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View Full Version : I wonder (a rant on the motoring industry)


Archangel
12-21-2008, 11:16 PM
I dunno, as far as I can see, American enthusiasts are among the most passionate and best informed in the world. When a subject interests them, they will do their best to find out everything they can about it. Just look at the tons of stats that American sports fans keep in their memories.

And I find that many Americans are rather passionate about cars, from memorising specs, to DIY projects, to racing them. There are certainly quite a few of them here on these boards. One should assume that the millions of American motoring enthusiasts would be aware of what is going on in the world of cars.

So I find it quite surprising when I hear people these days (when fuel economy as an issue has caught up with America) talking about how "there won't be any 50+ mpg production cars anywhere in the near future", when people outside the US don't even blink at the notion of 60 and 70 mpg these days, and 100-200 mpg cars will see production in Japan and Germany in the next 2-5 years. Most Americans apparently simply have no idea that vehicles like the VW Polo BlueMotion or the Ford (!!!) Focus TDCi Duratorq exist, sell like hot cakes, and have been doing so for damn near a decade.

I wonder why that should be so.

One culprit is probably Detroit. I mean, these were the guys who, 50 years ago, said that installing seat belts in every car would bankrupt car companies, and in the 70s/80s told people that a switch to unleaded fuel would be the death of the industry.
So it stands to reason that in order to keep people wanting and buying their petrol guzzling crap (so that they wouldn't have to spend any money on R&D), they would both try to keep motoring news from abroad under wraps, and not turn an unfriendly eye towards journalists and columnists who kept ridiculing anything smaller and more efficient than a Tahoe as, dunno, gay. If your car didn't guzzle petrol at the rate Marcus guzzled jiz... uh, Jim Beam, you were un-American. John Mellencamp would no longer sing for you.

Another factor is that the vast majority of these super-efficient cars are diesels (even though petrol engines like the TSI and FSI are starting to catch up): The last Big 3 car diesels having been the most atrocious internal combustion engines ever built by man, the diesel's image in America was pretty dreadful. The problem is that this prejudice persisted while Audis were winning Le Mans in TDIs, diesel engines were built into luxury saloons and sports coupés, and diesels hit 60% among Belgian private new car sales. The supreme irony here is that Ford and GM's international subsidiaries (Mazda, Opel/Vauxhall, Ford Europe, Subaru etc) were at the forefront of this development, while back home, the image of the diesel as an uncouth stinker was carefully cultivated. Why tell Wilbur and Myrtle that you're building the good stuff for Hans and Claire?

It also obviously didn't help that Americans could A) buy expensive V8 petrol guzzlers on credit, and B) petrol was so cheap that once you had that V8, you could afford to run it. It took oil hitting $135 and a massive credit crunch to disabuse people of the notion of this gravy train's unending nature; all of a sudden, people started noticing that maybe, the H2 WAS an abomination.


It's not all Americans, though, obviously. Part of the blame has to go to Toyota, whose hybrids re-shuffled the deck when it came to eco-friendlier cars.
"Hybrid" became both panacea and window dressing, fueled by aggressive marketing. The problem was that on the customer end, hybrids attracted a certain kind of customer, who didn't give fuel-efficient cars exactly a good name. Self-righteous, smug, and not very well informed (like about the fact that during the manufacturing process, their Prius polluted like a fucking lead smelter), they turned eco-cars into a fashion statement - and those always turn into passé fads at some point.
On the manufacturing end, much gayness happened, as well. People just attached electric motors to the same old crossovers and SUV behemoths, and because it said "hybrid" on the back, customers felt good about buying another 20-foot monster that - mirabile dictu - did 22 mpg instead of 17, which was probably the point. I mean, somebody voted a fucking V8 Tahoe the "Green Car of the Year" not too long ago, and didn't even get the irony.


And last but not least, European car makers. I don't know, maybe they got fed up at having their products belittled, ridiculed, or wilfully ignored at every turn. Maybe they fell victim to old world arrogance, and instead of trying to aggressively market their "blue" cars ("green" has gone out of fashion, apparently) on the North American market, they simply stopped caring, thus failing to secure a head start when the wind turned: Falling victim to the same quick/easy money myopia as the Big 3, they developed and marketed monster SUVs for the American market like the GL and the Q7 - and got caught with their pants down when America's love affair with the SUV went a bit cold.

So what I'm trying to say is, clusterfucks of this magnitude can never be attributed to a single culprit: It takes a lot of ostensibly smart people acting very stupidly to fuck up an entire industry...


But despite all the other factors, I honestly fail to fully grasp the callousness of Detroit. It's one thing to refuse to build superior products, but quite another to black-out all information about those who do; add to that the fact that they were actually building good cars abroad and keeping even those from their domestic public, and I can't but near despair at such short-sighted fucktardery.


Imagine if every major pharmaceutical company in the world had developed a cure for cancer, including the foreign subsidiaries of Pfizer, J&J and Merck, and those same companies kept America in the dark about it.

I dunno, can anyone here think of any other reasons?

Archetype
12-21-2008, 11:19 PM
I dunno, as far as I can see, American enthusiasts are among the most passionate and best informed in the world. When a subject interests them, they will do their best to find out everything they can about it. Just look at the tons of stats that American sports fans keep in their memories.

And I find that many Americans are rather passionate about cars, from memorising specs, to DIY projects, to racing them. There are certainly quite a few of them here on these boards. One should assume that the millions of American motoring enthusiasts would be aware of what is going on in he world of cars.

So I find it quite surprising when I hear people these days (when fuel economy as an issue has caught up with America) talking about how "there won't be any 50+ mpg production cars anywhere in the near future", when people outside the US don't even blink at the notion of 60 and 70 mpg these days, and 100-200 mpg cars will see production in Japan and Germany in the next 2-5 years. Most Americans apparently simply have no idea that vehicles like the VW Polo BlueMotion or the Ford (!!!) Focus TDCi Duratorq exist, sell like hot cakes, and have been doing so for damn near a decade.

I wonder why that should be so.

Most American car enthusiasts aren't gay?

EDIT: Oh, I see you already said that.

Infotainment
12-21-2008, 11:19 PM
The problem here is the American consumer. Car companies never had to innovate because we, Americans, rely on technology that's been around for over 100 years (the internal combustion engine) and can't stand the idea of trying something new until it's forced on us. That's my feeling at least.

Spanky
12-21-2008, 11:32 PM
Fuck American car companies. Their stubbornness borders on insanity. I'm for some sort of bailout, but only if there is a massive re-structuring. Lower wages, dissolved unions, and new more efficient use of materials and designs.

I'm so tired of these old, fat douches that feel entitled to make ludicrous sums of money for making a shitty product. If American companies refuse to adapt and change, I hope they fail miserably.

freegood
12-21-2008, 11:32 PM
Why GM is a piece of shit (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601170&refer=home&sid=ai5KpbywxqiQ)

some random portions....

Ignoring Advice

York, 70, a former Chrysler Corp. finance chief, was advising Tracinda Corp. CEO Kirk Kerkorian, who had amassed a 9.9 percent stake in GM. He told analysts in January 2006 that the time had come for the automaker “to go into a crisis mode and act accordingly.” York calculated that GM was burning through cash at a rate of $24 million a day, which meant it had about 1,000 days before it ran out -- in October 2008.

GM ignored York’s advice to reduce its number of models, including getting rid of the Hummer and Saab brands, and to cut both management and labor costs in what he called an “equality of sacrifice.” He resigned nine months later, in October 2006, frustrated by the board’s unwillingness to take action. Only after York left did GM decide to sell Hummer. Now it’s talking about getting rid of Saab and Saturn, as well as Pontiac.

“Three years ago I thought GM had the time and financial resources to save itself,” York, now CEO of Harwinton Capital LLC, said in an interview. “Now I’m not so sure. Who’s responsible? Top management and the board of directors.”

Auto Bubble

Although York’s prediction was prescient -- GM has told Congress it will run out of cash by the end of the year if it doesn’t get relief -- what no one could foresee then were two developments that sealed GM’s fate: a run-up in gasoline prices and a credit-market freeze that followed Lehman’s collapse.

The frozen credit markets signaled the end of an era of easy money that delayed GM’s day of reckoning. In a parallel to the housing bubble, GM and its Big Three brethren enjoyed a decade of artificially inflated sales. Finance companies did a booming business in subprime auto loans, a rarity in 2000, which accounted for 18 percent of new-car financing by 2005, according to CNW Market Research in Bandon, Oregon. And the automakers’ own subsidiaries offered low-interest financing that helped move cars off dealers’ lots.

That did nothing to stem GM’s steady loss of market share in the U.S., from 30 percent in 2000 to 22 percent today. It did help keep the industry’s annual U.S. sales at or near record levels, topping 17 million vehicles.

Managed for Cash

“They were trying to delay the draconian measures they needed to take,” said Ashvin Chotai, managing director of Intelligence Automotive Asia Ltd., a consulting firm in London.

GM gave the bubble a boost with a zero percent “Keep America Rolling” financing campaign started eight days after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Sales jumped 42 percent in October. The program got the company even more hooked on incentives than it had been in the 1980s. “Keep America Rolling” was followed by “Employee Pricing,” “Red Tag Specials” and other low-interest and rebate deals that made discounting the norm.

“It was a great initiative to prop up the market, but it’s a trap they fell into,” said Chotai, who estimates that annual U.S. auto sales would have fallen to 13 million to 14 million without incentives. “Nobody believes list price anymore, so you’ve destroyed your pricing power and you’ve diluted your brand.”

That’s only one way GM executives were short-sighted. It’s not that Wagoner, who received an MBA from Harvard University in 1977, doesn’t know management. It’s that between dwindling liquidity and its sky-high fixed costs, the company was increasingly managed for cash, even at the expense of profit.

...


GM continued to build unprofitable models because it needed the cash to meet financial obligations, such as a roughly $5 billion annual health-care bill for workers and retirees. In 2007, even though GM posted a $38.7 billion net loss, it managed to generate $189 million in free-cash flow. That’s equivalent to burning the furniture in order to stay warm.

Archangel
12-21-2008, 11:37 PM
Fuck American car companies. Their stubbornness borders on insanity. I'm for some sort of bailout, but only if there is a massive re-structuring. Lower wages, dissolved unions, and new more efficient use of materials and designs.

I'm so tired of these old, fat douches that feel entitled to make ludicrous sums of money for making a shitty product. If American companies refuse to adapt and change, I hope they fail miserably.

They are the class of the world at marketing, though.


When did convincing people that diarrhea was chocolate take the place of producing actual chocolate?

freegood
12-22-2008, 01:26 AM
Well, one can get away with murder by slapping Diet or Healthy on foods....

mongo
12-22-2008, 04:03 AM
i'm diet mongo!


*waits for rep to clear 100k*

Mustard
12-22-2008, 04:11 AM
Is there any proof that big oil companies were in bed with the Big 3? Because if they were, I could easily see why the Big 3 would keep churning out cars that get horrendous gas mileage in the US, while also being able to manufacture fuel effiicient vehicles aborad in countries with far stricter emission regulations/fuel economy standards.

Archangel
12-22-2008, 05:40 AM
I have no proof, but everything clearly points to that. Who would have had to spend money on unleaded fuel besides car companies? Who stood to profit from petrol guzzling behemoths? Who could have made money from light trucks/SUVs not being held to emissions/efficiency standards?

THIS is an interesting read, btw. (http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Environment/E_Overview/E_Overview4.htm)

Mustard
12-22-2008, 05:49 AM
I have no proof, but everything clearly points to that. Who would have had to spend money on unleaded fuel besides car companies? Who stood to profit from petrol guzzling behemoths? Who could have made money from light trucks/SUVs not being held to emissions/efficiency standards?

THIS is an interesting read, btw. (http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Environment/E_Overview/E_Overview4.htm)
I also have no proof. But this "conspiracy theory" is one akin to the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Everyone knows its there, but nobody wants to talk about it.

I mean lets face it. Car and oil companies are natural for each other. Like bullet and gun companies are, if ever an apt analogy existed this is the one. It would be more ludicrous to assert they are not in bed with one another.

The Batman
12-22-2008, 09:33 AM
Maybe they really just don't care. (The people running the car companies.) Maybe they really are just about making money and don't want to risk that. For some reason, industry in general in America is kinda weary about new things and good things. No one ever wants to take that risk. Think about the movie and music industry for example... All they do is feed the populous cookie cutter garbage for most of the year, with a few waning examples of creativity and the "new" kind of thing. And who thinks this is a good idea? The people at the top of the totem pole. For some reason they never see the big picture, (no pun intended) and try to put out a good product. It all comes down to greed. What’s the worst part about it is that people don’t hold these companies any kind of responsible for the shit they make. Arch you bring up a great point, about Ford making better cars overseas. If Congress had half a brain, they would be asking the same question of the automobile industry. It’s sad that with this industry taking a dive it’s taking down an entire city and football team with it.

Swurgen
12-22-2008, 02:35 PM
You have to think of something else that America is great at...bureaucracy. All the fat cats just sit in their offices thinking of ways to justify their existence and 6-7 figure salaries on a daily basis rather than trying to better the company. In a bureaucracy, nobody wants to take any bold new initiatives because to do so would have your name attached to it. Would you rather sit there in your office doing the bare minimum and nothing out of the box or out of line with what the company has already been doing for years and continue to collect massive checks...OR...boldly take the initiative and attach your name to something that could fail miserably and jeopardize your status at the country club? Then if you do have a great idea, the wheels of bureaucracy are so stuck in place that it would take so long to implement the idea that the window would have passed already. Why do all cars have to look so bland unless they are specialty low production models? You can hire kids right out of design school to 'coolify' a design and aim that design right at younger buyers. Why did it take until the Taurus to decide that rounded edges are ok. Show some balls. Come out with new designs more frequently in low numbers in case they don't sell and when they do sell then you build that line.

They have outsiders doing their research for them for free! When you design a car...read all of the magazine reviews of them. Now with the internet you can even read customer reviews all day. Some criticisms will be fair and some not. Some will be doable and some just cost prohibitive. When they all agree that something is a problem, FIX IT!!! You might not be able to do it that next year but do it eventually.

The bloated bureacracy complaint kind of reminds me of our government.


EDIT: (Add)

Maybe they really just don't care. (The people running the car companies.) Maybe they really are just about making money and don't want to risk that. For some reason, industry in general in America is kinda weary about new things and good things. No one ever wants to take that risk. Think about the movie and music industry for example... All they do is feed the populous cookie cutter garbage for most of the year, with a few waning examples of creativity and the "new" kind of thing. And who thinks this is a good idea? The people at the top of the totem pole. For some reason they never see the big picture, (no pun intended) and try to put out a good product. It all comes down to greed. What’s the worst part about it is that people don’t hold these companies any kind of responsible for the shit they make. Arch you bring up a great point, about Ford making better cars overseas. If Congress had half a brain, they would be asking the same question of the automobile industry. It’s sad that with this industry taking a dive it’s taking down an entire city and football team with it.

American bureaucracy (biz and gov) has no faith in the American people. They are so afraid of the cunty vocal minority and letter writing mid westerners wiht nothing better to do with their lives that they are afraid to take chances. They feel that the sheep aren't bright enough or else too scared of change to accept something different. Their procedures are so set in stone that it costs too much to come out with something new until you market research it to death to the point where all the newness is taken right out of it and you end up with a minimal change from the shit you already had.