Will Mexico Collapse?

[Le Goat]

In the next 8 years, will it?

MEXICO CITY – Indiscriminate kidnappings. Nearly daily beheadings. Gangs that mock and kill government agents.
This isn't Iraq or Pakistan. It's Mexico, which the U.S. government and a growing number of experts say is becoming one of the world's biggest security risks.
The prospect that America's southern neighbor could melt into lawlessness provides an unexpected challenge to Barack Obama's new government. In its latest report anticipating possible global security risks, the U.S. Joint Forces Command lumps Mexico and Pakistan together as being at risk of a "rapid and sudden collapse."
"The Mexican possibility may seem less likely, but the government, its politicians, police and judicial infrastructure are all under sustained assault and pressure by criminal gangs and drug cartels," the command said in the report published Nov. 25.
"How that internal conflict turns out over the next several years will have a major impact on the stability of the Mexican state."
Retiring CIA chief Michael Hayden told reporters on Friday that that Mexico could rank alongside Iran as a challenge for Obama — perhaps a greater problem than Iraq.
The U.S. Justice Department said last month that Mexican gangs are the "biggest organized crime threat to the United States." National security adviser Stephen Hadley said last week that the worsening violence threatens Mexico's very democracy.
Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff recently told The New York Times he ordered additional border security plans to be drawn up this summer as kidnappings and killings spilled into the U.S.
The alarm is spreading to the private sector as well. Mexico, Latin America's second biggest economy and the United States' third biggest oil supplier, is one of the top 10 global risks for 2009 identified by the Eurasia Group, a New York-based consulting firm.
Mexico is brushing aside the U.S. concerns, with Interior Secretary Fernando Gomez-Mont saying Wednesday: "It seems inappropriate to me that you would call Mexico a security risk. There are problems in Mexico that are being dealt with, that we can continue to deal with, and that's what we are doing."
Still, Obama faces a dramatic turnaround compared with the last time a new U.S. president moved into the White House. When George W. Bush was elected in 2000, the nation of 110 million had just chosen Vicente Fox as president in its fairest election ever, had ended 71 years of one-party rule and was looking forward to a stable, democratic future.
Fox signaled readiness to take on the drug cartels, but plunged them into a power vacuum by arresting their leaders, and gangs have been battling each other for territory ever since.
Felipe Calderon, who succeeded Fox in 2006, immediately sent troops across the country to try to regain control. But soldiers and police are outgunned and outnumbered, and cartels have responded with unprecedented violence.
Mob murders doubled from 2007, taking more than 5,300 lives last year. The border cities of Juarez and Tijuana wake up each morning to find streets littered with mutilated, often headless bodies. Some victims are dumped outside schools. Most are just wrapped in a cheap blanket and tossed into an empty lot.
Many bodies go unclaimed because relatives are too afraid to come forward. Most killings go unsolved.
Warring cartels still control vast sections of Mexico, despite Calderon's two-year crackdown, and have spawned an all-pervasive culture of violence. No one is immune.
Businesses have closed because they can't afford to pay monthly extortion fees to local thugs. The rich have fled to the U.S. to avoid one of the world's highest kidnapping rates. Many won't leave their homes at night.
The government has launched an intensive housecleaning effort after high-level security officials were accused of being on the take from the Sinaloa cartel. And several soldiers fighting the gangs were kidnapped, beheaded and dumped in southern Mexico last month with the warning: "For every one of mine that you kill, I will kill 10."
But the U.S. government is extremely supportive of the Mexican president, recently handing over $400 million in anti-drug aid. Obama met briefly with Calderon in Washington last week and promised to fight the illegal flow south of U.S. weapons that arm the Mexican cartels.
While fewer Americans are willing to drive across the border for margaritas and handicrafts, visitors are still flocking to other parts of Mexico. And the economy seems harder hit by the global crisis than by the growing violence.
The grim assessments from north of the border got wide play in the Mexican media but came as no surprise to people here. Many said the solution lies in getting the U.S. to give more help and let in more migrant workers who might otherwise turn to the drug trade to make a living.
Otherwise the drug wars will spill ever more heavily into America, said Manuel Infante, an architect. "There is a wave of barbarity that is heading toward the U.S.," he said. "We are an uncomfortable neighbor."

[Hanover Fist]

A country with probably more resources both quantity and variety than arguably any other on the face of the Earth, not to mention one of the best climates and yet they remain one of the biggest cesspools on the planet. Mexico should be one of wealthiest, advanced utopias on the planet and yet their people leave by the 10's of thousands every year to migrate elsewhere.

[Genius]

I thought Mexico was poised to take over part of the US when we collapse. Fuck that lying Russian dude!

[billy1980]

Speaking of Russia, thats another country that has alot of natural resources but is still shitty, and the weather is bad.

[Le Goat]

A country with probably more resources both quantity and variety than arguably any other on the face of the Earth, not to mention one of the best climates and yet they remain one of the biggest cesspools on the planet. Mexico should be one of wealthiest, advanced utopias on the planet and yet their people leave by the 10's of thousands every year to migrate elsewhere.

There's a reason they call them Mexicant's

[taters]

A country with probably more resources both quantity and variety than arguably any other on the face of the Earth, not to mention one of the best climates and yet they remain one of the biggest cesspools on the planet. Mexico should be one of wealthiest, advanced utopias on the planet and yet their people leave by the 10's of thousands every year to migrate elsewhere.

Decades of cheap sales of natural resources, centuries of government change, overpopulation, and being a competing neighbor to the worlds largest economy have kept them in bad shape.


Honestly, compared with the rest of the world, MX is not that bad off. The only really 'well off' nations are western europe, japan, canada, the US, Japan, China, soon/maybe russia, australia and new zealand. Everywhere lies in a upper-third world economy (costa rica, belize, turkey, chile), lower third world economy (brazil, columbia, south africa), and shit storm (zimbabwe, kosovo, north korea).

[Hanover Fist]

Decades of cheap sales of natural resources, centuries of government change, overpopulation, and being a competing neighbor to the worlds largest economy have kept them in bad shape.


Honestly, compared with the rest of the world, MX is not that bad off. The only really 'well off' nations are western europe, japan, canada, the US, Japan, China, soon/maybe russia, australia and new zealand. Everywhere lies in a upper-third world economy (costa rica, belize, turkey, chile), lower third world economy (brazil, columbia, south africa), and shit storm (zimbabwe, kosovo, north korea).

The fact that the worlds largest economy is next door to them should make it even easier for them to be a superpower. With all the natural resources they have, you'd think they'd be a little better off than just a borderline 3rd world country, considering that they don't really even have to worry about external threats to their nation like most countries these days.
Obviously the number one problem is government corruption and that their military and police have basically become factions of the drug traffickers which is sort of a self reinforcing problem for them that will be very hard to fix.
Mexico is extremely nationalistic making it very difficult to deal with them as far as making policy changes that are needed to correct what ails them.
I also think their constitutional law that limits foreign investment in energy really hurts them as they are unable to fully utilize much of their resources due to a lack of funds from corruption and social programs.

[nuclearjew]

I blame the Mexicans.

[Le Goat]

I blame the Mexicans.

*Mexicants

[mongo]

oh noez! where will i get my chicklets!?!

[Will-Kill]

As long as mexcains come to America and open Mexican Resturants then the best of Mexico is already here.

[Archetype]

The fact that the worlds largest economy is next door to them should make it even easier for them to be a superpower. With all the natural resources they have, you'd think they'd be a little better off than just a borderline 3rd world country, considering that they don't really even have to worry about external threats to their nation like most countries these days.

Really. That's part of the reason Canada does as well as it does. Then again, we developed along side yous guys, and for whatever reason had diplomacy at the top of our goals. Whereas Mexico something something [I don't know much about Mexico].

[Insomniac]

Mexico's problems are that its Indians survived. Part of the reason the U.S. and Canada did so well is that all the Injuns were killed, totally assimilated, or pushed into corners. We took their land and kept it for ourselves. Anglos play for keeps, don't you know.

Meanwhile, the Spanish conquered it with a feudal mindset. You come in, conquer a place, and a few people get and stay rich by having a permanent underclass work the land. Slavery, serfdom, peon, they're all pretty much equivalent. Hell, the hacienda system lasted into the 20th century. Imagine the Southern U.S. as the predominant system for the rest of the nation and you'll have Mexico.

Hell, the Mexican Independence wasn't so much a revolution as a counter-revolution to keep the status quo and the ruling class in power. By the time genuine revolution came, it was so fucking bloody the population declined during the war. That would be like 8 million people dying during the American Civil War.

Finally, I think the wealth of resources is one of the main reasons they've had so much trouble. It's like the petro-states we have today. If you can get rich pulling something out of the ground and fund the top class, what incentive do you have to change? So what if 95 percent of the country lives in grinding poverty? You have a Leer jet, or whatever the equivalent would be in the 17th century.

[Claydon]

Having lived 150 miles or less from mexico, having known countless of mexican immigrants Mexico's primary problem is the corruption, which makes the arab nations look down right law abiding. Mexico is an EXTREMELY wealthy country and not just in resources but in capital as well. So, for all of you leftist fags on here that say "90% of the US wealth is held by 1% of the population" is a wonderful myth many of you like banter about, look to mexico where that is the reality.

[IdiotBrain]

Last time I went to Mexico, there were troops with g3a3's stationed just past the border, and an APC with a fucking 40mm grenade launcher strapped to the thing.

WTF? you ask? Martial law was instituted in certain border towns because the cartels[mexican mafiosos] were killing or bribing the local police.

I was drunk and asked on of the troops if I could take a look at his g3, he didn't seem amused, and I swear to god I heard the click of a safety as I turned to walk away.

Fuck all that mess.

[Archangel]

Decades of cheap sales of natural resources, centuries of government change, overpopulation, and being a competing neighbor to the worlds largest economy have kept them in bad shape.

Yeah, that's why France, the Netherlands, Denmark and Switzerland, being competing neighbours to Europe's largest economy, are on the brink of starvation. That's why South Korea, competing neighbour to both of East Asia's largest economy, is a third world shithole.

Honestly, compared with the rest of the world, MX is not that bad off. The only really 'well off' nations are western europe, japan, canada, the US, Japan, China, soon/maybe russia, australia and new zealand. Everywhere lies in a upper-third world economy (costa rica, belize, turkey, chile), lower third world economy (brazil, columbia, south africa), and shit storm (zimbabwe, kosovo, north korea).

Japan twice? What about South Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, which are all better off than significant parts of Europe?

[taters]

Mexico's problems are that its Indians survived. Part of the reason the U.S. and Canada did so well is that all the Injuns were killed, totally assimilated, or pushed into corners. We took their land and kept it for ourselves. Anglos play for keeps, don't you know.


You cant be serious. I agree about the hacienda system, but not the natives. The natives for the most part didnt survive, they just were absorbed at an extremely high rate to spanish culture and spanish men.

Yeah, that's why France, the Netherlands, Denmark and Switzerland, being competing neighbours to Europe's largest economy, are on the brink of starvation. That's why South Korea, competing neighbour to both of East Asia's largest economy, is a third world shithole.


SO you are saying France and denmark are actually thrid world nations like zimbabwe? I dont think thats a popular theory.

Japan twice? What about South Korea, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, which are all better off than significant parts of Europe?


It wasnt a complete list. There are almost 300 countries in the world.

[Morfin]

I was drunk and asked on of the troops if I could take a look at his g3, he didn't seem amused, and I swear to god I heard the click of a safety as I turned to walk away.

So you didn't just make up your GMF username, it is an apt descriptor, huh?

[Grieves]

Mexico hasn't collapsed?

[redsox39]

So you didn't just make up your GMF username, it is an apt descriptor, huh?


Well you would think after spending time in Israel, the Mexican's didn't seem so scary...

[Archetype]

SO you are saying France and denmark are actually thrid world nations like zimbabwe? I dont think thats a popular theory.
http://www.blogadilla.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/nakedyogademo.jpg

[TylerDurden]

It wasnt a complete list. There are almost 300 countries in the world.

not sure where those other 100+ countries are hiding (your ass maybe?), but there's only 193 recognized sovereign nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries).

[Archetype]

There's 192 members in the UN? That doesn't seem right.

[Genius]

Having lived 150 miles or less from mexico, having known countless of mexican immigrants Mexico's primary problem is the corruption, which makes the arab nations look down right law abiding. Mexico is an EXTREMELY wealthy country and not just in resources but in capital as well. So, for all of you leftist fags on here that say "90% of the US wealth is held by 1% of the population" is a wonderful myth many of you like banter about, look to mexico where that is the reality.
You have at least one "dude, just shut the fuck up you fucking idiot" post per 24 hour period. You have met your quota. Anything on top of this one is bonus.

[Da Raider]

As an American of Mexican heritage, living 90 minutes from the border with many relatives living in Mexico, I can tell you what the number one problem troubling Mexico is; It is populated with Mexicans.

Seriously, it's the entirely corrupt government. They fuck over the working class and they collude with the drug cartels. Duh.

[taters]

not sure where those other 100+ countries are hiding (your ass maybe?), but there's only 193 recognized sovereign nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries).

Listen asshole, I wasnt quoting exact numbers. If I did, that post would be several times larger than it was. How about you leave the point dodging and thread hijacking to the pros, eh?

The point of the post was Mexico is bad, but not that bad...its probably even when you look at the majority of the countries in the world and the stark contrasts in economics of the people of the world.


Seriously...talk about nit picking the irrelevant...your counter has nothing to do with anything. Douche move.

[Le Goat]

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico (Reuters) – Shadowy vigilante groups are threatening Mexico's drug gangs near the U.S. border in retaliation for a wave of murders and kidnappings that killed 1,600 people in this city alone last year.
One group in the border city of Ciudad Juarez pledged last week to "clean our city of these criminals" and said their mission was to "end the life of a criminal every 24 hours."
The emergence of vigilantes would be a new twist to a vicious drug war that killed 5,700 people in Mexico last year and forced the United States to give hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to the Mexican government.
Ciudad Juarez, a manufacturing center in the desert across from El Paso, Texas, was the scene of the worst violence in 2008 as drug cartels fought each other as well as staging kidnappings for ransom and extorting businessmen.
In an e-mail to news organizations, the "Juarez Citizen Command" said it was funded by local businessmen sick of abductions and extortion in the city, home to factories that export goods to the United States.
While none of the city's 1,600 in the last year were undoubtedly the work of vigilantes, a body was found on January 7 with a message next to it that read: "This is for those who continue extorting."
And six men in their 20s and 30s were shot dead and dumped together in Ciudad Juarez in October with a cardboard sign reading: "Message for all the rats: This will continue."
Drug gangs often leave threatening messages with the bodies of their victims, but security officials said those two incidents might have been the work of vigilantes.
Another group, "Businessmen United, The Death Squad" put a video on Internet site YouTube last June threatening to go after kidnappers and criminals in Ciudad Juarez, the biggest city in Mexico's Chihuahua state. The video is no longer on YouTube.
"FACELESS, ANONYMOUS"
State officials in Chihuahua said they were investigating who was behind the messages.
"We cannot tolerate the presence of these type of faceless, anonymous groups," said Manuel del Castillo, a spokesman for the state government.
Retiring CIA chief Michael Hayden said last week that Mexico's drug violence was possibly a greater problem than Iraq for President-elect Barack Obama. The U.S. Justice Department also says Mexican gangs are one of the biggest threats to the United States.
Mexican President Felipe Calderon has sent tens of thousands of troops and federal police to battle drug gangs but the violence has become worse since he took office in 2006.
At least two other groups calling themselves vigilantes have sent statements to news organizations in the past two months, one in the northern state of Sonora bordering Arizona, and the other in the Pacific state of Guerrero, home to the beach resort of Acapulco.
In Ciudad Juarez, some residents say they would welcome vigilantes. "That way they would stop the gangs, the mafia. People are leaving here because of so many murders," said David Hinojosa, 30, who shines shoes in the city.
The city has been rocked by gun battles and beheadings by rival gangs fighting over smuggling routes into Texas, despite the presence of around 3,000 troops and federal police.
But local lawmakers say encouraging vigilantes is a mistake. Some residents question whether soldiers are moonlighting as hitmen for drug gangs, a charge the army denies.
"People's reactions are understandable. But this is not the route we should take to solve things," said Andreu Rodriguez, an opposition lawmaker and the head of security issues in Chihuahua's state legislature.

[Le Goat]

Listen asshole, I wasnt quoting exact numbers. If I did, that post would be several times larger than it was. How about you leave the point dodging and thread hijacking to the pros, eh?

The point of the post was Mexico is bad, but not that bad...its probably even when you look at the majority of the countries in the world and the stark contrasts in economics of the people of the world.


Seriously...talk about nit picking the irrelevant...your counter has nothing to do with anything. Douche move.


hahahhahaahahahahahahhaahahahahahahhaha


A. He did leave the 'point dodging' to the pro

B. Stop digging a deeper whole.

C. ******

[Coco]

I’ve lived in Mexico for several years now, so I’ve been exposed to the good and bad Mexico has to offer.

Regarding kidnappings, the city that has gotten the most international media coverage is Ciudad Juarez, but this is something that happens throughout the whole country. In Mexico City, the kidnapping rate is just ridiculously high. In fact, just two weeks ago a gang tried to kidnap my best friend. As a girl, people always tell me not to drive alone at night and shit like that. Coming from Italy that was a huge cultural shock, cause I’m so used to walking everywhere alone, without looking over my shoulder every 5 minutes.

Everyone is sick and tired of the kidnappings and they are desperately asking for the death sentence to kidnappers. The general feeling is that the death sentence would be a deterrent for criminals and potential criminals. In other words, the people are so desperate and frustrated with the State’s inability to handle the problem of insecurity that they’ve gone to the extreme.

Going beyond the ethical and moral issues that usually arise with the death sentence, I’m just not sure how that would even be helpful. In my opinion, Mexico is simply in no place to handle the responsibility of the death sentence. The prison system is a joke: drug lords and other criminals can easily operate inside the prison - in fact, many of them orchestrate kidnappings and “attacks” from prison. Either that or they just pay their way out.

So who says it would even work? Would you give such a corrupt and fractured system that power, when even the politicians and public servants are working with the criminals? I believe that Mexico would be better off getting the prison system in order and getting rid of corrupt policemen before thinking about something like the death sentence.

[Le Goat]

SLUT

[Hanover Fist]

It doesn't seem like the drug lords and gangs have any qualms about administering the death penalty. In fact, I would say it is probably the punishment for about 100% of the crimes committed against them, or even when there isn't a crime committed against them for that matter.

[Coco]

SLUT

Manwhore

[Coco]

It doesn't seem like the drug lords and gangs have any qualms about administering the death penalty. In fact, I would say it is probably the punishment for about 100% of the crimes committed against them, or even when there isn't a crime committed against them for that matter.

Agreed. In fact, many people are happy about the war between the cartels cause they're just killing each other.
However, kidnappers do not always belong to a particular cartel. More often than not, they're just kids in gangs - even family groups. The motivation is that they're likely to earn more money from kidnapping than getting a full-time job. So you're dealing with a whole bunch of other structural issues. It's a mess.

[TylerDurden]

hahahhahaahahahahahahhaahahahahahahhaha


A. He did leave the 'point dodging' to the pro

B. Stop digging a deeper whole.

C. ******

pwnt.

[Pox]

A deeper whole?

Lol

[Claibo]

Well, I was in Mexico drinkin, got arrested and subsequently thrown in the back of police paddy wagon b/c I was standing next to an olympic pool sized puddle in the street... The Federales said I pissed in public pointing to the giant puddle of water... fuckers. They let me go 2 hours later after I managed to convince them I didnt have any $$ and my buddy paid them 20.00. This incident indicates a much bigger problem and a good reason to stay out of that country when drinking.

[taters]

It doesn't seem like the drug lords and gangs have any qualms about administering the death penalty. In fact, I would say it is probably the punishment for about 100% of the crimes committed against them, or even when there isn't a crime committed against them for that matter.

Should the MExican government run itself by the rules akin to the Drug lords? That never works, even when combating them. The guys in charge just end up replacing them (ala Columbia and El Salvador).

[TylerDurden]

Should the MExican government run itself by the rules akin to the Drug lords? That never works, even when combating them. The guys in charge just end up replacing them (ala Columbia and El Salvador).

at this point the mexican gov't could do whatever the fuck it wanted, including doing nothing at all. it doesn't matter anymore. it's only a matter of time before the citizens themselves take matters into their own hands, and it looks like this is what's happening judging by what goat's posted.

[taters]

at this point the mexican gov't could do whatever the fuck it wanted, including doing nothing at all. it doesn't matter anymore. it's only a matter of time before the citizens themselves take matters into their own hands, and it looks like this is what's happening judging by what goat's posted.

They have already done that several times before. Hence the [b[frequent government changes[/b] I was talking about. Mexico has had at least 3 civil wars.

The thing is, that doesnt usually help a nation get out of an economic slump. It tends to have the opposite effect.

[gillkonam]

I think maybe the more pertinent question is: is there any hope for their economy at all? I mean, the current collapse in finance had to have hit the ruling class there far worse than the Tequilla crisis ever did, simply because it was so systemic and so focused on otherwise stable pools of leveraging. Couple that with the drastic reduction in remittances from the resulting loss of labor in construction AND other industries for workers here (some have cited this system as the largest source of income for those states) with the drastic loss of economy stimulus stemming from fun-seeking kegermeisters on this side of the border and we have a wonderful environment for good ol' fashion drug game being the only game in town. Hell, there may be a point when the illegal organ trade gets so bad that they will really start kidnapping OVER HERE and dragging people back for a little slice of the kidney. I really feel for people down there including you Coco. With Slim poking around at the Times, I am also wondering if he isn't trying to buy some whitewashing power. The newspaper wires and the interwebs are about the only places one can find semi-honest info about the shit going on down there here in the states.

[Swurgen]

What they need is a man with a plan.

http://blog.joins.com/usr/a/g/agony00/1/creasy_3216.jpg

[hatepoppy]

I thought Mexico was poised to take over part of the US when we collapse. Fuck that lying Russian dude!
nahh man, itll be their need for law and our need of resources/cheap labor that leads to the planned conclusion that we need each other, thus facilitating the establishment of the nau.

[Hanover Fist]

nahh man, itll be their need for law and our need of resources/cheap labor that leads to the planned conclusion that we need each other, thus facilitating the establishment of the nau.

Hmmmm, that would mean that our big oil companies would finally be able to exploit Mexico's vast oil fields and suddenly Canada would become extraneous. Well, except for giving us talent like Celine Dion and Paul Shaffer of course. We could just do a secret NAU deal with Mexico and then 'accidently' forget to tell Canada about it I guess.

[hatepoppy]

Hmmmm, that would mean that our big oil companies would finally be able to exploit Mexico's vast oil fields and suddenly Canada would become extraneous. Well, except for giving us talent like Celine Dion and Paul Shaffer of course. We could just do a secret NAU deal with Mexico and then 'accidently' forget to tell Canada about it I guess.canada's got the market cornered on wide open space tho. wont be long till even montana is crowded.

[Hanover Fist]

canada's got the market cornered on wide open space tho. wont be long till even montana is crowded.

I heard once that the entire population of the Earth could fit into the province of Saskatchewan and it's population density would still not crack the top 5 densest population areas on the Earth. The question is, how long is their growing season in Canada?

[hatepoppy]

I heard once that the entire population of the Earth could fit into the province of Saskatchewan and it's population density would still not crack the top 5 densest population areas on the Earth. The question is, how long is their growing season in Canada?
how long is their fishing season? and is there nots untapped fossil fuels in the canader?

[Hanover Fist]

how long is their fishing season? and is there nots untapped fossil fuels in the canader?

They have tar sands, but those are very expensive and labor intensive to make useable. Mexico has plenty of oil for our needs. The fishing is why we have Alaska, it's like all the good parts of Canada without the French.


Oh yeah the one major part...Mexico is fucking warm, that's all I want right now. It's been weeks since we've even come close to getting above freezing here.

[eleveneighteen]

Let's just make it one big fuckin' state. Part of the good ol' USA.

What would be a good name for a Mexico City NFL Franchise?

[Coco]

They have already done that several times before. Hence the [b[frequent government changes[/b] I was talking about. Mexico has had at least 3 civil wars.

The thing is, that doesnt usually help a nation get out of an economic slump. It tends to have the opposite effect.

What frequent changes are you talking about? Mexico had the same political party in power for 70 years until Vicente Fox came along.
And 3 civils wars??? That's simply not true.

[Claydon]

What frequent changes are you talking about? Mexico had the same political party in power for 70 years until Vicente Fox came along.
And 3 civils wars??? That's simply not true.

you will excuse taters, he is pretty much a schitzophrenic...most days he believes he is jesus.

[Rover]

What frequent changes are you talking about? Mexico had the same political party in power for 70 years until Vicente Fox came along.
And 3 civils wars??? That's simply not true.Well, there was the Mexican War for Independence 1810-1821

Then there were wars for power in the mid 1800's (the Reform War among them), which led to Maximilian I, and then he was deposed.

And then there was the Mexican Revolution in 1910, which led to the PRI taking over.

So, Mexico has had frequent government changes and civil war, whether you want to call them civil wars or revolutions is up for debate.

[Coco]

Well, I thought we were talking about contemporary politics, hence my comment.

Firstly, as you said, the Mexican war for Independence was precisely that: a war for independence; meaning they were fighting against a foreign invader.

Secondly, the Crown was offered to Maximilian. But yes, the conflict that followed can be considered the closest thing to a civil war between the liberals and conservatives.

Thirdly, the Mexican Revolution was mainly directed against Porfirio Diaz, who had been in power for something like 11 years or even more. A dictator, yes, but he did bring about political stability for a long while. And the conflict that followed was a revolution, not a civil war.

It doesn’t seem to me that Mexico was especially politically unstable, considering its history as a colony. The 19th and 20th centuries were a period of political reorganization in general, so Mexico was doing what pretty much everyone was doing as well.
Present day politics in Mexico are quite stable. Just compare them to Italy’s.

[redsox39]

In the next 8 years, will it?

Can we Just say "Hopefully"?

[taters]

Well, there was the Mexican War for Independence 1810-1821

Then there were wars for power in the mid 1800's (the Reform War among them), which led to Maximilian I, and then he was deposed.

And then there was the Mexican Revolution in 1910, which led to the PRI taking over.

So, Mexico has had frequent government changes and civil war, whether you want to call them civil wars or revolutions is up for debate.

Dude, did you just agree with me?

[Rover]

Yes, but I still disagree with your politics. And sometimes your historical facts get distorted by opinion. But it's hard to disagree that Mexico has had significant struggles with forming a stable government, and that they've fought at least 3 civil wars.

[Le Goat]

MEXICO CITY – President Felipe Calderon's war on drug trafficking has led to his own doorstep, with the arrest of a dozen high-ranking officials with alleged ties to Mexico's most powerful drug gang, the Sinaloa Cartel.
The U.S. praises Calderon for rooting out corruption at the top. But critics say the arrests reveal nothing more than a timeworn government tactic of protecting one cartel and cracking down on others.
Operation Clean House comes just as the U.S. is giving Mexico its first installment of $400 million in equipment and technology to fight drugs. Most will go to a beefed-up federal police agency run by the same people whose top aides have been arrested as alleged Sinaloa spies.
"If there is anything worse than a corrupt and ill-equipped cop, it is a corrupt and well-equipped cop," said criminal justice expert Jorge Chabat, who studies the drug trade.
U.S. drug enforcement agents say they have no qualms about sending support to Mexico.
"We've been working with the Mexican government for decades at the DEA," said Garrison Courtney, spokesman for the Drug Enforcement Administration. "Obviously, we ensure that the individuals we work with are vetted."
Agents who conduct raids have long suspected Mexican government ties to Sinaloa, and rival drug gangs have advertised the alleged connection in banners hung from freeways. While raids against the rival Gulf cartel have netted suspects, those against Sinaloa almost always came up empty — or worse, said Agent Oscar Granados Salero of the Federal Investigative Agency, Mexico's equivalent of the FBI.
"Whenever we were trying to serve arrest warrants, they were already waiting for us, and a lot of colleagues lost their lives that way," Salero said.
The U.S. government estimates that the cartels smuggle $15 billion to $20 billion in drug money across the border each year.
Over the last five months, officials from the Mexican Attorney General's office, the federal police and even Mexico's representatives to Interpol have been detained on suspicion of acting as spies for Sinaloa or its one-time ally, the Beltran Leyva gang. An officer who served in Calderon's presidential guard was detained in December on suspicion of spying for Beltran Leyva.
Gerardo Garay, formerly the acting federal police chief, is accused of protecting the Beltran Leyva brothers and stealing money from a mansion during an October drug raid. Former drug czar Noe Ramirez, who was supposed to serve as point man in Calderon's anti-drug fight, is accused of taking $450,000 from Sinaloa.
Most of such tips are coming from a Mexican federal agent who infiltrated the U.S. embassy for the Beltran Leyva drug cartel. No such infiltrators have been found for the Gulf cartel, which controls most drug shipments in eastern Mexico and Central America. Sinaloa controls Pacific and western routes.
The DEA's Courtney agrees that there has been a greater crackdown on the Gulf Cartel in both the U.S. and Mexico, with more than 600 members of the gang arrested in September. But he declined to answer questions about Mexico favoring Sinaloa.
Calderon has long acknowledged corruption as an obstacle to his offensive, which involved sending more than 20,000 soldiers to battle drug trafficking throughout the country. The U.S. aid plan includes technology aimed at improving the way Mexico vets and supervises police.
The president vows to create a "new generation of police," consolidating agencies under Public Safety Secretary Genaro Garcia Luna, who heads all federal law enforcement.
That's what worries Granados Salero and other agents. So many of Garcia Luna's associates are under suspicion of Sinaloa ties that many wonder how he could not have known.
Calderon has publicly backed Garcia Luna, calling him "a man of great capacity."
"Obviously, if there was any doubt about his honesty, or any evidence that would call into question his honesty, he would certainly no longer be the secretary of public safety," the president said recently.
But some see the alleged Sinaloa ties with Garcia Luna's lieutenants as an old tactic used widely under the Institutional Revolutionary Party, or PRI, which ruled Mexico for 71 years with a tight fist. Officials in the past preferred to deal with one strong cartel rather than many warring gangs — what Calderon faces now. More than 5,300 people died in drug-related slayings in 2008.
"I fear that Secretary Garcia Luna ... is working on the idea that once one cartel consolidates itself as the winner, that is, Sinaloa, the violence is going to drop," said organized crime expert Edgardo Buscaglia, who tracks federal police arrests and has studied law enforcement agencies' written reports.
Garcia Luna has denied being involved in corruption. He has acknowledged that authorities in the past chose the path of managing cartels. But in an interview with the newspaper El Sol, he said that approach only strengthens the gangs in the long run.
Others say the high number of Sinaloa infiltrators is a reflection of the two cartels' very different styles.
The Gulf cartel is led by military-trained hit men so violent that they reportedly planned to attack even U.S. law enforcement agencies.
"They don't necessarily try to build networks of corruption. They prefer networks of intimidation," said Monte Alejandro Rubido, who leads Mexico's multi-agency National Security System.
Sinaloa, on the other hand, appears to use bribery and infiltration at least as much as its gunmen. Cartel leader Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman bribed his way out of a Mexican prison in 2001, provoking suspicions the government was on his side.
Many Mexicans worry about giving so much money and power to a still corrupt force. Of more than 56,000 local and state police officers evaluated between January and October last year, fewer than half met the recommended qualifications, Calderon reported to Congress in early December. No similar numbers are available for federal police.
Agents like Granados Salero wonder who is in charge of police integrity.
"We agents find out about a lot of things," he said, "but who can we turn to?"

[Claydon]

money well spent?

[Le Goat]

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico – Death froze his exhausted face. The attackers lashed or punctured nearly every part of his body. Then they cut off the dead man's head, wrapped it in a plastic grocery bag and dumped it with his body between two tractor-trailers on a city street.
As with most murders in Ciudad Juarez, police found no witnesses, no weapons. Only the battered corpse on the steel coroner's table carries clues to who he was and how he died.
"Every organ speaks," says Dr. Maria Concepcion Molina, who gently removes packing tape from the head of her third decapitated victim in a week. The dead man's slack mouth and eyes still seem to pray for relief.
Bodies stacked in the morgues of Mexico's border cities tell the story of an escalating drug war. Drug violence claimed 6,290 people last year, double the previous year, and more than 1,000 in the first eight weeks of 2009.
Each bullet wound or broken bone details the viciousness with which the cartels battle a government crackdown and each other. Slain policemen lie next to hit men in the rows of zipped white bags.
Workers toil up to 12 hours a day, sometimes seven days a week, to examine the remains. When Tijuana coffin makers fell behind during the December holidays, the morgue there crammed 200 bodies into two refrigerators made to hold 80.
"There are times here when there are so many people, so many cadavers, that we can't keep up," says the Tijuana morgue director, Federico Ortiz.
In Ciudad Juarez, the border city with the most killings, Molina prepares to make a dead man talk. Investigators press each finger of the headless body on a pad for fingerprints.
Molina guesses from his face he was probably in his 30s.
She carefully lays out his bloodied clothing on a red plastic sheet. She pieces together his knife-shredded T-shirt picturing a wanted poster for Mexican revolutionary Pancho Villa. She lays the tags showing the brands of his jeans and boxers flat before snapping photographs of each.
"Sometimes we show family these photos, and they'll say it's his clothing but it's not him," says Molina, a 41-year-old mother of five. "It's a defense mechanism."
Ciudad Juarez, a city of 1.3 million across the border from El Paso, Texas, has a modern, estimated $15 million morgue and crime lab thanks to international support after another notorious spate of killings — the Women of Juarez. More than 400 women have been raped, strangled and dumped in the desert since 1993.
The morgue has seven doctors, including two hired in the last two weeks.
Still, the procession of the dead is staggering. Plans are under way to double the morgue's size next year.
Last year, 2,300 victims of violence and accidents were wheeled into the pungent, formaldehyde-infused morgue, where doctors work to Mexican love ballads and the whir of electric saws cutting through bone. More than 460 bodies arrived in January and February this year.
The morgue has stopped taking other death cases.
Nearly 40 percent of the dead last year tested positive for cocaine or marijuana. About 20 percent were never claimed by their families, many out of fear. Cardboard boxes with bloodstained cowboy boots, cell phones and bulletproof vests are stacked to the ceiling in the crime lab.
Drug traffickers know investigators use the cadavers to track killers. They have raided morgues and carted off bodies at gunpoint as shaking workers in blue smocks stood helpless.
Soldiers now guard morgues when a well-known trafficker is suspected among the dead.
Tijuana morgue workers show photographs to families identifying bodies from behind a protective window. Ortiz has asked for bulletproof glass, as well as fencing around the one-story building.
From 4:30 p.m. to 9 p.m. on a recent Tuesday, 17 bodies rolled into the Juarez morgue, including the city police force's second-in-command and three other officers.
"If this continues, we're going to have another record year easily. We're headed toward 2,000 deaths within 10 months," says Hector Hawley, the administrator of the crime analysis and forensics unit, as workers in white haz-mat suits crane-lift body bags onto steel shelves. "We need a lot more help."
In a white shower cap and blue medical robe, the bespectacled Molina checks her victim's neck, but there is no bruising. His head was cut off after he died.
"He's been decapitated, but I still have to determine the cause of his death," she says.
Her assistant, Ivan Ramos, 20, matches the head to the body. He holds it in place as Molina shoots a photograph, using a paper identifying the man by number to cover the gap in his neck. That makes it easier for loved ones who have to see the picture.
The doctor notes the rest of his injuries: broken left tibia, broken right humerus, severely bruised and cut abdomen, bruised left thigh, stabbed right thigh, sliced chin, knife punctures on lower right calf, lashes on his back. He has no distinguishable traits — no moles, no scars, no tattoos.
Molina unwraps what appears to be a tourniquet on his left biceps. She speculates it was put there by the killers to stop the bleeding from a stab wound so he would not die before they finished their torture. His knees are bruised. He was forced to crawl at one point.
Molina holds the head on the examining table while Ramos shaves a section to measure a knife wound. He cuts the skin, saws open the skull, then photographs the brain before scooping it out and wiping away a dark pool of blood.
"That dark wine color on the brain, that shouldn't be there," Molina says. "That's a cerebral hemorrhage. Although they didn't crack his skull, he was beaten hard enough that it caused this."
Molina sees the carnage as a mound of medical evidence to be explored, a mechanism that helps her leave the gory images locked in the morgue when she heads home. Other doctors have quit after a few days.
She keeps looking, unsatisfied that the head injury caused the man's death.
Ramos drills through the rib cage to examine the organs. He started at the morgue as a volunteer when he was 17. While he couldn't eat at first, he's glad it led to a job in a recession-wracked city.
Molina examines the man's heart.
"Look, he had a heart attack," she says, pointing to white pearling on the organ. "But if I put heart attack as the cause, it will remove the responsibility from those who did this because it will be considered a natural death. So I'm going to leave that as a last resort."
She lifts each organ, noting how healthy the man was. No kidney stones, little fat, a healthy appendix, a normal-sized head.
"This could have been a productive person, and they are all like that, young men between 18 and 36 years old," she says, shaking her head.
After an hour and a half, she decides he was asphyxiated by the packing tape over his mouth and nose. His lungs are collapsed. His nails are a purplish blue.
Ramos gets a needle and twine, places the brain in the man's body cavity as standard procedure and sews up his chest. He closes the skull and replaces its skin.
"He's in good shape for being identified," Molina says.
As they zip the remains into a body bag to store in the refrigerator, the doors open and workers wheel in another slain man.
The next day, a stone-faced woman arrives among the families who gather daily outside the morgue, hoping to find missing loved ones.
A worker shows her photographs of the man's clothes. She says they belonged to her brother, 23-year-old Victor Alfonso Picaso, according to the morgue.
"She seemed to already know what she was coming for," says morgue psychologist Luis Mejia. "She just wanted to recover the body and get this over with."

[Archangel]

When shit got like that in Palermo in the late 70s/early 80s, Italy sent in their #1 anti-terror strategist, the guy who had successfully fought the Red Brigades...

Who was promptly gunned down with his wife in his car.

[Hanover Fist]

This weekend Mexico sent like 5,000 troops and Federal Police into Ciudad with APC's and assorted heavy weapons to fight the drug cartels. This is shaping up to be quite the war, seeing as how the cartels are probably more heavily armed and can act as guerillas and terrorists.
I saw some of the footage of the troops rolling into Ciudad and flying in on helicopters, you would never suspect it was a country deploying its own military within its borders. How fucked up.
They also said that cartels are starting to start trouble in southern Mexico where they had traditionally not ever been active in, and deaths had started to rise there as well.

[Claydon]

This weekend Mexico sent like 5,000 troops and Federal Police into Ciudad with APC's and assorted heavy weapons to fight the drug cartels. This is shaping up to be quite the war, seeing as how the cartels are probably more heavily armed and can act as guerillas and terrorists.
I saw some of the footage of the troops rolling into Ciudad and flying in on helicopters, you would never suspect it was a country deploying its own military within its borders. How fucked up.
They also said that cartels are starting to start trouble in southern Mexico where they had traditionally not ever been active in, and deaths had started to rise there as well.


5,000.... yah I saw those picutres and that story. I have 50 pesos that says 1/2 of those fuckers are on the take.

[Le Goat]

I can't wait until we start deploying our National Guard (when they come home) down there. I say that 'cause that's exactly what a lot of people along the border have wanted for a while, even made news during the last election. But, of course, the resident spics took time out of their lazy ass days to form mass protests in major cities which scared washington to death. NOW LOOK YOU FUCKING IDIOTS.

[Cope]

Mexico's sub par standard of living can be attributed to overpopulation which can be attributed to Catholicism.

Blame Cortes and his amigos the Friar and the Padre.

[Le Goat]

you're an idiot.

neg

[Archangel]

Mexico's sub par standard of living can be attributed to overpopulation which can be attributed to Catholicism.

Blame Cortes and his amigos the Friar and the Padre.

Yeah, that's why Italy, one of the most Catholic countries in the world, has the second lowest fucking birth rate in Europe, and the fourth lowest in the world.

I'd really like to know how living without a brain is, one day.

[Morfin]

Mexico's sub par standard of living can be attributed to overpopulation which can be attributed to Catholicism.

So much idiocy condensed into just one sentence. I respect the conciseness of your retarded comment.

[Claydon]

holy shit, what rock did that asshole crawl out from?

[Morfin]

Dear Claydon:

*from under. You can't crawl out of a rock.

Sincerely,

Grammar Man

[Archangel]

More like Grandpa Man.

[Claydon]

Dear Claydon:

*from under. You can't crawl out of a rock.

Sincerely,

Grammar Man

sigh...i can't win these days...im just too wasted on my back meds right now :(

[taters]

I can't wait until we start deploying our National Guard (when they come home) down there. I say that 'cause that's exactly what a lot of people along the border have wanted for a while, even made news during the last election. But, of course, the resident spics took time out of their lazy ass days to form mass protests in major cities which scared washington to death. NOW LOOK YOU FUCKING IDIOTS.

Fucking racist moron. Why the fuck would we ever put our NG down there? Standard texas white trash mentality.

[Le Goat]

Fucking racist moron. Why the fuck would we ever put our NG down there? Standard texas white trash mentality.

Aside from the fucking Cartels EASILY crossing the border and going after families in Laredo? How about you fucking read up on the shit going on down there and THEN make a comment.


Fucking velcro-heads and your idiocy

[taters]

Aside from the fucking Cartels EASILY crossing the border and going after families in Laredo? How about you fucking read up on the shit going on down there and THEN make a comment.


Fucking velcro-heads and your idiocy

You swarthy pig fucker. The cartels have ALWAYS BEEN working through laredo/san antonio up i35, or from El Paso due west. We havent sent troops into mexico since pancho fucking villa, and he was raiding US towns.

[Claydon]

Fucking racist moron. Why the fuck would we ever put our NG down there? Standard texas white trash mentality.


your stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

what is racist about defending our borders from the potential onslaught of refugees and gang warfare that is starting to spill over into the border states.

go suck michael moores cock and fuck off.

[Le Goat]

You swarthy pig fucker. The cartels have ALWAYS BEEN working through laredo/san antonio up i35, or from El Paso due west. We havent sent troops into mexico since pancho fucking villa, and he was raiding US towns.

Have you even read up on what this thread is about? Have you even seen ANY fucking stats on wtf is goin' down? FUUUUUUUUUUCKKKKKKKINNNNNNNNGGGGGG RRRRREEEEEEEEAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDDD


not hard boy

[taters]

your stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

what is racist about defending our borders from the potential onslaught of refugees and gang warfare that is starting to spill over into the border states.

go suck michael moores cock and fuck off.

Aside from the fucking Cartels EASILY crossing the border and going after families in Laredo? How about you fucking read up on the shit going on down there and THEN make a comment.




Learn what 'national security means' then get back to me, retard.

1- The US sending troops to Mexico would be viewed as either an unwelcome partial occupation (with our public image what it is now) or an invasion. Could we take mexico in offense? Yes. Would it be bad, hurt us economically, and probably be even more risky than iraq? Yes.

2- The US isnt going to invade mexico because mexican cartels are using american citizens to bring drugs into the US (as they always have), any more than it would have invaded and occupied canada during prohibition.

Whats more, to stop the full supply chain, we would have to invade every nation from mexico to Colombia.

You neocons do love your expensive, racist, pointless war waging, dont you? Just beginning to get out of one, and youre already gunning for another closer, more difficult and equally unfounded one.

[Le Goat]

Learn what 'national security means' then get back to me, retard.

1- The US sending troops to Mexico would be viewed as either an unwelcome partial occupation (with our public image what it is now) or an invasion. Could we take mexico in offense? Yes. Would it be bad, hurt us economically, and probably be even more risky than iraq? Yes.

2- The US isnt going to invade mexico because mexican cartels are using american citizens to bring drugs into the US (as they always have), any more than it would have invaded and occupied canada during prohibition.

Whats more, to stop the full supply chain, we would have to invade every nation from mexico to Colombia.

You neocons do love your expensive, racist, pointless war waging, dont you? Just beginning to get out of one, and youre already gunning for another closer, more difficult and equally unfounded one.


who the fuck said anything about Invading Mexico, dumbfuck?

[Claydon]

Learn what 'national security means' then get back to me, retard.

1- The US sending troops to Mexico would be viewed as either an unwelcome partial occupation (with our public image what it is now) or an invasion. Could we take mexico in offense? Yes. Would it be bad, hurt us economically, and probably be even more risky than iraq? Yes.

2- The US isnt going to invade mexico because mexican cartels are using american citizens to bring drugs into the US (as they always have), any more than it would have invaded and occupied canada during prohibition.

Whats more, to stop the full supply chain, we would have to invade every nation from mexico to Colombia.

You neocons do love your expensive, racist, pointless war waging, dont you? Just beginning to get out of one, and youre already gunning for another closer, more difficult and equally unfounded one.


YOU DUMB FUCK.

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SENDING TROOPS INTO FUCKING MEXICO.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT TROOPS ON THE FUCKING BORDER.

DIE FUCKING DIE..WHY WONT YOU JUST FUCKING DIE.

oh that is right, you are a cockroach, which means you can live for many hours after having your head removed.

[taters]

who the fuck said anything about Invading Mexico, dumbfuck?


1- The US sending troops to Mexico would be viewed as either an unwelcome partial occupation (with our public image what it is now) or an invasion. Could we take mexico in offense? Yes. Would it be bad, hurt us economically, and probably be even more risky than iraq? Yes.



Didnt the McLennan County Meth Factory and Public School district teach you how to read english?

The national guard isnt going to be able to do SHIT about the cartels, unless it was on the OTHER side of the border. Building a fence doesnt work, putting cameras dont work, having armed rednecks on watch duty doesnt work. The drugs will flow as long as their is a market demand.

You neo-corporatist capitalist righties should know this.

[Le Goat]

*waits for tater to edit out him thinking we meant us invading mexico*

[taters]

*waits for tater to edit out him thinking we meant us invading mexico*

Didnt the McLennan County Meth Factory and Public School district teach you how to read english?

The national guard isnt going to be able to do SHIT about the cartels, unless it was on the OTHER side of the border. Building a fence doesnt work, putting cameras dont work, having armed rednecks on watch duty doesnt work. The drugs will flow as long as their is a market demand.

You neo-corporatist capitalist righties should know this.

[Le Goat]

Didnt the McLennan County Meth Factory and Public School district teach you how to read english?

The national guard isnt going to be able to do SHIT about the cartels, unless it was on the OTHER side of the border. Building a fence doesnt work, putting cameras dont work, having armed rednecks on watch duty doesnt work. The drugs will flow as long as their is a market demand.

You neo-corporatist capitalist righties should know this.

God damn you fail at anything related to security. Cartel's cross into the U.S. to attack anyone that threatens them. There was a fucking special on NatGeo (if i'm not mistaken) about how a Cartel took a girl and then her parent's went after the Cartels. One night after the Dad went on AMW he got an anonymous call saying 15 members of the cartel crossed the border and were coming after his wife (at home). She got out and they forced the guys back along the border. Hit men. Assassins. Hundreds of murders ALREADY THIS YEAR. Yeah, um, we get your hate for Texas but this shit is going on in Tijuana and is now spreading to other places. BORDER AGENTS BACKED UP BY NATIONAL GUARD = Better Security for American Citizens.


Oh wait, I forgot, it doesn't fit in your parties lines. Oh but hey, guess what (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090308/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_mexico_9)

[Hodge]

I don't even have to read this entire thread (although I have read a bit) or know what's going on in full detail to know what Goat was talking about.
Your NG would be aiding the Mexican government and beefing up your borders. An invasion would be uncalled for and against America's best interests.
It would be in America's best interests in helping Mexico maintain/regain its stability and if 6000+ people have been killed in the past year in a drug war it's probably in Mexico's best interests as well.

Will Mexico crumble? Only if it refuses the aid the US will no doubtedly offer in the near future.

[taters]

God damn you fail at anything related to security. Cartel's cross into the U.S. to attack anyone that threatens them.....

Yeah, um, we get your hate for Texas but this shit is going on in Tijuana and is now spreading to other places. BORDER AGENTS BACKED UP BY NATIONAL GUARD = Better Security for American Citizens.


Oh wait, I forgot, it doesn't fit in your parties lines. Oh but hey, guess what (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090308/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_mexico_9)


Whoo diddly fucking do. Regardless of wtf they do, YOU WONT STOP THEIR ACTIVITIES on this side of the border, and you cant go into mexico to deal with them.

Im not saying theres nothing that can be done. Im saying the way to deal with them is decriminalization (and taxation) of their products.

I have NO fucking love for those fucking cartels, or their sureno/mexikami minions. But I know as long as their is a market untapped, this shit will continue.

Ask Colombia. Even if the government were to luck up enough to capture and kill 90% of all of their to members, the bottom 10% would gladly assume the risk and take over.


You dont cut a tree down by the twigs.

[Le Goat]

Whoo diddly fucking do. Regardless of wtf they do, YOU WONT STOP THEIR ACTIVITIES on this side of the border, and you cant go into mexico to deal with them.

Im not saying theres nothing that can be done. Im saying the way to deal with them is decriminalization (and taxation) of their products.

I have NO fucking love for those fucking cartels, or their sureno/mexikami minions. But I know as long as their is a market untapped, this shit will continue.

Ask Colombia. Even if the government were to luck up enough to capture and kill 90% of all of their to members, the bottom 10% would gladly assume the risk and take over.


You dont cut a tree down by the twigs.

you really have no clue how to deal with these types.. go to the last page and read the last article I posted. Taxing won't do a god damn thing, they hire those that kill for nothing. They decapitate to terrorize. I'm not saying we fucking take out these douche's, that's Mexico's job, I'm looking out for the people along the border that have to deal with this shit on a daily basis.

[Archangel]

Or, you know, the US could just legalise drugs...



*ducks*

[mongo]

i think that the us should just start poisoning the drugs they seize, then put them out on the street. not like "make you sick poison", more like "kill you on the fucking spot poison. seriously. after enough deaths, people will do one of 2 things. quit cause they can and live, or keep using cause they can't stop and eventually get some tainted shit. win/win.

[Le Goat]

i think that the us should just start poisoning the drugs they seize, then put them out on the street. not like "make you sick poison", more like "kill you on the fucking spot poison. seriously. after enough deaths, people will do one of 2 things. quit cause they can and live, or keep using cause they can't stop and eventually get some tainted shit. win/win.

It wouldn't be too hard to spread a rumor of a rival Cartel seizing a few tons of BLow and mixing some cyanide in. It'd be awesome to see what happens

[mongo]

fuck that. don't just say you mixed in some cyanide, fucking do it.

[Le Goat]

fuck that. don't just say you mixed in some cyanide, fucking do it.

i'm game so long as SiG gets a good kilo and spreads it around town... and uses his own product

[Le Goat]

lulz, just read your rep

[mongo]

lulz, just read your rep

great minds...

[Le Goat]

great minds...

PECKERS... UNITE!

[Kerjack]

http://forum.gorillamask.net/showthread.php?p=340446

[Septic_Porpoise]

i just wanted to vote on the poll, but there was no "i hope so" option.

[taters]

you really have no clue how to deal with these types.. go to the last page and read the last article I posted. Taxing won't do a god damn thing, they hire those that kill for nothing. They decapitate to terrorize. I'm not saying we fucking take out these douche's, that's Mexico's job, I'm looking out for the people along the border that have to deal with this shit on a daily basis.

I know a LOT more than you think, and a great deal more than you. Lets not forget I lived in the part of that shitpit far closer to laredo and the border. You wont stop it from flowing as long as their is a demand.

DECRIMINALIZE THEIR PRODUCT, and their ability to sell here disappears via competition and regulationary market forces.

Everybody wins.

I guess you arent one of those Ron Paul wingnuts so-popular in those parts.

[Le Goat]

I wish I could live in your Utopia. Is it full of Afro-Sheen? cause dat be wack yo!

[Archangel]

I know a LOT more than you think, and a great deal more than you. Lets not forget I lived in the part of that shitpit far closer to laredo and the border. You wont stop it from flowing as long as their is a demand.

DECRIMINALIZE THEIR PRODUCT, and their ability to sell here disappears via competition and regulationary market forces.

Everybody wins.

I guess you arent one of those Ron Paul wingnuts so-popular in those parts.

If you think that America is going to legalise cocaine within our lifetimes, you should really stop using it.

[taters]

Yes a capitolist utopia world where common fucking sense over rides useless aggression.

You dont want to solve the drug problem (especially if you were a cop). It would likely put you and 1/2 of the political wing you support out of business/office. Hence why it has NOT been solved.

If you think that America is going to legalise cocaine within our lifetimes, you should really stop using it.


Coke? No. Mary Jane? Probably.

There are ways around cocaine legalization anyway. Its doesnt have to be buy/sell/have/use = illegal. And definitely not to the degree to which it is.

The difficulty and risk of its importation are what determine a great deal of its pricing (along with collusion of cartels). Make it legal to use or be in possession of (to a certain extent), and the financial gain for the risk of importing it dissappears.


I cant believe you guys have me spouting out Ron Paul economics.

[Septic_Porpoise]

i agree. legalize heroin.

[Le Goat]

Yes a capitolist utopia world where common fucking sense over rides useless aggression.

You dont want to solve the drug problem (especially if you were a cop). It would likely put you and 1/2 of the political wing you support out of business/office. Hence why it has NOT been solved.

I love it when you get goin'... you seem to really think a) we care what the fuck you think. b) the complete bullshit spewing from your mouth is gospel and finally, c) you can solve any fucking problem on Earth.


Please enlighten us how any of what i've said constitutes 'Aggression'

[Kerjack]

If you think that America is going to legalise cocaine within our lifetimes, you should really stop using it.

You and I both know cocaine is just an imaginary drug invented by 'the man' so they can pass laws to keep the marijuana men down.

[Archangel]

i agree. legalize heroin.

That would instantly destroy the economic base of southern Italy.

[Le Goat]

That would instantly destroy the economic base of southern Italy.

BUT IT WOULD RETURN DETROIT, ALABAMA, MISSISSIPPI, GEORGIA, NEW ORLEANS TO THEIR FORMER GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Septic_Porpoise]

drugs are fun for the whole family. rational common sense adults should have the opportunity to pursue any type of activity they would like to, right? recreation > any other concern in modern day society.

[Archangel]

BUT IT WOULD RETURN DETROIT, ALABAMA, MISSISSIPPI, GEORGIA, NEW ORLEANS TO THEIR FORMER GLORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No it wouldn't.

























Black people would still have the vote.

[taters]

I love it when you get goin'... you seem to really think a) we care what the fuck you think. b) the complete bullshit spewing from your mouth is gospel and finally, c) you can solve any fucking problem on Earth.


Please enlighten us how any of what i've said constitutes 'Aggression'

For a guy who refers to himself as 'we', and gives not factual/reasoned counter to any commentary other than 'goatish' ad honimems, and claims he doesnt give a shit what I think, I find it HILAROUS you follow all that up with a question on Im thinking.

Keep on trucking, you fucking dickjawer.

[Le Goat]

For a guy who refers to himself as 'we', and gives not factual/reasoned counter to any commentary other than 'goatish' ad honimems, and claims he doesnt give a shit what I think, I find it HILAROUS you follow all that up with a question on Im thinking.

Keep on trucking, you fucking dickjawer.

um, kid, the fucking stats are IN THIS THREAD. Wanna try again?

[Hanover Fist]

If this thread is about the World Baseball Classic I would say Mexico already collapsed. They have a lineup chock full of Major Leaguers and they are getting raped by Australia right now 17-7 who I think may have 1 MLB bench warmer on their roster. Hahaha the game was called after 8 innings on the mercy rule.

[Okie Medicvet]

Well O'whoeverthefuckhis and Lou Dobbs are going to be having one helluva time saying "I told you so", when we see escalating kidnapping and outright public shootings. What is going on in Tijuana is just a brief time away from what is going on in San Diego and Los Angeles and on up. Not to mention Phoenix and Flaggsaff as well.

[Hanover Fist]

Isn't it a little past time for this? Better late than never I guess.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/63800.html

Obama: Troop move to Mexican border under consideration

WASHINGTON — President Obama weighed in Wednesday on the escalating drug war on the U.S.-Mexico border, saying that he was looking at possibly deploying National Guard troops to contain the violence but ruled out any immediate military move.

"We're going to examine whether and if National Guard deployments would make sense and under what circumstances they would make sense," Obama said during an interview with journalists for regional papers, including a McClatchy reporter.

"I don't have a particular tipping point in mind," he said. "I think it's unacceptable if you've got drug gangs crossing our borders and killing U.S. citizens."

Already this year there have been 1,000 people killed in Mexico along the border, following 2008's death toll of 5,800, according to federal officials who credit Mexican President Felipe Calderon for a crackdown on drug cartels.

But the spillover on the border -- for example, to El Paso from neighboring Ciudad Juarez -- has created a political reaction.

In a recent visit to El Paso, Texas Gov. Rick Perry called for 1,000 troops to protect the border.

Obama was cautious, however. "We've got a very big border with Mexico," he said. "I'm not interested in militarizing the border."

The president praised Calderon, "who I believe is really working hard and taking some extraordinary risks under extraordinary pressure to deal with the drug cartels and the corresponding violence that's erupted along the borders."

Rep. Loretta Sanchez, D-Calif., chair of a key subcommittee on border security, will hold a hearing Thursday on Mexican border violence.

"Last week Mexico sent an additional 3,200 soldiers to the border," Sanchez said in a prepared opening statement for the hearing, "increasing the total number of Mexican soldiers combating drug cartels to more than 45,000."

Sanchez chairs the House Committee on Homeland Security's subcommittee on border, maritime and global counterterrorism.

"It should be noted that over 200 U.S. citizens have been killed in this drug war, either because they were involved in the cartels or were innocent bystanders," she said. "With those concerns in mind, it is essential that the Department of Homeland Security, along with other relevant departments, continue to pursue a contingency plan to address 'spillover' violence along our border."

At a hearing this week, Rep. Kay Granger, R-Texas, who visited Mexico last month as part of a congressional delegation tour, praised the so-called Merida Initiative -- a drug cartel fighting agreement between the U.S. and Mexico that provides Mexico with $1.4 billion to control drug trafficking.

"From helicopters and surveillance planes to non-intrusive inspection equipment, the U.S. investment is intended to provide the hardware necessary for the Mexican government to extend its authority to those remote and hard-to-access parts of the country ravaged by the drug trade," said Granger.

That agreement between Calderon and President George W. Bush will be updated, Obama said.

"We expect to have a comprehensive approach to dealing with these issues of border security that will involve supporting Calderon and his efforts in a partnership, also making sure we are dealing with the flow of drug money and guns south, because it's really a two-way situation there," said Obama.

"The drugs are coming north, we're sending funds and guns south," he said. "As a consequence, these cartels have gained extraordinary power. Our expectation is to have a comprehensive policy in place in the next few months.

[Le Goat]

I can't wait until we start deploying our National Guard (when they come home) down there. I say that 'cause that's exactly what a lot of people along the border have wanted for a while, even made news during the last election. But, of course, the resident spics took time out of their lazy ass days to form mass protests in major cities which scared washington to death. NOW LOOK YOU FUCKING IDIOTS.

lolwut

[Le Goat]

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico – Police acting on a tip found nine bodies partially buried in the desert on the outskirts of the Mexican border city of Ciudad Juarez, and authorities announced the arrest of a suspected leader of a drug cartel hit squad.
Investigators searched the desert site south of the city on Saturday to see whether there are any more bodies.
An official with the state prosecutor's office who declined to be named in line with department policy says a police officer's badge was found at the site. Authorities were working to identify the bodies.
State security official Enrique Torres Valadez said a total of nine bodies, seven male and two female, have been found so far.
"One was handcuffed, all were tortured," he said. "They had been there for days or maybe weeks."
Ciudad Juarez, a city of 1.3 million people across the border from El Paso, Texas, has been hit by a wave of drug-fueled violence, prompting federal authorities to dispatch thousands of soldiers.
Torres said 1,500 more troops were arriving Saturday, on top of 2,150 who arrived Friday.
Farther east, in the border city of Reynosa, federal police announced Saturday that they had arrested a man who allegedly led operations there for the feared Zetas, a group of hit men for the Gulf drug cartel.
Sergio Pena Mendoza, 39, is also suspected of participating in an unsuccessful plot to free an imprisoned Zetas leader from jail in neighboring Guatemala, authorities told a news conference in Mexico City.
Pena Mendoza was arrested after he tried to flee a police patrol in a stolen pickup truck with Texas plates. Police found an assault rifle in the truck and said Pena Mendoza is suspected of killing a police official and a businessman in southern Mexico.
Interim Federal Police Commissioner Rodrigo Esparza said Pena Mendoza achieved the same rank in the Zetas — and was a possible replacement for — Jaime Gonzalez Duran, also known as "The Hummer," a founding member of the gang who was arrested in Reynosa in November.
Questioned by reporters as he was led through police installations in Mexico City, Pena Mendoza denied the accusations.
Also Saturday, a male suspect threw a hand grenade at police officers in the western city of Guadalajara, according to a statement from the Jalisco state prosecutor's office. The statement did not report any injuries, and local media said nobody was hurt because the device rolled into a parking lot.
Police detained the suspect and later found 14 more grenades and 10 assault rifles in his home.

[Le Goat]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. government is working on an integrated plan to address Mexico's escalating war with drug traffickers and could complete work on the initiative as early as this week, a top U.S. military official said on Tuesday.
Air Force Gen. Gene Renuart, who oversees U.S. military interests on both sides of the U.S.-Mexican border as the head of Northern Command, told the Senate that the plan would likely involve all agencies of government including law enforcement and the military.
Among the priorities are likely to be measures to deal with violence that spills over the U.S. border, the flow of small arms from the United States to Mexico, support for the Mexican military, tightening border security and the spreading presence of Mexican cartels in U.S. cities.
The military is already employing border security techniques mastered in the war zones of Iraq and Afghanistan, including unmanned aerial vehicles and technology capable of locating underground tunnels.
But an interagency government team, meeting this week at the Department of Homeland Security, is expected to produce a broad new initiative to confront a drug war that has killed thousands in Mexico and spilled over into U.S. cities such as Phoenix in a surge of kidnappings and other gang-related violence.
"This is a whole of government problem and I think the best response is an integrated approach and we're working toward that aggressively," Renuart said at a hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
"I think we'll have good plans come out of this work this week," he said.
DHS spokesman Sean Smith said Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano would soon make an announcement on new initiatives that the department would undertake, some with "other agencies."
Mexican President Felipe Calderon has sent tens of thousands of troops to fight powerful drug cartels as a way of eliminating corrupt ties between traffickers and local police.
Rising violence on both sides of the border has rattled U.S. officials, who have stepped up contacts with their Mexican counterparts in recent months.
UNMANNED DRONES
"The Mexican government is taking aggressive action to win. They are building momentum. I would not say they are losing," Renuart said when asked if the Calderon government was winning or losing.
Navy Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, has suggested Washington give Mexico assistance in counterinsurgency tactics used against Islamist militants in Iraq and Afghanistan, including surveillance drones.
U.S. officials acknowledge that much of the violence is fueled by a stream of U.S. small arms moving into Mexico, while lamenting a rise in gang problems in the United States.
At a separate Tuesday hearing before a panel of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Democratic Senator Richard Durbin estimated that Mexican drug cartels are now present in at least 230 U.S. cities, compared to 50 cities in 2006.
"They are the new face of crime in the age of globalization," Durbin said.
Sen. Jim Webb, a Virginia Democrat on the armed services panel, sought to underscore the complexity of the problem by saying that some drug traffickers are former Mexican soldiers trained by U.S. Special Forces.
"They're highly trained," he said. "Their tactics are very sophisticated."
Renuart said the Mexican military also faces a challenge in border cities like Juarez, near El Paso, Texas.
"They have been very effective when they've been in place," he said. "The challenge for the Mexican government is its sustainment of that effort because their military is not that large." He said the U.S. military is providing Mexico with assistance including tactics for raiding cartel operations and seizing weapons.
The military is also tracking cartel movements along the border with cameras, listening posts and aerial surveillance vehicles, including unmanned drones, and passing their findings on to U.S. law enforcement, he said.

[Nature's Folly]

Mexico can tear itself apart for all i care.

[Gary_Busey]

Take it over and turn it into one giant spring break destination.

[Le Goat]

Take it over and turn it into one giant spring break destination.
Fuck that. Oaxaca, Acapulco and Playa del Carmen are the only places worth a damn

[freegood]

Take it over and turn it into one giant spring break destination.

Best kept lawns in the world.

[Gary_Busey]

We could build Vegas II: Mexico.

[taters]

^ So it would be 'safer' vegas?

[Gary_Busey]

It would be "relaxed laws" Vegas.