Best. Center. Evar.

[Archangel]

Probably the most tired discussion in sports, but I don't remember having it here in recent memory. Oh, and the prefix says "NBA", so stop wondering why Walton isn't on here.

Say IBTP if you're gay.

[nuclearjew]

IBTP if you're gay.

[ADD]

Jake Voskuhl!

[UNC]

Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Jr

[Archangel]

Fuck, but Dream was amazing in his prime.

[JustinCase424]

Im gonna have to go with the obvious choice and say Wilt Chamberlain. Scoring 100 points in a game was amazing enough, but for him to average 50ppg in a season was even more amazing for me. That takes being good day in and day out.

[ADD]

It's tough between Russell, Chamberlain, Shaq, Robinson, Olajuwon and Abdul-Jabar, but Wilt takes the cake.

The position has changed so much. Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum have a lot of potential, but it's not the same.

Shaq will probably go down as the last great/dominant "true center".

[Hanover Fist]

My vote goes to Shawn Bradley.

[nuclearjew]

Wrong. It's Manute Bol.

http://waxidermy.com/images/035_monute_boll.jpg

[UNC]

It's hard for me to vote for someone I never saw play

...other than on highlights

[STDSkillz]

Nobody has ever (and never will) impacted the game of basketball to the extent that Wilt Chamberlain did.

[UNC]

Yeah...I bet you can remember the way he impacted it.

How about I compact the shit in your ass?

[Genius]

The discerning fan will immediately narrow to Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, and Kareem. To me, Shaq, Wilt, and Russell's utter failure from the free throw line holds them back. Sure, Shaq and Wilt could completely control a game offensively, and Russell had the same ability defensively and on the glass, but how any of them could let such a glaring weakness exist throughout their careers baffles me. So I go with Kareem, edging The Dream.

[UNC]

Wilt and Bill had it easy...you know, playing in a mostly white league.

[NOTKyle]

I'm giving it to Shaq. Put him on any team, in any era, and he'd dominate any game. Wilt was simply a product of his era; he played the way nobody was playing, he had the stature nobody had, and simply dunking the ball dazzled everyone around him.

[Archangel]

I'm giving it to Shaq. Put him on any team, in any era, and he'd dominate any game. Wilt was simply a product of his era; he played the way nobody was playing, he had the stature nobody had, and simply dunking the ball dazzled everyone around him.

How does the same not apply to Shaq?

[Jericho]

http://www.numaibaschet.ro/photos/paragraf/742/muresan.jpg

[Archangel]

Nobody has ever (and never will) impacted the game of basketball to the extent that George Mikan did.

Fixed.

[Genius]

http://www.numaibaschet.ro/photos/paragraf/742/muresan.jpg
Michael Phelps is a swimmer!!! GTFO!!!

[Mustard]

Kevin Duckworth

[Swurgen]

Shaq is a product of NBA marketing and David Stern's edict that he be the new superstar and his rules are different than everybody else's.

Wilt was a product of being a dominant physical specimen with no peer other than Bill Walton who could match his athleticism. That's why both of those guys are overrated. Great players but overrated nontheless.

I gotta go with Hakeem.

[Infotainment]

Shaq is a product of NBA marketing and David Stern's edict that he be the new superstar and his rules are different than everybody else's.

Wilt was a product of being a dominant physical specimen with no peer other than Bill Walton who could match his athleticism. That's why both of those guys are overrated. Great players but overrated nontheless.

I gotta go with Hakeem.

I think you mean Bill Russell, Walton didn't play at the same time as Wilt.

[Archangel]

...and was nowhere near Wilt athletically.

Hell, who was?

[Phil Theehor]

Hakeem had the smoothest, most beautiful game of any big man I've ever watched.

But for greatest ever... let's start the discussion by counting rings.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Shaq in his prime would destroy Wilt in his prime.

[Archangel]

Wrong.

[Soup Nazi]

It all depends on a myriad of other factors. Sure, if you put Prime Shaq in the backseat of a DeLorean and send him back for a season in the 60's, he probably would dominate. However, if you were to take Wilt, give him all the advantages Shaq had during his development (Specialized strength training regiments, personal position coaches, clinics throughout his entire youth, an advanced AAU system and tougher College competition to help his development) and throw him into the late 90's, I think he would do pretty damn good himself.

[Phil Theehor]

Admittedly, I pulled the Russell lever because I am a shameless homer.

Beyond that, however, I'm surprised that so many people chose Wilt over Russell. Yes, Wilt had all the stats, but Russell is reputed to be greatest defensive big man ever. Beyond that, didn't Russell beat up on Wilt whenever they played head to head?

Unfortunately, none of us (except Morfin) were around to see that matchup. I would have loved to have seen it.

[Satan]

Mehmet Okur

[Soup Nazi]

Admittedly, I pulled the Russell lever because I am a shameless homer.

Beyond that, however, I'm surprised that so many people chose Wilt over Russell. Yes, Wilt had all the stats, but Russell is reputed to be greatest defensive big man ever. Beyond that, didn't Russell beat up on Wilt whenever they played head to head?

Unfortunately, none of us (except Morfin) were around to see that matchup. I would have loved to have seen it.

As far as head-to-head match ups go, Russell is always gonna get the W's, he played on one of the true dynasties in the history of professional sports. However, the stats would tell you that Russell never really "beat up" on Wilt head-to-head.

Even in games against Russell, Chamberlain was more impressive. In 142 meetings between 1959 and 1969, Chamberlain had more points, 4,077 to 2,060, and a scoring average nearly twice as high, 28.7 to 14.5. Wilt also had the edge in rebounds, 4,072 to 3,373, averaging about five a game more than Russell.

[Archangel]

Beyond that, however, I'm surprised that so many people chose Wilt over Russell. Yes, Wilt had all the stats, but Russell is reputed to be greatest defensive big man ever. Beyond that, didn't Russell beat up on Wilt whenever they played head to head?


What Soup said. Wilt played with five or six HoFers in his entire career (Thurmond, Arizin, Greer, Cunningham, West, Goodrich); Russ had more than that on his team every time he stepped on the court.

Mehmet Okur

Who, the guy who got beasted on by Nenê tonight?

[STDSkillz]

Admittedly, I pulled the Russell lever because I am a shameless homer.


Russell is a close second for me. As much as I may loathe the Celtics, I respect the hell out of Russell's game and his on-court intelligence. When you're at a four-five inch height disadvantage, you HAVE to be smart in order to play with Chamberlain night in and night out. I'd give anything to go back in time and see those guys battle each other in real life. Must have been a treat.

[Archangel]

By that logic, Charles Barkley is the smartest player in DUI NBA history.

[Hobnail_Boot]

Lew Alcindor

[Archangel]

I gotta go with Hakeem.

So why does Dream still have zero votes?

[Snatch]

Hakeem might be the smoothest motherfucker, and Shaq might be the strongest, but Wilt was the best.

Wilt was a world-class athlete. If Wilt played in a different era, perhaps his approach would've been more serious. How do we know how many times he even played at fifth gear.

Oh, and if you want to talk Head to Head, look at what Hakeem did to Shaq in the Finals. A smoother, quicker guy could handle Shaq better than everyone thought.

[Archangel]

The thing about Dream is that he regularly raped his HoF contemporaries, often on the biggest stages. Wilt and Russ battled, as did Kareem, Chief and Mo; sometimes one guy won, sometimes the other. Kareem beat Parish, but he didn't usually make him his bitch. Wilt may have dominated Russell mat times, but in the end, the Celtics usually came away with the win. However, Hakeem in his prime took on the best big men of his era (DRob, Ewing, Shaq) and made them look silly - more often than not in the Western or the NBA Finals.

[freegood]

Dream dominated the era of the centers and picked up a bunch of scrubs onto his shoulders and into the promiseland for the first time they won.

I would rank him under Wilt and Kareem for offense...top ten all-time in points and boards. And just under Russel for defense... top ten in steals and blocks.

Dude also notched a quadruple double.

His rivals and colleagues tribute to his awesomeness...
48LjLevnMZ8

[Da Raider]

damn. This is difficult.

[misterfatt]

Oh, and if you want to talk Head to Head, look at what Hakeem did to Shaq in the Finals. A smoother, quicker guy could handle Shaq better than everyone thought.
comparing shaq in his third year to hakeem in his prime is down right idiotic.

idiot.

[BIG PIZZLE]

I wonder what the average size of an NBA player was when Wilt was at his prime vs. when Shaq was in his prime.

[Genius]

In 67-68, Wilt shot 38% from the line, playing all 82 games, when he was 31. That is fucking pathetic.

[dick_darlington]

this poll is useless if luc longley isn't one of the choices.

[BIG PIZZLE]

In 67-68, Wilt shot 38% from the line, playing all 82 games, when he was 31. That is fucking pathetic.

Plus 90% of the NBA was nerdy white dudes.

[Archangel]

Plus 90% of the NBA was nerdy white dudes.

In '67? Dude, no. Look at Wilt's team: Chet Walker, Lucious Jackson, Hal Greer and Wali Jones look pretty black to me. Matter of fact, the only white guy I can think of on that team is Billy Cunningham.

[Swurgen]

So why does Dream still have zero votes?

Just waiting to see if anybody would talk me out of it or if I blatantly forgot anything.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Wilt Height: 7-1; Weight: 275 lbs
Shaq Height: 7-1; Weight: 325 lbs

Who do you want in the post?

[freegood]

In 67-68, Wilt shot 38% from the line, playing all 82 games, when he was 31. That is fucking pathetic.

Wilt shot regulation 3s when the 3pt line wasn't added yet. Shaq can't guard off the paint.

[Swurgen]

comparing shaq in his third year to hakeem in his prime is down right idiotic.

idiot.

I don't think Shaq had even hit the needle by then.

[Archangel]

Wilt Height: 7-1; Weight: 275 lbs
Shaq Height: 7-1; Weight: 325 lbs

Who do you want in the post?

Let's conveniently forget that Wilt could dunk from the free throw line and, as a Globetrotter, punched the ball through the rim while holding it in a "headlock".

Look, nobody is disputing that Shaq in his prime was a fucking beast. But do you honestly think that a fucking freak of nature like the Dipper, if he had hit the weights and the juice like today's players, with today's strength building regimens, wouldn't have been huge, as well?

[ruffdog]

Divac?

you fucking asshole arch

[Archangel]

Bogut > Divac.


Yeah, I went there.

[mongo]

the guy who owns the golf course i play on all the time seems to hate vlad. he has signs everywhere that say "replace divacs".

[Da Raider]

the guy who owns the golf course i play on all the time seems to have vlad. he has signs everywhere that say "replace divacs".

pffffffffffffffffftttt

[BIG PIZZLE]

Let's conveniently forget that Wilt could dunk from the free throw line and, as a Globetrotter, punched the ball through the rim while holding it in a "headlock".

Look, nobody is disputing that Shaq in his prime was a fucking beast. But do you honestly think that a fucking freak of nature like the Dipper, if he had hit the weights and the juice like today's players, with today's strength building regimens, wouldn't have been huge, as well?

That is not the (your) question. Shaq in his prime would crush Wilt. Was anyone garding wilt when he dunked from the freethrow line because I'm sure he wasnt being guarded as a Globetrotter. Shaq took a lot of beatings from guys that were Wilt's size and still scored, how many 7 footers were in the NBA when Wilt was in his prime? Here's a list I found (http://www.internationalbasketball.com/tall.html). I think Shaq has played against 90% of these guys and was probably double teamed while they were guarding him.

[Da Raider]

being over 7 feet tall doesn't automatically mean you are one of the greatest centers of all time. Most of those guys on that list are stiffs.

Bottom line, Shaq could dominate in Wilt era and Wilt would do the same in Shaq's era.

There is no guarantee that Shaq would dominate/crush Wilt in either era. I'm sure that Shaq will be able to get into the low post block more often than Wilt could stop him, but then again, Shaq could do that against any player in the history of the game. That being said, Wilt's superior speed, quickness and jumping ability would greatly assist him on both sides of the court in his battle against Shaq. I think that both players would have their hands full on defense.

[Genius]

Wilt in this era would be Tim Duncan.

[Archangel]

That is not the (your) question. Shaq in his prime would crush Wilt. Was anyone garding wilt when he dunked from the freethrow line because I'm sure he wasnt being guarded as a Globetrotter. Shaq took a lot of beatings from guys that were Wilt's size and still scored, how many 7 footers were in the NBA when Wilt was in his prime? Here's a list I found (http://www.internationalbasketball.com/tall.html). I think Shaq has played against 90% of these guys and was probably double teamed while they were guarding him.

You're making it sound as if Wilt faced inferior competition, yet got the same big numbers that Shaq did.

Not so. Sure, he didn't face a lot of strong-ass 7 footers in his day (side question: Just how many true centres in their prime did Shaq face in his dominant phase, from around '98 or so?), but against the guys he played, he got 50 points and 25 rebounds per game, not 30 and 15. Nobody is putting Shaq's dominance in doubt, but he wouldn't have made Wilt his bitch.

[Swurgen]

That is not the (your) question. Shaq in his prime would crush Wilt. Was anyone garding wilt when he dunked from the freethrow line because I'm sure he wasnt being guarded as a Globetrotter. Shaq took a lot of beatings from guys that were Wilt's size and still scored, how many 7 footers were in the NBA when Wilt was in his prime? Here's a list I found (http://www.internationalbasketball.com/tall.html). I think Shaq has played against 90% of these guys and was probably double teamed while they were guarding him.

So will would have the exact same body 30 years later? He would ignore all advances in nutrition/training and stay exactly as is. He was the biggest guy in the league back then so there was no reason for him to get any bigger and risk constant injuries like Shaq had. Human knees are only built to absorb a certain amount of stress and 275 lbs is more than enough when you're already the strongest in the league. If there was a bigger guy out there to try to combat, never mind 20 guys in the league bigger than him, he'd probably be getting a lot bigger.

[Da Raider]

Wilt in this era would be Tim Duncan.

Wilt is vastly superior to Tim in many, but not all ways. And I'm not hating on Timmy, who is a HOFer.

[BIG PIZZLE]

You're making it sound as if Wilt faced inferior competition, yet got the same big numbers that Shaq did.

Not so. Sure, he didn't face a lot of strong-ass 7 footers in his day (side question: Just how many true centres in their prime did Shaq face in his dominant phase, from around '98 or so?), but against the guys he played, he got 50 points and 25 rebounds per game, not 30 and 15. Nobody is putting Shaq's dominance in doubt, but he wouldn't have made Wilt his bitch.So you admit that Shaq had stiffer competition.

[BIG PIZZLE]

So will would have the exact same body 30 years later? He would ignore all advances in nutrition/training and stay exactly as is. He was the biggest guy in the league back then so there was no reason for him to get any bigger and risk constant injuries like Shaq had. Human knees are only built to absorb a certain amount of stress and 275 lbs is more than enough when you're already the strongest in the league. If there was a bigger guy out there to try to combat, never mind 20 guys in the league bigger than him, he'd probably be getting a lot bigger.

People like you are why the internet sucks. If Wilt had flubber on his shoes he'd still be playing and if he had 3 arms he could totally play awesome defense on shaq...

[Archangel]

Russell was 6'10", Thurmond was 6'11", Kareem was 7'2", Walt Bellamy was 6'11"...

[Swurgen]

You're making it sound as if Wilt faced inferior competition, yet got the same big numbers that Shaq did.

Not so. Sure, he didn't face a lot of strong-ass 7 footers in his day (side question: Just how many true centres in their prime did Shaq face in his dominant phase, from around '98 or so?), but against the guys he played, he got 50 points and 25 rebounds per game, not 30 and 15. Nobody is putting Shaq's dominance in doubt, but he wouldn't have made Wilt his bitch.

Anybody have any height/weights of the centers back then vs now or just the leagues as a whole? Guys are way bigger now. There are 6'10" small forwards now.

[Archangel]

So you admit that Shaq had stiffer competition.

And got far smaller numbers than Wilt. Shaq's record is, what, 60-something? Yeah. Wilt did that every other day without breaking a sweat. How many triple doubles does Diesel have, 2? Wilt led the league in assists once. Just saying. But sure. You haven't answered my question, though. Name the Hall of Fame 7' centres Shaq faced in his Laker days. Guys like Nowitzki, Webber, Garnett, Rasheed etc don't count.

[Da Raider]

I think that Shaq faces stiffer competition in that teams play superior defense in the modern era, but night in and night out, the players in Wilt's era were not nearly as watered down as in today's game. Back then, there were alot less teams, with only the cream of the crop playing, today, we have bench guys on expansion teams that would never have been drafted.

Look at who shaq went up against in the Finals...

Houston - Hakeem, who kicked his ass.
Indiana - The Flying Dutchman, skinny 7 fter who prefered playing outside.
NJ (2x) - Jason Collins. Really? An undersized barely competent player who is really a 4.
Dallas - Erik Dampier. BFD.

I'm just trying to say that there has been a major lacking of quality centers in the game ever since the Bulls showed that you can win without one.

[Genius]

Wilt vs. Shaq should even be the argument, anyway. Try to poke a hole in Kareem's game. Just try.

[Da Raider]

Wilt vs. Shaq should even be the argument, anyway. Try to poke a hole in Kareem's game. Just try.

How's this? The best center in the game should probably average more than 11.2 rebounds per game.

[Genius]

How's this? The best center in the game should probably average more than 11.2 rebounds per game.
A function of necessity. His first 10 years, he averaged almost 15, and led the league once.

[Da Raider]

A function of necessity. His first 10 years, he averaged almost 15, and led the league once.

I was reaching...I'll admit. I guess his weakness was his lack of physical toughness, especially in the later years. There was no guarantee Kareem was going to grab the rebound or make the block. Also, he NEVER took a damn charge. Always drove me nuts with his sideways twist during contact.

Still one of the great ones and I'll always love him.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Wilt vs. Shaq should even be the argument, anyway. Try to poke a hole in Kareem's game. Just try.

Hows bout Shaq just knocks his spindly ass over and then dunks on his face? BAM!! Where's your jump-hook now, Ferdinand? Huh? Try and jump-hook from the ground. Can you do it? Will your goggles protect you from gravity? No. YOU GET SMASHED!

[Archangel]

Let's compare career bests. And seriously, I'll smack a bitch who says that Wilt didn't face competition. Russell, Thurmond, Abdul-Jabbar, Lanier, Unseld, Bellamy are all in the Hall of Fame.

Wilt:

100 points
55 rebounds
21 assists (I don't know whether that was his career high, it's the highest I could find, and fittingly, it came in the only game in NBA history in which a player got a triple double with ALL THREE STATS above 20: 22 points, 25 boards, 21 assists)
78 triple doubles

Blocks weren't counted back then, but if they had, you know that he'd at least equalled Shaq's high of 15.

Shaq:
61 points
28 rebounds
10 assists
2 triple doubles

[BIG PIZZLE]

Blocks werent counted because they didnt block. The game back then was touted as being a "no contact" sport. It was for teh gays. Shaq gets pounded on every play (by at least 2 defenders) and he still dominates.

[Genius]

Let's compare career bests. And seriously, I'll smack a bitch who says that Wilt didn't face competition. Russell, Thurmond, Abdul-Jabbar, Lanier, Unseld, Bellamy are all in the Hall of Fame.

Wilt:

100 points
55 rebounds
21 assists
78 triple doubles

Blocks weren't counted back then, but if they had, you know that he'd at least equaled Shaq's high of 15.

Shaq:
1061 points
928 rebounds
310 assists
782 triple doubles
Adjusted for deflation.

[Swurgen]

Hows bout Shaq just knocks his spindly ass over and then dunks on his face? Where's your jump-hook now, Ferdinand? Huh? Try and jump-hook from the ground. Can you do it? Will your goggles protect you from gravity? No. YOU GET SMASHED!

So you're assuming that Shaq gets the same favorable (to put it mildly) calls that form the basis of his entire game even when playing against the one time scoring champ?

[Genius]

So you're assuming that Shaq gets the same favorable (to put it mildly) calls that form the basis of his entire game even when playing against the one time scoring champ?
Ahem. One time?

[Archangel]

Pizz, you still owe me a list of Hall of Fame (or at least All Star) centres Shaq faced and dominated from 1996 to 2004.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Arch, you owe me a swift knobbing. This aint homework motherfucker; I dont owe you shit.

[Da Raider]

my main issue with Shaq isn't even his FT shooting, which has always been attrocious. It's actually his defense and rebounding. His best rebounding and blocked shots year was actually his rookie season. Rebounding is all about effort and that's Shaq's major issue. He consistently comes into the season out of shape and he doesn't start trying until late in the regular season.

[Da Raider]

Pizz, you still owe me a list of Hall of Fame (or at least All Star) centres Shaq faced and dominated from 1996 to 2004.

Actually, Shaq normally kicked David Robinson's ass on a nightly basis.

And Kevin Garnett's ass.

And Alonzo Mourning's ass.

I'd say Pat Ewing, but he was already an old man, so that doesn't count.

wow. Dikembe Mutombo consistently made the all star team. Sheesh. And later on, Ben Wallace was considered the best center in the East. Pathetic.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Hakeem, Mourning, Ewing...

[Da Raider]

Hakeem, Mourning, Ewing...

he never kicked Hakeem's ass.

[Archangel]

Arch, you owe me a swift knobbing. This aint homework motherfucker; I dont owe you shit.

So you're admitting that you don't have a leg to stand on.

Actually, Shaq normally kicked David Robinson's ass on a nightly basis.


So did Hakeem. But yeah, DRob definitely counts.

And Kevin Garnett's ass.

Since when was KG a centre?

And Alonzo Mourning's ass.

According to the Pizz rules, he doesn't count since he's only 6'10" or something. But yeah, Zo was pretty good.

I'd say Pat Ewing, but he was already an old man, so that doesn't count.

Also, an in-his-prime Pat matched up pretty well against young Shaq, if teen-age memory serves.

One could also add Mutombo to the list. Shaq absolutely crushed him in the 2001 Finals. EDIT: Looks like you already did. But yeah, there wasn't really a bevy of HoF centres in Shaq's prime.

[BIG PIZZLE]

he never kicked Hakeem's ass.

You're right but this was before Shaq was in his prime.

http://www.nba.com/media/rockets/olajuwon_shot_001120.jpgHakeem vs Shaquille O’Neal: 1995 NBA Finals
Game 1: Olajuwon: 31 pts - O’Neal 26 pts
Game 2: Olajuwon: 34 pts - O’Neal 33 pts
Game 3: Olajuwon: 31 pts - O’Neal 28 pts
Game 4: Olajuwon: 35 pts - O’Neal 25 pts
By the end of those 1995 Finals, Olajuwon was clearly ahead of Robinson and Ewing. Shaquille O’Neal, in a 1995 interview, called Olajuwon the best center in the game. “He’s got great moves, a great attitude. He’s a class act. I have no problem with Hakeem being called the best player in the game.” Of course, at the time, Olajuwon and O’Neal were represented by the same agent and agency. But O’Neal was giving respect to the right player.

JJyYVW1R_fM

So you're admitting that you don't have a leg to stand on.


You should be more concerned with my 3rd leg.

[Swurgen]

People like you are why the internet sucks. If Wilt had flubber on his shoes he'd still be playing and if he had 3 arms he could totally play awesome defense on shaq...

And people like you think that Babe Ruth could step out of the grave with that huge swing of his and still hit .350 with 50+ HR's without acknowledging improved competition, conditioning, nutrition, specialized bullpens, new pitches, techniques, ...


Ahem. One time?

I didn't look it up. Didn't Jordan overtake him? I meant career...not annual.

[Stax]

And people like you think that Babe Ruth could step out of the grave with that huge swing of his and still hit .350 with 50+ HR's without acknowledging improved competition, conditioning, nutrition, specialized bullpens, new pitches, techniques, ...


What you are doing is called timelining. If you like it it's a legitimate comparison tool, but it's incredibly weak because it assumes that somehow in the time traveling example (you gave) Ruth wouldn't have those same advantages, for example. This is why you look at value within an era, because those are the only actual facts you have (what a player did within their era).

[Archangel]

And if you go by that, it's really hard to argue against the Dipper.

[Stax]

And if you go by that, it's really hard to argue against the Dipper.

No... Timelining makes it hard to argue against a Shaq, maybe a Hakeem. Wilt never played against this level of competition, in an era with this physical training, or in this rules set. I think it's a crummy tool, but timelining DEFINITELY doesn't favor the old-school guy, it pretty much always favors the modern player.

EDIT - Unless of course you meant value in an era. In which case yes, I voted for Wilt.

EDIT2 - I'm a liar. Oh well.

[Archangel]

Fuck timelining. As has been pointed out, Wilt got as strong as he needed to be to play against those who were the biggest and strongest of his era. Look at MJ: He probably was the first to totally dominate a game physically from the guard position (cases could be made for Robertson and West, too, but the issue would remain the same). That worked brilliantly against the guys he faced, but have you seen how guards have bulked up recently?

[heelsguy]

kareem. period.