and technologies that America needs. Such assistance will save millions of jobs now, and produce enormous benefits for years to come.

Mr. Wagoner is chairman and CEO of General Motors Corp.

[Debo]

Say what? American brands are "accepted" nowhere except North America and developing countries (where driving any POS is a status symbol in itself); and "proven technology"? As in, "stuck in the 1940s"?

GM actually does decent business outside of the US. It is their domestic business that is killing them.

[freegood]

Here's a nice post from another forum on the pros/cons of a bankruptcy.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f12/gms-wagoner-no-plans-bankruptcy-filing-71157/#post1558139

1. They could get out from underneath their massive debt and restructure it to be less of a burden on operations
2. All contracts with the UAW will be null and void, GM could create new labor agreements
3. GM would revoke dealer franchise agreements from hundreds and probably thousands of under performing dealers. Under state franchise law,this can only be done during a bankruptcy.
4. Some assets would be sold off to pay debt.
5. Production would slow and probably come to a stop for a least a month, maybe more.
6. Warranty payments to dealers would halt until restructuring is done. This means no warranty work on vehicles (unless dealers want to foot the bill until GM pays them)

In short all these could be positive for GM. They could come back with very nice labor agreements, 2000 less dealer, lower debt, and fewer car lines. They could become lean and mean very quickly.

The downside however is very down. Hundreds of thousands of jobs lost directly and indirectly. The stigma of filing for bankruptcy would damage existing GM sales so much they may not recover for years. GM would have to halt production for months, leaving dealers high and dry on product.

These are the reason GM wants to avoid bankruptcy even though long run its probably in their best interest.

An airline can go bankrupt and you'd still probably fly it the next week. Would you buy Chevy if GM was bankrupt and you may not have a dealer in your small town, or may not be able to get warranty work done because all warranty payments have been halted until the bankruptcy is over.... and what if GM were never to recover... A lot of people would think its not safe to buy a GM vehicle.


Foreign car companies are okay with a bailout (http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/nov2008/gb20081119_275356.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index +-+temp_top+story) if only because the ripple effect will ruin the parts suppliers they share. Advertising dollars will also be significantly slashed. (http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=981992)

Furthermore, even if these guys don't die from Chapter 7 protection, I get the feeling that the stigma of a bankruptcy would be a kiss of death to the brands among American consumers for around a decade.

Hollowing out our manufacturing sector (and it could be an abrupt one with massive layoffs and factory foreclosures) is not good for our long term prosperity. Any delusion of a service dominated economy should've been shot to hell after the discovery that Wall Street artificially over-inflated the price of everything they got their hands on.

And the mere possibility of driving a Tata Motors produced Cadillac should put shivers in the back of any American's spine.

[Archangel]

GM actually does decent business outside of the US. It is their domestic business that is killing them.

By selling Daewoos, Holdens, Opels and Vauxhalls. I'll make you a bet: Go outside the US and don't eat before you've seen a Pontiac or a Buick. You'll make David Blaine look like Face.

Nobody buys American cars. The fact that some European/Asian marques are owned by American companies doesn't change that simple fact.

[Debo]

By selling Daewoos, Holdens, Opels and Vauxhalls. I'll make you a bet: Go outside the US and don't eat before you've seen a Pontiac or a Buick. You'll make David Blaine look like Face.

Nobody buys American cars. The fact that some European/Asian marques are owned by American companies doesn't change that simple fact.

I didn't say that they sold their shitty cars overseas. I just said that their international business is better than their domestic business.

[Swurgen]

until one of these faggots (ceo, congressman, senator, whatever) says, if we get (or if we give you) this money then you will have to do away with the Union, it will just fail.

That's it...keep blaming the assembly line guys for upper mgmt's lack of innovation, poor styling, and having no balls. It's their fault. We're all lucky that upper mgmt has those millions in annual salary and perks to eke by in these trying times so they'll be ready to re-fuck up whichever iteration of these companies emerges on the other side of this shithole.

[Debo]

until one of these faggots (ceo, congressman, senator, whatever) says, if we get (or if we give you) this money then you will have to do away with the Union, it will just fail.

That's it...keep blaming the assembly line guys for upper mgmt's lack of innovation, poor styling, and having no balls. It's their fault. We're all lucky that upper mgmt has those millions in annual salary and perks to eke by in these trying times so they'll be ready to re-fuck up whichever iteration of these companies emerges on the other side of this shithole.

Is upper management's year-end bonus the cause of the cost gap too? Do the executives at Toyota, Honda, BMW, and every other car company forgo their annual bonus just to make them more efficient than GM? I think not.

The UAW is a cancer and it is killing Detroit.

[Claydon]

I proudly drive a Nissan Sentra that was built in Mississippi without the fucking union.

Probably why it is of decent quality, and gets 36 mpg.

[Morfin]

You guys are both right. The UAW took all it could and sucked all chance of any profit out of the companies. Meanwhile, the executives and their short-sighted policies doomed the companies.

This is why I am against a bail-out. The American car industry needs to be rebooted. They can still exist, but it has to be in a totally different form. Bail-outs are like cold-capsules: They take care of the symptoms and don't do anything to fight the virus.

[Swurgen]

until one of these faggots (ceo, congressman, senator, whatever) says, if we get (or if we give you) this money then you will have to do away with the Union, it will just fail.

That's it...keep blaming the assembly line guys for upper mgmt's lack of innovation, poor styling, and having no balls. It's their fault. We're all lucky that upper mgmt has those millions in annual salary and perks to eke by in these trying times so they'll be ready to re-fuck up whichever iteration of these companies emerges on the other side of this shithole.

Is upper management's year-end bonus the cause of the cost gap too? Do the executives at Toyota, Honda, BMW, and every other car company forgo their annual bonus just to make them more efficient than GM? I think not.

The UAW is a cancer and it is killing Detroit.

And how many unnecessary layers of shitty suits lie between an innovative leader with balls at the American carmakers (if one existed) vs the foreign companies? It's not like the American cars are great designs but just too expensive. Nobody said that the UAW was exempt of blame but some people forget about all the suits that do far more to fuck the company up on an individual basis than any assembly line worker possibly could. Kids come out of engineering and design schools every year with potentially brilliant ideas and yet outside of some lower production models here and there, the American cars are bland as hell.

[Swurgen]

I proudly drive a Nissan Sentra that was built in Mississippi without the fucking union.

Probably why it is of decent quality, and gets 36 mpg.

Don't forget you're also proudly a pretentious twit who has unjustifiably high opinion of himself.

[Morfin]

I proudly drive a Nissan Sentra that was built in Mississippi without the fucking union.

Probably why it is of decent quality, and gets 36 mpg.

I would never buy anything built by people from Mississippi. These people sign their paychecks with an X.

[Debo]

until one of these faggots (ceo, congressman, senator, whatever) says, if we get (or if we give you) this money then you will have to do away with the Union, it will just fail.

That's it...keep blaming the assembly line guys for upper mgmt's lack of innovation, poor styling, and having no balls. It's their fault. We're all lucky that upper mgmt has those millions in annual salary and perks to eke by in these trying times so they'll be ready to re-fuck up whichever iteration of these companies emerges on the other side of this shithole.

Is upper management's year-end bonus the cause of the cost gap too? Do the executives at Toyota, Honda, BMW, and every other car company forgo their annual bonus just to make them more efficient than GM? I think not.

The UAW is a cancer and it is killing Detroit.

And how many unnecessary layers of shitty suits lie between an innovative leader with balls at the American carmakers (if one existed) vs the foreign companies? It's not like the American cars are great designs but just too expensive. Nobody said that the UAW was exempt of blame but some people forget about all the suits that do far more to fuck the company up on an individual basis than any assembly line worker possibly could. Kids come out of engineering and design schools every year with potentially brilliant ideas and yet outside of some lower production models here and there, the American cars are bland as hell.

I don't disagree that GM is run like shit. But, even good management is going to have a hard time running GM when they have zero labor flexibility.

If you want to fire half of middle management, you won't see me shed a tear. But without taking the fight to the unions, you are going to lose the war.

[Morfin]

Regardless of the explanation for why GM and the others are in financial straits, the question remains, Congress opened the door to bail-outs of AIG, Citigroup, the investment banking community, why not the auto industry?

Congress said the investment banking community and AIG were "too big to let fail," what about an industry that affects so many people directly (the 1 in 10 jobs statistic), and so many people indirectly?