Larry Bird and some other guys

[Archangel]

Lots of really good players on that position. If you love cock, say ibtp.

[ADD]

LaPhonso Ellis

[Archangel]

Title edited, since Thompson (and to a degree Doc) did most of their damage in the ABA.

[SilverBullet]

Now that is PRO and not NBA I gotta go with Dr. J

[Archangel]

I probably forgot some people.

[Archangel]

I'm totally undecided. I mean, Baylor and Doc are sort of the blueprints for today's athletic wing players...

[ADD]

Well, it's Baylor's only chance at winning a poll. Because when we do greatest GM ever, he's fucked.

[Archangel]

Scottie isn't getting enough love here.

[Jericho]

Scottie isn't getting enough love here.
Larry Bird is an option. Why would he?

[Genius]

Bird. But I think LeBron will get there.

[Archangel]

Larry Bird is an option. Why would he?

Six championships v three?

[Archangel]

I really wanted to go with Doc or Baylor, but ended up picking Pip instead. At least in "my" era, I've never seen anyone besides him who could totally dominate a game while scoring eight points.

[Soup Nazi]

All of you are racist.

[Swurgen]

Six championships v three?

MJ vs Mchale for running mate?

[Soup Nazi]

MJ/Rodman(or Grant) v. McHale/Parish/Johnson/Walton?

It always gets tough when you start comparing teammates, because then there are just as valid reasons to then compare competition/era of play.

[Menace2Sobriety]

This is silly.

[Archangel]

Personal opinions presented as self-evident truth ftw.

Especially when backed up by nothing.

[Menace2Sobriety]

How about making a case for Scottie that goes a little deeper than 6 v 3? Because I think it may have been a little more difficult playing alongside Robert Parish and Kevin McHale while you're going up against Magic, Kareem and Worthy in the Finals than it is playing with MJ and Rodman while trying to take down Stockton, Malone and Hornacek.

Pippen was more athletic and better defensively, but he was nowhere near the threat that Bird was on offense - probably the best court vision of any player in history and he had range as well for a big man.

[Menace2Sobriety]

One of these guys was the focal point of the opposition every time he stepped onto the floor, the other only had the best 2-guard in history drawing attention yet Bird's shooting percentages are all markedly higher. The 3 wasn't even a weapon when he started in the league and he came into the league and started lighting guys up.

I really don't want to criticize Pippen because he was my favourite player as a kid, but comparing him to Bird is ridiculous. Bird won 3 straight MVPs, was one of the most competitive guys of all-time and has a multitude of clutch plays and signature moments in huge games. What are Pippen's signature moments? I remember a few, like the dunk on Ewing and the Marc Jackson humiliation, but there are really no scoring highlights to choose from like there are for Bird.

[Soup Nazi]

I would have picked Bird over Pippen as well (though I picked the Doctor over both), but it is not quite fair to Scottie to compare "signature moments" and scoring highlights, when his forte was on the defensive side of the ball.

[Menace2Sobriety]

How about some defensive highlights then? We know Bird has some. I already covered the Marc Jackson annihilation.
I found another one as well:
http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_970613.html

And why did you pick Dr.J???????

[ADD]

The dunk and fro ability obviously

[heelsguy]

david thompson played the 3 position?

yeah he had a 44 inch vert, but he was only 6-4 1/2


if you were picking a team from these players all in their prime, only a moron would not take larry legend. I love dr. J, and bobby jones was a great defensive player, and worthy came up big in big game...but it is no contest because bird was a "9" or "10" in every phase of the game( not the least of which being clutch.)

also, i have never gotten over pippen refusing to go into that playoff game vs the knicks because jackson drew up the play for tony k. to take the game-winning shot. what an asshole he was that night.

[Bizz]

ibtp

[justhere]

I misread the poll between the position and the shot.

[Da Raider]

There is only one choice. And his name is Elgin Baylor.

[Soup Nazi]

david thompson played the 3 position?

yeah he had a 44 inch vert, but he was only 6-4 1/2


Thompson and English both played the slasher role in Denver, depending on the rotation both were guard/forwards. Remember, different era, and for a couple years even a different league.

if you were picking a team from these players all in their prime, only a moron would not take larry legend. I love dr. J, and bobby jones was a great defensive player, and worthy came up big in big game...but it is no contest because bird was a "9" or "10" in every phase of the game( not the least of which being clutch.)


Bird was great, no doubt about it, but 9 or 10 in every phase? How about general athleticism? How about speed? How about Vertical? Slashing ability? First step quickness? If you rate him a 9 or a 10 in any of those categories you are awfully delusional. Even in his era, he was not an athletic marvel, which actually makes his accomplishments and success all that more impressive.


And why did you pick Dr.J???????

I picked Erving because of a combination of individual success (5th on the all-time scoring list, 4x mvp, 16x all-star), general athletic ability, and his impact on the game, which I believe is actually greater than Bird's (which I will get into in a moment). I am a firm believer that Larry Bird, as great as he is, was put in a position where he could maximize his abilities. Simply put, Boston was a place where general athleticism was not necessary to succeed. Which was great for Bird, McHale, and Parish no doubt.

Now I am in no way saying that Bird was a "system quarterback" so to speak (In fact, none of this can be argued statistically, its just opinion from watching thousands of games), what I am saying is that unlike a Dr. J who was immediately successful despite switching leagues, teams, and systems, I do not see Bird having the same success (even individual) outside of Boston. Now maybe I am delusional, but I just do not see his ability translating as well as Ervings'. This speaks only towards the Doctor's natural athleticism, which was damn near unparalleled for a decade.

As far as impact, Bird had a major cultural impact on the game, but he really did not shape and change the way the game was played at the SF position(He actually had more of a role in shaping the way PF's play, than SF's). J (and to an extent, the ABA) molded the SF position into a slashing role. Without J, you never get the slashers of today (LeBron, Melo, Pierce, Durant, etc), hell, he changed the nature of both wing positions forever.

[misterfatt]

michael jordan as a wizard!!!!!!!

[Archangel]

J (and to an extent, the ABA) molded the SF position into a slashing role. Without J, you never get the slashers of today (LeBron, Melo, Pierce, Durant, etc), hell, he changed the nature of both wing positions forever.

I love your post, but you could argue that Baylor was the actual blueprint for the athletic, slashing wing player/forward, influencing as he did Connie Hawkins and Doc.

[Soup Nazi]

I love your post, but you could argue that Baylor was the actual blueprint for the athletic, slashing wing player/forward, influencing as he did Connie Hawkins and Doc.

Baylor's GM record always leads me to forget about him. I would argue that Hawkins was more influenced by Rucker park then anything else, but Baylor definitely laid the foundation for Doc and damn near every wing the ABA ever had to offer.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Wait, if I'm supposed to pick the best 3, why do I only get one choice? This poll is broken. We need an admin in here.

[Archangel]

Please tell me you're not being serious...

[BIG PIZZLE]

Dude, not a mod. An admin. GTFO.

[Ace Rockola]

My favorite Bird story:

During one game on Christmas Day against the Indiana Pacers, before the game Bird told Chuck Person that he had a Christmas present waiting for him. During the game, when Person was on the bench, Bird shot a three-pointer on the baseline right in front of Person. Immediately after releasing the ball, Bird said to Person, "Merry fuckin' Christmas!", and then the shot went in

[freegood]

Baylor's GM record always leads me to forget about him. I would argue that Hawkins was more influenced by Rucker park then anything else, but Baylor definitely laid the foundation for Doc and damn near every wing the ABA ever had to offer.

In fairness, Elgin can't do much if his owner won't commit to anything. It took forever for the Clips to sign a max extension player, and that lasted a couple of years until they traded Brand.

Sucks to be in the shoes of a Clippers fan. Always doomed to promising mediocrity...

[Swurgen]

Shaping a position is overrated because a lot of that has to do with just being born years earlier.

[Archangel]

Yeah, who cares about Columbus? 500 years later, YOU'RE in America!

[heelsguy]

Thompson and English both played the slasher role in Denver, depending on the rotation both were guard/forwards. Remember, different era, and for a couple years even a different league.


Bird was great, no doubt about it, but 9 or 10 in every phase? How about general athleticism? How about speed? How about Vertical? Slashing ability? First step quickness? If you rate him a 9 or a 10 in any of those categories you are awfully delusional. Even in his era, he was not an athletic marvel, which actually makes his accomplishments and success all that more impressive.



When I said Bird was a "9" or "10" in all phases of the game, I was referring to the generally-accepted ones. rebounding, passing ability, scoring, free throw shooting (especially when it counted) FG shooting percentage, and even defensive ability. the fact that Bird excelled in all of these phases without being naturally-gifted with Dr. J's ability to jump out of the gym or blow by someone speaks even MORE to Bird's greatness.

(this coming from a lakers fan who Bird broke his heart several times in the 1980's) when you were a kid. I actually watched both dr. J and Bird play live (yeah, live....not youtube) and trust me when I tell you Bird was a more valuable and better all-around player. If the poll was "who was the better athlete?" then you would be correct with the Doctor

[Archangel]

Bird? a 9 or 10 on D? Really?

[heelsguy]

Bird? a 9 or 10 on D? Really?




ok..maybe a "7" or "8" in defensive prowess?:

but 7217 defensive rebounds...and 1556 steals...755 blocks is not too bad considering he was a "slow white guy"

but the poll was about the best overall "3", right?

[Stax]

Yeah, who cares about Columbus? 500 years later, YOU'RE in America!

Doesn't make Columbus the "Greatest American" or "Greatest Spainiard".

[Archangel]

Doesn't make Columbus the "Greatest American" or "Greatest Spainiard".

No, but it still makes him pretty special.


And he was Italian, by the way.

[Stax]

And he was Italian, by the way.

I'm smart.

[Soup Nazi]

When I said Bird was a "9" or "10" in all phases of the game, I was referring to the generally-accepted ones. rebounding, passing ability, scoring, free throw shooting (especially when it counted) FG shooting percentage, and even defensive ability. the fact that Bird excelled in all of these phases without being naturally-gifted with Dr. J's ability to jump out of the gym or blow by someone speaks even MORE to Bird's greatness.

Generally accepted ones? Generally accepted whats? Generally accepted statistical categories? There are dozens of facets to the game of basketball, and Bird was merely proficient in many of them. But if you do not consider athleticism and quickness to be "generally accepted phases of the game", then I do not know what to say. I guess we will just say from now on, that the generally accepted statistical phases of the game, should be the ones that Bird excelled in.

(this coming from a lakers fan who Bird broke his heart several times in the 1980's) when you were a kid. I actually watched both dr. J and Bird play live (yeah, live....not youtube) and trust me when I tell you Bird was a more valuable and better all-around player. If the poll was "who was the better athlete?" then you would be correct with the Doctor

I applaud the fact that you observed both of these players, and it does give you an interesting take on the situation. However, to fully analyze the situation, it would be necessary to know when you saw both players play live, and how often you saw them play live. If you saw both in say, 84-85, Bird was in his prime, J only had a couple years left. Not exactly a fair scenario for J. What I am pretty much saying is that unless you saw Bird play in the mid 80's and J play in the mid 70's your "live....not youtube" comment does not really sway me.

[Snatch]

There have been 25 Dr. J's, there will only be one Bird.

[Snatch]

I don't know too much about the validity of these stats, but...

Efficiency-
Dr J- 17th
Bird- 18th

Offensive Win Shares-
Dr. J- 15th
Bird- 23rd

Defensive Win Shares-
Dr. J- 11th
Bird- 21st

Total Win Shares-
Dr J- 11th
Bird- 18th

So, statistically, Dr. J > Bird.
I think in terms of intangibles, and who I'd want on a team I still take Bird.

[JT]

There have been 25 Dr. J's, there will only be one Bird.

Harold Miner

http://www.checkoutmycards.com/CardImages/Cards/013/812/08F.jpg

[Stax]

I think any photo of you shooting over Jordan automatically jumps to the top of the "Make a card/poster out of this" pile.

[Archangel]

There have been 25 Dr. J's, there will only be one Bird.

Really? 25? By my count, there've been three.

[Archangel]

I think any photo of you shooting over Jordan automatically jumps to the top of the "Make a card/poster out of this" pile.

Yep.

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m139/dannyoled/9293PlayoffsG2JohnStarksDunkJordanH.jpg

[Menace2Sobriety]

I'm still upset about these comparisons. The reason Bird didn't pave the way for anyone is because he was a more tenacious, instictive competitor. He was a unique player. The fact that Dr. J led to an infusion of swingmen doesnt strike me as an argument which makes him a better basketball player.

[Archangel]

Maybe not better, but certainly more influential, even though it can be argued that the actual template was indeed Baylor.
But there's no denying that kids watched Doc play, and said "that's who I want to be", one of those kids being MJ.

It all depends on how you want to look at it. Damn near every swingman in the game today was influenced by Doc, while Bird... Well, that's the point, isn't it? There is no other Bird. Timmy with more range, Dirk with better passing, Peja with balls (yes, Peja, you're 6'10". And yes, Peja, that means that you're allowed to get a rebound every once in a while), everybody sans athleticism... just ain't there. Obviously, some kids wanted to be like Larry, too, the difference being that the MJs. Kobes and LeBrons were actually good.

Does that make Bird more unique, or Doc more influential?

All I know is that Doc's Sixers swept the fuck out of the Lakers in '83, something the Celtics never managed.

[Menace2Sobriety]

Pretty clear that was largely due to Moses. BTW, best Celtics team didn't even face the Lakers, because they choked in the conference finals 86.
Everyone also knows (oh, appeal to authority) that Bird owned Dr. J when they went head-to-head, so long as we're gonna compare within the same era.