Sports Legends

[VoxAngelikus]

A lot of us have been privy to seeing some of the current/future sports legends that litter the sports landscape. Kobe, Tiger, Jordan, Gretzky, Brodeur, A-Rod, Jimmie Johnson, Rex Grossman, just to name a few. And in 20 or 30 years, we will look back and be able to say that we saw some of the greatest athletes in the world (including some steroidically-enhanced ones).

But, which Legends did you never get to see? Which are the ones you would love to go back and watch, provided you had the opportunity?

I suppose pick one or two from each major sport, MLB, NBA, NHL, NFL, Golf, Soccer, NASCAR (ha ha!), Boxing, or if you can think of any others.

[Jericho]

Pistol Pete

[Da Raider]

Barry Sanders
Dock Ellis
Jim Brown
Wilt Chamberlain

[Stax]

Ruth
Williams
Cobb
Speaker
Wagner
Mays
Aaron
Gehrig
Hornsby
Collins
Walter Johnson
Josh Gibson

To name a few

[Stax]

Really I just wish I could watch some of those Negro League All-Star teams playing teams of ML studs in those offseason shows they'd do occasionally.

[VoxAngelikus]

I'd like to have seen Muhammed Ali or Kareem Abdul Jabbar in their prime.... I did see Mike Tyson, but Ali would have been tits terrific.

[jemeske]

Nancy Lieberman.

[mongo]

mayes
ruth
mantle
koufax
seaver
matthewson
rose
cobb
williams
jackson
dean
dimaggio


i could go on all day. however, outside of baseball, i think the only person i'd want to see is the golden bear.

[merlin13]

Roberto Clemente ( he rarely gets mentioned at all)
Dizzy Dean
Dr. J (ABA days)
UCLA coached by Wooden
Montreal Maroons ( when they were so dominate)
Russian National Team ( pre The Miracle On Ice)
Gale Sayers
Red Grange
The first Daytona Race ( on the beach)
Tony Zale
Rocky Graziano
There are so many early heavyweight fights that are legendary to list.

[fuldstændigamok]

Kopa
Fangio
Puskas
Best
Di Stefano

[Menace2Sobriety]

Don Bradman
Wisden hailed Bradman as, "the greatest phenomenon in the history of cricket, indeed in the history of all ball games".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman#cite_note-Cricinfo1-0) Statistician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistician) Charles Davis analysed the statistics for several prominent sportsmen by comparing the number of standard deviations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation) that they stand above the mean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_mean) for their sport.[224] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman#cite_note-davis-223) The top performers in his selected sports are:[225] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman#cite_note-NYT-224)
Athlete Sport Statistic Standard
deviations

Bradman Cricket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket) Batting average (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batting_average#Cricket) 4.4
Pelé (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9) Association football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football) Goals per game 3.7
Ty Cobb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ty_Cobb) Baseball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baseball) Batting average (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batting_average#Baseball) 3.6
Jack Nicklaus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Nicklaus) Golf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf) Major titles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golfers_with_most_wins_in_men%27s_major_championsh ips) 3.5
Michael Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan) Basketball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball) Points per game 3.4Oscar Robertson
Johnny Unitas

[Pox]

Kyle Korver banged my girlfriend once. I cried.

[heelsguy]

I'd like to have seen Muhammed Ali or Kareem Abdul Jabbar in their prime.... I did see Mike Tyson, but Ali would have been tits terrific.

side note: I have a video tape of lakers/celts game 6 1987 NBA finals that I watched the other day...brent musberger and tom heinsohn did the call. God there must have been 9 HOF'rs on the combined rosters. And seeing a skinny magic and bird and a still very good-jabbar was awesome.

for me, I have read that Josh Gibson hit AMAZING home runs. I would love to have seen some of them.

sandy koufax
tom seaver
jim brown
pete maravich
unitas

[smahoo]

jesse owens
joe louis
jake la motta
joe di maggio
babe ruth
sammy baugh
jim thorpe
byron nelson
ben hogan
george mikan

[Da Raider]

I've seen Vlade Divac play at Arco Arena. Jealous?

[Hanover Fist]

Just had to post a few of these photos I saw at Thatsmyboy03.com

There are literally hundreds and hundreds of old baseball photos that are extremely high quality on there. Awesome stuff to check out if you like 60's-80's baseball.

http://i40.tinypic.com/30kqem9.jpg


Can you name every face shown in this picture without looking them up? I'm actually related to one of them. It should be pretty easy with the one exception.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2hces2e.jpg

[ADD]

Clemente and Aaron (is that Stargell's head cut out of view?) in the back, Asshole Joe Morgan, Joe Torre and is that Mazeroski in the front?

[Stax]

Elroy Face? I'm just trying to think of other big Pirates beyond Stargell and Clemente (and I don't THINK that's Maz, could be wrong tho).

[ADD]

That's why I questioned it. I don't really know my Pirates aside from Clemente, Stargell and beyond (Bonds, Bonilla, Drabek, etc.). I'm just trying to think of old white Pirates and it can't be Honus Wagner.

[Hanover Fist]

Clemente and Aaron (is that Stargell's head cut out of view?) in the back, Asshole Joe Morgan, Joe Torre and is that Mazeroski in the front?

The older guy in the front in the Pirates uniform is the one I am related to. It's Danny Murtaugh. He was like my great uncle. He use to come over to my grandpas house back in the day when they had poker night during the offseason.

[hatepoppy]

sweetness.

[ADD]

The older guy in the front in the Pirates uniform is the one I am related to. It's Danny Murtaugh. He was like my great uncle. He use to come over to my grandpas house back in the day when they had poker night during the offseason.

You ever take his money? Cuz that'd be beyond awesome

[Hanover Fist]

You ever take his money? Cuz that'd be beyond awesome

Naw, he died when I was real young. I don't ever remember meeting him. They threw a big party at the house when he won the World Series in 1971, but alas I was a lad of all of 2 years old at the time.


I swear, yesterday I was on that site for like 3 hours just browsing all the pictures. If you go to the left sidebars you can get to even more photos that are team specific.
The one I decided to use as my AV was one of my favorites. It makes Seaver and Ryan look like they were 12 years old.

[ADD]

Ha ha, you're old

[Hanover Fist]

Ha ha, you're old

Or I perfected time travel.....never thought of that now did you?

[ADD]

Pfffffffffft. Had you perfected time travel you'd go back and steal the ideas for everything, thus being mega rich and not be on GMF. Good try, though, oldie

[Stax]

http://i43.tinypic.com/sdhc42.jpg

[ADD]

Gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too soon

[Hanover Fist]

I won't feel old until there aren't any pro athletes that are older than me.


C'mon Jamie Moyer, I know you have at least 5 more years in that arm.

[Hanover Fist]

In honor of Willie Mays 78th birthday I pulled up a picture of him from his last year with the Mets.
I was listening to Mike & Mike this morning and they were discussing "The greatest living baseball player". They agreed that right now Willie is the greatest living ball player, and then their discussion turned to who would take that title once Willie Mays passes.
It was a pretty interesting discussion. Some of the names discussed were Mike Schmidt, Harmon Killebrew, Brooks Robinson, Sandy Koufax, Barry Bonds* and Ricky Henderson. While agreeing or not I thought it made for a cool topic.

http://i41.tinypic.com/28jjk91.jpg

[TheImpossibleMan]

When Mays dies, it'll be Bonds*. If you don't count him, it'll be Cal Ripken Jr., Joe Morgan, or maybe even Pujols (no, seriously).

[Pox]

Greatest living position player? Cause I'd throw Maddux and Pedro in the argument

Cal Ripkin, though? Really?

[Hanover Fist]

Cal Ripken was brought up and rejected by all 3 of the guys on the show. He might have been one of the most loved but they all agreed he was nowhere near the best.
Pujols was brought up but they said he would need many more years before they would give him that title.
Joe Morgan was mentioned and I believe they stated he was only the 2nd best player on the "Big Red Machine" with Bench being #1 and Pete Rose being #3.

Like I said different people have different opinions, I just thought it was pretty interesting. After all everyone knows Brian Downing is the greatest living ballplayer.

[Stax]

In honor of Willie Mays 78th birthday I pulled up a picture of him from his last year with the Mets.
I was listening to Mike & Mike this morning and they were discussing "The greatest living baseball player". They agreed that right now Willie is the greatest living ball player, and then their discussion turned to who would take that title once Willie Mays passes.
It was a pretty interesting discussion. Some of the names discussed were Mike Schmidt, Harmon Killebrew, Brooks Robinson, Sandy Koufax, Barry Bonds* and Ricky Henderson. While agreeing or not I thought it made for a cool topic.



That was always what pissed me off about DiMaggio. I know he didn't bestow it on himself, but for a man who played on the same OF grass in the same game at times with the likes of Williams (in Yankees/Sox games) and for a season with Mantle to even be called the best player in the game, let alone alive, is just sad.

I'd say Bonds > Mays right now. Personal top 10 is something like

Ruth
Mays
Cobb
Mantle
Speaker
Bonds
Williams
Musial
Wagner
Hornsby

With Aaron and Gehrig butting up on the outside and sometimes getting in. Those living on that group are Mays, Aaron, and Bonds.

So I'd go for greatest living players...

1. Bonds
2. Mays
3. Aaron
4. Henderson
5. Schmidt

And toss Pujols in there because TIM is right. Pujols has a serious chance to pass Foxx (for 2nd) and possibly Gehrig as the greatest 1B of all time, and by the time Bonds/Mays/Aaron are all gone (or even just Mays/Aaron) he'll likely be near the end (if not done) of his career.

[Hanover Fist]

Cal Ripken was brought up and rejected by all 3 of the guys on the show. He might have been one of the most loved but they all agreed he was nowhere near the best.
Pujols was brought up but they said he would need many more years before they would give him that title.
Joe Morgan was mentioned and I believe they stated he was only the 2nd best player on the "Big Red Machine" with Bench being #1 and Pete Rose being #3.

Like I said different people have different opinions, I just thought it was pretty interesting. After all everyone knows Brian Downing is the greatest living ballplayer.

For pitchers some names were Koufax, Seaver, and Maddux.


The most intriguing name to me was Ricky Henderson. The greatest leadoff hitter of all time?

[Stax]

Joe Morgan was mentioned and I believe they stated he was only the 2nd best player on the "Big Red Machine" with Bench being #1 and Pete Rose being #3.


Bench was the greatest MLB catcher (discounting Gibson), but Morgan was the greatest modern-era 2B (Collins I can understand discounting, though I personally very much count Hornsby ahead of him). *shrug*


For pitchers some names were Koufax, Seaver, and Maddux.

Koufax is so far from the greatest living pitcher it's really pretty sad. First off you've got Clemens/Maddux/Johnson for 3 potential all-time starting rotation guys who should pretty blatently lead the greatest living pack. Toss Seaver in there and I'd say your list is pretty set.

[Stax]

Shit, Stan the Man is still alive? I feel bad now, I just thought he was dead. Ok, correct my list:

Position players:
1. Bonds
2. Mays
3. Aaron
4. Musial
5. Henderson
6. Schmidt

Pitchers:
1. Clemens
2. Maddux
3. Johnson
4. Seaver

[TheImpossibleMan]

Cal Ripken was brought up and rejected by all 3 of the guys on the show. He might have been one of the most loved but they all agreed he was nowhere near the best.
Pujols was brought up but they said he would need many more years before they would give him that title.
Joe Morgan was mentioned and I believe they stated he was only the 2nd best player on the "Big Red Machine" with Bench being #1 and Pete Rose being #3.

Like I said different people have different opinions, I just thought it was pretty interesting. After all everyone knows Brian Downing is the greatest living ballplayer.
Ripken is the best living shortstop and probably one of the twenty best players ever, including pitchers.

Joe Morgan>>>Bench

[TheImpossibleMan]

Oh, duh, it's Hank Aaron. Dammit. Too many players from too many eras to keep track of...

[Pox]

Ripken is the best living shortstop and probably one of the twenty best players ever, including pitchers.

complete bullshit.

[TheImpossibleMan]

complete bullshit.
Please, tell me which living shortstop is better than Ripken Jr. so I can tell you how wrong you are.

[Stax]

Please, tell me which living shortstop is better than Ripken Jr. so I can tell you how wrong you are.

Well, ARod, but he has to be ranked as a 3B anymore I think (to fairly credit his entire career without OVERvaluing his 3B years by bunching them w/ SS years).

Otherwise BBTF agrees, (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/election_results_wagnerlloyd_ripken_vaughan_davis_ dahlen_and_yount_get_at_l/) but I'd say he's rather clearly not top 20 position players:

[Hanover Fist]

While not maybe one of the very top guys, Rod Carew has to get some mention.
18x All Star, 1967 ROY, 1977 MVP, and 7 batting titles, career .328 BA.

[Pox]

I was talking more about the second half of that statement. Having the same career OPS+ as Kevin Millar doesn't make you the greatest of anything, no matter how many games you play.

If you want to be technical about it, Alex Rodriguez is a better living shortstop than Cal Ripkin. He had about twice as many 900+ OPS seasons in his 10 years at short than Ripkin did in his career.

[Stax]

Lesse... for top 25 besides Ripken...

C:
Gibson*

1B:
Gehrig
Foxx?

2B:
Collins
Hornsby
Morgan

3B:
Schmidt
ARod

SS:
Wagner
John Henry Lloyd*

LF:
Bonds
Williams
Musial
Henderson

CF:
Mays
Cobb
Mantle
Speaker
DiMaggio?

RF:
Ruth
Aaron
Robinson?
Ott?

So that's 17 with no doubt, IMO, greater than Ripken. Toss in 1-2 Negro Leaguers and 4-5 I feel confident (Foxx/Robinson/Ott I'm pretty sure on, DiMaggio not certain) and Ripken barely makes top 25, maybe.

[Pox]

Well he said including pitchers, so its not even that close.

[Stax]

While not maybe one of the very top guys, Rod Carew has to get some mention.
18x All Star, 1967 ROY, 1977 MVP, and 7 batting titles, career .328 BA.

Interesting note on Carew, and the new BB-reference.com with the baserunning numbers lets you look at this, Rod Carew was one of the greatest non-SB baserunners of his time. Similar to what I found about Pujols when OSU brought it up. Now Carew stole plenty of bases, but as Post #12 here (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/rod_carew/) goes into, he was one of the most effective at all other aspects of baserunning in the RetroSheet era (1953 onwards)

I was talking more about the second half of that statement. Having the same career OPS+ as Kevin Millar doesn't make you the greatest of anything, no matter how many games you play.


Position matters.

[Stax]

Well he said including pitchers, so its not even that close.

Yup, plus I forgot Oscar Charleston in listing Negro Leaguers, he's likely greater than DiMaggio so would probably be a *? on that list.

[TheImpossibleMan]

I'd say Robinson is better for sure, no on Ott, not sure on Foxx.

[Stax]

I'd say Robinson is better for sure, no on Ott, not sure on Foxx.

Frank Robinson and Mel Ott are practically clones in terms of value.

Frank R: .294/.389/.537 (154 OPS+) over 11743 PA
Mel Ott: .304/.414/.533 (155 OPS+) over 11337 PA

And even their individual slash stats are similar, adjusting for era (AVG+/OBP+/SLG+, ISO+)

Frank R: 113/118/136, 180 ISO+
Mel Ott: 109/121/134, 196 ISO+

So at the end of the day Robinson was slightly better at hitting for average and running the bases (and had a better "best year" even though they had similar peaks) while Ott got on base a bit more and hit for more power.

But anyways, much as I love Cal Ripken (my favorite non-Yankee as a kid) he's likely more like top 30-40 (including pitchers) not top 20-25.

[Hanover Fist]

Which Robinson?

http://i42.tinypic.com/svgtba.jpg or http://i44.tinypic.com/97l7wx.jpg

[Stax]

Which Robinson?

http://i42.tinypic.com/svgtba.jpg or http://i44.tinypic.com/97l7wx.jpg

He's listed in RF, so guess.

Brooks Robinson was great but he's overrated if he cracks the top 5 even just at 3rd.

[Hanover Fist]

He's listed in RF, so guess.

Brooks Robinson was great but he's overrated if he cracks the top 5 even just at 3rd.

Yeah I just wanted a reason to post more pics from that site. I keep finding more and more gems there like this one.
http://i41.tinypic.com/2lj3yiu.jpg
What the fuck is the deal with Rollies fingers? Is that pine tar or are they horribly burned?

[ninja33]

moustache wax.

[Stax]

Position players:
1. Bonds
2. Mays
3. Aaron
4. Musial
5. Henderson
6. Schmidt

Pitchers:
1. Clemens
2. Maddux
3. Johnson
4. Seaver


Those sound reasonable? And if you're including active players I'd say ARod has slightly passed Schmidt by now.

[TheImpossibleMan]

I wouldn't count Bonds. Man, fuck that guy. I might put Pedro on that list of pitchers...after every P you listed, but up there.

[Stax]

I wouldn't count Bonds. Man, fuck that guy. I might put Pedro on that list of pitchers...after every P you listed, but up there.

Why would you not count Bonds? Aaron and Schmidt both took amphetamines and are on that list, and the performance enhancing effects of that are just as unknown as with steroids. The pitcher who caught Aaron's record breaking HR in the bullpen admitted to taking steroids, how do you know Aaron didn't?

[TheImpossibleMan]

I don't know, so I'm not going to make assumptions. There is hard evidence that Bonds took steroids, none that Aaron did.

[Stax]

I don't know, so I'm not going to make assumptions. There is hard evidence that Bonds took steroids, none that Aaron did.

And there's hard evidence, a direct admission, that Schmidt and Aaron took amphetamines. Do only some performance enhancers "count"? What about Ruth and other old school players who used animal supplements to get natural testosterone boosts? That wasn't "cheating" but had roughly the same effect as a steroid, giving you a big hormone boost.

[CunningRunt]

Back to the original question:

Roberto Clemente
Ted Williams
Babe Ruth
Hank Aaron
Jackie Robinson