Greeks Riot

[Le Goat]

ATHENS, Greece – Greece's interior minister says the massive protest riots in cities across the country are "unacceptable" but insists that police are doing all they can to protect people's lives and property.
Thousands of youths are rampaging through Athens, the northern city of Thessaloniki and several other cities in the third day of riots Monday after police shot and killed a teenager on Saturday.
Minister Prokopis Pavlopoulos spoke after the Greek government held an emergency meeting Monday night.
In the center of the Greek capital, hooded and masked protesters are throwing Molotov cocktails at riot police, who are responding with tear gas. Dozens of shops have been burned or smashed and looted.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Gangs of youths smashed their way through central Athens and Thessaloniki on Monday, torching stores and buildings after the fatal police shooting of a teenager sparked Greece's worst rioting in decades.
Dozens of shops, banks and even luxury hotels had their windows smashed and burned in a night of lawlessness as youths fought running battles with riot police. Black smoke rose above the city center, mingling with clouds of tear gas.
Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis, whose increasingly unpopular government has already faced a growing number of sometimes violent demonstrations in recent months, called an emergency Cabinet meeting Monday night.
In Athens, rioters torched the capital's massive Christmas tree in central Syntagma Square. As the hooded youths moved on, some protesters posed for photos in front of the blaze, and others sang the Greek version of "O Christmas Tree."
The windows of two of Athens' luxury hotels, the Athens Plaza and the Grande Bretagne on Syntagma Square, were smashed. A hotel guard at the Athens Plaza said its guests had been evacuated.
A lone man with a bucket of water struggled to extinguish a fire in the ground floor of the Foreign Ministry, opposite Parliament. Fires were also reported in the building of an airline and a Greek bank, as well as in tens of other stores in most of Athens' major central streets.
Rioters, meanwhile, set up burning barricades across downtown streets.
Scenes of destruction also unfolded in Thessaloniki, where hundreds of masked and hooded youths hurled rocks and molotov cocktails at storefronts and riot police, who responded with tear gas.
The fire departments of both cities rushed to respond to the widespread destruction. In Athens, rioters surrounded one small fire truck as it tried to extinguish a blaze, smashing the truck's windows before setting it alight.
Elsewhere, rioters looted a store selling hunting weapons and swords.
Greek media also reported fires and destruction in the central city of Larissa.
Massive riots first erupted Saturday across the country, from Thessaloniki in the north to the island of Crete in the south, after 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos was fatally shot by a police officer in Athens' often volatile Exarchia district.
The circumstances surrounding the shooting are unclear, but the two officers involved have been arrested; one has been charged with murder and the other as an accomplice. A coroner's report shows the boy was shot in the chest.
Schools were to shut Tuesday in mourning, while staff at universities declared a three-day strike.
The Police Officers' Association has apologized to the boy's family, and President Karolos Papoulias sent a telegram to his parents expressing his condolences.
"All the dangerous and unacceptable events that occurred because of the emotions that followed the tragic incident cannot and will not be tolerated," Karamanlis said in a live televised address Monday morning. "The state will protect society."
But his calls for calm went unheeded and the scenes of destruction are likely to further dent the government's popularity.
In an outpouring of rage, high school and university students join self-styled anarchists in throwing everything from fruit and coins to rocks and Molotov cocktails at police and attacked police stations throughout the day.
"Cops! Pigs! Murderers!" protesters screamed at riot police.
Abroad, demonstrators raised banners at the Greek Embassy in London and the black-and-red anarchist flag at the Greek consulate in Berlin.
Separately, about 10,000 protesters from the Communist Party of Greece and another left-wing party marched through the center of Athens.
With the global financial crisis hitting Greek consumers, shop owners worried the violence would hurt consumer confidence.
"It comes at a time when we have been trying so hard to establish a Christmas spirit in the market," said Vassilis Krokidis, head of the Piraeus Traders' Association. "Our challenge remains getting through the economic crisis and saving the jobs of those who work in regular businesses."
One assistant at a china shop watched in fear as rioters attacked her store.
"Nobody seems to care about the employees at the burnt shops, what will their fate be now over the Christmas season?" said the woman, who gave her name only as Eleni.
Although there is little public support for street violence or wanton destruction of property, there is a deep well of tolerance for demonstrations in Greece, where the right to protest is held dear.
Violence often breaks out between riot police and anarchists during demonstrations. Anarchist groups are also blamed for late-night firebombings of targets such as banks and diplomatic vehicles. The attacks rarely cause injuries.
The self-styled anarchist movement partly traces its roots in the resistance to Greece's 1967-74 military dictatorship. The youths tend to espouse general anti-capitalist and antiestablishment principles, and have long-running animosity toward the police.

[Grieves]

The youths tend to espouse general anti-capitalist and antiestablishment principles, and have long-running animosity toward the police.

How unsettling.

[taters]

The circumstances surrounding the shooting are unclear, but the two officers involved have been arrested; one has been charged with murder and the other as an accomplice. A coroner's report shows the boy was shot in the chest.

Difference between America and Greece right there. They hold their officers accountable for wrongful killings. We slap ours on the wrists and promote them when attention wains.

[mongo]

Difference between America and Greece right there. They hold their officers accountable for wrongful killings. We slap ours on the wrists and promote them when attention wains.

stop being black!

[Claydon]

stop being black!


correction, he should stop being a douchebag.

Tater should listen to Larry Elder.

[taters]

correction, he should stop being a douchebag.

Tater should listen to Larry Elder.

Get off Larry Elders dick! Damn. How can you eat breakfast in the morning with that kind of aftertaste?

[Archangel]

Has anyone seen a tater post recently that was not cliché or commonplace?

[Claydon]

Get off Larry Elders dick! Damn. How can you eat breakfast in the morning with that kind of aftertaste?

Republican black >>>>> than you

[hatepoppy]

Has anyone seen a tater post recently that was not cliché or commonplace?
recently?

[wacker]

I want one of these kinds of riots to take place somewhere close to where I live while I am still 'youth' enough to take advantage of it.

[taters]

Arch, you the 'Germans > Americans' "I hate muslims" poster are calling me cliche? A bit of the pot calling the kettle black (I wish I had a pun for that).

[Archangel]

Yeah, because that's all I am, little tater.

[Whiffleball]

TBLwg1BO-Ss

RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE, BROSEPH

x5Byy8IUr9o

[lusonico]

The real problem is the tidal wave of ilegal imigrants swarming Greece. Just by October of 2008, 80.000 ilegals have entered the country and battles have been happening from way back. Crime is way high and at the center of it, you got it, muslims.

But now the thing is getting publicity because a greek teenager was killed (yet to verify WTF happened) and the greek anarchists, comunists and revolutionary student cores are joining the turmoil...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/02/europe/greece.php?page=1

[Yelram]

The real problem is the tidal wave of ilegal imigrants swarming Greece. Just by October of 2008, 80.000 ilegals have entered the country and battles have been happening from way back. Crime is way high and at the center of it, you got it, muslims.

But now the thing is getting publicity because a greek teenager was killed (yet to verify WTF happened) and the greek anarchists, comunists and revolutionary student cores are joining the turmoil...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/02/europe/greece.php?page=1

Hey you mean "youths" not muslims, quit being so insensitive and politically incorrect.

[Archangel]

Every time something like this happens, I look at my left leaning friends (thankfully very few), and go, "you really want to be associated with this bunch?"

[Swurgen]

The real problem is the tidal wave of ilegal imigrants swarming Greece. Just by October of 2008, 80.000 ilegals have entered the country and battles have been happening from way back. Crime is way high and at the center of it, you got it, muslims.

But now the thing is getting publicity because a greek teenager was killed (yet to verify WTF happened) and the greek anarchists, comunists and revolutionary student cores are joining the turmoil...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/02/europe/greece.php?page=1

Don't you mean undocumented citizens?

[Whiffleball]

The real problem is the tidal wave of ilegal imigrants swarming Greece. Just by October of 2008, 80.000 ilegals have entered the country and battles have been happening from way back. Crime is way high and at the center of it, you got it, muslims.

But now the thing is getting publicity because a greek teenager was killed (yet to verify WTF happened) and the greek anarchists, comunists and revolutionary student cores are joining the turmoil...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/02/europe/greece.php?page=1

Okay, Lou Dobbs! Take an unrelated crisis and turn it around to bash not just illegal immigrant brown people, but Islam as well! You know, I have long suspected that America's own immigration problem is part of some grand Catholic conspiracy! I have my best racist detectives on it right now!

I can tell how informed you are of the riots, though, because you're not afraid to admit that you don't know what happened with the murder of Alexandros Grigoropoulos in an act of police brutality. That shows you value instinct over knowledge, just like our great President Bush!

Every time something like this happens, I look at my left leaning friends (thankfully very few), and go, "you really want to be associated with this bunch?"

Really? Because when some neo-Nazi or fascist group does something, I don't turn to my conservative-leaning friends and ask them that question. Because I'm smart enough to know there's a difference between average people whose politics happen to lean left or right versus fanatical extremists on either side of the political spectrum.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on politics in the riots anyway. Is it all that shocking that these young people who are rioting fall on the left? Hell, I knew lots of communists and anarchists in college but a lot of them eventually grew out of it or at the very least matured. None of them now would think that causing massive amounts of property damage would be an effective way of doing something.

I swear, Arch, I'm going to fly to Germany and take you to St. Pauli and get you to lighten up, mayne.

[taters]

The real problem is the tidal wave of ilegal imigrants swarming Greece. Just by October of 2008, 80.000 ilegals have entered the country and battles have been happening from way back. Crime is way high and at the center of it, you got it, muslims.

But now the thing is getting publicity because a greek teenager was killed (yet to verify WTF happened) and the greek anarchists, comunists and revolutionary student cores are joining the turmoil...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/02/europe/greece.php?page=1

Yes. Only commies, immigrants, young hippies, and anarchists could possibly be enraged by a wrongful murder by a public official. 'Regular people' support and endorse such things. Gotta break a few innocent teenage eggs to have a capitalist, democratic omelet. This all must be immigrants fault. And Im willing to bet negros are somehow involved...


/blatant sarcasm...incase anyones new here.

But really, I love how a few of you (looking at our mutual german friend) have focused in on the rioters, but are completely excusing the fact that the police killed some fucking kid. An innocent one at that. Priorities?

Reminds me of the Rodney king issue, sans racial minorities. 'Certain peoples' around the nation were focused in on the riot, but completly oblivious to the reasons behind it, to the point of excusing it.

ie "Sometimes its ok to beat/kill a few people if your a cop, especially if their (fill in the blank)...that job is stressful and those people are usually guilty of something!"

[lusonico]

Okay, Lou Dobbs! Take an unrelated crisis and turn it around to bash not just illegal immigrant brown people, but Islam as well! You know, I have long suspected that America's own immigration problem is part of some grand Catholic conspiracy! I have my best racist detectives on it right now!

If 80.000 illegal immigrants entered this year alone by October, what do you think has been happening the previous years? The government has been taking initiatives to legalize these new citizens more than 500.000 so far, out of 950.000 estimated illegals, this in country the size of Florida. Then who profits from all these new low education voters? Right or Left? If illegals and legal immigrants swarm the country and take on all non specialized jobs young people used to get their hands on, than who will these infantile teenagers whine to? To the immigrants, who they've been endoctrinated by multiculturalism to accept as rightfull greek citizens or the easy to hate, easy to villanify government? Sure push to the side the only universal factor present at every turmoil in mankind, the clash of cultures and different people. In every single european country, riots and high scale violence and crime are connected to the presence of large numbers of immigrants, just ignore that, it has nothing to do with it. Greece followed a open border policy, naturalization of illegals. Got increased problems, police had to adjust to harsher times becoming harsher as well, kids don't, keep acting like babies and complaining about DA PO-LI-CE. One kid gets killed, everything explodes.

I can tell how informed you are of the riots, though, because you're not afraid to admit that you don't know what happened with the murder of Alexandros Grigoropoulos in an act of police brutality. That shows you value instinct over knowledge, just like our great President Bush!


Now, isn't that nice? A kid gets killed and the most natural thing is for all hell break loose, right?:rolleyes:

My knowledge tells me the rioters COULD NOT FUCKING KNOW exactly what happened by the time they decided to burn central Athens, since the cops are detained for questioning and the authopsy to the kid's corpse remains to be done and/or revealed.

My instinct now, tells me that the claim little 16 year old Alexandros was just around a quiet anarchist neighbourhood one night when the cops dicided they should kill a teenager just for the fun of it, is really not very well explained or proved (busted stores and burnt cars does little to prove this). And besides, how much does it matter the fact it was a kid to be killed, for the purpose of proving police brutality? It's not like kids these days, specially those hooked by extremist movements can't do stupid things as attack the police.

However, by their actions these youths show that they are very well capable of attacking the police and destroy inocent peoples property, it's youths as young as or little older than Alexanders DOING THIS! Proving this is not about young Alexander's death, but about radical sentiments among a more and more acultured youth.

But really, I love how a few of you (looking at our mutual german friend) have focused in on the rioters, but are completely excusing the fact that the police killed some fucking kid. An innocent one at that. Priorities?


Innocent? Because he was a young person? Now who's being naive?:rolleyes:

I say, look at reality, and you'll see plenty innocent kids in battleground Athens burning innocent people's restaurants, banks, cars, stores... Not counting the 40/50 cops injured (because those are the bad guys, you know?)

[redsox39]

Difference between America and Greece right there. They hold their officers accountable for wrongful killings. We slap ours on the wrists and promote them when attention wains.

And it just proves that hatred for cops is more important than any facts. If they are being tried for Murder, why burn down the City? You are completely retarded, not that it was ever in doubt.


But really, I love how a few of you (looking at our mutual german friend) have focused in on the rioters, but are completely excusing the fact that the police killed some fucking kid. An innocent one at that. Priorities?


Reminds me of the Rodney king issue, sans racial minorities. 'Certain peoples' around the nation were focused in on the riot, but completly oblivious to the reasons behind it, to the point of excusing it.
"

Glad to see you know the details of the case. Poor innocent kid buy candy at the Kiosk. Some Mean old cop felt the need to kill someone and decided this kid was it. Thanks for clearing that up for me, I was confused. Who knows if the kid was innocent or not? And since he just became the poster boy for this riot, he could have been in the process of molesting and killing children and it wouldn't matter at this point. it would all be a set up for this "Martyr".

And yet, he could be innocent, but you have no fucking clue, and in any case, rioting is stupid. Go ahead Black California, take your anger out on hard working Koreans. I can see where that makes total sense. If you can't control yourself, and there are hundreds of you, that makes you worse than the incident itself.

Tater, I hope you get pulled over someday by those Greek cops after they are acquitted.

[taters]

And it just proves that hatred for cops is more important than any facts. If they are being tried for Murder, why burn down the City? You are completely retarded, not that it was ever in doubt.



Glad to see you know the details of the case. Poor innocent kid buy candy at the Kiosk. Some Mean old cop felt the need to kill someone and decided this kid was it. Thanks for clearing that up for me, I was confused. Who knows if the kid was innocent or not? And since he just became the poster boy for this riot, he could have been in the process of molesting and killing children and it wouldn't matter at this point. it would all be a set up for this "Martyr".

And yet, he could be innocent, but you have no fucking clue, and in any case, rioting is stupid. Go ahead Black California, take your anger out on hard working Koreans. I can see where that makes total sense. If you can't control yourself, and there are hundreds of you, that makes you worse than the incident itself.

Tater, I hope you get pulled over someday by those Greek cops after they are acquitted.



You know, I did say 'sans racial minorities'. I didnt pull up the racial issue in this case (its not there).

I actually agree that rioting in 99% of circumstances is pointless and stupid, even in this case. I am just more focused on the cause rather than the result. The result will be like all riot results = Some people will go to jail, some property will be destroyed, it will end and people will all but forget about it other than as a historical media blip.

But in order to prevent it from happening again, the cause needs to be looked at. You cant excise the cancer without telling the patient maybe he should stop smoking.

If Im ever driving in greece and not balls deep in a club of beautiful women and great seafood, I deserve to be pulled over.

[Morfin]

But in order to prevent it from happening again, the cause needs to be looked at. You cant excise the cancer without telling the patient maybe he should stop smoking.

They are. It says so in the first article Goat posted:

The circumstances surrounding the shooting are unclear, but the two officers involved have been arrested; one has been charged with murder and the other as an accomplice. A coroner's report shows the boy was shot in the chest.

[vicar in a tutu]

It's frightening what's going on in Greece at the moment, in fact, it's Greece frightening if you will?


Okay, okay don't push...

[lusonico]

Gee, will this at least appease a little those people rioting allegedly because of a teenager executed by the police?:rolleyes:


Forensic experts also confirmed that it was a ricochet: "the bullet is a bit deformed, which shows the bullet touched a hard surface" before hitting Alexis in chest.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=78036&sectionid=351020606

[Morfin]

Well, well, well...

Initial results from the post-mortem on the 15-year old boy indicate that the ricochet from a warning shot was the cause of Alexis Grigoropoulos' death, court sources said Wednesday.

Grigoropoulos was among a group of youths who threw stones at a police vehicle in the Exarchia district -- a troubled zone used as a hangout by anarchist gangs.

Forensic experts also confirmed that it was a ricochet: "the bullet is a bit deformed, which shows the bullet touched a hard surface" before hitting Alexis in chest.

“The investigation shows it was a ricochet ... In the end, this was an accident,” the policeman's lawyer said.

Two police officers were arrested over the case. One of the officers claimed that he fired two warning shots in the air and a third on the ground, which ended up killing the boy.


It appears -- and I stress the word "appears" -- that there was a rush to judgment. Nothing new there.

But the question I have is why were the police officers arrested before the basic forensic evidence was analyzed? Politicians mollifying the mob? Or, routine Greek practice, different from the American system?

[Whiffleball]

long stream of consciousness rant about how immigrants cause nothing but problems

The lack of any proper grammar or punctuation made that a bit of a chore to read with comprehension, but I managed my way through it. So, as I understand it, having an open border policy is the source of Greece's ills? What a bunch of hooey. First of all, the departure of poorly-paid, unskilled jobs most acutely affects native working class people, not necessarily young people. Young people in Greece, as in most places, are either 1) still dependent to some degree on their parents and/or 2) going to school, largely so they can get skilled jobs unavailable to working class immigrants. In point of fact, lots of young Greek young people are going abroad to attend university rather than milling about at home, grumbling about how "THEY TOOK OUR JEEEEEEERRRBBBBSSSS!"

Obviously an influx of people from poor, uneducated backgrounds who don't have jobs can create problems, but the most effective way of dealing with this is not to create some sort of Fortress Europe or Fortress America where we revel in xenophobia and blame everything on "the other". Dealing with these problems is best done in same way we deal with our own people who are locked in poverty, stuck in a cycle of crime: through a strong and well-funded education system, through public works programs and stimulation/innovation in industry, through welfare to the disadvantaged. "Blaming the brown people" like the Lou Dobbs crowd does is just cheap populism, meant to whip up the majority to lynch the minority.

However, by their actions these youths show that they are very well capable of attacking the police and destroy inocent peoples property, it's youths as young as or little older than Alexanders DOING THIS! Proving this is not about young Alexander's death, but about radical sentiments among a more and more acultured youth.

I say, look at reality, and you'll see plenty innocent kids in battleground Athens burning innocent people's restaurants, banks, cars, stores... Not counting the 40/50 cops injured (because those are the bad guys, you know?)

Oh, please. They're just kids. I'm not saying the rioting is a good thing, but to demonize them is just as wrong as painting the police and the government as purely evil. Young people in general tend to be impressionable and impulsive, so we shouldn't be all that surprised that, when given the impetus, this is the way they're acting out.

And I don't think the impetus was just that the kids were bored trouble-makers or that they are inherently radical leftists and thus up to no good.

Obviously this was a combination of many things... The Greek Prime Minister is in the midst of a political crisis, hanging on to power by one vote and caught in a land-swap scandal.

There is a general strike in the works over the government's economic policies.

And of course there is a long history of tension between the police and the public, especially young people.

Again, I don't condone the rioting and the destruction of property. But this was obviously larger than the shooting of Grigoropoulos, richochet or not. His death was just the spark that set off a powder keg that had been built long before.

[Rover]

Obviously an influx of people from poor, uneducated backgrounds who don't have jobs can create problems, but the most effective way of dealing with this is not to create some sort of Fortress Europe or Fortress America where we revel in xenophobia and blame everything on "the other". Dealing with these problems is best done in same way we deal with our own people who are locked in poverty, stuck in a cycle of crime: through a strong and well-funded education system, through public works programs and stimulation/innovation in industry, through welfare to the disadvantaged. "Blaming the brown people" like the Lou Dobbs crowd does is just cheap populism, meant to whip up the majority to lynch the minority.Right. America, dealing the death blow to poverty, since 1964. But poverty is a worthy opponent, what, with it's constant rate and never ending cycle.

[Whiffleball]

Right. America, dealing the death blow to poverty, since 1964. But poverty is a worthy opponent, what, with it's constant rate and never ending cycle.

We will never fully eliminate poverty, of course, but that doesn't mean we should allow people to be stuck with poverty pay by not paying them a living wage; that we shouldn't provide them with the opportunities to educate and train themselves for a full and well-paying career; that we shouldn't provide assistance to those who find themselves stuck in a rut of unemployment through no fault of their own.

Protip: This is not an an endorsement of welfare fraud, conservatives.

[taters]

Right. America, dealing the death blow to poverty, since 1964. But poverty is a worthy opponent, what, with it's constant rate and never ending cycle.

If you are alluding to what I think you are, the CR acts of the 60s didnt eliminate poverty, but they definited did a lot to end the enforced relegation of an entire race to impoverishment via legal and statutory law.

The black middle class is small compared to the white middle class (but larger than any other race including asians...ask for citation if you want it), but it exists. That was not the case pre CR. Yes there was a black middle class, but that only meant people who are middle class in black socio economic comparisons, not middle class in comparison to the nation as a whole.

Would the conservative alternative have been better (simply doing nothing and enjoying the defacto status increase and lack of economic competition from a large mass of people within the nation)? Probably, for non-minorities/conservatives. Not for everyone else.

Shits gotten better slower than it should have, but it has gotten better that it would have if nothing was done.

[lusonico]

Oh, please. They're just kids. I'm not saying the rioting is a good thing, but to demonize them is just as wrong as painting the police and the government as purely evil. Young people in general tend to be impressionable and impulsive, so we shouldn't be all that surprised that, when given the impetus, this is the way they're acting out.

"Just Kids", setting police men on fire in a non demonic way (lucky cops!), certainly justifiable under the impressionable and impulsive nature of youthness.:rolleyes:
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn122/lusonico/Greek_on_fire.jpg

Ah, and the good old european solidarity...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEDdgy8LONg

Greek riots spread across Europe
http://www.torontosun.com/news/world/2008/12/12/7725661.html

Greek protests go global
http://www.euronews.net/en/article/11/12/2008/greek-protests-go-global/

[taters]

"Just Kids", setting police men on fire in a non demonic way (lucky cops!), certainly justifiable under the impressionable and impulsive nature of youthness.:rolleyes:
http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn122/lusonico/Greek_on_fire.jpg

Ah, and the good old european solidarity...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEDdgy8LONg

Greek riots spread across Europe
http://www.torontosun.com/news/world/2008/12/12/7725661.html

Greek protests go global
http://www.euronews.net/en/article/11/12/2008/greek-protests-go-global/

Considering the level of corruption in their nation, maybe this is the only thing the public will listen to or the only way to get their message out.


Why is it that when young people in China 'riot' and throw mass demostrations they are celebrated and martyrized, when people in places like greece or france do it, they are 'anarchists' or 'acting mindlessly'? Double standards?


Anyway, the latest news verifies this has NOTHING TO DO WITH IMMIGRANTS and everything to do with the young people of the nation tired of their leaders corruption (which if your a righty in America right now cheering on the prosecution of the Illinois Governor, you should understand).

These BS attempts at blaming the riots on immigrants is both cheap, pointless, lacking evidence and tremendously bigoted and xenophobic. Next thing you know, you guys will claim its all the work of illegal immigrant muslim mexican black interracial homosexual couples who work in union jobs who are causing this.

[Whiffleball]

"Just Kids", setting police men on fire in a non demonic way (lucky cops!), certainly justifiable under the impressionable and impulsive nature of youthness.:rolleyes:

"Youthness"? Look, I make the effort to try and comprehend what you write. Perhaps you could return the favor.

I made it clear I don't think the rioting, the violence, the property destruction are good things or justifiable. But even you have to understand that when a group of people are severely disillusioned and have frustrations that have been building up for the past few years, there is going to be a response. The government and the entire state mechanism is indolent and corrupt, the unemployment is high and the global financial crisis is also starting to affect Greece while the government seems utterly incapable of dealing with that. Combine all that with the impulsiveness and unbridled energy of youth, and you're going to have the shit hit the fan.

I mean, I've been pretty fucking pissed off that we're mired down in two wars, one of which we had no good reason for starting. I think it fucking sucks that our leaders led us into giving up lots of civil liberties and abandoned basic morality by sanctioning torture. I think it's bullshit that we're seeing some of the worst unemployment numbers in decades and that we seem to be heading to an epoch-defining economic slump, not to mention a ton of deficit that my generation and future ones will have to pay off. With that sort of fire under our collective ass, I can understand the desire to get angry and to take to the streets -- especially for southern Europeans, who have it worse off than my pampered American self.

Does that mean I'm going to throw a brick through a window or set a cop on fire? Fuck no. What the hell is that going to accomplish? You had a better chance for actual revolution in 1968 and we all know how the Weather Underground turned out. All wanton violence and anarchy accomplishes is tragedy and bitterness.

So while I myself don't approve of the Watts riots, the riots after the Rodney King verdict, the riots in France in spring 1968 and all similar events... I can motherfucking understand when the weight of the world presses down so hard on you that you feel like just picking up a wrench and throwing it into the goddamn machine. I can see how someone can be so jaded that they see no hope in sight, that they'd rather see the world around them burn than live another day with the stress building up.

These kids in Greece think the government is so fucking corrupt it can't sort itself out to actually do the job it was supposed to do. They don't know how they're going to make a life for themselves if the economy is totally in the shitter because nobody did anything to save it. And they're sick and tired of being antagonized by a heavyhanded police force that they obviously have a bone to pick with.

So, to paraphrase Chris Rock... I'm not saying they should do the shit they're doing, but... I understand.

L2BVQyQaENE

[lusonico]

Considering the level of corruption in their nation, maybe this is the only thing the public will listen to or the only way to get their message out.

Give me a break, where are you from? I'm from Portugal, the poorest, problably the corruptest country in Europe, and we are not burning stores and setting cops on fire (what kind of sick mind would think incinerating a person proves a point?). I mean, we, the portuguese, are the living proof for all you "poverty is responsable for violence" crowd. We make less money and pay more taxes than any allegedly minority in the United States. And we still don't riot half as much. SHIT, we don't even riot! The difference beteween Greece and Portugal, who have similar economics, is Greece's proximity to the waves of migrants. They are stuck in the frontier of Europe with africa/middle east. We are still stuck here in the outermost zone of western Europe and already we can trace a direct relation beteween immgrants from the third world and crime. Here, gypsies and africans shooting each other in the streets of Lisbon.
http://www.youtube.com/v/yGmISHD1RAw

Why is it that when young people in China 'riot' and throw mass demostrations they are celebrated and martyrized, when people in places like greece or france do it, they are 'anarchists' or 'acting mindlessly'? Double standards?

I think it's got somethig to do with the FACT that France is a democracy and China isn't.:rolleyes:



Anyway, the latest news verifies this has NOTHING TO DO WITH IMMIGRANTS and everything to do with the young people of the nation tired of their leaders corruption (which if your a righty in America right now cheering on the prosecution of the Illinois Governor, you should understand).

These BS attempts at blaming the riots on immigrants is both cheap, pointless, lacking evidence and tremendously bigoted and xenophobic. Next thing you know, you guys will claim its all the work of illegal immigrant muslim mexican black interracial homosexual couples who work in union jobs who are causing this.


Cultural mArxists, anarchists and immigrants.:cool:

[Morfin]

Whiffleball: I understand your argument and agree with it in theory. I say, "in theory," because I have a hard time believing that these kids, or the Rodney King rioters, were doing it out of frustration. In my opinion, it is a group thinking as a mob, doing what they want, knowing that there will be no repurcussions. People just riot.

Take sports championships. We in Detroit have seen riots after the Tigers won the World Series in 1984, and when the Pistons won the NBA Championship in 1989 where people rioted all over the place, causing millions in damage. This was not a frustration thing -- it was an adrenaline-fueled mob thing.

Take the Rodney King riots, where the youths kicked the Denny guy, the semi driver, beat him up, and threw a chunk of concrete at him. That was frustration about the Man keeping them down? No, it was a mob doing whatever it wanted knowing that the chance of being caught was minimal.

Yes, the riots in Greece were started due to the police shooting, but I believe their extent had little to do with the shooting, and more to do with adrenaline- and hormone-fueled male youths doing some "wilding," more for kicks and thrills, caring little ablout why they were doing it -- just having a blast breaking shit.

[Archangel]

Have you people ever met any European leftist students? They riot because it's the only thing they know how to do. The problem is that, the left having gotten all it could ever want here, they have no causes left to riot for. And even if there were, do you honestly think that these jackasses are politically aware? Seriously? What does the average American teenager know about corruption in politics? Why do you think these are any different? All they ever go by are dumbed down slogans and long dead ideologies: They wouldn't know which way to hold a newspaper.

And a large part of these kids are pampered middle class mommy's boys who stop caring about personal hygiene and start chanting slogans or throwing rocks to rebel against their parents and impress smelly chicks. I do not need to illustrate the irony of some stoner 17-year-old talking about the oppressed working class while planning his vacation at his evil capitalist daddy's summer house. Shit, I grew up around those people. One thing about America - at least there, rich kids, by and large, act the fucking part.

I will say one thing, though: If they were protesting the incompetence of their government, they did certainly make a point. The entire police force of a nation state cannot spank some kids and send them to bed without dessert - what a fucking embarrassment.

[Infotainment]

NO BREAD FOR GYROS!?!?!?

[taters]

Give me a break, where are you from? I'm from Portugal, the poorest, problably the corruptest country in Europe, and we are not burning stores and setting cops on fire (what kind of sick mind would think incinerating a person proves a point?).

I dont know, a military minded nation? (I almost made a joke about colonialist portugal/spain, but refrained).

YOu may know more than I, but the latest GDP reports put Moldavia as the poorest country in europe. And after that Albania and Latvia I think. Portugal may be the poorest Western Euro nation, if thats what you meant. And I dont think it was poverty that caused this. The local and (their) domestic media all seem to be saying this was caused by insatisfaction with the governments corruption and lack of political voice.


I mean, we, the portuguese, are the living proof for all you "poverty is responsable for violence" crowd. We make less money and pay more taxes than any allegedly minority in the United States. And we still don't riot half as much. SHIT, we don't even riot! [/quote]

There it is again. There is no evidence this had anything to do with minorities. Neither the victim of the police shooting, the rioters, or the riotee victims have been predominantly (or ant at all) minorities.

Besides, minority riots in America have nothing to do with taxes, and everything to do with discrepancies in government treatment and legal policy. You may want to do more research on the subject before mentioning it. A good (but not totally accurate) parrallel would be the basques in Spain, or the northern Irish catholics.

Would you call chinese protesters 'leftist'? Do they hold the same standard, considering they are protesting the far left (socially) policies of their nation? Does protest = communism? Seriously, the 'leftist' franco-mccarthy 'kill all minorities and poor people' thoughts are so 20th century. Lets move forward and actually deal with the real problems not some scapgoat for the masses.

[Whiffleball]

Whiffleball: I understand your argument and agree with it in theory. I say, "in theory," because I have a hard time believing that these kids, or the Rodney King rioters, were doing it out of frustration. In my opinion, it is a group thinking as a mob, doing what they want, knowing that there will be no repurcussions. People just riot.

...

Yes, the riots in Greece were started due to the police shooting, but I believe their extent had little to do with the shooting, and more to do with adrenaline- and hormone-fueled male youths doing some "wilding," more for kicks and thrills, caring little ablout why they were doing it -- just having a blast breaking shit.

First of all, this is being described as being part of a larger social insurrection, and given how long this has been going on and how far it spread, you can't fairly compare it to one riot in one city for one night due to a championship game. The riots in Greece and the riots in Detroit that you mention are both savage explosions based on wild, unbridled emotion, but I think the scale and impact marks the difference between crazy fans and a pseudo-revolution.

People don't just riot. It takes something really special to get under their asses. With the fans, they feel like they just witnessed a once in a lifetime thing, something that has been built up inside them and they go nuts. It's a drunken mob and the people feel like doing whatever they feel. Generally, it doesn't last longer than a night and (correct me if I'm wrong) it's pretty much limited to a neighborhood or two in that particular city.

With the Rodney King riots and the Greek riots, it's not just a mixture of ecstatic emotion and alcohol but years and years of shit building up. The political corruption. Unemployment and a terrible economy. Repression by the authorities. That is why those riots take place on such a grander scale and have greater staying power. That's why "normal" people go to such an extreme form of anarchy... They feel they've reached a point of nothing left to lose.

I do agree that all riots are indeed mindless orgies that achieve really nothing of value. But I disagree that all riots are started for trivial reasons or no reason at all. The Greek riots are happening (and spreading) because young people and others are sick and tired of the status quo. They think that the system has failed them and since they can't change the status quo through the system, they're taking to the streets.

Instead of looking for a logical motivation for the rioters (like a specific political goal), one should be try to locate the source of the unease so that future riots can be prevented. I have a feeling that as the global economic crisis deepens, you're going to see a lot more acts of violence and social unrest everywhere.

Have you people ever met any European leftist students? They riot because it's the only thing they know how to do. The problem is that, the left having gotten all it could ever want here, they have no causes left to riot for.

Wow, way to make unfair generalizations. All European leftist students know how to do is riot? They don't organize, spread pamphlets, hold peaceful demonstrations, etc.? Utter nonsense. If all they did was riot, Europe would be constant chaos 24/7.

And left has gotten everything it wanted? Have you even read any of the articles about the political situation in Greece? Karamanlis' economic policies have been to privatize government-owned corporations, privatize public universities and to eliminate pensions. I don't know if you know this, but those are things the left tends to be against.

And even if there were, do you honestly think that these jackasses are politically aware? Seriously? What does the average American teenager know about corruption in politics? Why do you think these are any different? All they ever go by are dumbed down slogans and long dead ideologies: They wouldn't know which way to hold a newspaper.You're comparing American youths to Greek youths? American youths don't have to deal with the same obstacles Greek youths have to deal with to get into university. If an American youth gets a degree and becomes a doctor or a lawyer, he's not going to be earning poverty pay like a Greek youth is. American youths are not living with their parents until they are in their 30s on the same scale Greek youths are to cope with their troubled economic situation. Yes, times are getting tough in the United States now, but for a troubled country like Greece, it's ten times worse.

So obviously young people over there are going to care more about the political situation and how it affects them than they are in the United States or other prosperous Western nations. Are they all brilliant and well-informed? Of course not. But what has transformed these riots from a few isolated cases is because at bare minimum these Greek kids know how badly off they are, how bad things look on the horizon and how hard it is going to be to affect change. If they were truly brilliant, they would realize that property destruction isn't going to accomplish anything, but if they were all indifferent idiots, they would all be sitting at home not caring about the fact that they have to go overseas to get a higher education, that their job prospects look dim, that they're being ruled by corrupt and ineffective demagogues.

And a large part of these kids are pampered middle class mommy's boys who stop caring about personal hygiene and start chanting slogans or throwing rocks to rebel against their parents and impress smelly chicks. I do not need to illustrate the irony of some stoner 17-year-old talking about the oppressed working class while planning his vacation at his evil capitalist daddy's summer house. Shit, I grew up around those people. One thing about America - at least there, rich kids, by and large, act the fucking part.Another unfair generalization. Usually you're smarter than this Arch, but I guess you can't resist to paint the entire left-wing youth movement in one broad brush. You know, I was a leftist activist at university too, but like most of my colleagues then, I showered every day, cut my hair short and wore nice clothes. The stoners were the most apathetic of all and probably couldn't even tell you who the President was, much less tell you where their politics fell -- if they even had politics at all!

I don't think you have to be a leftist, credible or not, to be pissed off when you're dealing with expensive school, worthless degrees, political corruption, a lack of accountability, etc.

I will say one thing, though: If they were protesting the incompetence of their government, they did certainly make a point. The entire police force of a nation state cannot spank some kids and send them to bed without dessert - what a fucking embarrassment.Spanking and no dessert, huh? Yes, I am sure that this would have been the mild reaction of a police force that has a history of brutality against people!

http://www.ana-mpa.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=7138844&maindocimg=7137626&service=102

A Thessaloniki Court of Appeals on Tuesday handed down guilty verdicts and suspended prison sentences ranging from 15 to 39 months on eight police officers found guilty of severely beating up 26-year-old Cypriot student Avgoustinos Dimitriou two years ago.

The bloody incident was recorded during a march in Thessaloniki commemorating the 33rd anniversary of the Polytechnic School uprising against the junta of the colonels. Police maintained that Dimitriou sustained his injuries when he tripped and fell against a scooter and a large flower pot. However, footage showed that officers had hit and kicked the student when he was on the ground.

Dozens of young protesters demonstrated outside the court building and chanted slogans against police as soon as the court ruling was out. They were dispersed by riot police.And to prove it's not just faux left-wing hipsters having a lark:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/w...e/12greece.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/world/europe/12greece.html)

Many older Greeks were supportive of the younger ones. Standing outside Parliament on Wednesday, Helen Hathidaki paraphrased the Greek writer Nicholas Kazantzakis, saying, “What happens if the youth don’t resist?”

Ms. Hathidaki said she was protesting because of her unhappiness about the economy. She said she had to take a second job cleaning houses because she could not live on her pension. En route to the large union rally on Wednesday, a history researcher at Athens University who gave her name only as Alexandra said she came out partly because of the economy. But she said she also wanted to protest what she called police brutality.

“I’m against violence, but I can understand what’s happening,” she added, saying that people were angry at the government and worried about the economy, and that the death inflamed those feelings. “It’s like a volcano,” she said, “like an explosion.”

[Archangel]

Wow, way to make unfair generalizations. All European leftist students know how to do is riot? They don't organize, spread pamphlets, hold peaceful demonstrations, etc.? Utter nonsense. If all they did was riot, Europe would be constant chaos 24/7.
Yeah, I reckon that you have a point. There are quite a few young people who believe that wearing sandals and singing songs will make US corporations care for the rights of third world workers and Iran give up its nuclear program.

So there are violent idiots and peacenik idiots. I stand corrected.

And left has gotten everything it wanted? Have you even read any of the articles about the political situation in Greece? Karamanlis' economic policies have been to privatize government-owned corporations, privatize public universities and to eliminate pensions. I don't know if you know this, but those are things the left tends to be against.

Yeah, welcome to the 21st bloody century. All these things have happened in other countries, as well, and last I checked, our union workers were still driving Golfs and living in houses.

You're comparing American youths to Greek youths? American youths don't have to deal with the same obstacles Greek youths have to deal with to get into university.
Something tells me that Greek unversity tuitions are nowhere near their American counterparts...

If an American youth gets a degree and becomes a doctor or a lawyer, he's not going to be earning poverty pay like a Greek youth is. American youths are not living with their parents until they are in their 30s on the same scale Greek youths are to cope with their troubled economic situation. Yes, times are getting tough in the United States now, but for a troubled country like Greece, it's ten times worse.

Everything you have said is true for Italy, as well. A friend of mine graduated scl from a prestigious Milan law school, has tits Scarlett Johansson would kill for, and still got a starting job that paid her €1,300 a month, which is about 2/3 of the monthly rent for a flat in Milan.

And yet, apart from some ATTAC terrorist retards spoiling for a fight, I don't see kids in Milan, Turin, Genoa or Rome setting shops on fire.

So obviously young people over there are going to care more about the political situation and how it affects them than they are in the United States or other prosperous Western nations. Are they all brilliant and well-informed? Of course not. But what has transformed these riots from a few isolated cases is because at bare minimum these Greek kids know how badly off they are, how bad things look on the horizon and how hard it is going to be to affect change. If they were truly brilliant, they would realize that property destruction isn't going to accomplish anything, but if they were all indifferent idiots, they would all be sitting at home not caring about the fact that they have to go overseas to get a higher education, that their job prospects look dim, that they're being ruled by corrupt and ineffective demagogues.

Um, here's a novel idea: Vote for somebody else.

Or, failing that, beat up your parents for keeping the same corrupt arseholes in power for generations, for falling for stupid promises, whatever. But don't go torching the cars and shops and livelihoods of working fucking people who, in all likelihood (yay assonance), don't have it any easier than you.

Another unfair generalization. Usually you're smarter than this Arch, but I guess you can't resist to paint the entire left-wing youth movement in one broad brush. You know, I was a leftist activist at university too,
With a Nikolai Bukharin avatar? I never would have guessed.

but like most of my colleagues then, I showered every day, cut my hair short and wore nice clothes. The stoners were the most apathetic of all and probably couldn't even tell you who the President was, much less tell you where their politics fell -- if they even had politics at all!

Maybe things are different where you're from - Britain, I guess? - but in Germany, when you look at the left wing candidates at student council elections, demonstrators at dry cask nuclear transports or at anti-tuition rallies - in short, any form of left wing activism left here - you're liable to smell more pot than soap.

I dunno, but people being superficial, I honestly have no idea how these guys expect to be taken seriously with their dreadlocks and sandals when the other side argues their points in suits and cut hair. I mean, it didn't exactly work out for Jesus of Nazareth, and He was the Son of bloody God...

I don't think you have to be a leftist, credible or not, to be pissed off when you're dealing with expensive school, worthless degrees, political corruption, a lack of accountability, etc.

Probably, but then again, centre-right people under 30 tend to come from rich families, and couldn't therefore care less.

Spanking and no dessert, huh? Yes, I am sure that this would have been the mild reaction of a police force that has a history of brutality against people!

A figure of speech; but the fact is that they're behaving like bloody children. If somebody throws a tantrum and throws shit at me, it usually doesn't help them make their point, no matter how valid it may be.

And to prove it's not just faux left-wing hipsters having a lark:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/w...e/12greece.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/world/europe/12greece.html)

Yeah, aren't the guys complaining the same guys who voted for the current government?

[Whiffleball]

Yeah, welcome to the 21st bloody century. All these things have happened in other countries, as well, and last I checked, our union workers were still driving Golfs and living in houses.

Just because these things have happened elsewhere doesn't make them good (I won't get into that argument) or that they are at all welcomed by the Greeks, many of whom have serious concerns about being able to afford higher education and health care, about having pensions to supplement their income, etc. I'm sure in the unspecified countries you're talking about there are leftists agitating against privatization and public spending cuts, and, as it is in Greece, I'm sure it isn't just trade unions and university students.

Something tells me that Greek unversity tuitions are nowhere near their American counterparts...Obviously if the government is trying to privatize them, they must not be... But it's clear that Greek students are having a hard time getting into universities in Greece and that those that do are finding their degrees of little help in finding a well-paying job. Here in the United States, it's still relatively easily to get into a university (although you'll probably accumulate a lot of debt to do so) and you'll definitely not struggle to find work if you can attain a law or medical degree.

Everything you have said is true for Italy, as well. A friend of mine graduated scl from a prestigious Milan law school, has tits Scarlett Johansson would kill for, and still got a starting job that paid her €1,300 a month, which is about 2/3 of the monthly rent for a flat in Milan.

And yet, apart from some ATTAC terrorist retards spoiling for a fight, I don't see kids in Milan, Turin, Genoa or Rome setting shops on fire.All that proves is that the situation in Italy is not as bad as the situation in Greece, although if one considers the fact that the riots briefly spread to the Continent, things are clearly bad all over. I would think that if there was a political crisis, lots of corruption scandals and multiple cases of police brutality throughout Italy, things would boil over there as they have in Greece.

I find it easier to believe that things haven't coalesced to the point of major unrest in places like Italy yet than it is to believe that Greeks just inherently like to riot.

Um, here's a novel idea: Vote for somebody else.I'm sure the rioters would do just that if given the opportunity, but one of the reasons they're frustrated to the point of rioting is that the corrupt government is hanging on to power with just one vote.

Besides -- and I'm not sure how many Greeks realize this -- changing the government is not an easy solution. The problems in the country have been piling up for awhile now and the leftist opposition parties are no doubt just as inept and corrupt as the ruling rightist party. The Greeks aren't just dissatisfied with the government, they're dissatisfied with the status quo.

Or, failing that, beat up your parents for keeping the same corrupt arseholes in power for generations, for falling for stupid promises, whatever. But don't go torching the cars and shops and livelihoods of working fucking people who, in all likelihood (yay assonance), don't have it any easier than you.I would just go for some old fashioned organized protests and the like, perhaps some civil disobedience, but obviously I think we can all agree that ANARCHY WHOOOOOOOO is the wrong way to go.

Maybe things are different where you're from - Britain, I guess? - but in Germany, when you look at the left wing candidates at student council elections, demonstrators at dry cask nuclear transports or at anti-tuition rallies - in short, any form of left wing activism left here - you're liable to smell more pot than soap.I live in America and I know what you mean. Left-wing politics does attract the unwashed hippies and I understand why people subscribe to that stereotype. But even in the 1960s it wasn't the flower children who were really affecting change and campaigning for leftist causes; it was people from middle class backgrounds.

The Chicago Seven, the men charged with inciting the riots at the 1968 Democratic Convention, were almost all from middle class to upper class backgrounds. Jerry Rubin grew up in the upscale Avondale neighborhood of Cinncinati and later became a successful businessman. David Dellinger was from a wealthy family and attended Yale and Oxford. Rennie Davis was the privileged son of a famous economist. John Froines had a Ph. D from Yale. Lee Weiner was a teacher's assistant at Northwestern.

For every Abbie Hoffman character out there trying to make the Pentagon levitate with meditation (and really he was more about theater than thinking he could actually accomplish stuff like that), you have many more people who dress and behave just like the majority of people from their walk of life but happen to have left-wing beliefs and engage in campaigns for those beliefs.

I should also point out that, just as you seem to have encountered those that give left-wing politics a bad name, living in the Midwest, I have met many people like this who give conservatives and Republicans a bad name:

6rTps4Iau1E

But I don't equate all conservatives with these people. Or even the "cocktail conservative" elites whom you seem to identify with. Left-wingers and right-wingers come from all walks of life, and while rallies and elections may draw out the wingnuts, they shouldn't be taken as representing left-wing or right-wing activists as a whole.

Probably, but then again, centre-right people under 30 tend to come from rich families, and couldn't therefore care less.

Note what I said above. I'm sure there are lots of working class people who identify with the right, if only for being conservative on social issues. Living in a relatively poor part of the United States, the vast majority of the conservatives I know come from working or middle class families and they are very concerned about all the things I mentioned. They certainly aren't relaxing in their living rooms, sipping cognac and saying, "Do you hear that the peasants are revolting?" "I'll say! They stink on ice!"

A figure of speech; but the fact is that they're behaving like bloody children. If somebody throws a tantrum and throws shit at me, it usually doesn't help them make their point, no matter how valid it may be.Clearly rioting isn't the solution, but I also won't equate social unrest with a child being deprived of his candies. A government that works, employment opportunities and accessible education are not luxuries like sweets; the Greek people need these things and deserve them.

Yeah, aren't the guys complaining the same guys who voted for the current government?There is no reason to believe that the people quoted did so; if anything, they sound wholly opposed to the government's policies. But even if they did, there's no reason they should blindly support the government when it clearly isn't working. Conservative policies or not, I know of few conservatives who would not be critical of government corruption and police brutality.

Anyway, the riots continue (http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7013482357)...

Athens, Greece (AHN) - Police in the Greek capital Athens have clashed again with the protestors as the violence enters the third week, sparked by the fatal shooting of a teenager two weeks ago.
The security officers used tear gas to disperse the crowd as the demonstrators were attacking police cars with rocks and Molotov cocktails on late Saturday night.
The incidents of clashes were reported following the memorial service in the capital's Exarchia district, the location were a 15-year-old boy, Alexis Grigoropoulos, was shot dead by police.
The protesters in Athens have been using the National Technical University of Athens, which is also known as the Polytechnic, as a base and reportedly hurled firebombs and rocks at police.
The country's security forces cannot enter the Polytechnic as the university's administrators have not issued an authorization permitting the police to come on the grounds.
The reports said the rising anti-government sentiment in the last two weeks have been fueled with high youth unemployment rate and unpopular government reforms.
At around 4 p.m. local time, around 150 youth protestors attacked the Christmas tree at Syntagma Square in central Athens. They hung rubbish bags from its branches following which fresh clashes broke out as police tried to stop them.
Conservative Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis has refused to resign from his post amid rising demand from the protestors and despite the reports that the policeman accused of shooting Alexandros Grigoropoulos has been charged with murder.
Local reports said police officers have clashed with demonstrators who are protesting against racism and the European Union immigration policies. More instances of violence were reported in the northern city of Thessaloniki.
An American tourist observes that a heavy police presence and rioting people ruins the atmosphere:

5aMZ_zCxuww

[Archangel]

Whiffleball, first let me say that despite the fact that we don't see eye to eye on most issues, it's great to have somebody erudite, eloquent and informed here with whom to have a discussion.


That said...

Obviously if the government is trying to privatize them, they must not be... But it's clear that Greek students are having a hard time getting into universities in Greece and that those that do are finding their degrees of little help in finding a well-paying job. Here in the United States, it's still relatively easily to get into a university (although you'll probably accumulate a lot of debt to do so) and you'll definitely not struggle to find work if you can attain a law or medical degree.

I honestly fail to see how that is the government's fault. You can either blame governments for not creating enough job opportunities for academics and running universities inefficiently, or for trying to privatise them, possibly in order to improve the situation; not both. If state run universities, probably burdened down with obsolete educational and scientific methods, can't prepare young people for the job market, maybe privatising them is the way to go?

If employers are more likely to take people from private or foreign universities, then how are both the fact AND the remedy the government's fault? It can hardly tell law practices and hospitals whom to employ...

All that proves is that the situation in Italy is not as bad as the situation in Greece, although if one considers the fact that the riots briefly spread to the Continent, things are clearly bad all over. I would think that if there was a political crisis, lots of corruption scandals and multiple cases of police brutality throughout Italy, things would boil over there as they have in Greece.

Italy doesn't have political crises, it is a political crisis. The fact that by far the longest running government in post-war Italy (meaning, over half a year) has also been by far the most corrupt (no mean feat itself, looking at the Craxis and Andreottis who have run that place) should tell you everything you need to know. If anybody has any pent up political resentments, it's the Italians.

I find it easier to believe that things haven't coalesced to the point of major unrest in places like Italy yet than it is to believe that Greeks just inherently like to riot.

I dunno; having been to Athens and having lived in Italy, it may have something to do with Italians not wanting to spoil their beautiful cities, while Athens is, let's face it, a ghastly shithole.

Seriously though, there were high school and college kids marching in Milan every weekend, communist rallies, occupied condemned buildings, all that; and yes, someone might have thrown a rock at a cop once in a while; but by and large, Italians are probably too laid back to riot for an entire bleeding month. Or something. I honestly can't pin this shit on anything, but something's in these Greek kids that's missing in a lot of their European peers.

If there's one factor, I'd say that the middle class is far stronger in Italy than in Greece, and that for all the political resentments, the social scales are more balanced. To be poor in Greece must suck serious balls, and I reckon a lot of people are.

I'm sure the rioters would do just that if given the opportunity, but one of the reasons they're frustrated to the point of rioting is that the corrupt government is hanging on to power with just one vote.

See? If more of them had gone to the fucking election booths instead of throwing bricks at people, this wouldn't have even been necessary.

Besides -- and I'm not sure how many Greeks realize this -- changing the government is not an easy solution. The problems in the country have been piling up for awhile now and the leftist opposition parties are no doubt just as inept and corrupt as the ruling rightist party. The Greeks aren't just dissatisfied with the government, they're dissatisfied with the status quo.

One almost infallible rule in politics is that the opposition of idiocy and corruption is never reason and integrity. If one special interest bleeds a country dry for years, the other side doesn't want justice, it wants to get even. Thus, the worse a bunch the ruling party, (usually) the worse the opposition.
Bush begets Pelosi, or something.

I would just go for some old fashioned organized protests and the like, perhaps some civil disobedience, but obviously I think we can all agree that ANARCHY WHOOOOOOOO is the wrong way to go.

That goes without saying.

I live in America and I know what you mean. Left-wing politics does attract the unwashed hippies and I understand why people subscribe to that stereotype. But even in the 1960s it wasn't the flower children who were really affecting change and campaigning for leftist causes; it was people from middle class backgrounds. [...]

Didn't I say before that many of the rock-throwers I knew were middle class rich kids?
But I have to question your reasoning by which a middle/upper class kid can't be a hippie...


I should also point out that, just as you seem to have encountered those that give left-wing politics a bad name, living in the Midwest, I have met many people like this who give conservatives and Republicans a bad name:

6rTps4Iau1E

Al-Jazeera? Anyway...

I don't know if you've missed my comments during the US election campaign, but I (having been around the Midwest quite a bit) am very much aware of the existence of these cretins, and

But I don't equate all conservatives with these people. Or even the "cocktail conservative" elites whom you seem to identify with. Left-wingers and right-wingers come from all walks of life, and while rallies and elections may draw out the wingnuts, they shouldn't be taken as representing left-wing or right-wing activists as a whole.

Well, first of all, there's a difference, especially these days, between the general image of conservatives in America and Europe, which used to be far more similar than it is now - especially after the media blitz of the afore mentioned election campaign, when I think "US conservative", I think - probably unfairly - "hick", while here, conservatives usually are viewed as people who can point out the differences between a Kenian Muslim and a wahhabite educated terrorist.

Note what I said above. I'm sure there are lots of working class people who identify with the right, if only for being conservative on social issues. Living in a relatively poor part of the United States, the vast majority of the conservatives I know come from working or middle class families and they are very concerned about all the things I mentioned. They certainly aren't relaxing in their living rooms, sipping cognac and saying, "Do you hear that the peasants are revolting?" "I'll say! They stink on ice!"

As I said, different cultures. The difference between right and left is pretty much limited to the arenae of politics and economics here, since the consensus on social matters is far broader in Europe than it is in America.
Having had a rather rude awakening from the 19th century, we have realised that two cells aren't a sacred life, that guns kill people, that Jesus has never told anyone to bomb Arabs, and that gays are people like everyone else.
And yes, Phil and Yelram, that last sentence was just for you. <3
These simply aren't issues here, so the divide between right and wro... uh, left is usually along income lines.

Clearly rioting isn't the solution, but I also won't equate social unrest with a child being deprived of his candies. A government that works, employment opportunities and accessible education are not luxuries like sweets; the Greek people need these things and deserve them.

In any matter of importance, be it political, metaphysical etc, my yardstick has always been that if a lot of teenagers do it, chances are, it's stupid.

There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of kids out there every night burning stuff and throwing rocks. If they channeled that energy into, dunno, a lobby or even a political party, they might even get shit done rather than be turned into a negative example.

Our '68 rock throwers did exactly that, and while I despise everything our Green Party stands for, they did get many of the results they advocated (especially as part of the ruling coalition from '98 to '05) the second they put the molotov down and picked up a ballot.

[vicar in a tutu]

I suppose the poverty doesn't help? I mean just how much does a Grecian urn?




Taxi! It's me again...

[Whiffleball]

I honestly fail to see how that is the government's fault.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_greece

Graduates with degrees from private institutions cannot work in the private sector. Three-year degrees (the kind obtained abroad) are not recognized in the country. Doctors and lawyers that come to Greece with degrees from abroad must also go through an additional 6-9 months of testing and qualification before they are allowed to practice in Greece.

Really, it looks like when the leftists were in power, they made it impossible for private universities to exist and rendered private degrees worthless. But privatization still raises the issue of how low income students can afford to get higher education at all. Obviously the solution would be some sort of compromise, which the inept Greek politicians obviously haven't been able to do.

Italy doesn't have political crises, it is a political crisis.

I honestly can't pin this shit on anything, but something's in these Greek kids that's missing in a lot of their European peers.I know that Italian politics is considered a joke and that corruption is rampant there, but it still hasn't reached the point as it has in Greece. Silvio isn't as embroiled in scandal and a general lack of confidence as the Greek PM is; unemployment hasn't reached the Greek level yet; you don't have kids being killed by the cops; and so on. Things are still relatively good although things around the world are getting progressively worse.

If there's one factor, I'd say that the middle class is far stronger in Italy than in Greece, and that for all the political resentments, the social scales are more balanced. To be poor in Greece must suck serious balls, and I reckon a lot of people are.Exactly. There is still social stability; things are still relatively good, as noted above.

The French have a love of culture too, just like the Italians, and I'm sure it's the same with Germans. But that didn't stop the unrest we saw in the 1960s across the globe. It's just about hitting the tipping point. It has in Greece; the perfect storm just hasn't coalesced in Europe, the United States, etc. But as the riots spreading to the Continent proved, we may be heading to that point.

See? If more of them had gone to the fucking election booths instead of throwing bricks at people, this wouldn't have even been necessary.We don't really know that the present rioters did or did not vote in the last election, but I'm sure if they know now how things would turn out, the electoral outcome would have been different. If Americans had known where the United States would be in 2008, I'm sure they wouldn't have voted like they did in 2000 and 2004.

One almost infallible rule in politics is that the opposition of idiocy and corruption is never reason and integrity. If one special interest bleeds a country dry for years, the other side doesn't want justice, it wants to get even. Thus, the worse a bunch the ruling party, (usually) the worse the opposition.
Bush begets Pelosi, or something.Agreed. And Greek politics is certainly quite bad, in this respect. They have a long history of existing under oppressive dictatorships of both the left and the right. They haven't firmly grasped what "clean" politics is.

Didn't I say before that many of the rock-throwers I knew were middle class rich kids?
But I have to question your reasoning by which a middle/upper class kid can't be a hippie...Sure, middle class kids can become hippies, throwing rocks and rioting. My point is that not all middle class kids go that route, that many of them stay good middle class kids like I did, working within the system and engaging in substantive, meaningful action rather than riots or smoking dope.

Al-Jazeera? Anyway...They're not the best, but a lot of media outlets aren't. Considering all it was was a guy interviewing some people at a Palin rally, I didn't consider it on par with their "ISRAEL IS EVIIIIIIIL" stories they do...

Well, first of all, there's a difference, especially these days, between the general image of conservatives in America and Europe, which used to be far more similar than it is now - especially after the media blitz of the afore mentioned election campaign, when I think "US conservative", I think - probably unfairly - "hick", while here, conservatives usually are viewed as people who can point out the differences between a Kenian Muslim and a wahhabite educated terrorist.Fair enough, but whether it be between social liberals/social conservatives or market liberals/democratic socialists, there are going to be idiots on either side. And don't tell me you've overcome your social prejudices; groups like the BNP and Le Pen's lot are still alive and well over there, although admittedly they are by and large recognized by many as being what they are. Jorg Haider may not have made moose chili or shot wolves from a helicopter, but that doesn't make his views any less reactionary or generally backward. ("Meine geschätzten und unterschiedenen Kollegen! Grüße! Türken klatschen, einen Neger klatschen!")

There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of kids out there every night burning stuff and throwing rocks. If they channeled that energy into, dunno, a lobby or even a political party, they might even get shit done rather than be turned into a negative example.

Our '68 rock throwers did exactly that, and while I despise everything our Green Party stands for, they did get many of the results they advocated (especially as part of the ruling coalition from '98 to '05) the second they put the molotov down and picked up a ballot.Again, I agree that the riots are stupid and pointless, but these riots aren't just part of a left-wing political movement.

This is Greek society's gag reflex. They've been fed crap from an incompetent government and an abusive police force and they're puking it all up in a mess of violence and destruction.

Is burning down a Christmas tree or hanging trash bags on it really do anything? Hell, it doesn't even make sense. But until an election is called (and the Greek PM has refused to resign) and reforms take place, the people are going to rail against the status quo until they run out of energy.

[Archangel]

We appear to be arriving at a general consensus here, except two points. First, the only reason Berlusca isn't a walking scandal machine is that he owns Italy's biggest private broadcast and print media as CEO, and controls the public ones as PM - in itself a scandal of no small proportions. Seriously, this guy passes laws declaring anybody who has ever served in high office free from all legal accountability whatsoever for all eternity, and you're telling me that Karamanlis is more corrupt and less trusted than him? What does he do, rob old ladies, rape young boys, and eat babies in broad daylight?

And number two, "distinguished" in this case would be translated "geehrte" or "vornehmste"; your translation means "diverse", which somehow doesn't fit with Haider's views...

[Whiffleball]

We appear to be arriving at a general consensus here, except two points. First, the only reason Berlusca isn't a walking scandal machine is that he owns Italy's biggest private broadcast and print media as CEO, and controls the public ones as PM - in itself a scandal of no small proportions. Seriously, this guy passes laws declaring anybody who has ever served in high office free from all legal accountability whatsoever for all eternity, and you're telling me that Karamanlis is more corrupt and less trusted than him? What does he do, rob old ladies, rape young boys, and eat babies in broad daylight?

Point taken. Perhaps he doesn't have the backlash because (1) he wields more influence and clout than Karamanlis does and thus staves off sedition; (2) Italian society hasn't collapsed to the point where the public aren't sharpening their knives and (3) the left-wing parties are so disorganized and lacking in credibility in Italy they don't form a stalwart opposition like PAOK does in Greece, where they are one seat from power.

(I either named the most prominent Greek left-wing party or the abbreviation of one of the most prominent Greek soccer teams; I'm too lazy to check)

And number two, "distinguished" in this case would be translated "geehrte" or "vornehmste"; your translation means "diverse", which somehow doesn't fit with Haider's views...

Considering I used Babelfish and an online German slang dictionary, I'm surprised I got that much right

[Archangel]

Football.

[Whiffleball]

D'oh!

I meant PASOK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhellenic_Socialist_Movement

[lusonico]

Hey, Sweden's (and Denmark's) government is also so very corrupt and there's so very little opportunity, that's why immigrants and leftist "anti-fascists" are displaying their grief evermore, by attacking police, fire crews, ambulance, etc...

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn122/lusonico/Malm_001.jpghttp://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn122/lusonico/Malm_002.jpg
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/12/malm-intifada.html#readfurther
http://politisktinkorrekt.wordpress.com/2008/12/18/intifadan-manga-och-kanda-vansterhuliganer-afa-bakom-upploppen/

http://snaphanen.dk/upload/2008/08/bilbrand384_aa_146970a.jpg
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/08/country-on-fire.html#readfurther (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/08/country-on-fire.html#readfurther)

Nobody knows why this happens... I think it's "the government"...
http://www.thelocal.se/16452/20081218/

But thinks will get better, as they increase their numbers to counter "the government"...
http://www.thelocal.se/16442/20081218/

Britain is very corrupt, hence:
http://www.bnp.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/nottinghill-carnival.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/v/s5eJKyZ9VMM
http://www.youtube.com/v/ZHsITovGM2c
http://www.youtube.com/v/XV9k87M1X1c


Spain is also so very corrupt, i think if something as simple as someone getting killed sparks a riot, than it's got to be "The government's" fault. The cultural background of those nice law obeying "european" citizens can't have anything to do with it. These guys come from shitty countries where life is cheap, but i think they don't riot as much overthere when someone bites the dust as they do in Europe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiJWLjGnAkM


As immigrants increase their numbers, democracy works on their favor.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3018

MI5 warns, but, who gives a fuck? We'll blame it on "the government" latter.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7078712.stm

[Whiffleball]

omg I don't understand how you guys are considering any other factor in the cause of any act of violence other than immigrants! clearly we are about to be overrun by a horde of brown people

Your YouTube videos and xenophobic blogs have opened my eyes, clearly we need to resettle these subhuman non-Europeans as part of some larger final solution to the immigrant problem

Oleg, as we dress ourselves in paramilitary uniforms, play for us the anthem of "Our Glorious Homeland Is Best in World, All Other Countries are Faggots"

http://s409.photobucket.com/albums/pp172/ACGvB/th_28sc27o.gif

[redsox39]

European Corruption >>>>>>>> US Corruption

[Claydon]

So i have not really been following this story too closely, other than it seems to me that when there is nation wide rioting, it is in the EU (lets not forget france). Furthermore, it seem to me that it is A. The european police forces are pussies, or B. The EU is not the socialist paradise that it claims to be or C. The EU may have significant problems of its own and do well not to finger point at the US with regards to our problems.

[lusonico]

Your YouTube videos and xenophobic blogs have opened my eyes, clearly we need to resettle these subhuman non-Europeans as part of some larger final solution to the immigrant problem


Typical, elude reality with sarcasm. Pin labels in whoever displays anything contrary to your neat pseudo-intelectual analysis of the problem.

here something more to be cynical and sarcastic about.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83966

[taters]

Typical, elude reality with sarcasm. Pin labels in whoever displays anything contrary to your neat pseudo-intelectual analysis of the problem.

here something more to be cynical and sarcastic about.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83966

Dude, quoting the WND in the US is not a good way to prove a point. Its like quoting St0rmFr0nt (with many of the same fans and posters). They arent the most 'respectable' news agency, ranking just below National Review and above St0rmfr0nt and Frontpagemag.

[Archangel]

So i have not really been following this story too closely, other than it seems to me that when there is nation wide rioting, it is in the EU (lets not forget france). Furthermore, it seem to me that it is A. The european police forces are pussies, or B. The EU is not the socialist paradise that it claims to be or C. The EU may have significant problems of its own and do well not to finger point at the US with regards to our problems.

Dude, generalise or talk out of your arse much?

Greece is the fucking armpit of the EU, and well it should be, since today's Greeks are just Turks with a different language and creed. To use them as an example for all of Europe is like equating the entire United States with Mississippi or West Virginia.
So Greek riot squads are pussies, thus every cop in Europe has to be, as well? That's phenomenally daft. Have you ever seen German or British riot squads having a go at hooligans?

The EU claims to be a socialist paradise? The little matter aside that this claim is so factually wrong that I can't even begin to comprehend where you get such idiotic ideas; even if it were so, how do corruption and rioting in Greece have anything to do with what the EU is or isn't? Again, people in Southern hick towns are illiterate racists, so everyone in America is? Man, think about what you're saying.

But the last one takes the cake. We have problems of our own, so we "would do well" not to "point fingers" at you.
I don't know whether you have friends. Let's assume that you do. Do you demand that all facets their lives have to be perfect before they - as friends - are allowed to bring forward constructive criticism? Dude.

Imagine: "Man, you've had enough; let me call you a cab home before you puke all over yourself." -"Shut the fuck up, mother fucker, your wife is ugly, so you can't tell me shit!"

It's retarded in that context, and it's retarded in international relations, too.

Because some arsehole teenagers in a shit country riot against a shit government, no European is allowed to say that the credit crunch originated in America, or that the Iraq War was a fucking crime? And you would dictate such terms to us? Come on, man, I thought you were smarter than such Palinesque drivel.

[Whiffleball]

So i have not really been following this story too closely, other than it seems to me that when there is nation wide rioting, it is in the EU (lets not forget france). Furthermore, it seem to me that it is A. The european police forces are pussies, or B. The EU is not the socialist paradise that it claims to be or C. The EU may have significant problems of its own and do well not to finger point at the US with regards to our problems.

Pfffftttt, the more shitty a place is, the more the people have to lose, the more likely it is you're going to see some serious social unrest. As Arch says, Greece is the fucking dregs compared to France, Germany, the UK, etc. Really, comparing Greece to France just because they're both in Europe is like comparing the US and Mexico just because they're both in North America

European police are pussies? You do realize that one of the causes of the unrest is police brutality, right? A lot of the rioting is still going on because the universities have to invite the cops on to their property, which is dumb, but hey it's Greece

The EU has never been and never will be a socialist paradise. It started out as the European Economic Community, which was like NAFTA in that it broke down borders and created an economic bloc. A lot of socialist parties (including a sizable amount of the UK's Labour Party in the 1970s) were opposed to the EEC because they felt it robbed them of their sovereignty and was unfair to their specific situations in regards to politics, economics, etc. -- just like it's said about the EU today. Besides, the socialist parties in the big EU countries have either watered themselves down to social liberal capitalists or are just politically irrelevant

I know you don't actually care about contributing to threads, you just wander in and stir things up, but if you're going to troll, at least troll smartly

Typical, elude reality with sarcasm. Pin labels in whoever displays anything contrary to your neat pseudo-intelectual analysis of the problem.

here something more to be cynical and sarcastic about.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83966

I gave you the benefit of the doubt before, but if you're really still harping on immigration after everything that's been discussed in this thread, feeding you with serious responses is a waste of time. The Greek riots have deep roots but the fact that you're still going on with your xenophobia and Islamophobia shows how much of a narrow-minded bigot you are

Besides, you don't need to be an "intelectual" to do a little research and find out that the Brussels Journal blog is linked with Vlaams Belang, a far right xenophobic party in Belgium, the equivalent of the British National Party, Le Pen's Front National, etc.

This is one of those times where taters is right, your shit belongs on Stormfront

But hey, it's cool dude, I'm sure before the immigrants came your society was rooted deeply in conservative tradition, not unlike a migratory pack of hominid ape men who defecate in a certain midden one season only to return the next to harvest its bounty of grubs and tubers. I'm sure your ancient philosophers have made repeated field trips to ossuaries, ancient sites of rites and sacrifice, and that dirt-floored basement where the little girl from the news spent the last month of her life.

Good luck with crazy nationalism and thinking your hovels constitute the Third Rome and have fun scapegoating minorities for your problems, that has never failed anyone before

wTAA-k2SV6s

XFQXcv1k9OM

THE PUNCHLINE IS THAT HE IS LITERALLY A BLACK RIDER, BUT THE OLD WOMAN BECOMES A "BLACK RIDER", WHICH IS A GERMAN TERM FOR SOMEONE WHO TRIES TO DODGE FARES

OH GERMANS, YOU ARE MASTERS OF COMEDY

[Archangel]

I blame a LOT of shit in Europe on Islam and Muslim immigrants, as everyone here knows, but I fail to see how they are connected to this.

[Morfin]

Ohh, they just ARE!

[Archangel]

There's also a difference between Muslim immigrants acting like jackasses because they're Muslims, and acting like jackasses because they are despondent and desperate. The French riots, for example, are a case of the latter.

[Claydon]

calm the fuck down arch, as I clearly indicated I have not been following the story very much, or this thread. Untwist your panties.

[lusonico]

I gave you the benefit of the doubt before,

Oh, how superior of you...

but if you're really still harping on immigration after everything that's been discussed in this thread, feeding you with serious responses is a waste of time. The Greek riots have deep roots but the fact that you're still going on with your xenophobia and Islamophobia shows how much of a narrow-minded bigot you are

1. You "serious" responses are disconnected from reality intelectualized crap.

2. The social problems of Greece and the West have deep roots indeed, they are rooted in the decadence of values and rationality, placed aside to make way to asinine marxist ideas about socialism and multiculturalism. Immigration(colonization) is the factor that makes it irreversible.

3. Nothing i presented is xenophobia and islamophobia. Phobias are irrational fears. There is nothing irrational about concern of Islam or third world immigration flood.


Besides, you don't need to be an "intelectual" to do a little research and find out that the Brussels Journal blog is linked with Vlaams Belang, a far right xenophobic party in Belgium, the equivalent of the British National Party, Le Pen's Front National, etc.

LOL, you gotta be a regular at LittleGreenFootballs:D. I don't care about alleged associations or whatever you cook in you mind, if the news reported are real, then the fact that a link to them appears at Brussels Journal is irrelevant. But of course, you marxists pick anything as long you don't have to comment on the facts.

This is one of those times where taters is right, your shit belongs on Stormfront

My shit, your shit, who gives a shit?:rolleyes:

But hey, it's cool dude, I'm sure before the immigrants came your society was rooted deeply in conservative tradition, not unlike a migratory pack of hominid ape men who defecate in a certain midden one season only to return the next to harvest its bounty of grubs and tubers.

It's nice to see you drag yourself trough mud so you can stick those designations on my speech.:cool:


Good luck with crazy nationalism and thinking your hovels constitute the Third Rome and have fun scapegoating minorities for your problems, that has never failed anyone before


I don't scape goat "minorities", only the OWLs like you who promote their "right" to come as they please.
Those "minorities" by the way are ceasing to be as time passes.

Here's the problem. When a civilization starts decaying, failing to preserve itself trough positive cultural reiforcement by it's citizens, giving up to self satisfaction and individualism (promoted as freedom) then the citizens become unaware of what makes their culture sucessfull as opposed to others, they see no reason to make sure everybody entering will conform to their culture, because themselves can't see why some would anymore. The youth is acultured, and only a idiot would claim a previleged part of the population as college students would be the first to "complain" about lack of jobs when they are not even graduated and not really in need of one. They are endoctrinated to transform their teenage rebelion against their fathers in anarchist political opposition to the government.

Here, more "Xenophobia" .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFuEgnRuhD8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqHU7QESJ_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzzRhv0x9fc

What happens is most non-europeans people entering Europe are, naturally, non whites, so the immigrants bring a different race as well a different culture. Then if someone shows concern about how immigrants show how much they're NOT receptive to live along side others and forget about associating regarding race, or even if that someone shows it with news videos, well, then what a jackass sees is nothing more than xenophobia... And racism. You can't criticize the culture and actions of anyone non-white in Europe, because that's been deemed heresy of the worst kind. That's the context where i oppose to multiracialism in Europe, because it drags along a vile ideological attack on the european natives, sported in the front row by OWLs no less...

People like you, are incapable of the most basic perceptions. You rant about how xenophobobic europeans are, but don't realize these third world immigrants cultures are allot more xenophobic and ethnocentric, and they bring that to Europe. The politically correct usefull idiots, like yourself, always find a way to overlook this and blame it on things like poverty, or racism of the european hosts.

I look the news, i see reports about brilliant college students turned down on jobs because they are "too white", see british parlamentary stating "whites need not apply", i see alot of non discussible insanity, who is brushed under the carpet as idiots like you take the stand to lecture us about how xenophobic we are. Screw that...

[taters]

^ It kinda sounds like you are pressing for a 'keep europe white' campaign.


Not only is that morally and ethically wrong (racism, zenophobia and ethnocentricism are accepted as bad things), but In a globalized capitolist and ever changing world, impossible and detrimental.

[Morfin]

I get the feeling that lusonico's lament is more for the parochialism that has been eroding due to the "one world" economy both from modernisation and the Internet. Gradually, the differences in Europeans will be less-defined, more like the Polish or Chinese areas within American large cities: smaller concentrations, but overall, there is one economic society. The Common Market, followed by the loose borders in the EU mean that too many people can move wherever they want. Further, the telephone, and now the Internet allow people of like background and interests can maintain those interests even if they move halfway around the world.

Face it. The fact that the Internet, technology, and easy, cheap air travel, all are eroding cultural borders and differences. This will not be an easy thing as one culture tries to maintain or inflict its culture and values on another (i.e., Muslims moving into various European countries), but they are fighting a losing battle as well, and maybe moreso.

[lusonico]

^ It kinda sounds like you are pressing for a 'keep europe white' campaign.


Not only is that morally and ethically wrong (racism, zenophobia and ethnocentricism are accepted as bad things), but In a globalized capitolist and ever changing world, impossible and detrimental.

Look, i haven't been raised to think race matters, no suasticas hanging in the living room here. I'm the son of a construction worker, and never, ever, i did discuss racial themes with my father, just as i haven't discussed any sexual themes.

My racial awareness only comes from awareness of the dual criteria guiding all the self rightous folks lecturing. I'm white and i can't escape my skin colour anymore than the next non-white guy. If a racist action coming from a white is twice as exposed and pushed through the media and when it comes from someone else it's just a random act of violence, explained by poverty or whatever, then that autism to the existence of racism coming from any other people than just whites, will and does in fact generate a stream, a tendency, doctrinated to children from early age, to associate racism to exclusively white folks. This happens, over and over, and it's real. Then some people notice, reacts, points some serious shit and gets "racist" label on the spot.

I haven't seen, and nobody can point a single example of population of a particular racial background becoming minority and not getting seriously targeted for all kind of discrimination and everyday life. Marxists keep saying "we can work things out, keep the faith,will get things right next time, you just have to try harder to be tolerant", meanwhile european countries become one failed multicultural experience after another. In France in the year 2007, more than 32.000 cars were set on fire, an average of 102 by day. If you consider the United states has 4 times more population, that would be like 128.000 cars incinerated by criminals in one year. This is and indicator of the social turmoil going on, and you should not see this shit in a country with one of the highest living standards and generous welfare. It's not poverty fueled, it's a cultural fueled.

I would like to believe there is wisdom to make multiracial societies work, that there isn't some fucked up self-loathing ideologies eating away common sense and objective reasoning, but i can't, so the least we could do is not make more of those experiments on countries fairly homogeneous societies, while you can't make the ones that exist function. No need for violence or harmfull discrimination, just responsible immigration policies.

If you still think i'm "morally and ethically wrong" consider the simple example of the indians or native-americans as some call them. They don't give a fuck you want to move to their nation, if you're not indian, and bonded by blood to the tribe, you're not a national, PERIOD. Consider a indian nation like the comanche. They got blood quantum laws who discriminate in a way that would spark some NATO bombings if some european country would tought of that. Yet, i don't see an outcry coming from media or public opinion about how indians try to preserve the unique characteristics of their people. Instead there is a consensus about how ridicule a blue eye scandinavian would look if tryed to immigrate to the comanche nation. No media would say a scandinavian could just become comanche because he wants to, or commits to their traditions. The same way if i went to Japan and demanded to get japanese nationality because i could represent what the japanese people are just as well as the natives there, i would look an idiot and no person on the mainstream would feel that the japanese refusal was a awfull unethical inmoral act.

Seems well accepted that the comanche nation would not survive, not in their true nature, if they allowed for a constant flux of outside people into their land (they are indeed fading, in spite of all, should they stop resisting just because of that?). It is clear and realistic to say that in spite of the best intentions of cultural marxists, a steady influx of cultural and racially different (because race and culture go hand in hand most of the times) would wipe out the comanche real fast. It's unrealistic to say it would not be so.

So...

How demented needs one to be, to think Europe is invulnerable to that? How come it has been decreted that Europe become the laboratory for multiculturalism, when NO ONE ELSE ACTS RECIPROCALLY? No multicultural allowed in arab/muslim countries, none whatsoever. In Sub-saharian Africa things are no better. I could live with multiculturalism if the reality didn't blow in my face each time i look at the news. But Europe is property of all who wants a piece. And we, europeans are the guinea pigs of all this, with no place to go to avoid it and with every single initiative to oppose this declared "unethical/unmoral"

Where are dweling in numbers, and racial violence associated with immigrants rises up, and it's all "our fault".

How can anyone sane not be called racist? No way in this world.


Face it. The fact that the Internet, technology, and easy, cheap air travel, all are eroding cultural borders and differences. This will not be an easy thing as one culture tries to maintain or inflict its culture and values on another (i.e., Muslims moving into various European countries), but they are fighting a losing battle as well, and maybe moreso.


If it was just aspects of culture, like gastronomy and endumentary, i would not care (much) but when eroding cultural borders means objective aspects like women's rights, safety, etc, get a turn to the worse, than some other demeanor than that you display (resistance is futile) is in order. There are plenty examples of appeasement and submission to foreign cultures in european soil.
The problem with europeans is that they have become so good disregarding race they also disregard those who don't disregard race, hence becoming unable to maintain the cultures where race is disregarded. In the name of "tolerance" they don't want exclude anyone, even the intolerants!!!:eek:

[The GWD]

no suasticas hanging in the living room here

Is that like some kind of a symbol that honors Tobasco?

[taters]

My racial awareness only comes from awareness of the dual criteria guiding all the self rightous folks lecturing. I'm white and i can't escape my skin colour anymore than the next non-white guy. If a racist action coming from a white is twice as exposed and pushed through the media and when it comes from someone else it's just a random act of violence, explained by poverty or whatever, then that autism to the existence of racism coming from any other people than just whites, will and does in fact generate a stream, a tendency, doctrinated to children from early age, to associate racism to exclusively white folks. This happens, over and over, and it's real. Then some people notice, reacts, points some serious shit and gets "racist" label on the spot.


You dont think there is a 'reason' why people tend to see 'racism' for shit like that? Its not indoctrination, its not the media, its the facts and the long long long looooooong history of white racism, at least in America.

I wasnt aware Portugal is a very diverse place, from the way you are describing it sounds like you are talking about America. But I guess Portugal does have a longer history with the subject than probably any other western european nation.

You mentioned 'multiucultural experiments', and I kinda laughed.They werent experiements, they were efforts to attain cheap labor from non european. Lets not beat around the bush here, western europe never imported non europeans for their benefit, they did it because those people would work cheaper. Same as here in America with Mexican labor.

(PS - by the way you were wrong about native americans. In most cases, If the tribe or any member of the tribe accepts you, you became a member of their nation, regardless of blood. Such happened in countless accounts along the frontier. it wasnt until the 'indian roll' censuses instated by the US that blood or just looks could disqualify a person, and even then it was the states that made and enforced that policy, not the natives)

Call it karma for your regions colonialist 'we should take over the world' mentality, that you now have deal with the shitstorms you guys created when you went and screwed up the cultures of countless different peoples on the planet.

On diversity, european history is filled with diversity. You dont think that land you are standing on in portugal has always belonged to the portugese do you? Or the people who had it before them? Or before that? Europe is constantly mixed and mashed, ans has been for the past 10k years. Celtic peoples move to one area and divide into multiple cultures, germanic peoples move into those areas and mix with them, while doing the same. Greeks, Egyptians and Phonecians set up colonies and mix themselves in. The greeks conquer and mix people (alexanderian policy demanding mixing with the locals), Romans conquer larger areas and do the same, the moors come, they leave, etc etc etc

Dreaming of a 'pure region', both racially and culturally is just that, a dream. Not reality, never has been.

Plus, as morfin said, its foolish to even try to press against change and diversity. If you look at human history, the people that resist change and diversification are usually the ones that eventually get rolled over by it. The people that embrace it are the ones whos contributions are passed on, genetically and culturally.

Dont believe me? Ask the Zoroastrians, or the Briton Celts, or the Beduins, or the Romans, or the Zulu, or the Japanese Empire etc etc

[Morfin]

Masked gunmen attack riot police in Athens

ATHENS, Greece (CNN) -- Gunmen fired automatic weapons at Greek riot police in Athens Monday, seriously injuring a policeman in an attack police said looked like the work of one of the country's leading Marxist militant groups.

Police in Athens have been caught in running battles with protesters on and off for a month.

Police issued statements saying the attack bore the hallmarks of Revolutionary Struggle, a Marxist group that claimed responsibility for an attack on the U.S. Embassy in Greece in 2007. No one has claimed responsibility for Monday's attack, which followed weeks of violent protests sparked by the fatal police shooting of a teenager last month.

But police said one gun that was fired Monday was used in an April 2007 attack on a police station. Revolutionary Struggle claimed responsibility for that attack.

A second gun from Monday's incident was fired in a December 23 attack on a police riot van, police said. That attack was claimed by a previously unknown group calling itself Popular Action. No one was injured in that incident, which police considered a warning, rather than an attempt to kill.

Police based their analysis on ballistics tests. They do not have the guns in custody.

At least two masked gunmen sprayed more than 20 shots at the riot unit Monday, hitting a 21-year-old officer in the chest and groin while he was guarding the Culture Ministry in central Athens, authorities said. The wounded policeman, identified as Diamandis Matzounis, was in critical condition after being rushed to a hospital, health ministry officials said.

None of the other 20 police on board the bus stationed near the state building were injured in the pre-dawn attack.

Authorities said they had cordoned off the area around the site of the attack to collect evidence. At least 72 people were detained during the initial search for suspects.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attack, which came a day before the one-month anniversary of the fatal shooting of Alexis Grigoropoulos, 15, by a police officer in Athens.

Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis visited the wounded officer in Erythros Stavros Hospital on Monday.

"The police are hard working co-citizens. They are public servants, assigned with the task to work for everyone. The bullets fired against them hit the Republic and society as a whole," Karamanlis said in a statement released after his visit.

"Those who attacked Diamandis Matzounis targeted democracy and order," Interior Minister Prokopis Pavlopoulos said after visiting the wounded officer. "They will soon realize that democracy is strong and our society is safeguarded."

The attack came two weeks after gunmen using an automatic rifle fired on a riot police van in Athens. No one was injured in that attack, but authorities were placed on high alert.

"This attack was unfortunately something that we had been expecting," said Stavros Mavroidakos, a representative of Greece's National Elite Guard, a specially trained police unit. Link (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/05/greece.riot.police.violence/index.html)

[redsox39]

Dude, quoting the WND in the US is not a good way to prove a point. Its like quoting St0rmFr0nt (with many of the same fans and posters). They arent the most 'respectable' news agency, ranking just below National Review and above St0rmfr0nt and Frontpagemag.

Yeah, it TOTALLY didn't happen then.

try 'Google'ing "Paulette Locklear" and maybe one of the 50 websites that come up will be "Tater's Approved".

[taters]

Yeah, it TOTALLY didn't happen then.

try 'Google'ing "Paulette Locklear" and maybe one of the 50 websites that come up will be "Tater's Approved".

WND = Frontpage mag = WSJ post Murdoch takeover = Vdare = Washington Times = National Alliance . All borderline extremist e-rags. Drudge report has more and more been falling in as well.

Politico is an example of a somewhat reasonable righty e-rag. WSJ was before Murdoch. Volokh Conspiracy is a great one. National Review falls both ways at times.

On the left, I would argue the same for a lot of Dem Underground and Moveon.