Mumbai Attacked

[Le Goat]

I'm at the airport and just got the news, someone plesae post link to article.

[Morfin]

Scores killed in Mumbai rampage

(CNN) -- Gunmen rampaged through a series of targets in the Indian city of Mumbai killing indiscriminately and taking hostages at two luxury hotels.

Mumbai police spokesman Satish Katsa said gunmen have taken over the Taj Mahal Hotel and Hotel Oberoi, and were holding hostages on multiple floors.

Earlier, A.N. Roy, the police chief of Maharashtra state, said there were ongoing battles at the two five-star hotels.

CNN-IBN, CNN's sister station in India, reported at least two explosions at the Taj.

One witness told local reporters gunmen had tried to find people with U.S. or British passports.

IBN, quoting police sources, reported hostages were taken at the both hotels.

Gunmen armed with automatic weapons and grenades hit the hotels, a cafe, a train station and other sites in coordinated attacks, police say.

Maharashtra state government spokesman Bhushan Gagri said 78 people killed and about 200 wounded, while police confirmed 26 deaths.

Among the dead is the head of the Maharashtra state's anti-terror squad, who apparently died in the violent aftermath of the attacks rather than being a target for the killers.

The attacks included five shootouts and two grenade attacks, said a police officer at Mumbai's police control room.

Video showed scenes of chaos, with people crowding Mumbai's streets, some helping others who appeared to be wounded

The attacks began about 2230 local time (1700 GMT) and more than two hours later witnesses were reporting new explosions and gunfire.

The targets include businesses frequented by international visitors in the city which is India's financial center.

CNN correspondent Andrew Stevens said: "We do not know if this has reached its peak or if more attacks to come."

A local journalist told CNN he had seen evidence of an attack at the city's domestic airport, which is on the outskirts of the Mumbai.

IBN reported explosions at a gas station and inside a taxi on a dockside road.

Attacks were reported at the Taj and Oberoi hotels, the popular Café Leopold, and Cama Hospital, and the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus railway station.

India has suffered a number of attacks in recent years, including a string of bombs that ripped through packed Mumbai commuter trains and platforms during rush hour in July 2006. About 209 people were killed in that attack.

Last July, a series of synchronized bomb blasts in the western Indian city of Ahmedabad left 49 dead and more than 100 wounded, police said.

But Paresh Parihar, a businessman in Mumbai, described Wednesday's attacks as unlike anything he had seen.

"They really don't fear for their lives or any other activity that could put them in danger," he told CNN. "This is really a very unusual situation."

U.S. State Department spokesman Robert Wood said: "We are monitoring the situation very closely and stand ready to support the Indian authorities as they deal with this horrific series of attacks." Link (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/india.attacks/index.html)

[Morfin]

CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/) has a streaming video report. Here is a CNN video link. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/india.attacks/index.html#cnnSTCVideo)

The video contains a statement that the Grand Hyatt Hotel has metal-detectors and is not one of the hotels involved, but the two hotels involved have no such precautions.

[Desperado]

Yahoo has a good article as well...


Gunmen kill at least 78 in 7 attacks in Mumbai


MUMBAI, India – Teams of heavily armed gunmen stormed luxury hotels, a popular tourist attraction and a crowded train station in at least seven attacks in India's financial capital, killing at least 78 people and wounding at least 200, officials said Thursday. The gunmen were specifically targeting Britons and Americans and a top police official said the gunmen are holding hostages at two luxury hotels, the Taj Mahal and Oberoi hotels.
A media report said a little-known group, the Deccan Mujahideen, has claimed responsibility for the attacks. The Press Trust of India news agency said Thursday the group sent emails to several media outlets.
The gunmen also attacked police headquarters in south Mumbai, the area where most of the attacks, which began late Wednesday and continued into Thursday morning, took place.
"We are under fire, there is shooting at the gate," said constable A. Shetti by phone from police headquarters.
Hours after the first attacks, A.N. Roy, a senior police officer, said police continued to battle the gunmen.
"The terrorists have used automatic weapons and in some places grenades have been lobbed, the encounters are still going on and we are trying to overpower them," Roy said.
Johnny Joseph, chief secretary for Maharashtra state, of which Mumbai is the capital, said 78 people had been killed and 200 had been injured.
The motive for the attacks was not immediately clear but Mumbai has frequently been targeted in terror attacks, often blamed on Muslim militants, including a series of blasts in July 2007 that killed 187 people.
Gunmen opened fire on two of the city's best known luxury hotels, the Taj Mahal and the Oberoi. They also attacked the crowded Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus station in southern Mumbai and Leopold's restaurant, a Mumbai landmark.
A British restaurant-goer at the Oberoi told Sky News television that the attackers were singling out Britons and Americans.
Alex Chamberlain said a gunman, a young man of 22 or 23, ushered 30 or 40 people from the restaurant into a stairway and ordered everyone to put up their hands.
"They were talking about British and Americans specifically. There was an Italian guy, who, you know, they said: 'Where are you from?" and he said he's from Italy and they said 'fine' and they left him alone. And I thought: 'Fine, they're going to shoot me if they ask me anything — and thank God they didn't," he said.
Chamberlain said the gunman spoke in Hindi or Urdu.
He managed to slip away from the group as they were forced to walk up the stairs, but said most of the group was still being kept hostage.
Early Thursday morning, several European lawmakers were among those still barricaded inside the Taj, a century-old seaside hotel complex and one of the city's best-known destinations.
"I was in the main lobby and there was all of a sudden a lot of firing outside," said Sajjad Karim, part of a delegation of European lawmakers visiting Mumbai ahead of a forthcoming EU-India summit. He turned to get away "and all of a sudden another gunmen appeared in front of us, carrying machine gun-type weapons. And he just started firing at us ... I just turned and ran in the opposite direction," he told The Associated Press over his mobile phone.
Hours later, he remained holed up in a hotel restaurant, unsure if the incident was over, and whether it was safe to come out.
At the Oberoi, police officer P.I. Patil said shots had been fired inside and the hotel had been cordoned off. He would not give any other details.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081126/ap_on_re_as/as_india_shooting

[Le Goat]

CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/) has a streaming video report. Here is a CNN video link. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/india.attacks/index.html#cnnSTCVideo)

The video contains a statement that the Grand Hyatt Hotel has metal-detectors and is not one of the hotels involved, but the two hotels involved have no such precautions.

That doesn't mean a thing. The terrorists stormed the hotels. Not snuck in

[Morfin]

Good point. But given the report I saw on CNN about lax security and no emergency precautions or equipment, it could indicate that the others were easier to hit.

[moe_blunts]

meh...........just a few more dead brown people. india could probably use a few more of these considering the # of people/area of land ratio.

[Alcestis]

meh...........just a few more dead brown people. india could probably use a few more of these considering the # of people/area of land ratio.

The terrorist seem to targeting Westerns.

[Will]

Latest news on UK is around 80 dead, 250 injured.

Terrorists have hostages at Taj Mahal hotel and one other, targeting anyone with US/British passports so presumably these are who they are holding.

The army is trying to take control of the attacked hotels, although the Taj Mahal is currently on fire. Lots of different hotels attacked, and also a hospital and the main train station.

A group called the "Deccan Mujahaddeen" have claimed responsibility. Score another one for the wonders of religion.

[Insomniac]

Durka durka

[wonderllama]

Americans and English apparently being targeted...
What a delightful situation...supposed to be a big Cricket Tournament starting there next week too...

[Archangel]

meh...........just a few more dead brown people. india could probably use a few more of these considering the # of people/area of land ratio.
And the rest of the world could do with a lot less dumbarse ignorant emo dickheads.

That said, how did this happen? Did somebody who could read and write call Muslims violent, and they proceeded to prove him wrong in this manner?

[riseabove!]

India is/always will be shitty

[comicfan]

India is/always will be shitty


Says someone who has probably never been there. India is quite beautiful, just filled with alot of poverty unfortunately.

[riseabove!]

India is/always will be shitty


Says someone who has probably never been there. India is quite beautiful, just filled with alot of poverty unfortunately.
I wasn't talking about the physical attributes of the country, just the rampart poverty and ya know... the plague

[noahsdove]

I cant wait o have my freedom turkey and stuffing tomorow followed by pecan pie and ice cream

[Philips25]

Watching Channel 4 news atm... its still going on.

More than 100 people are dead and almost 300 injured after a night of terror attacks in the Indian city of Mumbai.

Westerners were taken hostage by gunmen and Indian officials said a Briton, an Australian and a Japanese man were killed during a series of co-ordinated strikes in the city's wealthy tourist and business districts.

Indian troops were involved in gun battles with terrorists holed up inside two luxury hotels - the Oberoi and Taj Mahal - which were targeted alongside the main train station, a restaurant and a hospital.

Sir Richard Stagg, the British High Commissioner, said at least seven Britons had been injured in the attacks and are recovering in hospital. An emergency hotline has been set up for people worried about friends or relatives on 0207 008 0000.

The Foreign Office has updated its travel advice to the region in light of the attacks.

A statement on the department's website urges against all but essential travel to Mumbai.

Anyone living in the city should "stay indoors until local authorities advise it is safe to go outside," it urges.

Meanwhile, the government has flown out a rapid deployment team from London to help British officials on the ground.

The team - set up to assist British nationals in emergency situations - includes two Red Cross emotional support officers.

The Deputy High Commission in Mumbai has also drafted in additional staff from New Delhi.

Witnesses have been describing the attacks.

Alex Chamberlain, who works for a sports website and is in the city on business, said he believed the gunmen were looking for British and American visitors.

He said: "They told everybody to stop and put their hands up and asked if there were any British or Americans. I am sure that is what this is all about. They were talking about British and Americans specifically."

Mumbai director general of police, A N Roy, told local media that there was no longer a hostage-type situation at the Taj, adding that the terror attacks had been a "very well planned and large operation".

"This is an unprecedented, very cowardly, dastardly attack. It is an attack on the entire country, the innocent population," he said.

An organisation calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen claimed it was behind the attacks. The previously little known group sent an email to news organisations claiming responsibility.

British Euro MP Sajjad Karim, who is part of a trade delegation visiting Mumbai for talks, described how the gunmen sprayed bullets indiscriminately into crowds of people.

He said: "I was in the lobby of the hotel when gunmen came in and people started running. There were about 25 or 30 of us.

"Some of us split one way and some another. A gunman just stood there spraying bullets around, right next to me. I managed to turn away and I ran into the hotel kitchen and then we were shunted into a restaurant in the basement."

He described how as he ran from the lobby, he saw people falling and said it seemed to be a "random attack".

Cheryl Robinson, a British tourist who was trapped at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel, said she sheltered under a table during the attack.

She said: "We were at dinner when we heard shots fired. There was gunfire and explosions. The hotel staff told us to be quiet. The staff were stupendous. They locked the doors and warned us to sit tight."

Ms Robinson said rooms were flooded with water after a pipe burst in the chaos of the gunshots and blasts. "We lay down in the water. We could hear the sound of people running outside. It was terrifying."

India has suffered a wave of bomb attacks in recent years. Most have been blamed on Islamist militants, although police have also arrested suspected Hindu extremists thought to be behind some of the attacks.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband condemned the attacks, saying: "The attacks in Mumbai which have claimed many innocent victims, remind us, yet again, of the threat we face from violent extremists.

"I condemn these attacks unreservedly. Our thoughts are with the families and friends of those killed and injured. The UK and India will continue their joint efforts to counter the actions of terrorists."

Prime Minister Gordon Brown described the attacks as "outrageous" and said they would be met with a "vigorous response".

[Philips25]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45244000/jpg/_45244903_ambulance_afp466.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45244000/jpg/_45244862_-8.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45244000/jpg/_45244538_31d27e97-dad6-4eb8-9d5f-98200b7df916.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45244000/jpg/_45244535_b5a2f80c-2bf5-4672-8a6a-ec8dfcccbff3.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45244000/jpg/_45244695_-142.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45245000/jpg/_45245017_-24.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7751360.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7752003.stm

[Philips25]

Indian security forces have surrounded two hotels in Mumbai, the Trident Oberoi and the Taj Mahal Palace, which were taken over by gunmen who launched co-ordinated attacks in the city on Wednesday that have so far left more than 100 people dead.


Mumbai rocked by deadly attacks
Keep up with events as they unfold here. All times are in GMT.

1203 India's NDTV is reporting that regular gunfire can be heard at the Trident Oberoi Hotel.

1201 Alpesh Patel, a businessman who works for the UK government advising firms on Anglo-Indian trade, says that "life will go on" in the business world despite the attacks. "Business cannot afford to ignore what's one of the fastest-growing economies in the world," he tells BBC World News.


1200 Mark Coutts-Smith, who was staying at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel, says: I got out immediately after the first attack in the lobby. I stood in the front of the hotel and watch the whole thing for over 12 hours. I saw the whole thing and avoided some of the drama.

I just missed it through some fluke. I came into the lobby after the gunmen had passed through it. They first went into Taj Palace lobby. I was completely unaware of that for various reasons. I then entered the Taj Towers lobby to find it completely deserted. There was a strange smell. I had not heard the shooting. Then I saw some security people who came in grabbed me and frogmarched me and threw me into the plaza. Then we stood in the plaza and watched it right through.

1149 Ramesh Kallidai of the Hindu Forum of Britain says the Mumbai attacks will send a shudder of fear through Indian communities. "Every time there is a terror attack in India, there is a great concern here in Britain because we have emotional and family links," he tells the Reuters news agency.

1146 A fire is raging inside the Taj Mahal Palace hotel. The fire brigade has just gone into the building.

1145 Jason Burke, a Pakistan-based journalist and expert on Islamist militants, tells BBC World News that its "too early" to tell whether the attacks were carried out by a foreign group, as India's prime minister has said. "It's not uncommon after such attacks that the Indian government blames terrorists from Pakistan," he says. "Pakistan is likely to respond and we could see a very nasty diplomatic crisis coming out of this which is what the group behind the attacks wanted to provoke."

1139 Maharashtra state police chief AN Roy is quoted by the AFP news agency as saying: "We are in the final stages of operations. We are confident that we'll be able to counter the terrorists." Mr Roy did not say how many gunmen were still thought to be inside the two hotels. He said there were no hostages at the Taj Mahal Palace, but "still quite a few" at the Trident Oberoi.

1137 The president of Pakistan, Asif Ali Zardari, has spoken of the need for strong measures to eradicate terrorism and extremism following the Mumbai attacks. His Prime Minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, has meanwhile called for concerted efforts to make the region a peaceful place to live. Sri Lankan President Mahinda Rajapaksa has said the attacks showed that terrorists were trying to destabilise democracy by targeting an important centre of the Indian economy.

1135 The BBC's Rahul Tandon says: Mumbai is normally a bustling city, at the moment the streets are quiet. Offices and schools are shut. It is going to take some time for India's economic capital to return to normal.

1130 Local television pictures appear to show some hostages have been rescued from the Trident Oberoi hotel. Other hostages can be seen at the building's windows.

1125 Bangladesh's acting Foreign Minister, Iftekhar Ahmed Chowdhury, has "condemned in the strongest terms" the attacks in Mumbai. He says he has written to his Indian counterpart to tell him "these are acts of terrorism and terrorism serves no purpose".



Journalist outside the Taj Mahal hotel says security forces are securing the building 'floor by floor'

1120 Prime Minister Manmohan Singh says that "existing laws will be tightened to ensure there are no loopholes available to terrorists to escape the clutches of the law". He also pledges to restrict the entry of suspects into the country and make sure "every perpetrator, organiser or supporter of terror pays the price" for the attacks. "We will tell our neighbours that their territory being used to carry out attacks in India will not be tolerated. I'm confident the people of India will rise united to face this challenge to the country's security and integrity," he concludes.

1114 There has been another massive explosion at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel - the second in about 15 minutes, reports say. Smoke can be seen billowing out of the building.

1113 Mr Singh says the attackers were "intent on creating a sense of panic by choosing high-profile targets" and praises the courage of police. "It is evident that the group which carried out the attacks is based outside the country, it came with the single-minded determination to carry out havoc in the financial capital of the country," he adds.

1110 Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh says in a televised address that his government will "take all necessary measures to look after the well-being of affected families".

1108 Indian government asks for live Twitter updates from Mumbai to cease immediately. "ALL LIVE UPDATES - PLEASE STOP TWEETING about #Mumbai police and military operations," a tweet says.

1105 India's Times Now television channel reports that "the loudest possible explosion we've heard in the last 15 hours has come from the Taj hotel in the last few minutes". It says an ambulance has just arrived at the hotel's main entrance.

1103 Security forces have also surrounded Nariman House, a five-story residential building near the Trident Oberoi hotel that contains an office of the Jewish outreach group, Chabad Lubavitch. Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the group's main representative, is thought to have been taken hostage. Reports say his wife and daughter have been freed. The Reuters news agency says that four gunmen remain in the building. There have been reports of gunfire.

1100 The Indian navy says its forces have boarded a cargo vessel they believe to be linked to the attacks, the Associated Press news agency reports. Navy spokesman Capt Manohar Nambiar says the MV Alpha had recently come to Mumbai from Karachi, Pakistan.

1057 Dr Robert Bradnock, an expert on South Asian politics at Kings College, London, tells the BBC the Indian government had already been under pressure for failing to cut the number of attacks in Mumbai before Wednesday. He says the government is trying to engage opposition politicians in a bid to create a consensus on how best to approach the problem. The ruling Congress party is facing a test as voting in four state elections get underway on Thursday.

1050 The Mumbai stock exchange and commodities exchange - India's main financial markets - have been closed for the day, and many offices are shut. Airlines say flights in and out of Mumbai are largely unaffected, but they are monitoring the situation.

1045 Middlesex captain Shaun Udal says it was a "sensible decision" to postpone the Champions League Twenty20 cricket tournament. "I don't see any point carrying on with the tournament in such circumstances," he tells Sky Sports News.

1044 Mumbai resident Malini Agrewal tells BBC World News TV she had initially thought the explosions at the Trident Oberoi hotel, opposite where she lives, were "fireworks, perhaps a celebration to do with the cricket". "We had no idea what we were dealing with. Then there were two tremors. Flames started to erupt from the hotel," she says.

1040 The head of the governing Indian National Congress, Sonia Gandhi, has strongly condemned the attacks. "The dastardly terrorist attack in Mumbai is an act of cowardice and deserves the strongest condemnation," she tells reporters in Delhi. "I urge the people of Mumbai to remain calm and firm in these testing times. I'm confident that the resilience of the people of Mumbai shall remain undeterred."

1037 Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is to address the nation on television at 1630 local time (1100 GMT), the government says.

1029 Maj Gen RK Hooda, commander of the army in Maharashtra state, tells local TV channels that members of the National Security Guard are doing a room-by-room search of the Taj Mahal Palace hotel. He says: "They started from the top floor and have come down to the 21st floor. There are 365 rooms to be searched... We don't know about the number of hostages. We know there are four to five terrorists."

1028 British MEP Sajjad Karim, who spent the night barricaded in the basement of the Taj Mahal Palace hotel, tells BBC World News TV that guests had fled one gunmen at the hotel's entrance only to be confronted by another at the back. "He had quite a large machine gun in his hand and simply pointed it towards the crowd and started to use it. Pure instinct takes over. As soon as the first shots were fired, I saw a few people go down and I, along with everyone else, turned and fled," he says. Mr Karim says the streets of central Mumbai are now "incredibly quiet".

1025 The CNN-ibn television channel reports from one of Mumbai's railway stations that there are very few people out and about. One commuter said his train was virtually empty.

1015 Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang says that the Chinese government strongly condemns the attacks in Mumbai. "China always opposes terrorist attacks of any kind, and we express our condolences to the victims," he says.

1008 India's Times Now television channel reports a loud explosion outside the Oberoi hotel - the sixth in the last 35 minutes, it says.

1006BBC Correspondent Mark Dummet says: Police seem to be taking a softly-softly approach, rather than charging in to the Taj Mahal Palace hotel. That explains why it has taken so long to get through the hotel and why they have not cleared every corner.

1004: Jake Betts, a British lawyer who lives and works close to the Oberoi Hotel tells BBC World that the large number of foreigners working in Mumbai feel targeted. "At the moment we're just sitting tight in our flat, trying to stay safe because we're very close to everything. But when this all is over... we're definitely going to have to re-appraise [our situation]," he says.

1000 The director-general of the UK's Federation of Tour Operators says the "handful" of British nationals who had booked a holiday in Mumbai through its members had been accounted for and were safe.

0958 The Champions League Twenty20 cricket tournament has been postponed in the wake of the Mumbai attacks, organisers say.

0955 India's NDTV is broadcasting live pictures of commandos taking position outside the Taj Mahal Palace hotel. Gunshots can be heard.

0950 India's Times Now television channel reports that at least five explosions have been heard at the Oberoi hotel in quick succession in the past few minutes. It also says Indian navy helicopters, assisted by the coast guard, are chasing a trawler in the Arabian Sea that is believed to have transported the gunmen to Mumbai.

0943BBC Correspondent Mark Dummet, speaking outside the Taj Mahal Palace hotel, says: There have been two further explosions at the hotel, followed by a round of gunfire. Clearly the situation remains uncertain and remains dangerous.

0936 Bachi Karkaria, of the Times of India, tells the BBC that Mumbai has been "terribly shaken" by the attacks. "No-one is safe and nothing can be taken for granted," she says.

0930 Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd expresses concern about the attacks in Mumbai. He says: "We are deeply concerned by these developments, deeply concerned by the potential impact on Indian citizens and other citizens, and we will have further to say about this during the course of the day."

0924 Security expert Rahul Roy Chaudhury, from the International Institute for Strategic Studies, tells the BBC that it could be some time before the Taj Mahal Palace hotel is given the all-clear. He says: "The security services will have to go from room-to-room to make sure the hotel is entirely free of terrorists," adding the gunmen could try to slip out among Indian nationals who had been taken hostage.

0920BBC Correspondent Mark Dummet, speaking outside the main entrance of the Taj Mahal Palace hotel, says: I have seen armed soldiers leading out a dozen or so of the guests, one of the men being carried by a soldier to a series of ambulances which are lined up here. It would seem as if the siege here at the Taj Hotel is over.



Eyewitness reaction and local TV footage from the scene

0915 Indian security forces have surrounded two of the top hotels in Mumbai, the Trident Oberoi and the Taj Mahal Palace, which were taken over by gunmen who launched co-ordinated attacks in the city late on Wednesday that have so far left 101 people dead and 287 injured. Hostages are reported to have been taken in both hotels, and commandos have been brought in to try to regain control of the buildings. Officials say another eight locations were attacked, but these have now been secured. Four attackers have been killed and nine arrested, they add.

A little-known group calling itself the Deccan Mujahedeen has said it carried out the attacks. The claim was made in a series of e-mails sent to news organisations. Mumbai city officials have recommended residents stay indoors and the country's leading stock exchange has been closed for the day.

[Philips25]

Keep on hitting refresh on the BBCs news feed;





1215 Television cameras have captured shots of people escaping from the Taj Mahal Palace hotel by climbing down drainpipes.

1213 BBC Correspondent Mark Dummet says: The explosions in the last 90 minutes at the Taj Mahal Palace hotel could signal a change in tactics by security forces. It's clear there's still a major confrontation going on here between the security forces who have surrounded these buildings and the handful of gunmen still holding out inside. Every so often another ambulance roars away from here. We don't know who's inside.

1205 The owners of the Taj Mahal Palace hotel say they are "monitoring the development of the unfortunate situation unfolding... and are fully co-operating with the police and the government authorities who are working towards the safety and security of all our guests and staff". "We will rebuild every inch that has been damaged in this attack and bring back the Taj to its full glory," they add.

1203 India's NDTV is reporting that regular gunfire can be heard at the Trident Oberoi Hotel.

[Archangel]

"No, but Islam is religion of peace! We no want hurt nobody! Please do not boycott my business - delicious kebap for all you dirty infidel Western dogs!"

[Philips25]

1229 India's Times Now television channel is reporting another round of gunfire at the Oberoi Trident Hotel. It says one militant has been arrested at at the hotel, where 40 people are still being held hostage.

1225 An gunman holed up in Nariman House has asked the Indian government to talk and offered to release hostages, according to the Reuters news agency. He has phoned an Indian TV station to say he acted in response to the killing of Muslims by Indian troops in Kashmir.

1219 The AFP news agency quotes the German foreign ministry as confirming that one German national has been killed and several injured in the attacks.

[Archangel]

The word "subhumans" keeps popping up in my mind.

[Archangel]

If 1 billion Muslims disappeared off the face of the Earth tomorrow, I'm pretty sure that all in all, it would be a net gain for human society.

Name one way in which the world would be negatively affected.

[Archangel]

The problem with these animals is that they believe that they will go to some fairy-tale heaven for killing unarmed tourists.

The only way to give them pause is to make it unmistakeably clear that heaven is not in their future: Catch them alive, bathe the fucks in pig's blood and feed them the used tampons of Jewish prostitutes before gunning them down in public square. You might have killed 500 schoolchildren and 200 relief workers, Abdullah (or done some similarly heroic Muslim deed), but there's no fucking way that you're going to heaven with Jewish period blood in your mouth.

[Claydon]

The problem with these animals is that they believe that they will go to some fairy-tale heaven for killing unarmed tourists.

The only way to give them pause is to make it unmistakeably clear that heaven is not in their future: Catch them alive, bathe the fucks in pig's blood and feed them the used tampons of Jewish prostitutes before gunning them down in public square. You might have killed 500 schoolchildren and 200 relief workers, Abdullah (or done some similarly heroic Muslim deed), but there's no fucking way that you're going to heaven with Jewish period blood in your mouth.

Sounds like what they were doing with them at Gitmo, wrapping them in the Israeli flag, large breasted women rubbing their bikini clad bodies against them. Fuckers got that shit for free and we have to pay for the pleasure......oh the irony. (by pleasure i am referring to the bikini clad female not the israeli flag).

[Claydon]

thought I would dust off this old chestnut!

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c145/idexx/ARCVH.jpg

[Okie Medicvet]

'what if' this escalates tensions between Pakistan and India and they go nuclear? well here is one possibility:

http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/southasia.asp

[Snatch]

At least none of this shit has happened in the US since 9/11.

I will say one thing, they went in with guns and not bombs. They're actually fighting.

Normally these pussy faggots surrender, surrender, surrender.

[Okie Medicvet]

Possible Geopolitical Consequences of the Mumbai Attacks (Open Access)
Stratfor Today » November 27, 2008 | 0434 GMT

If the Nov. 26 attacks in Mumbai were carried out by Islamist militants as it appears, the Indian government will have little choice, politically speaking, but to blame them on Pakistan. That will in turn spark a crisis between the two nuclear rivals that will draw the United States into the fray.


At this point the situation on the ground in Mumbai remains unclear following the militant attacks of Nov. 26. But in order to understand the geopolitical significance of what is going on, it is necessary to begin looking beyond this event at what will follow. Though the situation is still in motion, the likely consequences of the attack are less murky.

We will begin by assuming that the attackers are Islamist militant groups operating in India, possibly with some level of outside support from Pakistan. We can also see quite clearly that this was a carefully planned, well-executed attack.

Given this, the Indian government has two choices. First, it can simply say that the perpetrators are a domestic group. In that case, it will be held accountable for a failure of enormous proportions in security and law enforcement. It will be charged with being unable to protect the public. On the other hand, it can link the attack to an outside power: Pakistan. In that case it can hold a nation-state responsible for the attack, and can use the crisis atmosphere to strengthen the government’s internal position by invoking nationalism. Politically this is a much preferable outcome for the Indian government, and so it is the most likely course of action. This is not to say that there are no outside powers involved — simply that, regardless of the ground truth, the Indian government will claim there were.

That, in turn, will plunge India and Pakistan into the worst crisis they have had since 2002. If the Pakistanis are understood to be responsible for the attack, then the Indians must hold them responsible, and that means they will have to take action in retaliation — otherwise, the Indian government’s domestic credibility will plunge. The shape of the crisis, then, will consist of demands that the Pakistanis take immediate steps to suppress Islamist radicals across the board, but particularly in Kashmir. New Delhi will demand that this action be immediate and public. This demand will come parallel to U.S. demands for the same actions, and threats by incoming U.S. President Barack Obama to force greater cooperation from Pakistan.

If that happens, Pakistan will find itself in a nutcracker. On the one side, the Indians will be threatening action — deliberately vague but menacing — along with the Americans. This will be even more intense if it turns out, as currently seems likely, that Americans and Europeans were being held hostage (or worse) in the two hotels that were attacked. If the attacks are traced to Pakistan, American demands will escalate well in advance of inauguration day.

There is a precedent for this. In 2002 there was an attack on the Indian parliament in Mumbai by Islamist militants linked to Pakistan. A near-nuclear confrontation took place between India and Pakistan, in which the United States brokered a stand-down in return for intensified Pakistani pressure on the Islamists. The crisis helped redefine the Pakistani position on Islamist radicals in Pakistan.

In the current iteration, the demands will be even more intense. The Indians and Americans will have a joint interest in forcing the Pakistani government to act decisively and immediately. The Pakistani government has warned that such pressure could destabilize Pakistan. The Indians will not be in a position to moderate their position, and the Americans will see the situation as an opportunity to extract major concessions. Thus the crisis will directly intersect U.S. and NATO operations in Afghanistan.

It is not clear the degree to which the Pakistani government can control the situation. But the Indians will have no choice but to be assertive, and the United States will move along the same line. Whether it is the current government in India that reacts, or one that succeeds doesn’t matter. Either way, India is under enormous pressure to respond. Therefore the events point to a serious crisis not simply between Pakistan and India, but within Pakistan as well, with the government caught between foreign powers and domestic realities. Given the circumstances, massive destabilization is possible — never a good thing with a nuclear power.

This is thinking far ahead of the curve, and is based on an assumption of the truth of something we don’t know for certain yet, which is that the attackers were Muslims and that the Pakistanis will not be able to demonstrate categorically that they weren’t involved. Since we suspect they were Muslims, and since we doubt the Pakistanis can be categorical and convincing enough to thwart Indian demands, we suspect that we will be deep into a crisis within the next few days, very shortly after the situation on the ground clarifies itself.

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20081126_red_alert

[Snatch]

I miss and <3 Bombay.

[Archangel]

I will say one thing, they went in with guns and not bombs. They're actually fighting.

Yeah, wow, AK-47s against hotel lobby security and a bunch of tourists. Some fucking fighters they are.

[CarsyCarsten]

I just hope India won't nuke Pakistan or the other way round.

Off-Topic: Hey that drawing of Arch is actually pretty good ^^

[Archangel]

That's not me, that's Hiro Nakamura from Heroes, smartarse.

[Kerjack]

That's not me, that's Hiro Nakamura from Heroes, smartarse.

You're Hiro Nakamura from Heroes?

[papillon]

MUMBAI DRIVE-BAI

cca_1227755968

[Morfin]

That's not me, that's Hiro Nakamura from Heroes, smartarse.

You're Hiro Nakamura from Heroes?

Six of one...

[Claydon]

That's not me, that's Hiro Nakamura from Heroes, smartarse.

YOU LIE!

[lusonico]

Gee, who would have guess? Muslims, this is so uncharacteristic of them.

[Le Goat]

02c_1227765670

cca_1227755968

300_1227736390

[vicar in a tutu]

Gee, who would have guess? Muslims, this is so uncharacteristic of them.

That's right sibling it is. I hate how Muslim fundamentalist terrorists just get labelled as "Muslims" what about the vast majority of ordinary Muslims who are peace-loving and abhor violence? We never used to refer to the IRA as "Catholics" did we?

[Archangel]

If the rest of the fucking Muslims love peace so much, maybe they could show it by not supporting these animals?

I mean, openly opposing them is too much to ask, probably: Rioting and burning embassies is so much more fun than marching for peace, I guess.

[vicar in a tutu]

If the rest of the fucking Muslims love peace so much, maybe they could show it by not supporting these animals?

I mean, openly opposing them is too much to ask, probably: Rioting and burning embassies is so much more fun than marching for peace, I guess.

The Muslim council of Britain have openly opposed and spoken out against such actions. Stop generalising!

Did we see the Catholic church condemning the IRA? Fuck me Americans funded them for decades?

[Snatch]

If the rest of the fucking Muslims love peace so much, maybe they could show it by not supporting these animals?

I mean, openly opposing them is too much to ask, probably: Rioting and burning embassies is so much more fun than marching for peace, I guess.

The Muslim council of Britain have openly opposed and spoken out against such actions. Stop generalising!

Did we see the Catholic church condemning the IRA? Fuck me Americans funded them for decades?

The American Irish supported them.

The Catholic Church has nothing to do with the United States. The United States hates the Catholic Church.

Also, please don't equate the IRA to these animals. There's a difference when violence goes both ways, and lasts for decades vs. centuries. Also, you never saw Irish kids shows with messages supporting murdering every single protestant.

[vicar in a tutu]

If the rest of the fucking Muslims love peace so much, maybe they could show it by not supporting these animals?

I mean, openly opposing them is too much to ask, probably: Rioting and burning embassies is so much more fun than marching for peace, I guess.

The Muslim council of Britain have openly opposed and spoken out against such actions. Stop generalising!

Did we see the Catholic church condemning the IRA? Fuck me Americans funded them for decades?

The American Irish supported them.

The Catholic Church has nothing to do with the United States. The United States hates the Catholic Church.

Also, please don't equate the IRA to these animals. There's a difference when violence goes both ways, and lasts for decades vs. centuries. Also, you never saw Irish kids shows with messages supporting murdering every single protestant.

Put down the crackpipe and move slowly away from the computer.

So the IRA weren't animals then? What were they nice, good, friendly white terrorists or something? Me saying America supports the IRA ia the same as calling these terrorists Muslims, it's generalisation isn't it?

The IRA killed innocent people by leaving bombs under tables in packed pubs and in dustbins in busy city centres. They were animals of the very highest order sunshine!

[Claydon]

I can't seem to remember the IRA running into a hotel, bus, restaurant, with a vest of c4 with ball bearings and nails and punching the detonator. I know the IRA killed civilians but their targets were always the british government.

[vicar in a tutu]

I can't seem to remember the IRA running into a hotel, bus, restaurant, with a vest of c4 with ball bearings and nails and punching the detonator. I know the IRA killed civilians but their targets were always the british government.

Utter shit!

Tell that to the 29 people who died in the Birmingham pub bombings or the Manchester shopping centre bombing. They targetted civillians which make them scum in my opinion.

I suggest one or two of you do a bit of research about the fuckers before posting such crap!

[Claydon]

dude, im not defending the IRA here.

[Morfin]

The American Irish supported them.

The Catholic Church has nothing to do with the United States. The United States hates the Catholic Church.

Also, please don't equate the IRA to these animals. There's a difference when violence goes both ways, and lasts for decades vs. centuries. Also, you never saw Irish kids shows with messages supporting murdering every single protestant.

Jesus Christ! Generalize much?

Yes, some american Irish supported them -- THE VAST MAJORITY DID NOT.

Yes, some Americans dislike the Catholic Church --- THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DO NOT.

The IRA indiscriminately injured civilians in a conscious decision to use terrorism to achieve their ends. Don't for a minute claim that the IRA had some sort of moral perogative to do what they did.

[Claydon]

Oh yah and another thing to add to this tangent, the IRA could be negotiated with, muslims/radical muslims/whatever the fuck you want to call them have proven themselves to be completely devoid of any concept of civility. Shall we go through the lists of embassies they have destroyed as well as diplomatic staff they have kidnapped and held hostage.

[Morfin]

The tangent is more fun than the regular thread -- everyone hates Muslim terrorists while the IRA is more debatable.

[Claydon]

Christ sakes, we invaded Iraq but we didn't imprison or go after the Iraqi ambassador at the UN.

[Archangel]

The Muslim council of Britain have openly opposed and spoken out against such actions. Stop generalising!
Oh, great, some Muslims paid lip cervice to civility so that their businesses wouldn't be negatively affected. Meanwhile, thousands of British Muslims march carrying signs about beheading the enemies of Islam and instituting Shari'a in Britain, and the government accomodates them, while many imams and mullahs in Europe keep preaching that jihad faggotry.

Did we see the Catholic church condemning the IRA? Fuck me Americans funded them for decades?
Yes, the Vatican did speak out against the IRA. And I doubt that the Popes feared having their kebap shops burnt down. Also, the IRA had an understandable beef - before Iraq, which Muslim country had the West been occupying again for centuries?

Look, every stat I read, it says that 10% of Muslims agree with the terrorists, and 30% condone tactics such as suicide bombing - and those are the ones openly admitting it. So that's AT LEAST 300 million fucking people who will never march against the barbaric acts of their fellow Muslims.

[vicar in a tutu]

Arch, everyone knows that 88.8% of statistics are just made up on the spot?

Fundamentalist groups such as Al Quaida tend to target young muslim males for recruitment, they're a bit more easily lead apparently? So if one of your surveys asked 100 young muslim males and 10 of them happen to agree with the jihad then that doesn't really represent a good cross-section of muslim society does it? I'm sure if you were to ask 100 1st generation British muslims the same question the number that agree would be miniscule.

[Archangel]

Yeah, I wasn't aware that those jihad-preaching imams in Europe were 20 years old.

And I don't know how it is in Britain, but here, if those lovable cuddly first generation Muslim immigrants had sent their kids to proper schools instead of madrasahs, maybe those very kids could now read and write and be employable instead of being despondent, criminal, and easily swayed by fundamentalist rhetoric - while blaming the West for not employing criminal illiterates. Common trait among Muslims, isn't it, pointing the finger exclusively at others.

[supervixen*]

the mumbai attack sucks even more than you know.
It completely fucked up international flights -_-

[Whiffleball]

From The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/03/mumbai-attacks-us-intelligence-warning):

The US warned India (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/india) last month of a pending raid by a Pakistan (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/pakistan)-based militant group it emerged yesterday, a revelation that will add to public anger over apparent security lapses and missed chances to stop the attack on Mumbai.

Although the CIA and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence declined yesterday to comment on intelligence shared with allies round the world, a serving intelligence source confirmed to the Guardian that a warning had been passed to Indian counterparts.

ABC News also quoted a US intelligence officer saying the warning had been specific, of a potential attack "from the sea against hotels and business centres in Mumbai". The terrorists used boats to land on Mumbai's waterfront before attacking multiple targets which killed 183 people and led India to endure a four-day national nightmare.

Indian intelligence sources told NDTV news yesterday they had issued several warnings about a strike on Mumbai. The latest was issued eight days before the attack, warning that the "sea wing" of Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Pakistan-based group accused by India of being behind the attack, was planning to target Mumbai.

India's navy said a "systemic failure" of security and intelligence services led to the attacks in Mumbai, the Press Trust of India reported.

"There is perhaps a (gap) that exists and we will work to sort this out. There is a systemic failure which needs to be taken stock of,", said Admiral Sureesh Mehta.

Fishermen's groups have also claimed their warnings four months ago about militants using sea routes to land RDX explosives in Mumbai, assisted by gangsters, was ignored by the Indian authorities.

Since al-Qaida's attacks of September 11 2001, almost every attack against the west has led to revelations of missed opportunities and intelligence blunders. The Bush administration was accused of missing opportunities to stop the September 2001 attacks on New York and Washington, the Spanish government was accused of blunders over the Madrid train station bombings and the British government is accused of missing chances to stop the July 7 2005 bombing of London's transport network.

But Vincent Cannistraro, a former CIA head of counter-terrorism, said yesterday the information passed on by the US was not specific. "They provided some sketchy intelligence in October that Lashkar-e-Taiba was getting ready to increase anti-Indian activity. Mumbai was mentioned because hotels kept coming up," he said.

Hasan Gafoor, Mumbai's police commissioner, echoed Cannistraro yesterday, saying: "There was no specific intelligence."

Disclosure of the US warning came as Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state, was due to arrive in Delhi to try to reduce tension between India and Pakistan.

The Pakistan government was yesterday deciding how to react to India's demand that it hand over 20 people linked to terrorism as the two countries fight a battle for world opinion after the attacks on Mumbai.

India's foreign minister said yesterday that military action was not being considered which was taken as meaning Delhi would concentrate on diplomatic means to press Pakistan to act against militants whom it claims were linked to the attacks. But Pranab Mukherjee appeared to backtrack later, saying: "I am neither making any comment on military options. What I am saying is every sovereign country has its right to protect its territorial integrity and take appropriate action as and when it feels necessary."

India is expected to outline its case against Pakistan to Rice, based on intercepts and the testimony of the only terrorist captured alive. Amid widespread anger at the political class, Mukherjee publicly confirmed the first concrete demand aimed at Pakistan after the attacks: "We have in our demarche [diplomatic protest], asked for the arrest and handover of those persons who are settled in Pakistan and who are fugitive of Indian law," he said.

In Mumbai both hotels turned into killing grounds have started repairs as they race to reopen. Yesterday the Oberoi Trident hotel said it hoped to start accepting guests in a fortnight. "Guests will come back to the hotel they knew," Ketaki Narain, a spokeswoman for the Oberoi group, said.

The Taj Mahal Palace hotel has appointed a team headed by a structural engineer to help restore it to how it was before the attack.

The hotel's lobby featured paintings by the renowned Indian artist Maqbool Fida Husain which were damaged in the shootout.

Indian media quoted Husain as announcing he would paint again: "I have decided to paint a series of paintings condemning the attack. I am sure some day the Taj will regain its glory and I hope to show these paintings there," he said.

[Le Goat]

CALCUTTA, India – One of the two men arrested for illegally buying mobile phone cards used by gunmen in the Mumbai attacks is a counter-insurgency police officer who may have been on an undercover mission, security officials said Saturday.
The officials in Indian Kashmir demanded that police in Calcutta, where the suspect is being held, arrange for his quick release.
Only two people have been arrested since the end of the bloody siege that killed 171 people. Indian officials have blamed the attacks on Pakistani extremists.
A senior police official in Indian Kashmir said one of them, Mukhtar Ahmed, is part of a semiofficial counter-insurgency network whose members are usually former Kashmiri militants.
Calcutta police have been told Ahmed is "our man and it's now up to them how to facilitate his release," said the officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the information.
The Calcutta police denied that. "This is not true," said Rajeev Kumar, a top Calcutta police official.
Tauseef Rahman, who was also arrested, allegedly bought SIM cards — memory chip 'smart cards' that store information including the cell phone's number, address book and text messages — by providing fake documents, including identification cards of dead people, Kumar said Saturday.
Rahman, of West Bengal state, later sold them to Ahmed, Kumar said. Both men were arrested Friday and charged with fraud and criminal conspiracy.
The SIM cards were later used by the gunmen. Police said they were still investigating how the 10 gunmen obtained the SIM cards, and declined to offer more details.
Most large Indian cities, including Calcutta, where the SIM cards were purchased, have thriving black markets for mobile phone cards and cheap phones.
Ahmed was from the Indian portion of Kashmir, the disputed Himalayan region at the root of much of the tension between India and Pakistan, Kumar said. India and Pakistan have fought two wars over Kashmir.
Indian authorities believe the banned Pakistani-based militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba, which has links to Kashmir, trained the gunmen and plotted the attacks.
Police, meanwhile, also said an Indian man arrested in February in northern India carrying hand-drawn sketches of Mumbai hotels, the train terminal and other sites that were later attacked, was being brought to Mumbai for renewed questioning.
They are hoping the man, Faheem Ansari, can shed more light on the attacks.
Rakesh Maria, a senior Mumbai police officer, said he believed there was a definite connection between Ansari and the Mumbai attacks.
"Ansari was trained by Lashkar and sent to do reconnoissance," Maria said.
The interrogation of the lone surviving gunman from the Mumbai attacks, Mohammed Ajmal Kasab, 21, revealed that the gunmen had detailed pictures of the locations, Maria said.
"They were pretty elaborate photographs," he said, adding that they had also used maps from Google to study the targets.
News of the February arrest has added to a torrent of criticism about missed warnings and botched intelligence.
Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram, India's top law enforcement official, apologized for "lapses" that allowed the gunmen to rampage through Mumbai.
"There have been lapses. I would be less than truthful if I said there had been no lapses," Chidambaram told reporters Friday.
The minister, who assumed his post just days ago following the ouster of the previous minister in the attack's aftermath, spoke as Prime Minister Manmohan Singh pressed the assertion that Pakistani extremists were behind the attack.
Kasab, the surviving gunman, told interrogators he had been sent by Lashkar and identified two of the plot's masterminds as being involved, two Indian government officials familiar with the inquiry said. Police had earlier identified the prisoner as Ajmal Amir Kasab.
Lashkar changed its name to Jamaat-ud-Dawa after it was banned in 2002 amid U.S. pressure, according to the U.S. State Department. The U.S. lists both groups as terrorist organizations.
Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, who heads Jamaat-ud-Dawa — though U.S. authorities in May described him as the overall leader of Lashkar-e-Taiba — denied in an interview that there was a Pakistani hand behind the attacks. He called on Indian authorities to act like "a responsible country." Saeed is considered the founder of both groups.
"I can say with authority that the Lashkar does not believe in killing civilians," Saeed told Outlook magazine in an interview released Friday.
Kasab told police that a senior Lashkar leader, Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi, the group's operations chief, recruited him for the attack, and that the assailants called another senior leader, Yusuf Muzammil, on a satellite phone before the attacks.
In Pakistan, the Interior Ministry chief told reporters he had no immediate information on Lakhvi or Muzammil.
According to the U.S., Lakhvi has directed Lashkar operations in Chechnya, Bosnia and Southeast Asia, training members to carry out suicide bombings and attack populated areas. In 2004, he allegedly sent operatives and funds to attack U.S. forces in Iraq.
Lashkar, outlawed by Pakistan in 2002, has derived some of its funding from organizations based in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, with its leaders making fundraising trips to the Middle East in recent years, U.S. officials say.

[Claydon]

this whole operation stinks of the ISI.

[tockit]

Yeah, wow, AK-47s against hotel lobby security and a bunch of tourists. Some fucking fighters they are.
This is another great example of how gun control doesn't work! India has had draconian anti-gun legislation leading back to colonial times (the mutiny of 1857).

Towards this end the colonial government in present day India, under Lord Lytton as Viceroy (1874 -1880), brought into existence the Indian Arms Act, 1878 (11 of 1878); an act which, exempted Europeans and ensured that no Indian could possess a weapon of any description unless the British masters considered him a "loyal" subject of the British Empire.


Now, imagine if a few of the law abiding tourists staying in the Taj or the Oberoi Hotels that day were carrying concealed weapons (after going through similar requirements in the US for a concealed carry license; ie, FBI background checks, mental health record checks, fingerprinting, and handgun ability/safety courses) when these 7 madmen stormed in with their automatic weapons and started their killing spree in the hotel lobbies?

You can pose the same question for the innocent victims of the Columbine, Va. Tech Massacre's, etc!

I would venture to say that things would probably turned out a little different! There still would have been some tragedys, but not to the level that happened!

You can't police against unwarranted violence!

There are always going to be psychopaths/sociopaths, gang members, terrorists, and just common criminals in this world who WILL have guns regardless if they are legal or not!

A fully automatic AK-47 has always been illegal to own in the US, and I'm quite sure is also illegal for the common citizen to own in India.

Why not let the law abiding citizens carry a defense weapon, if they so desire?

Gun control is not about guns people, it's about control!

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away!

Most criminals will tell you that the thing they fear the most is a person that they intend to rob or harm, who pulls out a weapon.....

[Okie Medicvet]

It's the fault of the moooooooooooooooooosliiiiiiiiiiiiims! They are all out to bomb you and kill you and rape your dead asshole!!! oh my fucking god. People actually seriously think this way? I think sometimes that as a species what we pretty much fucking end up doing to each other is what we deserve.

[Okie Medicvet]

Now India is thinking that they are possible targets for a 911 style attack at their airports:

[quote]
Indian airports on alert for '9/11 terrorist attack'



Rhys Blakely in Mumbai

India’s main airports were on a state of high alert last night amid fears that 14 terrorists given the same training as the Mumbai gunmen are preparing to mount a 9/11-type attack using hijacked passenger aircraft.
The Defence Minister, A. K. Antony, ordered the nation’s armed forces to be on guard against “terror strikes from the air” eight days after India suffered its worst terrorist attack in 15 years, when at least ten gunmen struck targets including a hospital, two luxury hotels and a backpacker bar in south Mumbai, killing 171 people.
The India Bureau for Civil Aviation is thought to have been warned of plans to capture one or more aircraft at Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore or Madras airports, the main Indian transport hubs. Officials said that credible intelligence indicated a plan to attack a significant population centre using an airliner in an assault that would resemble those made on New York and Washington in 2001.
The warning recalled the Indian Airlines flight that was hijacked by Pakistani nationals on Christmas Eve 1999 as it flew from Kathmandu to Delhi. It landed in Afghanistan, where the hostages were released in exchange for three Islamist extremists.

Last night armed police were manning cordons at each airport and passengers were told to arrive three hours before their flights to go through bolstered security procedures. The Air Force said that fighter aircraft were being deployed and that plans to move anti-aircraft missiles to “high-value areas” were being studied.
The Indian air infrastructure has failed to keep pace with the country’s booming aviation industry, in which passenger numbers rose by 30 per cent last year. Experts fear that usual security arrangements could be breached easily by trained militants.
Azam Amir Kasab, the sole Mumbai gunman to be caught alive, has told interrogators that he was one of 24 men being trained in militant camps in Pakistan. So far, only ten — Kasab and nine others who were killed in Mumbai — have been accounted for.
“The whereabouts of the 14 missing men is of utmost concern,” a police source said. Interrogators hoped to extract more information from Kasab by subjecting him to narcoanalysis.
The faith of Mumbai’s residents in their security forces, already sorely tested, was dealt another severe blow this week when a bag containing 8kg (18lb) of explosives was found in Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus (CST), the main Mumbai railway station.
Kasab and an accomplice killed 56 people at CST on Wednesday last week. It is thought that the explosives, which were found with the bags of passengers who fled the station that night, had lain there undiscovered since the attacks.
Yesterday it emerged that a private company that supplies explosives sniffer dogs to one of the rail operators in Mumbai had withdrawn its services because a bill of about £2,000 had not been paid. A Western Railway official refused to comment. There was also a report that a sighting of the terrorists off the coast of Gujarat as they made their way by sea to Mumbai by Indian security forces was not acted on.
A message sent to an Indian news agency threatened an attack tomorrow. It alleged to be from the Deccan Mujahidin, a previously unknown group that claimed to be behind the attacks on Mumbai, but which most experts suspect is a front for more established terrorist factions.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article5289529.ece

[tockit]

It's the fault of the moooooooooooooooooosliiiiiiiiiiiiims! They are all out to bomb you and kill you and rape your dead asshole!!! oh my fucking god. People actually seriously think this way?
I didn't even mention the word Muslim in my post! How are you getting this?

BTW - If it hasn't dawned on you yet, we're all going to die. One way or the other, maybe tomorrow, maybe in 50 years, but it will happen!

Although, as far as the Muslims go, the guys that carried out the 911 attacks, USS Cole bombing, etc, etc, etc, were all Muslim extremists!

On the other hand, Buddists, Hindu's, Christians, Jews, Zoroastrianists, etc, generally don't go around blowing themselves and others up on a regular basis, and don't teach jihad in their doctrine! :rolleyes:

If Islam really is a religion of peace and love, as some of it's members claim, why don't they come out and denounce this stuf?????

[Archangel]

Did this fuckhead just blame this on gun control?


Wow. I know retarded people with an agenda could be funny, but this just takes the cake. Next, he's gonna tell us that if everybody on the East Coast had had access to surface-to-air missile batteries, 9/11 never would have happened.

Oh, and as for other religions not blowing shit up... Yeah, go on believing that.

tockit may be the best argument for gun control I've come across in my life. Thank God I don't have to live in a country where illiterate, ignorant, hateful people with room temperature IQs are allowed to own deadly weapons.

[Morfin]

Gee, tockit. I bet a lot would have been accomplished with a handgun against AK-47s, except the handgunner's death.

Yep, all the world would be safe, but for some wacky governments not allowing their citizens to carry sidearms: no terrorists would dare to storm hotels with automatic rifles, suicide bombers would be scared to kill themselves because they might get shot, and 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

Why not let the law abiding citizens carry a defense weapon, if they so desire?Why? Because if I'm in the grocery store and someone decides to rob the place -- even with a gun -- the odds of him shooting anyone are extremely slim. However, with a couple of John Q. Publics believing they can "take 'em out" and save all the wimmin and children, then bullets start flying -- both from the Rambo-wannabees and then from the robber in retaliation and panic.


Gun control is not about guns people, it's about control!Right. There's no valid reason behind gun control, the governments just do it to show us citizen "Who's in charge."

Your posts show why we need gun control laws.

[Archangel]

Why the fuck even bother? It's obvious that the only thing in his head are NRA slogans... I'm waiting for him to blame the dinosaurs' extinction on those evil T-Reges not letting the Triceratops carry guns. Oh, and if everybody had some artillery, we could just shoot the carbon dioxide out of the sky, thus ending global warming!

Seriously, if democracy means that tools like tockit are actually granted a voice which counts the same as mine, give me my Kaiser back.

[Le Goat]

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – Security forces overran a militant camp on the outskirts of Pakistani Kashmir's main city and seized an alleged mastermind of the attacks that shook India's financial capital last month, two officials said Monday.
The raid was Pakistan's first known response to U.S. and Indian demands for the arrest of the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks, which have sharply raised tensions between South Asia's two nuclear-armed powers.
Backed by a helicopter, the troops grabbed Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi among at least 12 people taken Sunday in the raid on the riverbank camp run by the banned group Laskhar-e-Taiba in Pakistani Kashmir, the officials said. There was a brief clash in the camp near Muzaffarabad before the militants were subdued, the officials said.
The officials — one from the intelligence agencies and one from a government agency — spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.
Indian officials say the sole Mumbai attacker captured alive has told them that Lakhvi recruited him for the mission and that Lakhvi and another militant, Yusuf Muzammil, planned the operation. The three-day siege of India's commercial capital left 171 people dead.
Analysts say Lashkar-e-Taiba was created with the help of Pakistan's intelligence agencies in the 1980s to act as a proxy fighting force in Indian Kashmir.
The United States says the group has links to al-Qaida. In May, the U.S. Department of the Treasury alleged that Lakhvi directed Laskhar-e-Taiba operations in Chechnya, Bosnia and Southeast Asia. In 2004, he allegedly sent operatives and funds to attack U.S. forces in Iraq, it said.
It was not immediately clear what Pakistan intended to do with Lakhvi.
Pakistan and India do not have an extradition treaty. Last week, President Asif Ali Zardari indicated anyone arrested in Pakistan in connection with the attacks would be tried in Pakistan.
Pakistan banned Lashkar-e-Taiba in 2002, but there have been few if any convictions of its members since then. Many suspect elements within the intelligence agencies keep some links with Lashkar-e-Taiba and other militants in the country, either to use against India or in neighboring Afghanistan.
An Islamist charity called Jemaat-ud-Dawa sprang up after the ban which U.S. officials say is a front for the group. It denies the accusation and has condemned the Mumbai attacks.
Pakistan and India have fought three wars over the last 60 years, two over Kashmir. In 2001, an attack by suspected Lashkar-e-Taiba militants on the Parliament building in New Delhi brought the countries close to conflict.
The government convened a rare Cabinet-level meeting of the country's defense and intelligence chiefs, but made no official comment on the raid or Lakhvi's arrest.
That is not uncommon in Pakistan, especially when the subject is sensitive.
The military released a brief statement late Monday saying intelligence-led operations against banned militant groups were under way and that arrests had been made. The statement gave no more details and it was not clear if the operations included Sunday's raid.
The government also said it was investigating allegations "concerning the involvement of any individual or entity in Pakistan" in the Mumbai attacks.
It said it needed more evidence from India to continue the probe and proposed a "high-level delegation from Pakistan may visit New Delhi as soon as possible."
The New York Times, citing unidentified American intelligence and counterterrorism officials, reported in a story published Monday that Lashkar-e-Taiba has gained strength in recent years with the help of Pakistan's spy service, the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence.
Officials cited by the Times said the ISI has shared intelligence with and provided protection for the outlawed group, though there is no evidence to link the spy service to the Mumbai attacks.
Islamabad's young civilian government has denied any of its state agencies were involved in the Mumbai attacks, but said it was possible that the militants were Pakistanis. It has pledged to cooperate with India, noting it too is a victim of terrorism.
Pakistan has experienced a surge in militant violence since it sided with the United States after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. As part of the alliance, it allows NATO and America to truck supplies to their forces in Afghanistan through the country.
Early Monday, militants in the northwestern city of Peshawar attacked a terminal for the supply trucks, torching scores of military vehicles waiting shipment, a witness and an Associated Press reporter said.
The attack was the second in as many days on the supply line in the city, showing its vulnerability to militants that control large swaths Pakistan's lawless regions close to Afghanistan.
Terminal laborer Altaf Hussain says several militants stormed the Bilal terminal, firing grenades. They then set fire to up to 50 military vehicles awaiting shipment, he said.
It and other terminals in the city employ lightly armed security guards, aimed more at preventing theft than organized militant assaults.
Up to 75 percent of the fuel, food and other logistical goods for Western forces battling Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan currently pass through Pakistan.
NATO officials say the attacks on the supply line do not affect their operations in Afghanistan, but acknowledge they are looking for other supply routes to the country

[TylerDurden]

tockit may be the best argument for birth control I've come across in my life

fixed.

[lusonico]

Why the fuck even bother? It's obvious that the only thing in his head are NRA slogans... I'm waiting for him to blame the dinosaurs' extinction on those evil T-Reges not letting the Triceratops carry guns. Oh, and if everybody had some artillery, we could just shoot the carbon dioxide out of the sky, thus ending global warming!

Seriously, if democracy means that tools like tockit are actually granted a voice which counts the same as mine, give me my Kaiser back.

You may have made a point for him. If you think it's possible to distinguish beteween citizens and give some less power to effect on decisions about the nation, based on their demeanor/inteligence, then it's not unfeasible to grant weapon carrying licenses on the same basis.

It's all about wether the authorities (under a democracy or not) are actually effective in maintaining public safety or if the people are left to essentially defend themselves daily. As we stand now, things are actually made easy for robbers and small theft, because the cops have more to do than care if you got mugged or if someone snatched your cell phone and sprinted away. If leaves you feeling quite pissed off at the system that if you hit a guy in the face who was trying to force the door of you car or entering your house, that you can be charged with assault, because wether things work or not, the system always says you got to rely on it and can't do jack shit with your own hands.

[Archangel]

Yeah, but have you ever been to small town America?

[Limp]

Yeah, but have you ever been to small town America?
The fuck do you know bout small town america?

Tell me fucker... tell me all about it.

[Archangel]

The fuck do you know bout small town america?


Having been all over Illinois and Wisconsin, more than you might think.


And most of it scares me (I still remember that F150 with the "IM NRA" plate...).

[Phil Theehor]

Having been all over Illinois and Wisconsin, more than you might think.


And most of it scares me (I still remember that F150 with the "IM NRA" plate...).

Interested in this, Arch. What about small town Americans is so frightening?

[vicar in a tutu]

Now, imagine if a few of the law abiding tourists staying in the Taj or the Oberoi Hotels that day were carrying concealed weapons (after going through similar requirements in the US for a concealed carry license; ie, FBI background checks, mental health record checks, fingerprinting, and handgun ability/safety courses) when these 7 madmen stormed in with their automatic weapons and started their killing spree in the hotel lobbies?



Can you hear that tapping noise Tockit? That's the sound of the little logic Leprechaun knocking on your brain asking to be let in. Go on Tockit, stop thinking about greasing the barrell of your gun with Charlton Hestons cold dead ball sweat and let the little logic fella in.

[redsox39]

At least none of this shit has happened in the US since 9/11.

I will say one thing, they went in with guns and not bombs. They're actually fighting.

Normally these pussy faggots surrender, surrender, surrender.

they did have bombs too...

[redsox39]

That's right sibling it is. I hate how Muslim fundamentalist terrorists just get labelled as "Muslims" what about the vast majority of ordinary Muslims who are peace-loving and abhor violence? We never used to refer to the IRA as "Catholics" did we?

Uh, yeah, we did...

pretty much the same type of scum with fewer numbers...

That's like saying we don't call the Taliban Muslims, do we?

Well, not when we are calling them Taliban. But I think we all know that when they say Taliban or Al queda, they mean Muslim. And when they say IRA, they mean Irish Catholic.

[redsox39]

The Muslim council of Britain have openly opposed and spoken out against such actions. Stop generalising!

Did we see the Catholic church condemning the IRA? Fuck me Americans funded them for decades?

Only in Boston...

[redsox39]

Oh yah and another thing to add to this tangent, the IRA could be negotiated with, muslims/radical muslims/whatever the fuck you want to call them have proven themselves to be completely devoid of any concept of civility. Shall we go through the lists of embassies they have destroyed as well as diplomatic staff they have kidnapped and held hostage.

And to that note...the IRA is pretty much calmed down now...any chance of the Muslims doing that in your lifetime?

[Yelram]

Having been all over Illinois and Wisconsin, more than you might think.


And most of it scares me (I still remember that F150 with the "IM NRA" plate...). I was just pondering the other day about the complete and total wussiness of Europeans as I was zipping down I-80, and saw 2 guys walking down the highway with rifles. I thought man if I was some spineless nanny bred geek like Arch, I might be afraid of the concept of my fellow citizens carrying fire arms down the road, then I realized that we fight to retain our rights, while Europeans do everything they can to give theirs away. I see a citizen with a gun as a brother in arms, you see them as a threat to your personal security. You want your countrymen controlled by an ineffective government, I want them liberated so that we may all secure an environment of prosperity through STRENGTH not weakness. Through localized communities, not a tyrannical federal government that rules from 100s of miles away. You want the Wiemar republic, we want the spirit of 1776. You believe every human being is a liability to the public safety, where we see that human beings ARE THE PUBLIC. The governments job is to protect us from enemies foreign and domestic, i'm pretty sure that doesnt include OURSELVES. You see liberty as a scary thing, because you see every human as an error waiting to happen instead of believing in the dominance of free individuals vs. state sponsored slavery.

Anyway, small town Germany seems alot more scary, with people being concealed in basements for decades, and marrying their siblings.

[redsox39]

Why? Because if I'm in the grocery store and someone decides to rob the place -- even with a gun -- the odds of him shooting anyone are extremely slim. However, with a couple of John Q. Publics believing they can "take 'em out" and save all the wimmin and children, then bullets start flying -- both from the Rambo-wannabees and then from the robber in retaliation and panic.




Watch Movies much? Can you find anything to back that up except for your far and vast logic? Why don't you check out Florida and Texas for this type of thing...Ten of Millions of people...and your horror story never came true...after a few years even...weird...

You are all about Liberty and Justice...until a real issue of Liberty comes up it seems.

[redsox39]

Yeah, but have you ever been to small town America?


Living in Nebraska my whole life, I have a pretty good idea...

[Yelram]

Living in Nebraska my whole life, I have a pretty good idea...

But das people have trucks and they own guns!!! Dat isch so scary!!

Again, real fear isnt your neighbor having a gun, its the government preventing you from basic self defense. THAT is something to be scared about.

[redsox39]

yeah, I would venture to say that there are 20,000 guns in my current city of 30,000 people. Never heard a shot go off in the neighborhoods, hasn't been a murder in 12 years...and that was a man who set his wife on fire...

I guess there has been a few suicides though...but oh well, guns, ropes, cars, you can do anyway you want.

Granted, Papillion is a pretty Afluent city, but still, you would think with so many guns, and being right next to Omaha, we would have the OK Corral going on everyday using Morfin and Arch's logic.

[redsox39]

but let's get back on Topic...here are some more Peaceful conflicts....

Country and Main religious groups involved:
1. Afghanistan Extreme radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslim Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. 2. Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, Muslims 3. Cote d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christians 4. Cyprus Christians & Muslims 5. East Timor Christians & Muslims 6. Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims 7. Kashmir Hindus and Muslims 8. Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians, Muslims 9. Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway. 10. Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims 11. Middle East Jews, Muslims, &Christians 12. Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims 13. Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims 14. Philippines Christians & Muslims 15. Russia, Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged. 16. Serbia, province of Vojvodina Serbian Orthodox & Roman Catholics 17. Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils

We can point to religion for sure for this...but there also seems to be a constant.

[Archangel]

I was just pondering the other day about the complete and total wussiness of Europeans"Wuss" has been the insult every barbarian has used to describe civilised people for millennia. Also, don't you ever dare caling me out on generalising anything again, since you just threw Italians in the same basket as Irishmen and Dutch.

as I was zipping down I-80, and saw 2 guys walking down the highway with rifles. I thought man if I was some spineless nanny bred geek like Arch, This nanny bred geek used to be a PFC in his country's armed forces, and has been trained on everything from vehicle mounted machine guns to light anti tank RPGs, so I suggest you shut the fuck up.I might be afraid of the concept of my fellow citizens carrying fire arms down the road, then I realized that we fight to retain our rights, while Europeans do everything they can to give theirs away. Yeah, I feel so unfree, not having to watch out for a mugger with a gun every time I walk around at night.
I see a citizen with a gun as a brother in arms, So you feel a spiritual connection to gangbangers killing people over drug durfs. I honestly doubt that they think of you as much of a "brother", though.you see them as a threat to your personal security.
Some hick yahoo looking for them there terr'sts behind every hedge, you're damned right I see them as a threat.
You want your countrymen controlled by an ineffective government, I want them liberated so that we may all secure an environment of prosperity through STRENGTH not weakness.
No, I want dumb people to shut up, and smart people to govern. The greatest tyranny is that of ignorance.
Through localized communities, not a tyrannical federal government that rules from 100s of miles away. Dude, your way of life went out the window with C Julius fucking Caesar.You want the Wiemar republic, *Weimar. we want the spirit of 1776. Which, if I'm not mistaken, was 232 years ago. So you want to own slaves and refuse women the right to vote, too? Yelram's new slogan, "celebrate obsolescence!"You believe every human being is a liability to the public safety, Sorry, mate, I don't speak Crazy. Hpwever, if you're saying, as I seem to glean, that I think that people are shit, then yeah, thanks for proving why democracy can never really work.where we see that human beings ARE THE PUBLIC. The governments job is to protect us from enemies foreign and domestic, i'm pretty sure that doesnt include OURSELVES.You really hate this whole "civilisation" thing, don't you. You see liberty as a scary thing, because you see every human as an error waiting to happen instead of believing in the dominance of free individuals vs. state sponsored slavery.Wow, you really are crazy, aren't you. But thanks, man, I needed a good laugh.

Anyway, small town Germany seems alot more scary, with people being concealed in basements for decades, and marrying their siblings.

Um, the whole "isolated incident v systemically inherent symptom" aside, your American-ness is showing. Austria, where that incident you allude to happened, is a different country from Germany. No, not the one with the kangaroos, the one where Hitler came from and you forgot to de-nazify.

And considering your own - probably circular - family tree and the state of West Virginia, an American calling any European an inbred is just precious.

Why the fuck am I talking to this ignorant, uncultured hick barbarian again? Seriously, get the fuck out of your cabin once in a while, and learn about the shit that you judge. Simply put, you know NOTHING. You have weird ideas rattling inside that head, untempered and unchecked by actual observation or experience in the outside world. It's like me trying to tell a professor of musicology stuff about Bach.

We call people with limited horizons "provincial"; but even that insinuates that there is a larger settlement nearby. You think that the ideal state of man is hunting his own food and shitting in holes, cool; we got over that, oh, in 600BC. You can try to wrap up your insecurities, your envy for us fancy folks' comforts and sophistication (toilet paper ftw) in all manner of layers of contempt and dumbarsery, but at the end of the day, me > you. It's really that simple. You are here to entertain me with your retardedness while you fume at the haughty attitude of your betters.


Yelram, I don't know whether you noticed this, but with your love for the idea of every illiterate armed to his teeth and your utter disdain for any of the perks of civilisation, do you know whom you remind me of?

The Taliban. You'd fit right in.

Lulz.

[tockit]

Did this fuckhead just blame this on gun control? Thank God I don't have to live in a country where illiterate, ignorant, hateful people with room temperature IQs are allowed to own deadly weapons.
Shucks, I guess I hit a nerve, huh Arch? :D

I figured you would be against gun control since it was your country that rounded them all up after the Treaty of Versailles, shortly before Hitler went on his mad massacre against the Jews?

I guess some people never learn???

Once a sheep, always a sheep! :eek:

Since we kicked Germany's asses back up Omaha Beach and all the way back to Berlin in WW2, maybe you should take some pointers from these small town Americans with their NRA bumper stickers!
This nanny bred geek used to be a PFC in his country's armed forces, and has been trained on everything from vehicle mounted machine guns to light anti tank RPGs, so I suggest you shut the fuck up.
You weren't one of the German military people that I was reading about last week that are "too fat to fight are you?" :rolleyes:

Just curious.......

[Phil Theehor]

Shucks, I guess I hit a nerve, huh Arch? :D

I figured you would be against gun control since it was your country that rounded them all up after the Treaty of Versailles, shortly before Hitler went on his mad massacre against the Jews?

I guess some people never learn???

Once a sheep, always a sheep! :eek:


Since we kicked Germany's asses back up Omaha Beach and all the way back to Berlin in WW2, maybe you should take some pointers from these small town Americans with their NRA bumper stickers!

You weren't one of the German military people that I was reading about last week that are "too fat to fight are you?" :rolleyes:

Just curious.......


Tockit, Chuck Heston was my president, too. So, I will ask you to chill. Wild rants hurt the cause. Emoticons are for Smuckers.

[Phil Theehor]

And Arch, you are painting with an awfully broad brush. Referring to an extreme rant as "showing one's American-ness" is pretty shitty.

[tockit]

Tockit, Chuck Heston was my president, too. So, I will ask you to chill. Wild rants hurt the cause. Emoticons are for Smuckers.
You know what they say about opinions....

[Morfin]

Watch Movies much? Can you find anything to back that up except for your far and vast logic? Why don't you check out Florida and Texas for this type of thing...Ten of Millions of people...and your horror story never came true...after a few years even...weird...

You are all about Liberty and Justice...until a real issue of Liberty comes up it seems.

I am all about liberty -- the liberty to be safe from idiots with guns. I can see your argument about small town Nebraska or America and I do believe that where people respect guns, then they can be used maturely. But you need to see the big city and the wild proliferation of guns in the inner city. And I don't need to go to the movies, or far and vast logic, I only need to look in the newspaper. We do see gunfights. We see the damage and the murders.

I grew up around guns -- we had numerous guns in the house, not locked up. We were taught from an early age to respect guns and their dangers, and how to handle them safely. But now that I live in a large, urban area, I see all the people killed from gun fights, using them in anger, etc. And as a result, I've changed my view.

I may be a libertarian; this is one area where I support governmental control. Because of the concern about innocent people's safety, I see this as an area where individual rights should be subverted.

Going back to how we got off on this tangent, to believe that this attack would have been repelled by some people with guns is ridiculous.

[Archangel]

Um, tockit, I know that you get your history from comic books, but it was the Soviet Union which kicked our "arses all the way to Berlin".

You guys came in late, did the mopping up, and hogged the glory. Kicked our arses? You couldn't even beat the fucking Vietnamese.

[Archangel]

And Arch, you are painting with an awfully broad brush. Referring to an extreme rant as "showing one's American-ness" is pretty shitty.

I'm pretty sure that Yelram just put about 50 different peoples and, oh, a dozen ethnicities in the "all Europeans are spineless pussies" basket, yet it's MY characterisation of Americans as boorish ignorant hick loudmouths, perfectly represented by not one, but TWO stereotypical jackasses in this very thread, which you chose to criticise?

Dude, seriously.

[Mustard]

http://i36.tinypic.com/yi145.jpg

Mother of God.

I can't even conceive the massive amount of fail that I have so thankfully averted my eyes from.

God bless you ignore function.

[Phil Theehor]

I'm pretty sure that Yelram just put about 50 different peoples and, oh, a dozen ethnicities in the "all Europeans are spineless pussies" basket, yet it's MY characterisation of Americans as boorish ignorant hick loudmouths, perfectly represented by not one, but TWO stereotypical jackasses in this very thread, which you chose to criticise?

Dude, seriously.

Different expectations from different members.

And I would have thought that the "he's doing it, too" defense went out in grade school.

[Archangel]

While hypocrisy is usually learned in university.

[Yelram]

This nanny bred geek used to be a PFC in his country's armed forces, and has been trained on everything from vehicle mounted machine guns to light anti tank RPGs, so I suggest you shut the fuck up.Yeah, I feel so unfree, not having to watch out for a mugger with a gun every time I walk around at night.
So you feel a spiritual connection to gangbangers killing people over drug durfs. I honestly doubt that they think of you as much of a "brother", though.
Some hick yahoo looking for them there terr'sts behind every hedge, you're damned right I see them as a threat.

That right there proves that as intelligent as you pretend to be, you cant reason worth a shit. Banning guns does not prevent people from getting illegal guns you fucking dipshit. People do not get mugged by legally registered guns, gangbangers do not use registered guns.. So you are just totally ignorant to the fact that gun ownership prevents crime, it does not encourage it. If you look at the numbers of gun ownership, and the rate of gun crime, they are not congruent whatsoever. In most places in the country, a higher rate of gun ownership translates into less crime. Right to Carry states have, on average, 20-25% lower rates of violent crime.


No, I want dumb people to shut up, and smart people to govern. The greatest tyranny is that of ignorance.
Dude, your way of life went out the window with C Julius fucking Caesar.*Weimar.( I spelled it right the first time, and the spellcheck told me I was wrong) Which, if I'm not mistaken, was 232 years ago. So you want to own slaves and refuse women the right to vote, too? Yelram's new slogan, "celebrate obsolescence!"Sorry, mate, I don't speak Crazy. Hpwever, if you're saying, as I seem to glean, that I think that people are shit, then yeah, thanks for proving why democracy can never really work.You really hate this whole "civilisation" thing, don't you.Wow, you really are crazy, aren't you. But thanks, man, I needed a good laugh.
Exactly, you just said a mouthful, you think smart people should rule, and the "stupid" people, in otherwords, those who dont agree with you, shouldnt be given a say because they just arent as smart as your pompous spoiled Euro-elite ass. Civilization is not maintained by governmental control, but rather from a social contract between the people, and the government. I know your philosophy balks at the idea of a government by the people, and for the people. You want a government by the social elite, for the social elite, built on the back of those who actually work.

Um, the whole "isolated incident v systemically inherent symptom" aside, your American-ness is showing. Austria, where that incident you allude to happened, is a different country from Germany. No, not the one with the kangaroos, the one where Hitler came from and you forgot to de-nazify.

And considering your own - probably circular - family tree and the state of West Virginia, an American calling any European an inbred is just precious.
Europeans were the original inbreeders. You were ruled by inbreeders for centuries. Hell your own government began a policy of inbreeding 65 years ago, because of their sureness of the superiority of the "Aryan" race.

Why the fuck am I talking to this ignorant, uncultured hick barbarian again? Seriously, get the fuck out of your cabin once in a while, and learn about the shit that you judge. Simply put, you know NOTHING. You have weird ideas rattling inside that head, untempered and unchecked by actual observation or experience in the outside world. It's like me trying to tell a professor of musicology stuff about Bach.
If your political philosophy is what they teach in Germany, I fear for the safety of the free world. See thats just it Arch, you have no experience in the real world, you sit and write pages about reality, and criticize others experience, when you have nothing to base it on. I run a business, I work everyday for my own subsistence, I deal with people one on one everyday, and they pay me for my services. It doesnt get more real than that.


We call people with limited horizons "provincial"; but even that insinuates that there is a larger settlement nearby. You think that the ideal state of man is hunting his own food and shitting in holes, cool; we got over that, oh, in 600BC. You can try to wrap up your insecurities, your envy for us fancy folks' comforts and sophistication (toilet paper ftw) in all manner of layers of contempt and dumbarsery, but at the end of the day, me > you. It's really that simple. You are here to entertain me with your retardedness while you fume at the haughty attitude of your betters.

You are a total dumbass. I never said any of that you shithead. I was talking about gun ownership, and somehow you are twisting that into some sort of living philosophy. I am talking about private gun ownership to preserve civilization from a tyrannical government, and from criminal elements,and you somehow are calling that uncivilized. Apparently your idea of civilization is the government controlling everyone who you are "better than", and coming to wipe your ass when you take a fucking dump. For as much philosophical reading as you have done, its quite pathetic to see where you have landed. As great as you think you are, without your rich daddy, you would be just a regular, extremely bulbous headed, human being


Yelram, I don't know whether you noticed this, but with your love for the idea of every illiterate armed to his teeth and your utter disdain for any of the perks of civilisation, do you know whom you remind me of?

The Taliban. You'd fit right in.

Lulz. Perks of civilization? What the fuck are you even talking about. You are the exact reason that people in this country hate Europeans. You think you are smarter than everyone, and you dont even bring any logic, or facts into a disagreement, you just call them "uncivilized", or a "philistine" or any of the other detrimental terms you refer to those who are "beneath" you as. I realize I linked together many groups of people who disagree when I referred to Europeans, but that is always the case. You want to be referred to as a union of nations, then my criticism is going to be directed in that way. I'm sorry I didnt specify that the Italians think blah, and French people think blah, I rationalized the overarching philosophy held in most of Europe. Just like you VERY VERY often make broad generalizations about places you've never been.

[Archangel]

You are right in saying that banning guns in America wouldn't do shit. But that's because you violent mother fuckers have bought hundreds of millions of those damned things already. It would be like banning booze in a filled up liquor store.

But again, it is your perspective which is limited. Because - get this - there are countries where there are hardly any guns at all. And when you ban booze in a place where there are two bottles of beer, even the worst criminals are hard pressed to get their hands on one. Japan. Singapore. South Korea. Less gun deaths in those countries put together in a year than in Texas in a week, probably: 30 per year in Japan (about half the US's population), more than 30,000 a year in the US. That number includes suicides, but not the tens of thousands more who are hurt, maimed, disfigured.


Germany is a different beast. Gun laws are rather more lax here than in other countries: There are around 9 million legally owned guns here, and maybe the same number owned illegally. Still, that's around one in four Germans having a gun, statistically, whereas you're trying your damnedest to get to par. Oh, us pussies have rifle association parades, rifle clubs, sport shooters, hunters... You walk around the countryside here, you're pretty likely to encounter men with guns. But those men are also likely to be able to find India on a map.

But even then, the figures don't match. With around 1.4 gun deaths per 100,000, adjusting for percentage gun ownership percentage, we'd be at, what, 5.6? You guys are at 11.

So it's not about gun ownership, freedom, self determination or any of those lofty ideals.

It's about the fact that you guys like shooting people, plain and simple.

[Morfin]

But those men are also likely to be able to find India on a map.

We don't need no stinking maps. We just follow any gun-toting Pakistanis.

[Yelram]

You are right in saying that banning guns in America wouldn't do shit. But that's because you violent mother fuckers have bought hundreds of millions of those damned things already. It would be like banning booze in a filled up liquor store.

But again, it is your perspective which is limited. Because - get this - there are countries where there are hardly any guns at all. And when you ban booze in a place where there are two bottles of beer, even the worst criminals are hard pressed to get their hands on one. Japan. Singapore. South Korea. Less gun deaths in those countries put together in a year than in Texas in a week, probably: 30 per year in Japan (about half the US's population), more than 30,000 a year in the US. That number includes suicides, but not the tens of thousands more who are hurt, maimed, disfigured.

So 30,000 gun deaths a year, again suicides which make up more than half, and that also includes accidents, which by that logic, cars should be illegal, and so should alcohol which kills 75000 a year. So how many years of our "wild west" show do we need to compare to the citizens of Germany killed during Hitlers reign. We'll just start with 6 million jews. So thats 200 years of gun ownership in a country with roughly 3.5 times the population of Germany. Oh please government, come and save us from these bad guns!!!!(/sarcasm)The argument against gun ownership is one based purely in emotion. "Guns are bad", "Guns hurt people", "People shouldnt have that much power". When I could just as easily kill someone with CO or a sharpened pencil. I'm sure the 15,000 suicides a year would have rather killed themselves in a much easier way, like a dull butterknife to the wrist or something.


Germany is a different beast. Gun laws are rather more lax here than in other countries: There are around 9 million legally owned guns here, and maybe the same number owned illegally. Still, that's around one in four Germans having a gun, statistically, whereas you're trying your damnedest to get to par. Oh, us pussies have rifle association parades, rifle clubs, sport shooters, hunters... You walk around the countryside here, you're pretty likely to encounter men with guns. But those men are also likely to be able to find India on a map.

But even then, the figures don't match. With around 1.4 gun deaths per 100,000, adjusting for percentage gun ownership percentage, we'd be at, what, 5.6? You guys are at 11.

So it's not about gun ownership, freedom, self determination or any of those lofty ideals.

It's about the fact that you guys like shooting people, plain and simple.

Gun deaths dont really prove that, people get shot, thats all it proves. And obviously having more guns and more bullets is going to lead to more overall accidental deaths. The question is, is it worth giving up our right to protect ourselves in order to lower this number? Your country, at best, has 3/4 of the population as sitting targets if something was to happen. 1/4 of our population OWN a gun, and the other 75% could just as easily find one. If you start to look at the gun crime statistics, it becomes pretty revealing. The last person with a carry permit that committed a gun crime was in 1997. The places with the worst levels of gun crime are the places with the strictest gun laws. (Wash D.C.). Here is the analysis of a study that shows how even though countries with less restrictions on gun ownership often have higher rates of "gun deaths" it is important not to confuse that with the murder rate. Obviously countries that have less guns have less gun related deaths, that is not the question, its if the MURDER rate is affected by gun ownership.

http://thevanishingpoint.wordpress.com/2008/10/27/gun-ownership-and-murder-rates-no-apparent-association/

[Archangel]

If some imaginary right to act like you could protect yourself against something that will never happen is worth 30,000 deaths a year to you, that's your business. And anybody who thinks that a knife is the same as a gun is being wilfully stupid, as is the notion that cars and guns are the same. One has a primary purpose which is not killing people. The other does not.

But seriously, don't make it out to be about some high falutin ideals. Again, you get off on the idea of bagging yourself a n***er breaking into your home. You're a country of either violent mother fuckers, or people scared to death of them. Admit it, and I'll be cool with it.

I mean, I'm gonna apply for a firearms licence the day I get my Master's; but I don't act like buying a rifle ennobles my spirit. An arsehole with a gun is an arsehole with a gun, not a symbol of liberty.

[Claydon]

Wow, what the fuck happened in here.


Hey arch, go fuck yourself. I own firearms, and take great pleasure in taking them apart, cleaning them, oiling them, so that their actions may work well.....(blowing into the action)....perfect. I call this one....Charise.

Has anyone seen my friend Joker?

[Yelram]

If some imaginary right to act like you could protect yourself against something that will never happen is worth 30,000 deaths a year to you, that's your business. And anybody who thinks that a knife is the same as a gun is being wilfully stupid, as is the notion that cars and guns are the same. One has a primary purpose which is not killing people. The other does not.

But seriously, don't make it out to be about some high falutin ideals. Again, you get off on the idea of bagging yourself a n***er breaking into your home. You're a country of either violent mother fuckers, or people scared to death of them. Admit it, and I'll be cool with it.

I mean, I'm gonna apply for a firearms licence the day I get my Master's; but I don't act like buying a rifle ennobles my spirit. An arsehole with a gun is an arsehole with a gun, not a symbol of liberty.
Its not the arsehole with the gun that is the symbol of liberty, it's the law abiding citizen that is able to STOP the arsehole with the gun. I find it funny that with all this history you claim for your country, the thing you guys are best at is REPEATING IT.

[Archangel]

What the fuck are you talking about again, peasant?

[Claydon]

What the fuck are you talking about again, peasant?

we prefer to be called plebs

[Archangel]

Hey arch, go fuck yourself. I own firearms, and take great pleasure in taking them apart, cleaning them, oiling them, so that their actions may work well.....(blowing into the action)....perfect. I call this one....Charise.

Has anyone seen my friend Joker?

And that is very legitimate. I like guns, always have, am more or less proficient with rifles (I suck with handguns), and as I said, can't wait to get me an H&K .223 in a few years. You're breaking down open doors here.

What pisses me off is guys like Yelram trying to make the act of purchasing a firearm to be some statement for all that's good in the world, and people who abhor them to be the enemies of liberty. Say "I like guns because they're fun", great; "because I admire them as machines, same as a Swiss watch", cool; "because I live in a dodgy neighbourhood", no problem.

But if you tell me that every gun owner in America owns guns primarily to represent the fundamental rightness of the American way of life, I'll laugh in your fucking face. People don't buy Porsches to make statements against government imposed speed limits and fuel prices, they buy them because they're fun and you can pull chicks in them.

[Archangel]

And my G3A3 was called Susie, by the way. Shots went a little low and to the right, but once you compensated, she was a piece of art.

[Claydon]

i actually have a korean made pistol, a .40 cal by daewoo. that fucking thing is solid, made for the korean military.

ithaca 12 gauge shot gun

and a good old fashion rueger 10 .22 :)

[Yelram]

And that is very legitimate. I like guns, always have, am more or less proficient with rifles (I suck with handguns), and as I said, can't wait to get me an H&K .223 in a few years. You're breaking down open doors here.

What pisses me off is guys like Yelram trying to make the act of purchasing a firearm to be some statement for all that's good in the world, and people who abhor them to be the enemies of liberty. Say "I like guns because they're fun", great; "because I admire them as machines, same as a Swiss watch", cool; "because I live in a dodgy neighbourhood", no problem.

But if you tell me that every gun owner in America owns guns primarily to represent the fundamental rightness of the American way of life, I'll laugh in your fucking face. People don't buy Porsches to make statements against government imposed speed limits and fuel prices, they buy them because they're fun and you can pull chicks in them.

Dude, I never fucking said that, you imagined it in your schizophrenic mind. I am not even a registered gun owner, I have a .22 rifle thats it. I never said it was any sort of fundamental "rightness". I said that I saw people wielding guns walking down the highway, and instead of thinking "oh lordy, should we call the police?", I thought to myself, in this country, we feel secure enough around our own populace to allow such a thing. Thats it. You must have a cock the size of a fucking tic tac for as often as you project. Now, i'll admit, I did lather the first comment with a couple phrases I knew would bait you into a "Deutchland isch das besten!!" argument, but hey, thats how it goes.

[Archangel]

Yeah, making fun of my English really reinforces your argument, especially since it really is that bad.

[tockit]

Gee, tockit. I bet a lot would have been accomplished with a handgun against AK-47s, except the handgunner's death.

Yep, all the world would be safe, but for some wacky governments not allowing their citizens to carry sidearms: no terrorists would dare to storm hotels with automatic rifles, suicide bombers would be scared to kill themselves because they might get shot, and 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

Your posts show why we need gun control laws.

Actually dumbass, there were only around 10 attackers that stormed the Taj Mahal hotel and the Oberoi Trident hotel, and there were hundreds, if not thousands of occupants!

If some of these occupants were armed, they probably wouldn't have been able to prevent the attack, but they sure as heck could have made an impact!

A couple of shots to the backs of the attackers while they were cowardly firing their "illegal" automatic weapons into the crowd might have injured or killed a few of those scumbags!

When you're unloading a machine gun, you can't pay attention to everything going on around you!

9/11 would still have happened, because you can't take handguns onto airplanes, although on flight 91, a few very brave passengers ambushed the attackers and brought the airplane down before it reached the Capitol building. There are strength in numbers!

And, believe it or not Morfin, according to the National Center for Policy Analysis in states that have concealed carry laws, crimes have fallen drastically.

In the 31 states that now have "concealed right to carry" laws, murders were down, on average, by 8.5 percent.


Rapes were down 5 percent and serious assaults by 7 percent.


In cities with populations of more than 250,000, murder rates dropped after the passage of such laws by an average of 13.5 percent.

The most dramatic falls in murder rates were in areas where the number of women carrying firearms was high.


The study found that for every woman who carries a concealed hand, the murder rate fell by three to four times more than it would have if one more man had carried a concealed gun.


If states with concealed handgun bans had allowed them in 1992, about 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and more than 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided.

In addition, the researchers have found no evidence of an increase in accidental killings or suicides in states with concealed carry laws.

We live in an evil world out there today. There are gangs that require members (in order to join), to go out and kill an innocent person! Terrorism is spreading like wildfire, and there are rumblings about it going nuclear, etc, etc!

So Morphin, you, like the rest of the sheep out there, can keep relying on the Government to protect you. As for myself, I'll take my handgun, which, for the time being, is my Constitutional right!