WORLD: Israel Threatens Offensive As Hamas Truce Ends [Archive]

Whiffleball

12-21-2008, 08:33 AM

After Hamas ended its six month truce, Israel is planning a major offensive after rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j7l3KiexAC7Uga-LzMRWlezNX-pQ)

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JERUSALEM (AFP) — Israel threatened on Sunday to launch a major offensive against the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip as violence simmered around the impoverished territory days after the end of a truce with the Islamists.

Senior officials said after the weekly cabinet meeting that Israel was preparing a "response" to continuing rocket strikes from the besieged Palestinian coastal strip.

"We are preparing our response to the Hamas threat, with the decision yet to be taken on the timing and the scale," Amos Gilad, a senior adviser to Defence Secretary Ehud Barak, told public radio after ministers debated whether to launch a major ground incursion.

"We have to prepare for it carefully, like for a surgical operation," he said.

Earlier, a senior Israeli defence official told AFP that a major military confrontation in the territory was unavoidable after militants again targeted southern Israel with rockets.

"It is obvious where we are heading in Gaza. The situation is intolerable but clear. The army's considerations are the only thing that is deciding when events will unfold," the defence official said on condition of anonymity.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who leads the centrist Kadima party that heads the governing coalition, vowed to topple Hamas if she becomes prime minister after snap elections called for February.

"Israel must topple the Hamas rule in Gaza and a government under my command will do just that," Israeli media quoted her as telling a Kadima meeting.

"Israel must react when it is fired upon, must re-establish its force of dissuasion and stop the rockets," she said.

Tensions around Gaza have risen steadily since Friday, when Hamas said it would not renew a six-month truce with Israel.

Since then, Gaza militants have launched several dozen rockets, causing some damage and slightly wounding a handful of civilians, and Israel has retaliated with air strikes, killing one militant and wounding three other Palestinians.

Two Israeli ministers who have campaigned for weeks for the army to oust the Islamist masters of Gaza renewed their calls for tougher action.

"The second Israel comes under fire we should fire back intensively to reduce their capabilities," said Trade and Industry Minister Eli Yishai of the ultra-Orthodox Shas party.

Deputy Prime Minister Haim Ramon insisted that it was now time for the Israeli army to end the control over Gaza that Hamas has enjoyed since ousting forces loyal to Western-backed Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas in June last year.

"What we want is to end the Hamas regime in Gaza," Ramon told public radio.

Observers say the government is wary of launching a major offensive ahead of the early parliamentary elections called for February for fear that it would not be able to score a decisive victory against the Islamists.

"The politicians aren't in any rush to reach election day with an incomplete military operation and only partial results hanging around their necks," wrote military analyst Alex Fishman in top-selling daily Yediot Aharonot.

"And worse than that, to be accused of having ordered a military operation just to improve their chances at the ballot box," he said.

Israel responded to violence that erupted around Gaza in early November by tightening its blockade of the territory and halting deliveries of humanitarian aid and other basic supplies.

The aid-dependent territory of some 1.5 million people has been subject to an Israeli blockade and repeated raids since 2006, when Hamas won Palestinian parliamentary elections and later joined in a deadly cross-border raid in which militants captured an Israeli soldier, who remains hostage to this day.

taters

12-21-2008, 10:57 PM

They are afriad their unwavering religious and economic support from the US is in danger. As such, they will push their envelope.

Considering the israelis have pissed off just about every other nation on the planet except for the US, and US influence on world affairs will decline (but not at all disappear), they should be working the diplomacy angle harder. Their neighbors are all very close to Russia, Their financiers and armers are broke and busy elsewhere, and Europe is tired of dealing with them.

Le Goat

12-21-2008, 11:03 PM

What's the object of Jewish football?

To get the quarter back

Le Goat

12-21-2008, 11:03 PM

I'm here all week folks

Archangel

12-21-2008, 11:07 PM

Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan are very close to Russia? News to me.
As a matter of fact, interestingly enough, the Turks and the Israelis get on like a house on fire, co-operating on everything from military manoeuvres to water distribution (which, in short, means "keep the Arabs from the water, and vice versa"): Let's not forget that Turkey is a) a NATO member, b) the most populous nation in the area, and c) has a very modern Western military, which - perversely enough - is the chief pro-secular force in the country, its ranks being staunchly kemalist.

Le Goat

12-21-2008, 11:12 PM

What's the difference between a jew and a canoe?

A canoe tips.

Le Goat

12-21-2008, 11:12 PM

tip your waiter!

taters

12-21-2008, 11:20 PM

Talk about not leaving character...

Claydon

12-22-2008, 01:15 AM

Hmmm, so the arabs are launching shit at the jews, and the jews are going to bring the smack down. this feels like 1949-2007 all over again.

Whiffleball

12-22-2008, 11:33 AM

Hamas is taking part in a truce although the potential for more conflict is still ripe (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4BL18G20081222)

GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian armed groups in Gaza observed a 24-hour halt to rocket fire against Israel at the request of Egyptian mediators, a senior official of the ruling Islamist Hamas group said on Monday.

Ayman Taha told Reuters: "Hamas and other factions agreed in order to give a chance to the Egyptian mediation and to show that the problem was always on the Israeli side."

Shortly before the brief truce was set to expire, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh telephoned Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan to ask that he urge Israel to lift its blockade on Gaza and to halt its military operations in the coastal strip.

Taher al-Nono, a spokesman for Haniyeh, said Erdogan had assured Haniyeh he would raise these issues in his talks with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert in Ankara later on Monday.

Taha said Hamas might consider a long truce if Israel were to lift an embargo on the impoverished territory, including permission to import an aid shipment from Egypt.

"If a new (truce) offer were made which met our demands, then we would be willing to study it," Taha said.

Israel and Egypt were skeptical about the Hamas declaration of a hold-fire, though it seemed to be observed, with only two rockets and a mortar reported to have been fired on Monday from Gaza, and a rocket and four mortars shot on Sunday night.

A six-month truce expired on Friday, raising fears of a wider conflict and sparking debate among Israeli leaders vying in a February 10 election about whether Israel should launch a Gaza offensive or seek to extend the ceasefire.

A "COMFORTABLE" TRUCE

Isaac Herzog, a minister in Olmert's security cabinet, told Israel Radio: "I, like many of my colleagues, am ready to consider continuing the calm, on terms that are comfortable for Israel."

Israel would likely limit any broader assault on Gaza to air strikes targeting Hamas leaders in a bid to avoid casualties to its troops, or to Palestinians, which could draw international condemnation.

But any deadly rocket barrages from Gaza could prompt Israel to escalate its response. The latest rocket strikes from Gaza have caused few injuries.

Taha said Hamas reprisals could include suicide bombings.

Hamas's 1988 founding charter calls for the destruction of the Jewish state but in the past the faction has offered to suspend hostilities as part of a long-term accord.

During the truce launched in June that was brokered by Egypt, Hamas accused Israel of reneging on undertakings to open crossings into Gaza, a lifeline of humanitarian and commercial goods for 1.5 million Palestinians.

Israel blamed security threats for the closures, and many Israelis criticized the truce's failure to advance negotiations for the return of an Israeli soldier held in Gaza since 2006.

The ceasefire began unraveling in early November with an Israeli raid to blow up a tunnel. Five militants died.

Since the truce ended, dozens of short-range rockets and mortar bombs have been fired into Israel from Gaza. Most of the rocket fire was claimed by Islamic Jihad, a Palestinian militant group with loose links to Hamas. Over the weekend, an Israeli air strike killed one Palestinian militant.
And this little snippet on The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/22/middleeast-israelandthepalestinians) Web site made me chortle:

Benjamin Netanyahu, hoping become Israel's next prime minister, has never been one to knowingly undersell his political thoughts. Here he is in Paris (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g-UXLUfC4ULRGd28uzYhtipqx6IAD955C1C80), declaring that Iranis the "greatest historical challenge" the world faces:

"We have never had a situation in the history of the world in which a radical regime with a retrograde ideology and apparently on the use of force will get access to the weapons of mass death."
There's something odd about an Israeli Jew of all people saying Iran is the most radical, right-wing dictatorship to have a love for genocide.

Morfin

12-22-2008, 11:49 AM

I admit I know little about this. But I think I know where Hamas could start with making a goodwill gesture here:

Hamas's 1988 founding charter calls for the destruction of the Jewish state but in the past the faction has offered to suspend hostilities as part of a long-term accord.

I am by no means taking a side in this matter, but... you know, as a gesture toward mediation, maybe you could take out the destruction of Israel as a cornerstone principle.

redsox39

12-22-2008, 11:50 AM

Oh Oh oh! I have an idea! Israel, you should give them what they want, asking nothing in return except for a cease-fire!

That should totally work!

BIG PIZZLE

12-22-2008, 11:54 AM

Or here's a better idea, stop using your military to kill civilians.

IdiotBrain

12-22-2008, 11:56 AM

Glass them.

Morfin

12-22-2008, 11:58 AM

The whole frickin' area. Been nothing but trouble since Israel's founding.

IdiotBrain

12-22-2008, 12:00 PM

Nah, Israel is entertaining. Glass the strip.

Archangel

12-22-2008, 12:07 PM

The whole frickin' area. Been nothing but trouble since 4000BC.

Fixed.

redsox39

12-22-2008, 12:08 PM

Lobbing Shells into residential areas and blowing up buses doesn't kill civilians, Israeli troops do!

(New Bumper Sticker!)

Nosebuckle

12-22-2008, 12:36 PM

Or here's a better idea, stop using your military to kill civilians.

Right, as opposed to using your paramilitary front (terrorist) groups instead.

taters

12-22-2008, 11:01 PM

if this were 1870, and the parties involved were not israel and the palestinians, but the United States and the native americans, or Australia and the Aborigines, or Northern Ireland and the Catholics or Northwestern Spain and the Basques, would any of you who vilify the palestinians think differently?

If it were natives, who were forced off their lands, then giving 'reservations' on their own former lands, were advocating 'death to the states' and sweeping the europeans back into the ocean, would their stance be more acceptable?

If you have a group of alien people who are moved to your lands by another group of alien (alien as in foreign, not space) people, would you welcome them? Especially when their society segregates you from them and takes everything you have, gases your children in the name of 'fighting terrorists' and calls you such (a terrorist) for defending the lands your people have had for more than 1000 years?

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:05 PM

taters

12-22-2008, 11:10 PM

Irregardless of who was there first, the jews won several wars over these territories, why should they give them back. Arabs had some of the best soviet hardware ever built and they lost miserably against a much smaller israeli force. When you win the war(s) you get to dictate the terms. Typical of arabs not to understand little things like reality, gravity, science, diplomacy, and well...the list goes on and on.

Irregardless is not a word. Yes, even I know that.

So whomever wins a war for the terrority shoudl get it, right?

Then why villify the palestinians for fighting them to get it back? Even more, why give the Israelis an unfair advantage by economically supporting them in their war? Was the original war the decider for who 'gets to keep it indefinitely', or are we picking sides for another reason?

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:16 PM

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:19 PM

oh and tater.....shut the fuck up

Main Entry:ir·re·gard·less http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?irrega01.wav=irregardless'))Pronunciation : \ˌir-i-ˈgärd-ləs\ Function:adverb Etymology:probably blend of irrespective and regardlessDate:circa 1912 nonstandard : regardless (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/regardless)
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless

mongo

12-22-2008, 11:19 PM

i think hamas has outgrown it's usefulness.

taters

12-22-2008, 11:21 PM

If the arabs care so deeply for their palestinian brothers, why have they not created a small section for them say in egypt, saudi arabia, iraq, iran, oman, yemen, libya, etc etc etc.

Because they are poor and have limited resources? Because they know if they accept them into their country, they further legitimize the israelis right to essentially move wherever they want and instantenously 'own' the land they are on, regardless of the people who live on it.

How about they get new 'bantustans....er muslimstans' (I hope you recognize that terminology from history) that work as 'homelands' for the original peoples of the region, while the israelis expand and take more and more 'living space' for themselves.

If Russia/Canada/China/Mexico whoever invaded the US, and stated 'they own the land now' and moved a large group of their citizens to our lands, would we 'welcome them' and allow them to subjugate us willingly? Would we simply move to another land that wasnt invaded? Or would we fight to get what was ours back?

(Asking that noting that Mexico essentially took the second option mentioned above when we took the south west from them).

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:25 PM

my god taters...you want to bring up the mexico US war...... mexico lost, we told them to sign off on it or else. That was 180 years ago......they got a clue (you clearly have not). Mexico, like the US, and the rest of the fucking worlds minus the arabs/muslims have zero concept of war, and what the consequences of losing means.

mongo

12-22-2008, 11:25 PM

Because they are poor and have limited resources?

you're a fucking idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Dhabi_(Emirate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Dhabi_%28Emirate))
Abu Dhabi boasts the worlds highest absolute and per-capita level of sovereign wealth funds, calculated at USD 1,000,000.00 per inhabitant.

taters

12-22-2008, 11:27 PM

Their 'getting the clue' sounds a hell of a lot like 'ours is the naturally superior (fill in the blank). Thats a light quote of hitler, by the way. I saw you missed the aparthied analogy with bantustans earlier. Since you dont know history, Im not shocked you have such an opinion on the israel palestine conflict.

Those who dont remember history...

my god taters...you want to bring up the mexico US war...... mexico lost, we told them to sign off on it or else. That was 180 years ago......they got a clue (you clearly have not). Mexico, like the US, and the rest of the fucking worlds minus the arabs/muslims have zero concept of war, and what the consequences of losing means.

I wont be lured off topic this time. Answer the hypothetical or recognize the legitimacy of the analogy.

If Russia/Canada/China/Mexico whoever invaded the US, and stated 'they own the land now' and moved a large group of their citizens to our lands, would we 'welcome them' and allow them to subjugate us willingly? Would we simply move to another land that wasnt invaded? Or would we fight to get what was ours back?

Nice try though.

TIm - I fail to see where Abu Dubia was even mentioned in this thread. Other than by you.

Really, a guy with your sig calling me a fucking idiot? Youre a god damned carl sagan of social thought...or an alabaster retard.

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:28 PM

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:29 PM

you're a fucking idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Dhabi_(Emirate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Dhabi_%28Emirate))

and yet, the arab world has high employment, and they basically import slave labor from south east asia and pakistan.

mongo

12-22-2008, 11:29 PM

mongo

12-22-2008, 11:33 PM

and yet, the arab world has high employment, and they basically import slave labor from south east asia and pakistan.

yup. lulz.

17% of the population of the emirate was made up of UAE nationals. Approximately 85% of the expatriate population (and 71% of the emirate's total population) was Asian, chiefly Indian (51%), Pakistani (15%), Bangladeshi (10%) and others (10%). About 3% of the total population of Dubai was categorized as "Western"

also, what a fucking sausage fest.

According to the census conducted by the Statistics Center of Dubai, the population of the emirate was 1,422,000 as of 2006, which included 1,073,000 males and 349,000 females.

taters

12-22-2008, 11:35 PM

The arab world is not poor, their wealth in concentrated in 'royal' familes, they sell hundreds of billions of dollars in oil every year and yet their countries produce ABSOLUTELY nothing. They are poor due to their inability to create functional societies following the collapse of the ottoman empire and colonialism. Your 'victimhood' bullshit permeates everything you see around you, you are one sorry fuck.

Im noting you (and Tim) are refusing to acknoledge the appeasement issue. Hmm, I wonder why that is? (Anyone who knows you can guess why)

Anyways, what they do with their money is not a concern. Answer the fucking question, retard. The more you dodge it, the more you prove its validity

If Russia/Canada/China/Mexico whoever invaded the US, and stated 'they own the land now' and moved a large group of their citizens to our lands, would we 'welcome them' and allow them to subjugate us willingly? Would we simply move to another land that wasnt invaded? Or would we fight to get what was ours back?

Answer the simple question.

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:35 PM

i don't think it's "inability" to create, i think it's more like "lack of desire" to create.

It is easier for them to keep the populace in poverty and illiterate so that they can create massive gold plated palaces and the tallest sky scrapers. I mean god forbid you should want to use the greatest resource the world has ever known to produce something. I am not into socialism, but somehow Norway has all that oil and they have an extremely stable society that takes care of its people, educates them, etc etc. The middle east? well they are driving fucking sports cars in the deserts, the 50th in line to thrown has 15 mercedes and gets a monthly allowance of $500,000 while the rest of the country eats fucking dirt. When the people scream that they are sick of living like tater believes he lives, their leaders cry out "Its the JEWS AND THE AMERICANS!"

mongo

12-22-2008, 11:37 PM

It is easier for them to keep the populace in poverty and illiterate so that they can create massive gold plated palaces and the tallest sky scrapers. I mean god forbid you should want to use the greatest resource the world has ever known to produce something. I am not into socialism, but somehow Norway has all that oil and they have an extremely stable society that takes care of its people, educates them, etc etc. The middle east? well they are driving fucking sports cars in the deserts, the 50th in line to thrown has 15 mercedes and gets a monthly allowance of $500,000 while the rest of the country eats fucking dirt. When the people scream that they are sick of living like tater believes he lives, their leaders cry out "Its the JEWS AND THE AMERICANS!"

the ultimate hate fueling mechanism.

taters

12-22-2008, 11:38 PM

the ultimate hate fueling mechanism.

Says the guy with racist overtones in his sig...

How did you get that glass house up so fast?

Claydon Answer the simple question man, or do you know the answer, and that it proves your logic wrong?

mongo

12-22-2008, 11:39 PM

Says the guy with racist overtones in his sig...

How did you get that glass house up so fast?

i paid some ******* $2 a day to build it for me. all they ever said was "thank ya massa".

Pox

12-22-2008, 11:43 PM

This conversation really is a moot point, since there really is no reason that people should move out of property in the occupied territories that they have owned for generations just so some hebe from brooklyn can move in.

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:46 PM

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:47 PM

mongo

12-22-2008, 11:47 PM

what came first, chicken or egg?

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:48 PM

the egg, which was then enslaved by the chicken to care for its embryos (in the biology book by taters)

Pox

12-22-2008, 11:49 PM

I can see that you and the Rev. Jackson play golf.

Like they would let him into my country club

Claydon

12-22-2008, 11:51 PM

Like they would let him into my country club

spot on!

mongo

12-22-2008, 11:59 PM

i know it's a little off topic, but fuck, the population increase for dubai over the last 180 years is fucking nuts.

1822 1,200
1900 10,000
1930 20,000
1940 38,000
1954 20,000
1960 40,000
1968 58,971
1975 183,000
1985 370,800
1995 674,000
2005 1,204,000

Claydon

12-23-2008, 12:03 AM

is that actual population growth, or is that all their imported labor that then gets dumped into the trash barrel with the sheik is done with his 50,000 square foot gold and chrome plated home?

mongo

12-23-2008, 12:05 AM

wiki doesn't say. but i'm guessing that includes the slaves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai

Claydon

12-23-2008, 12:09 AM

I am willing to be a month's pay that is primarily from migrant workers. They love their thai/phillipino hookers.

i mean....WHO DOESN'T!? Am I right?!

taters

12-23-2008, 12:14 AM

Taters....the jews moved people out of gaza, by force. The IDF had to fucking pull people kicking and screaming so as to allow the palestinians into that area. What happened? Hammas, back by the Iranians started to launch more rockets from the area. The arab world has broken countless cease fires and peace treaites with the jews. The arabs rolled their dice with the soviets back in the day, they all lost. I am not going into a hypothetical with you because the US, Mexico or Canada would not have a land war (at least not now).

They would not have a land war? WTF do you think the mexican american war, or the war of 1812 were about? Were we fighting for ideology, or defending/attacking for land?

ANSWER the fucking question man!

Stop dodging and running around it. If we were the palestinians and the israelis were any other nation, would we not be doing what they are (and take history into context). Yes or No.

nOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

IdiotBrain

12-23-2008, 01:03 AM

Yes, taters.... that whole entire area is all Muslim land, throughout history it always has been, there was NEVER a significant amount of Jews there... until the horrible Satan that is America killed that brilliant Hitler fellow and moved those fucking evil blood-sucking Jews into the middle east.

Do your countrymen a favor and have yourself sterilized.

taters

12-23-2008, 01:36 AM

Yes, taters.... that whole entire area is all Muslim land, throughout history it always has been, there was NEVER a significant amount of Jews there... .

Impeccable logic, 'Idiot' brain! Well gee golly, because there were jews there 2000 years ago, and a scant population till modern times, that gives them the right to scoot the people who have lived there for the past 1500 years out of the way and take back over!

And since native americans have lived on these lands, maybe we should just give it all back to them! Perhaps all people of spanish descent should move to spain...after all by that logic, they all have a right to take over their ancestors homelands, regardless of the fact that there are still fucking people living there!

While we are at it, since the roman empire ruled europe, they should all just give up their lands to the vatican (the modern continuance of the Roman hierarchy).

After all, if someone HAD lived anywhere, that gives them the right to return and take that place over, and subjugate the people still there, regardless of how long its been since they had left. Gee, that makes SO much sense.

Idiot, your name fits you perfectly!

Claydon

12-23-2008, 01:39 AM

and tater, you might as well add "douchebag faggot" to your name.

taters

12-23-2008, 01:41 AM

and tater, you might as well add "douchebag faggot" to your name.

Excellent contribution to the thread! Fairly standard, you closet case internet stalker.

And you still havent answered the simple question, which shows beyond a doubt you realize your own biased logic towards the subject.

IdiotBrain

12-23-2008, 09:40 AM

Archangel

12-23-2008, 11:21 AM

East Prussia had been German land for damn near a thousand years. The Teutonic Knights owned it, and Immanuel Kant was from Königsberg - today's Kalinigrad.

Then we fought a war. We lost. Somebody took it from us, and us, having lost, shut the fuck up about it. We don't bomb discotheques and school buses to get it back; same with Gdansk, Alsace-Lorraine, South Tyrol etc; hell, we even accepted our people being divided into two states.
BECAUSE WE BLEEDING LOST. We shut the hell up like men are supposed to when they lose.

Yes, the difference was that we started the war that we lost, but then again, how many wars have the Arabs fought against Israel? Four? Yeah, they started all but one of those; how many did they win? You lose a war, you lose land. That's the fucking point of wars in the first place.

Historical arguments don't count for shit; if they did, France would have to give Straßburg/"Strasbourg" back RIGHT NOW. America and Canada would have to give back their entire territory to the Indians - same with Australia and New Zealand with the Aborigines and the Maori, respectively.
If you want it back, get a bunch of tanks together, and go for it... wait, the Arabs tried that, repeatedly, and got their arses kicked by a numerically far smaller force, again and again.

Israel fought for that land, and she got it, and she defended it, many times over. For all intents and purposes, that land is hers, something that the vast majority of the international community - even some Muslim countries - have recognised. I am not defending all of her actions, I'm certainly not defending her treatment of the Palestinians, and I think that many of her responses to certain attacks lack all proportion. But as has been pointed out, many Arab states are bloody rich, and the Kingdom certainly isn't starved for empty desert: Yet, for all their rhetoric about their Palestinian brothers, they won't ever move a finger to give them their own land - because as long as they don't have one, they can't be considered refugees or asylum seekers, and thus be used as what amounts to slave labour. Which they are, in many Arab countries. Far better to give them RPGs and Semtex, and use their plight to distract their own citizens from the fact that they are governed by plutocratic jackasses who offend Islam with everything they do.

Again, any American who gets into a tizzy about how Israel is "stolen land" should lead by example and give his home to the next Indian he sees.

Whiffleball

12-23-2008, 11:43 AM

Taters, those lands have changed hands MANY times over the centuries, it's one of the most disputed areas in the entire world. Always has been. The Jews occupy ONE small area in the entire region, and Muslims refuse to concede that to them, even though the Jews gladly let peaceful Muslims live amongst them.

You seem to be ignoring that thousands of Palestinians occupied that "one small area" and were displaced as a result. It wouldn't be the end of the world if we gave Oklahoma or Kansas to a group of people as their own, but you'd have to imagine that the people living in those places would be pretty pissed off

There's also the issue of a bunch of sites sacred to Islam in that "one small area", which isn't really an issue unless you're an Islamic fundamentalist, but the sad fact there are many of those in the Arab world

I'm not saying that the Israelis should be driven into the Mediterranean or that returning to the situation pre-1948 is even feasible, but you have to acknowledge that the Palestinian people are a distinct community and deserve some self-determination.

East Prussia had been German land for damn near a thousand years. The Teutonic Knights owned it, and Immanuel Kant was from Königsberg - today's Kalinigrad.

Then we fought a war. We lost. Somebody took it from us, and us, having lost, shut the fuck up about it. We don't bomb discotheques and school buses to get it back; same with Gdansk, Alsace-Lorraine, South Tyrol etc; hell, we even accepted our people being divided into two states.
BECAUSE WE BLEEDING LOST. We shut the hell up like men are supposed to when they lose.

I see your point but I don't think it's necessarily fair to equate the loss of East Prussia to Russia to what happened to Palestine. You're talking about the loss of one region compared to a sizable chunk of what used to be Palestine

Palestine also didn't do what Nazi Germany did; Israel didn't invade to stop a belligerent nation and then partition the country with her allies. A colonial power tried to help out the Jews, a bunch of hardcore Zionists waged a terrorist campaign and then the UK decided "Fuck this" and then you had Israel. The Palestinians were pissed off and their Arab neighbors agreed and ba-da-bing you had the first war and every conflict ever since

Yeah, it wasn't the first time a native population got screwed the fuck over, but that doesn't make it right. You can't really say, "It sucks, but there's a precedent for it, we just have to accept it" because then you can justify anything that's happened and carried over in the past regardless of the morality

Besides, we all know what happens when you impose unfair terms on a people. The Germans were fucking pissed at Versailles and look what happened

The honest-to-God situation involves that term which is anathema to all extremists, which is "compromise", which means some sort of return to the post-1948 borders with security assurances and an opening of relations

Unfortunately, as long as you have groups like Hamas (which has one of its stated goals the destruction of Israel) and Zionist nationalists in Likud (which has a charter that says there will be no Palestinian state West of the River Jordan) and the other ultra-religious parties, compromise is how you say a little difficult

Oh, and this made us white people square with the Native Americans

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/12/14/sports/14heisman.xlarge4.jpg

When Israel gives a Palestinian their equivalent of the Heisman, it will do much to end the Arab-Israel conflict

Archangel

12-23-2008, 12:07 PM

There's also the issue of a bunch of sites sacred to Islam in that "one small area", which isn't really an issue unless you're an Islamic fundamentalist, but the sad fact there are many of those in the Arab world

I disagree. Let's remember that Jerusalem's name in Arabic, al-Aqsa, means "the remote sacred". There are three cities considered "holy" by Christianity, and trust me, if there were an Arab tank within 100 miles of Cologne, I'd join the next guerilla group.

I'm not a fundamentalist, I'm not a fanatic, but you don't fuck with people's holy sites, especially not those in their home towns. It just fucking sucks that God had to send Mohammed on his al-Isra to fucking Jerusalem, of all places.

I'm not saying that the Israelis should be driven into the Mediterranean or that returning to the situation pre-1948 is even feasible, but you have to acknowledge that the Palestinian people are a distinct community and deserve some self-determination.

I do. Most definitely. I also acknowledge that as long as they try to make that come about by blowing up innocent people, they can go fuck themselves. MLK didn't bring about a paradigm shift by throwing molotovs and bombing shopping malls. Come to think of it, almost nobody did. Euskadi is still Spanish, Ulster still belongs to the Crown, there are still US soldiers in the Kingdom, etc.

I see your point but I don't think it's necessarily fair to equate the loss of East Prussia to Russia to what happened to Palestine. You're talking about the loss of one region compared to a sizable chunk of what used to be Palestine

That's why I mentioned the others.

http://p3.focus.de/img/gen/Z/Y/HBZYN7ps_Pxgen_r_220xA.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7e/WestGermany_74_venues.png/300px-WestGermany_74_venues.png

That looks like a pretty sizable chunk to me.

Palestine also didn't do what Nazi Germany did; Israel didn't invade to stop a belligerent nation and then partition the country with her allies.

Again, I said so myself.

Yes, the difference was that we started the war that we lost, but then again, how many wars have the Arabs fought against Israel? Four? Yeah, they started all but one of those; how many did they win? You lose a war, you lose land. That's the fucking point of wars in the first place.

A colonial power tried to help out the Jews, a bunch of hardcore Zionists waged a terrorist campaign and then the UK decided "Fuck this" and then you had Israel. The Palestinians were pissed off and their Arab neighbors agreed and ba-da-bing you had the first war and every conflict ever since

Just answer me one question: After being nearly exterminated, what were Europe's Jews to do? Move back into their old ghettoes? Oops, those had been razed to the ground. Move back next door to the guys who sold them out? Well, that entire neighbourhood was a smoking crater.

It was a problematic decision by both Britain and the Jews, no doubt; but God damn it, I understand it.

Yeah, it wasn't the first time a native population got screwed the fuck over, but that doesn't make it right. You can't really say, "It sucks, but there's a precedent for it, we just have to accept it" because then you can justify anything that's happened and carried over in the past regardless of the morality

Germans have coined a word for this.

Realpolitik.

Besides, we all know what happens when you impose unfair terms on a people. The Germans were fucking pissed at Versailles and look what happened

Absolutely true: Now imagine how Germany would look if we had engaged in guerilla warfare and terrorism after our defeats.

The honest-to-God situation involves that term which is anathema to all extremists, which is "compromise", which means some sort of return to the post-1948 borders with security assurances and an opening of relations

Unfortunately, as long as you have groups like Hamas (which has one of its stated goals the destruction of Israel) and Zionist nationalists in Likud (which has a charter that says there will be no Palestinian state West of the River Jordan) and the other ultra-religious parties, compromise is how you say a little difficult

I couldn't agree more; It IS a monumental cluster-fuck. But the thing is that whatever the Palestinians do, they do it against the forces of a sovereign country with an elected parliament and a strong military.
So as long as they try to achieve their goals through violence, they're going to lose. Again: People like MLK and Gandhi achieved far more than the dozens of firebrands who came before them ever did.

Le Goat

12-23-2008, 12:24 PM

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b178/chknfaqr/1215108941735.jpg

Archangel

12-23-2008, 12:29 PM

France, Indonesia, and Bangladesh are missing on that map.

Morfin

12-23-2008, 12:30 PM

Lighten up, Francis. Just go with it.

Le Goat

12-23-2008, 12:30 PM

France, Indonesia, and Bangladesh are missing on that map.

To be fair, France isn't even on my maps.

Archangel

12-23-2008, 12:34 PM

Also, the "Berlin" province of Turkey appears to be missing.

Gary_Busey

12-23-2008, 12:37 PM

If only they were really gone.

taters

12-23-2008, 01:33 PM

Claydon

12-23-2008, 01:50 PM

That is wonderful tater....(slow clap)

would you like me to post the 500 stories of the fucking muslims blowing themselves up in commuter buses, pizza shops, and dropping rockets on communal farms?

IdiotBrain

12-23-2008, 03:00 PM

How the fuck can you look at that map of the middle East and talk about proportion?

Palestinians don't want peace, they want the same thing Hitler did.
http://factsofisrael.com/en/images/articles/palestinian-nazis.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/nazi.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/arabracismandislamicjihad/hezbollah_hamas_nazi_salute.jpg

The Palestinians recruit CHILDREN to strap bombs to their bodies, they pay them as little as 25$ to suicide bomb Israelis... be they soldiers or simply riding a bus.

During the so-called "cease fire" between Hamas and Israel, Hamas fired rockets indiscriminately into Israeli cities DAILY. I know, it was happening while I was there.

When I was in old Jerusalem, specifically in the area of the "Via De La Rosa", every shop I passed was Muslim owned and operated. These people use them same blue ID's as my girl and her family.

Look at Haifa, Be'er Sheva, Wadi Ara, Abu Gosh, Taibe and Rahat for example. I met many friendly Muslims who seemed to have no problem with my eating in their restaraunt, or perusing their shops.

Now, there are those Muslims with seperate colored ID's, orange instead of blue... who live in the occupied areas. But you have to understand that these people aren't Israeli citizens. The occupied areas are actually a Palestinian state governed by Hamas. So... you tell me why any Israeli in their right mind would think to allow people from an openly hostile and agressive government, who have shown the capability to strap bombs to children in order to target civilians should be allowed indiscriminant access to otherwise peaceful cities.

Israelis, [yes even arab Israelis] DO NOT go into the occupied areas for fear of torture and death. While citizens of the occupied areas are not only allowed to go into Israel, with checkpoints along the way as a precautionary measure, but actually work in Israel, amongst Israeli citizens.

In Israel there are hospitals run and operated by Israeli arabs, frequented by Muslims, Christians AND Jews. Don't forget the arab lawyers, bankers, dentists, accountants and pharmacists. Peaceful Muslims share the same opportunities in Israel that Jews and Christians do.

These Palestinians make the choice to use violence against women and children, as well as soldiers. Even other neighboring Arab countries who support these Palestinians through weapons and money WILL NOT ACCEPT THEM AS CITIZENS. They will not accept these so-called refugees into their countries. What does that tell you?

taters

12-24-2008, 02:37 AM

^ Funny you post that about palestinians-

Jewish Neo Nazis - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6985808.stm

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44105000/jpg/_44105378_bbcsalute.jpg

http://makkah.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/hebron_graffiti_5.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/177/389310363_a55513cd43.jpg?v=0

http://bp0.blogger.com/_HuV_NHMdPd0/RgHrNhQbciI/AAAAAAAAAFE/LdOKwpc_OW4/s320/blue+not+racism.jpg

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966014.html - Study shows increase in racism by Israelis.

The report lists Arab citizens killed by police, soldiers, security guards and Jewish civilians over the past seven years. It notes that only one Jewish citizen, of Ethiopian origin, was killed under similar circumstances during this period. Indictments were issued in only seven cases, the report states. In two cases, the assailants were found not guilty, and the State Prosecutor appealed the verdict in one of these cases. In another case, the indictment was dropped because the shooter was deemed mentally unfit to stand trial.

Most cases of Arab citizens injured by Jews were not fully investigated, and the attackers were not indicted in most cases, according to the report.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932384.html

Among Jewish respondents, 55 percent support the idea that the state should encourage Arab emigration from Israel and 78 percent oppose the inclusion of Arab political parties in the government. According to a Haifa University study, 74 percent of Jewish youths in Israel think that Arabs are "unclean."

The ACRI says that bills introduced in the Knesset contribute to delegitimize the country's Arab citizens, such as ones that would link the right to vote and receive state allowances to military or national service.

They also include bills that require ministers and MKs to swear allegiance to a Jewish state and those that set aside 13 percent of all state lands owned by the Jewish National Fund for Jews only.

IdiotBrain

12-24-2008, 07:22 AM

There are bad things that happen on both sides. The Jewish neo nazi movement is one of the saddest things I've heard of in a long time.

Out of everything I brought up, you refuted nothing.

You lose again taters... though I suppose you're used to it.

Yelram

12-24-2008, 08:02 AM

^ Funny you post that about palestinians-

Jewish Neo Nazis - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6985808.stm

Israeli police say they have broken up a gang of neo-Nazis who are accused of carrying out attacks on foreigners, gay people and religious Jews. The eight suspects, aged 16-21, are all Israeli citizens from the former Soviet Union. They were arrested a month ago, but the news only

Some guys from russia who hate foreigners, gay people and religious Jews, yeah sounds like the "extremist" Jews. You are so fucking brainwashed with your narratives, you cant see whats going on in front of you. The money that the world has thrown at Israel only serves to benefit the entire area. People that are hostile to the government, are obviously a threat, and treated as such. The ones who arent, get a chance to be successful and use Israeli society to further their own dreams. You always use your backasswords moral relativism to somehow make the aggressor always look like the victim. Some black guys hits a cop, and the cops beat him up, and somehow its the "Evil racist gestapo". Palestinians bomb civilians, and somehow they are justified, but the Israeli army protecting its land is somehow not fair? I just dont get how your fucking mind could be so warped.

Claydon

12-24-2008, 01:42 PM

Yelram, you forget, taters went to the "Victimhood Society University".

Das Kahlua

12-24-2008, 04:10 PM

I see your point but I don't think it's necessarily fair to equate the loss of East Prussia to Russia to what happened to Palestine. You're talking about the loss of one region compared to a sizable chunk of what used to be Palestine

Palestine also didn't do what Nazi Germany did; Israel didn't invade to stop a belligerent nation and then partition the country with her allies. A colonial power tried to help out the Jews, a bunch of hardcore Zionists waged a terrorist campaign and then the UK decided "Fuck this" and then you had Israel. The Palestinians were pissed off and their Arab neighbors agreed and ba-da-bing you had the first war and every conflict ever since

Yeah, it wasn't the first time a native population got screwed the fuck over, but that doesn't make it right. You can't really say, "It sucks, but there's a precedent for it, we just have to accept it" because then you can justify anything that's happened and carried over in the past regardless of the morality

Besides, we all know what happens when you impose unfair terms on a people. The Germans were fucking pissed at Versailles and look what happened

There are a couple major flaws in your reasoning.

-First, there was no 'Palestine' as it as currently known at the time of the partition; the lands in question, namely the West Bank and Gaza Strip were controlled by Jordan and Egypt--if anyone has a gripe against Israel, it'd potentially be them, but rather than instigating anything with Israel as of late, they have been key members in trying to achieve peace.

-Second, the land that was 'given' to the Jews were lands that were largely inhabited by Jews who had been moving back to the Middle East for decades before 1947, and culminating with a massive migration of Jews from Europe to escape Hitler and his ilk. More lands were captured and controlled by Israel through the various wars against its neighbors, to be used as a buffer zone against future Arab invasion forces. This behavior is entirely in keeping with normal actions of practically any other nation on Earth.

-Finally, it would take someone hopelessly biased or incredibly short-sighted to honestly believe that the Palestinians, or really any other Arab group in the region, were 'screwed over' by the Jews, as you claim. The Arabs combined forces on multiple occasions and attacked Israel, believing that they could run the Jews into the ocean--they failed, despite all their attempts, yet they still haven't rested. At every opportunity, they Jews have attempted to make peace, all the while making slews of promises of returned land, return rights and the such, while only being rewarded by the Arabs walking away from the negotiating table and launching a new series of attacks against Israel.

As long as they keep launching rockets into Israeli cities, and sending women with Downs syndrome into Tel Aviv to be suicide bombers, the Palestinians and Hamas deserve nothing other than another wave of hellfire missiles headed right for them. They have tried to hold Israel hostage, and it has never worked, and they then turn around and try to play the victim card. It's insufferable douchebags with a persecution complex like tater who keep this shit alive; Tater, if you empathize with Hamas so closely, how about you fly over there and let them know how much you support their cause--I'm sure they'll love to hear it.

taters

12-24-2008, 06:48 PM

There are bad things that happen on both sides. The Jewish neo nazi movement is one of the saddest things I've heard of in a long time.

When its Arabs, its "they are fucking evil", when its jews "well its ok because it happens on both sides."

Hypocra-FAIL

Archangel

12-25-2008, 07:45 AM

Rubbish.

When Jewish settlers walk into a mosque and machine gun people praying in peace, then that is "fucking evil", as well, and the entire world condemns it - including the State of Israel who, if you will recall, dragged many of those very settlers kicking and screaming out of their kibbutzim.
Now, Israel does a lot of bad shit, as well, but they do not indiscriminately blow up school buses, discotheques and cafés for the express purpose of murdering civilians. The Arabs do. There is a qualitative difference between certain actions there, and not to recognise that simple fact shows an overabundance of ideology untempered by common sense.

As for your "people moving into your house" analogy, let's spin it a little further. Imagine that after it happens, you muster all your resources and energies into kicking them out again. And after trying for decades, you're crippled, you're broke, your house is in shambles, and they're still there.
Does it make it right? No. But should you learn to live with it at some point? Probably.

taters

12-26-2008, 03:03 AM

As for your "people moving into your house" analogy, let's spin it a little further. Imagine that after it happens, you muster all your resources and energies into kicking them out again. And after trying for decades, you're crippled, you're broke, your house is in shambles, and they're still there.
Does it make it right? No. But should you learn to live with it at some point? Probably.

Fair enough. It Depends. In the eyes of nations, decades isnt that long. Ask the Northern Irish, or (better examples) the Filipino Moros and the Spanish Basques, or (much better example) the Greeks who fought the turks to get their long conquered nation back.

But, yes at some point the cause is lost, but thats for the eyes of the beholder.

Yelram - Im not going to argue racism (a concept you have previously admitted to accept, endorse and practice) with you again. Think what you will, we all already know your ideals of 'racial supremacy' and 'the inferiority of some races to others'.

(See everyone, the infamous one, taters, can walk away from a fruitless argument too)

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 06:52 AM

I LOVE ISRAEL!

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli warplanes destroyed dozens of security compounds across Hamas-ruled Gaza on Saturday in unprecedented waves of air strikes, killing at least 145 people and wounding more than 310 in the single deadliest day in Gaza fighting in recent memory, Palestinian medical officials said.
The strikes came in response to renewed rocket fire from Gaza on Israeli border towns. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said "the operation will last as long as necessary" but it was not clear if it would include a ground offensive.
Asked if Hamas political leaders might be targeted next, military spokeswoman Maj. Avital Leibovitch said "Any Hamas target is a target."
Gaza militants fired several Grad-type Katyusha rockets at southern Israel in response to the strikes, the military said. One hit in the border community of Netivot, killing a woman and wounding four people, Israel's rescue service reported.
The strikes caused widespread panic and confusion as black clouds of smoke rose above Gaza. Some of the missiles struck in densely populated areas as children were leaving school and women rushed into the streets frantically looking for their children.
In Gaza City's main security compound, the bodies of more than a dozen uniformed security officers lay on the ground. One survivor raised his index finger in a show of Muslim faith, uttering a prayer. The Gaza police chief was among those killed.
It wasn't immediately clear how many civilian casualties there were.
Said Masri sat in the middle of a Gaza City street, close to a security compound, alternately slapping his face and covering his head with dust from the bombed-out building. "My son is gone, my son is gone," wailed Masri, 57.
The shopkeeper said he sent his son out to purchase cigarettes minutes before the airstrikes began and now could not find him. "May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn," Masri moaned.
Hamas leaders threatened revenge attacks and Israel told its civilians near Gaza to take cover as militants began retaliating with rockets. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who has governed from the West Bank since Hamas seized control of Gaza last year, called for restraint and Egypt opened its border with Gaza to allow ambulances to drive out some of the wounded.
Hamas officials said all of Gaza's security compounds were destroyed. Israel Army Radio said at least 40 targets were hit.
Barak said the coming period "won't be easy and won't be short for the communities in the south" of Israel.
Israel declared a state of emergency in Israeli communities within a 12-mile range of Gaza, putting the area on a war footing.
Hamas said it would take revenge not just with rocket attacks but by sending suicide bombers into Israel. "Hamas will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood," said spokesman Fawzi Barhoum, speaking on a Gaza radio station.
The first round of air strikes came just before noon, and several more waves followed.
Civilians rushed to the targeted areas, trying to move the wounded in their cars to hospitals.
Television footage showed Gaza City hospitals crowded with people, including civilians rushing in wounded people in cars, vans and ambulances.
"We are treating people on the floor, in the corridors. We have no more space. We don't know who is here and what the priority is to treat," said one doctor who hung up the phone before identifying himself at Shifa Hospital, Gaza's main treatment center.
Moawiya Hassanain, a Gaza Health Ministry official, said at least 145 people were killed and more than 310 wounded.
Frantic civilians drove wounded people to hospitals in their cars.
In the West Bank, Hamas' rival Abbas condemned "this aggression" and called for restraint, according to an aide, Nabil Abu Rdeneh. Abbas, who has ruled only the West Bank since Islamic Hamas militants seized power in Gaza in June 2007, was in contact with Arab leaders and his West Bank Cabinet convened an emergency session.
Israel has targeted Gaza in the past but the number of simultaneous attacks was unprecedented.
Israel left Gaza in 2005 after a 38-year occupation but the withdrawal did not lead to better relations with Palestinians in the territory as Israeli officials had hoped. Instead, the evacuation was followed by a sharp rise in militant attacks on Israeli border communities that on several occasions provoked harsh Israeli military reprisals.
The last, in late February and early March of this year, spurred both sides to agree to a truce that was to have lasted six months but began unraveling in early November.
With 200 mortars and rockets raining down on Israel since the truce expired a week ago, and 3,000 since the beginning of the year, pressure had been mounting in Israel for the military to crush militants.
Israeli leaders have been voicing strong threats in recent days and consider Hamas to be primarily responsible for the situation.

Aegis

12-27-2008, 07:07 AM

That's probably not so good.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 07:43 AM

Killing mooooslims is always good.

Morfin

12-27-2008, 09:14 AM

The shopkeeper said he sent his son out to purchase cigarettes minutes before the airstrikes began and now could not find him. "May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn," Masri moaned.

Smoking is dangerous to your health.

What? Too soon?

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 10:33 AM

The only good muslim is one that's smokin'

Claydon

12-27-2008, 11:02 AM

Israel is perfectly justified in doing this, since their cities keep getting pelted with cheap iranian knock offs of shitty chinese rockets.

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 11:08 AM

Yay, let's kill innocent civilians.

Claydon

12-27-2008, 11:09 AM

Yay, let's kill innocent civilians.

Yah, the innocent civilians that launch rockets from their roof tops.

don't give me the hooker with a heart of fucking gold story here, hamas loves to use civilian areas to conduct their operations.

Morfin

12-27-2008, 11:11 AM

Israel is perfectly justified in doing this, since their cities keep getting pelted with cheap iranian knock offs of shitty chinese rockets.

So, following your logic, Israel's response is because they feel they have been disrespected: Israel's pissed that the Palestinians are not using quality top-of-the-line rockets, but are saving those for the "good" enemy, while when bombing Israel, the Palestinians only bring out the cheap knock offs. Interesting theory. Out of the box thinking. (<3)

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 11:11 AM

Your mother is a hooker.

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 11:26 AM

http://i39.tinypic.com/72xahj.jpg

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 11:26 AM

http://i42.tinypic.com/29wrbyf.jpg

Claydon

12-27-2008, 11:33 AM

would you like me to display the destruction from the 3000 rockets and mortars that have been lobbed into israel?

Or the pictures of the destruction from their suicide bombers? I mean, we can go on all day about this.

Claydon

12-27-2008, 11:34 AM

So, following your logic, Israel's response is because they feel they have been disrespected: Israel's pissed that the Palestinians are not using quality top-of-the-line rockets, but are saving those for the "good" enemy, while when bombing Israel, the Palestinians only bring out the cheap knock offs. Interesting theory. Out of the box thinking. (<3)

haha...

but seriously, israel gave in and extracted the jews from the gaza strip and what has happened. it is not just another launching point for hammas weaponary.

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 11:36 AM

Merry christmas and happy new year!!!
These scumbags israelians really know how to endear themselves to the rest of the world...

taters

12-27-2008, 11:39 AM

haha...

but seriously, israel gave in and extracted the jews from the gaza strip and what has happened. it is not just another launching point for hammas weaponary.

"We moved a scant few of OUR people from YOUR lands, though we are keeping most of it and killing all those who contest...why arent you thanking us!"

This will be lost on Claydon, but everyone else, look up the creation of the 'bantustans' in South Africa, or the early days of the Bureau of Indian Affairs here in the US for a good parrallel (we moved a scant few dirt farmers off their lands by force, as a way to relegate the Natives to small shitty lands by force, and expected a 'thank you' for it.).

Claydon

12-27-2008, 11:45 AM

"We moved a scant few of OUR people from YOUR lands, though we are keeping most of it and killing all those who contest...why arent you thanking us!"

This will be lost on Claydon, but everyone else, look up the creation of the 'bantustans' in South Africa, or the early days of the Bureau of Indian Affairs here in the US for a good parrallel (we moved a scant few dirt farmers off their lands by force, as a way to relegate the Natives to small shitty lands by force, and expected a 'thank you' for it.).

taters, anything you post is worthless. those lands were lost when the israelis beat the fuck out of the egyptians, syrians, and jordanians.................twice.

Claydon

12-27-2008, 11:45 AM

Merry christmas and happy new year!!!
These scumbags israelians really know how to endear themselves to the rest of the world...

not unlike the french.

taters

12-27-2008, 11:53 AM

taters, anything you post is worthless. those lands were lost when the israelis beat the fuck out of the egyptians, syrians, and jordanians.................twice.

"If we can take over your lands and kill off your people, we deserve your lands!" -then?

Adolph Hitler would be proud of you. 7 million jews gypsies and dissidents, as well as 100 million dead soldiers would disagree.

Your life and mothers womb for conceiving you are garbage.

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 11:53 AM

not unlike the french.

Or like the us, if you really want to go with one of your fantastically witty pun....

Claydon

12-27-2008, 11:55 AM

Or like the us, if you really want to go with one of your fantastically witty pun....

pun? no sir!

the french calling out a people for defending themselves is the very pinnacle of irony.

Claydon

12-27-2008, 11:55 AM

.....words....im a black racist....words...........

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 11:58 AM

pun? no sir!

the french calling out a people for defending themselves is the very pinnacle of irony.

There is a huge difference between defence and agression, moron. Not that you would know anything about it since that protecting your homemade marmelade from being stolen by a dying squirrel would be out of your league anyway.

Claydon

12-27-2008, 12:02 PM

There is a huge difference between defence and agression, moron. Not that you would know anything about it since that protecting your homemade marmelade from being stolen by a dying squirrel would be out of your league anyway.

So, 3000 rockets and mortars over the last 10-12 months from hamas? This is what, the loving and beautiful way they say we love you? Israel has been surprisingly restrained over the last year. It seems to me that Israel adhered to the cease fire whereas hamas, did not.

Again, as I indicated, the french calling out a nation for defending themselves is full of irony.

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 12:05 PM

So, 3000 rockets and mortars over the last 10-12 months from hamas? This is what, the loving and beautiful way they say we love you? Israel has been surprisingly restrained over the last year. It seems to me that Israel adhered to the cease fire whereas hamas, did not.

Listen, both sides are acting like idiots, this is no news. What pisses me off are the people ALWAYS taking side with Israel, never seeing the mistakes (bloody, murderous mistakes btw) that they are doing.

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 12:07 PM

Again, as I indicated, the french calling out a nation for defending themselves is full of irony.

As opposed to a claydon playing the tough guy, I guess. :rolleyes:

Morfin

12-27-2008, 12:07 PM

Well, he does have to scare off the dying squirrel.

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 12:11 PM

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 12:14 PM

Let's see the jew damage from the "3000" rockets.

This also is something that I fucking hate to see/hear. There is a difference between Jews and Israelians you know.

Claydon

12-27-2008, 12:16 PM

Listen, both sides are acting like idiots, this is no news. What pisses me off are the people ALWAYS taking side with Israel, never seeing the mistakes (bloody, murderous mistakes btw) that they are doing.

actually i do not approve of all of the actions of the jews. there is some real obvious land grabs that they did when they were building that wall to stop the suicide bombers. Also, the fucking jewish settlers that set up camps deep within the so called palestinian territories are just fucking nightmares. Israel dropping a shit ton of guided munitions because hamas has been pelting them for the last year is perfectly justified and reasonable.

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 12:24 PM

This also is something that I fucking hate to see/hear. There is a difference between Jews and Israelians you know.

Yeah, where they live.

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 12:25 PM

Still waiting for the death and destruction to jews. Last I heard, there was 1 dead.

taters

12-27-2008, 12:30 PM

Beware, if you talk too much logic and common sense or deny the conservative american white christian races inherent superiority, Claydon will sick teh stawker dawgs on you.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 12:46 PM

who the fuck deleted my posts

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 12:47 PM

Someone who understands the bullshit tangent that is your life.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 12:49 PM

Someone who understands the bullshit tangent that is your life.

Oh you mean posting shit that's relevant to the story and a counter to what you posted earlier?

hmm...

b6a_1230389616

591_1230387302

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 12:51 PM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli warplanes retaliating for rocket fire from the Gaza Strip pounded dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory in unprecedented waves of airstrikes Saturday, killing more than 200 people and wounding nearly 400 in the single bloodiest day of fighting in years.
Most of those killed were security men, but an unknown number of civilians were also among the dead. Hamas said all of its security installations were hit, threatened to resume suicide attacks, and sent at least 70 rockets and mortar shells crashing into Israeli border communities, according to the Israeli military. One Israeli was killed and at least six people were hurt.
With so many wounded, the Palestinian death toll was likely to rise.
The strikes caused widespread panic and confusion in Gaza, as black clouds of smoke rose above the territory, ruled by Hamas for the past 18 months. Some of the Israeli missiles struck in densely populated areas as children were leaving school, and women rushed into the streets frantically looking for their children.
"My son is gone, my son is gone," wailed Said Masri, a 57-year-old shopkeeper, as he sat in the middle of a Gaza City street, slapping his face and covering his head with dust from a bombed-out security compound nearby.
He said he had sent his 9-year-old son out to purchase cigarettes minutes before the airstrikes began and now could not find him. "May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn," Masri moaned.
The offensive began eight days after a six-month truce between Israel and the militants expired. The Israeli army says Palestinian militants have fired some 300 rockets and mortars at Israeli targets over the past week, and in recent days, Israeli leaders had threatened to launch a major offensive.
"There is a time for calm and there is a time for fighting, and now is the time for fighting," said Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak, vowing to expand the operation if necessary.
Asked whether Hamas political leaders might be targeted, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni declared at a news conference: "Hamas is a terrorist organization and nobody is immune."
The first round of airstrikes on Gaza came just before noon. More than 100 attacks took place, continuing well into the evening.
Hospitals crowded with people, civilians rushing in wounded people in cars, vans and ambulances. "There are heads without bodies .... There's blood in the corridors. People are weeping, women are crying, doctors are shouting, " said nurse Ahmed Abdel Salaam from Shifa Hospital, Gaza's main treatment center.
The offensive sparked angry protests throughout the Arab world, and British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, the Vatican, the U.N. secretary-general and special Mideast envoy Tony Blair all called for an immediate restoration of calm. The Arab League scheduled an emergency meeting Sunday to discuss the situation.
In Washington, White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said, "Hamas' continued rocket attacks into Israel must cease if the violence is to stop. The United States urges Israel to avoid civilian casualties as it targets Hamas in Gaza."
In Gaza City's main security compound, bodies of more than a dozen uniformed Hamas police lay on the ground. One survivor raised his index finger in a show of Muslim faith, uttering a prayer. The Gaza police chief was among those killed. One man, his face bloodied, sat dazed on the ground as a fire raged nearby.
By early evening, 205 Gazans were known to be dead and 388 wounded, Gaza health official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said. He did not provide figures on civilian deaths. But earlier in the day, police said about 140 Hamas security forces were killed. Some of the dead, rolled in blankets, were laid out on the floor of Gaza's main hospital for identification.
Israeli military officials said more than 100 tons of bombs were dropped on Gaza by mid-afternoon. They spoke on condition of anonymity under military guidelines.
Defiant Hamas leaders threatened revenge. Hamas "will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood," vowed spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.
Israel told its civilians near Gaza to take cover, and in the West Bank, moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, in a bitter rivalry with Hamas, condemned Israel. Egypt summoned the Israeli ambassador to express condemnation and opened its border with Gaza to allow ambulances to drive out some of the wounded.
Despite the overwhelming show of force, it was not clear whether it would halt the rocket fire. Past operations have failed to stop the attacks.
One rocket struck the Israeli town of Netivot, killing an Israeli man and wounding four people, rescue services said.
Dozens of stunned residents, some of them weeping, gathered around the house that took the deadly rocket hit. A hole gaped in one of the walls, which was pocked with shrapnel marks. The crowd broke up after an alert siren went off and everyone went running.
Streets were nearly empty in Sderot, the Israeli border town that has been pummeled hardest by rockets. A few cars carried panicked residents leaving town. Dozens of people congregated on a hilltop to watch the Israeli aerial attacks.
Protests against the campaign erupted in Arab Israeli villages, the Abbas-ruled West Bank and across the Arab world.
The most violent West Bank response came in the city of Hebron, where dozens of youths, many of them masked, hurled rocks for hours at Israeli forces, who lobbed tear gas and stun grenades in response. Officials in Bethlehem, Jesus' traditional birthplace, turned off Christmas lights and traders shuttered shops to protest the Israeli attack.
Anti-Israel protests also erupted in Amman, Jordan, and in Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria.
Israel has targeted Gaza in the past, but the number of simultaneous attacks was unprecedented.
Israel left Gaza in 2005 after a 38-year occupation, but the withdrawal did not lead to better relations with Palestinians in the territory as Israeli officials had hoped.
Instead, the evacuation was followed by a sharp rise in militant attacks on Israeli border communities that on several occasions provoked harsh Israeli military reprisals.

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 12:53 PM

Show me the dead jews that resulted from the "3000" rocket attacks which prompted the massacre of over 200 civilians. Rather than posting unrelated carnage.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 12:56 PM

Show me the dead jews that resulted from the "3000" rocket attacks which prompted the massacre of over 200 civilians. Rather than posting unrelated carnage.

haha at unrelated carnage. The topic of this thread and even the new news is how Israel retaliated for the aggression of Hezbollah.

I like to use this as an understanding for folk like you who make a living out of shoving your head (and dicks) in your ass; You pull a gun on me and threaten my life, you better kill me or so help me god I'll kill you. Hamas fired '3000' rockets and thankfully only killed one. Israel shot 30-70 and killed 200-800 folk.

One has better aim.

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 12:58 PM

One has better aim.

Yeah, that's what they said about intifada too, stones can heart, bullets will kill...

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 01:00 PM

Yeah, that's what they said about intifada too, stones can heart, bullets will kill...

Wrong. Stones kill as well.

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 01:03 PM

Wrong. Stones kill as well.

Yeah...and if I shit on your mouth while pinching your nose, you might die after a while aswell. Still pulling a bullet through your skull will be much easier, much faster, much effective, don't you think?

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 01:04 PM

Yeah...and if I shit on your mouth while pinching your nose, you might die after a while aswell. Still pulling a bullet through your skull will be much easier, much faster, much effective, don't you think?

So are you trying to say that Hezbollah only uses stones to kill?

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 01:08 PM

So are you trying to say that Hezbollah only uses stones to kill?

No, I don't. Most of these guys ARE terrorists and should be stopped. With lethal force if necessary. That's the death of dozens of innocents as a collateral that buggers me a tiny bit.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 01:10 PM

No, I don't. Most of these guys ARE terrorists and should be stopped. With lethal force if necessary. That's the death of dozens of innocents as a collateral that buggers me a tiny bit.

That isn't Israel's fault (ok, well, it's MAINLY not their fault). If you don't want collateral damage, don't have compounds in the middle of communities. Don't hold high-level meetings in apartment buildings. Don't do a number of things that get your family/friends killed.

It's a well known, common practice for their culture to hide amongst their own.

taters

12-27-2008, 01:20 PM

Goat, the mere fact that you and Claydon are big supporters of Israeli policy speaks badly for them. Imagine David Duke coming out and supporting (laugh) the republican candidate. It doesnt speak well with who you are supporting.

...and why shouldnt it?-

http://palestinethinktank.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/soldato-contro-bimbi-e-donna.jpg

http://antiisgood.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/double_standards_enggif.png

Black Israelis who were duped into thinking they were being brought in to a land of acceptance and tolerance-

http://www.uruknet.it/uruknet-images/falasha-racism.jpg

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2190

Hebron Jews win Good Housekeeping Award

Settlers to Ethiopian troops: ******* don't expel Jews

12.04.2008 | Ynet
By Danny Adino Ababa

Border Guard officers of Ethiopian descent report rising number of racially motivated verbal attacks from Hebron youths; Druze officers also suffer racist remarks

Not only do they serve long and tiring hours in the reserve forces, and not only are they forced to deal with violent clashes with settlers, but now, Border Guard officers of Ethiopian descent are also faced with rising racism.

"******* don't expel Jews! This isn't what we brought you to Israel for!" are just some of the degrading slurs Border Guard officers reported hearing from masked settlers.

During the violent clashes between Israeli forces and settlers in Hebron on Tuesday "a bunch of veiled people started yelling at us: Who are you to expel us from our home? An Ethiopian does not expel a Jew! A ****** does not expel a Jew!" one Border Guard officer of Ethiopian descent recounted.

"I just didn't know what to do with myself," he said.

Officers 'deeply offended' by remarks

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1559361/Israeli-minister-in-Ethiopian-racism-row.html

Isrealis show they arent just racist, but anti-christian as well

Israel's interior minister faces accusations of racism after he suggested suspending the policy of allowing Ethiopians with Jewish ancestry to move to the country.
While rabbinical authorities judge the so-called Falash Mura to be sufficiently Jewish to qualify for Israeli citizenship, Meir Sheetrit said they were not really Jewish and had been let in only because of "political correctness".
In remarks that incensed the large Falasha community already in Israel, he implied that Ethiopians were fleecing the state by leaving the economic hardship of their birthplace and enjoying comfortable new lives in Israel.
"Who needs them?" he said in an interview with The Jerusalem Post. "They are all Christians. We need to take care of the future of Israel and this immigration will never finish."
His comments were denounced as racist by senior members of the Falasha community who pointed out that Jews from white countries were allowed into Israel without any question from the authorities.

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 01:22 PM

That isn't Israel's fault (ok, well, it's MAINLY not their fault). If you don't want collateral damage, don't have compounds in the middle of communities. Don't hold high-level meetings in apartment buildings. Don't do a number of things that get your family/friends killed.

It's a well known, common practice for their culture to hide amongst their own.

Maybe, probably, surely. Still them being cowards, assholes and idiots don't give the right to the supoosed good guys to act as such. Israeli army is supposed to be a very competent armed force and the mossad is internationally known to be one of the best secret service there is. Surely, if they really wanted too, they could go in there and pick them up as their will. Instead they too often choose to put out a show, thinking that acting like bullies will make them think twice before attacking them again. And every time they are proved wrong.
So what I'm saying, I guess, is that Israel don't give a shit anymore and that their only real plan is to get rid alltogether of Gaza and Palestine, no matter the cost, no matter the consequences. And I'm definetly sure that it is just plain wrong.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 01:22 PM

zomg an Israeli soldier pointing his rifle AWAY from civilians!!!11111nn

the horror!!!!!!

taters

12-27-2008, 01:24 PM

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 01:25 PM

Maybe, probably, surely. Still them being cowards, assholes and idiots don't give the right to the supoosed good guys to act as such. Israeli army is supposed to be a very competent armed force and the mossad is internationally known to be one of the best secret service there is. Surely, if they really wanted too, they could go in there and pick them up as their will. Instead they too often choose to put out a show, thinking that acting like bullies will make them think twice before attacking them again. And every time they are proved wrong.
So what I'm saying, I guess, is that Israel don't give a shit anymore and that their only real plan is to get rid alltogether of Gaza and Palestine, no matter the cost, no matter the consequences. And I'm definetly sure that it is just plain wrong.

A. Mossad does NOT negotiate with terrorists, nor do they apprehend them. THey're good at killing.

and B. No. Israel is not out to get rid of Gaza and Palestine. Israel is out to kill those who've sworn an oath to kill every Jew ie their Govt.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 01:27 PM

^ Look a little closer at that pic. If Away from civilians = towards arab children, you are right. Look at the look in those kids faces...not the look of a people who are 'treated fairly and welcoming' by their jewish neighbors.

Im surprised you didnt have a joke for the article snippets on Israeli racism towards black israelis.

You god damn ****, he's pointing LEFT of the girl, hence why she's getting yanked back from running THAT DIRECTION. Jesus christ boy, pull them lips from over your eyes and get some perspective.

also, that's Arab land and more than likely during a sweep to rid the border towns of rocket attacks. So no, Israel is not a 'good, welcoming neighbor' but then again, Gaza and Palestine has never been.

fuldstændigamok

12-27-2008, 01:32 PM

A. Mossad does NOT negotiate with terrorists, nor do they apprehend them. THey're good at killing.

Humm, yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I meant by "picking them up", I didn't say that they should play a tag game with them. Go there, kill them, get out. They KNOW how to do that, why don't they do it?

B. No. Israel is not out to get rid of Gaza and Palestine.

Oh come on. Of course they want it, even if they won't admit it publicy.

taters

12-27-2008, 01:34 PM

also, that's Arab land and more than likely during a sweep to rid the border towns of rocket attacks. So no, Israel is not a 'good, welcoming neighbor' but then again, Gaza and Palestine has never been.

Goat, you and your racist texan ilk belong in a recycling bin behind the local Kinkos.

Well, its not very nice to invade and steal land and expect people to be nice to you.

Still, you havent read either of the articles. I was expecting some racist slur or joke about black jews not being jewish enough or something like. Are you losing your touch?

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 03:25 PM

haha at unrelated carnage. The topic of this thread and even the new news is how Israel retaliated for the aggression of Hezbollah.

I like to use this as an understanding for folk like you who make a living out of shoving your head (and dicks) in your ass; You pull a gun on me and threaten my life, you better kill me or so help me god I'll kill you. Hamas fired '3000' rockets and thankfully only killed one. Israel shot 30-70 and killed 200-800 folk.

One has better aim.

No, it's like me shooting at you and then you blowing up my neighbors. Honestly, stick to posting prolapsed anuses because that's all you're good for. Intelligent conversation is beyond your barefoot podunk ass.

Archangel

12-27-2008, 03:36 PM

Show me the dead jews that resulted from the "3000" rocket attacks which prompted the massacre of over 200 civilians. Rather than posting unrelated carnage.

How do you assume that all of the victims are civilians? Do they wear "I'm not a terrorist" hats?

Israel is perfectly justified in doing this, since their cities keep getting pelted with cheap iranian knock offs of shitty chinese rockets.
Somebody is getting their facts mixed up. The Chinese missile copied by the Iranians is the HY-2 Silkworm sea-skimming anti-ship missile. Hezbollah is rumoured to have a few, but we're talking a rather expensive guided weapon here. It needs radar guidance, a large launcher assembly etc.

And by the way, the Silkworm is anything but "shitty": crude, perhaps, but effective.

What you mean is the Iranian copy of the old Soviet BM-21 Grad katyusha-type artillery MLRS; a wholly different weapon altogether.

Get your facts right before mouthing off.

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 03:42 PM

taters

12-27-2008, 03:51 PM

How do you assume that they are all terrorists?

Their general bigotry. The extreme right wing of America has a policy of 'hating the more different group', hence why they hate jews in America, but love them when they are killing Arab/Muslims in the middle east.

If you track it down, you can find this policy of 'who we endorse' in every conflict. They hate pakistanis because they are muslim in their conflicts with india (ethnically, they are the same as indians), and within India itself they hate Tamils when they oppose sinhalese (in sri lanka) or non dravidian indian people in india.

They hate sunni muslims over here, but love them when they are killing shiites or oppressing their own populations with dictatorships (saudi arabia).

They hate Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland when poised against the brits and protestants, they hate basques in Spain when poised against the spanish, but love them here when they came and were poised against the native americans.

It applies in all things. They hate mexicans when they are asking for equality in comparison to whites, but love them when they express hate against blacks or asians (in the south and south west). In the north, vice versa, with loving black people when we express disdain for mexican peoples or gays, but loathing us when we are contesting with them (whites) for equality.

Even amongst conservatives it applies. They LOVE mormons and (in the older days) Catholics when they support conservative policy, but loath them when they run for office.

Its 'who do you hate more' with these people.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 05:10 PM

How do you assume that they are all terrorists? Because the jews do. All I have heard in the news is jew condolences for the one jew killed and not one mention of the women and children that were blown to pieces by their advanced weaponry.

I love it when you can't read correctly. We aren't saying they're all terrorist you fucking mut. We've said on countless occasions that the terrorists hide AMONGST the civilians. Thus making collateral damage a reality.

Christ boy, pay attention.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 05:15 PM

Like our official position really needed to be posted...

CRAWFORD, Texas – The U.S. on Saturday blamed the militant group Hamas for breaking a cease-fire and attacking Israel, which retaliated with strikes of its own during what became the single bloodiest day of fighting in years.
The White House called for the cease-fire to be restored, yet there were few indications that the violence, which has left more than 200 people dead and nearly another 400 wounded, was waning. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak warned that the operation in Gaza would widen if necessary.
It was "completely unacceptable" for Hamas, which controls Gaza, to launch attacks on Israel after a truce lasting several months, said Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council.
"These people are nothing but thugs, so Israel is going to defend its people against terrorists like Hamas that indiscriminately kill their own people," Johndroe said in Texas as President George W. Bush was spending the week before New Year's at his ranch here. "They need to stop. We have said in the past that they have a choice to make. You can't have one foot in politics and one foot in terror."
Johndroe said President-elect Barack Obama was receiving an intelligence briefing on Saturday from various security agencies. He said Bush has spoken to regional leaders and the administration will remain in close contact.
As Israel bombed Gaza, defiant Hamas leaders threatened revenge. Hamas "will continue the resistance until the last drop of blood," vowed spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.
Moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who controls the West Bank, condemned Israel. Egypt summoned the Israeli ambassador to express condemnation and opened its border with Gaza to allow ambulances to drive out some of the wounded.
Asked if the United States would back a continuation of the retaliatory strikes by Israel, Johndroe said: "The U.S. doesn't want to see any more violence. I think what we've got to see is Hamas stop firing rockets into Israel. That's what precipitated this."
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice kept the president abreast of the situation. At the ranch, the president took a call from King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, who wanted to discuss the violence that began eight days after a six-month truce between Israel and the militants expired.
"The United States strongly condemns the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel and holds Hamas responsible for breaking the cease-fire and for the renewal of violence in Gaza," Rice said in a statement. "The cease-fire should be restored immediately. The United States calls on all concerned to address the urgent humanitarian needs of the innocent people of Gaza."
Israeli warplanes launched counterattacks on dozens of security compounds across the Hamas-ruled territory in unprecedented waves of airstrikes. Most of those killed were security men, but an unknown number of civilians were also among the dead.
Hamas said all of its security installations were hit, threatened to resume suicide attacks, and sent at least 70 rockets and mortar shells crashing into Israeli border communities, according to the Israeli military. One Israeli was killed and at least six people were hurt.
With so many wounded, the Palestinian death toll was likely to rise. The strikes caused widespread panic and confusion in Gaza. Some of the Israeli missiles struck in densely populated areas as children were leaving school, and women rushed into the streets frantically looking for their children.
Johndroe said the U.S. was concerned that humanitarian needs were being met in Gaza. He urged Israel to avoid striking civilians, but he refrained from commenting specifically on positions that had been hit on the ground.
"I know they are targeting security and Hamas headquarters facilities," Johndroe said. "We urge them (the Israelis) to avoid civilian casualties."
"The message from the United States is that Hamas is a terrorist organization that is firing rockets into Israel and they fired them onto their own people as well," Johndroe said, noting reports he'd seen about the death of two Palestinian girls. "Hamas has done nothing for the people of Gaza."
The offensive has sparked angry protests throughout the Arab world. British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, the Vatican, the U.N. secretary-general and special Mideast envoy Tony Blair called for an immediate restoration of calm. The Arab League scheduled an emergency meeting Sunday to discuss the situation.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 05:18 PM

oh and tater, per your request about seeing Israeli damage from the rockets...

601_1230154447

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 06:07 PM

You are a retard that is not worth the effort. You're like the sarah palin baby of posters.

Morfin

12-27-2008, 06:15 PM

Their general bigotry. The extreme right wing of America has a policy of 'hating the more different group', hence why they hate jews in America, but love them when they are killing Arab/Muslims in the middle east.

If you track it down, you can find this policy of 'who we endorse' in every conflict. They hate pakistanis because they are muslim in their conflicts with india (ethnically, they are the same as indians), and within India itself they hate Tamils when they oppose sinhalese (in sri lanka) or non dravidian indian people in india.

They hate sunni muslims over here, but love them when they are killing shiites or oppressing their own populations with dictatorships (saudi arabia).

They hate Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland when poised against the brits and protestants, they hate basques in Spain when poised against the spanish, but love them here when they came and were poised against the native americans.

It applies in all things. They hate mexicans when they are asking for equality in comparison to whites, but love them when they express hate against blacks or asians (in the south and south west). In the north, vice versa, with loving black people when we express disdain for mexican peoples or gays, but loathing us when we are contesting with them (whites) for equality.

Even amongst conservatives it applies. They LOVE mormons and (in the older days) Catholics when they support conservative policy, but loath them when they run for office.

Its 'who do you hate more' with these people.

Wow, just wow. (And not in an compliementary sense, but in an incredulous sense that someone could believe all of this and use such sweeping generalities. I pity you and your persecution complex.)

Claydon

12-27-2008, 06:17 PM

When this kind of shit happens, I am reminded of a story my dad told me once.

When my dad was like 11 years old in the 1950s, Israel and the arabs were not exactly on friendly terms. I guess some skirmish broke out and my dad and his friends took one of those old bull horns from their school. They went to the local jewish temple on a saturday morning during services. They threw open the doors and screamed out "to arms to arms the arabs are coming". I guess some of the jews tried to catch them but they ran too fast.

at least it seemed funny when my dad told me

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 06:31 PM

Your dad is a moron.

Gary_Busey

12-27-2008, 06:48 PM

Yeah, and what a fucking horrible story.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 07:13 PM

You are a retard that is not worth the effort. You're like the sarah palin baby of posters.

You need better material. That's on par with Smuckers

Nosebuckle

12-27-2008, 07:43 PM

Their general bigotry. The extreme right wing of America has a policy of 'hating the more different group', hence why they hate jews in America, but love them when they are killing Arab/Muslims in the middle east.

If you track it down, you can find this policy of 'who we endorse' in every conflict. They hate pakistanis because they are muslim in their conflicts with india (ethnically, they are the same as indians), and within India itself they hate Tamils when they oppose sinhalese (in sri lanka) or non dravidian indian people in india.

They hate sunni muslims over here, but love them when they are killing shiites or oppressing their own populations with dictatorships (saudi arabia).

They hate Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland when poised against the brits and protestants, they hate basques in Spain when poised against the spanish, but love them here when they came and were poised against the native americans.

It applies in all things. They hate mexicans when they are asking for equality in comparison to whites, but love them when they express hate against blacks or asians (in the south and south west). In the north, vice versa, with loving black people when we express disdain for mexican peoples or gays, but loathing us when we are contesting with them (whites) for equality.

Even amongst conservatives it applies. They LOVE mormons and (in the older days) Catholics when they support conservative policy, but loath them when they run for office.

Its 'who do you hate more' with these people.

I usually don't like to get into these Israeli-Hamas paddycake matches, but what the fuck does this even mean? Conservatives are generally bigots to suite their pleasure? Gotta love it even more that in your attempt to respond to Pizz and smear conservatives as hating US Jews, you gloss over Pizz's blatant (and well-known) disdain for Jews. No wonder you're always scratching your head when people call you a fucking idiot.

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 08:03 PM

I dont hate jews. I just thing they should die choking.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 08:06 PM

I dont hate jews. I just thing they should die choking.

Why would they act like your kin?

BIG PIZZLE

12-27-2008, 08:10 PM

To collect the insurance benefits.

Mustard

12-27-2008, 08:10 PM

Morfin

12-27-2008, 08:15 PM

Christ, I've heard funnier things uttered by David Allen Grier.

Yes, Claydon's story was horridly bad. But still, no need to get nasty!

IdiotBrain

12-27-2008, 09:51 PM

I think taters calling anyone a racist and/or bigot or anything of the sort is the epitome of irony.

Just because you're black doesn't mean you can't be a racist.

Mustard

12-27-2008, 09:55 PM

Yes, Claydon's story was horridly bad. But still, no need to get nasty!
If Claydon were an Indian story teller, the tribe would eat him for telling that story.

Le Goat

12-27-2008, 09:56 PM

If Claydon were an Indian story teller, the tribe would eat him for telling that story.

NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT FOOD MR STAYPUFT!

Mustard

12-27-2008, 09:58 PM

NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT FOOD MR STAYPUFT!
YES IT IS, AND I CHALLENGE YOU TO A DUEL FOR UTTERING SUCH BLASPHEMY!

Morfin

12-27-2008, 10:06 PM

If Claydon were an Indian story teller, the tribe would eat him for telling that story.

Along with a fine Merlot.

Phil Theehor

12-27-2008, 10:22 PM

Their general bigotry. The extreme right wing of America has a policy of 'hating the more different group', hence why they hate jews in America, but love them when they are killing Arab/Muslims in the middle east.

If you track it down, you can find this policy of 'who we endorse' in every conflict. They hate pakistanis because they are muslim in their conflicts with india (ethnically, they are the same as indians), and within India itself they hate Tamils when they oppose sinhalese (in sri lanka) or non dravidian indian people in india.

They hate sunni muslims over here, but love them when they are killing shiites or oppressing their own populations with dictatorships (saudi arabia).

They hate Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland when poised against the brits and protestants, they hate basques in Spain when poised against the spanish, but love them here when they came and were poised against the native americans.

It applies in all things. They hate mexicans when they are asking for equality in comparison to whites, but love them when they express hate against blacks or asians (in the south and south west). In the north, vice versa, with loving black people when we express disdain for mexican peoples or gays, but loathing us when we are contesting with them (whites) for equality.

Even amongst conservatives it applies. They LOVE mormons and (in the older days) Catholics when they support conservative policy, but loath them when they run for office.

Its 'who do you hate more' with these people.

Tates, you are killing me. Shame.

Even you should see that "loving group x when they are with us, but hating them when they are against us" is not bigotry, it's pragmatism. If it were bigotry, then group x would be despised regardless of where they stood on an issue.

And don't go saying "conservative = racist". That really is retarded. Bigoted, even. What you are doing is picking out an offensive trait held by some members of a group and applying that trait to all members of that group.

Does that sound familiar?

Really, I would think that you have seen enough of that to know not to do it yourself.

Claydon

12-27-2008, 10:30 PM

Along with a fine Merlot.

1. Chianti

2. Fava Beans!

Claydon

12-28-2008, 12:08 AM

another day of bombing

GAZA (Reuters) - Israel launched air strikes on Gaza for a second successive day on Sunday, piling pressure on Hamas after 229 people were killed in one of the bloodiest 24 hours for Palestinians in 60 years of conflict with the Jewish state.
"Palestine has never seen an uglier massacre," said Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh and his Islamist group, which has controlled the coastal territory since June 2007, vowed revenge including suicide bombings in Israel's "cafes and streets."
Israel bolstered armored and infantry forces along the Gaza Strip border, and a military spokesman said on Sunday: "The (Gaza) operation is continuous. It is still taking place."
The Jewish state said it was responding to "intolerable" almost daily rocket and mortar fire by Gaza militants that intensified after Hamas ended a six-month ceasefire a week ago.
The militant attacks caused some injuries, raising the stakes for Israeli leaders ahead of a February 10 election which surveys show the right-wing opposition Likud party may win.
Israel said its warplanes mounted about 100 strikes on Saturday and that Palestinian militants had fired some 70 rockets at the Jewish state, killing one Israeli man.
"There is a time for calm and a time for fighting, and now the time has come to fight," Defense Minister Ehud Barak said on television. He later ruled out any new truce with Hamas.
Black smoke billowed over Gaza City after Israel bombed more than 40 security compounds, and uniformed bodies lay in a pile and the wounded writhed in pain at a graduation ceremony for new recruits hosted by Hamas.
Some rescue workers beat their heads and shouted, "God is greatest." A wounded man quietly recited verses from the Koran.
More than 700 Palestinians were wounded in Saturday's attacks, said medical staff.
Israel said the operation was aimed at "terrorist infrastructure," and outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said it "may take time." Officials said Hamas leaders could be targeted.

Le Goat

12-28-2008, 12:22 AM

The Israeli Air Force has released footage from one of today's airstrikes on an underground rocket launcher.

The two captions in Hebrew that come into the video state the underground launcher,was between civilian homes. The second pointed out an exploding rocket as a result of the direct hit from the plane.

14c_1230423381

taters

12-28-2008, 02:03 AM

Wow, just wow. (And not in an compliementary sense, but in an incredulous sense that someone could believe all of this and use such sweeping generalities. I pity you and your persecution complex.)

Yes, those statements are WAAAY off base. I mean, theres no way right wing policy in America has supported the israelis against arabs in their conflict, while supporting sunni arabs against shiite arabs (cough cough, iran-iraq war, current iraq occupation), or supported irish orangers over irish protestants, or have shown more support for indian over pakistanis, but show support for hindi indians over tamil indians in their domestic policy...I mean thats just fucking crazy talk! American conservatives have ALWAYS LOVED DOMESTIC JEWS and shown support for them as they have the israeli state (when they werent making backhanded comments about them owning the media, enforcing multiculturalism, controlling the economy etc etc...read up on conservative commentary during the CR movement, and back during WW2 and the depression FDR era).

I mean, how could I have even come up with something that absurd! (I find it hilarious I get the same responses here when bringing that topic up that a 'similar' incogneto fisher received on the old vangard white seperatist forum, but I digress)

You arent apparently a history buff, are you morfin (I already know the answer from our discussion a while back).

onservatives are generally bigots to suite their pleasure?
I think you got the jist of it. Before you claim otherwise, take a good look at some of the postings of your sides figurehead and the most frequent poster, Mr Goat (and Claydon), in this thread and others. Tell me this guy who supports, haphazardly, every conservative stance brought out here, has shown outright antisemetism, yet supports the state of israel in its attacks on arabs.

Really, you are going to look at that and argue its not the case? Serious?!

By the way, I agree with you that being black doesnt make someone not a racist. Making racist comments or supporting them does. Something I have never done, but a few of you here (claydon, goat, yelram specifically) do on a regular basis.

Morfin

12-28-2008, 09:07 AM

You arent apparently a history buff, are you morfin (I already know the answer from our discussion a while back).

No, but I admit it. You are an idiot, and you fail to admit it.

As usual, you respond by changing the argument, your original post had to do with "hating the more different group":

The extreme right wing of America has a policy of 'hating the more different group', hence why they hate jews in America, but love them when they are killing Arab/Muslims in the middle east.

. . .

It applies in all things. They hate mexicans when they are asking for equality in comparison to whites, but love them when they express hate against blacks or asians (in the south and south west). In the north, vice versa, with loving black people when we express disdain for mexican peoples or gays, but loathing us when we are contesting with them (whites) for equality.

Like I said before, your theory is delusional and too broadly stated to be anything more than an idiotic rant not unlike Yelram's issue with Obama's birth certificate. You can yell and preach all you want; you can tell me that I am stupid or that I don't read your posts. But the bottom line is that your opinions, no matter how many times you scream them, are still the rants of a raving paranoid fool.

taters

12-28-2008, 09:42 AM

As usual, you respond by changing the argument, your original post had to do with "hating the more different group":

Yes, and you commented that my claims on the american right's history of support and opposition (ireland, india, the middle east, domestically) in external conflicts was incorrect.

I retorted sarcastically that you must be right, none of those above mentioned enjoyed support from the right. You still have not admitted or denied this, only pressed further ad hominem claims.

I even gave an example that you cleverly (and wisely...so as not to admit obvious flaw in your counter claim) ignored.

Dont make an ad hominem argument in retort to someone elses claims without a substantive disproof. or at least, dont make it and expect your claim to acheive 'instant legitimacy' simply because its attacking someone sans any counter proof.

Le Goat

12-28-2008, 09:46 AM

Yes, and you commented that my claims on the american right's history of support and opposition (ireland, india, the middle east, domestically) in external conflicts was incorrect.

I retorted sarcastically that you must be right, none of those above mentioned enjoyed support from the right. You still have not admitted or denied this, only pressed further ad hominem claims.

I even gave an example that you cleverly (and wisely...so as not to admit obvious flaw in your counter claim) ignored.

Dont make an ad hominem argument in retort to someone elses claims without a substantive disproof. or at least, dont make it and expect your claim to acheive 'instant legitimacy' simply because its attacking someone sans any counter proof.

hahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhah a

Morfin

12-28-2008, 11:45 AM

To my prior description of taters, add "total lack of self-awareness."

Claydon

12-28-2008, 01:22 PM

wait...did tater say the jews suck?

ick

12-28-2008, 03:28 PM

Fuck Israel. Genocidal religious maniacs.

IdiotBrain

12-28-2008, 03:46 PM

ICK: post something useful or gtfo nub.

Claydon

12-28-2008, 04:14 PM

Fuck Israel. Genocidal religious maniacs.

actually, israel is a secular state...you lose.

ick

12-28-2008, 06:42 PM

Except it was founded as the homeland of a people who share no affiliation beyond their religion (I've heard the ethnicity argument, and am highly skeptical you could trace "Jewish" lineages genetically to a common source, such as you could say, Irish people..). Also, despite having a parliamentary democracy, Israel readily enforces laws based on religious mandate - such as the Law of Return, or "birthright".

So it is hardly a secular country, as you call it.

And no, I am not an anti-semite, I am simply admitting what few will admit, based on the UN's own genocide conventions (written by Rafael Lemkin, a jew, no less...) - that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians. Relocation and murder based solely on ethnicity qualifies as genocide. Look it up.

By the way, I WAS on the old board, thank you very much...

Claydon

12-28-2008, 06:59 PM

actually it is a secular state, they are ruled by laws, they have a democratically elected parliament...so yah, they are a secular state.

defending one's citizens from a constant barrage of rockets is not religious fanaticisim, it is common sense.

Le Goat

12-28-2008, 10:15 PM

a12_1230492080

Airsrikes on tunnels and rocket launching sites.

1st Hit : Tunnel entrance rocket launching site.

2nd and 3rd Hit : Rocket launch sites.

4th Hit : Attack on weapon storage facilities,secondary explosions caused by stored rockets at the site.

Text from source : Air operation conducted in the southern Gaza Strip, along the Philadelphi route, Hshmido aircraft shortly before the Battle o More.. (javascript://)f the Air Force about 40 tunnels of the terrorist organization Hamas, used weapons smuggling. Haml"h Shubrh through the Tunnel Shuftztzo intended to carry out hostile terrorist activity.

Until לחשיפתן, served as the Tunnel terror organization Hamas terrorists crossing from Egypt from the Gaza Strip, and was part of ממנגנון purchasing firearms Ohhtztiidot ובחומרי obstruction of the organization.

Since the beginning of the operation and to this day (Sunday) morning about -210 IDF attacked targets of the terrorist organization Hamas in the Gaza Strip and Government. During the last night the IDF attacked some 30 targets, including, deposits, camps, facilities, sites and storage of the means of production Orktot combat. All Teisi air force which had left them in peace following activities.

Yesterday Sogro from the Gaza Strip at Israeli territory over -110 mortar rockets Oftztzot who most of the range of 27 kilometers.

I do not think this is the absolute stopped shooting the target of hostilities. Bkoonot have hurt their Ovmotibtzih to continue to shoot. "Said an IDF spokesman, Avi Ta"l Venyahu, in an interview a short while ago Shanik Razi Barkai's program this morning IDF Radio," What on fire. " "The IDF's mission is to bring the situation around the Gaza Strip Stiootzr reality another security, better over time," explained Ta"l Venyahu. "We continue to - according to the plan to carry out the mission in Gaza."

Also added Ta"l Venyahu that there is another large bank's goals and objectives: "We know exactly what we are doing harm ויודעים who needs to hurt." According to him, the IDF struck crowd manufacturers and Yagur, so in order to bring them to consciousness that they did not have continue to shoot, shoot Bmotibtzih to harm them, "we act to reduce the shooting as possible." In addition, he said that is not carved options of other actions that are not air.

Since the Home Front Command yesterday Prize soldiers that help each time, residents of Gaza wrapper, along with authorities require emergency action was taken to prepare the population. Home Front Command emphasizes again that there is sound guidelines Shintno days during the operation

Claydon

12-28-2008, 10:51 PM

Third day of strikes....

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Israeli jets pounded Hamas targets in Gaza for a third day Monday, continuing an operation that Palestinian security sources said has killed more than 270 people.
Fire burns late Sunday or early Monday in Gaza, where Israel has been bombing what it says are Hamas targets.
Hamas militants launched more rockets into Israel on Sunday. Israel has said its airstrikes are a necessary self-defense measure after repeated rocket attacks from Gaza into southern Israel.
Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told CNN on Sunday that the airstrikes will continue "until we have a change on the ground" and that Israel has not ruled out a ground war in Gaza.
"Israel (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Israel) targets only military targets and places in which we know Hamas members are," Livni said.
"Unfortunately, in this kind of attack, there are some civilian casualties. But Israel took all the necessary actions to warn the civilians before the attacks to leave the places they know that Hamas stays."
Israeli ground troops and tanks were deployed around Gaza on Sunday. There is no indication of a ground operation inside Gaza, but a senior military official said troops around Gaza will "be activated if needed." http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/tabs/video.gifWatch an ambassador say Israel is only defending itself » (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/28/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo)
Israel will call up 7,000 reserve soldiers, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said during Sunday's Cabinet meeting. He told ministers he planned to present the measure to two Knesset committees, which must approve the action.

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 08:39 AM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel's air force obliterated symbols of Hamas power on the third day of its Gaza assault Monday, striking next to the Hamas premier's home, devastating a security compound and flattening a building at a university linked to the Islamic group.
Israel's defense minister said his military is fighting a "war to the bitter end" against Hamas.
The three-day death toll rose to at least 315 by Monday morning, with some 1,400 wounded. The U.N. said at least 51 of the dead were civilians, and medics said eight children under the age of 17 were killed in two separate strikes overnight. Israel launched its campaign, the deadliest against Palestinians in decades, on Saturday in retaliation for rocket fire aimed at civilians in southern Israeli towns.
Since then, the number of Israeli troops on the Gaza border has doubled and the Cabinet approved the call-up of 6,500 reserve soldiers.
The strikes have driven Hamas leaders into hiding and appear to have gravely damaged the organization's ability to launch rockets, but barrages continued. Sirens warning of incoming rockets sent Israelis scrambling for cover throughout the day.
One medium-range rocket fired at the Israeli city of Ashkelon killed an Arab construction worker there Monday and wounded several others. He was the second Israeli killed since the beginning of the offensive, and the first person ever to be killed by a rocket in Ashkelon, a city of 120,000.
On Sunday, Hamas missiles struck for the first time near the city of Ashdod, twice as far from Gaza as Ashkelon and only 25 miles (40 kilometers) from Israel's heart in Tel Aviv. Hamas leaders have also threatened to renew suicide attacks inside Israel.
At first light Monday, strong winds blew black smoke from the bombed sites over Gaza City's deserted streets. The air hummed with the buzz of drone aircraft and the roar of jets, punctuated by airstrike explosions. Palestinian health officials said one strike killed four Islamic Jihad militants and a child.
Most of those killed since Saturday were members of Hamas security forces, though the precise numbers remain unclear. A Hamas police spokesman, Ehab Ghussen, said 180 members of the Hamas security forces were among the dead, and the U.N. agency in charge of Palestinian refugees said at least 51 of the dead were civilians. A rise in civilian casualties could intensify international pressure on Israel to abort the offensive.
Israel's intense bombings — more than 300 airstrikes since midday Saturday — reduced dozens of buildings to rubble. The military said naval vessels also bombarded targets from the sea.
One strike destroyed a five-story building in the women's wing at Islamic University, one of the most prominent Hamas symbols in Gaza. Other attacks ravaged a compound controlled by Preventive Security, one of the group's chief security arms, and destroyed a house next to the residence of Ismail Haniyeh, the Hamas prime minister.
Late Sunday, Israeli aircraft attacked a building in the Jebaliya refugee camp next to Gaza City, killing five children and teenagers under age 17 from the same family, Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said. In the southern town of Rafah, a toddler and his two teenage brothers were killed in an airstrike aimed at a Hamas commander, Hassanain said. In Gaza City, another attack killed two women.
Some families fled their apartments next to institutions linked to Hamas.
Suad Abu Wadi, 42, kept her six children close on mattresses in her Gaza City living room. Her husband sat with them, chain-smoking. Abu Wadi said he said nothing since seeing their neighbor carrying the body of his child, killed in an airstrike Saturday.
Gaza's nine hospitals were overwhelmed. Hassanain, who keeps a record for the Gaza Health Ministry, said that some of the over 1,400 wounded were now being taken to private clinics and even homes.
Abdel Hafez, a 55-year-old history teacher, waited outside a Gaza City bakery to buy bread. He said he was not a Hamas supporter but believed the strikes would only increase support for the group. "Each strike, each drop of blood are giving Hamas more fuel to continue," he said.
Ehud Barak, the Israeli defense minister, told parliament Israel was not fighting the residents of Gaza. "But we have a war to the bitter end against Hamas and its branches," he said. Barak said the goal is to deal Hamas a "severe blow" and that the operation would be "widened and deepened as needed."
In Israel, 17 people have been killed in attacks from Gaza since the beginning of the year, including nine civilians — six of them killed by rockets — and eight soldiers, according to Israel's Foreign Ministry.
Israeli security officials have warned that the militants' range now includes Beersheba, a major city 30 miles (50 kilometers) from Gaza. Resident Mazal Ivgi, 62, said she had prepared a bomb shelter. "In the meantime we don't really believe it's going to happen, but when the first boom comes people will be worried," she said.
Israel began Saturday's assault by targeting Hamas security installations, and has broadened the attacks since then. On Sunday planes struck dozens of smuggling tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border, cutting off a key lifeline that had supplied Hamas with weapons and Gaza with commercial goods.
In Jerusalem, Israel's Cabinet approved a call-up of 6,500 reserve soldiers Sunday in apparent preparation for a ground offensive. The final decision to call up reserves has yet to be made by the defense minister, and the Cabinet decision could be a pressure tactic. Military experts said Israel would need at least 10,000 soldiers for a full-scale invasion.
Israel has doubled the number of troops around Gaza and also deployed an artillery battery. Several hundred reservists have already been summoned to join their units, but no full combat formations have been mobilized so far.
The assault has sparked diplomatic fallout. Syria decided to suspend indirect peace talks with Israel, and the U.N. Security Council called on both sides to halt the fighting and asked Israel to allow humanitarian supplies into Gaza. Israel opened one of Gaza's border crossings Monday, and about 40 trucks had entered with food and medical supplies by midday, military spokesman Peter Lerner said.
Egypt also opened its borders to Gaza and allowed trucks loaded with humanitarian aid to enter the Rafah terminal Monday.
The prime minister of Turkey, one of the few Muslim countries to have relations with Israel, called the air assault a "crime against humanity," and French President Nicolas Sarkozy condemned "the provocations that led to this situation as well as the disproportionate use of force."
The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, who heads a moderate government in the West Bank and is holding peace talks with Israel, issued his strongest condemnation yet of the operation, calling it a "sweeping Israeli aggression against Gaza" and saying he would consult with his bitter rivals in Hamas in an effort to end it.
Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told reporters Monday, while "Hamas is looking for children to kill."
"Hamas is targeting deliberately kindergartens and schools and citizens and civilians because this is according to their values. Our values are completely different. We are trying to target Hamas, which hides among civilians," Livni said.
The carnage inflamed Arab and Muslim public opinion, setting off street protests in Arab communities in Israel and the West Bank, across the Arab world, and in some European cities.
On Monday, a Palestinian stabbed and wounded four Israelis in a West Bank settlement before he was shot and wounded. It was not immediately clear if the attack was directly connected to the events in Gaza.

315 and only 51 were civilians?

That's pretty damn good shooting.

Limp

12-29-2008, 08:43 AM

Better than us... even though we don't give a fuck.

Hell.. killing the children makes sense because it saves all the food they would have eaten between the time they are killed and when they are in their early 20's and suicide bomb someone.

It's just good business sense.

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 08:44 AM

Exactly. You can always make new babies

redsox39

12-29-2008, 08:53 AM

They would not have a land war? WTF do you think the mexican american war, or the war of 1812 were about? Were we fighting for ideology, or defending/attacking for land?

ANSWER the fucking question man!

Stop dodging and running around it. If we were the palestinians and the israelis were any other nation, would we not be doing what they are (and take history into context). Yes or No.

nOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

First off Tater, you are a fucking idiot, and this question might be the most retarded one posed by you yet. The Mexican's wouldn't win, couldn't win in 1812, aren't going to win now. Clayton said "it would never happen NOW anyways" and you said "What about 1812?". Apparenty Now=1812.

Thsi proves you don't read a fucking thing, and you just have to be a martyr for your worthless cause of "woe is me".

Second off., Isreal did what no American treaty with the Indians did. No American Settler's were ever moved off their own land kicking and screaming for the indians to launch new attacks on civilians for.

And since you are so concerned about what is right and wrong and who owns what, maybe you should bo back farther than 1940. Maybe Egypt should give every Jew 40 acres and a Mule for the hundreds of years of Slavery? I mean, seriously, look in the mirror you hypocrite asshole.

My favorite part is, you hate the United States and Western civilization so much, you are willing to stand up for Slave owners, Minority squashing majorities, woman rights violaters and child killers to rail against it. Your views are old, tried and failing in any real logic what so ever. Do you get so monthly HAMAS newsletter for your rethoric?

So at what point, what year, Tater, do you suppose we should re draw the borders to? For everyone mind you. Not Just Israel. 1900? 2000? 100 BC? 1400 AD?

redsox39

12-29-2008, 09:03 AM

There's also the issue of a bunch of sites sacred to Islam in that "one small area", which isn't really an issue unless you're an Islamic fundamentalist, but the sad fact there are many of those in the Arab world

You mean where a group of people came in and killed everyone, destroyed everything that was sacred from another group of people and then decided to build a huge temple there where they tore down the old one? Oh, but that was "x" ammount of years ago, so that doesn't count.

redsox39

12-29-2008, 09:16 AM

Which is it? Is it "the lands have been fought over and go to whomever can claim the' or 'the jews only have a small part, regardless of how they took it'?

Is the argument 'winner take all' (a very barbaric, if not realistic ideal) or 'appeasement through proportionality' (an ideal abandoned by most in the west after the rise of the third reich).

"We just want a little bit of your lands, not all, just a little...so therefore we have a right to it!".

If I came to your house with that same argument, would you cede over your garage to me?

Well, if I joined with a group of people to wipe out your family and I lost, yeah, you could probably get my garage. In fact, the courts would probably award you with all of my property.

redsox39

12-29-2008, 09:23 AM

taters

12-29-2008, 09:32 AM

IT'S NOT THEIR LANDS YOU FUCKING IDIOT!!!!!!

WHOS FUCKING LAND IS IT THEN?

THEY WERE THERE FIRST, and the israelis who were PLACED there were not FROM there.

I guarantee if Mexican Americans started a movement to reclaim the southwest as an 'aztlan' state, you guys on the right would (and actually are) bitch up a storm about that land being American, not mexican.

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 09:49 AM

The flying fuck are you talking about boy? The fuck do mexicans have to do with anything?

You fail to grasp the concept of a terrorist action so you run off on a tangent about wetbeans taking back land they lost a hundred some-odd years ago.

Awesome

redsox39

12-29-2008, 10:04 AM

redsox39

12-29-2008, 10:07 AM

I guarantee if Mexican Americans started a movement to reclaim the southwest as an 'aztlan' state, you guys on the right would (and actually are) bitch up a storm about that land being American, not mexican.

Don't worry, we were living here before WWII, which means it is our land.

taters

12-29-2008, 10:43 AM

Sorry, I forgot that the Palestinians founded Jeruselem...

My fault. I was looking at some Pre-WWII maps here and I found it, Palestine. right there! How did we miss it all there years?!?!?! Thank you Tater for clearing that up. Fuck-tard.

OF COURSE! Because Europeans didnt recognize the people living there, THAT MAKES IT TO WHERE THE PEOPLE DIDNT EXIST! I mean, its obvious! The same with the America's and Australia, and southern Africa. If European Maps dont recognize it, IT DOESNT EXIST!

Brilliant....never mind the fucking people who lived there the ENTIRE TIME the region was under ottoman possession. Those people were non-peoples, right? That land was just ripe for whatever group of europeans who wish to found a 'colony' right on top of them!

Your logic is impecable.

redsox39

12-29-2008, 10:58 AM

OF COURSE! Because Europeans didnt recognize the people living there, THAT MAKES IT TO WHERE THE PEOPLE DIDNT EXIST! I mean, its obvious! The same with the America's and Australia, and southern Africa. If European Maps dont recognize it, IT DOESNT EXIST!

Brilliant....never mind the fucking people who lived there the ENTIRE TIME the region was under ottoman possession. Those people were non-peoples, right? That land was just ripe for whatever group of europeans who wish to found a 'colony' right on top of them!

Your logic is impecable.

You say the people living there before...how about before the Ottoman Empire? Do they count? How about before Persia, or Rome or the 12 tribes fo Israel. Maybe we should track down the decendants of Adam and Eve to find out if we should be in Iraq? Seriously, the only timeline that matters to you is whatever is convienient for the time.

So when Tater's, were the Map lines made permenent? In what year was land not considered a spoil of war?

taters

12-29-2008, 11:06 AM

You say the people living there before...how about before the Ottoman Empire? Do they count? How about before Persia, or Rome or the 12 tribes fo Israel. Maybe we should track down the decendants of Adam and Eve to find out if we should be in Iraq? Seriously, the only timeline that matters to you is whatever is convienient for the time.

So when Tater's, were the Map lines made permenent? In what year was land not considered a spoil of war?

The persians, romans, 12 tribes, egyptians, hittites, assyrians, and ottoman empire no longer exist. What matters is what existed as of the establishment of Israel. Namely, the people who lived on the land immediately before the establishment of israel. Just because Europe didnt recognize their existence doesnt mean they didnt exist. Same goes for every other place europeans colonized. All had people there previously, to which europeans argued their 'racial, cultural, developmental' inferiority as a good reason to displace and take over those places.

If your argument is 'whomever can take over a place by force gets to keep it', argue that (and expect the hitler-germany/napoleon-france/imperial-japan counter reasoning)

. Dont mask it with some BS 'there was no Palestine' claim, because there was and has always been a Palestine, its just SOME peoples did not acknowledge the right of self determination of the people who lived there.

Nosebuckle

12-29-2008, 12:04 PM

Why aren't the palestinians and hamas pisses at the UN...the very organization that plopped the Jews in Israel in the first place

redsox39

12-29-2008, 12:20 PM

The persians, romans, 12 tribes, egyptians, hittites, assyrians, and ottoman empire no longer exist. What matters is what existed as of the establishment of Israel. Namely, the people who lived on the land immediately before the establishment of israel. Just because Europe didnt recognize their existence doesnt mean they didnt exist. Same goes for every other place europeans colonized. All had people there previously, to which europeans argued their 'racial, cultural, developmental' inferiority as a good reason to displace and take over those places.

If your argument is 'whomever can take over a place by force gets to keep it', argue that (and expect the hitler-germany/napoleon-france/imperial-japan counter reasoning)

. Dont mask it with some BS 'there was no Palestine' claim, because there was and has always been a Palestine, its just SOME peoples did not acknowledge the right of self determination of the people who lived there.

So Syria recognized Palestine? Iran? The Saudis? Iraq? Jordan?

You Sir, are an Idiot.

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 12:23 PM

Cause they can depend on sympathy from them. Also use said sympathy to smuggle weapons through.

redsox39

12-29-2008, 12:44 PM

Tater's. lol

Re: The Divided States of America (http://forum.gorillamask.net/showthread.php?p=315897#post315897)

taters

12-29-2008, 01:32 PM

Tater's. lol

Re: The Divided States of America (http://forum.gorillamask.net/showthread.php?p=315897#post315897)

http://forum.gorillamask.net/showthread.php?t=11836&highlight=russian

As usual, you are way behind the times in your thinking.

Next time, make a thread I didnt do a month earlier.

So Syria recognized Palestine? Iran? The Saudis? Iraq? Jordan?

Learn to read

What matters is what existed as of the establishment of Israel. Namely, the people who lived on the land immediately before the establishment of israel.

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 01:51 PM

Wait wait wait. So England should go ahead and be given back to the Italians. Most of northern Europe to Norway. All of East Asia to the Mongols.

Fuck me, while we are at it. Lets just go ahead and give everything back to Neanderthals.

redsox39

12-29-2008, 01:53 PM

Learn to read

So since they were there in a make believe country before Israel was created, that is what counts. The fact that no one even in the Middle East recognized them doesn't matter.

Well, Welcome to the Republic of Redsox, Taters. In my mind, I own my very own country. And damn the man who tries to take it if I make bad decisions!

redsox39

12-29-2008, 01:54 PM

Neanderthals, FTW!!!

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 01:57 PM

I love it when these Arab's have the balls to fire rockets at civilians but when shit lands on them they weep and claim vengeance. God damn PR war is all they want. IT's all about the 'call to arms' for them...

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel obliterated symbols of Hamas power on the third day of what the defense minister described Monday as a "war to the bitter end," striking next to the Hamas premier's home, and devastating a security compound and a university building.
The three-day death toll rose to 364 on Monday, with some 1,400 reported wounded. The U.N. said at least 62 of the dead were civilians, and medics said eight children under the age of 17 were killed in two separate strikes overnight. Israel launched its campaign, the deadliest against Palestinians in decades, on Saturday in retaliation for rocket fire aimed at civilians in southern Israeli towns.
Since then, the number of Israeli troops on the Gaza border has doubled and the Cabinet approved the call-up of 6,500 reserve soldiers.
The strikes have driven Hamas leaders into hiding and appear to have gravely damaged the organization's ability to launch rockets, but barrages continued. Sirens warning of incoming rockets sent Israelis scrambling for cover throughout the day.
One medium-range rocket fired at the Israeli city of Ashkelon killed an Arab construction worker there Monday and wounded several others. He was the second Israeli killed since the beginning of the offensive.
At first light Monday, strong winds blew black smoke from the bombed sites over Gaza City's deserted streets. The air hummed with the buzz of drone aircraft and the roar of jets, punctuated by airstrike explosions. Palestinian health officials said one strike killed four Islamic Jihad militants and a child.
Some Palestinians ventured outside for mourning. In northern Gaza, a father lifted the body of his 4-year-old during a funeral Monday for five children from the same family killed in an Israeli missile strike.
On Sunday, Hamas missiles struck for the first time near the city of Ashdod, only 25 miles (40 kilometers) from Israel's heart in Tel Aviv. Hamas leaders have also threatened to renew suicide attacks inside Israel. A missile from Gaza struck Ashdod again on Monday, seriously wounding two people.
On Monday, the White House released a statement saying "in order for the violence to stop, Hamas must stop firing rockets into Israel and agree to respect a sustainable and durable cease-fire."
But in Damascus, Syria, a senior exiled Hamas official said there can be no talk of a truce with Israel until the assault ends and Israel reopens the Gaza crossings.
"We need our liberty, we need our freedom and we need to be independent. If we don't accomplish this objective, then we have to resist. This is our right," the official, Abu Marzouk, told The Associated Press in an English-language interview.
A a six-month truce between Hamas and Israeli expired earlier this month, but Hamas refused to extend it, saying Israel had violated its terms.
Most of those killed since Saturday were members of Hamas security forces, though the precise numbers remain unclear. A Hamas police spokesman, Ehab Ghussen, said 180 members of the Hamas security forces were among the dead, and the U.N. said at least 62 of the dead were civilians. A rise in civilian asualties could intensify international pressure on Israel to end the offensive.
Ehud Barak, the Israeli defense minister, told parliament Israel was not fighting the residents of Gaza. "But we have a war to the bitter end against Hamas and its branches," he said. Barak said the goal is to deal Hamas a "severe blow" and that the operation would be "widened and deepened as needed."
Israel's intense bombings — more than 300 airstrikes since midday Saturday — reduced dozens of buildings to rubble. The military said naval vessels also bombarded targets from the sea.
At the United Nations, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon again condemned Israel's excessive use of force and called for an immediate cease-fire.
"The frightening nature of what is happening on the ground, in particular its effects on children — who are more than half of the population — troubles me greatly. I have continuously stressed the need for strict observance of international humanitarian law," he said.
One Israeli strike destroyed a five-story building in the women's wing at Islamic University, one of the most prominent Hamas symbols in Gaza. Other attacks ravaged a compound controlled by Preventive Security, one of the group's chief security arms, and destroyed a house next to the residence of Ismail Haniyeh, the Hamas prime minister.
Late Sunday, Israeli aircraft attacked a building in the Jebaliya refugee camp next to Gaza City, killing five children and teenagers under age 17 from the same family, Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said. In the southern town of Rafah, a toddler and his two teenage brothers were killed in an airstrike aimed at a Hamas commander, Hassanain said. In Gaza City, another attack killed two women.
Some families fled their apartments next to institutions linked to Hamas.
Suad Abu Wadi, 42, kept her six children close on mattresses in her Gaza City living room. Her husband sat with them, chain-smoking. Abu Wadi said he said nothing since seeing their neighbor carrying the body of his child, killed in an airstrike Saturday.
Gaza's nine hospitals were overwhelmed. Hassanain, who keeps a record for the Gaza Health Ministry, said that some of the over 1,400 wounded were now being taken to private clinics and even homes.
Abdel Hafez, a 55-year-old history teacher, waited outside a Gaza City bakery to buy bread. He said he was not a Hamas supporter but believed the strikes would only increase support for the group. "Each strike, each drop of blood are giving Hamas more fuel to continue," he said.
In Israel, 17 people have been killed in attacks from Gaza since the beginning of the year, including nine civilians — six of them killed by rockets — and eight soldiers, according to Israel's Foreign Ministry.
Israeli security officials have warned that the militants' range now includes Beersheba, a major city 30 miles (50 kilometers) from Gaza. Resident Mazal Ivgi, 62, said she had prepared a bomb shelter. "In the meantime we don't really believe it's going to happen, but when the first boom comes people will be worried," she said.
In Jerusalem, Israel's Cabinet approved a call-up of 6,500 reserve soldiers Sunday in apparent preparation for a ground offensive. The final decision to call up reserves has yet to be made by the defense minister, and the Cabinet decision could be a pressure tactic. Military experts said Israel would need at least 10,000 soldiers for a full-scale invasion.
The assault has sparked diplomatic fallout. Syria decided to suspend indirect peace talks with Israel, and the U.N. Security Council called on both sides to halt the fighting and asked Israel to allow humanitarian supplies into Gaza. Israel opened one of Gaza's border crossings Monday, and about 40 trucks had entered with food and medical supplies by midday, military spokesman Peter Lerner said.
Egypt also opened its borders to Gaza and allowed trucks loaded with humanitarian aid to enter the Rafah terminal Monday. It was also taking in wounded Palestinians from Gaza, with more than a dozen Egyptian ambulances waiting at the crossing.
The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, who heads a moderate government in the West Bank and is holding peace talks with Israel, issued his strongest condemnation yet of the operation, calling it a "sweeping Israeli aggression against Gaza" and saying he would consult with his bitter rivals in Hamas in an effort to end it.
Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told reporters Monday, while "Hamas is looking for children to kill."
The carnage inflamed Arab and Muslim public opinion, setting off street protests in Arab communities in Israel and the West Bank, across the Arab world, and in some European cities.
On Monday, a Palestinian stabbed and wounded four Israelis in a West Bank settlement before he was shot and wounded. It was not immediately clear if the attack was directly connected to the events in Gaza.

taters

12-29-2008, 01:58 PM

So since they were there in a make believe country before Israel was created, that is what counts. The fact that no one even in the Middle East recognized them doesn't matter.

Does 'having people residing there' make it a country, or does 'having some other people who dont live there recognize it' do so?

Your digging the 'euro-imperialism' hole deeper with that argument. It doesnt matter if they didnt have a recognizable, or democratic, or recognized government. They were there, they had community, they had the right of self determination.

You just legitimized the invasion of the americas, africa, china, and every other place on the planet western europe saw as 'populated but not developed'. In hindsight, the massive genocides, warfare and injustices of such thought are seem by most as 'bad' things.

redsox39

12-29-2008, 01:59 PM

Does 'having people residing there' make it a country, or does 'having some other people who dont live there recognize it' do so?

Your digging the 'euro-imperialism' hole deeper with that argument. It doesnt matter if they didnt have a recognizable, or democratic, or recognized government. They were there, they had community, they had the right of self determination.

You just legitimized the invasion of the americas, africa, china, and every other place on the planet western europe saw as 'populated but not developed'. In hindsight, the massive genocides, warfare and injustices of such thought are seem by most as 'bad' things.

They WERE part of a country, it just wasn't Palestine.

And looking at this, I think they were part of Judea before that...which has something to do with Jews I think...

http://www.abundant-love.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/mapofisraelbible.jpg

redsox39

12-29-2008, 02:13 PM

Here is something...

The Romans renamed Israel "Syria Palestine” in 135 AD
John finished Revelation around 95 AD
The entire history recorded in the Bible took place before 135 AD
The correct names in the Bible for the land area referred to as "Palestine”
are, Canaan. Israel. Judah, Judea, Samaria and the Promised Land
NO maps should display titles with "Palestine` on them
The New Testament uses the "Land of Israel' twice (Matthew 2.20-21) and
never uses the name "Palestine- or 'Palestinian "
The name "Palestine” was first applied to the country in modern times in 1920 when the negotiators at the San Remo Conference established the country as the Jewish National Home. Before WW1, it was an administratively indistinct area of the Ottoman Empire- During the time in between the fall of Rome and WWI The area was referred to as 'The Holy Land". 'Judea', "Zion", "The Land of Israel', "The land of the Bible", and "Syria" (part of)
In 1977, Zahir Muhsein, a PLO Executive Committee Member, was quoted as saying, “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means of continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today, there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interest demands that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism."

The Jewish connection to the land dates back 3700 years and there was always a Jewish presence in the land over many conquests and empires. Even after they were exiled to Assyria and Babylon, Jews returned to the land and rebuilt the city of Jerusalem and the temple.
-The Romans conquered the area in 63 BCE. The Hasmonean Dynasty ruled over Judea proper and Herod was appointed to govern it. At this time, it was referred to as “Judea" and was mainly inhabited by Jews and ruled by Jews.
In135 CE, Emperor Hadrian's forces suppressed a Jewish revolt and the Romans attempted to humiliate the Jews by naming the land after the Philistines, their ancient enemies. It had absolutely nothing to do with Arabs (In fact, Arabs and Philistines are always referred to in the Bible as two separate groups.)
They also changed the name of Jerusalem to "Aelia Capitolina" and gave it the status of a colony The Jews were forbidden to live in the zone in or around the city so they moved to the areas of the Galilee and Golan and also Jericho, east of the zone.
313-636 CE, the land was under Byzantine rule. Constantine built many churches and monasteries. Jews were not permitted in Jerusalem except for one day a year to mourn the destruction of the temple.
635-1099 CE, The Arab conquest of the land - although the Koran mentions the Holy Land is "divinely assigned to the people of Israel (Sura V:12,20-21), for 4 centuries Caliphs ruled from Damascus, Baghdad and Egypt, and never from Jerusalem. Jews built settlements in Jerusalem and were safeguarded by special poll and land taxes. By 1099 these taxes had increased significantly decreasing the size of the Jewish population in Jerusalem.
1099-1291, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and slaughtered most of the Jews and Muslims

1244-1516, Mamlukes win Jerusalem for Muslims and rule the area from Damascus.
1517-1917,the Ottoman Rule. The land is divided into 4 districts and administered from Damascus but ruled from Istanbul. During this time:
-In 1564 the Jewish population had risen to about 10,000 in Safed, a town in northern Galilee
-In 1566 the death of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent stimulated Jewish immigration
-In 1799 Napoleon conquers Jaffa but retreats before Acre. He makes an ineffective declaration of equal rights for Jews.
-In 1831 Egypt conquered the area but was forced to withdraw in 1840 under pressure from European allies.
-In 1844, the first census in Jerusalem shows 7120 Jews, 5760 Muslims, and 3390 Christians
-In 1860 First Jewish settlement, Mishkenot Sha'ananim, outside the Jerusalem walls.
-1882-1903, large scale immigration took place of Jews from Russia
-1904-1914, another large scale immigration of Jews from Russia and Poland
-1909- The first Kibbutz, Degania, and first modern all Jewish city, Tel Aviv
1917-British Rule begins - British conquest over Ottoman rule. British Foreign Minister, Balfour pledges support for the establishment of a National Jewish Home in Palestine. During British Rule:
-1919-1923, another large scale Jewish immigration from Russia
-1920, Jewish Defense organization founded. The National Council was set up to conduct the affairs of the Jewish community
-1922, British were granted the mandate for Palestine by the League of Nations
-1923, Anglo-Jordanian Treaty established the Emirate of East Jordan. Nearly 80% of the historic land of Palestine and the "Jewish national Home" were severed by the British to create Jordan. Jordan gained full independence in 1946
-1924, Institute of Technology founded in Haifa
-1923-1924, a large immigration of Jews from Poland
-1925, Hebrew University opened on Mt. Scopus
-1933-1939, a large immigration of Jews from Germany
-1944, the Jewish Brigade were Part of the British Forces
-1947, UN Partition Plan passed with 2/3 majority. Of the 20% of the land left after the establishment of Jordan, the plan proposed the dividing of the remaining land into two states. The Jews would be given 55% of the land, over 75% of that land was desert (Negev) and was allotted because of a significant Jewish population. 45% would become an Arab state which would include Western Galilee, Acre, Samaria, the Judean Highlands, Gaza strip and Jaffa. Jerusalem (including Bethlehem) would come under international control. This would all take effect upon British withdrawal from the land. The Arab League rejected this proposal.

-1947, Syrian delegate to the UN, Faris el-Khouri warns, "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall problems protecting the Jews in the Arab world". This
is in response to over 1000 Jews who were killed in anti-Jewish rioting throughout the1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt , Syria and Yemen.

1948- The Establishment of the State of Israel one day before the expiration of the British Mandate
-1948, Arab leaders urged Arabs in Israel to leave their homes, convincing them that their armies would destroy the new nation and they could return to their
homes as well as to the homes of the dead Jews. 30,000 Arabs left anticipating war, fleeing to neighboring Arab countries, planning to return.
-150,000 Arabs chose to stay in their homes and became full fledged citizens of Israel.
-1948, 820,000 Jews fled Arab countries under threats, taking only what they could carry. 586,000 of them were resettled in Israel without any compensation from the countries they had lived in.
-1948, Arab Palestinians asked King Abdullah of Trans Jordan to incorporate parts of what was Palestine into his kingdom which resulted in the General Armistice Agreement of April 3, 1949.
-1948, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia declare war on Israel
-Israel admitted as 59th member of United Nations
-1949, Armistice Agreements signed with Egypt and Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Jerusalem is divided under Jordanian and Israeli rule
-1951, Jordan's King Abdullah assassinated because of rumored plans for peace with Israel
-1957, Fatah founded with aim of destroying Israel, will later become PLO in 1964 (before Jews were in the “occupied territories”)
-1967, 6-Day war, Jerusalem reunited, Muslims, Christians and Jews all given access to their Holy Places for first time.
-1973, Yom Kippur war
-1979, Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, Israel gives up Sinai and parts of Gaza
-1987, Intifada begins in the Israeli administered area
-1991, Iraq launches 39 scud missiles into Israel
-1994, implement self-government to Gaza strip and Jericho
-1997, Agreement for Israeli redeployment in Hebron
-1998, Wye River Memorandum transferring 13% of the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) to the Palestinians with the assurance they will crack down on Islamic militants who target Israel
-2000, Israel concludes withdrawal of troops from southern Lebanon. Hezbollah guerillas immediately overrun Israeli allied militia
-2002, Israel deployed 20,000 troops into west bank and Gaza as a result of terrorists blowing themselves up among innocent civilians
-2005, Israel forced 8000 Jewish residents to leave their homes and turned Gaza over to the Palestinians.
-2006, Olmert’s “Convergence Plan” involves an Israeli pullout from 90-95% of the West Bank and several neighborhoods in Jerusalem by the end of 2007. This will mean the expulsion of 50,000 to 100,000 Israeli citizens from their homes and the destruction of between 50-100 Israeli towns and villages.
-2006, (July 27), The United States asks Israel to give up Shaba Farms area to Lebanon, which cover 100 square miles along the Israel/Lebanon/Syria borders.

Conclusion: Over many years, the land of Israel has been ruled by various cultures and religions; however, the only government that ever ruled from Jerusalem was and is that of the Jewish people. There has always been a Jewish population on this land and many efforts have been made to negotiate land for peace.
Between 1948 and 1967 Jordan controlled the Holy sites in Jerusalem, and it did not permit all faiths (specifically Jews) freedom to worship
-Since 1967, the Holy sites have been under Israeli control and all faiths may worship freely (Is there any Arab nation where Jews can worship freely?)
-The United States State department writes, "the law (in Israel) provides for freedom of worship and the government generally respects this right in practice."
-Former President, Jimmy Carter is noted as saying, "There is unimpeded access today (to the Holy Sites). There wasn't from 1948-1967."

“Jerusalem” appears 657 times in the Old Testament and 154 times in the New Testament.
“Jerusalem” appears 0 times in the Koran.

Conclusion: The city of Jerusalem is a central part of Jewish and Christian beliefs.
It plays a much less significant role, if any, in Muslim beliefs.

So taters...Should we give it back to the Jews since they were forced off their land? Oh wait, the Jews are in bed with Whitey, so you can't think that way!

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 02:16 PM

http://www.masada2000.org/bmand.gif From 1517-1917 Turkey's Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) controlled a vast Arab empire, a portion of which is today Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was "mandated" to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France... and "Palestine" (today's Jordan, Israel and "West Bank") was mandated to Great Britain. Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine. The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of what few Arabs there or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!

http://www.masada2000.org/transj.gif In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river. In effect, the British had "chopped off" 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian nation called Trans-Jordan (meaning "across the Jordan River"). This territory east of the Jordan River was given to Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia) who was not even an Arab-"Palestinian!" This portion of Palestine was renamed Trans-Jordan. Trans-Jordan and would again be renamed "Jordan" in 1946. In other words, the eastern 3/4 of Palestine would be renamed TWICE, in effect, erasing all connection to the name "Palestine!" However, the bottom line is that the Palestinian Arabs had THEIR "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now. Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory west of the Jordan River launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became painfully clear to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.

http://www.masada2000.org/1947mapa.gif The Palestinian Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs Palestinians.... thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces [IDF]. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgun (http://www.etzel.org.il/english/index2.html) led by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the Palestine matter over to the United Nations.
The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 25% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River.
Our Palestinian Cousins started the '48 war, and in so doing released the warlike appetites of a nation of survivors, a people with no place to run, who had repressed their rage for millennia, and had now earned full title to it!

On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian" Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that 70% of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 – perhaps 300,000 to 400,000 of them – never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jewish thugs, but because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arab Palestinians are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. Their shame is so great because in their eyes running from Jews was like running from women. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian] Arabs!
The remaining 30% either (1) saw for themselves that these Jews would fight and die for their new nation and decided to pack up and leave or (2) were driven off the land as a normal consequence of war.

When the 19 month war ended, Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became today's Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled became the seeds of the first wave of "Palestinian Arab refugees."
The Arab propagandists and apologists almost never mentioned that in 1948, Arab armies launched a war against a one-day-old Israel. Instead he focused on the main consequence of that war: the creation of Arab refugees, stating that Israel "short of genocide" expelled 800,000 of them. This not only disagrees with UN estimates of a bit over 400,000 refugees but also ignores the fact that most of the Arabs/Palestinians were encouraged to leave by the Arab World itself!

http://www.masada2000.org/1949mapa.gif The end result of the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence was the creation of a Jewish State slightly larger than that which was proposed by the 1947 United Nations Resolution 181. What remained of that almost-created second Arab Palestinian State was gobbled up by (1) Egypt (occupying the Gaza Strip) and by (2) Trans-Jordan (occupying Judea-Samaria (a.k.a. the "West Bank" of the Jordan River) and Jerusalem. In the next year (1950) Trans-Jordan formally merged this West Bank territory into itself and granted all those "Palestinian" Arabs living there Jordanian citizenship. Since Trans-Jordan was then no longer confined to one side of the Jordan River, it renamed itself simply "Jordan." In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of Palestine... called Jordan but in reality their ARAB "Palestinian state! But that was still not 100% and thus the conflict between Arab and Jew for "Palestine" would continue through four more wars and continuous Arab terrorist attacks upon the Israeli citizenry. It continues to this very day.
From 1949-67 when all of Judea-Samaria [West Bank & Jerusalem] and Gaza ... were 100% under Arab [Jordanian & Egyptian] control, no effort was EVER made to create a second Palestinian State for the Arabs living there. Surely you do not expect Israel to now provide these same Arabs with their own country when their fellow Arabs failed to do so! And isn't it curious how Arafat and his PLO (formed in 1964) discovered their "ancient" identity and a need for "self-determination" and "human dignity" on this very same West Bank ONLY AFTER Israel regained this territory (three years later in 1967) following Jordan's attempt attempt to destroy Israel! Why was no request ever made upon King Hussein of Jordan by the Arabs living on the West Bank when he occupied it? Is it logical that the PLO was formed in 1964 to regain the lands they would lose three years later in 1967? This sort of logic makes sense only to those who who have not learned that the PLO was formed to DESTROY Israel. And that is STILL their goal! A cosmetic name change from PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) to PA (Palestinian Authority) does not change the stripes on THIS tiger!
http://www.masada2000.org/Pre-67.gif Throughout much of May 1967, the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian armies mobilized along Israel's narrow and seemingly indefensible borders in preparation for a massive invasion to eliminate the State of Israel. The battle cry heard throughout the Arab world was then, as it continues to be... "Slaughter the Jews" and "Throw the Jews into the Sea!" But the Jews of Israel, remembering 2,000 years of being butchered, gassed, burned and skinned (eg. The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the Arab rampages of early Palestine and particularly the Holocaust), planned and executed a perfect pre-emptive strike against Egypt. Within two hours the Egyptian Air Force did not exist... most of its planes destroyed while still on the runways! Unaware that the Egyptians had no more air force, King Hussein of Jordan, launched his attack from the his West Bank into Israel's belly while Syrian troops prepared to descend down the Golan Heights high ground into northern Israel.
Now for some facts about "occupation." Firstly, the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians lost Gaza, the West Bank and Golan Heights (respectively) by participating in a failed attempt at genocide against the Children of Israel. Had Israel lost this 1967 defensive war, the Arab-Palestinians and their Arab allies would have raped, butchered or driven out every Israeli they could get their hands on and gobbled up all of Israel. Now, 35+ years later and despite the fact that Israel won a war BROUGHT UPON THEM, the Israelis are still willing to allow the Arab-Palestinians to have a state on much of the West Bank and Gaza if only they will stop sending their suicide/homicide bombers into the heart of Israel! (Talk about misplaced compassion!)
From 1948 to 1967, Egypt ruled Gaza, Syria ruled the Golan Heights, while Jordan ruled the West Bank. They could have set up independent Arab-Palestinian states in any or all of those territories, but they didn't even consider it. Instead, in 1967 they used the Golan Heights, Gaza and the West bank to launch a war that was unambiguously aimed at destroying Israel, which is how Israel came into possession of those territories in the first place.

http://www.masada2000.org/1967mapb.gif After ONLY six days of air, sea and hand-to-hand ground warfare, Israel defeated all three Arab armies along three separate fronts, taking control of the entire Sinai Desert from Egypt, the 37mile x 12mile Golan Heights (http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem18.htm) from Syria and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem and its Old City) from Jordan. The God of Israel was surely watching over His children! Most importantly was the return to Israel of its holy 3,000 year old capital city of Jerusalem (http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem3.htm) along the western edge of the West Bank... the same Jerusalem from which all Jews had been denied access for the 19 years (1948-1967) following Jordan's seizure and control over it following the first Arab-Israeli War of 1948-9.
Unfortunately, the world saw things differently and considered Israel an "occupier" of this disputed "West Bank" and the Gaza Strip along with the 850,000 Palestinian Arabs living there. These Arabs would refer to themselves as "refugees" and joined the masses of refugees from the first Arab-Israeli war of 1948-9. Once again Israel was forced to fight a battle for survival and, sadly, once again Palestinian [in reality, Jordanian and Egyptian] Arabs becoming refugees by their own actions, the actions of their leaders and from the actions of fellow Arabs from neighboring states! ISRAEL SCREWS UP TOO!
Israel was responsible for bringing about some of its own problems. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were packed and ready to leave following their 1967 defeat. Suddenly the victorious one-eyed IDF General Moshe Dayan persuaded them to stay. This singular act stunned no one more than the Arab enemy himself who could not believe such an incredible manifestation of Jewish madness! After all, the Arabs knew what THEY would have done to the Jews if they had won! Dayan's plan was to educate them, offer them modern medical treatment, provide them with employment both in the West Bank, Gaza AND inside Israel Proper itself ... living amongst each other in hopes of building bridges to the Arab world. Israel is now paying dearly for this typically naive "Leftist" gesture. That "bridge" led to two Intifadas and world-wide Arab-Palestinian terrorism. From a frightened and defeated enemy, these "Palestinian" Arabs under Israel's jurisdiction turned into a confident, hateful and dangerous enemy now on their way toward forming a terrorist state determined to destroy Israel!
Note: When people say Jordan (first called Trans-Jordan) is an Arab-"Palestinian" State, they are correct! Jordan accounts for 3/4 of Palestine's original land mass. Though they may call themselves "Jordanians," they are culturally, ethnically, historically and religiously no different than the Arab-"Palestinians" on the "West Bank." Even the flag of Jordan and the flag of the proposed 2nd Arab-Palestinian state on the West Bank / Gaza look almost identical. So, if the Arab-Palestinians and Jordanians think of themselves as one and the same, why should WE fall for the lie that the Arab Palestinians west of the Jordan River are any different from the Jordanian Arabs on its eastern shore?
http://www.masada2000.org/Jordanflag.GIF
Jordanian Flag
http://www.masada2000.org/plo-flag.gif
Proposed Palestinian Flag

http://www.masada2000.org/1982map1.gif Usually when one side starts a war and loses both the war AND some territory, no one on the planet would expect the winner to give back anything! This not only sounds preposterous, it IS preposterous! But the Jews (I hate to admit) had such an insane obsession of wanting the world to love them that they were willing to give back the entire Sinai Desert (oil fields, air bases and endless miles of security buffer) to Egypt for a piece of paper. Thus, in 1982 Egypt regained their Sinai and Israel lost a massive buffer against any future Egyptian aggression! Thus far, Egypt has not aggressed against Israel militarily; however, the basest, anti-Semitic vile to come out of Egypt is not unlike the worse of Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda! This 1982 Camp David Peace Accord has to be the coldest peace deal in history!
Israel still occupies Syria's Golan Heights which, prior to the 1967 war, had been by Syria used solely for terrorist incursions into and artillery bombardment upon Israel's northeastern settlements. The Golan should never be given back to Israel's most vicious enemy! And of course, Israel still "occupies" the West Bank with its ONE MILLION TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND and Gaza with its EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND "Palestinian" Arabs. Had Israel done to these Arabs what the Arabs would have done to the Jews had THEY won, she would have expelled these hostile Arabs and made it officially part of a Greater Israel! But by remaining an "occupier," Israel set herself up for a campaign of vicious propaganda, the scope and intensity of which the world has never before seen!

taters

12-29-2008, 03:07 PM

They WERE part of a country, it just wasn't Palestine.

And looking at this, I think they were part of Judea before that...which has something to do with Jews I think...

Judea HADNT EXISTED IN ALMOST 2000 years. So, jews lived there 2k years ago, that gives them indefinite rights to remain their, ad infinitem, eh? Even if they left to europe for 2000 years, blended and adopted european culture, and OTHER people remained in their former lands, their right remains, huh?

I suppose by that standard, germans were right to retake their lands in southern poland, eastern france, and southeastern europe before WW2, right? I mean, it was german once, therefore they get an indefinite right to it?

Would you say the greeks have a right to egypt also? Does the vatican legally own most of europe, being the modern representation of rome? How about the land you are standing on...even if you didnt count native americans, it either belonged to french, spanish, british or russians if its in America.

Do they have the right to reclaim it (aside from the ideas of that foolish repost thread you have going)

By your logic, they do.

Claydon

12-29-2008, 03:09 PM

gents, you waste your time. facts to taters are useless.

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 03:12 PM

Soooooo, where were these humanitarians when night clubs were being blown to shit?

98f_1230543794

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 03:15 PM

Judea HADNT EXISTED IN ALMOST 2000 years. So, jews lived there 2k years ago, that gives them indefinite rights to remain their, ad infinitem, eh? Even if they left to europe for 2000 years, blended and adopted european culture, and OTHER people remained in their former lands, their right remains, huh?

I suppose by that standard, germans were right to retake their lands in southern poland, eastern france, and southeastern europe before WW2, right? I mean, it was german once, therefore they get an indefinite right to it?

Would you say the greeks have a right to egypt also? Does the vatican legally own most of europe, being the modern representation of rome? How about the land you are standing on...even if you didnt count native americans, it either belonged to french, spanish, british or russians if its in America.

Do they have the right to reclaim it (aside from the ideas of that foolish repost thread you have going)

By your logic, they do.

Do you even know what you're saying anymore? The jews lost their shit 2k years ago. The Arabs lost their land 80 years ago. Do THEY have an equal right or is Israel wrong cause a lot less time has passed?

taters

12-29-2008, 03:15 PM

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 03:17 PM

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 03:17 PM

OMG OMG OMG OMGO MGOMGOMGOMG I WROTE IT ON AN INTERWEB. I ARE TRUE!!!!!1

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 03:17 PM

repent!

redsox39

12-29-2008, 03:20 PM

Judea HADNT EXISTED IN ALMOST 2000 years. So, jews lived there 2k years ago, that gives them indefinite rights to remain their, ad infinitem, eh? Even if they left to europe for 2000 years, blended and adopted european culture, and OTHER people remained in their former lands, their right remains, huh?

I suppose by that standard, germans were right to retake their lands in southern poland, eastern france, and southeastern europe before WW2, right? I mean, it was german once, therefore they get an indefinite right to it?

Would you say the greeks have a right to egypt also? Does the vatican legally own most of europe, being the modern representation of rome? How about the land you are standing on...even if you didnt count native americans, it either belonged to french, spanish, british or russians if its in America.

Do they have the right to reclaim it (aside from the ideas of that foolish repost thread you have going)

By your logic, they do.

lol, Sarcasam is not your strong suit. By YOUR Logic, they do. Since most were forced from their land by the Romans and the rest Slaughtered by the Crusaders...I guess they are just like the Indians...and got fucked over.

But since they are Jews and not a "darker" people, I guess it doesn't count, right?

taters

12-29-2008, 03:23 PM

lol, Sarcasam is not your strong suit. By YOUR Logic, they do. Since most were forced from their land by the Romans and the rest Slaughtered by the Crusaders...I guess they are just like the Indians...and got fucked over.

But since they are Jews and not a "darker" people, I guess it doesn't count, right?

WTF are you talking about? I never mentioned anything about 'darker' people. Hell, I posted a link showing that at least some jews are africans, it doesnt get much darker than that.

Really, cheap baiting is not going to prove your point. Now as I said to goat-
GOAT - Ill humor you :

I see what you are claiming, and your ideal is whomever can conquer the land keeps it. I already said if thats someones argument, they should come out and say it, not mask it behind some bullshit soft 'they have a magical right to the land that others dont in the same case' claim.

I totally disagree with the 'conqueror' ideology, but Im trying to get sox to admit that is what he, like you, are saying.

redsox39

12-29-2008, 03:25 PM

Redsox, the fact that Goat and Claydon are supporting your argument must at very least ring off an 'Something is wrong with this' alarm.

I mean, ones a rabid, ADMITTED anti-semite and racist, the other....is fucking CLaydon.

GOAT - Ill humor you :

I see what you are claiming, and your ideal is whomever can conquer the land keeps it. I already said if thats someones argument, they should come out and say it, not mask it behind some bullshit soft 'they have a magical right to the land that others dont in the same case' claim.

I totally disagree with the 'conqueror' ideology, but Im trying to get sox to admit that is what he, like you, are saying.

I am all for the conqueror ideology. But no one was really taken over here. Syria had to, and Britian chose to, give up their lands for the Jews.

Just because it happened to displace 600 racist people, all of whom were offered reparations and tracts of land means nothing to me.

The rest were able to go on as they had before, owning the same buildings resturants and going to the same churches they did before.

Palestine never existed. It is a figment of your Jew Hating imagination.

UNC

12-29-2008, 03:26 PM

What's it like in that head

Claydon

12-29-2008, 03:26 PM

Why so SERIOUS?!

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 03:26 PM

What's it like in that head

the *******?

Claydon

12-29-2008, 03:30 PM

Tater you little cock sucker, you can accuse me of trolling, being partisan, or any number of silly things, but don't you ever accuse me of being racist you intolerant asshole.

My sig speaks volumes.

vasili denisov

12-29-2008, 04:39 PM

So when Tater's, were the Map lines made permenent? In what year was land not considered a spoil of war?
Well, land isn't considered a legitimate spoil of war. Map lines are expected to be permanent. When Iraq invades Kuwait, it provokes international outrage, and a demand is made that it leave.
So Syria recognized Palestine? Iran? The Saudis? Iraq? Jordan?

You Sir, are an Idiot.
The arab nations wouldn't recognize that territory because that would mean recognizing the british mandate, which they considered illegitimate.

-Since 1967, the Holy sites have been under Israeli control and all faiths may worship freely (Is there any Arab nation where Jews can worship freely?)
-The United States State department writes, "the law (in Israel) provides for freedom of worship and the government generally respects this right in practice."
-Former President, Jimmy Carter is noted as saying, "There is unimpeded access today (to the Holy Sites). There wasn't from 1948-1967."

“Jerusalem” appears 657 times in the Old Testament and 154 times in the New Testament.
“Jerusalem” appears 0 times in the Koran.

Conclusion: The city of Jerusalem is a central part of Jewish and Christian beliefs.
It plays a much less significant role, if any, in Muslim beliefs.

Jerusalem is considered the most important city in Islam, along with Mecca and Medina, because of the Al-Asqa mosuqe. Using Jerusalem as a foundation for the argument of state legitimacy is a lousy idea, since Jerusalem was originally supposed to fall under international supervision, not belong to any state for a lengthy (possibly indefinite) period of time, due to the importance of the city for all three faiths.

The argument that the tolerance of religious worship is the basis for state legitimacy is also a lousy one, since there was less persecution of christians under Saddam Hussein than under the current Iraq government.

taters

12-29-2008, 05:09 PM

I am all for the conqueror ideology. But no one was really taken over here. Syria had to, and Britian chose to, give up their lands for the Jews.

Just because it happened to displace 600 racist people, all of whom were offered reparations and tracts of land means nothing to me.

The rest were able to go on as they had before, owning the same buildings resturants and going to the same churches they did before.

Palestine never existed. It is a figment of your Jew Hating imagination.

600 or 600000?

jew hating? wtf, are you fucking serious? WTF is anti-semetic about saying the people that lived where the jews were placed and subsequently took over have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION as anyone else?

Dont spout that jew hating BS, because I am the FIRST one here to call out antisemetism, whilst I have noted several times you have remained quiet. As I said earlier, conservatives LOVE jews when they are killing arabs somewhere else, but hate them when they are here and dont vote the way conservatives wish.

Also, just to give the obvious counter, if the land goes who who can conquer it, WHY TAKE THE ISRAELIS SIDE now when another party is trying to (re)conquer it? (I know the answer, but am wondering will you admit it) If israel can rightfully take the land by force, why shouldnt someone else be able to take it back?

(I still dont ascribe to that logic, but it follows with your 'spoils to the victor' ideology)

supervixen*

12-29-2008, 10:27 PM

Airsrikes on tunnels and rocket launching sites.

1st Hit : Tunnel entrance rocket launching site.

2nd and 3rd Hit : Rocket launch sites.

4th Hit : Attack on weapon storage facilities,secondary explosions caused by stored rockets at the site.

Text from source : Air operation conducted in the southern Gaza Strip, along the Philadelphi route, Hshmido (i'm guessing you mean hishmidua, which means destroyed. which will also mean "IAF aircrafts have destoyed..etc" and not "destroys aircraft") aircraft shortly before the Battle o More.. (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E://)f the Air Force about 40 tunnels of the terrorist organization Hamas, used for weapons smuggling. Haml"h Shubrh through the Tunnel Shuftztzo (again - assuming you meant shehuftzetzu, meaning "that were bombed) intended to carry out hostile terrorist activity.

Until לחשיפתן (= until these [the tunnels] were revealed), served as the Tunnel the terror organization Hamas's terrorists crossing from Egypt from (not from, but to) the Gaza Strip, and was part of ממנגנון (= system) purchasing firearms Ohhtztiidot ("u-hitztaidut" = and arming, as in one arming himself) ובחומרי (=meterials) obstruction of the organization.

Since the beginning of the operation and to this day (Sunday) morning about -210 IDF attacked targets of the terrorist organization Hamas in the Gaza Strip and Government. During the last night the IDF attacked some 30 targets, including, deposits, camps, facilities, sites and storage of the means of production Orktot (erkot = kits. meaning battle kits. you can drop the word "combat after that) combat. All Teisi air force which had left them in peace following activities.

Yesterday Sogro (you mean "shugru". which means launched) from the Gaza Strip at (=to) Israeli territory over -110 mortar rockets Oftztzot (again, you mean: u-ptzatzot. = and bombs) who most of the range of 27 kilometers.

I do not think this is the absolute stopped shooting the target of hostilities. Bkoonot have hurt their Ovmotibtzih to continue to shoot. "Said an IDF spokesman, Avi Ta"l Venyahu, ((Ben-Yehud)) in an interview a short while ago Shanik Razi Barkai's program this morning IDF Radio,"((the Razai Barkai radio program is not an IDF program/channel.)) What's on Fire. " "The IDF's mission is to bring the situation around the Gaza Strip Stiootzr (sh-tizatzer [that was a hard one to understand...] = to create) reality of another security, better over time," explained Ta"l Venyahu. "We continue to - according to the plan to carry out the mission in Gaza."

Also added Ta"l Venyahu that there is another large bank's goals and objectives: "We know exactly what we are doing harm (just doesn't make any sense in the the sentence. gonna have to go with a guess of "here") ויודעים (= and know) who needsto hurt (again, i'm assuming it originally said "where we need to strike" or "who we need to fire")." According to him, the IDF struck crowd manufacturers and Yagur, so in order to bring them to consciousness that they did not (=should not [according to what he says after that]) have continue to shoot, shoot Bmotibtzih (just no idea what that is...) to harm them, "we act to reduce the shooting as possible." In addition, he said that is not carved options of other actions that are not air.

Since the Home Front Command yesterday Prize soldiers that help each time, residents of Gaza wrapper, along with authorities require emergency action was taken to prepare the population. Home Front Command emphasizes again that there is sound guidelines Shintno (=that will be givven) days during (probably means "before") the operation

Haven't read to the last post just yet, but i'm guessing this post was a mess to whoever tried to read it and doesnt speak both english and hebrew. So, while i'll also assume you used some online translation service for this one, I offer my services in translating hebrew.

Coloured and sommented in quoted text.

Le Goat

12-29-2008, 10:32 PM

Haven't read to the last post just yet, but i'm guessing this post was a mess to whoever tried to read it and doesnt speak both english and hebrew. So, while i'll also assume you used some online translation service for this one, I offer my services in translating hebrew.

Coloured and sommented in quoted text.

It was posted by a person who lives there and spoke the language. I translated nothing.

supervixen*

12-29-2008, 10:51 PM

It was posted by a person who lives there and spoke the language. I translated nothing.
Posted here?
Coz' that was just a mess....
*shrug* well anyway.

supervixen*

12-29-2008, 10:55 PM

WHOS FUCKING LAND IS IT THEN?

THEY WERE THERE FIRST, and the israelis who were PLACED there were not FROM there.

I guarantee if Mexican Americans started a movement to reclaim the southwest as an 'aztlan' state, you guys on the right would (and actually are) bitch up a storm about that land being American, not mexican.
man......
Are you a christian or a f**king nobodythatjustwanttoshoutthathe'spoorstupidanduned ucated???!!

Lets look back shall we?
History?
oh wait... here's an idea. lets go eveer earlier - the frigging bible:
You know where Jesus was born and raised? Nazareth
You know where he was buried? in JERUSALEM
You know where he walked on water? In the Sea of Galilee (although recent studies shows it was in the Dead Sea, but nvm...)
You know where all these places are today (and were back then as well)? ISRAEL

!!!!

Now, I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't an arab..... Oh wait, SNAPZ! HE WAS A JEW!

supervixen*

12-29-2008, 11:06 PM

What matters is what existed as of the establishment of Israel. Namely, the people who lived on the land immediately before the establishment of israel.
What you forget is that there were lots of Jews living in the area now called Israel, as you said: "Namely, the people who lived on the land immediately before the establishment of Israel", only they were living under the oppression of the British Mandate and the White Book who favored the Arab settlers there.

supervixen*

12-29-2008, 11:44 PM

Jerusalem is considered the most important city in Islam, along with Mecca and Medina, because of the Al-Asqa mosuqe.
Now, don't get me wrong - as an Israeli, I've always SUPPORTED the idea of going back to the 67' boarders, except for Jerusalem which, IMO, should be under an international supervision and not of any certain state (although Jerusalem is, for me, the center and essence of my [jewish] heritage).

But really. For Muslims, Jerusalem comes fourth in holiness. Read about it a little.
(While it's first for Christians, and first and ONLY for Jews, btw.)

BIG PIZZLE

12-29-2008, 11:55 PM

I hope they all burn.

vasili denisov

12-30-2008, 12:13 AM

But really. For Muslims, Jerusalem comes fourth in holiness. Read about it a little.
(While it's first for Christians, and first and ONLY for Jews, btw.)
Remind me on the third place finisher. Najaf? Karbala? Because those sites are sacred for Shia, not Sunnis.

Whatever the ranking and position of Jerusalem for various faiths, I was rebutting the point that Jerusalem was of no importance to Muslims; arguing that it should be of less importance relative to Mecca and Medina is as pointless as arguing about the importance of crosses and surplices.

supervixen*

12-30-2008, 12:29 AM

Remind me on the third place finisher. Najaf? Karbala? Because those sites are sacred for Shia, not Sunnis.

Whatever the ranking and position of Jerusalem for various faiths, I was rebutting the point that Jerusalem was of no importance to Muslims; arguing that it should be of less importance relative to Mecca and Medina is as pointless as arguing about the importance of crosses and surplices.
My apologies. Third.
While the holiest for them is the Black Rock in Mecca and then Muhamad's temple in Medina and only then comes Jerusalem - third.
And true enough, you're right. no point arguing how holy it is for the muslims in comparison to the other two, since it could never get that high.

supervixen*

12-30-2008, 12:35 AM

This is getting stupid...
Who cares where is more holy to who??!
They should stop f**king shoot missiles at Israel!
Specially when they were supposed to be under "cease-fire" terms!!!!

taters

12-30-2008, 04:29 AM

What you forget is that there were lots of Jews living in the area now called Israel, as you said: "Namely, the people who lived on the land immediately before the establishment of Israel", only they were living under the oppression of the British Mandate and the White Book who favored the Arab settlers there.

No I didnt forget that. There were, but they were not the majority, nor by any means the controlling body.

There were whites living in the America's long before the formal establishment of the US, and even before the formal establishment of the french, british and (depending on what historians you ask) spanish colonies. Does that mean they had defacto right to rule and eradicate the other (majority) peoples who had been their much much longer?

If the United States, which has citizens living in israel, overthrew the israeli government and forced that nation to become one of its territories, would it have that right by the aforementioned standard?

They should stop f**king shoot missiles at Israel!

And israel should stop bombing their schools and hospitals, end their ethnic and religious segregation policies, and respect the fact that the fucking land they live on was stolen.

Imagine making the argument 150 years ago "those native americans should just go to canada or mexico and stop attacking OUR wagons on THEIR lands. In retaliation, we are going to attack them wherever we see them, men women and children (exactly what happened)".

Those who dont learn from the past (benefit by repeating it).

supervixen*

12-30-2008, 05:06 AM

I just have to share this with the world:
Gave Taters a diss and said he was plain stupid. So you know what his response was? "And you are either not israeli and a liar, or an anti-arab racist."
lol

Hey taters, did you know missiles launched from fagza fell in Ashdod and Yavne today?
Two minutes from my sister's house.
There's not a single military base even in of these two Israeli cities. where's your precious moral now, huh? "ohh attacking innocent people *whine whine*"

Tell you what, Israel is going to go full strength into gaza to bomb the fuck out of the hamas and their little terrorist recruits, and if any innocent arab will get hurt during the attacks because the cowerd wont even stand up and say "here i am, i did it. if you want me, fight me and leave the kids" and instead go and hide amongst them innocent children and whatnot.... - I wont shed a single tear. wont even sob.
If it was possible - I'd carpet-bomb the smelly donkey-fuckers. How bout that?

taters

12-30-2008, 05:17 AM

I just have to share this with the world:
Gave Taters a diss and said he was plain stupid. So you know what his response was? "And you are either not israeli and a liar, or an anti-arab racist."
lol

Yea, I called you anti-arab. I think given your claims in this argument and refusal to admit wrongdoing on israels part, it kinda follows. I think its funny you are too, just like I thought it was funny that a person who claims to be an Israeli supports the viewpoints of a self admitted hitlerian antisemetic on the board. That might just be crazy thoughts, and im just not aware of modern israeli viewpoints and trends on the subject of hitler.

Hey taters, did you know missiles launched from fagza fell in Ashdod and Yavne today?
Two minutes from my sister's house.
There's not a single military base even in of these two Israeli cities. where's your precious moral now, huh? "ohh attacking innocent people *whine whine*"

Sounds like you are the one whining about your poor sister. Seriously, when you invade another peoples lands, you are fucking crazy NOT to expect hostility. Segregate them from society and kill their children and you are going to get attacked. Im sorry, its human nature (yes, they are humans). Im sure the native american, northern ireland, basque and aparthied analogies Ive already given are going right over your head, so I wont explain them further to you or remind you of them.

Tell you what, Israel is going to go full strength into gaza to bomb the fuck out of the hamas and their little terrorist recruits, and if any innocent arab will get hurt during the attacks because the cowerd wont even stand up and say "here i am, i did it. if you want me, fight me and leave the kids" and instead go and hide amongst them innocent children and whatnot.... - I wont shed a single tear. wont even sob.
If it was possible - I'd carpet-bomb the smelly donky-fuckers. How bout that?

Yea, THATS not racist at all! LOL

Why dont you completly establish your peoples livenschrab[sic] and cull the entire lot of them? I mean, thats the end goal, right? You hate these people, they are different looking, have different values, a different religion, and they seem to think that since they were there first, it gives them a right to the land.

Just cull them off as you have been slowly doing for the past 50 years. Oh wait...if you did that, those big fat european reparations checks and american 'religious and moral support' checks and arms would stop coming.

Like I said, those that dont learn from the past. Israel is doing to arabs almost exactly what europeans did to them less than 100 years ago. I wonder would your opinions change were history to ever repeat itself.

Hope you enjoyed it while it lasted. Your main support in America is lagging and will soon be from the fringist religious right (even the reactionary right doesnt support you).

supervixen*

12-30-2008, 05:29 AM

Yea, I called you anti-arab. I think given your claims in this argument and refusal to admit wrongdoing on israels part, it kinda follows. I think its funny you are too, just like I thought it was funny that a person who claims to be an Israeli supports the viewpoints of a self admitted hitlerian antisemetic on the board. That might just be crazy thoughts, and im just not aware of modern israeli viewpoints and trends on the subject of hitler.
First of all - read the entire thing I wrote, you lousy self-fucker. Don't take words out of their original context.

Second - Don't you dare talking to me about Hitler, you ignorant-selfrighteous-blind-claimstoknowitallbutknowsnothing-stubborn-antisemitic-whine! My grandparents are holocaust survivers. So while my grandparents earned me the right to pronounce any racist comment i wish (even though when i do - it is ALWAYS jokingly. and yes, i throw racist comments and joke about jews too :eek:) - you, on the other hand, can go fuck yourself with supersized, red-hot-chillies-topped, stingy pineapples next to hitler in hell.
And do it all silently please. Don't wanna hear you moan in pleasure in the odd case you'd happen to like it.

Insomniac

12-30-2008, 05:35 AM

My grandparents are holocaust survivers.

This is how I know there's no God. Six million Jews die, but not one of the four that might have made the world a better place.

taters

12-30-2008, 05:35 AM

Don't you dare talking to me about Hitler, you ignorant-selfrighteous-blind-claimstoknowitallbutknowsnothing-stubborn-antisemitic-whine!

Whats a 'whine'?

My grandparents are holocaust survivers. So while my grandparents earned me the right to pronounce any racist comment i wish

You just explained the whole problem with israel. "We survived the holocaust, therefore we have a free card to ethnically cull any group we wish and europeans have to support it". Even if that group had NOTHING to do with your former oppressors.

Well, as I said you didnt apparently LEARN ANYTHING FROM THE HOLOCAUST. Notable, how racial / religious HATE, segregation, theft and murder is WRONG.

So dont tell me some fucking sob story about your grandparents when your parents and you yourself are doing the same fucking thing the nazis did to you to others for the same fucking reason. It falls on deaf ears. Ill just leave you with what I already said-

Why dont you completly establish your peoples livenschrab[sic] and cull the entire lot of them? I mean, thats the end goal, right? You hate these people, they are different looking, have different values, a different religion, and they seem to think that since they were there first, it gives them a right to the land.

Just cull them off as you have been slowly doing for the past 50 years. Oh wait...if you did that, those big fat european reparations checks and american 'religious and moral support' checks and arms would stop coming.

supervixen*

12-30-2008, 05:41 AM

I'ma leave this now because... Really?
Taters, have you even read your own posts?

Really?...

taters

12-30-2008, 05:43 AM

I'ma leave this now because... Really?
Taters, have you even read your own posts?

Really?...

I may be the only one who does. When you reply to posts, do you actually reply to them, or just post a bunch of words and insults? Can you form a logical counter sentence, or are you all hate and ad hominem?

Le Goat

12-30-2008, 07:03 AM

I'ma leave this now because... Really?
Taters, have you even read your own posts?

Really?...

This question is pretty much self explanatory. You'll learn very quickly that when he's out-smarted he goes after the 'fresh meat' that chimes in.

But alas, he's still wrong.

taters

12-30-2008, 07:27 AM

This question is pretty much self explanatory. You'll learn very quickly that when he's out-smarted he goes after the 'fresh meat' that chimes in.

But alas, he's still wrong.

Would you mind quoting her some of the verses you quoted me a few weeks ago from your favorite literature? Dont mention the author, lets see if she can figure it out.

Seriously vixen, as soon as you get the likes of this guy on your side, you should know theres some kind of flaw in your argument. Especially when talking on racial and religious matters involving jews, blacks and anyone the extreme right wing considers non-white.

Cruise a few of this idiots postings if you think I lie (i dont think you are really israeli or even jewish, so I know such recommendations will fall on deaf ears...but just thought I would offer up a proof).

Archangel

12-30-2008, 10:15 AM

(While it's first for Christians, and first and ONLY for Jews, btw.)

I'm late to this, but I call rubbish.

#1 among holy cities is Rome. I have no idea how the heretics hold it with holy places, but among the followers of the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church, Jerusalem is just one of the two other places which can be called "holy so-and so".

Cologne being the other.

And let's all pray that tater doesn't recognise my obvious irony.

Archangel

12-30-2008, 10:22 AM

Would you mind quoting her some of the verses you quoted me a few weeks ago from your favorite literature? Dont mention the author, lets see if she can figure it out.

Seriously vixen, as soon as you get the likes of this guy on your side, you should know theres some kind of flaw in your argument. Especially when talking on racial and religious matters involving jews, blacks and anyone the extreme right wing considers non-white.

Cruise a few of this idiots postings if you think I lie (i dont think you are really israeli or even jewish, so I know such recommendations will fall on deaf ears...but just thought I would offer up a proof).

You know, just because you don't agree with someone's general outlook on things, it does not mean that his every view/opinion/post/stance etc is necessiter objectively wrong.

I despise communism above all, but when a communist says that Paris is the capital of France, or that everybody who has a job should be paid enough to survive, then disagreeing with him on grounds of his communism is plain fucking stupid.
Bring forth arguments, disagree, call out, bash, troll, whatever to your heart's content.
But this "I think Goat hates black people, so disregard all his views on Israel" shit is getting seriously old.

taters

12-30-2008, 10:31 AM

You know, just because you don't agree with someone's general outlook on things, it does not mean that his every view/opinion/post/stance etc is necessiter objectively wrong.

Fair enough. That wasnt the specifics that I was pointing out Arch. I was pointing out something that you yourself have many times on these boards...goat is an antisemite.

This Vixen character is blindly running with the ball goat (among others) started rolling, specifically racial and religious intolerance towards muslims and arabs. Vixen herself expressed similar ideas.

I was asking was she aware that one of the posters supporting her viewpoints (and restrospectively she is supporting) holds the same views towards the group she claims to be a part of. She was unsurprisingly silent on that topic, hence my suspicion she is not what she claims to be.

Personal side question Arch - Do you despise communism more than fascism? Also, are you from west or east germany?

Archangel

12-30-2008, 11:18 AM

Regarding your last question:

You know what I've noticed? The counter-movement to idiocy is never intelligence, but another form of idiocy. Fascism is stupid because it was the response to dumbarse bolshevism.

Atrocity and barbarism are atrocity and barbarism, no matter under which - or whose - banner they are perpetrated. I'm a centrist first and foremost, and have no love for either extreme, especially considering that said extremes are responsible for a butcher's bill amounting to, oh, a quarter billion people in one century alone.

As for my origins, think about it: I'm 30 years old. If my father had been East German, he hardly could have had a child with a Korean - except a North Korean, maybe, and at that point, I somehow doubt that I would be here conversing on the internet about the NBA, in English, no less.

Le Goat

12-30-2008, 12:24 PM

Would you mind quoting her some of the verses you quoted me a few weeks ago from your favorite literature? Dont mention the author, lets see if she can figure it out.

Seriously vixen, as soon as you get the likes of this guy on your side, you should know theres some kind of flaw in your argument. Especially when talking on racial and religious matters involving jews, blacks and anyone the extreme right wing considers non-white.

Cruise a few of this idiots postings if you think I lie (i dont think you are really israeli or even jewish, so I know such recommendations will fall on deaf ears...but just thought I would offer up a proof).

Oh you mean the quotes that showed how you were directly copy/paste from a site when you'd said you were quoting out of the book in front of you? ahhh yes, that Mein Kampf thing that's pretty much required reading all throughout the South.

Yelram

12-30-2008, 12:38 PM

The argument that the tolerance of religious worship is the basis for state legitimacy is also a lousy one, since there was less persecution of christians under Saddam Hussein than under the current Iraq government.

Apparently you dont know how to separate the concepts of how a government addresses a particular religion, and how factions of radicals in a war torn country persecute those of different beliefs. Thats a pretty large leap of logic.

Claydon

12-30-2008, 12:40 PM

so the jews are thinking of backing down on air strikes? why? if they want to take out these assholes they need to keep pounding them to dust. sending in ground forces although legit will be ugly urban combat.

Yelram

12-30-2008, 12:47 PM

I'm late to this, but I call rubbish.

#1 among holy cities is Rome. I have no idea how the heretics hold it with holy places, but among the followers of the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church, Jerusalem is just one of the two other places which can be called "holy so-and so".

Cologne being the other.

And let's all pray that tater doesn't recognise my obvious irony.

Oh yes, lets make ROME the holiest city in Christianity, Jesus would love that. I cant understand, with all the denominations of Christianity, how someone as intelligent as you could pick the one that single handedly fucked up the entirety of Christs teaching for personal monetary gain. Go tell Jesus Rome is holy.

This whole thread is nothing but an argument about what group is more oppressed. And taters dumb enough to believe there was really such a thing as a "palestinian" prior to 1948. And that the whole concept isnt a ploy so that oil-rich arab governments can attack the only western society in their sandy shit-hole with absolutely no help from the international community.

Le Goat

12-30-2008, 12:51 PM

Oh yes, lets make ROME the holiest city in Christianity, Jesus would love that. I cant understand, with all the denominations of Christianity, how someone as intelligent as you could pick the one that single handedly fucked up the entirety of Christs teaching for personal monetary gain. Go tell Jesus Rome is holy.

This whole thread is nothing but an argument about what group is more oppressed. And taters dumb enough to believe there was really such a thing as a "palestinian" prior to 1948. And that the whole concept isnt a ploy so that oil-rich arab governments can attack the only western society in their sandy shit-hole with absolutely no help from the international community.

Well to be fair, there was such thing as 'Palestinian', but it was only referring to Palestinian Jews (the only Palestinians), which was common up until a couple decades ago.

Le Goat

12-30-2008, 12:56 PM

7f0_1230584566

Le Goat

12-30-2008, 12:56 PM

BOOOOOOOOOM!

Yelram

12-30-2008, 01:04 PM

Fair enough. That wasnt the specifics that I was pointing out Arch. I was pointing out something that you yourself have many times on these boards...goat is an antisemite.

This Vixen character is blindly running with the ball goat (among others) started rolling, specifically racial and religious intolerance towards muslims and arabs. Vixen herself expressed similar ideas.

I was asking was she aware that one of the posters supporting her viewpoints (and restrospectively she is supporting) holds the same views towards the group she claims to be a part of. She was unsurprisingly silent on that topic, hence my suspicion she is not what she claims to be.

Personal side question Arch - Do you despise communism more than fascism? Also, are you from west or east germany?

Dude.... Intolerance towards Muslims? And Arabs? I realize there are plenty of peaceful people who follow Islam, but the ones launching rockets at Israel are probably ones that there is a pretty good reason not to tolerate. You are seriously the most racist individual I have ever met. Everything in your mind comes down to race, and victimhood, and oppression. A black man could shoot a cop point blank in the face, and you would go on about how it wasnt fair, or because his great great great grandadddy was enslaved, he is forced to act out against the establishment. I dont make excuses for people, regardless of race. If I see a poor sack of shit white person leaching off welfare, and sitting around in their trailer all day watching cable TV and eating Bon Bons I call them a lazy sack of shit. If I go down to any of the projects in my town, I could find you more welfare junkies than you could shake a stick at, and I dont condone their behavior, regardless of skin color. You will make excuses for the scum of the earth, just because of your hatred for white people. YOU dont judge an individual by the content of his character, but rather the color of their skin. Black protectionism is part of the problem, and not the answer. I feel no bond with people who have the same skin color as me. Theres nothing special about them that makes me like them more, or plead their case when they do something wrong. Have you ever wondered why everyone knows your black? You've never posted a picture to my knowledge. I'm sure theres half a dozen other black people on here, that noone knows are black, because they dont go turning every thread into some sort of race, or ethnicity war. I love how you expect white people to muzzle their thoughts about black people, but for some reason you believe you have bully pulpit to tell everyone why white people are the devil. If black people would get rid of the mentality you have, and foster in other people,that an individual's problem is the fault of some group of oppressors their situation as a whole would improve drastically. And I really hope that if theres one thing Barack does, its to convince discontented black people that they have a chance to make something of themselves.

Le Goat

12-30-2008, 01:05 PM

213_1230583275

redsox39

12-30-2008, 01:11 PM

600 or 600000?

jew hating? wtf, are you fucking serious? WTF is anti-semetic about saying the people that lived where the jews were placed and subsequently took over have JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION as anyone else?

Dont spout that jew hating BS, because I am the FIRST one here to call out antisemetism, whilst I have noted several times you have remained quiet. As I said earlier, conservatives LOVE jews when they are killing arabs somewhere else, but hate them when they are here and dont vote the way conservatives wish.

Also, just to give the obvious counter, if the land goes who who can conquer it, WHY TAKE THE ISRAELIS SIDE now when another party is trying to (re)conquer it? (I know the answer, but am wondering will you admit it) If israel can rightfully take the land by force, why shouldnt someone else be able to take it back?

(I still dont ascribe to that logic, but it follows with your 'spoils to the victor' ideology)

First off, to prove you are once again an idiot, the "Jews" did not take the land by force. It was given to them BY THE OWNERS OF THE LAND. (Great Britian) In fact, 73% of it was paid for to local Arab Mayors (leaders, whatever you want to call them). If you rise up and support a group of people hell bent on wiping an entire group of people off the map...and lose...don't expect a bunch of sympathy when the victors you tried to gas come calling.

And let's not try to say who was there first. Pretty sure the Bible and Roman Documents make that perfectly clear. Do you know what the Dome of the Rock is? Do you know what is UNDERNEATH it? Fucking retard, I have no idea why I bother with you outside of it being a ton of fun to laugh at you.

redsox39

12-30-2008, 01:17 PM

Like I said, those that dont learn from the past. Israel is doing to arabs almost exactly what europeans did to them less than 100 years ago. I wonder would your opinions change were history to ever repeat itself.

I have a hard time remembering The Europeans begging for peace from the Arabs and asking for nothing in return except the right to stop living in fear. I guess I missed that History Lesson Taters.

Teach us.

Oh Teach Us, Great Black One, so that we may learn the "real" history of the world without all that white European influence brainwashing us.

Le Goat

12-30-2008, 01:19 PM

CRAWFORD, Texas – President George W. Bush and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas agreed in a telephone conversation Tuesday that if any new cease-fire agreement is to be effective in the Mideast, "it must be respected by Hamas," the White House said.
Briefing reporters at Bush's Texas ranch, spokesman Gordon Johndroe reiterated the U.S. call for the militant Hamas organization to stop firing rockets into Israel. He said that Bush talked to both Abbas and Prime Minister Salam Fayed after having a briefing by videoconference with his own top aides on the fast-paced developments in Gaza.
He said that Fayed thanked the United States for an $85 million contributions that it made this week to a special United Nations fund to assist Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank and said that Bush also called Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to thank him for his peacemaking role there.
Johndroe said that "for any cease-fire to be effective, it must be respected by Hamas." Bush's spokesman added that in the absence of such a stance, a cease-fire agreement wouldn't be worth the "paper that it's written on."
He also said that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and national security adviser Stephen Hadley had been in touch with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his staff.
Bush, Johndroe said, told both Abbas and Fayyad that the United States was concerned about the humanitarian situation.
"The president is concerned about the citizens of Gaza," he said, "but not the Hamas terrorist leaders."
"The only way that this is going to stop is if Hamas stops firing missiles" and all sides agree to a sustainable cease-fire, he added.
"Hopefully they (Hamas) will see the light and serve the people of Gaza," Johndroe said.
Earlier, the State Department said that Rice was keeping up steady U.S. calls for a "durable and sustainable" — but not necessarily immediate — cease-fire to end Israel's assault on Gaza and rocket attacks by Palestinian militants based there.
In phone calls with Israeli and Arab leaders, including Jordan's King Abdullah II, as well as other interested regional and international officials, spokesman Gordon Duguid said, she pressed for durable solution to the fighting that is not used by the radical Hamas movement to launch more attacks into Israel, the State Department said.
"She is working extremely hard to try and get both sides to agree that a cease-fire can be re-established and that that cease-fire can be fully respected," Duguid told reporters.
Others have called for an "immediate" halt to the violence, but Duguid refused to use that term, calling instead for a "durable and sustainable" cease-fire that produces "lasting peace."
"The cease-fire, in order to be productive, has to be maintained," he said. "It can't be a cease-fire in which one side uses it to launch periodic attacks."
Rice called King Abdullah on Tuesday. On Monday, she spoke Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni as well as the foreign ministers of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. In the past 24 hours, Rice has also been in touch with her British counterpart, David Miliband, and European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana twice each, along with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.
The department also formally announced the $85 million contribution for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank and urged "all concerned" to allow aid workers to distribute supplies.
"We call on all concerned to protect innocent lives and to address the urgent humanitarian needs of the people of Gaza, by facilitating necessary access into Gaza for (the U.N.) and other humanitarian organizations," it said in a statement.