PDA

View Full Version : LEGAL: California high court to rule on Prop. 8 today


Whiffleball
05-26-2009, 11:17 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/27/us/27marriage.html?em

The California Supreme Court upheld a ban on same-sex marriage (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/s/same_sex_marriage/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) today, ratifying a decision made by voters last year at a time when several state governments have moved in an opposite direction.

The decision, however, preserves the 18,000 marriages performed between the court’s decision last May that same-sex marriage was lawful and the passage by voters in November of Proposition 8, which banned it. Supporters of the proposition argued that the marriages should no longer be recognized.

Today’s opinion (http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/S168047.PDF), written by Chief Justice Ronald M. George for a 6-to-1 majority, said that same-sex couples still have the right to civil unions, which gives them the ability to “choose one’s life partner and enter with that person into a committed, officially recognized, and protected family relationship that enjoys all of the constitutionally based incidents of marriage.” But the justices said that the voters had clearly expressed their will to limit the formality of marriage to opposite-sex couples.

Justice George wrote that Proposition 8 did not “entirely repeal or abrogate” the right to such a protected relationship, but argued that it “carves out a narrow and limited exception to these state constitutional rights, reserving the official designation of the term ‘marriage’ for the union of opposite-sex couples as a matter of state constitutional law.”

The 18,000 existing marriages can stand, he wrote, because Proposition 8 did not include language specifically saying it was retroactive.
Heated reaction to the decision began immediately, with protestors blocking traffic near the Supreme Court, and advocates for same-sex marriage beginning plans for another election. In Los Angeles, Jennifer Pizer, the Marriage Project Director for Lambda Legal, said that the decision “puts it to us to repair the damage at the ballot box.” One of the state’s largest gay rights groups, Equality California, sent an e-mail message to supporters pleading for contributions to raise $500,000 toward “a massive campaign to put an initiative on the ballot and win.”
Shannon Minter, the legal director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights (http://www.nclrights.org/), called the decision “a terrible blow to the thousands of gay and lesbian Californians who woke up this morning hoping and praying their status as equal citizens of this state would be restored.”

Those who backed Proposition 8 were elated. Andrew P. Pugno, general counsel for ProtectMarriage.com (http://protectmarriage.com/), the leading group behind last year’s initiative, said he and his allies were “very gratified” by the decision. “This is the culmination of years of hard work to preserve marriage in California,” he said in an e-mail message.

Kenneth W. Starr (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/kenneth_w_starr/index.html?inline=nyt-per), dean of the Pepperdine University (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/p/pepperdine_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org) School of Law and the lawyer who argued the case in favor of Proposition 8, said that the ruling “represents a ringing judicial affirmation of the right of the people of California to amend the state constitution at the ballot box.” The same court had ruled in May (http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/archive/S147999.PDF) that same-sex couples enjoyed the same fundamental “right to marry” as opposite-sex couples. That sweeping 4-3 decision provoked a backlash from opponents that led to Proposition 8, which garnered 52 percent of the vote last November after a bitter electoral fight.

The opinion marks a new round in the long-running battle in California over the issue, and will almost certainly lead to a counter-initiative intended to overturn Proposition 8, which changed the state constitution, as early as next year.

The opinion focused on whether the use of a voter initiative to narrow constitutional rights under Proposition 8 went too far.

Supporters of same-sex marriage, who filed several suits challenging the proposition, argued that the change to the state’s constitution was so fundamental that the initiative was not an amendment to the constitution but a “revision,” a term for measures that rework core constitutional principles.

Revisions, under California law, cannot be decided through a simple signature drive and majority vote, which is what led to Proposition 8; they can only be placed on the ballot with a two-thirds vote by the legislature.

But the justices said the proposition was an amendment, not a revision. It has historically been rare for the state’s courts to overturn initiatives on the ground that they are actually revisions, and many legal scholars deemed the challenge against Proposition 8 a long shot.

The question of whether Proposition 8 was an amendment or revision was the centerpiece of the oral arguments before the State Supreme Court during its hearing on March 5.

The justices who had issued the ringing support of same-sex marriage in 2008 presented a far less supportive front during the three-hour hearing. A number of justices who had voted in the majority in the 2008 case, particularly Joyce L. Kennard, strongly suggested in their questions from the bench that they were reluctant to overturn the will of the voters or to undercut the initiative process.

In questions that clearly anticipated the logic of today’s majority opinion, the justices had seemed to be seeking a middle ground that would allow the rights they had affirmed the year before to be preserved in the form of civil unions, which would be different from marriage in name only. Justice Kennard suggested that the substantive rights of gays were the same after the proposition, and all that had changed was “the label of marriage.”

That distinction was deeply dissatisfying to Mr. Minter, representing the plaintiffs, who argued that without the right to the word “marriage,” same-sex couples would find “our outsider status enshrined in our Constitution.”

Chief Justice George’s opinion dealt directly with that point, stating that the court understood the importance of the word marriage and was not trying to diminish it. However, he wrote, the legal right of people to call themselves married is only one of the rights granted to same-sex couples in the decision last May, and so “it is only the designation of marriage -- albeit significant--that has been removed by this initiative measure.”

Karl Manheim, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, called the decision a “safe” position written by justices who can be recalled by voters. The change wrought by Proposition 8 was anything but narrow, he said, and claiming that the word marriage was essentially symbolic was like telling black people that sitting in the back of the bus was not important as long as the front and back of the bus arrive at the same time.In the months since the case was argued, three other states have legalized same-sex marriage. On April 3, Iowa’s supreme court struck down a state statute that limited civil marriage to a union between a man and a woman — and cited California’s 2008 decision repeatedly in support of its ruling. Less than a week later, the Vermont Legislature narrowly overrode a veto by Gov. Jim Douglas of a bill that allowed same-sex couples to marry. Then on May 6, Maine’s legislature, too, passed a bill allowing same-sex marriage, and Gov. John Baldacci signed it.

Initiatives are also moving forward in New York and New Jersey; a similar measure has stalled in the New Hampshire legislature by a slim margin this month, but could come up for a new vote next month.

At the same time, attitudes of Americans toward same-sex marriage favor liberalization of the practice. In an April CBS/New York Times poll, 42 percent of those surveyed favored same-sex marriage, up from 21 percent at election time in 2004, when it was a wedge issue during the presidential campaign. That poll suggests the trend will continue into the future: 57 percent of the respondents favored legal recognition for same-sex marriage, compared with 31 percent of respondents over the age of 40.

The sole dissenting vote in Tuesday’s decision came from the court’s only Democrat, Justice Carlos R. Moreno (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/carlos_r_moreno/index.html?inline=nyt-per), who had been mentioned as possible choice by President Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) for the United States Supreme Court (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/supreme_court/index.html?inline=nyt-org). He wrote that Proposition 8 means “requiring discrimination,” which he said “strikes at the core of the promise of equality that underlies our California Constitution” -- and, he added, “places at risk the state constitutional rights of all disfavored minorities.”

Chief Justice George wrote that the court was bound to uphold the right of California voters to amend the constitution, whatever the merits of the claim that it is too easy to do so. And so, he wrote, if there is to be a constitutional challenge to Proposition 8, it must “find its expression at the ballot box.”

The language of Justice George’s decision seemed almost regretful, as he wrote that “our task in the present proceeding is not to determine whether the provision at issue is wise or sound as a matter of policy or whether we, as individuals, believe it should be a part of the California Constitution.” Instead, he wrote, “our role is limited to interpreting and applying the principles and rules embodied in the California Constitution, setting aside our own personal beliefs and values.”I fucking love denying equal protection under law and basic humanity and compassion to our fabulous brethren.

An amendment can't be unconstitutional, and that's really all it comes down to. Upheld. The court can't help that the people of California are homophobic.

Pharon
05-26-2009, 11:39 AM
An amendment can't be unconstitutional, and that's really all it comes down to. Upheld.
This is what's confusing me -- what's there to uphold? It's an amendment to the State Constitution, not a legislative statute.

Alcestis
05-26-2009, 12:04 PM
Just in...

Prop 8 has been upheld by the Supreme Court.

BREAKING NEWS: Calif. high court upholds gay marriage ban but allows existing marriages to stand

Just waiting for updated link..

Damn shame, but not surprising.

Whiffleball
05-26-2009, 12:11 PM
Updated the OP

Pharon
05-26-2009, 01:53 PM
BREAKING NEWS: Calif. high court upholds gay marriage ban but allows existing [gay] marriages to stand
They just ensured a reversal by the U.S. Supreme Court on that one -- I don't see how they can avoid a 14th Amendment Equal Protection challenge here.

So either SCOTUS will declare gay marriage to be legal or will void all existing gay marriages in California. Interesting times ahead, I think.

BIG PIZZLE
05-26-2009, 01:59 PM
Californians are hilarious. Pissed off at the court for upholding the public's will.

Stax
05-26-2009, 02:41 PM
This is what's confusing me -- what's there to uphold? It's an amendment to the State Constitution, not a legislative statute.

I think the idea is that whatever provisions the court saw as requiring gay marriage a year ago still exist in the Constitution and this Prop didn't override those, in other words (according to them) a conflict within the Constitution, like if the 21st amendment was passed without repealing the 18th, or if the Constitution was amended to legalize slavery without repealing the 13th, or something like that.

It's a stupid argument, but I think it's something like that.

Whiffleball
05-26-2009, 03:15 PM
Updated da OP with a longer more detailed article now that one is up.

The court was right, but that doesn't make it any less shitty.

Rover
05-26-2009, 03:23 PM
Lost in all this is that the gays can still get civil unioned and enjoy all the constitutional (CA) protections that go along with it. They just can't get married. Chalk one up for Webster's dicitonary.

Morfin
05-26-2009, 03:53 PM
This is the money shot from the article Whiffle posted.
Chief Justice George wrote that the court was bound to uphold the right of California voters to amend the constitution, whatever the merits of the claim that it is too easy to do so. And so, he wrote, if there is to be a constitutional challenge to Proposition 8, it must “find its expression at the ballot box.”

The language of Justice George’s decision seemed almost regretful, as he wrote that “our task in the present proceeding is not to determine whether the provision at issue is wise or sound as a matter of policy or whether we, as individuals, believe it should be a part of the California Constitution.” Instead, he wrote, “our role is limited to interpreting and applying the principles and rules embodied in the California Constitution, setting aside our own personal beliefs and values.” This concept has gone, and will continue to go, over the head of all the protesters. Hell, why worry about legal analysis when you can protest and scream "discrimination."

BIG PIZZLE
05-26-2009, 04:46 PM
I think the idea is that whatever provisions the court saw as requiring gay marriage a year ago still exist in the Constitution and this Prop didn't override those, in other words (according to them) a conflict within the Constitution, like if the 21st amendment was passed without repealing the 18th, or if the Constitution was amended to legalize slavery without repealing the 13th, or something like that.

It's a stupid argument, but I think it's something like that.

Laws are usually not retroactive. It would be like outlawing drinking and then prosecuting everyone who drank prior to the outlawing. So the ruling makes sense but it leaves the door open for some litigous fag to find a way to exploit the confilct between the constitution as it now reads and the fact that gay marriages exist in spite of it in order get it up to the US Supreme Court. The majority of the California Supreme Court's Decisions are crafted in such a way as to challenge the solicitor genearal to have the US Supreme court review them. It's like they get their shits and giggles by getting reviewed by the Superemes.

cAsE sEnSiTiVe
05-26-2009, 05:47 PM
This was expected....what can be said, the people had originally spoken 2 elections ago. This isnt over, im sure California will cave within the next year or two. Hell they are already expeditiously passing through a initiative to have a school holiday " Harvey Milk Gay Day ". It's already passed through through legislature and is expected to easily get passed through the house and on Arnold's desk by July. They can pass a official Gay day without delay but the state budget gets passed 8 months late.

Stax
05-26-2009, 05:52 PM
Laws are usually not retroactive. It would be like outlawing drinking and then prosecuting everyone who drank prior to the outlawing. So the ruling makes sense but it leaves the door open for some litigous fag to find a way to exploit the confilct between the constitution as it now reads and the fact that gay marriages exist in spite of it in order get it up to the US Supreme Court. The majority of the California Supreme Court's Decisions are crafted in such a way as to challenge the solicitor genearal to have the US Supreme court review them. It's like they get their shits and giggles by getting reviewed by the Superemes.

Well, to be fair, this is an issue that begs for a national answer.

Stax
05-26-2009, 05:52 PM
Lost in all this is that the gays can still get civil unioned and enjoy all the constitutional (CA) protections that go along with it. They just can't get married. Chalk one up for Webster's dicitonary.

I'm not a protesting fag, but

http://1conservativemomma.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/segregation-drinking-fountain.jpg

"Separate but Equal is Inherently Unequal"

freegood
05-26-2009, 09:41 PM
Here's an idea. Instead of voting about queers and their marriages, how about passing a spending amendment that will save the state from bankruptcy?

Stax
05-26-2009, 09:46 PM
The state is capable of doing more than one thing at once. Particularly here, where it's not the legislature that's at issue.

Hanover Fist
05-26-2009, 10:18 PM
Well here's an interesting spin on the story. The Federal appeal of this ruling was filed by none other than Ted Olsen the Solicitor General under GWB.

http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid86253.asp

Prop. 8 Challenge Filed in Federal Court

By Andrew Harmon
Prop. 8 Challenge Filed in Federal Court

In a bold move that takes a new approach to achieving marriage equality, two attorneys who argued opposing sides of the 2000 Bush v. Gore lawsuit before the U.S. Supreme Court have filed a challenge to Proposition 8 in federal court, The Advocate has learned.

Theodore B. Olson, the U.S. solicitor general from 2001 to 2004 under President George W. Bush, and David Boies, a high-profile trial lawyer who argued on behalf of former vice president Al Gore, filed the suit May 22 in U.S. district court on behalf of two California gay couples.

The attorneys argue that relegating same-sex couples to domestic partnerships instead of granting them full marriage rights is a violation of the equal protection and due process clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Olson said he was contacted several months ago by representatives of an association called the American Foundation for Equal Rights about his willingness to represent the two couples named in the suit.

“For a long time I’ve personally felt that we are doing a grave injustice for people throughout this country by denying equality to gay and lesbian individuals,” Olson said in an interview with The Advocate. “The individuals that we represent and will be representing in this case feel they’re being denied their rights. And they’re entitled to have a court vindicate those rights.”

When pressed about his service with the Bush administration, which in 2004 endorsed an amendment to the U.S. constitution that would prohibit same-sex marriage, Olson said he was personally against the amendment at the time, though he made no public statements on the matter.

As for the timing of the suit, Olson said that recent decisions by the U.S. Supreme Court “make it clear that individuals are entitled to be treated equally under the Constitution. I’m reasonably confident that this is the right time for these [injustices] to be vindicated.”

Olson, Boies, and other attorneys working on the suit are being compensated by the American Foundation for Equal Rights, Olson said his law firm and others also are contributing resources pro bono. As of press time, no website could be found for the newly formed organization. Olson and his representatives declined to specify who was funding the campaign.

The plaintiffs in the suit are Kristin Perry and Sandra Stier of Berkeley, Calif., and Paul Katami and Jeffrey Zarrillo of Burbank, Calif. Perry is executive director of First 5 California, a state health and education agency.

Pox
05-26-2009, 10:25 PM
Not only that, but Olsen did the oral argument for Bush in Bush V Gore. I guess the legal world is pretty small.

iolas
05-26-2009, 10:34 PM
Can't they just make this easy and make the government only be able to give civil unions? Leave marriage as a stupid church ceremony which the government has no control over.

Rover
05-27-2009, 11:06 AM
I'm not a protesting fag, but


"Separate but Equal is Inherently Unequal"See, this is where you're mistaken. It isn't separate but equal. Men can marry women. Women can marry men. Men have to civil union men. Women have to civil union women.

A violation of equal protection would be if the government said that some men cannot marry women. Or some men cannot civil union men. That's what the government was doing with Jim Crow. (your water fountain is a really poor example) Some men could do things that other men couldn't. (I'm talking about voting and paying poll taxes and denying government contracts to minority owned businesses, not something like whether or not the government should be able to regulate who gets to sit at the counter of your diner). Those things are inherently unfair.

This isn't the case here. You just have two separate process for two separate things. Not two separate processes based on distinguishing characteristics. Put simply, you don't get thrown into the civil union line because you're gay; you're put there because you want "marry" someone of the same sex.

Weenis
05-27-2009, 11:15 AM
Laws are usually not retroactive. It would be like outlawing drinking and then prosecuting everyone who drank prior to the outlawing.

It's not really like that at all. It's not the actual gay wedding that was outlawed, it is the institution of marriage that was. So the gays that are already married are continuing to get the privileges, legal protections, tax recognitions ect.

So it is hard to understand how the court would allow people to "benefit" from something that is now illegal.

It is more analogous to someone who owned a bar before prohibition. When selling alcohol was outlawed, did they allow anyone who already had a bar to keep selling?

Weenis
05-27-2009, 11:16 AM
This is the money shot from the article Whiffle posted.
This concept has gone, and will continue to go, over the head of all the protesters. Hell, why worry about legal analysis when you can protest and scream "discrimination."

It is discrimination, but not on the part of the court. It's on the part of the electorate. The court made the only legal ruling it really could.

Can't they just make this easy and make the government only be able to give civil unions? Leave marriage as a stupid church ceremony which the government has no control over.

I've been saying this forever...

Weenis
05-27-2009, 11:18 AM
See, this is where you're mistaken. It isn't separate but equal. Men can marry women. Women can marry men. Men have to civil union men. Women have to civil union women.

You can marry the person you love. A gay person can't.

That's where it's not equal.

Pharon
05-27-2009, 12:05 PM
You can marry the person you love. A gay person can't.

That's where it's not equal.
Marriage is the absence of love.

IdiotBrain
05-27-2009, 12:20 PM
Weenis, people who commit to a civil union get the same benefits as people who commit to marriage. Therefore teh gays that are already married are reaping no benefits from something thats now considered "illegal" that two gays in a civil union wouldn't also reap.


Also, This should be a church by church issue, not a state issue.

Rover
05-27-2009, 12:31 PM
You can marry the person you love. A gay person can't.

That's where it's not equal.What the fuck?

Love has never been a requirement for marriage. Not everyone can marry the person they love. Life isn't nearly that fair.

freegood
05-27-2009, 12:53 PM
The state is capable of doing more than one thing at once. Particularly here, where it's not the legislature that's at issue.

Still, you don't see one quarter as many people marching the streets protesting against their bankrupt and deadlocked state compared to the protests in court or the turnout from Prop 8.

The only realistic way to pass a budget in Cali is through referendum or voters pressuring the Republican state congressmen.

redsox39
05-27-2009, 01:13 PM
Gee, I guess those Corn Fed, bible beating assholes in Iowa might not be as bad as those Liberal, progressive, compassionate people in California.

jemeske
05-27-2009, 01:21 PM
Except one came about via a vote and the other was a court ruling.

Also, what happens if you're a liberal, progressive, compassionate person who also happens to eat corn, go to church, and be from the state of Iowa?

Pharon
05-27-2009, 01:34 PM
Except one came about via a vote and the other was a court ruling.
Well, technically... in Iowa it was a law passed by legislative vote (and governor signature), and in California it was a Constitutional amendment passed by a referendum vote.

Weenis
05-27-2009, 01:59 PM
Weenis, people who commit to a civil union get the same benefits as people who commit to marriage. Therefore teh gays that are already married are reaping no benefits from something thats now considered "illegal" that two gays in a civil union wouldn't also reap.

Then what's the problem? If it's the same as marriage, why make laws against calling it marriage? Is this really a semantics problem?


Also, This should be a church by church issue, not a state issue.

I agree. I don't really get why the government involves itself in any kind of marriage.

Pharon
05-27-2009, 02:01 PM
Is this really a semantics problem?
That's exactly what this is.

BIG PIZZLE
05-27-2009, 02:14 PM
I don't really get why the government involves itself in any kind of marriage.Taxes.

BIG PIZZLE
05-27-2009, 02:16 PM
Gee, I guess those Corn Fed, bible beating assholes in Iowa might not be as bad as those Liberal, progressive, compassionate people in California.

I'm assuming there's nothing like this in Iowa.

http://z.about.com/d/gaylife/1/0/u/Y/2623335335_b97fb50533.jpg

Pharon
05-27-2009, 02:18 PM
I don't really get why the government involves itself in any kind of marriage.
Taxes.
Also inheritance rights when no legal will exists.

jemeske
05-27-2009, 02:24 PM
I'm assuming there's nothing like this in Iowa.

http://z.about.com/d/gaylife/1/0/u/Y/2623335335_b97fb50533.jpg
That's the same dress I wore to prom!

Das Kahlua
05-28-2009, 10:15 AM
You can marry the person you love. A gay person can't.

That's where it's not equal.

It would be unequal if a law were not being applied consistently to people in the same position. Comparing a man and a woman getting married is not the same as two men or two women getting married. It would be unequal if a state were banning interracial marriage. This is a case of trying to change and expand the definition of marriage because 'no one can be left out.'

A major distinction I think needs to be made is that 'equal' =/= 'the same.' Two people or legal classes can be equal without being the same. Men and women are equal, blacks and whites are equal, but that doesn't make them the same. Too much effort has been put into trying to make these groups the same that we have begun to blur the line of equality.

But, as Pharon said, this is a matter of semantics.