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Insomniac
04-27-2009, 10:30 PM
Moral honesty is pretty easy, at least to know. It isn't always followed, of course, but your parents probably did a good job instilling in you an aversion to lying, cheating, stealing, etc. We fall short, but we usually recognize when we have or as we're doing it.

Intellectual honesty is different because an actual rational and even-handed approach to life would be utterly ruinous to us. We need short cuts and prejudices so that we can make decisions fast enough to be effective. When a person pulls a knife on you, you don't have time to give him the benefit of the doubt while you figure out his intentions. So I get that.

What I don't get is why it's not really considered worthwhile to attempt to be intellectually honest and why we don't call people on their intellectual dishonesty so long as they're strictly telling the truth. You misrepresent something or mislead someone, and it's OK. You leave out the weaknesses in your own arguments and hope no one catches them so you'll look right, and that's expected.

Some disagreements are always going to exist between people with different principles or viewpoints, obviously, but most of the time positions or issues or events can't be left alone to be interpreted according to a person's principles. Instead, those speaking about it and even those of us interpreting it for ourselves, have to fit in new information into pre-existing conceptions. Which as I said, is often good or at least necessary, is definitely very bad when a person has the luxury of mulling a thing and being fair about it.

How many political/religious/artistic disagreements on GMF are actually genuine and how many are just people operating on automatic? Any issue or news item is going to descend into the same handful of circular arguments involving the same people, and how could this be so if people were actually looking at particular facts and weighing them on their own merits?

What's so hard being intellectually honest? Why can't we do it?

Archangel
04-27-2009, 10:36 PM
Because if peope loved their wives as much as long espoused opinions, there would be no divorces in the world.

Everybody believes that they're smart, or would at least like to believe thus - therefore, any opinion that one holds must eo ipso be valid; to admit that the other guy may have a point, let alone one better than yours, would shatter many a fragile ego. So you put your fingers in your ears and go "la-la-la" just so you don't have to deal with that.

Mustard
04-27-2009, 11:08 PM
Why is intellectual honesty so difficult?

Oh gosh, I'm sure we could come up with reasons and rationale to back of those reasons for pages and pages. So lets just cut to the chase, and get to the heart of the matter here:

The reason intellectual honesty is so difficult is because (as far as I can see from my own personal experiences) most people aren't even honest with themselves, therefore it would be practically improbable that they would be with others.

nothingman
04-27-2009, 11:44 PM
The reason intellectual honesty is so difficult is because (as far as I can see from my own personal experiences) most people aren't even honest with themselves, therefore it would be practically improbable that they would be with others.

Damn Kaiser I believe that you hit the nail on the head, to quote one of my favorite authors A.C. Weisbecker, "There is no such thing as self-reflection in the world." People say and they do, and they don't even take time to be consistent, they lie to there own damn self and will never admit it unless someone calls them on it, and sometimes not even then.

freegood
04-28-2009, 02:17 AM
Because if peope loved their wives as much as long espoused opinions, there would be no divorces in the world.

Everybody believes that they're smart, or would at least like to believe thus - therefore, any opinion that one holds must eo ipso be valid; to admit that the other guy may have a point, let alone one better than yours, would shatter many a fragile ego. So you put your fingers in your ears and go "la-la-la" just so you don't have to deal with that.

I am right almost all the time, so my ego is neither fragile nor shattered.

Archangel
04-28-2009, 08:08 AM
I am right almost all the time

I know.


I mean, you and I agree on almost everything...

Pharon
04-28-2009, 08:42 AM
For the most part, I don't think people here are intellectually dishonest. And by that, I mean I don't think they are deliberately leaving out holes in their arguments. I think the desire to be right carries an emotional component so strong that people's subconsciences often prevent them from seeing viewpoints opposed to their own.

Then throw on top of that an arrogant response to what you clearly think is a legitimate point, and it makes it virtually impossible to acknowledge.

It's all about posturing. And deep down, we're all just a bunch of 5-year-olds with computer skills.

Archangel
04-28-2009, 10:45 AM
tater?

Pharon
04-28-2009, 10:48 AM
tater is too stupid to be intellectually dishonest.

nothingman
04-28-2009, 11:15 AM
It's all about posturing. And deep down, we're all just a bunch of 5-year-olds with computer skills.

You think I have skills, thanks, I think you have skills too.

Pharon
04-28-2009, 11:22 AM
It's all about posturing. And deep down, we're all just a bunch of 5-year-olds with computer skills.

You think I have skills, thanks, I think you have skills too.
Well, considering you don't know how to quote properly, probably not you.

Who the fuck are you again?

nothingman
04-28-2009, 11:32 AM
Well, considering you don't know how to quote properly, probably not you.

Who the fuck are you again?
nothingman I guess.

Archetype
04-28-2009, 01:26 PM
We're not computers. We aren't just filters for information, we're filters for stories. It's the common element of every human culture. We leave out certain parts because an inconsistent story with holes in it is a shitty story.

Funny then, with stories such a vital part of our lives that escapism holds a monopoly over the entertainment industry. You're not supposed to leave reality, you're supposed to rewrite it. Escapism is what dreams are for, then your body and mind are actually doing something.

freegood
04-30-2009, 02:03 PM
That's the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong.

nothingman
04-30-2009, 03:05 PM
That's the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong.
Yes but that's the ugly side too, that is where the intellectual honesty question comes in. David Letterman told Bill O'Reilly that he (B O'
R) simply couldn't believe all the stupid things that he says. And of course BOR could defend all the stupid things that he says. But all talk radio/tv is cursed w/ no intellectual honesty. It should be called debate radio because once a person picks a side on an issue, that is there side, there is no learning or growing from the discussion. I find it to be quite worthless.

freegood
04-30-2009, 03:51 PM
Shouting and flinging shit at each other isn't the correct way to argue.

Pharon
05-01-2009, 07:32 AM
Shouting and flinging shit at each other isn't the correct way to argue.
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Welcome to GMF.