KG v TD

[Archangel]

Both are, without doubt, two of the greatest power forwards to ever play the game - different though their styles of play may be. Both are MVPs, both are great on both sides of the court, both are players anybody would love building a team around.

KG is one of the most complete players I know. Brings an amazing intensity every night, is one of the maybe four players in recent history who could play/defend all five positions, and led the Wolves in pretty much every statistical category. With his athleticism, handling, and range, he was one of the first prototypes of the mobile big men we see today.


Duncan? Well, he's a machine. He pretty much makes fantasy basketball moot; he literally guarantees you 20 and 10 every night. In his entire career, he has never been worse than 18.6 (this year) and 10.6 ('05-'06), and those were in the latter years, when the Spurs limited his minutes in the regular season - with him always delivering in the playoffs. He's also one of the league's best post defenders, and a proven leader.


Most importantly, they both play. Duncan hasn't had a season in which he played less than 66 games (apart from the lockout season, in which he played all 50), and Garnett has played at least 70 games in all of his seasons except two.

Timmy obviously has the edge in championships and accolades, but then, he played with Robinson, Ginobili, Horry, and Parker, while Garnett's best teammates in Minnesota were Sprewell, Cassell, and Ricky Davis; once he was paired with all-star teammates, he certainly didn't take long to start winning for real.


So, let's say it's '97, and KG had gone to college for two years: Knowing what you know now, whom would you pick?

[TheImpossibleMan]

Tim Duncan. No hesitation.

[Satan]

Karl Malone

[mongo]

shawn kemp.

[STDSkillz]

Depends on my team. If I have Kobe Bryant, then I go with KG. I think the two would compliment each other better than if Duncan was involved. If I have Chris Paul, I'd go with Tim Duncan. I think Duncan fits better with solid PGs (Avery, Parker, etc.) while Garnett works better with fanatic scorers (Pierce).

If forced to pick, probably Duncan. I don't know, though. Tough question--even though I hate their teams, I respect both players immensely.

[Swurgen]

Duncan is realistically a center who was protected by playing PF. He has the go-to offensive moves of a center. KG is more of a basketball player who plays in the flow of the game rather than dictating the flow of the game which is why he's not a pure scorer but probably a better all around teammate in many ways. If I had chuckers to extend the defense with 3 ptrs and give him room, TD would be the man. If I had a team full of well-rounded guys then KG could be the glue to pull them all together. If I had an athletic team and was looking to put together an athletic team with crazy defense then KG could be my 4 and occasional 5 and run the floor like a guard. Very rare commodity.

[Archangel]

This isn't going the way I had planned.

[misterfatt]

not taking anything away from his accomplishments, but it's no secret that duncan is a five who plays the four-spot. he'll definitely go down as one as the better big men to ever play, but a power forward he is not.

on the other hand, KG can simply play every position on the court. he proved that in minnesota, basically playing point-forward-center for them season-in and season-out. his combination of size, range and defensive prowess is just ridiculous.

i hate to speak in hypotheticals, but it's not hard to imagine garnett taking each and every MVP duncan earned, had he not been backed by the likes of terrell brandon, trenton hassell, joe smith, and michael olowokandi.

[Phil Theehor]

I cast my vote keeping in tune with my status as a ridiculous homer.

That said, KG is HOF'er for whom I will forever have a Schilling-esque level of gratitude. He is everything you would want in a player, both from a tangible and intangible perspective.

But Duncan is a basketball immortal.If you're putting him into "who'd you rather" polls with other 4/5's, his opponents should be the Russells and Chamberlains.

[Archangel]

(to fatt) Exactly. As I said, the second you gave KG the kind of HoF calibre team-mates with whom Duncan has been surrounded his entire career, he took his team to the NBA's best record and a championship.

[Archangel]

I cast my vote keeping in tune with my status as a ridiculous homer.

That said, KG is HOF'er for whom I will forever have a Schilling-esque level of gratitude. He is everything you would want in a player, both from a tangible and intangible perspective.

But Duncan is a basketball immortal.If you're putting him into "who'd you rather" polls with other 4/5's, his opponents should be the Russells and Chamberlains.

Who, like Duncan and KG, only won championships when teamed up with other HoFers. KG played for shit teams almost his entire career (Russell is a huge fan of both, by the way). On defence, Timmy had DRob behind him or Bowen in front of him. On offence, he has a top ten point guard and a dynamic wing scorer, with all that rounded out by good role players and a top tier organisation. Duncan never had to take a team to the Western Finals basically by himself, like KG did. As SLAM magazine famously said, the only thing Garnett didn't do for the Wolves was fly the team plane.

Yeah, hypotheticals suck. But if KG had stayed in college for two years (can you imagine the damage he would have done there?) and the Spurs had drafted him instead, do you honestly think that they wouldn't have had the same kind of success?

[freegood]

(to fatt) Exactly. As I said, the second you gave KG the kind of HoF calibre team-mates with whom Duncan has been surrounded his entire career, he took his team to the NBA's best record and a championship.

KG is a great regular season performer...another fantasy beast, but he disappears in the clutch.

No clutch= early playoff exit.

I love Sam I am Cassel, but he aint no Ray Allen, and Spree sure as hell isn't Paul, Finals MVP, Pierce.

[Archangel]

KG is a great regular season performer...another fantasy beast, but he disappears in the clutch.

No clutch= early playoff exit.

I love Sam I am Cassel, but he aint no Ray Allen, and Spree sure as hell isn't Paul, Finals MVP, Pierce.

How does that disprove my point? I did say that his team in Minny mostly sucked... Also, nobody is disputing Duncan's clutch-ness and leadership qualities.
And it could be argued that with his all the miles on his body, KG deferred to his All Star team-mates in the Finals like Duncan did with Parker and Ginóbili in '07.

[Stax]

How does that disprove my point? I did say that his team in Minny mostly sucked... Also, nobody is disputing Duncan's clutch-ness and leadership qualities.
And it could be argued that with his all the miles on his body, KG deferred to his All Star team-mates in the Finals like Duncan did with Parker and Ginóbili in '07.

I am. There is no such thing as a clutch player, only clutch events. The only thing slightly different about basketball as opposed to baseball is the game does change SLIGHTLY late (as the ability to hit free throws becomes important), but by and large attributing performance in a choice few important games to an invisible ability rather than variance is silly.

[freegood]

Duncan has proven to be the top dog with his 3 Finals MVPs. KG's bark has been inconsistent with his bite.

There has been similarities with TMac and KG's postseason career up until the Celtics trade.

One's considered a great player and the other a perennial first round flake.

Numbers wise, it's a tough choice, but I'll grudgingly choose TD over Garnett for his intangibles.

[Phil Theehor]

Who, like Duncan and KG, only won championships when teamed up with other HoFers. KG played for shit teams almost his entire career (Russell is a huge fan of both, by the way). On defence, Timmy had DRob behind him or Bowen in front of him. On offence, he has a top ten point guard and a dynamic wing scorer, with all that rounded out by good role players and a top tier organisation. Duncan never had to take a team to the Western Finals basically by himself, like KG did. As SLAM magazine famously said, the only thing Garnett didn't do for the Wolves was fly the team plane.

Yeah, hypotheticals suck. But if KG had stayed in college for two years (can you imagine the damage he would have done there?) and the Spurs had drafted him instead, do you honestly think that they wouldn't have had the same kind of success?

As you said, hypotheticals suck. Yes, KG has all of the tools needed to replicate Duncan's success, but it needs to be noted that Duncan's success is legendary. The "would he have" question is impossible to answer.

[Archangel]

Hey, I'm not hating on Timmy. I own the man's jersey, for crying out loud. Just trying to see that KG gets a fair shake.



Also, I'm pretty sure that fessing up to owning a white #21 home is gonna cost me freegood's friendship.

I have a red #11 one too, if that helps...

[Phil Theehor]

I am. There is no such thing as a clutch player, only clutch events. The only thing slightly different about basketball as opposed to baseball is the game does change SLIGHTLY late (as the ability to hit free throws becomes important), but by and large attributing performance in a choice few important games to an invisible ability rather than variance is silly.

If Arch chooses to engage in this discussion with you, Stax, I predict a four-page argument containing multiple facepalms.

I'll check in tomorrow and see how it ends up.

[Stax]

Kevin Garnett, regular season: 20.2 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 4.3 APG, 37.6 MP
Kevin Garnett, playoffs: 21.6 PPG, 12.4 RPG, 4.4 APG, 40.9 MP

Higher points, rebound, and assisst totals in the playoffs vs. the regular season (likely a product of playing a tad over 3 minutes more, on average, in the playoffs). Hardly looks like disappearing in the clutch. 78.2% regular season FT%, 77.6% postseason (basically identical). I hate PER but 23.8 regular season, 23.2 postseason.

[Archangel]

Also, as his team's only legitimate threat, who were opponents gonna focus on late in playoff games? If you triple team Duncan, Ginóbili or Parker (or Horry, in those days) are gonna murder you. On the Wolves, you could glue your entire team onto KG late in a close game, and nobody else would do shit.

[Stax]

I voted for Duncan, BTW, just saying.

[Mustard]

I choose KG, not for statistical or talent reasons, but because Tim Duncan is milquetoast.

[Stax]

But toast and milk are both delicious!

[Desperado]

Hahaha Timmy has practically played an entire extra season from playoff games alone... you gotta remember that tony and gino where not even close to being great for their first championships, they would past the ball to Tim in the low post and just watch him do bank shots. Timmy helps players learn and he helped them through their learning curve (with pop). Who knows if they would be the players they are today without Timmy.

[Mustard]

But toast and milk are both delicious!
Naap!

[freegood]

Hey, I'm not hating on Timmy. I own the man's jersey, for crying out loud. Just trying to see that KG gets a fair shake.



Also, I'm pretty sure that fessing up to owning a white #21 home is gonna cost me freegood's friendship.


Oh shit. Does wearing it cure insomnia?

[Archangel]

Hahaha Timmy has practically played an entire extra season from playoff games alone... you gotta remember that tony and gino where not even close to being great for their first championships, they would past the ball to Tim in the low post and just watch him do bank shots. Timmy helps players learn and he helped them through their learning curve (with pop). Who knows if they would be the players they are today without Timmy.

On his first championship, Timmy had this guy (on his second, too, but Admiral was in retirement mode by then).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2760996851_1fe1510cb9.jpg

Apparently, he was pretty good. He got voted into some hall, last I heard.


EDIT: Holy shit, look at DRob's arms.

[Desperado]

I was thinking more about 03'(DRobinson was playing on one leg), but ya Gino and Parker were hardly contributing(99 or 03), back then they Sean and Avery were picking up the slack. It took a couple of years for manu and tony to become the players they have turned into. Timmy/Pops leadership had a great deal to do with that. Keeping players grounded and not letting anyone get that "star" mentality.

[Jericho]

EDIT: Holy shit, look at DRob's arms.
O rly

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7DCKTdLw52g/SX9hodYo-NI/AAAAAAAAA6Q/LlTzX4VUF58/s400/Karl+Malone.jpg

[Mustard]

Karl Malone wasn't shit w/o this guy

http://i41.tinypic.com/ndtwdj.jpg

[Archangel]

I was thinking more about 03'(DRobinson was playing on one leg), but ya Gino and Parker were hardly contributing(99 or 03), back then they Sean and Avery were picking up the slack. It took a couple of years for manu and tony to become the players they have turned into. Timmy/Pops leadership had a great deal to do with that. Keeping players grounded and not letting anyone get that "star" mentality.

So was KG supposed to turn Marko Jaric into a HoFer, or what?

[freegood]

He did something to trick Adriana Lima into marrying that fool.

[Jericho]

Karl Malone wasn't shit w/o this guy

http://i41.tinypic.com/ndtwdj.jpg
Horny was a fuckin baller

[Archangel]

O rly

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7DCKTdLw52g/SX9hodYo-NI/AAAAAAAAA6Q/LlTzX4VUF58/s400/Karl+Malone.jpg

Jesus, what a self-absorbed homo. He should have trained his hand muscles instead, maybe MJ wouldn't have stolen that ball so easily then.

[Mustard]

Horny was a fuckin baller
He's like Bob Saget, but with talent.

[Desperado]

So was KG supposed to turn Marko Jaric into a HoFer, or what?

Hell man KG never won any titles pre-celts so I cant really say I know much about the rosters he had to work with. I look at the situation and wonder if parker and manu become the players they are today with KG as a teammate.

[Stax]

Jesus, what a self-absorbed homo. He should have trained his hand muscles instead, maybe MJ wouldn't have stolen that ball so easily then.

Karl Malone says STFU.

[Genius]

THE ROSES ARE OUT TIMMY, NOT THE GNOMES!!!

[Desperado]

THE ROSES ARE OUT TIMMY, NOT THE GNOMES!!!

Hahaha havent heard that in years...

[Archangel]

Karl Malone says STFU.

I answer him with these shoes.

http://images.nicekicks.com/images/315299-162-600.jpg

You know, the gesture that came a few seconds after this.

http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/9/9f/Jordan_last_shot_1999.jpg

Which itself came a few seconds after he took that ball from Mailman like candy from a 270 pound baby.

[Jericho]

You would answer someone with shoes, homo

[Mustard]

Says the guy with a wrestler in his av...

[Stax]

You would answer someone with shoes, homo

+1

[Archangel]

How many kicks bearing his name and celebrating his championships does Malone have again?


Oh, and for the Duke and Georgetown fans, there are these.

http://images.nicekicks.com/images/316269-142-600.jpg

[Archangel]

Says the guy with a wrestler in his av...

+1

[Jericho]

How many kicks bearing his name and celebrating his championships does Malone have again?


Oh, and for the Duke and Georgetown fans, there are these.

http://images.nicekicks.com/images/316269-142-600.jpg
How many championships have the Nuggets even sniffed? Shut the fuck up, Arch.

[Jericho]

Says the guy with a wrestler in his av...
I'm paying tribute to my favorite dead wrestlers. Show the Bammer some respect.

[Archangel]

How many championships have the Nuggets even sniffed? Shut the fuck up, Arch.

1976 ABA Finals, biatch!

And we obviously had to lose to the future superstar of my #2 favourite team. :(

[Jericho]

ABA.....that's cute

[Mustard]

I'm paying tribute to my favorite dead wrestlers. Show the Bammer some respect.
Nope, I won't do it.

[Archangel]

ABA.....that's cute

So I can't make fun of the Jazz because my favourite team has the same number of championships that the Jazz have?

[Mustard]

Making fun of the Jazz is too easy.

It's like making fun of a kid with downs.

[Jericho]

So I can't make fun of the Jazz because my favourite team has the same number of championships that the Jazz have?
You can do whatever you want. I can't retort without you getting butthurt?

[The Dude]

duncan has been surrounded by other good players since his career started. The fact that it's even a question means the answer is kg. kg is so much more versatile than duncan. Also, KG is the type of player who is the "face of a franchise", i just don't see the same in tim, not that he isn't the best player on the team.

[Archangel]

You can do whatever you want. I can't retort without you getting butthurt?

I'm not butthurt.

If a Laker fan pointed out last year's first round, THEN I would be butthurt.

[Archangel]

It's weird how our beloved assistant coach is one of the best players in Jazz history.

[Phil Theehor]

Hell man KG never won any titles pre-celts so I cant really say I know much about the rosters he had to work with. I look at the situation and wonder if parker and manu become the players they are today with KG as a teammate.

This is the crux of the problem. Basketball is such a fluid team sport, that stats (sorry, Stax) will never tell the full story for any player. Chemistry matters. Teammates are the ultimate moving part in the equation. And as Deperado mentioned, not only have the stars developed a certain way because of theire teammates (crap, imagine learning the position from The Admiral), but then the teammates develop a certain way because of the stars. Its...cyclical.

So, regarding the KG:TD question, you can't play the woulda game. Would KG have duplicated Duncan's success were he on the Spurs? Perhaps. Probably. But ultimately, we don't know that. What we do know is what Duncan did with the opportunity.

And I say all of this knowing that I would rim KG if he asked for it because I am so grateful for what he did for the Celts.

[heelsguy]

KG got to the NBA 2 years before Tim, but he also never had the benefit of working with a college coach/program and being able to learn and grow on a smaller stage. think about it: duncan had all 4 years at wake playing up against players like stackhouse and wallace et al, while they were in their learning curves. KG is more athletic than Tim, and if he had been with S.A all those years they would have at least as many titles as Tim delivered

[Menace2Sobriety]

(to fatt) Exactly. As I said, the second you gave KG the kind of HoF calibre team-mates with whom Duncan has been surrounded his entire career, he took his team to the NBA's best record and a championship.
He did? Paul Pierce is the leader of that team and the one who outduelled and outscored Lebron James in the ECF. Pierce is the one who the team looks to down the stretch and the one who took out Finals MVP.
Duncan was the best prospect to come out in years, he would have had a LBJ type impact on whatever team he landed on with the first overall pick. He would not have exited in the first round 7 years in a row, even with McHale/Smith fucking up the franchise.

[Menace2Sobriety]

OT 1: KG would have never been eligible for NCAA due to his grades
OT 2: One day I'm going to Germany and stealing Arch's sneaker collection (You're size 12 right?)
OT 3: I'm currently running an All-Time NBA Draft on a Fantasy Football Forum. In that Timmy D went 8th overall and KG went 24th. My team obviously kicks ass, with The Big O taken 6th overall, Earl the Pearl and Bob Pettit.

[Archangel]

He did? Paul Pierce is the leader of that team and the one who outduelled and outscored Lebron James in the ECF. Pierce is the one who the team looks to down the stretch and the one who took out Finals MVP.

And yet, Pierce never won shit without KG, either - he got exactly as far as Garnett did, the Conference Finals.

Also, without Garnett, the Celtics never would have been the defensive team that they are/were. Sure, he's injured now, but this work ethic that they have is largely due to KG's intensity. Look what they said about how they would suck on D if Posey left - and look, they're still among the league's best defences.

OT 1: KG would have never been eligible for NCAA due to his grades
OT 2: One day I'm going to Germany and stealing Arch's sneaker collection (You're size 12 right?)
OT 3: I'm currently running an All-Time NBA Draft on a Fantasy Football Forum. In that Timmy D went 8th overall and KG went 24th. My team obviously kicks ass, with The Big O taken 6th overall, Earl the Pearl and Bob Pettit.

Size 9 1/2, sorry. I gots small feets.

[Phil Theehor]

And yet, Pierce never won shit without KG, either - he got exactly as far as Garnett did, the Conference Finals.

Also, without Garnett, the Celtics never would have been the defensive team that they are/were. Sure, he's injured now, but this work ethic that they have is largely due to KG's intensity. Look what they said about how they would suck on D if Posey left - and look, they're still among the league's best defences.

To Arch's point, what KG affected was a complete cultural overhaul-- and that does not show up in the box score. We just don't have "force of will" statistics.

[freegood]

So, regarding the KG:TD question, you can't play the woulda game. Would KG have duplicated Duncan's success were he on the Spurs? Perhaps. Probably. But ultimately, we don't know that. What we do know is what Duncan did with the opportunity.

And I say all of this knowing that I would rim KG if he asked for it because I am so grateful for what he did for the Celts.

That's KG's bitchass fault for taking the biggest contract at the time and killing his team's salary cap.

[JT]

I am. There is no such thing as a clutch player, only clutch events. The only thing slightly different about basketball as opposed to baseball is the game does change SLIGHTLY late (as the ability to hit free throws becomes important), but by and large attributing performance in a choice few important games to an invisible ability rather than variance is silly.

Your goddamn clutch arguments are getting really old.

KG is my vote.

[JT]

That's KG's bitchass fault for taking the biggest contract at the time and killing his team's salary cap.

So you would have said no to a contract like that? Bullshit you can't blame KG just like you can't blame A-rod. Blame the stupid fucking owners

[freegood]

I wouldn't have said no, but I wouldn't have been bitter or angry about being the best player on a team that exited the 1st round year after year.

[Da Raider]

Look up consistency in the dictionary and and TD's picture is there. Look up intensity and KG's picture is there. Both are solid and spectacular in their own way but I have to vote for Tim Duncan. He's not afraid of taking the big shot at the end of games and KG was a scaredy cat, and now he's got PP and Ray Allen so he doesn't have to take game winning shots.

[BIG PIZZLE]

KG is a cunt and I'm not sure why I voted for his bitch ass.

[blakegriffin]

I bet for KG. He's the best defender than Tim Duncan. But there's a catch. DW (Dwight Howard) is also in the house of competition.

Good luck you guys!