No Idea Whether Americans are Stupid, but redsox sure Makes a Compelling Case

[VoxAngelikus]

I would imagine, with the amount of Eurofags and non-Americans here at GMF, that this topic has been broached before - Are Americans stupid?

There are a number of reasons why one may say that this is indeed a fact.

Broadly speaking, Americans are more isolationist, less well-informed about politics and science, less interested in the fate of other nations, and more likely to hold absurd beliefs like astrology and alien abductions. We seem to be very easily manipulated by our media, believing whatever our televisions claim to be fact. If the news tells us that the world is getting warmer, we demand more action be taken to stop global warming without even questioning the facts. If the man on CNN says Iran is bad, we call its leaders "devils" and cry that the whole country is full of hateful warmongers that should be bombed into oblvion - without doing any fact checking of our own. If the talking heads spew 'facts' to us, we all pick sides and start regurgitating those talking points on internet discussion boards and talk-radio programs, trying to sound like we are well-versed in a variety of matters, when really most of us end up sounding like uneducated parrots. And the funny thing is, most of the media we place our trust in betrays us constantly.

Most of us have bought into the consumerist notion that we need to go to shopping malls and buy lots of stuff that does nothing to truly improve our lives. That can be seen throughout our country, as populated areas invariably spawn strip-malls filled with the same shit that can be found in practically every city across the country - Wal-Mart, Home Depot, K-Mart, Lowes, Staple, Old Navy, Target, Costco, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum, West Coast to East Coast, Canada to Mexico. They all have the same stuff, every store a chain of clones with the same products.

Despite countless news reports that we are an unhealthy nation of obese fatties, we continue pouring money into fast food restaurants that have responded by offering "healthy" food that is not healthy at all. In lieu of that, they will offer the nutritional values of their meals, many of which triple a normal person's suggested daily caloric intake.

We are slaves to the aforementioned televisions, suckers for sporting events and reality television and shows that distract the mind from the real world. We are bombarded with advertisements, forced to endure countless intrusions by corporation after corporation after corporation and we swallow it whole without question. We have to watch ads before movies. Before fucking movies! I remember when you went to a movie and there were previews then the feature. Now there are 15 ads for Coca-Cola, AMC Theaters, Sony, and anybody else that wants to throw money around to intrude on your time. And don't get me started on the movies themselves. A great film like "the Wrestler" has made $15 million while a piece of shit remake of "My Bloody Valentine" has made more that $50 million. Then we wonder why Hollywood keeps making shitty movies. We keep paying to see shit!

Ever watch a sporting event? Everything is sponsored by something. The Panasonic digital replay. The Chili's call to the bullpen. The Dunkin Donuts Two-Minute Warning. Even the name of our sports arenas have been sold out. Instead of honoring national or local heroes, we name our stadiums after corporations.

Americans across the spectrum do seem to have intelligence, from highly specialized mental abilities to common sense. They are not so stupid as to allow intellectuals to rule over them. Americans tend to be smart though sometimes they lack knowledge, or the knowledge they think with is untrue. We have thinkers without beliefs, fine minds with nothing in them.

This can be seen whenever you see an "on the street" interview, where Americans are asked simple questions about current events or our own history. You see people giving answers like this:

GeMhxvYq1Ww
A8SuCBHqXtQ

Someone thinks they have one kidney! Another person thinks there were three World Wars! Another thinks "Star Wars" was based on a true story! Another person thinks there are ten Eiffel Towers in Paris!

And we wonder why so many scholars and scientists come from other countries.

So I ask you, GMF, are Americans truly stupid? Or, are we just selfish and arrogant to the point that we are not so much stupid as were are uncaring about other people in other countries?

[Pax Britannia]

You could do a similar questionnaire in many cities around Europe and get similar responses. The average person is dumb and all they know is stuff taught to them at school which gradually erodes with age. We just have to face up to that fact.

[Stax]

You're being too specific and too broad at the same time.

Too specific because the proper statement is that PEOPLE are stupid. You could perform those same TV style tests of stupidity anywhere and over a couple hours of filming collect enough footage for your bit.

Too broad, however, because you paint all Americans with one brush. One rotten apple spoils the barrel, but a few rotten people don't spoil a nation.

We are slaves to the aforementioned televisions,

And that's unique to the US?

suckers for sporting events

Isn't the rest of the world the one obsessed with the "global sport" of soccer/futbol/football to the point of rioting over it? You see that occasionally in the US (maybe when a team wins the World Series, or at UConn when we win a national title), but I hardly think liking sports is a sign of stupidity.

and reality television and shows that distract the mind from the real world.

Isn't Great Britain the nation with the far more successful tabloid industry, to the point of many being sold just as normal papers basically? Aren't they the original source of a lot of the reality TV you speak of?

We have to watch ads before movies. Before fucking movies! I remember when you went to a movie and there were previews then the feature. Now there are 15 ads for Coca-Cola, AMC Theaters, Sony, and anybody else that wants to throw money around to intrude on your time....

Ever watch a sporting event? Everything is sponsored by something. The Panasonic digital replay. The Chili's call to the bullpen. The Dunkin Donuts Two-Minute Warning. Even the name of our sports arenas have been sold out. Instead of honoring national or local heroes, we name our stadiums after corporations.

They found a way to make money... Oh no... These seem far more like a random gripe than anything to do with intelligence.

And don't get me started on the movies themselves. A great film like "the Wrestler" has made $15 million while a piece of shit remake of "My Bloody Valentine" has made more that $50 million. Then we wonder why Hollywood keeps making shitty movies. We keep paying to see shit!

No way, class and quality doesn't always beat out appealing to the masses?! Better tell that to all those grand master painters who were so successful in their own times... Oh wait. Tell the Romans, one of the great pillars of society, who never ever appealed to the base of society with giant festivals and competitions celebrating death and other base instincts? Oh wait.

[Yelram]

Humans are stupid.You are seeing it the total opposite of reality. We get what we want, plain and simple, that to you may translate as some sort of stupidity, or lack of aptitude, but if people didnt want it, much of what you posted wouldnt exist. Are americans disciplined? I would say no to that certainly. Are Americans spoiled? I would say yes to that, but the person that is indulging their every want and need, isnt exactly "stupid", they just know what they want, regardless of what others tell them. You think people want Mcdonalds because they advertise or something. Yeah, like if they took off all advertisements, that Mcdonalds would suddenly go broke or something.

[Pax Britannia]

I'm tempted to say the modern education system world wide is failing us yet there are allot of intelligent people on GMF who's views I find insightful and interesting. Maybe it's just idiocracy comming into effect. I'm 23 and have no children, I bumped into an old classmate of mine yesterday who dropped out of school at 16 due to pregnancy. She now has 3 children and she's under 25. She's a nice enough girl but thick as shit, yet it seems like her bloodline is well assured to continue into the future. Hell she might even have more kids.

Lets say she has 2 more kids before she's 35 and I have one kid when i'm about 30. When my kid goes to school he will be swamped by the 5:1 ratio of retards.

[VoxAngelikus]

There is a stereotype that Americans are stupid. My initial post aside, the question I am posing is whether or not there is any credence to that stereotype. Are Americans stupid? If my examples are not the best (which I don't claim them to be), I am not looking to have that pointed out to me.

Lots of people are stupid. No shit. But the stereotype has to exist for a reason? Is it justified?

[Phil Theehor]

Americans, Vox, are everything. Because of our size and diversity, you can subsititute any adjective for stupid in your thread question and the answer will still be yes. We've got it all.

[Stax]

There is a stereotype that Americans are stupid. My initial post aside, the question I am posing is whether or not there is any credence to that stereotype. Are Americans stupid? If my examples are not the best (which I don't claim them to be), I am not looking to have that pointed out to me.

Lots of people are stupid. No shit. But the stereotype has to exist for a reason? Is it justified?

Americans are on average, yes, stupid by most metrics. Our public education system sucks and our literacy/mathematics/etc rates are all laughably pathetic for a 1st world industrialized nation as rich as ours. But at the same time the world's top 10 (15?) universities are all in the US. Fantastic work in all sorts of fields is done in the United States. We have our stupid people, as all nations do, but that doesn't mean you can say "Oh, you're American? So you're stupid."

[freegood]

Americans are as ignorant as anyone else. Other countries demand more from Americans because we tout our freedom and our democracy as values to be emulated, yet individually it's taken for granted or pissed upon as burdens to society.

Some of it does tie with our consumerist culture because despite the lazy stereotype, Americans who do work work a lot of hours and you could even say half among them work pretty damn hard for their job. And since we collectively think we work hard, we want to party hard to make every hour count. We're entitled to that time damnit. That time is MY time.

So yeah, who wants to read some depressing shit on the news (all manufactured lies just like evolution and global warming) on their FREE time when they could do something more enjoyable like judging a slut in the Real World?

Americans aren't stupid. Most of us just don't care, and any other country in our position would act the same sad way.

[Pax Britannia]

There is a stereotype that Americans are stupid. My initial post aside, the question I am posing is whether or not there is any credence to that stereotype. Are Americans stupid? If my examples are not the best (which I don't claim them to be), I am not looking to have that pointed out to me.

Lots of people are stupid. No shit. But the stereotype has to exist for a reason? Is it justified?

I'm saying their not anymore stupid than anyone else. Those clips you posted came from an Australian comedy show I believe, so they have obviously been edited to show the retards. However I do appreciate the reason you posted them may have been to show how other cultures stereotype american stupidity.

In my personal experience Americans arent stupid. They are just on average very poorly informed about the rest of the world.

[Stax]

Also,

OYfvDCSWu3s

[VoxAngelikus]

In my personal experience Americans arent stupid. They are just on average very poorly informed about the rest of the world.

That is most definitely the truth. I don't claim to have vast knowledge of the world, but some people are unaware of basic facts.

[Stax]

That is most definitely the truth. I don't claim to have vast knowledge of the world, but some people are unaware of basic facts.

To be quite honest I'm not sure I could place the Sudan or which bit or it was Darfur on a map (the region, yes, specifically though, no). Does that mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion on said conflict (to pick a chintzy, easy example).

[Pax Britannia]

To be quite honest I'm not sure I could place the Sudan or which bit or it was Darfur on a map (the region, yes, specifically though, no). Does that mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion on said conflict (to pick a chintzy, easy example).

You can have the opinion but in my eyes it's far less valid than someone elses who can actually place Sudan on a map.

I dont think people should be stopped from giving opinions on things just because they arent 100% aware of all the facts. It's just the less they know the less valid their opinion is.

Thats just my personal view.

[Face]

people are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it

[VoxAngelikus]

To be quite honest I'm not sure I could place the Sudan or which bit or it was Darfur on a map (the region, yes, specifically though, no). Does that mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion on said conflict (to pick a chintzy, easy example).

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion. Personally, I like to learn a little bit about the subject matter before I form an opinion. Not knowing where Darfur is does not mean you can't form an opinion of the situation. But I would think if you did have a feeling one way or the other you would want to educate yourself first. I could say that I think Iran is an evil country. But if I don't do a little background into that opinion, I don't find out that the country of Iran is a lot more than the stereotype propagated by the American media. And I look like a fool.

[Morfin]

These are two posts from a thread a couple months ago, which addresses this from a slightly different angle: insularity vs. ignorance. I don't perceive this thread being so much American's aren't intelligent, but more, why are they do they appear so ignorant of the world outside of the U.S.

I was too lazy to recreate the thoughts again, so I am merely reposting them:

This is an American phenomenon that I think is a direct result of being able to maintain a lifestyle of laziness, arrogance, and ignorance. We are oceans away from europe and most of our roots, so most of us are not well traveled and versed in foreign cultures and ideals. I would guess that of the citizens that say America is the greatest country in the world, only 20% of them have actually left the country in their entire lifetime. Our news and media outlets are all american and american propaganda influenced, so our information is largly ratings based. We see atrocities on the news and don't even miss a single bite of dinner because we are more removed from it than the rest of the world. Our public education system gets people just smart enough to survive, but keeps us just dumb enough to do things like elect Dubbya because "he seems like a normal/everyday guy". I'm not taking any political party's side, but when the majority of a country thinks it's ok to have a president that sounds like a dumbass, something is wrong. Notice I didn't say that he is a dumbass, because that is impossible for me to know, but I don't think there are many people that will argue that he doesn't sound dumb. Our 2 party system further limits our political scope by classifying everything into 2 political agendas/beliefs. This makes it easy for us lazy americans do align ourselves with one of two groups of ideals determined by a few people in 2 parties. We get a team mentality and start seeing our grey world in black and white. What are we left with? Americans that are just smart enough to not have any idea how dumb we actually are and can actually have opinions based upon things that only experts can truly understand.

Tar Heel: I am going off on a tangent from the OT, but I, as Arch probably knew I would at some point, take issue with the idea that this is an American phenomenon. We are discussing several things simultaneously, so I will divide them out.

First, Arch, in his original post commented that American religions are somewhat to blame. I agree that American religions deserve blame in terms of schools of thought and dogma. But I do not believe this is a solely-American problem. One only needs to look to the Catholic Church to see the prime example of dictated and narrow-minded thought (Galileo, anyone?). Don't forget that while the Puritans did come to American, they also were oppressed (rightly or wrongly) by England and the Netherlands as well. And we certainly don't need to be reminded of those wacky broad-minded fundamental Muslims.

Second, while I do not disagree that many Americans are lazy, arrogant, and ignorant, I take issue with its cause. Yes, the media is American-centric -- one merely has to watch an Olympics telecast to see that. But that is due, in my opinion, to the lack of any non-American media that Americans can see. We, who live on the U.S./Canadian border are able to see the CBC (and Canadian Olympics telecasts) because the CBC is on our cable system. Therefore, we have a little familiarity with it.

But now contrast that with Europe. Due to the fact that there are many different countries in a small area, a multitude of different media from numerous countries are available. Plus, there are different countries and peoples just a few miles away from anywhere in Europe. Look at the vast number of Americans: we have to travel hundreds, if not thousands, of miles to reach another country. So we see and experience only Americans. For us, to travel to an actual different culture, with a different language, we pretty much need to drive to Mexico or fly a long ways. In Europe, you can drive or take short flights to numerous countries. Financial barriers to international travel are much smaller than in Europe.

So, to wrap this up, so I can have another Diet Coke, I do not totally blame America and Americans. Europeans have to understand the context of why we tend to be so insular.

[Tar Heel]

I would say Americans are more ignorant than stupid, but still fairly stupid. But I think that is by design. Dumb people are easier to control.

[Stax]

You can have the opinion but in my eyes it's far less valid than someone elses who can actually place Sudan on a map.

I dont think people should be stopped from giving opinions on things just because they arent 100% aware of all the facts. It's just the less they know the less valid their opinion is.

Thats just my personal view.

Why? Obviously some of the factors are geographic (but those are mostly regional, and I understand those forces)? Why is an opinion less valid on it's face because the person doesn't know something related to some part of an issue?

The double steal is a rarely used, risky tactic in baseball (yes, I am going from Sudanese genocide to double stealing in baseball). You can be a perfectly informed baseball fan who gives perfectly good and solid opinions without knowing what the double steal is.

My point is simply I think people are too quick to make simplistic judgments of people and opinions. Take, for example, Obama's broken promise to not hire any lobbyists to work in the White House. Obviously that was an unrealistic promise and not surprisingly he broke it quite quickly. However the problem isn't simply someone who has ever held the job title "Lobbyist" crossing the doorway of the White House, it's the more complicated idea of someone behind closed doors working for a particular interest group giving them an inside man. Simply having been a lobbyist doesn't automatically mean you will behave that way. But Obama made a blanket statement (rather than what would've been less effective but likely more truthful, "I won't let any lobbying influences unfairly influence my decisions") and looks bad.

[Pax Britannia]

Why? Obviously some of the factors are geographic (but those are mostly regional, and I understand those forces)? Why is an opinion less valid on it's face because the person doesn't know something related to some part of an issue?

The double steal is a rarely used, risky tactic in baseball (yes, I am going from Sudanese genocide to double stealing in baseball). You can be a perfectly informed baseball fan who gives perfectly good and solid opinions without knowing what the double steal is.

My point is simply I think people are too quick to make simplistic judgments of people and opinions. Take, for example, Obama's broken promise to not hire any lobbyists to work in the White House. Obviously that was an unrealistic promise and not surprisingly he broke it quite quickly. However the problem isn't simply someone who has ever held the job title "Lobbyist" crossing the doorway of the White House, it's the more complicated idea of someone behind closed doors working for a particular interest group giving them an inside man. Simply having been a lobbyist doesn't automatically mean you will behave that way. But Obama made a blanket statement (rather than what would've been less effective but likely more truthful, "I won't let any lobbying influences unfairly influence my decisions") and looks bad.

Just my personal view. I'm not saying its right or wrong. Interesting though that you used a sports analogy first off because that's how I was thinking. Personally I know fuck all about Rugby, so when I occasionally watch a match and complain about the tactics people around me usually say "what the hell do you know about it?" and the fact is they are right and im wrong.

Imagine for a second this scenerio:

"Do you know anything about Albania?"
"No"
"It's history, leaders or position on the world stage?"
"No"
"Well I think they have WMD's and we should attack dont you?"
"Oh well then yes of course!"

Cause given the response of some people i've seen on both British and American streets that convo may well happen (and has in Iraq's case). What i'm getting at is someone who is less informed whilst entitled to an opinion shouldnt have it taken as seriously as say a career diplomat or someone else thoroughly briefed on the situation.

[VoxAngelikus]

Why is an opinion less valid on it's face because the person doesn't know something related to some part of an issue?


Not knowing all facets of an issue is understandable. But if I want to argue that I think Iran is a threat to Europe, I'd better know where the fuck Iran is, and whether or not my opinion is valid.

The location of Sudan, and of Darfur, in relation to the countries around it, could not only change your opinions, but refine them so that any arguments you have are more sound.

[Stax]

Just my personal view. I'm not saying its right or wrong. Interesting though that you used a sports analogy first off because that's how I was thinking. Personally I know fuck all about Rugby, so when I occasionally watch a match and complain about the tactics people around me usually say "what the hell do you know about it?" and the fact is they are right and im wrong.

Right, but to me that's the difference between knowing "fuck all" and missing some piece of data.

Imagine for a second this scenerio:

"Do you know anything about Albania?"
"No"
"It's history, leaders or position on the world stage?"
"No"
"Well I think they have WMD's and we should attack dont you?"
"Oh well then yes of course!"

Cause given the response of some people i've seen on both British and American streets that convo may well happen. What i'm getting at is someone who is less informed whilst entitled to an opinion shouldnt have it taken as seriously as say a career diplomat or someone else thoroughly briefed on the situation.

Well first of all I'd say that, regardless of other nice outside forces like a nation's international place, a hostile nation (not saying Albania fits here) with WMDs is a pretty solid cause for war to start with. The problem with line drawing for opinions (you can just ignore stupid people in your personal life, but when you get to things like governing in a democracy such line-drawing can really matter) is the same problem with all line drawing. Who draws the line and where does it go?

Literacy tests (unfairly applied, but still) were used for a generation to keep African Americans from voting. What is the "acceptable level" of education/intelligence/informativeness to cast an impactful opinion (in this example a vote)? Should different tests be used for different issues (you have to take a Con Law test to vote on CT's Ballot Issue #1, whether the state should hold a Constitutional Convention, but just a general government test for voting for reps/senators/governor/president?)? Who gets to define how that knowledge is quantified? Once you move away from the bright-line rule of "Everybody gets an opinion, judge it as you will" the water becomes a lot murkier.

[Stax]

Not knowing all facets of an issue is understandable. But if I want to argue that I think Iran is a threat to Europe, I'd better know where the fuck Iran is, and whether or not my opinion is valid.

The location of Sudan, and of Darfur, in relation to the countries around it, could not only change your opinions, but refine them so that any arguments you have are more sound.

Isn't knowing the general fact that the Sudan provides a mixture of Middle Eastern/Islamic and African culture (rather at the center of the conflict) more important than the precise longitude and latitude?

[Pax Britannia]

Right, but to me that's the difference between knowing "fuck all" and missing some piece of data.



Well first of all I'd say that, regardless of other nice outside forces like a nation's international place, a hostile nation (not saying Albania fits here) with WMDs is a pretty solid cause for war to start with. The problem with line drawing for opinions (you can just ignore stupid people in your personal life, but when you get to things like governing in a democracy such line-drawing can really matter) is the same problem with all line drawing. Who draws the line and where does it go?

Literacy tests (unfairly applied, but still) were used for a generation to keep African Americans from voting. What is the "acceptable level" of education/intelligence/informativeness to cast an impactful opinion (in this example a vote)? Should different tests be used for different issues (you have to take a Con Law test to vote on CT's Ballot Issue #1, whether the state should hold a Constitutional Convention, but just a general government test for voting for reps/senators/governor/president?)? Who gets to define how that knowledge is quantified. Once you move away from the bright-line rule of "Everybody gets an opinion, judge it as you will" the water becomes a lot murkier.

I dont think your getting me here. I'm not saying to ignore or disenfranchise anyone. I'm saying in my personal view people who dont know the full facts about the situation have opinions less valuable than those with all the facts.

I dont want to get into how much people should know or where the basic level of knowledge on an issue before an opinion can be expressed is because as I said in a previous post I think anyone can give an opinion on something. I just think they should expect to have their less informed opinion be overlooked by someone else with more info.

[Morfin]

What i'm getting at is someone who is less informed whilst entitled to an opinion shouldnt have it taken as seriously as say a career diplomat or someone else thoroughly briefed on the situation.

Of course that is true. And that is why I get so pissed when actors or celebrities start spouting off about politics. Yeah, I'm looking at you Alec, Kanye, and my latest favorite, Jenny McCarthy trying to tell people that autism is caused by vaccines.

They have the right to their opinion. But, as to politics, it is no more informed than any goomba off the street. Unfortunately, I fear that people base their opinion on what celebrities say.

[Rover]

Without turning this into the Darfur conflict thread, unless you know where the Sudan is, and how it's geography influences the conflicts that are ocurring there, your position becomes: I'm against the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

That's hardly a life altering or complicated opinion to form.

On topic:

Everything everyone's said about geographic isolation is true. We're alone, separated from the rest of the world by oceans that are expensive to cross. We have America-lite to the north and our labor pool to the south. The average American doesn't interact with the rest of the world because we don't have to. I've spent weeks driving around this country, and never once did I run into someone whose background was significantly different from mine. We spoke the same language, watched the same TV, listened to the same music, worshipped the same God, etc.

I can't drive in Europe for a day and not run into significantly different cultures.

[VoxAngelikus]

Isn't knowing the general fact that the Sudan provides a mixture of Middle Eastern/Islamic and African culture (rather at the center of the conflict) more important than the precise longitude and latitude?


All I am saying is that if you are going to take the time to form an opinion about a topic, the simple stuff should come first. With Darfur, it's not hard to wiki "Sudan" and find out where you are talking about.

[redsox39]

That is most definitely the truth. I don't claim to have vast knowledge of the world, but some people are unaware of basic facts.

Wait...there are other countries besides Canada, Mexico and Iraq?

[Stax]

I dont think your getting me here. I'm not saying to ignore or disenfranchise anyone. I'm saying in my personal view people who dont know the full facts about the situation have opinions less valuable than those with all the facts.

I dont want to get into how much people should know or where the basic level of knowledge on an issue before an opinion can be expressed is because as I said in a previous post I think anyone can give an opinion on something. I just think they should expect to have their less informed opinion be overlooked by someone else with more info.

At least on the examples Morfin gave, yes this is true. But hearing the opinions of celebrities and such above the truly informed is hardly surprising, they have greater resources and influence to be heard in the first place.

Where was the outcry on the rest of the world commenting on the US presidential election, talking about how much they wanted Obama's victory when I'd bet a great many of them had little familiarity with the ins and outs of the specific issues at play?

[Stax]

Wait...there are other countries besides Canada, Mexico and Iraq?

There's Afghanistan. And that place where those funny guards who aren't supposed to smile live.

[Morfin]

Where was the outcry on the rest of the world commenting on the US presidential election, talking about how much they wanted Obama's victory when I'd bet a great many of them had little familiarity with the ins and outs of the specific issues at play?

There's no reason for outcry. The World and individual countries form their opinion based on how it will affect them and world events. I don't believe the World cares whether Obama allows lobbyists into the Administration or not. However, they will have a view in regard to foreign policy vis a vis their own country and world events, such as Iraq, North Korea, and the Middle East.

[Stax]

There's no reason for outcry. The World and individual countries form their opinion based on how it will affect them and world events. I don't believe the World cares whether Obama allows lobbyists into the Administration or not. However, they will have a view in regard to foreign policy vis a vis their own country and world events, such as Iraq, North Korea, and the Middle East.

So why should the United States care about the intricacies of global politics other than "Those guys with towels on their heads want to shoot us, lets go shoot them"?

[Pax Britannia]

Where was the outcry on the rest of the world commenting on the US presidential election, talking about how much they wanted Obama's victory when I'd bet a great many of them had little familiarity with the ins and outs of the specific issues at play?

I follow American politics closely and sneered at anyone down the pub who voiced hopes for an Obama victory, does that count?

[Pax Britannia]

So why should the United States care about the intricacies of global politics other than "Those guys with towels on their heads want to shoot us, lets go shoot them"?

Seriously though you may not know it but British news tends to cover politics world wide. When an important nation has an election it's covered on a nightly basis. In the case of America the primaries as well as the campaign were major news items on nightly news.

[Phil Theehor]

I think the proper American response is, "Yeah and so what?"

Our isolation has given us the luxury of ignorance. And what's so wrong with that? By most measures, the US is the most successful, innovative country in the world. I think a lot of that can be attributed to our selfishness. And please note, I don't use selfish in a negative way here. We worry about taking care of ourselves and do a good job of that for the most part. And look at the results. Our system is so fucking good that the morons in the video clips are (probably) able to support themselves here.

Individually, we know what we need to know to do what we need to do to take care of ourselves. Should you ask any more of your people than that? How many countries would trade what they have for a nice helping of US stupidity?

And I would love to see us return to the positive aspects of isolationism, where we don't interfere in anyone else's business, where trade was cash n' carry. I can think of nothing more beautiful than Iran or Albania or Sudan becoming irrelevant to us. The rest of the world (except the Brits and Canadians-- we love you guys) would cheer if we left the world stage-- at least for a couple of years.

[Stax]

Seriously though you may not know it but British news tends to cover politics world wide. When an important nation has an election it's covered on a nightly basis. In the case of America the primaries as well as the campaign were major news items on nightly news.

And in the same way the US cannot experience the cultural multitudes of Europe, Europe cannot experience the political specifics of the United States. Yet apparently opinions flowing one way are ok and the other way aren't?

[Limp]

Scientific proof American's are smart. (www.meatspin.com)

[Pax Britannia]

And in the same way the US cannot experience the cultural multitudes of Europe, Europe cannot experience the political specifics of the United States. Yet apparently opinions flowing one way are ok and the other way aren't?

I have CNN, CNBC, Fox News, Bloomberg, ABC at my finger tips. I can pretty much see the same news on a nightly basis that you do.

I'm not saying you should be quite as involved in other countries politics as me but I will make the case that people in Europe do have access to allot of American news if they wish to see it.

[Stax]

I have CNN, CNBC, Fox News, Bloomberg, ABC at my finger tips. I can pretty much see the same news on a nightly basis that you do.

I'm not saying you should be quite as involved in other countries politics as me but I will make the case that people in Europe do have access to allot of American news if they wish to see it.

News /=/ Experience. Your friends (well, this is a bad choice since Britain has troops committed but) aren't going off to fight in a war that has no reason to be taking place. Your mother isn't the one about to lose her job as the economy contracts. You don't live across the street from a Planned Parenthood and hear whiny old people yelling at pregnant mothers in liberal northeastern Connecticut.

I don't disagree that you should be just as able to form an opinion on this as anything else, I'm just saying don't get pissy when Americans do the same the other way.

[Pax Britannia]

News /=/ Experience. Your friends (well, this is a bad choice since Britain has troops committed but) aren't going off to fight in a war that has no reason to be taking place. Your mother isn't the one about to lose her job as the economy contracts. You don't live across the street from a Planned Parenthood and hear whiny old people yelling at pregnant mothers in liberal northeastern Connecticut.

It's funny how much that is like Britain actually (aside from the accent!).

I don't disagree that you should be just as able to form an opinion on this as anything else, I'm just saying don't get pissy when Americans do the same the other way.

I dont. Like i've said repeatedly I just overlook stupid people. Though I do understand the thrust of your argument I think it's more aimed at your typical angry arrogant European than me.

[freegood]

All I am saying is that if you are going to take the time to form an opinion about a topic, the simple stuff should come first. With Darfur, it's not hard to wiki "Sudan" and find out where you are talking about.

Opinions come easy. We're an expert driven society. Doesn't mean our experts know what they're saying or even honest (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/washington/20generals.html?_r=2&hp=&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin).

Take Yelram for instance. He's definitely taken the time to read up on some subjects, but his sources are out there to the point where one suspects he hasn't read more mainstream ideas to challenge his deductive thinking.

But that's where we're at right now...Drudge vs. Huffington Post. I can rip opinions and facts of others to form my own opinion, but reading more is not enough. It takes both...quality and quantity, but that's a shit load of time for information that isn't immediately useful.

It goes back to the genuine stupidity vs. ignorance debate for me.

[Stax]

I dont. Like i've said repeatedly I just overlook stupid people. Though I do understand the thrust of your argument I think it's more aimed at your typical angry arrogant European than me.

Sorry, most of this is just pent up annoyance with Arch. You foreigners are all the same.

[Yelram]

Take Yelram for instance. He's definitely taken the time to read up on some subjects, but his sources are out there to the point where one suspects he hasn't read more mainstream ideas to challenge his deductive thinking.


I read both sides, and then once I form my opinion, I come on here and argue moonbat liberals, I'd say i'm in the top 10% of people who understand whats going on politically in this country. My deductive thinking doesnt come from sources, it comes from running a fucking business, and growing up in a small business environment. Thats how a democracy works. If we just allowed elites to rule from their ivory towers, the true situation on the ground will be dwarfed by what the "wizards of smart" decide to do. If you dont think I KNOW what mainstream ideas are, you dont pay attention to my posts enough. There was a time when you used to be rather rational, but it seems you've caught the jungle fever, and cant seem to fall over fast enough to undermine anyones unfavorable opinion of Obama. There was a time, and the posts on the old site will reveal this, when I was very openly "pro-Obama" Then he proceeded to promise everyone everything, and lie through his teeth, then I realized we were just getting a mascot for a new brand of European socialism.You self proclaimed "intellectuals" on here can hardly make a cohesive argument anymore, it always devolves into "These people are "smart", and those are "stupid", so I agree with the "smart" ones?

[Archangel]

Whoa whoa whoa.

How did I ever miss this?

Anyway, in case anyone's interested, here are my 2 cents. The isolation factor and the influence of the media have already been perfectly analysed by you guys, so I won't even get into those.


Americans, as a people, aren't more "stupid" than anybody else. Hell, I'm fairly certain that the average American is smarter than the average Turk or Arab. And since America can lay claim to most of the world's greatest universities, and many of the finest museums, orchestras, art galleries and theatre stages on earth, Americans can't all be ignorant, either.

However, there are quite a few cultural differences between European and American society, some of which have significantly contributed to the stereotype of the dumb American: One always has to keep in mind that relationships between societies are always defined by inferiority complexes and the compensation thereof.

First, there's the relative youth of your nation, coupled with its extreme wealth. And Europe being far more class-driven as a society than America (and far less socially porous as a result), if there's one thing that Europeans despise, it's the newly rich. I remember when I was dating a baroness, one of my friends said, "please, those parvenus were only ennobled 300 years ago".
Now, you have to consider that only a few decades ago, overseas travel was the province of only two types of people - emigrants and the jet set. And while (generalisation) most Europeans who could afford to visit the US were old money, with the breeding and education that that entailed, many rich Americans visiting Europe were self made men - something that is the biggest compliment in America, but can be a deadly insult here.
So one part of the stereotype was born because of the divergence in education among your rich folk and ours; we didn't have working class people from our equivalent of Idaho making millions off some smart business idea and deciding to visit France, because our working class stayed poor. My parents' generation was fucking shocked that somebody wealthy enough to fly around the world had no idea what the Spanish royal palace was called. America never had "noblesse oblige".
And if their upper classes were that ignorant, how much dumber must their "normal" people be? We just didn't understand that basically, your entire country was working class.

Put simply, what we did was to put up "class" as a defence against your frankly superior wealth. We may have conceded that you were crafty, street smart and clever, but we laughed at your boorishness and lack of manners. But what do you expect, if the biggest kid on the block got rich off getting the best paper routes, and also happened to have the biggest stick? Boorishness came with the territory.

Furthermore, you were trendsetters. The only difference between television dumbing down your masses and doing the same to ours are the 20-25 years between the point where the average American could afford a TV and the one at which the average European could.


However, there is one previously mentioned aspect here which I'd like to get into, because I disagree with much of what has been said.

The influence of sports on American society cannot be denied. Stax said that football played a huge role in our lives, and while that is true, it's nowhere near as all pervasive in our society as it is in yours. The rioting has nothing to do with the fact that we are more passionate about Bayer Leverkusen than you are about the Yankees: It has something to do with the fact that the rivalries here are far less artificial than in American sports. Our "rival" teams are 3 miles apart, not 300; and they were born as the teams of two different neighbourhoods, factories, docks, even pubs which had already been rivals for decades or centuries before football ever came into play. Basically, a football riot is a bar brawl writ large. Or just think that half of football matches here are like UNC v Duke, but with the fans being dockworkers rather than college kids.
Also, we have far fewer "major" sports to follow than you do; football reigns supreme here - the average sports fan here would follow football and/or one other sport such as F1 or rugby. Plus, you have to consider that for the most part, matches are only on weekends, not all through the week like baseball or basketball.

But the main difference is the almost total lack of school/university athletics on the continent. If two university teams play basketball here, they have 4 spectators, not 40 million. In high school, you have 2 hours of PE per week and that's it. If you want to play football, you join a fucking club's youth program, and millions of kids do - but in a reality totally detached from their school life. So you can be the best athlete in your town, and nobody in your school will bloody care. So imagine an entire education programme with no jock worship, no free passes on exams, no cheerleaders, and no illiterates getting into college because they can throw a ball - and being the biggest heroes on campus once they're there.

Don't you think there would be a difference if North Carolina's most famous figures were its Nobel laureates, and not its basketball coaches?

There's other stuff, as well, but the post has gone on long enough already.

[Tar Heel]

I disagree with anyone who makes Obama/Socialist references. He may be a bullshitter like Clinton, but calling him a socialist is categorically false. For example, wanting something like a government controlled healthcare system isn't socialist. We have gvt controlled schools for christ sake. We learn what the govt tells us we need to learn. That seems like it would be way more of a socialist idea than guaranteeing healthcare to our citizens. Anytime the government wants to help the people with a program like that, you will see the corporate lobbies come out of the woodwork. We have tons of shit in this country that's govt controlled and plenty of non socialist countries have other systems that work great. Why are we so resistant to learning from the success of others. We have one of the worst healthcare systems in the world. Also, I think regulating the shit out of big business is a great thing. If the govt had some oversight into the subprime scandal earlier, it could have been called what it was and avoided. You can not allow big business to self regulate. Greed will always run rampant. It’s the main reason that health care companies do everything they can to deny your coverage. Anyone here have dental insurance that covers something besides cleanings? No? that’s what I thought. That shit is so ridiculous. My wife has the best dental ins you can buy, but when she had to have a simple root canal, only ¼ of it was covered. I’m lucky I have good teeth, but I bet it sucks to be a West Virginian.

[UNC]

If you compare us to Japan...maybe.

Were smarter than everyone else

[Yelram]

So when did you get back, and where did you send that other guy(arch)?

[}{arlequin]

i understand that is not the actual question that has been asked, but every country has its share of stupid people.

[Archangel]

So when did you get back, and where did you send that other guy(arch)?

Just you wait until I get to the influence of religion and politics on American society. You'll probably recognise me then.

[Face]

Were smarter than everyone else
oh sweet irony

[Yelram]

I disagree with anyone who makes Obama/Socialist references. He may be a bullshitter like Clinton, but calling him a socialist is categorically false. For example, wanting something like a government controlled healthcare system isn't socialist. We have gvt controlled schools for christ sake. We learn what the govt tells us we need to learn. That seems like it would be way more of a socialist idea than guaranteeing healthcare to our citizens. Anytime the government wants to help the people with a program like that, you will see the corporate lobbies come out of the woodwork. We have tons of shit inj this country that's govt controlled and plenty of non socialist countries have other systems that work great. Why are we so resisten to learning from the success of others. We have one of the worst healthcare systems in the world. Also, I think regulating the shit out of big business is a great thing. If the govt had some oversight into the subprime scandal earlier, it could have been called what it was and avoided. You can not allow big business to self regulate. Greed will always run rampant. It’s the main reason that health care companies do everything they can to deny your coverage. Anyone here have dental insurance that covers something besides cleanings? No? that’s what I thought. That shit is so ridiculous. My wife has the best dental ins you can buy, but when she had to have a simple root canal, only ¼ of it was covered. I’m lucky I have good teeth, but I bet it sucks to be a West Virginian.

The schools used to be purely the responsibility of the State, until the federal government saw fit to "fix" them. We do not have the worst healthcare system in the world, that is absolutely, totally NOT TRUE. The criteria they are measuring is obviously going to misrepresent our system. It is trying to compare universal coverage, to availability of coverage. If you have the money, you will get treated. So they see this as a fault in the system, where most people see this as what happens in a free market. Americans tend to be overall, less concerned about health than many other nations. Thats fine with me, the governments job is not to monitor and influence my eating habits, or if I want to smoke, which is the inevitable slippery slope, government oversight of each "asset" and what they are going to cost the government, vs pay out over the course of their lives. Other countries are using the benefits of our system to lower their own primary costs. Where do all the experimental methods come from? R&D? They sure as hell arent going to be tolerated in a place where they judge the usefulness of a procedure from a cost/benefits ratio. If socialized medicine was the only thing available in the 70s, open heart surgery would have never been realized to the point it is today. The subprime thing happened purely because government ENCOURAGED lending, and BACKED IT with your tax dollars. Business is going to do what it does best. If the government offered 50 dollars a pound for river rocks, and people brought in all their rocks, and the government went broke, would you say "those evil greedy people, and their rock collecting companies"? Obama is most certainly a socialist, by every definition of the word.

[redsox39]

I disagree with anyone who makes Obama/Socialist references. He may be a bullshitter like Clinton, but calling him a socialist is categorically false. For example, wanting something like a government controlled healthcare system isn't socialist. We have gvt controlled schools for christ sake. We learn what the govt tells us we need to learn. That seems like it would be way more of a socialist idea than guaranteeing healthcare to our citizens. Anytime the government wants to help the people with a program like that, you will see the corporate lobbies come out of the woodwork. We have tons of shit in this country that's govt controlled and plenty of non socialist countries have other systems that work great. Why are we so resistant to learning from the success of others. We have one of the worst healthcare systems in the world. Also, I think regulating the shit out of big business is a great thing. If the govt had some oversight into the subprime scandal earlier, it could have been called what it was and avoided. You can not allow big business to self regulate. Greed will always run rampant. It’s the main reason that health care companies do everything they can to deny your coverage. Anyone here have dental insurance that covers something besides cleanings? No? that’s what I thought. That shit is so ridiculous. My wife has the best dental ins you can buy, but when she had to have a simple root canal, only ¼ of it was covered. I’m lucky I have good teeth, but I bet it sucks to be a West Virginian.

My insurance is great thorugh my job. I pay about $300 a month and that cover damn near everything for my entire family. My wife got her 2 teeth knocked out at softball. Covered. I had my Gall bladder removed. covered. My Kids are healthy, so I feel like I am being ripped off, but oh well.

[Tar Heel]

The schools used to be purely the responsibility of the State, until the federal government saw fit to "fix" them. We do not have the worst healthcare system in the world, that is absolutely, totally NOT TRUE. The criteria they are measuring is obviously going to misrepresent our system. It is trying to compare universal coverage, to availability of coverage. If you have the money, you will get treated. So they see this as a fault in the system, where most people see this as what happens in a free market. Americans tend to be overall, less concerned about health than many other nations. Thats fine with me, the governments job is not to monitor and influence my eating habits, or if I want to smoke, which is the inevitable slippery slope, government oversight of each "asset" and what they are going to cost the government, vs pay out over the course of their lives. Other countries are using the benefits of our system to lower their own primary costs. Where do all the experimental methods come from? R&D? They sure as hell arent going to be tolerated in a place where they judge the usefulness of a procedure from a cost/benefits ratio. If socialized medicine was the only thing available in the 70s, open heart surgery would have never been realized to the point it is today. The subprime thing happened purely because government ENCOURAGED lending, and BACKED IT with your tax dollars. Business is going to do what it does best. If the government offered 50 dollars a pound for river rocks, and people brought in all their rocks, and the government went broke, would you say "those evil greedy people, and their rock collecting companies"? Obama is most certainly a socialist, by every definition of the word.

With the housing market the government fucked up royally to by encouraging something that they had just deregulated and restricted their own access to. It was the pinnacle of irresponsibility.

Also I said "one of" the worst healthcare systems. And that is completely true when you exclude the places that still tell you to rape a small child to get rid of your AIDS.
The World Health Organization's ratings:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Shit, Cuba has a better infant mortality rate than we do. Also, you say that Americans aren't as concerned with their health as other nations? Why do you think that inference is made? Maybe it has something to do with how much of a bitch it is to deal with insurance companies. I know if healtch care were free, I'd be at the doctor gettig my checkups far more often. I know I have skipped doctors visits for that very reason. I think it is foolish to assume that Americans actually care less about their health than other nations. It sounds like something a HMO representative would say.

[Morfin]

http://assets.comics.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/200000/70000/2000/900/272984/272984.full.gif (http://comics.com/luann/2009-02-03/)

[redsox39]

Shit, Cuba has a better infant mortality rate than we do. Also, you say that Americans aren't as concerned with their health as other nations? Why do you think that inference is made? Maybe it has something to do with how much of a bitch it is to deal with insurance companies. I know if healtch care were free, I'd be at the doctor gettig my checkups far more often. I know I have skipped doctors visits for that very reason. I think it is foolish to assume that Americans actually care less about their health than other nations. It sounds like something a HMO representative would say.

So you are dying of Cancer or need a heart transplant...Tar Heel's answer? Go to Cuba.

[Yelram]

Shit, Cuba has a better infant mortality rate than we do. Also, you say that Americans aren't as concerned with their health as other nations? Why do you think that inference is made? Maybe it has something to do with how much of a bitch it is to deal with insurance companies. I know if healtch care were free, I'd be at the doctor gettig my checkups far more often. I know I have skipped doctors visits for that very reason. I think it is foolish to assume that Americans actually care less about their health than other nations. It sounds like something a HMO representative would say.


Okay, here is where I bitch slap you for being illogical. Cubas infant mortality rate is lower than ours? And I wonder how many of those dead infants werent reported? As with any socialist wetdream, you have to lie to convince people.

"
Anecdotes abound of the government cooking the books to prove the glories of the Revolution to the world, with many academics distrusting the official government figures. A demographer from the National Academies of Sciences found that the Cuban government's own data was at odds with official overall statistics for child mortality: If anything, it indicated a growing, not a falling, infant mortality rate, a suspicion supported by other statistics from the Cuban Ministry of Health which showed high rates of several childhood diseases that generally correlate with high infant mortality. Other scientists doubt the claims made over HIV, noting the many Cubans who had served in African wars, the many African students in Cuba, the rampant sex trade in Cuba, and the high rate of HIV among Cubans who escaped from the island. A secret 1987 Cuban Communist Party survey of 10,756 respondents showed 88% of the public in one province to be disappointed with their health-care system. When the Cuban suicide rate skyrocketed -- it's now twice the typical rate in Latin American countries -- the Cuban government stopped reporting suicide statistics in a way that allowed international comparisons.
To the extent that the Cuban government's health claims are credible, the results often came at a price no civilized society could countenance. Patients with AIDS were forcibly removed from society and isolated in sanitaria. Expectant mothers with AIDS were coerced into aborting their babies. Abortions were similarly used to improve infant mortality statistics in general -- Cuba has twice the abortion rate of most countries -- by terminating high-risk pregnancies. To obtain co-operation from doctors, their compensation was tied to their patients' infant mortality rate. Many Cuban mothers claim that their doctors killed their baby at childbirth -- babies who die at birth do not show up in Cuba's infant mortality data."



You say you'd go to the doctor more often if it was "free" and I assume someone is going to eat all of those costs right? I also assume the doctor is going to run some tests, and charge the government, just "to be sure". That'll lower costs right? Absolutely no individual oversight on their condition because "hey its free, i'm going to go twice a week". I suppose HMOs are the bastion of government run healthcare as well right?

[Archangel]

How the fuck did a discussion on the perceived ignorance of Americans turn into one about Cuban health care?

[Morfin]

The Cuban Health Care situation was and has always been the 800lb elephant in the GMF "room." Everybody has an opinion, but no one wanted to broach the subject. ... Until now.

[Yelram]

How the fuck did a discussion on the perceived ignorance of Americans turn into one about Cuban health care?

Because some Americans are actually ignorant enough to believe the Cuban government's "official" figures.

[Tar Heel]

Either way, I got you to actually try to argue about Cuba's health care. Of course the overal quality of care is better here, but in real countries like Canada, UK, France, etc there really is no question about life expectancy and quality of care. Doctors actually have to look at your insurance to see if your are covered to receive the best procedure to save your life. If you're not, too bad you get a 2nd rate proceedure. Think about all of the time and energy wasted by health insurance and doctors just in deternmining if you are covered for the procedure that would best suit your problem. I was talking to my father in law the other day about univeral health care. He is acareer doctor/surgeon and the director of one of the UNC Hospital Depts. The main theing he said was that the quality of research "MAY" deteriorate, but that it pales in comparison to the people that he has to give 2nd rate care to because their insurance doesn't cover the procedures that are shown to be more benificial to them. He said that only about 10-15% of his patients qualify for the high quality care that in many cases could save their lives. Also, he said that many ins companies actually give bonuses to employees and divisions that can find ways deny coverage to the most patients.

Also, Americans spends by far the most money per person on health care of any of these countries. Why are we getting so little return on so much money spent? Because of the corrupt system we have in place which benefits the very rich health insurance companies and their investors but not the people of this country.

[Rover]

Canada doesn't even have enough MRI machines, please don't talk about how awesome the Canadian health care system is. Socialized medicine is great if you want to get a flu shot and Tylenol. It sucks if you want to get an MRI on the knee you just blew out, or the disc you slipped in your back.

[Limp]

Love the new fucking title.

BJ for whoever did it!

Edit: Arch... shower up little man.

[redsox39]

Canada doesn't even have enough MRI machines, please don't talk about how awesome the Canadian health care system is. Socialized medicine is great if you want to get a flu shot and Tylenol. It sucks if you want to get an MRI on the knee you just blew out, or the disc you slipped in your back.


Shhh...quit confusing Tar Hell with Facts. Didn't you know? Poor people and illegal Mexicans are dying by the Millions in the US because no hospital will take them. All Babies that don't have rich parents are born in the back of cars and the number one cause of death is infection from broken bones. Fuck the USA.

[Archangel]

I saw a documentary on this British doctor, Stan Brock, doing pro bono work in rural Tennessee and Kentucky where people had been having tooth pain for five months, but couldn't afford to go to the dentist's. You had literally hundreds of people - no, white American citizens, not negroes and illegal immigrants - coming on shuttle buses, standing in line for six hours before dawn so they could get an eye exam or a root canal - in a fucking gym.

That bloke usually plies his trade in the Amazon jungle.

Pretty much told me everything about US health care that I needed to know.

[Tar Heel]

Canada doesn't even have enough MRI machines, please don't talk about how awesome the Canadian health care system is. Socialized medicine is great if you want to get a flu shot and Tylenol. It sucks if you want to get an MRI on the knee you just blew out, or the disc you slipped in your back.

I don't thinks so dude. From everything I've read about Canada's health care today, the only negatives being talked about are from American Politicians. It's also an argument made by politicians before 2004. Since then the equipment problems and wait times per patient are far less than they were 10 years ago. I imagine the US would have transition issues, and it's not like I'm holding my breath about public health care, but it's rediculous that Americans are paying more per person for less quality of care.

We've got several Canadians here. Why not ask them what they think of their healthcare?

[Tar Heel]

I saw a documentary on this British doctor, Stan Brock, doing pro bono work in rural Tennessee where people had been having tooth pain for five months, but couldn't afford to go to the dentist's. You had literally hundreds of people - no, white American citizens, not negroes and illegal immigrants - coming on shuttle buses, standing in line for six hours before dawn so they could get an eye exam or a root canal - in a fucking gym.

That bloke usually plies his trade in the Amazon jungle.

Pretty much told me everything about US health care that I needed to know.


It's the black and white/ right and wrong viewpoint that the American 2 party system offers. If my guy backs it it must be right. It is absolutly crazy to me that the people of America don't demand more from our government and it's officials. And I'm not talking about more social projects. I'm talking about politicians that are puppets to special interests.

[redsox39]

I saw a documentary on this British doctor, Stan Brock, doing pro bono work in rural Tennessee and Kentucky where people had been having tooth pain for five months, but couldn't afford to go to the dentist's. You had literally hundreds of people - no, white American citizens, not negroes and illegal immigrants - coming on shuttle buses, standing in line for six hours before dawn so they could get an eye exam or a root canal - in a fucking gym.

That bloke usually plies his trade in the Amazon jungle.

Pretty much told me everything about US health care that I needed to know.

Because its free. People also stood in lines for hours at 4 AM to get a God Damned $5.99 breakfast at Denny's.

I guess all of our people are starving now too?

[Limp]

ARE
AMERICANS
FUCKING
STUPID
OR
NOT?!

[Limp]

Because its free. People also stood in lines for hours at 4 AM to get a God Damned $5.99 breakfast at Denny's.

I guess all of our people are starving now too?
No line here... then again I got there when it started.

[Tar Heel]

Shhh...quit confusing Tar Hell with Facts. Didn't you know? Poor people and illegal Mexicans are dying by the Millions in the US because no hospital will take them. All Babies that don't have rich parents are born in the back of cars and the number one cause of death is infection from broken bones. Fuck the USA.

I didn't see any links or facts in his posts. He made an unfounded claim about limited MRIs. But I guess you're the type of guy that forwards political e-mails without checking snopes because it must be fact. It's an e-mail!

[Morfin]

ARE
AMERICANS
FUCKING
STUPID
OR
NOT?!

Yes, but no stupider than anyone else. /thread

[redsox39]

I didn't see any links or facts in his posts. He made an unfounded claim about limited MRIs. But I guess you're the type of guy that forwards political e-mails without checking snopes because it must be fact. It's an e-mail!

So your choice would be if you had to have a heart transplant or get treated for Cancer, you would rather go to Canada?

[Archangel]

Because its free. People also stood in lines for hours at 4 AM to get a God Damned $5.99 breakfast at Denny's.

I guess all of our people are starving now too?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that you don't wait several months to have 16 of your teeth pulled because it's free. That shit fucking hurts. What an incredibly silly comparison.

One woman there had been killing the nerve ends in her gums with the white hot point of a wire hanger. Just a free-loader, I guess.

Seriously, take off your "America, fuck yeah" goggles for a bleeding second, and fucking recognise that some parts of your country are worse off in some regards than half the third fucking world. I dunno whether Americans are stupid, but looking at you, I'm fairly sure that partisan goggles make for pretty big morons.

[redsox39]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that you don't wait several months to have 16 of your teeth pulled because it's free. That shit fucking hurts. What an incredibly silly comparison.

One woman there had been killing the nerve ends in her gums with the white hot point of a wire hanger. Just a free-loader, I guess.

Seriously, take off your "America, fuck yeah" goggles for a bleeding second, and fucking recognise that some parts of your country are worse off in some regards than half the third fucking world. I dunno whether Americans are stupid, but looking at you, I'm fairly sure that partisan goggles make for pretty big morons.

Yeah, because this is a partisan topic.

And no shit some people are worse off than I am. Just as many are probably better off too. I don't see you bleeding your heart out for all the poor Arabs in Europe...

[Tar Heel]

So your choice would be if you had to have a heart transplant or get treated for Cancer, you would rather go to Canada?

Unless you're independantly wealthy and according to my father in law, who is a career surgeon, yes. You are going to get better care because the doctor will actually diagnose your problem and give the best care that your individual situation requires. Doctors in the US have to check to make sure that you are covered for the best proceedure to suit your needs 1st. He was telling me that even people with good expensive healthcare plans get denied all the time by "top rated" ins companies. Why? because patients are viewed not as people, but as a positive or negative income to the company and workers are rewarded for finding ways to deny coverage. It can even be something as simple as leaving an insignificant allergy from your childhood off of your ins application that ends up denying your coverage for a cancer operation. Unless you are paying for the health care out of pocket, you are going to get a lower quality of care because health care comanies are looking at the bottom line. Not the welfare of the patients.

[Archangel]

Yeah, because this is a partisan topic.

And no shit some people are worse off than I am. Just as many are probably better off too. I don't see you bleeding your heart out for all the poor Arabs in Europe...

I'm not talking about immigrant layabouts or criminals.

I'm talking about your countrymen. Who are fucking suffering. And all you do is toe the party line like a fucking communist would, because Rush Limbaugh says that health care is BAD and that there isn't a problem in the first place. This is so typical:

and I bet none of them were in line smoking or doing drugs either. If you could ask those people if they would like a hit of smack OR a fixed tooth, Smack wins everytime. Fuck them.

Yeah. Every poor person in your country with health problems is a junkie. You fucking dolt. Look up the word "denial" in a dictionary, and then check out a history book for what it did for the French aristocracy.

[Da Raider]

ARE
AMERICANS
FUCKING
STUPID
OR
NOT?!

LIMP IS THE STOOPIDEST AMERICAN EVAR!

[Limp]

4 REALZ!

[Tar Heel]

Yeah, because this is a partisan topic.

And no shit some people are worse off than I am. Just as many are probably better off too. I don't see you bleeding your heart out for all the poor Arabs in Europe...

Im an independant and this is one of my liberal leaning beliefs. I agree with you here all the time here about things, but one thing I am not is partisan.

[Da Raider]

i love how this has completely morphed into a different topic.

Let's get back to asian anal.

[Tar Heel]

Why is it that Asians have like no hair anywhere on their body, but in like 70% of asian porn dem bitches crotches be hairy as fuck.

[Da Raider]

Why is it that Asians have like no hair anywhere on their body, but in like 70% of asian porn dem bitches crotches be hairy as fuck.

all I know is...

(whispering)

they have sideways vajay-jays.

[Claydon]

You guys need to stop watching Michael Moore's shit. Sicko is currently making the rounds on cable hence people are talking about it. The whole cuba thing was a fucking joke especially since they only showed the main hospital. Having worked in health care for like 15 fucking years people I can say the following with complete certainy..... 1. Insurance companies are mother fuckers, and this goes for ALL OF THEM. 2. Government run health care is a fucking nightmare, US insurance companies set their payment schedule based on medicare, and medicare notoriously undercuts providers. I work with dozens of radiology/imaging centers and they despise medicare because they get paid $750 for a patient who needs a CT scan with IV contrast, and this fee is suppose to cover the cost of the radiologists reviewing the scan, the tech time, the RN time, the materials for the contrast. So medicare is paying out $750 for what costs the imaging center around $1200. 3. I would not say the US system is 'broken' but I feel it does need a few tweeks, I am intrigued by the german and australian systems that force insurance companies to become non profits, and for those who cannot get private insurance who can get on the government insurance for a fee. 4. If americans TRULY want the VERY best then you will have to fucking pay the very best, the stories of surgeons in Canada or NHS being limited to say 3 hip replacement per fiscal quarter are COMPLETELY true. The US has a whole cottage industry of canadians coming south for things like knee surgery, hip surgery etc because they would have to wait 1 or 2 years in Canada.

Americans are ignorant, but nor more ignorant than any other citizenary. However, the concept that we are the best, we are the pinnacle of all that is great is really just sad. I would agree that we are the most powerful economically, technologically, and potentially culturally (we seem to have quite a radioactive culture) but we are not the most stupid in the world.

[Tar Heel]

I'd be open to considering Ins companies forced to be nonprofit.

[Archangel]

I wasn't talking about Michael Moore. And I doubt that German public TV has the budget to bring out a thousand people to stand in line for hours for propaganda purposes.

[redsox39]

I'm not talking about immigrant layabouts or criminals.
I'm talking about your countrymenwhite people. Who are fucking suffering.



Because no one can get a break here. Its all bullshit, you watch one documentary which I am SURE was trying to show the US in a good light and now you are a fucking expert on US Healthcare. Typical Liberal.

I guess if Tenneesee is the example for Americans, let's go check out some Serbians or Latvians or Polish for an EU example.

I would also assume that you have no fucking clue what it is like to be poor either. Guess what? If my fucking tooth hurt for months, I would probably save up some cash during that time. It sucks, and you have to make sacrifices, like pawning your TV and Guitar. Maybe not buying smokes. Once again, Arch, the Champion of poor people EVERYWHERE!*



*Only if you are literate, college educated, white, and are at least a 3rd generation countryman who isn't muslim.

[Claydon]

I wasn't talking about Michael Moore. And I doubt that German public TV has the budget to bring out a thousand people to stand in line for hours for propaganda purposes.


We do have public hosptials in this country. County USC is a 1000 bed facility in down town los angeles. They love to dump patients with gowns still on in the streets around skid row, or forget about patients in the hall ways etc etc etc. So the ideal of a socialised system is just not so great in my opinion. Having my healthcare dictated by insurance bean counters is no less shitty than a government bean counter at the OMB deciding my healthcare. As I said I like the idea of what Germany and Australia do, a hybrid of socialized care and private insurance companies. What I do not want is the NHS or the French system, where France has been selling 50 year bonds for the last decade and has a national debt at what.... 90% GDP if not higher?

[Archangel]

Does redsox go calling everybody who disagrees with him a "liberal" (the Rush school of arguing), or does he actually check their stances first?

Seriously, he's like the white pus to tater's black crap.

[Da Raider]

I'd be open to considering Ins companies forced to be nonprofit.

no way. But they need to start putting their "customer's" needs higher up the chain. The bottom line cannot continue to just be the bottom line.

[Rover]

If insurance companies are forced to be nonprofit, then there is no point to starting an insurance company.

Canada currenty has about 200 MRI scanners and 400 CT scanners. The US has over 10000. The MRI wait time in Ontario is almost 2 months, their goal (for years) has been to get the wait time under a month. The US doesn't even collect data on MRI wait times. Not to mention they don't have the medical technicians around to operate the increase in machines.

Based on population differences Canada is about 800 MRI scanners behind what they would need to have for the same per capita. They've almost increased their number by 33% over the last 5 years, which is more a reflection on where Canadian health care was than how awesome it currently is.

The biggest problem with health care is the Medicare and Medicaid that pay whatever the hospital says and/or comes up with their own costs that aren't based on anything. Because the government has huge pockets and doesn't care what they pay, the insurance costs get jacked out of control.

[Limp]

MAKE A FUCKING HEALTHCARE THREAD FAGGOTS!

[redsox39]

The US has a whole cottage industry of canadians coming south for things like knee surgery, hip surgery etc.


FTW

[Claydon]

no way. But they need to start putting their "customer's" needs higher up the chain. The bottom line cannot continue to just be the bottom line.


Yah, and the only way to do that is get them out of the profit making business. Look, you know me, and you know that I am a conservative guy who is all about the dollars. But when it comes to medical care, this shit is EXPENSIVE and you sometimes need to try procedures, therapies or tests that are not mainstream or widely accepted. Insurance companies fuck people over all the time with the "experimental" clause. I went to arbritration last year because blue cross did not want to pay for the CT ordered by the ER physician. Or when I has a fucking scope put up my urethrea years ago they didnt want to pay for the anesthesia. The more the reviewers deny the larger their year end bonus is. I do have problems with this, and they need to dealt with. Perhaps a nation wide standard should be set instead of the hodge podge state by state system we currently have.

[Archangel]

Because no one can get a break here. Its all bullshit, you watch one documentary which I am SURE was trying to show the US in a good light

It was perfectly neutral, actually.

and now you are a fucking expert on US Healthcare.

No, I never said that. I never said "it's like that everywhere", you illiterate bastard. But I don't have to be an expert on WWII to look at pics of Auschwitz and say, "man, that's some sick shit". I have pointed out that something like that EXISTS. You keep making up excuses to make it go away, because it doesn't fit in with your partisan worldview.

Typical Liberal.

Yeah, I think David Hume and John Stuart Mill were pretty smart people.

Oh, was that supposed to be an insult? Holy shit, if that is the extent of your argumentational skills, dude, kill yourself.

I guess if Tenneesee is the example for Americans, let's go check out some Serbians or Latvians or Polish for an EU example.

The fuck do I have to do with them? Are they my countrymen? Do they share my culture, my language, my history? Seriously, man, I have not seen you make ONE applicable comparison in weeks. You're not just grasping at straws, you're doing so blindly and with amputated hands.

I would also assume that you have no fucking clue what it is like to be poor either. Guess what? If my fucking tooth hurt for months, I would probably save up some cash during that time. It sucks, and you have to make sacrifices, like pawning your TV and Guitar. Maybe not buying smokes.

Because - get this - it is totally inconceivable that some of your countrymen are so fucking poor that they do not own a TV or a guitar to pawn.

And for the record, I have lived in serious fucking poverty for the first seven years of my life.

Once again, Arch, the Champion of poor people EVERYWHERE!*

*Only if you are literate, college educated, white, and are at least a 3rd generation countryman who isn't muslim.

No, I just don't make up lies to deny that there are countrymen of mine who suffer, and that they are more important than racing stripes on my Camaro.

[redsox39]

Does redsox go calling everybody who disagrees with you a "liberal"


And all you do is toe the party line like a fucking communist would, because Rush Limbaugh says...


I'm fairly sure that partisan goggles make for pretty big morons.

Sorry that I brought up political Partisanship first in here Arch. My Fault. All Hail the All knowing Arch!! I apologize for labeling him a liberal, even though when discussing US politics, he toes the line harder than Sink.

And I doubt that German public TV has the budget to bring out a thousand people to stand in line for hours for propaganda purposes.

But Filming a doctor in the US was well within their budget. They would never have enough time/money to edit it! What was I thinking?!?!

[Archangel]

Yes, redsox. There is no poverty in America, and everybody who points it out is a lying commie.

You're such a fucking joke, you make tater look like Niall Ferguson.

[Archangel]

All Hail the All knowing Chinky Nazi!!

Do I have to point out the irony in using a racial slur while calling someone a nazi, or will you do the universe the favour of actually venting that vacuum you call a head with a .45?

[redsox39]

Yes, redsox. There is no poverty in America, and everybody who points it out is a lying commie.

You're such a fucking joke, you make tater look like Niall Ferguson.

Who said once there was no poverty?!?!

Let me apologize to all non-Americans by admiting...there are poor people in our borders.

[redsox39]

The fuck do I have to do with them? Are they my countrymen? Do they share my culture, my language, my history? Seriously, man, I have not seen you make ONE applicable comparison in weeks. You're not just grasping at straws, you're doing so blindly and with amputated hands. You mean their is still National Identity over there?



Because - get this - it is totally inconceivable that some of your countrymen are so fucking poor that they do not own a TV or a guitar to pawn. Over 99% of households/Living quarters in the United States have TV. Almost 60% of households have 3 or more.
http://www.csun.edu/science/health/docs/tv&health.html
So, if we are talking about that less than 1% of people that are so poor they have no belongings, there is probably another problem other than being poor.


[/quote]

[Rover]

It's a sad state of affairs when someone 4000 miles away knows more about poverty in America than someone who lives here. There are pockets of poverty in this country that are horrible and disgusting and borderline 3rd world. You can argue the causes, but not that it exists.

Redsox39 needs to take a trip through Appalachia and the deep south sometimes. I suggest Eastern Kentucky and Tennessee and rural Mississippi.

[Archangel]

Yeah, pawning a 5-year old TV will pay for about 5 minutes of a dentist's time...

[redsox39]

Do I have to point out the irony in using a racial slur while calling someone a nazi, or will you do the universe the favour of actually venting that vacuum you call a head with a .45?


That was kind of the point actually, just done in poor taste. And for the record, I am sorry. I got a little riled up there for a internet Forum.

[redsox39]

It's a sad state of affairs when someone 4000 miles away knows more about poverty in America than someone who lives here. There are pockets of poverty in this country that are horrible and disgusting and borderline 3rd world. You can argue the causes, but not that it exists.

Redsox39 needs to take a trip through Appalachia and the deep south sometimes. I suggest Eastern Kentucky and Tennessee and rural Mississippi.

When the Fuck did I say there was no poverty? Hell, I didn't even say we had less poverty than someone else. In fact, it is quite obvious that you must have learned to read at a public school in one of these poverty stricken areas.

[Morfin]

Reading these last 20 or so posts, I visualized a pair of cats playing with a mouse before killing it, only the mouse doesn't yet realize he is Dead Mouse Walking.

[Trident]

If Americans could put Bush in power for eight years then, yes.... you're all fucking retards.

/thread /euro-rant /flame starter

But, on a more serious point: why should most Americans care? Well, maybe they shouldn't care about what happens in the rest of the world. 9/11 was probably the first time that cause and effect hit home, but even now I doubt that a good number of Americans could point to Iraq on a map, or Afghanistan, or Britain. But if you are happy to live your life within the US mainland, a country that has absorbed so much international culture and made it their own maybe that's not necessary. I disagree entirely that the US is the most cultured, I would agree that in terms of large-scale scientific achievements the US has led the way, but lets not forget there was substantial German/British influence in the Manhatten project, that it was Werner Von Braun that designed the rockets that put Americans in to space, that it was Tim Berner's Lee that designed the early protocols for the internet. The difference was the US had the money to make these things happen. The brain drain of talent to the US has been a long and substantial process.

I could not care less if your standard American could point out Europe on a map if the US was not trying to play world police; I wish all Americans had a good understanding of world politics rather than simply sipping the Kool Aid delivered by the person who shouts the loudest. Perhaps then you'd select your politicians more carefully and the US would not have been blighted by the problems that culminated in 9/11 and the subsequent actions.

[Da Raider]

If Americans could put Bush in power for eight years then, yes.... you're all fucking retards.

/thread /euro-rant /flame starter

But, on a more serious point: why should most Americans care? Well, maybe they shouldn't care about what happens in the rest of the world. 9/11 was probably the first time that cause and effect hit home, but even now I doubt that a good number of Americans could point to Iraq on a map, or Afghanistan, or Britain. But if you are happy to live your life within the US mainland, a country that has absorbed so much international culture and made it their own maybe that's not necessary. I disagree entirely that the US is the most cultured, I would agree that in terms of large-scale scientific achievements the US has led the way, but lets not forget there was substantial German/British influence in the Manhatten project, that it was Werner Von Braun that designed the rockets that put Americans in to space, that it was Tim Berner's Lee that designed the early protocols for the internet. The difference was the US had the money to make these things happen. The brain drain of talent to the US has been a long and substantial process.

I could not care less if your standard American could point out Europe on a map if the US was not trying to play world police; I wish all Americans had a good understanding of world politics rather than simply sipping the Kool Aid delivered by the person who shouts the loudest. Perhaps then you'd select your politicians more carefully and the US would not have been blighted by the problems that culminated in 9/11 and the subsequent actions.

biggus faggus has spoken.

[Trident]

Indeed, and my word is law.

[Claydon]

we are expected to be the world's police simply due to our massive economy and military.

[Archangel]

Oh, so it's all out of selflessness, despite yourselves...

[Trident]

we are expected to be the world's police simply due to our massive economy and military.

http://www.twinstuff.com/store/catalog/images/egg_thank_you.jpg

[Morfin]

I could not care less if your standard American could point out Europe on a map if the US was not trying to play world police;

True, some Americans couldn't do this. However, the Americans acting as the World's Police can. They're the ones who count, not some mallchick in Cali or some one-toothed Deliverance reject from West Virginia.

[Trident]

True, some Americans couldn't do this. However, the Americans acting as the World's Police can. They're the ones who count, not some mallchick in Cali or some one-toothed Deliverance reject from West Virginia.

But that's my point: I want people to know why their troops are being sent to these places, not just been fed lines about how America is at war and freedom is at stake. They are the people who elect the people who elect to send people to war, and to dabble in world politics. They need to see what their actions do.

However, there were a fair few soliders who were not too sure where the Falklands were before they set sail...

[Morfin]

You can't force people to pay attention to world events, just like you can't force people to read the classic literature works. It is difficult for teachers to compete with the attention-grabbing cotton candy-esque (that's candy floss-esque for you Canadians) distraction of cartoons, celebrity-driven shows, gossip shows, MTV, and video games. It is just as difficult for the kids to turn off those distractions in favor of the unexciting things in the world. And I find it hard to believe that the English and Europeans are more substantive. These are countries that have numerous daily tabloids which feature blood, sex, and Page 3 girls, and numerous sports dailies. I mean David Hasselhoff, a star?

But I'm not so concerned about those people. If they don't know what is going on and where the world events are occurring, then that is their problem and I don't concern myself with their uninformed opinion.

[Claydon]

Oh, so it's all out of selflessness, despite yourselves...

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

One thing is certain, if we act people shit on us, if we do not act people shit on us even more.

[Archetype]

And that's unique to the US?

It kinda is, yea. There's a reason our Satellite TV is 50% American, and 30% are carbon copies of American channels.


No way, class and quality doesn't always beat out appealing to the masses?! Better tell that to all those grand master painters who were so successful in their own times... Oh wait.
Yes, in fact, most were. Van Gogh is an anomaly, but if you'd seen the works he created in traditional styles...he sucked.

Americans, Vox, are everything. Because of our size and diversity, you can subsititute any adjective for stupid in your thread question and the answer will still be yes. We've got it all.

Not in the same abundance. I can only think of two other things that could be replaced and not lose it's effectiveness. Neither are positive. Both were mentioned in the OP. Still, they're stereotypes, and not necessarily ipso facto. I think I'd personally rather discuss National values, which just to babble about...

If you look back on the American Revolution, it along with the French Revolution set into motion a major shift in political views worldwide. Before that, liberalism was more or less just a thought. The US is one of the most, nay, the most successful cult of the individual. If you contrast the way it was achieved (peas with a knife), with Canada and our "pussy" way of doing it (our head of state is pretty much nothing more than a glorified diplomat), and I think you get a degree of understanding about the ignorance. That first major event of expressing national ideology was done by forced isolation with a major world power.

Americans are on average, yes, stupid by most metrics. Our public education system sucks and our literacy/mathematics/etc rates are all laughably pathetic for a 1st world industrialized nation as rich as ours. But at the same time the world's top 10 (15?) universities are all in the US."

Look that up. Cambridge should be at least in the top 5, if not fighting for the #1 spot.

Fantastic work in all sorts of fields is done in the United States. We have our stupid people, as all nations do, but that doesn't mean you can say "Oh, you're American? So you're stupid.

If I met an Ethopian, I don't think I'd say, "Oh, so you're a ******." But maybe that's because I'm Canadian.


Individually, we know what we need to know to do what we need to do to take care of ourselves. Should you ask any more of your people than that?


Yes. God yes.


How many countries would trade what they have for a nice helping of US stupidity?

Not a clue. I don't think there's as many as you do.

And I would love to see us return to the positive aspects of isolationism, where we don't interfere in anyone else's business, where trade was cash n' carry. I can think of nothing more beautiful than Iran or Albania or Sudan becoming irrelevant to us. The rest of the world (except the Brits and Canadians-- we love you guys) would cheer if we left the world stage-- at least for a couple of years.

Politically, maybe, economically, fuck no. And the politics go along with the economics.

I read both sides, and then once I form my opinion, I come on here and argue moonbat liberals,
I lul'd.

Canada doesn't even have enough MRI machines, please don't talk about how awesome the Canadian health care system is. Socialized medicine is great if you want to get a flu shot and Tylenol. It sucks if you want to get an MRI on the knee you just blew out, or the disc you slipped in your back.

Canada doesn't have socialized healthcare.

I don't thinks so dude. From everything I've read about Canada's health care today, the only negatives being talked about are from American Politician. It's also an argument made by politicians before 2004. Since then the equipment problems and wait times per patient are far less than they were 10 years ago. I imagine the US would have transition issues, and it's not like I'm holding my breath about public health care, but it's rediculous that Americans are paying more per person for less quality of care.

We've got several Canadians here. Why not ask them what they think of their healthcare?

The waiting times is still the biggest problem, but it does depend on where you are. There's been talk of a guaranteed cap on how long you have to wait, but I don't know how certain that will be. It's been getting better, but there's a reason for specualtion of an increase in private health care. We need it.

If insurance companies are forced to be nonprofit, then there is no point to starting an insurance company.

Canada currenty has about 200 MRI scanners and 400 CT scanners. The US has over 10000. The MRI wait time in Ontario is almost 2 months, their goal (for years) has been to get the wait time under a month.

Saskatchewan is worse, I think it's something like a 2 year wait. They have 3 (also, Saskatchewan sucks, so what do you expect).

So your choice would be if you had to have a heart transplant or get treated for Cancer, you would rather go to Canada?

Depends on the where. For radiation, in Manitoba and BC you get treatment within a week. Newfoundland and Nova Scotia you can get it within they day. Ontario's the worst, you can get it in under a week, but you can also wait 3 months. Saskatchewan is the next worse, where you have to wait 3 weeks, but less than 4. Everywhere else is in between. The highs are a bit lower for surgery, but the lows are a bit higher, though at a week, that's not terrible.

Heart transplant is directly related to organ availability, which varies wildly of course, but far as I know for heart surgery is a bit worse than cancer treatment in general, for emergencies you'll get it within the day, or the next day, but if it's not an immediate threat, you'll generally wait a bit longer for treatment, depending on the where.

[Archetype]

You can't force people to pay attention to world events, just like you can't force people to read the classic literature works. It is difficult for teachers to compete with the attention-grabbing cotton candy-esque (that's candy floss-esque for you Canadians) distraction of cartoons, celebrity-driven shows, gossip shows, MTV, and video games. It is just as difficult for the kids to turn off those distractions in favor of the unexciting things in the world. And I find it hard to believe that the English and Europeans are more substantive. These are countries that have numerous daily tabloids which feature blood, sex, and Page 3 girls, and numerous sports dailies. I mean David Hasselhoff, a star?

But I'm not so concerned about those people. If they don't know what is going on and where the world events are occurring, then that is their problem and I don't concern myself with their uninformed opinion.
What the fuck is candy floss?

[Morfin]

It's what my Canadian wife calls cotton candy. But then, she's even older than I am, so maybe it's a term from a bygone day.

[freegood]

Reminds me of that joke of why tampons have strings attached to them.

[Claydon]

It's what my Canadian wife calls cotton candy. But then, she's even older than I am, so maybe it's a term from a bygone day.

good god that is old!

[Morfin]

That's not saying much. To a pedophile, 12 is old. Right?

[Archangel]

To a paedophile, you're practically Abraham.



What was that old geezer like, anyway? You must have met him at some point...

[Morfin]

Yeah, well, 19 years from now, when you're 48, we'll see who's laughing then. Well, I won't -- I'll be dead. But my heirs, oh, yeah, they'll be laughing at you.

[Stax]

"Look that up. Cambridge should be at least in the top 5, if not fighting for the #1 spot."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_100_Global_Universities

Right you are, my bad. Cambridge at 6, Oxford at 8. Rounding out the top 20 Tokyo U at 16, Imperial College London at 17, and U Toronto at 18. But 15/20 ain't bad.

[Archangel]

The ÉNS at 79?

The French will not be pleased.

[Pax Britannia]

The French havent been pleased since 1812.

[Trident]

1805, fellatio.

[Trident]

Woo, mine is in there at 97.

[Archetype]

"Look that up. Cambridge should be at least in the top 5, if not fighting for the #1 spot."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_100_Global_Universities

Right you are, my bad. Cambridge at 6, Oxford at 8. Rounding out the top 20 Tokyo U at 16, Imperial College London at 17, and U Toronto at 18. But 15/20 ain't bad.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. University of Toronto is higher than McGill?? WTF and so is U BC. I call bullshit.

[Trident]

This list on wikipedia does use interesting criteria.

[WET HOT MESS]

I want to read this thread, but the title makes me think I'll end up wanting to rip redsox's anus apart.

[Pax Britannia]

I want to read this thread, but the title makes me think I'll end up wanting to rip redsox's anus apart.

Just read mine and Stax's posts. Everything else is filler.

[WET HOT MESS]

Then what am I to do with this rotating saw blade?

[Pax Britannia]

Then what am I to do with this rotating saw blade?

It's time will come my sweetness. It's time will come....

[Archangel]

Just read mine and Stax's posts. Everything else is filler.

Your mother is filler.

[Pax Britannia]

Your mother is filler.

I filled your mother. And it was glorious.

[WET HOT MESS]

Until she shot it back in your mouth.

[Trident]

I am so turned on right now.

[rafaelapolinari]

ROFL. There were also some debates on going on this site Riled Up! (http://riledup.com/) if Americans were really stupid. Seems like a hot topic these days.

Rafael

[STDSkillz]

Hey, thanks Rafael.

[mongo]

i wonder where he's from?