The Death of the American Idea

[Da Raider]

An electorate living high off the entitlement hog.

Give me liberty or give me death!”

“Live free or die!”

What's that? Oh, don't mind me. I'm just trying out slogans for the 2012 campaign and seeing which one would get the biggest laughs.

My Republican friends are now saying, oh, not to worry, look at the exit polls, this is still a “center-right” country. Americans didn't vote to go left, they voted to go cool. It was a Dancing With The Stars election: Obama's a star and everyone wants to dance with him. It doesn't mean they're suddenly gung-ho for left-wingery.

Up to a point. Unlike those excitable countries where the peasants overrun the presidential palace, settled democratic societies rarely vote to “go left.” Yet oddly enough that's where they've all gone. In its assumptions about the size of the state and the role of government, almost every advanced nation is more left than it was, and getting lefter. Even in America, federal spending (in inflation-adjusted 2007 dollars) has gone from $600 billion in 1965 to $3 trillion today. The Heritage Foundation put it in a convenient graph: It's pretty much a straight line across four decades, up, up, up. Doesn't make any difference who controls Congress, who's in the White House. The government just grows and grows, remorselessly. Every two years, the voters walk out of their town halls and school gyms and tell the exit pollsters that three-quarters of them are “moderates” or “conservatives” (ie, the center and the right) and barely 20 per cent are “liberals.” And then, regardless of how the vote went, big government just resumes its inexorable growth.

“The greatest dangers to liberty,” wrote Justice Brandeis, “lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.”

Now who does that remind you of?

Ha! Trick question! Never mind Obama, it's John McCain. He encroached on our liberties with the constitutional abomination of McCain-Feingold. Well-meaning but without understanding, he proposed that the federal government buy up all these junk mortgages so that people would be able to stay in “their” homes. And this is the “center-right” candidate? It's hard for Republicans to hammer Obama as a socialist when their own party's nationalizing the banks and its presidential nominee is denouncing the private sector for putting profits before patriotism. That's why Joe the Plumber struck a chord: he briefly turned a one-and-a-half party election back into a two-party choice again.

If you went back to the end of the 19th century and suggested to, say, William McKinley that one day Americans would find themselves choosing between a candidate promising to guarantee your mortgage and a candidate promising to give “tax cuts” to millions of people who pay no taxes he would scoff at you for concocting some patently absurd H G Wells dystopian fantasy. Yet it happened. Slowly, remorselessly, government metastasized to the point where it now seems entirely normal for Peggy Joseph of Sarasota, Florida to vote for Obama because “I won't have to worry about putting gas in my car. I won't have to worry about paying my mortgage.”

While few electorates consciously choose to leap left, a couple more steps every election and eventually societies reach a tipping point. In much of the west, it's government health care. It changes the relationship between state and citizen into something closer to pusher and junkie. Henceforth, elections are fought over which party is proposing the shiniest government bauble: If you think President-elect Obama's promise of federally subsidized day care was a relatively peripheral part of his platform, in Canada in the election before last it was the dominant issue. Yet America may be approaching its tipping point even more directly. In political terms, the message of the gazillion-dollar bipartisan bailout was a simple one: “Individual responsibility” and “self-reliance” are for chumps. If Goldman Sachs and AIG and Bear Stearns are getting government checks to “stay in their homes” (and boardrooms, and luxury corporate retreats), why shouldn't Peggy Joseph?

I don't need Barack Obama's help to “spread the wealth around.” I spread my wealth around every time I hire somebody, expand my business, or just go to the general store and buy a quart of milk and loaf of bread. As far as I know, only one bloated plutocrat declines to spread his wealth around, and that's Scrooge McDuck, whose principal activity in Disney cartoons was getting into his little bulldozer and plowing back and forth over a mountain of warehoused gold and silver coins. Don't know where he is these days. On the board at Halliburton, no doubt. But most of the beleaguered band of American capitalists do not warehouse their wealth in McDuck fashion. It's not a choice between hoarding and spreading, but a choice between who spreads it best: an individual free to make his own decisions about investment and spending, or Barney Frank. I don't find that a difficult question to answer. More to the point, put Barney & Co in charge of the spreading, and there'll be a lot less to spread.

I disagree with my fellow conservatives who think the Obama-Pelosi-Reid-Frank liberal behemoth will so obviously screw up that they'll be routed in two or four years' time. The President-elect's so-called “tax cut” will absolve 48 per cent of Americans from paying any federal income tax at all, while those that are left will pay more. Just under half the population will be, as Daniel Henninger pointed out in the Wall Street Journal, on the dole. By 2012, it will be more than half, and this will be an electorate where the majority of the electorate will be able to vote itself more lollipops from the minority of their compatriots still dumb enough to prioritize self-reliance, dynamism, and innovation over the sedating cocoon of the nanny state. That is the death of the American idea — which, after all, began as an economic argument: “No taxation without representation" is a great rallying cry. “No representation without taxation” has less mass appeal. For how do you tell an electorate living high off the entitlement hog that it's unsustainable and you've got to give some of it back?

At that point, America might as well apply for honorary membership in the European Union. It will be a nation at odds with the spirit of its founding, and embarking on decline from which there are few escape routes. In 2012, the least we deserve is a choice between the collectivist assumptions of the Democrats, and a candidate who stands for individual liberty — for economic dynamism not the sclerotic “managed capitalism” of Germany; for the First Amendment, not Canadian-style government regulation of approved opinion; for self-reliance and the Second Amendment, not the security state in which Britons are second only to North Koreans in the number of times they're photographed by government cameras in the course of going about their daily business. In Forbes this week, Claudia Rosett issued a stirring defense of individual liberty. That it should require a stirring defense at all is a melancholy reflection on this election season. Live free — or die from a thousand beguiling caresses of nanny-state sirens.

© Mark Steyn 2008

[taters]

Black man gets elected, and every conservative from here to alabama screams its the death of america.

It is. Its also the birth of new America, which, like old america thrives off the actual premise that ANYONE can achieve and live happily and freely. Not the formerly understood status quo of 'anyone can theoretically acheive, but only _____ (take your pick, white, rich, male, christian, straight, healthy etc) really can achieve and life free and happily'.

Welcome to new america, were the poor are not animals, where minorities are just as equal as everyone else, and where civil liberties and rights are acknowledged and respected, not ignored and trampled.

We new americans can thank our 'old american' parents for giving birth to this nation. Bush, Reagan, Gringrich, Lott, Cheney, Nixon...they all lead up to here, proving what NOT to do to run a fair and equal nation. American Conservatives alienated so many and pushed america so far, that it has had no other choice than to bounce back the other way. We drifted way past 'center right' a long time ago, but the rightists were so full of themselves that they still saw the country as too far left. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

I love how that article assumes, even after the tremendous ass whipping republicans and conservatives have had in the last 2 elections, and the fact that 6 of the past 8 elections (congressional and presidential) have been split down the middle (with one clear to repubs, and another *this one* clear to dems), that 'most electorates dont consciously choose to leap left'? Serious??

Conservatives are so sure of themselves that they now not only think that they are the only real americans, but they are the only political ideal in the land. How many more elections will we (everyone else) take from them before they change their minds? IF it were up to me, ALL of them. Judging from conservative egos we are all seeing now and saw in 06, It will at least be a good number. OBAMA 2012/BIDEN 2016!

[hatepoppy]

always about black people, isnt it, you racist fuck?

[taters]

always about black people, isnt it, you racist fuck?

Wow, you read the first sentence of my post. READ THE POST. At least one paragraph. Any of the paragraphs. It wasnt about race.

[Limp]

If this is New America... can we change the name?

BTW... New Mexico sucks just as much as Old Mexico.

[Claydon]

tater you stupid fuck, reagan did more for black poverty, and minority poverty by assisting in the creation of an economy that had obscene amounts of growth. the only difference now is that dipshits like on that youtube video truly believe that with a political shift they will get free gasoline and free mortgages. But hey, if the government assisted in the creation of the mortgage disaster...I cannot wait until I see what they do next for the black peoples!

[Rover]

The author doesn't even mention race once. He attacks it from a solely idealogical argument and Tater runs in to scream everyones a racist.

[The Batman]

If this is New America... can we change the name?

BTW... New Mexico sucks just as much as Old Mexico.

While we are at it lets change the names of West Virginia, North Carolina, North Dakota. And then get rid of Utah.

[Claydon]

I believe the most intolerant and racist people I have ever met are blacks, and mexicans. Furthermore, it is starting to become apparent that the passage of Prop 8 in california was in no small part due to large numbers of blacks and mexicans going to the polls in record numbers. So I guess they feel that passage of civil rights is great for them but not for teh gheys.

[taters]

tater you stupid fuck, reagan did more for black poverty, and minority poverty by assisting in the creation of an economy that had obscene amounts of growth.
The author doesn't even mention race once. He attacks it from a solely idealogical argument and Tater runs in to scream everyones a racist.


Claydon and Rover, did you read that whole post, or do you skim for the words reagan with every page you go to?


1-MYPOST WAS NOT ABOUT RACE!!!! Read past the first fucking sentence people.

You make yourselves look like fucking morons when you dont even read more than the first sentence of a post before replying to it. The first sentence had a joke reference to race that DID NOT EVEN APPLY TO THE REST OF THE POST.

But, Claydon, since you managed to get a laugh out of me, Ill humor you with a response

2- REAGAN increased poverty in america to DANGEROUS levels with his economic policies of reducing aid to the poor in all faucets, cutting unemployment, resisting the minimum wage increases, and (more than anything else) redefining the government definition of poverty from someone making 18k a year to someone making 13k a year. That means any making 13,001 dollars a year received no aid under his admin and was officially 'not poor'.

As someone who was alive (though young) and whos family WAS extremely impoverished during the reagan regime, I can personally say this man did NOTHING to help the poor. His Voodoo economics and Trickle down economic claims have been proven to be myths by all objective economists (including most foreign schools). Dont buy into the hype.

[hatepoppy]

Wow, you read the first sentence of my post. READ THE POST. At least one paragraph. Any of the paragraphs. It wasnt about race.
the article talked shit about so called republicans the whole time. it didnt have anything to do w race, or really even the presidency. how yoru first thought and statement was 'black man elected, white people cry bloody murder" in response to an article criticising big government is beyond me.

its your fixation on race that makes me call you a racist. go blow paul mooney.

[Limp]

tater telling someone to not buy the hype....

L.U.L.Z!

[Claydon]

but hey its ok right tater, because you can now get free cable tv, the clouds will break, the red sea will part as obama guides his people to the promised land...

Barack Obama may have helped California Proposition 8 gay marriage ban pass
Gay marriage will be banned in California after voters turning out to back Barack Obama gave their assent to a motion known as Proposition 8.

By Matthew Moore
Last Updated: 6:47AM GMT 06 Nov 2008
Around 70 per cent of the African-American voters who overwhelmingly backed Mr Obama also approved Proposition 8, helping pass the controversial ballot measure despite a small majority of whites voting against the ban on same-sex unions. Hispanic and Asian voters were split on the issue.
The state's black turnout jumped to 10 per cent of the electorate, up from 6 per cent in 2004, as voters inspired by Mr Obama flocked to the polls for the first time. The Democratic candidate took the state with 61 per cent of the popular vote.
Although the president-elect opposed the gay marriage ban, it appears his supporters may have helped pass the measure that was vociferously opposed by many white Democrats.
The news is a blow to gay rights campaigners, who had hoped California would be the vanguard for the legalisation of same-sex marriage across the US. More than 18,000 homosexual couples have wed in the state since its supreme court allowed gay marriages earlier this year. The status of those unions is now in doubt.
On the day that Mr Obama swept to power, voters handed a number of defeats to gay campaigners.
Amendments to ban gay marriage were also approved in Arizona and Florida, and Arkansas voters approved a measure banning unmarried couples from serving as adoptive or foster parents
But gay rights campaigners, who spend tens of millions of dollars fighting to oppose Proposition 8, have vowed not to admit to defeat. A petition to dismiss the measure on the grounds that decision of such importance should be taken by state legislatures rather than voters has already been filed to the Supreme Court.
"We pick ourselves up and trudge on," said Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights. "There has been enormous movement in favour of full equality in eight short years. That is the direction this is heading, and if it's not today or it's not tomorrow, it will be soon."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/barackobama/3388430/Barack-Obama-may-have-helped-California-Proposition-8-gay-marriage-ban-pass.html

[The Batman]

I believe the most intolerant and racist people I have ever met are blacks, and mexicans. Furthermore, it is starting to become apparent that the passage of Prop 8 in california was in no small part due to large numbers of blacks and mexicans going to the polls in record numbers. So I guess they feel that passage of civil rights is great for them but not for teh gheys.

Come on, all sides have some pretty ignorant, racist, and intolerant people. But you are right about the blacks not passing prop 8. Its a bit ironic they would vote to take someone's rights away....

[Claydon]

Come on, all sides have some pretty ignorant, racist, and intolerant people. But you are right about the blacks not passing prop 8. Its a bit ironic they would vote to take someone's rights away....

You are correct, I am willing to bet that one of the more racist of the civilized/industrialized nations of the world is Japan. And yes, the irony of blacks voting to bar people from marriage.

oh the fucking irony

[Genius]

Is it written somewhere in the job description for being a Conservative that you have to be completely defeatist, pessimistic, and cynical about anything that doesn't involve dropping a bomb on something or putting a bullet in someone? Jesus.

[The Batman]

You are correct, I am willing to bet that one of the more racist of the civilized/industrialized nations of the world is Japan. And yes, the irony of blacks voting to bar people from marriage.

oh the fucking irony

Yeah def Japan is, but thats part of their culture rather than ignorance.

[Claydon]

Is it written somewhere in the job description for being a Conservative that you have to be completely defeatist, pessimistic, and cynical about anything that doesn't involve dropping a bomb on something or putting a bullet in someone? Jesus.

Just shut the fuck up before I drop a bomb on your house and shoot your family.

[Genius]

Just shut the fuck up before I drop a bomb on your house and shoot your family.
Rainbows and unicorns and hobbits protect me.

[hatepoppy]

Is it written somewhere in the job description for being a Conservative that you have to be completely defeatist, pessimistic, and cynical about anything that doesn't involve dropping a bomb on something or putting a bullet in someone? Jesus.they just havent been able to say what they want since bush 41 was in office. the have to restrain themselves and bc pc, so they get all nice n crotchety.

[TylerDurden]

Is it written somewhere in the job description for being a Conservative that you have to be completely defeatist, pessimistic, and cynical about anything that doesn't involve dropping a bomb on something or putting a bullet in someone? Jesus.

quoted for hilarious fucking truth.

[taters]

I cant believe you had the balls to re-reply, and STILL DID NOT READ MY POST THAT YOU ARE CRITICIZING ME FOR.

the article talked shit about so called republicans the whole time. it didnt have anything to do w race, or really even the presidency. how yoru first thought and statement was 'black man elected, white people cry bloody murder" in response to an article criticising big government is beyond me.


My actual first sentence

Black man gets elected, and every conservative from here to alabama screams its the death of america.

Apparently, you dont know the definition of 'racism', just like you apparently have NO UNDERSTANDING OF WHEN A POST HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE...as exemplified when I went on to say- (Ill highlight the MAIN IDEA, but for future reference, you may want to work on your reading comprehension if you ever plan on going to college or (especially) anything above. The LSAT's and GRE's will eat you alive).

It is. Its also the birth of new America, which, like old america thrives off the actual premise that ANYONE can achieve and live happily and freely. Not the formerly understood status quo of 'anyone can theoretically acheive, but only _____ (take your pick, white, rich, male, christian, straight, healthy etc) really can achieve and life free and happily'.

Welcome to new america, were the poor are not animals, where minorities are just as equal as everyone else, and where civil liberties and rights are acknowledged and respected, not ignored and trampled.

We new americans can thank our 'old american' parents for giving birth to this nation. Bush, Reagan, Gringrich, Lott, Cheney, Nixon...they all lead up to here, proving what NOT to do to run a fair and equal nation. American Conservatives alienated so many and pushed america so far, that it has had no other choice than to bounce back the other way. We drifted way past 'center right' a long time ago, but the rightists were so full of themselves that they still saw the country as too far left. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

I love how that article assumes, even after the tremendous ass whipping republicans and conservatives have had in the last 2 elections, and the fact that 6 of the past 8 elections (congressional and presidential) have been split down the middle (with one clear to repubs, and another *this one* clear to dems), that 'most electorates dont consciously choose to leap left'? Serious??

Conservatives are so sure of themselves that they now not only think that they are the only real americans, but they are the only political ideal in the land. How many more elections will we (everyone else) take from them before they change their minds? IF it were up to me, ALL of them. Judging from conservative egos we are all seeing now and saw in 06, It will at least be a good number. OBAMA 2012/BIDEN 2016!

If you still cant read or understand that post as not to be race related, you are clearly too fucking retarded to continue this conversation with.

And CLaydon, STOP RACE BAITING THE TOPIC, DIPSHIT. The fact that you have now claimed to believe that not only are conservatives a race, but gay people as well, indicates you have NO understanding of the definition of the word.

edited - (That being said, I did not support, though could not vote against Prop 8) *though I dont support marriage for anyone*

[mongo]

taters is why i hate teh blacks.

[hatepoppy]

keep fooling yourself, bud. oh, and go blow richard pryor's flamebroiled corpse.

[Limp]

Let it be known that on this day, November 10th, that I agreed with mongo.

[taters]

keep fooling yourself, bud. oh, and go blow richard pryor's flamebroiled corpse.

Still havent read it...have you.

As I said, you dont have the sense to know that the only part of that post to have to do with race was the first sentence, which was a joke lead in to the rest of it, your a fucking retard.

You made yourself look like a fucking fool by not reading it before you choose to reply to it, then you did it again by replying again and still not reading it.

Criticizing someone for something on false pretenses is not only fucking stupid, but it reflects badly on you. It makes you look like you dont know wtf your talking about when you post (which is very clear). Maybe one day when your older youll learn that.

[Claydon]

So tater would vote for the restriction of a type of person's civil right.

AMAZING...WHAT A FUCKING RETARD.

So it was not ok to have laws about marriages for teh blacks back in the day, but HEY those lezbos and fags, we should restrict their rights to protect their property, accumulate property, exchange property, adopt children, and have power of attorney in times of need with regards to their partner.

YOU sir, have proven beyond a reasonable doubt what a complete and total intolerant, and yes racist, bigoted, unintelligent fool you truly are.

[hatepoppy]

Still havent read it...have you.

As I said, you dont have the sense to know that the only part of that post to have to do with race was the first sentence, which was a joke lead in to the rest of it, your a fucking retard.

You made yourself look like a fucking fool by not reading it before you choose to reply to it, then you did it again by replying again and still not reading it.

Criticizing someone for something on false pretenses is not only fucking stupid, but it reflects badly on you. It makes you look like you dont know wtf your talking about when you post (which is very clear). Maybe one day when your older youll learn that.

you keep talking like i didnt read the shit. i did. because i formed an opinion based on something beyond what you intend me to take away from it does not discredit my opinion. dont be so racist.

oh, and go blow frederick douglas.

[taters]

So tater would vote for the restriction of a type of person's civil right.

.

I meant I did NOT support Prop 8. Im having to retype every fucking post to get you and your buddy to read it. This time you only read the LAST sentence. You didnt see where I posted

And CLaydon, STOP RACE BAITING THE TOPIC, DIPSHIT. The fact that you have now claimed to believe that not only are conservatives a race, but gay people as well, indicates you have NO understanding of the definition of the word.

Keep trying bud, youll get it someday. You have managed to hijack this thread though.

[Limp]

YOU sir, have proven beyond a reasonable doubt what a complete and total intolerant, and yes racist, bigoted, unintelligent fool you truly are.
tater is black and cannot be a racist.

You however are a racist for calling a black man a racist.

GTFO RACIST!

[hatepoppy]

taters racist!

[taters]

you keep talking like i didnt read the shit. i did. because i formed an opinion based on something beyond what you intend me to take away from it does not discredit my opinion. dont be so racist.



Because the article does not refer to 'race' in the main at any point.

If you did read the post, and you thought it had to do with race, you have a serious issue with seeing race in everything, because nothing in that post had to do with it upfront.

That, or your just a liar. I think your a liar.

[Claydon]

Tater has proven what a intolerant jack ass he really is.

So, according to tater, those who are homosexual cannot go into a contractual agreement ie a civil union/marriage as defined by the state. So they cannot enjoy the same legal protections of property that heterosexuals enjoy. So taters sides with the Knights of Columbus, the Catholic Church, Mormon Church and Evangelicals.

A black man saying some do not deserve equal rights.....the irony here is just so thick it is choking me.

[mongo]

I think your a liar.

no wonder black people can't get in to good colleges. your stupid!

[hatepoppy]

Because the article does not refer to 'race' in the main at any point.

If you did read the post, and you thought it had to do with race, you have a serious issue with seeing race in everything, because nothing in that post had to do with it upfront.

That, or your just a liar. I think your a liar.QUIT BEING RACIST!

you only think im racist bc im white.

i dont have a problem w teh blacks. i let em rub their ass against me at the strip club at least.

[Claydon]

no wonder black people can't get in to good colleges. your stupid!

you're

[Pax Britannia]

GTFO RACIST!

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii85/Raptor08_2008/2nvffjc.gif

[Limp]

you're
Me thinks there was a reason it was bolded... Arch

[Limp]

i dont have a problem w teh blacks. i let em rub their ass against me at the strip club at least.
I fucked a black chick to prove I wasn't a racist.

Put it right in that N****'s ass.

[hatepoppy]

I fucked a black chick to prove I wasn't a racist.

Put it right in that N****'s ass.
aww yiiih.

wanna make oWt?

[Claydon]

now that tater was caught in his hypocritical bullshit perhaps he will go away...

doubtful

[mongo]

taters will stay as long as gmf is free.

or you can pay for your acct. w/ food stamps.

[Claydon]

taters will stay as long as gmf is free.

or you can pay for your acct. w/ food stamps.

Im sure obama will create a national task force and enact with the congress a fund to support the internet rights of african americans specifically to ensure equal access by means of economical support to internet message forums as a way of bridging the ever widening digital divide.

[Claydon]

can an admin go to taters post that I quoted in my sig and put it to the WAY it was. this guy is so full of shit and we all need to know what a fool he truly is.

[mongo]

yeah fuckface, admins will do anything for you.

[hatepoppy]

Im sure obama will create a national task force and enact with the congress a fund to support the internet rights of african americans specifically to ensure equal access by means of economical support to internet message forums as a way of bridging the ever widening digital divide.
leave obama out of it.

this isnt about associating all black people as one. this is about one, in particular, that is teh racistest.

[Claydon]

yeah fuckface, admins will do anything for you.

one can dream

[Claydon]

leave obama out of it.

this isnt about associating all black people as one. this is about one, in particular, that is teh racistest.

hmmm, would it be better if i said the rep. maxine waters would push for such a thing? :)

[hatepoppy]

hmmm, would it be better if i said the rep. maxine waters would push for such a thing? :)how about just not bringing it up.

just call him racist like a white man.

[Claydon]

how about just not bringing it up.

just call him racist like a white man.

damn you sir!

[taters]

Tater has proven what a intolerant jack ass he really is.

So, according to tater, those who are homosexual cannot go into a contractual agreement ie a civil union/marriage as defined by the state. So they cannot enjoy the same legal protections of property that heterosexuals enjoy. So taters sides with the Knights of Columbus, the Catholic Church, Mormon Church and Evangelicals.

A black man saying some do not deserve equal rights.....the irony here is just so thick it is choking me.


I meant I did NOT support Prop 8. Im having to retype every fucking post to get you and your buddy to read it. This time you only read the LAST sentence. You didnt see where I posted

Claydon has shown that either he suffers from selective reading syndrome, or hes mentally fucking retarded.

QUIT BEING RACIST!

you only think im racist bc im white.

Are you serious? Or just retarded?

You can only downplay the fact that youve been caught in a lie so far. You only read the first sentence of the post before replying. So did Claydon. Just admit it and Ill be done making a fool of you this day. Its not so hard.

Hell, Claydon STILL isnt even reading all the posts before replying, as seen above.

[hatepoppy]

go blow david allan coe.

...annnnnd im spent.

always fun to get off at the expense of an idiot.

<3z

[taters]

RESPONSE TO CLAYDONS CLAIM
CNN EXIT POLLS ON PROP 8 (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1)
PROP 8 vote
Vote by Race = African-American (10%)
Yes - 70%
No - 30%

7% of 10% of the vote = 7% points. No small part?

[Claydon]

7% of the 10% increase?

so the majority of the new votes voted for this law.

clap clap thanks for supporting me tater

[taters]

7% of the 10% increase?

so the majority of the new votes voted for this law.

clap clap thanks for supporting me tater

10% of TOTAL VOTE moron.

I hate arguing with high schoolers.

[Claydon]

So, I see, 10% of the state votes cast were cast by african americans who voted by a 2 to 1 margin for prop 8.

well done tater...WELL DONE!

Gays, blacks divided on Proposition 8
For many African Americans, it's not a civil rights issue.
By Cara Mia DiMassa and Jessica Garrison
November 8, 2008
For Trebor Healey, a 46-year-old gay man from Glendora, Tuesday's election was bittersweet.

He was thrilled that the nation elected its first African American president. But he was disappointed that black voters, traditionally among the most reliably liberal in the state, voted overwhelmingly to ban same-sex marriage.



He understands that there are differences between the civil rights battles of blacks and gays: For one thing, he notes, gay people have a much easier time blending in. Still, he says, he thinks it's sad that "people do not equate one civil rights struggle with another."

Many black voters didn't see it that way.

"I was born black. I can't change that," said Culver City resident Bilson Davis, 57, who voted for Proposition 8. "They weren't born gay; they chose it," he added, reflecting a commonly held belief that many researchers dispute.

Although many of the state's black political leaders spoke out against Proposition 8, an exit poll of California voters showed that black voters favored the measure by a ratio of more than 2 to 1. Not only was the black vote weighted heavily in favor of Proposition 8, but black turnout -- spurred by Barack Obama's historic campaign for president -- was unusually large, with African Americans making up roughly 10% of the state electorate.

The exit poll didn't ask voters why they voted the way they did. But Madison Shockley, pastor of Pilgrim United Church of Christ in Carlsbad and among the roughly one-third of blacks who opposed Proposition 8, said the vote was understandable. "Black folks go to church, probably more than the Caucasian population, and the churches they go to tend to be very traditional."

Los Angeles resident Christopher Hill, 50, said he was motivated by religion in supporting Proposition 8. Civil rights, he said, "are about getting a job, employment."

Gay marriage, he said, is not: "It's an abomination against God."

One complicating factor was that both sides in the campaign had plausible reason to claim Obama's support. The president-elect strongly stated his opposition to the proposition, calling it "divisive and discriminatory."

But he has also said in public speeches that he opposes same-sex marriage. In the days leading up to the election, some Democrats received "robo-calls" on their cellphones containing an excerpt from such a speech.

"Here is Barack Obama in his own words on the definition of marriage," the call began.

Then the voice of Obama speaking to a crowd comes on: "I believe marriage is a union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God is in the mix."

A narrator then urged a yes vote on Proposition 8.

California Democratic Party consultant Roger Salazar was among the recipients of the call.

"They saw the Obama tide coming and they were trying to capitalize on it," Salazar said, adding that the call was "manipulative and deceitful," given the candidate's stated opposition to the amendment.

Still, those efforts, combined with a push by dozens of African American ministers and commercials and mailers arguing that children would be subjected to a pro-gay curriculum should the measure pass, had an effect on voters like Pasadena resident Doris Tucker.

Tucker, who is African American, said she voted for "all the good things," especially Obama and Proposition 8. "I don't think it's right," Tucker said of gay marriage. "They shouldn't let it go on."

On Friday, four leaders of the No-on-8 campaign put out a statement urging cooperation among groups around the issue. "We achieve nothing if we isolate the people who did not stand with us in this fight," the statement said. "We only further divide our state if we attempt to blame people of faith, African American voters, rural communities and others for this loss."

In conversationsthis week, organizers of the campaign against Proposition 8 discussed the racial divide on the measure. Said Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights: "One cannot underestimate the effect that . . . the robo-calls had where people heard Barack Obama's voice and then they were told to vote yes on 8."

Still, she added, the campaign could have done a better job reaching out to black voters. "The way you really move votes in the African American community is with conversations, with [real-life] experience . . . making sure that people see there are African American lesbian and gay people who will be affected by this. That is something we intend to assist our community leaders in doing more of," she added. "That is a real lesson learned."

Ron Buckmire, who heads the Barbara Jordan/Bayard Rustin Coalition, a black gay-rights group in Los Angeles, said the vote shows that "there is a lot of work to be done in the black community."

Buckmire said the campaign should also have emphasized that, at its core, the proposition was about stripping a minority of a right that they had enjoyed. "The civil rights of people should not be put to a vote," he said. "Period. I would have thought that that message would have gotten through."

Shockley agreed. Civil rights, he said, has come to mean "one thing in the popular culture": the empowerment of black people.

But "what people don't realize is that King said over and over that the victories of civil rights were won for everyone," he added, referring to the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

Political strategist Darry Sragow said that the success of Proposition 8 shows that several assumptions about California voters, particularly black voters, proved to be false -- namely, that "because you are for civil rights and equality, you are liberal on everything."

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gayblack8-2008nov08,0,1601616.story

[Claydon]

I guess civil rightz is for duh blacks!

[Alcestis]

RESPONSE TO CLAYDONS CLAIM
CNN EXIT POLLS ON PROP 8 (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1)


7% of 10% of the vote = 7% points. No small part?

Also...read. San Francisco Chronicle (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/11/05/state/n111547S31.DTL) article on Prop 8.

[Da Raider]

this is craptastic. I post an article about the supposed death of the American Idea and we get three pages of Tater fighing with Claydon and others. Yippee!

[Pax Britannia]

this is craptastic. I post an article about the supposed death of the American Idea and we get three pages of Tater fighing with Claydon and others. Yippee!

It's gonna be like this in every political thread until 2012.

[Claydon]

this is craptastic. I post an article about the supposed death of the American Idea and we get three pages of Tater fighing with Claydon and others. Yippee!

It is the death of the american ideal!

[Limp]

this is craptastic. I post an article about the supposed death of the American Idea and we get three pages of Tater fighing with Claydon and others. Yippee!
Try here...

www.TheSeriousForumForSeriousPeopleAndSeriousIssue s.com (www.rickrolling.com)

[Da Raider]

Try here...

www.TheSeriousForumForSeriousPeopleAndSeriousIssue s.com (http://www.rickrolling.com)

You can't Rick Roll me, baby.

[Limp]

I'd Rick Roll your mom!

(I totally thought you would think that site was real...)

[fuldstændigamok]

A black man saying some do not deserve equal rights.....the irony here is just so thick it is choking me.

I'm sorry but, as much as I disagree with everything tater has said in this thread so far, I fail to see why a black man shouldn't have the right to be a racist ignorant biggot prick as much as the next white asshole?

[hatepoppy]

I'm sorry but, as much as I disagree with everything tater has said in this thread so far, I fail to see why a black man shouldn't have the right to be a racist ignorant biggot prick as much as the next white asshole?no doubt he's got the right. theres just nothing to say we cant antagonize him for our own entertainment.

[Feng]

I believe the most intolerant and racist people I have ever met are blacks, and mexicans. Furthermore, it is starting to become apparent that the passage of Prop 8 in california was in no small part due to large numbers of blacks and mexicans going to the polls in record numbers. So I guess they feel that passage of civil rights is great for them but not for teh gheys.

Actually it's because the Blacks are an awfully religious bunch of folks - they love them some Jesus! It's religion, that made the blacks vote the way they did (even your LA Times posting supports the religious basis on which the black community voted). But it's not all their fault... They're still a minority... Lots of dumbass rural whitey's voted YES too... Go and look at the county breakdown and you'll see it was mostly RURAL california that voted YES on Prop 8.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-2008election-california-results,0,1293859.htmlstory?view=8&tab=0&fnum=0

Rural areas were heavily biased towards Yes... Los Angeles was almost a tie. the rest of the coastal counties were pretty much leaned towards No. Why are the smarter people always along the coasts?

[Claydon]

Actually it's because the Blacks are an awfully religious bunch of folks - they love them some Jesus! It's religion, that made the blacks vote the way they did (even your LA Times posting supports the religious basis on which the black community voted). But it's not all their fault... They're still a minority... Lots of dumbass rural whitey's voted YES too... Go and look at the county breakdown and you'll see it was mostly RURAL california that voted YES on Prop 8.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics/cal/la-2008election-california-results,0,1293859.htmlstory?view=8&tab=0&fnum=0

Rural areas were heavily biased towards Yes... Los Angeles was almost a tie. the rest of the coastal counties were pretty much leaned towards No. Why are the smarter people always along the coasts?

So now you are suggesting that teh blaxors do not have free will? They are programmed to behave a certain way? Very Eugenics of you my friend. I suppose you are not familiar of the story of the Botany Bay lost in space in 1996 with Khan and his crew?

[taters]

See my sig, and the post on the other thread. Feng is half right, though.

[Nosebuckle]

It is. Its also the birth of new America, which, like old america thrives off the actual premise that ANYONE can achieve and live happily and freely. Not the formerly understood status quo of 'anyone can theoretically acheive, but only _____ (take your pick, white, rich, male, christian, straight, healthy etc) really can achieve and life free and happily'.

Welcome to new america, were the poor are not animals, where minorities are just as equal as everyone else, and where civil liberties and rights are acknowledged and respected, not ignored and trampled.

Seriously, Obama doesn't take office for another 2 months and you're already hootin' n' hollerin' about how he will end pretty much every social misery. There's still going to be downtrodden bums, minorities are still going to get picked on, and rights that some of us will believe are being encroached on. You act like the fucking sun hasn't risen since LBJ was in office.

[satandole666]

Good article.

I've been bitching about entitlement issues for quite a while now. We either have to raise taxes or ruin someone's life. Since it isn't my life being ruined, cut those fucking programs. I'm tired of paying for them and I'm about 99% sure I can raise my kids well enough to not be reliant on them.

[taters]

^ It would be a great skill indeed to raise your kids well enough not to need, oh, say 'roads, schools, water, bridges, a military, police'.

[Feng]

So now you are suggesting that teh blaxors do not have free will? They are programmed to behave a certain way? Very Eugenics of you my friend. I suppose you are not familiar of the story of the Botany Bay lost in space in 1996 with Khan and his crew?

No I am suggesting that deeply religious folks do not have free will, and are programmed to behave a certain way - to use your words...

[satandole666]

^ It would be a great skill indeed to raise your kids well enough not to need, oh, say 'roads, schools, water, bridges, a military, police'.

stfu dumbass. I'm not suggesting getting rid of all programs. No wonder no one takes you seriously.

[Mustard]

Figures this article would be written by a conservative after the election of Barack Obama.

Oh well. What'cha gonna do. Can't please all of the people, all of the time.

[vasili denisov]

Steyn argues that the american idea of a low government burden is in jeopardy from the ongoing growth of government, whatever the political party. He cites events that americans are outraged over, without suggesting any alternatives.

Government has grown from $600 billion to $3 trillion, Steyn complains, without accounting for how much is social security, defense, or inflation; he does not provide any ideas on how terrorism is to be fought on a lower budget (he is in favour of the current anti-terorrism policies), or the alternatives to a public social security, since the private program that was put forth would, if implemented, have come with a half-trillion start-up cost and major losses in the market rather than the anticipated growth.

He charges that Obama will cut taxes and provide relief for the indigent and non-working, though among his major policy proposals would be infrastructure projects for out-of-work labourers and a cut in the payroll tax. He pins the blame for the current crisis on over-regulation of F&F, though they held a fraction of the defaulted mortgages; how a small government conservative should deal with the collapse of unregulated default credit swap markets, he doesn't tell us. He opposes the bailout, though gives no other option. If he believes large institutions should simply be allowed to fail, he should explain why those experts who connect the fall of Lehman's with the jump in the TED spread and the ensuing credit crisis are wrong. He may well be correct in his criticisms, though these are not self-evident claims, and he has given no basis to justify them.

[Nature's Folly]

I wish we could just peer into the other reality of a mccain win and boot all these fuckers over there.

[Archangel]

Unlike those excitable countries where the peasants overrun the presidential palace, settled democratic societies rarely vote to “go left.”

So I'm guessing that Germany and England weren't "settled democratic societies" in 1998 an 1997, then. So... you're the only democratic country in the world, I guess?

It's funny because the author thinks that the people's right to choose a type of government on their own is a sign of LACK OF DEMOCRACY, not the very expression of it.

At that point, America might as well apply for honorary membership in the European Union.

It's funny that some Americans hate the outside world so much that becoming a bit more similar to even their closest allies is the end of the world to them.

It will be a nation at odds with the spirit of its founding,

Slavery?

and embarking on decline from which there are few escape routes. In 2012, the least we deserve is a choice between the collectivist assumptions of the Democrats, and a candidate who stands for individual liberty —

Like, a mercenary's liberty to kill innocent women and children and not get prosecuted for it? The liberty of having my phone tapped? The liberty of having to pay for a war that only a drooling imbecile and his greedy handlers wanted?

Yeah.

for economic dynamism not the sclerotic “managed capitalism” of Germany;

Yeah, because the economic dynamism of the past Republican administration really showed the world how it's done. Your banks are in rude health, and are a boon to world economy, while your industry sector is flourishing - unlike us, who are now eating grass.

for the First Amendment, not Canadian-style government regulation of approved opinion;

For the right to hold anybody who looks vaguely Middle Eastern without a trial and torture him to my heart's content, not those pussy-ass European "tribunals"!


for self-reliance and the Second Amendment, not the security state in which Britons are second only to North Koreans in the number of times they're photographed by government cameras in the course of going about their daily business.

Ah, guns. I was wondering when he was gonna bring this up. Because the right of an entire population to live in fear of being shot is the #1 sign of freedom. Also, it's pretty easy to get guns in the UK.

But that's the outside world, which only serves as a BAD example. Truth? Who cares.


In Forbes this week, Claudia Rosett issued a stirring defense of individual liberty. That it should require a stirring defense at all is a melancholy reflection on this election season. Live free — or die from a thousand beguiling caresses of nanny-state sirens.

Obviously. Let's forget that the last GOP administration is more or less directly responsible for the deaths of, oh, 100,000 people, has lied to its people and the entire world, has fucked over America's allies, and has encroached on more personal freedoms than one can count; but healthcare, yeah, THAT's the true evil.



America, I love you dearly. But let me tell you this: If you want to know what is still wrong with your country, ask yourself why the Republican base is no longer able to recognise the word "hypocrisy", and hope that those bitter, bigoted, hateful bastards clinging to the past will fade into the obsolescence in which they belong.

[Archangel]

Just wondering: Do American history books teach that Germany voted for Hitler in '33 because the other guys were for healthcare and raising the minimum wage?

[kid_vidrio]

Just wondering: Do American history books teach that Germany voted for Hitler in '33 because the other guys were for healthcare and raising the minimum wage?
They teach us that he was a charismatic speaker who promised hope in a time of devastation which came about because the jews wrecked teh banks.
So basically, Obama could be Hitler? Is that what you're getting at? Cuz I'll shout it from every mountain top and hope that Sarah Barracuda comes to the rescue!

As far as death to the American idea, I'd like to serve a steaming plate of FUCK YOU to the author. So long as I live and breathe and the people I know do, the American Idea lives on. I start businesses, I provide food and health care, I educate my kid, and I take vacations. I don't really give a flyinig fuck what happens in teh elections on a national level (so long as we don't get committed to another fucknig war) as real democracy happens on the state and local level - the stuff that really affects my life and well-being. Schools, liquor laws, speed limits, spending on libraries, street lights, zoning.....
So fuck the cock bags with their whining about America being done. My kid will win gold medals, even if they don't teach it in school. Becuase when you get down to it, it's about parenting, not schools and government, and everyone complaining is either a shitty parent or the result of one.

[Yelram]

Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty.
Plato

A dictatorship is a country where they have taken the politics out of the politics.
Samuel Himmel.

One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes a revolution in order to establish a dictatorship.
Orwell

[rc113943]

They teach us that he was a charismatic speaker who promised hope in a time of devastation which came about because the jews wrecked teh banks.
So basically, Obama could be Hitler? Is that what you're getting at? Cuz I'll shout it from every mountain top and hope that Sarah Barracuda comes to the rescue!

As far as death to the American idea, I'd like to serve a steaming plate of FUCK YOU to the author. So long as I live and breathe and the people I know do, the American Idea lives on. I start businesses, I provide food and health care, I educate my kid, and I take vacations. I don't really give a flyinig fuck what happens in teh elections on a national level (so long as we don't get committed to another fucknig war) as real democracy happens on the state and local level - the stuff that really affects my life and well-being. Schools, liquor laws, speed limits, spending on libraries, street lights, zoning.....
So fuck the cock bags with their whining about America being done. My kid will win gold medals, even if they don't teach it in school. Becuase when you get down to it, it's about parenting, not schools and government, and everyone complaining is either a shitty parent or the result of one.

that attitude is what is allowing this to happen. sure, your kid will win a gold medal, SO WILL EVERY OTHER KID because the schools won't allow anyone to stand out, everyone has to be equal, everyone has to win. nobody is allowed to lose - thats why kids cant play dodgeball, teachers cant use red pen, etc.

The election does matter, and especially this one, because in the next four years we stand the biggest challenge ever to the fabric of american society. big government will be controlling our lives and influencing our decisions more than ever before - look already at the mess the liberal congress created by forcing banks to give loans, and then the government covers up for it by using our money to bail them out. now, there is talk of bailing out the auto industries, too. don't you see? now, even big business isn't allowed to fail, and you know why nobody will be questioning it? because its how they were raised.

In 20 years, there are going to be an entire generation of voters who expect government to do everything for them and never allow them to fail.

[Yelram]

that attitude is what is allowing this to happen. sure, your kid will win a gold medal, SO WILL EVERY OTHER KID because the schools won't allow anyone to stand out, everyone has to be equal, everyone has to win. nobody is allowed to lose - thats why kids cant play dodgeball, teachers cant use red pen, etc.

The election does matter, and especially this one, because in the next four years we stand the biggest challenge ever to the fabric of american society. big government will be controlling our lives and influencing our decisions more than ever before - look already at the mess the liberal congress created by forcing banks to give loans, and then the government covers up for it by using our money to bail them out. now, there is talk of bailing out the auto industries, too. don't you see? now, even big business isn't allowed to fail, and you know why nobody will be questioning it? because its how they were raised.

In 20 years, there are going to be an entire generation of voters who expect government to do everything for them and never allow them to fail.

I'd agree with you more, if both sides werent in the bag for the NWO. We cant vote against it, thats the big joke here. Its either One world heavy, or One world lite. Either way, i'd trust that a 30 year senator, and POW would be more likely to preserve American Sovereignty than someone like Barack Obama. But either way we're screwed. Government is going to bankrupt business, and then be kind enough to "bail it out" so that the government has a whole new level of control over industry. Government wants to control insurance, and not just healthcare insurance. Do you know all of the requirements insurance companies make of businesses? And home owners? Expect the government to fill this role. Expect a government car company, SOON. A one world currency. A national ID. These are all coming down the pike under "New hope and change"..

[redsox39]

I am just sorry I missed 2.5 pages of laughing at Taters...

[kid_vidrio]

that attitude is what is allowing this to happen. sure, your kid will win a gold medal, SO WILL EVERY OTHER KID because the schools won't allow anyone to stand out, everyone has to be equal, everyone has to win. nobody is allowed to lose - thats why kids cant play dodgeball, teachers cant use red pen, etc.

The election does matter, and especially this one, because in the next four years we stand the biggest challenge ever to the fabric of american society. big government will be controlling our lives and influencing our decisions more than ever before - look already at the mess the liberal congress created by forcing banks to give loans, and then the government covers up for it by using our money to bail them out. now, there is talk of bailing out the auto industries, too. don't you see? now, even big business isn't allowed to fail, and you know why nobody will be questioning it? because its how they were raised.

In 20 years, there are going to be an entire generation of voters who expect government to do everything for them and never allow them to fail.
No, my kid will win a gold medal because she'll beat your kid because I have taught her how to win.
You are so blinded by ideology you can't even see when someone is probably more in agreement with you philosophically than not. As soon as you see a bump in the road, you get out your Rush megaphone and scream 'liberal.'
What evidence do you have to support you notion of what voters will be like in 20 years? And what evidence do you have to support how federal decisions actually affect you life at home - your day to day business? You in fact don't know shit and are just repeating things you've heard. Biggest challenge in American history. Bahhh. You think too highly of your self and the time in which you live. History is littered with such ignorant chumps.
Come back when you can shave.

[hatepoppy]

No, my kid will win a gold medal because she'll beat your kid because I have taught her how to win.
You are so blinded by ideology you can't even see when someone is probably more in agreement with you philosophically than not. As soon as you see a bump in the road, you get out your Rush megaphone and scream 'liberal.'
What evidence do you have to support you notion of what voters will be like in 20 years? And what evidence do you have to support how federal decisions actually affect you life at home - your day to day business? You in fact don't know shit and are just repeating things you've heard. Biggest challenge in American history. Bahhh. You think too highly of your self and the time in which you live. History is littered with such ignorant chumps.
Come back when you can shave.

aww sookie sookie now!

[Archangel]

It's amazing how defeatist Reps are. A guy who stands for things they don't like wins, and it's the onset of a stalinist dictatorship in America. It's funny how 8 years of Bush have left you so paranoid and have eroded any belief in the strength of democracy in your country.

A guy says that it doesn't hurt if some CEO makes 30 million instead of 50 million a year, and he's Kim Il Sung. Lulz.

[rc113943]

It's amazing how defeatist Reps are. A guy who stands for things they don't like wins, and it's the onset of a stalinist dictatorship in America. It's funny how 8 years of Bush have left you so paranoid and have eroded any belief in the strength of democracy in your country.

A guy says that it doesn't hurt if some CEO makes 30 million instead of 50 million a year, and he's Kim Il Sung. Lulz.

yeah but its probably fair to say that some European chap has no right to attempt to generalize the republicans of this country or tell us how paranoid we feel in this country that we live in while he doesnt live here and wouldnt understand anything except what he reads.

you're not living this dude, don't try to tell us we're paranoid, you don't know because you have nothing to do with this country. back the fuck up

[hatepoppy]

yeah but its probably fair to say that some European chap has no right to attempt to generalize the republicans of this country or tell us how paranoid we feel in this country that we live in while he doesnt live here and wouldnt understand anything except what he reads.

you're not living this dude, don't try to tell us we're paranoid, you don't know because you have nothing to do with this country. back the fuck up
that's the type of attitude that makes the world distrustful of teh gops.

WHO THE FUCK ARER YOU!?!? GO BACK TO EUROPE, FAGZ!

and btw, arch is far from ignorant. he's more savvy on american society than most anyone else one here. did you know he lived in chicago for quite some time?

sure, he's sortof an elitist. but fuck, who isnt in their own way? nooone arguing on here thinks theyre wrong.

broaden your perspective a touch, and you might not mind taking input from more than conservative radio and fox news to form your own opinions.

[hatepoppy]

/archcocksucking

[Nature's Folly]

yeah but its probably fair to say that some European chap has no right to attempt to generalize the republicans of this country or tell us how paranoid we feel in this country that we live in while he doesnt live here and wouldnt understand anything except what he reads.

you're not living this dude, don't try to tell us we're paranoid, you don't know because you have nothing to do with this country. back the fuck up

I agree with arch and i do live here. Stop being so fucking butt hurt your guy lost.

[Nature's Folly]

/archcocksucking

2nded.

[kid_vidrio]

yeah but its probably fair to say that some European chap has no right to attempt to generalize the republicans of this country or tell us how paranoid we feel in this country that we live in while he doesnt live here and wouldnt understand anything except what he reads.

you're not living this dude, don't try to tell us we're paranoid, you don't know because you have nothing to do with this country. back the fuck up
You probably agree with the 'Oh lord, we may as well join the EU' sentiment. So you have an opinion on what different European countries do, and right or wrong, you express it. Fair enough.
Why then would you think someone who has already forgotten more than you'll ever learn and has lived here in the US should 'back the fuck up?'

Because you are a hopeless knee-jerk dipshit who needs to read and see a lot more before trying to swing his e-peen around.

[mongo]

i find it funny that people are pointing out what sore losers the reps are. wasn't it some dems on this board that started the "if mccain wins, what country will you move to?" thread? just curious.

[freegood]

Steyn argues that the american idea of a low government burden is in jeopardy from the ongoing growth of government, whatever the political party. He cites events that americans are outraged over, without suggesting any alternatives.

Government has grown from $600 billion to $3 trillion, Steyn complains, without accounting for how much is social security, defense, or inflation; he does not provide any ideas on how terrorism is to be fought on a lower budget (he is in favour of the current anti-terorrism policies), or the alternatives to a public social security, since the private program that was put forth would, if implemented, have come with a half-trillion start-up cost and major losses in the market rather than the anticipated growth.

He charges that Obama will cut taxes and provide relief for the indigent and non-working, though among his major policy proposals would be infrastructure projects for out-of-work labourers and a cut in the payroll tax. He pins the blame for the current crisis on over-regulation of F&F, though they held a fraction of the defaulted mortgages; how a small government conservative should deal with the collapse of unregulated default credit swap markets, he doesn't tell us. He opposes the bailout, though gives no other option. If he believes large institutions should simply be allowed to fail, he should explain why those experts who connect the fall of Lehman's with the jump in the TED spread and the ensuing credit crisis are wrong. He may well be correct in his criticisms, though these are not self-evident claims, and he has given no basis to justify them.

I gotta say though. If the Republicans become a party of know nothing mediocre halfwits, they'll be a lot easier to run against the next 4 years.

[Nature's Folly]

Honestly i expected mccain to win, either way nothing really ever changes.

[Morfin]

Wow, look at all the love for Arch. Group hug, everyone. Group hug. No, not you rc. Everyone else.

[hatepoppy]

i find it funny that people are pointing out what sore losers the reps are. wasn't it some dems on this board that started the "if mccain wins, what country will you move to?" thread? just curious.as usual, both democrats and republicans are sensationalist idiots. by their very diametric nature they are WOE IS ME or FUCK YOU I WIN!

its all bullshit, take it w a grain of salt.

in your ass.

and by grain i mean an entire morton salt container.

sideways.

with the lil metal spout dealy pulled UP.

anyone else hungry?

[Archangel]

Wow, look at all the love for Arch. Group hug, everyone. Group hug. No, not you rc. Everyone else.

I'm not used to this. I feel so... so... you really like me!


*breaks out in tears*

And to rc, I suggest you click the link in my sig. Hell, my mates here call me the "Yank" because of how Americanised I am.

[Pax Britannia]

Hell, my mates here call me the "Yank" because of how Americanised I am.

Sort of like how Spock is really Vulcan around humans but appears very human in the company of Vulacans.

TRAPPED BETWEEN TWO WORLDS!!

[taters]

I'm not used to this. I feel so... so... you really like me!


*breaks out in tears*

And to rc, I suggest you click the link in my sig. Hell, my mates here call me the "Yank" because of how Americanised I am.

You sure thats what they were saying? I mean, calling you 'yank'?

[Nosebuckle]

"I don't need Barack Obama's help to “spread the wealth around.” I spread my wealth around every time I hire somebody, expand my business, or just go to the general store and buy a quart of milk and loaf of bread."

I generally agree with this statement.

[Insomniac]

I spread the wealth around every time I visit the strip club.

[Whiffleball]

The election does matter, and especially this one, because in the next four years we stand the biggest challenge ever to the fabric of american society. big government will be controlling our lives and influencing our decisions more than ever before - look already at the mess the liberal congress created by forcing banks to give loans, and then the government covers up for it by using our money to bail them out. now, there is talk of bailing out the auto industries, too. don't you see? now, even big business isn't allowed to fail, and you know why nobody will be questioning it? because its how they were raised.

In 20 years, there are going to be an entire generation of voters who expect government to do everything for them and never allow them to fail.

As a general note... If the only person agreeing with you is the conspiracy nut, you MAY be a radical.

So we should just let the free market take its course and allow all these major banks to fail? Do you have any grasp on the what the impact of that would be? It would be hugely devastating. Don't believe me? Read up on a little thing called the Second Depression... A tiny event that demonstrated to the world that a sole reliance on private enterprise was doomed to the start and that the state had a large role to play in a mixed economy.

The spirit of America is one of freedom and democracy. It is power in the hands of people as opposed to a single dictator, to the maintenance of a civic virtue so that everyone benefits. If there is an American tradition of collectivism, it is because our founders believed that government by the people is more prudent, more stable and has better judgment than a solitary ruler or a powerful faction of oligarchs.

Our recent economic troubles as well as past corruption scandals show the inherent danger of too much individual and factional self-interest. We find not just greed and mismanagement, but uncontrolled risks without any regard for civic responsibilities. Self-interest always tries to pass itself off as a technically rational activity. In fact, it is irrational, primarily because it is not subject to any rules or ethics.

Prior to the late 20th century, the economic and cultural elites of Western countries were willing to shoulder civic responsibilities. Post-modern capitalism is characterized by a professional elite which defines itself as entirely separate from civic and national concerns. The markets on which the fortunes of the new elites rely are tied to enterprises that operate across international boundaries. They have more in common with their counterparts in Brussels or Hong Kong than with their fellow Americans. They put their money into private self-enclosed enclaves and their kids go to private schools. They have their own private systems of health, police and even garbage collection. This privileged class, our top 20%, has made itself independent of the crumbling industrial cities and the public services in general. After all, why should they pay for public services they don't even use? They have removed themselves from the common life and their civic obligations. Post-modern capitalism has produced a cosmopolitan elite of non-citizens who share neither history, culture nor fate in common with the majority.

The belief that the free market can turn incorrigible human selfishness into "enlightened" self-interest only leads to the factional neglect of civic responsibilities. It is a return to the corruption that the early Americans rebelled against -- unaccountable elites exercising enormous power at the expense of the common good and civic virtue.

The results of the free market are not only not particularly civil, but as Margaret Thatcher famously said, not even a society. "There is no such thing as society," she said. "There are individual men and women and there are families." Our early leaders would have been horrified at this now popular line of thinking -- a clear repudiation of republicanism and a recipe for political and social disaster.

Under this tradition, we have seen individuals elevated far above communities. Individuals enjoy their rights but are seen as taking from society rather than entering back into it. I believe our founders would have argued that if society and even democracy is to work in America, there must be strong community ties and plenty of civic virtue.

Rights should be accompanied by social responsibilities and a belief in the common good. We must take notice of our interdependence, our embeddedness in various communities and the duties we owe each other as well as the advantages of mutual solidarity.

We have to believe an American Dream beyond self-advancement and personal profit. We have to believe in a better society where everyone contributes for the betterment of all. We mustn't embrace hand-outs, but help; not isolation, but cooperation. We must put aside the laws of the jungle and embrace the spirit of building a better world not just for ourselves, but for future generations of Americans as well.

[hatepoppy]

am i the conspiracy nut?

and btw, hahahahahhhahahahah *deep breath* hahahahahahahahahahahah

@

It is power in the hands of people as opposed to a single dictator, to the maintenance of a civic virtue so that everyone benefits. If there is an American tradition of collectivism, it is because our founders believed that people is more prudent, more stable and has better judgement than a solitary ruler or a powerful faction of oligarchs.

why did they make an electoral college, then?

[Whiffleball]

am i the conspiracy nut?

and btw, hahahahahhhahahahah *deep breath* hahahahahahahahahahahah

@



why did they make an electoral college, then?

So candidates would concentrate on winning the popular vote in a combination of states that choose a majority of the electors, rather than campaigning to win the most votes nationally. The collective opinion of even a small state merits attention at the federal level greater than that given to a small, though numerically-equivalent, portion of a very populous state.

I'm not saying it's the best system (they were wrong on womens' rights and slavery too, amongst other things), but given the context of when they were establishing a new state, it at the very least makes sense.

[hatepoppy]

So candidates would concentrate on winning the popular vote in a combination of states that choose a majority of the electors, rather than campaigning to win the most votes nationally. The collective opinion of even a small state merits attention at the federal level greater than that given to a small, though numerically-equivalent, portion of a very populous state.

I'm not saying it's the best system (they were wrong on womens' rights and slavery too, amongst other things), but given the context of when they were establishing a new statement, it at the very least makes sense.good story. youve got a promising career as a history textbook writer.

[Archangel]

I'm pretty sure that 90% of the people complain about "socialism", "nanny state" and such are basically just a bunch of greedy mother fuckers who just won't admit that they're petty enough to care more about a few hundred bucks than the lot of their less fortunate countrymen.

Guys, it's not the frontier anymore. Wake up.

[Yelram]

I'm pretty sure that 90% of the people complain about "socialism", "nanny state" and such are basically just a bunch of greedy mother fuckers who just won't admit that they're petty enough to care more about a few hundred bucks than the lot of their less fortunate countrymen.

Guys, it's not the frontier anymore. Wake up.


HAHAHAHA, or maybe they are business owners who employ hundreds of people, and realize that a higher rate of taxation translates into layoffs, and cutbacks.

[rc113943]

survival of the fittest, man. those "less fortunate" are that way for a reason

[Archangel]

Keep believing that.


While you're at it, keep believing that this is 1858.

[Pax Britannia]

survival of the fittest, man. those "less fortunate" are that way for a reason

Even if thats what you believe never say it outloud.

Conservative rule No1.

[Morfin]

survival of the fittest, man. those "less fortunate" are that way for a reason

That's right: God's plan.

[rc113943]

Even if thats what you believe never say it outloud.

Conservative rule No1.

when im running for office, i'll remember that ;) for here and now, i'm going to openly express my opinion

[kid_vidrio]

when im running for office, i'll remember that ;) for here and now, i'm going to openly express my opinion
Yeah, cuz nothing said or done here ever affected a campaign.

[Archangel]

So if somebody falls gravely ill, gets run over by a bus, or gets laid off because his greedy company outsources all the jobs to Malaysia, that's their fault, obviously.


How's the weather on Planet Retard?

Jesus Christ, and they call me a generalising élitist bastard when I make fun of current Republican supporters as the most low brow political group in the Western hemisphere...

[Pax Britannia]

Jesus Christ, and they call me a generalising élitist bastard when I make fun of current Republican supporters as the most low brow political group in the Western hemisphere...

Lucas is a supporter of the Liberal Democrats over here in Britain. Enough said.

[redsox39]

survival of the fittest, man. those "less fortunate" are that way for a reason


I hate the Term "Less Forunate". Like it means they were just unlucky. Like they work just as hard as everyone else but are just not dealt good cards. It is a bullshit statement.

Or, it is implies that everyone that did make it to "Fortunate" level, just got lucky, and it had nothing to do with overtime, extra classes, masters degrees, or hardwork.


Just say poor. The mutha fucking poor.

This "less fortunate" bullshit PC Crap has to stop.

[Morfin]

How's the weather on Planet Retard?


It's funny what Google will pull up:

http://www.mrdrinkwater.com/cartoons/2007/70707.jpg

[Archangel]

You people fucking disgust me.

No, not you, Morfin.

[redsox39]

Even if thats what you believe never say it outloud.

Conservative rule No1.

I disagree. I won't feel bad about not believeing I got "lucky" to be where I am at today.

[Archangel]

Seriously, I'd rather be starving to death than as fucking dumb as rc.

[Pax Britannia]

You people fucking disgust me.

No, not you, Morfin.

Looks like the Republican party has done a pretty good job of alienating college educated people on the continent, just like at home.

Combo?

[fuldstændigamok]

I disagree. I won't feel bad about not believeing I got "lucky" to be where I am at today.

A fat fugly idiot redneck?
And you call that luck?

[fuldstændigamok]

Plus you have red hairs. That definetly disqualifies you as lucky by rules.

[rc113943]

see the problem is, the "less forunate" situation you described is the exception not the rule. the majority of government-babied americans are just plain lazy, bred through generations of getting something for nothing. i worked in the ghettos for two years and saw what never having to do anything with your life can do to people. those kids have no chance whatsoever, and never will, because they'll never have to. the problem is the majority of the rule have taken advantage of the original intentions, which was to take care of the exceptions

[Archangel]

If you think your welfare people are lazy, you should come visit Europe, where immigrants get $400 a month for every future unemployable criminal their wives pop out.

[Archangel]

Plus $1000 a month, just because.

Plus free rent.

Plus healthcare.

[redsox39]

Plus you have red hairs. That definetly disqualifies you as lucky by rules.


Red Hairs?

I think you have me confused with someone else.

Plus, not a Redneck. Nice suburban home, Wife, 2 Kids, Just under Obama's 'tax me to death' number, only own 2 guns.

Our District voted Obama- Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking abotu sometimes...

Scratch that, all the time.

Go back to jacking off to comic books and cleaning your room in the basement.

[Archangel]

I'm pretty sure that old Frenchie here is among the top 5 richest people on these boards...

[fuldstændigamok]

cleaning your room in the basement.

I have people for that kind of chores. But you are right on one point though, the basement is one of my favorite room of the house, drinking a nice pure malt while playing a game of snooker with friends away from the wife is one of me little pleasures.

[heelsguy]

Plus $1000 a month, just because.

Plus free rent.

Plus healthcare.


so, arch, do you ever get on their message boards and spout your displeasure at their policies? or is it just more fun sterotyping americans?

[Archangel]

Whose message boards?

[Morfin]

Euro-fag.de
Elitistsnob.com
SocialistMonkeyForum.net

Just to name a few.

[Claydon]

Keep believing that.


While you're at it, keep believing that this is 1858.

failure my good man

the gilded age was in the later part of the 19th century when the progressive movements began.

[heelsguy]

Whose message boards?

i mean, you spend a good part of your day posting on an american message board. i figured you might possibly post on a message board based on a country within the continent you actual live.... :)

[Archangel]

Why?

[fuldstændigamok]

so, arch, do you ever get on their message boards and spout your displeasure at their policies? or is it just more fun sterotyping americans?

Why should he waste his time writing 500+ words posts towards people who can barely read?

[Pax Britannia]

GO BACK TO GERMANY COMMIE

Translated.

[Claydon]

Why should he waste his time writing 500+ words posts towards people who can barely read?

oh the irony

[fuldstændigamok]

oh the irony

I can read. It's the writing that I have a slight problem with. AND I can do it (good enough to understand and be understood) in at least 7 languages, moran, while you can barely do it in a single one.

[Claydon]

I can read. It's the writing that I have a slight problem with. AND I can do it (good enough to understand and be understood) in at least 7 languages, moran, while you can barely do it in a single one.

a single one? is that a fact?

[fuldstændigamok]

a single one? is that a fact?

Well, being from cali, I'm guessing that you might be fluent in spanish as well. All I'm saying is that making fun of a stranger speaking to you in your language is an easy thing.

[redsox39]

I can read. It's the writing that I have a slight problem with.

doubtful, which is why you read comic books and masturbate to Rainbow Bright.

[Claydon]

doubtful, which is why you read comic books and masturbate to Rainbow Bright.

Fact: When i use to go to raves asian girls would always dress up as rainbow bright....


FACT!: I made out with one of those asian girls dressed up as rainbow bright.

[fuldstændigamok]

doubtful, which is why you read comic books and masturbate to Rainbow Bright.

Again, ta gueule.

[Pax Britannia]

FACT!: I made out with one of those asian girls dressed up as rainbow bright.

Wow. She must have been on something.

[Claydon]

Wow. She must have been on something.

of this i have no doubt, but then again so was i

[redsox39]

Again, ta gueule.

or you can STFU, either way...

[freegood]

Wow. She must have been on something.

You gotta realize that Asian girl is a VERY loose category.

http://i34.tinypic.com/20av408.jpg

[Archangel]

I can read. It's the writing that I have a slight problem with. AND I can do it (good enough to understand and be understood) in at least 7 languages, moran, while you can barely do it in a single one.

And pass for a native in zero.


Well done, monsieur.

[fuldstændigamok]

or you can STFU, either way...

Wow, a true polyglot.

Hold din kæft, røvhule.

[kid_vidrio]

see the problem is, the "less forunate" situation you described is the exception not the rule. the majority of government-babied americans are just plain lazy, bred through generations of getting something for nothing.
What, exactly, did they get, for 'nothing.'

[Archangel]

Well, being from cali, I'm guessing that you might be fluent in spanish as well.

Well, Cali is like the second largest city in Colombia, so it figures that people would speak some Castellano there...

All I'm saying is that making fun of a stranger speaking to you in your language is an easy thing.

Which, incidentally, is only ever done by people who speak no foreign language themselves.

But my English is rather superior to that of, oh, 90% of native English speakers, so I make fun of their linguistical shortcomings in their own language. Win.

[hatepoppy]

see the problem is, the "less forunate" situation you described is the exception not the rule. the majority of government-babied americans are just plain lazy, bred through generations of getting something for nothing. i worked in the ghettos for two years and saw what never having to do anything with your life can do to people. those kids have no chance whatsoever, and never will, because they'll never have to. the problem is the majority of the rule have taken advantage of the original intentions, which was to take care of the exceptions
how old are you?

[TheImpossibleMan]

rc, you are an ignorant motherfucker. If you think people who are on welfare enjoy it, and that it is only through sheer laziness that they remain there, then you are so pampered and closed off from the real world that it's almost mind-blowing.

[Yelram]

rc, you are an ignorant motherfucker. If you think people who are on welfare enjoy it, and that it is only through sheer laziness that they remain there, then you are so pampered and closed off from the real world that it's almost mind-blowing.

You apparently dont know too many people on welfare.

[hatepoppy]

You apparently dont know too many people on welfare.
shut the fuck up. neither do you.

i grew up there. on welfare. food stamps. state-funded medical care.

now im an engineer. why? bc it sucks fucking balls to be on welfare.

fuck you and teh dick you rode in on, you ignorant fuck.

[Archangel]

Pwnt.

[Da Raider]

I swear, this has been the most worthless fucking thread evar. I thought I started something good, but fuck, it's been hijacked countless times. Oh well. Fuck everyone and everything!

[hatepoppy]

I swear, this has been the most worthless fucking thread evar. I thought I started something good, but fuck, it's been hijacked countless times. Oh well. Fuck everyone and everything!
stat overz?

what did you want?

[Da Raider]

stat overz?

what did you want?

POOP

[hatepoppy]

POOP
POOP I GOTZ!

therez more than corn in indiana!

[Mustard]

I swear, this has been the most worthless fucking thread evar. I thought I started something good, but fuck, it's been hijacked countless times. Oh well. Fuck everyone and everything!
What did you seriously expect Raider? With certifiable nutcases abound, you had to know that this thread was going to be turned into the steaming pile of shit that it is.

Just remember though. It isn't your fault.

[hatepoppy]

i had to hustle
my back to the wall, ashy knuckles
pockets filled wit alota lint
not a cent
gotta vent
lotta innocent lives lost on a project bench
what you hollerin
gotta pay rent
bring dollars in
by tha bodega
iron under my coat
feelin braver
do-rag wrappin my waves up
pockets full of hope

do not step to me im awkward
i box leftier often
my pops left me an orphan
my mama wasnt home
cannot stress to you i wasnt grown
'specially on nights i brought somethin home to quiet the stomach rumblins

my demeanor
thirty years my senior
my childhood ditnt mean much
only raisin green up
raisin my fingas to critics
raisin my head to the sky
BIG i did it multi befo i die, no lie
just know i chose my own fate
i drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

[Mustard]

They see me rollin'. They hatin'.

[hatepoppy]

possessed by tha streets
you cant tell me that this aint home
i can't eat if tha resta this shit aint gone
im gettin used to the tha needles on tha bathroom sink
gotta close my door because tha back room stinks
see
daddy dont work
and momma dont drink
but
daddy do coke
and momma cant think
so
look like im'a be tha man of tha house
gotta have sometin to put in a hand when its out

up early in tha mornin, tha first ta get it
they say 'if you really want it then come on wit it'