View Full Version : MLB: Ken Griffey's all-time CF rank?
With Griffey's return to Seattle it's clear his career is beginning to really wind down, so it's getting time to talk all-time placement. Where does Griffey rank among CFers all-time? Griffey, and then some candidates:
Ken Griffey: .288/.373/.547 (138 OPS+), .259 ISO, 17.58 PA/HR, 184/253 SB (72.7%), 47.9 BtWins over 10742 PA
Willie Mays: .302/.384/.557 (156 OPS+), .255 ISO, 18.93 PA/HR, 338/441 SB (76.6%), 84.1 BtWins over 12493 PA
Ty Cobb: .366/.433/.512 (167 OPS+), .146 ISO, 111.73 PA/HR, 892/XXX SB (see note), 109.8 BtWins over 13072 PA
Mickey Mantle: .298/.421/.557 (172 OPS+), .259 ISO, 18.49 PA/HR, 153/191 SB (80.1%), 85.3 BtWins over 9909 PA
Tris Speaker: .345/.428/.500 (158 OPS+), .155 ISO, 102.46 PA/HR, 432/XXX SB (see note), 87.5 BtWins over 11988 PA
Joe DiMaggio: .325/.398/.579 (155 OPS+), .254 ISO, 21.25 PA/HR, 30/39 SB (76.9%), 49.4 BtWins over 7671 PA
Duke Snider: .295/.380/.540 (140 OPS+), .245 ISO, 20.24 PA/HR, 99/XX SB (see note), 40.2 BtWins over 8237 PA
And the wild card Negro Leaguer (if you count him) Oscar Charleston. Dr. Chaleeko at BBTF did a solid Major League Equivalency of his time in the Negro Leagues (see here in post 74 (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/oscar_charleston)) that looks like this:
Oscar Charleston: .315/.389/.520 (144 OPS+), .205 ISO, 375/488 SB (76.8%) over 11866 PA
The "note" I mentioned is that for parts of Cobb's, Speaker's, and Snider's career (only a couple years for Snider) the league did not track CS data so their success rates are uncertain. The years we have CS for Cobb (1914-16, 1920-28) he went 326/504 (only 64.7% success). Perhaps he was more successful in his youthful years, but that's still a pretty low success rate for someone who went that often. Speaker went 164/293 (56.0%) in his years (also 14-16, 20-28). And Snider... I'm not even going to bother.
I would personally rank them roughly as such:
1. Mays/Cobb
2. Cobb/Mays
3. Mantle
4. Speaker
5. Charleston
6. DiMaggio
7. Griffey
8. Snider
9. ???
10. ???
How would you? (post a list/reasoning if you can)
ShitBreak
02-19-2009, 10:14 AM
Jim Edmonds is #1, NOMG!
Quantum Leap
02-19-2009, 10:25 AM
Ken Griffey Jr. has the sweetest swing in the history of baseball. I don't know where he ranks as a centerfielder, but I know that as a fact.
Titus_Pullo
02-19-2009, 10:43 AM
But was he a juicer?
Quantum Leap
02-19-2009, 11:03 AM
Who cares?
yQ4e5Slyrhw
Fucking beautiful.
It's amazing how much that city loves him, even after turning down an eight year, $138 million to take a paycut and play on a shitty team because he didn't like the new park.
NOTKyle
02-19-2009, 12:22 PM
BUT IT WAS HIS HOME TOWNNNN
mongo
02-19-2009, 12:27 PM
Seattle has a mandingo boner for the kid.
No agreement yet, this is interesting. Anyone have some form of a list?
the creeps
02-19-2009, 06:37 PM
7th or lower.
Genius
02-19-2009, 07:01 PM
Aside from 1990, Griffey signing with Cincy is the pinnacle of my baseball life. So I'm biased. I'll give Mays, Cobb, and Mantle, and barely give the nod to Joe D., and put him fifth.
Aside from 1990, Griffey signing with Cincy is the pinnacle of my baseball life. So I'm biased. I'll give Mays, Cobb, and Mantle, and barely give the nod to Joe D., and put him fifth.
Better than Speaker? For that matter Joe D > Speaker?
The GWD
02-19-2009, 07:08 PM
When I was a young lad I had Griffey gear all over my room. Do you guys remember Eminem's music video for his song "Stan"? When his obsessed fan had thousands of posters and articles and replaced a picture of his girlfriend hugging him with Eminem? Yeah, that was pretty much me with Junior.
As completely biased and in love as I am, I will give the nod to Mays and Mantle because when I hear "quintessential Centerfielder", I think of them. I'd like to say Cobb too, but I won't. Nobody could stand the son of a bitch when he was alive so I told him to stick it! (sorry)
Yeah. I'll put Junior at 3. Final answer.
Genius
02-19-2009, 07:10 PM
Better than Speaker? For that matter Joe D > Speaker?
I love statistical analysis. But I'm also of the school that doesn't think you can accurately judge anyone who died 20 years before you were born, at the age of 70. Cobb I know, because he's an icon. Same with Dimaggio. But I don't know Tris Speaker from Trish Stratus. He could easily be the best, and maybe I could tell you if I spent a few hours playing with the stats. But I felt like kneejerking.
I love statistical analysis. But I'm also of the school that doesn't think you can accurately judge anyone who died 20 years before you were born, at the age of 70. Cobb I know, because he's an icon. Same with Dimaggio. But I don't know Tris Speaker from Trish Stratus. He could easily be the best, and maybe I could tell you if I spent a few hours playing with the stats. But I felt like kneejerking.
Tris Speaker is Ty Cobb with a touch more power, a far better glove, lower batting average/OBP, and less SB (though we're completely in the dark about how successful they really were). Speaker also adapted to the liveball far more than Cobb, as he slugged higher than he ever had before and knocked out HRs more often before he aged out of the game.
BeeRand
02-21-2009, 08:17 AM
I went out on a limb and said Griffey is #1. But I didn't vote the way I probably should have, which is to say that I placed my vote as if I were judging them all at their best. And even though Griffey's career took a nose dive as a Red, his first ten years were remarkable. I noticed his offensive stats posted alongside some of the other greats at the beginning of the poll, but lets not forget that he was perhaps the greatest defensive center fielder of all-time as well. All web gems too.
I went out on a limb and said Griffey is #1. But I didn't vote the way I probably should have, which is to say that I placed my vote as if I were judging them all at their best. And even though Griffey's career took a nose dive as a Red, his first ten years were remarkable. I noticed his offensive stats posted alongside some of the other greats at the beginning of the poll, but lets not forget that he was perhaps the greatest defensive center fielder of all-time as well. All web gems too.
Mays was better, Cobb was better, Speaker was better. Making showy plays doesn't = All-time great. See Derek Jeter.
smith42687
02-21-2009, 01:14 PM
If the desire to make 'all-time' lists didn't exist, I don't think baseball would be as popular as it and we wouldn't hear about steroids constantly because nobody would care (other than the 'save the children' crowd).
Two points:
1. Cobb retired before Griffey Jr's grandfather was born. They are not comparable, no matter how hard your numbers try.
2. Steroids fall under vice law. If kids want to juice and try to be A-Rod, go for it. At least they have a shot to become more than that creepy little league dad who always is the coach and pushes his own kid too hard because he's trying to live out his lost dream.
Sorry, this is the pent up anger against having to hear about how 'drugs (steroids) are bad, mkay?' constantly.
1. Cobb retired before Griffey Jr's grandfather was born. They are not comparable, no matter how hard your numbers try.
You are wrong. A single is a single, a double a double, etc, etc. You evaluate within an era and compare those era-independent values.
2. Steroids fall under vice law. If kids want to juice and try to be A-Rod, go for it. At least they have a shot to become more than that creepy little league dad who always is the coach and pushes his own kid too hard because he's trying to live out his lost dream.
It's a pretty dangerous standard to say kids have to take harmful drugs to play a sport.
Bungle
02-28-2009, 09:48 PM
There's something inherently cool about a guy finishing were he started. I hope Gonzo finishes in Arizona, and it's horrible to see the Big Unit in a SF uniform.
I honestly don't know what team to associate RJ with. I know he's a Mariner, but I always think of the DBacks when I hear his name.
Bungle
03-01-2009, 10:33 AM
The current owners are ignoring the legacy of the Dbacks. Everyone assumes he'll go in the HoF in a Dbacks uniform. I guess after he retires they have five years to unburn the bridge.
Lone Wolf
03-02-2009, 03:22 PM
I wouldn't argue with him being in the top 5
TheImpossibleMan
04-05-2009, 02:46 AM
Sixth. Gotta put Mays, Cobb, Mantle, DiMaggio, Speaker above him, in that order. Don't know how to rank Charleston--can we really say with authority how Negro League numbers translate? All this observational data can be so meaningless and anecdotal...
fuzzystuff
04-07-2009, 11:40 AM
Jr. has the best swing ever, being a Reds fan i was stoked when he came and even more when he left(to a much better team).
Sixth. Gotta put Mays, Cobb, Mantle, DiMaggio, Speaker above him, in that order. Don't know how to rank Charleston--can we really say with authority how Negro League numbers translate? All this observational data can be so meaningless and anecdotal...
Fair 'nuff.
Jr. has the best swing ever, being a Reds fan i was stoked when he came and even more when he left(to a much better team).
Ok?