What's elitism, and is it good or bad?

[Insomniac]

Sam Harris wrote a short essay (http://forum.gorillamask.net/www.newsweek.com/id/160080) reflecting on the American distrust of elites as it relates to politicians. Only when we're electing someone does, "She's a working mom like me," really mean anything, whereas if you needed brain surgery performed on you, you'd want the most qualified person for the job. Everyone is elitist when it comes to who's caring for their health, so how can elitism be a bad thing when it comes to running a government?

The prospects of a Palin administration are far more frightening, in fact, than those of a Palin Institute for Pediatric Neurosurgery. Ask yourself: how has "elitism" become a bad word in American politics? There is simply no other walk of life in which extraordinary talent and rigorous training are denigrated. We want elite pilots to fly our planes, elite troops to undertake our most critical missions, elite athletes to represent us in competition and elite scientists to devote the most productive years of their lives to curing our diseases. And yet, when it comes time to vest people with even greater responsibilities, we consider it a virtue to shun any and all standards of excellence. When it comes to choosing the people whose thoughts and actions will decide the fates of millions, then we suddenly want someone just like us, someone fit to have a beer with, someone down-to-earth—in fact, almost anyone, provided that he or she doesn't seem too intelligent or well educated.Meanwhile Thomas Sowell had a recent column (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell111108.php3) which was the exact opposite of Harris's. He uses the word "intellectual," but both he and Harris are talking about the same thing.

How have intellectuals managed to be so wrong, so often? By thinking that because they are knowledgeable— or even expert— within some narrow band out of the vast spectrum of human concerns, that makes them wise guides to the masses and to the rulers of the nation.

And frankly, Harris is ignoring that important point that there are no real measurable predictive qualities when it comes to the presidency, or really, most elected offices. There's no combine for decision-making, there's little to no technical expertise involved, and ultimately, what we want from our politicians is people who will represent us and our interests once they're elected. Therefore we want them to understand us and our needs, while simultaneously being extraordinary examples of the human race. We want every president to be Andrew Jackson or Abraham Lincoln.

But Sowell is being disingenuous if he sweeps away the early Republic's history where elitism was the ideal of pretty much everyone who mattered. We want stupid people to stay away from governing. We don't want the masses running the government, we don't even want them voting.

So to some extent we're all elitists. We don't want someone who thinks basketball is played with a wooden block coaching in -- or in a conversation about -- the NBA. And that we call common sense. But we also don't want to be told that our inability to remember who defeated the Lakers in the 1964 playoffs renders all of our basketball opinions invalid because that's douchebaggery. Moreover, whether or not a person knows this things isn't predictive of their ability to coach.

You could do the same thing with literature, with business, with government. There's too much to know. At some point, what you know ceases to matter. Scalia is an intellect far greater than any of ours, but throw a redneck from the Ozarks onto the Supreme Court and you wouldn't notice a difference in how they voted, just how they justified their decisions.

Anyway, I've rambled, but ultimately I'm just trying to get to the topic title.

[Morfin]

I think part of the problem is that people are using "elitism" and "intellectualism" as synonymous -- they are not. One is a defect of personality, one is an issue of qualification.

I do not like elitists as they think they are better than other people -- whether because they have more money, better athletic skills, or think they have greater intellect. I don't like people like that.

I do like intellectuals, or people who are educated and have experience in complex issues such as state diplomacy or, call me crazy, when being the U.S. president.

[Archangel]

Maybe if your schools started caring more about education than about football, people would start having more respect towards intellectuals.

Nobody knows the names of, say, Duke University's Nobel laureates, but everybody knows who, in that same institution of higher learning, tells barely literate jackasses when and how to throw a ball into a hoop.

[Morfin]

And the average German could name its Nobel laureates with greater accuracy than, say, its football stars, Herr Archangel?

[Genius]

Maybe if your schools started caring more about education than about football, people would start having more respect towards intellectuals.

Nobody knows the names of, say, Duke University's Nobel laureates, but everybody knows who, in that same institution of higher learning, tells barely literate jackasses when and how to throw a ball into a hoop.
So you see this as an issue exclusive to the United States? There isn't a hint of mistrust and disrespect toward in elites in say, Dublin? Or Manchester? Or the entire former Soviet Bloc?

[Archangel]

And the average German could name its Nobel laureates with greater accuracy than, say, its football stars, Herr Archangel?

Regarding universities, yes. I wasn't talking about the public at large; they are idiots everywhere. But the impression here is that your schools are places where illiterates who happen to be able to throw a ball go to get pussy and look down on people who read books.

Yes, I know it's generalising, and yes, I know that your top universities are the best in the world. But you know what I mean...

So you see this as an issue exclusive to the United States? There isn't a hint of mistrust and disrespect toward in elites in say, Dublin? Or Manchester? Or the entire former Soviet Bloc?

Let me put it like this. The US is the only country in the civilised world in which a candidate would tell the voters not to vote for the other guy because he uses "fancy words" like "nuance". Here, somebody like Sarah Palin would get laughed out of parliament. Dunno, I don't see a country in Western/Central Europe where a candidate's PhD would be a liabilty.

[Yelram]

I love how Archs version of colllege in America comes right out of National Lampoons version of reality. "Elites" have been at the forefront of every tyrannical oppressive regime in the history of the world. And somehow now we are supposed to put our total trust in them? I suppose we are all supposed to eat cake right? Its the same way a Rockefeller can run on the democratic ticket, and promise everyone that he's for the little guy, and demonize the rich, and the stupid little puppet peoples jump for joy. You see, alot of people dont trust Obama, because alot of them dont even know what he's saying, alot of people trust him for the same reason.

[Archangel]

I love how Archs version of colllege in America comes right out of National Lampoons version of reality.
Tom Wolfe, actually. Oh, and I've never been to an American college campus, or anything. It's not like my father's best friend is a professor emerita at Stanford, and mostly agrees with my views.
"Elites" have been at the forefront of every tyrannical oppressive regime in the history of the world.
Bullshit. The dumb masses are to blame. Who elected Hitler? Who cheered on Robespierre? Who supported Mao? The élites? Rubbish.
And somehow now we are supposed to put our total trust in them?
Yeah, let's trust Sarah Palin instead. Fuck smart people.

[Archetype]

Let me put it like this. The US is the only country in the civilised world in which a candidate would tell the voters not to vote for the other guy because he uses "fancy words" like "nuance". Here, somebody like Sarah Palin would get laughed out of parliament.

In all fairness, she kind did get laughed out of that election.

[Phil Theehor]

I can see why such a concept would be baffling to our European friends. Let me try to provide a little context.

I don’t think the average American doesn’t want our best and brightest running the country. Frankly, that would be idiotic. When you see ‘elitist’ thrown around as an epithet, that stems from a general distrust of people who were born on third base. Americans admire those who earn their own way to the top.

And you know what? I can understand that. I don’t want somebody who has never needed to bust his ass to pay his rent or mortgage making decisions on how to spend my money. I fear that such an individual won’t know what my earnings mean to me and, as a result, will feel quite entitled to my wallet.

Obama passes that test for me. I didn’t vote for him and I’m still afraid of his economic policies, but he really does embody the American Dream. He is where he is solely because of his own abilities and efforts. Dutch passed that test, too. W. Bush? He’s a guy who was born on third base and scored on a balk.

Back to Obama, he is a talented, talented man. I sincerely hope that I am wrong and that his policies are a smashing success. I hope he serves two terms. And if “elite” means someone like him (or Dutch) who is where he is today on his own merits, then yes, please allow the elite to lead us.

Bush somehow utilized a poor command of the English language to avoid the (negative) elite label. And from his standpoint, it was a good tactical decision. He won two elections because the Dems ran two asshats against him who couldn’t say three words without talking down to the American people. The average person looked at the opponents and feared that the condescending lefty shared no experience with him and would not understand his struggles. On the contrary, Clinton was a self-made man who could speak intelligently without giving you the impression that he thought he was merely the mouthpiece for the burning bush.

I guess what it comes down to is that we don’t have the long traditions of Europe. We value (most of us, at least) self-determination above all else. We inherently distrust anyone born into a ruling class. We want people who find their own way to the top.

Another area in which we differ from Europe is in the generally held view of career civil servants. In Europe, you have a long tradition of a very professional bureaucracy (France especially) that is run by many of your best and brightest.

In the US, the perception is that (below the highest levels), people who work for the government (save cops, fire, military etc.) do so because they either couldn’t hang in the private sector or they didn’t want to work very hard.

That’s why candidates try to brand themselves as “outsiders”. They don’t want to be painted with the ‘elite’ label one gets by spending his career in civil service.

[freegood]

American perceptions of elitism is dysfunctional and easily distorted with targeted marketing.

If Obama was 20 years older, spoke the same way and did the same thing, you'd be damn sure that elitist title would stick. No Obama Golden Girl would not save his skinny butt.

President Bubba, a Rhodes fucking scholar, had to be Bubba who loved fast food, preferably thick thighs and juicy breasts, in order to get elected.

President Dubya, who was born in Connecticut, used his Tex-isms to strategerize his way into the hearts and minds with makeshift phrases like Compassionate Conservatism and Uniting and Dividing. Phrases that sounded like promises but were far easier to break and forget. It doesn't matter if his father is fucking filthy rich or the Bush family is as elite as you can get by hobnobbing with Saudi royalty.


So me talk like moron cuz me wanna be prez. But no talk like gangsta wanna be, cuz that's below voters me want to reach. Gotta speak 'merican-like but not too American see. So that me can be chum to drink with hard worker white red and blue. Someone your granny would like but not be afraid of.

Call me Mav Rick.

[Hobnail_Boot]

American perceptions of elitism is dysfunctional and easily distorted with targeted marketing.

If Obama was 20 years older, spoke the same way and did the same thing, you'd be damn sure that elitist title would stick. No Obama Golden Girl would not save his skinny butt.

President Bubba, a Rhodes fucking scholar, had to be Bubba who loved fast food, preferably thick thighs and juicy breasts, in order to get elected.

President Dubya, who was born in Connecticut, used his Tex-isms to strategerize his way into the hearts and minds with makeshift phrases like Compassionate Conservatism and Uniting and Dividing. Phrases that sounded like promises but were far easier to break and forget. It doesn't matter if his father is fucking filthy rich or the Bush family is as elite as you can get by hobnobbing with Saudi royalty.


So me talk like moron cuz me wanna be prez. But no talk like gangsta wanna be, cuz that's below voters me want to reach. Gotta speak 'merican-like but not too American see. So that me can be chum to drink with hard worker white red and blue. Someone your granny would like but not be afraid of.

Call me Mav Rick.
That's the long-winded version of "Americans are stupid."

[freegood]

More gullible and apathetic than stupid.

Americans can spot a liar, but when it comes to politics, there's an emotional quality that trumps logic. So it becomes more like a Jazz fan cheering one of Karl Malone's uncalled flagrant fouls...

[Hobnail_Boot]

More gullible and apathetic than stupid.

Americans can spot a liar, but when it comes to politics, there's an emotional quality that trumps logic. So it becomes more like a Jazz fan cheering one of Karl Malone's uncalled flagrant fouls...
Uh, but Jazz fans are stupid.

[Archangel]

I guess what it comes down to is that we don’t have the long traditions of Europe. We value (most of us, at least) self-determination above all else. We inherently distrust anyone born into a ruling class. We want people who find their own way to the top.


Hugely respectable, and a large part of what makes your country great. Here (less so in Germany, which had to totally re-invent itself after '45, very much so in France or Britain), we just call them "nouveaux riches" or "parvenus", and tell them to sit down for a generation or two.


Another area in which we differ from Europe is in the generally held view of career civil servants. In Europe, you have a long tradition of a very professional bureaucracy (France especially) that is run by many of your best and brightest.

General distrust in government is obviously a factor, as well: You expect them to suck, so you don't mind the morons who run, and by voting for those who suck, you ensure that government keeps sucking.


In the US, the perception is that (below the highest levels), people who work for the government (save cops, fire, military etc.) do so because they either couldn’t hang in the private sector or they didn’t want to work very hard.


Smaller discrepancies in pay help. With all the benefits (free rent for a 2400 sq ft apartment on North Lake Shore Drive ftw), my father made almost the same money as a mid-level FSO as his peers in the private sector did, but with 10x the job security and a secure pension.


That’s why candidates try to brand themselves as “outsiders”. They don’t want to be painted with the ‘elite’ label one gets by spending his career in civil service.

And yet, people re-elect the same crowd every election...

[Stax]

And yet, people re-elect the same crowd every election...

There are plenty of legitimate reasons for high incumbent retention, namely that it's pretty darn likely that the pool of people who have recently managed to win the race for Seat X are more closely tuned to what the people want than a generic challenger.

[freegood]

Another is that both parties have gerrymandering down to computerized science.

[Rover]

Bush somehow utilized a poor command of the English language to avoid the (negative) elite label. And from his standpoint, it was a good tactical decision. He won two elections because the Dems ran two asshats against him who couldn’t say three words without talking down to the American people. The average person looked at the opponents and feared that the condescending lefty shared no experience with him and would not understand his struggles. On the contrary, Clinton was a self-made man who could speak intelligently without giving you the impression that he thought he was merely the mouthpiece for the burning bush.Another thing with Bush is that his personal story is compelling. Sure he was born with a silver spoon and all that, but he had to overcome his own personal demons. In that way, his story is part of the American story. A total failure, who is able to turn his life around and become successful. Combine that with his born-again faith and his story is as admirable as any.

And Bush was labelled an "elite" during his Congressional race in the 70's. After he lost, he is supposed to have said something to effect of he'd never be "out Texaned" again. Mission Accomplished.

General distrust in government is obviously a factor, as well: You expect them to suck, so you don't mind the morons who run, and by voting for those who suck, you ensure that government keeps sucking.Maybe the intention is to keep government sucking. Are you really surprised that a country founded because of distrust of government is still distrustful of government? And our tired, poor, huddled masses weren't exactly fleeing awesomely benevolent governments. As far as we're concerned, the people who love government stayed behind.

Efficient governments are able to do horrible, horrible things very efficiently.

[redsox39]

Let me put it like this. The US is the only country in the civilised world in which a candidate would tell the voters not to vote for the other guy because he uses "fancy words" like "nuance". Here, somebody like Sarah Palin would get laughed out of parliament. Dunno, I don't see a country in Western/Central Europe where a candidate's PhD would be a liabilty.


Don't you wish the world gave a damn about German Politics so we could rip his government and general public because they covered every Silent-but-deadly fart any politician ever made?

But I have better things to do than look up German translated news stories unless they are really funny, like the couple that accidently blew up their apartment building and kill their neighbor because lighting a cigarette in a gas filled room sounded good.

If we were to listen to Arch, and actually believe half of the crap spewing from his mouth, Germans would have won WWII, or at least have taken over Europe by now. How did all these intellectual lightwieghts from around the globe manage to fight them off?

Ps- some of that was just for fun, but seriously, we need someone with more time and less of a life to start following German politics, and find their Sarah Palin...

Pps- yes, Arch, I know you love America, I read your link.

[freegood]

If you were to listen to Arch, you wouldn't believe any of the stuff you just wrote...

[Archangel]

The only reason people around the world care about American politics is because you're the only people who are liable to elect some guy who has both the wherewithal and the personality to blow up, say, Amsterdam because Jeyzus told him to. Nobody cares about your Senate races or your congressional hearings: But we will follow an election in which somebody who's likely to get Kabul and Karlsruhe mixed up may end up getting his/her hands on nuclear weapons. Simply put: We care about your politics since you voted for Dubya. Twice.
It's the same reason why the one guy in the neighbourhood whom everybody keeps an eye on is the one with the tank in his garage and the burning cross in his front yard. Just saying.

Oh, and we were beaten because an Austrian intellectual lightweight underestimated the strength in numbers and the determination of intellectual lightweights only 1,500 miles to the east. Get your facts right.

[Yelram]

The only reason people around the world care about American politics is because you're the only people who are liable to elect some guy who has both the wherewithal and the personality to blow up, say, Amsterdam because Jeyzus told him to. Nobody cares about your Senate races or your congressional hearings: But we will follow an election in which somebody who's likely to get Kabul and Karlsruhe mixed up may end up getting his/her hands on nuclear weapons. Simply put: We care about your politics since you voted for Dubya. Twice.
It's the same reason why the one guy in the neighbourhood whom everybody keeps an eye on is the one with the tank in his garage and the burning cross in his front yard. Just saying.

Oh, and we were beaten because an Austrian intellectual lightweight underestimated the strength in numbers and the determination of intellectual lightweights only 1,500 miles to the east. Get your facts right.

Yeah, because your countries bad decisions never effect anyone right?

[Archangel]

Ps- some of that was just for fun, but seriously, we need someone with more time and less of a life to start following German politics, and find their Sarah Palin...

Oh, we have a LOT of those. She (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Ypsilanti) probably tops the list. He (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Beck)'s not too far behind.
There are also these world-beaters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_%2790/The_Greens).

[Archangel]

Yeah, because your countries bad decisions never effect anyone right?
My country can't even decide anything on her own anymore, in case you hadn't noticed. There's this group called the "European Union" you may have heard about; so at least we cannot implement anypolicies that would affect our region negatively.

[redsox39]

The only reason people around the world care about American politics is because you're the only people who are liable to elect some guy who has both the wherewithal and the personality to blow up, say, Amsterdam because Jeyzus told him to. Nobody cares about your Senate races or your congressional hearings: But we will follow an election in which somebody who's likely to get Kabul and Karlsruhe mixed up may end up getting his/her hands on nuclear weapons. Simply put: We care about your politics since you voted for Dubya. Twice.
It's the same reason why the one guy in the neighbourhood whom everybody keeps an eye on is the one with the tank in his garage and the burning cross in his front yard. Just saying.

Oh, and we were beaten because an Austrian intellectual lightweight underestimated the strength in numbers and the determination of intellectual lightweights only 1,500 miles to the east. Get your facts right.

I wasn't implying America was the reason you lost, we rode the wave of victory for sure though, and lost a lot of good people.

And I also agree that Invading Russia at that time was borderline retarded.

I know (not really) that you guys have elected boneheads as well, we just don't hear about them over here. Hell, Italy's guy has to have naked pictures and call blacks "suntanned" before he gets his blip on the news over here.

In anycase, European's and Americans, while cut from the same cloth, are very different indeed.

[Archangel]

Berlusconi was elected due to his overwhelming popularity among the uneducated religious folk of Italy's less developed/rural regions. Hmm, whom does that remind me of..?

[Yelram]

My country can't even decide anything on her own anymore, in case you hadn't noticed. There's this group called the "European Union" you may have heard about; so at least we cannot implement anypolicies that would affect our region negatively.

So lets see here, you hired a ruthless genocidal dictator, killed millions of Jews, as a response the world community created Israel, now a source of constant war in the ME, then you go on to vote yourselves out of your own sovereignty. Sounds like a great political model, why doesnt the whole world just join along. Why cant we just get over our silly barbaric concerns about oppressive government control, and just go with the flow like you Europeans do.

And going back to WWII, If we didnt fight the Germans(and then the Russians) there would have been no Berlin wall because both sides would have been communist. So even if you make the argument that Russia beat Germany, not the US, we were there to insure that Russia didnt completely take you over.

[Archangel]

And we're very grateful for that.

[Yelram]

And we're very grateful for that.

And what did we get out of it? We lost US blood and money so that your country could become free again. I suppose we were ramming democracy down your throat or some rubbish. Germany is the perfect example of the inherent problems with a democracy. You finally break away from the communists, and now you're already in bed with the socialists. You just never learn, you always think you have some political philosophy that is superior to ours, and yet that isnt exactly apparent in your history.

[Archangel]

Yeah, Kant and Hegel were a right bunch of retards. That said, which communists did West Germany (by far the larger part) "finally break away from", to get "in bed with the socialists"? If memory serves, we had SPD chancellors (Brandt, Schmidt) WAY beore the Wall fell...

[Yelram]

Yeah, Kant and Hegel were a right bunch of retards. That said, which communists did West Germany (by far the larger part) "finally break away from", to get "in bed with the socialists"? If memory serves, we had SPD chancellors (Brandt, Schmidt) WAY beore the Wall fell...

They must be, since your political system now doesnt exactly espouse their philosophical views. And our political philosophers outdated them by a few years, and we have atleast been able to keep some semblance of their original intent.

Having a socialist party, and completely selling out your country for some sort of financial union, are two different things.

[Insomniac]

Have you lived in Germany, Yelram?

[Archangel]

Please. He's hardly ever been out of his cave...

[Charlatan]

Unfortunately, Republicans have convinced the masses that electing our society's elite into public office will necessarily result in elitism (elites looking out for elites at the expense of everybody else), and that everybody but the Republican candidate is an elitist snob, which is insultingly ridiculous. We want elites in the government, we need elites running our country. The trick is to figure out which elites will use their ability to serve the public interest.

And for fuck's sake, somebody invisi-ban Yelram.

[Yelram]

Please. He's hardly ever been out of his cave...

I see you didnt respond to my original post.

[freegood]

Yelram, there are times when you're so batshit out of your mind that responding to you is like being the chump on the receiving end of a prank call.

[Yelram]

Yelram, there are times when you're so batshit out of your mind that responding to you is like being the chump on the receiving end of a prank call.
Please, show me where I stepped out of line. I'd really appreciate your time.

[Insomniac]

And what did we get out of it? We lost US blood and money so that your country could become free again. I suppose we were ramming democracy down your throat or some rubbish. Germany is the perfect example of the inherent problems with a democracy. You finally break away from the communists, and now you're already in bed with the socialists. You just never learn, you always think you have some political philosophy that is superior to ours, and yet that isnt exactly apparent in your history.

I'm going to go with right here, mate.

[Pike Bishop]

I think part of the problem is that people are using "elitism" and "intellectualism" as synonymous -- they are not. One is a defect of personality, one is an issue of qualification.

I do not like elitists as they think they are better than other people -- whether because they have more money, better athletic skills, or think they have greater intellect. I don't like people like that.

Elitism is just an epithet for the financially fortunate and intellectually second-rate to hurl at the few genuinely intelligent folks who have managed to succeed in spite of their abilities. In effect they are saying, "I have successful parents who could afford to send me to a good school, why won't you accept me even though I am conspicuously lacking in talent and intelligence?"

These people need to STFU already. I prefer the company of intelligent people, even if they are working on the lube rack or cutting down trees because their parents couldn't afford to send them to college. It's not a value judgment; I do not consider myself to be superior to people who aren't very smart, I just have difficulty relating to, and therefore conversing with, anyone as stupid as the average American suburbanite.