Are the Chrysler Plants Shutting Down on a Partisan Bias?

[redsox39]

Ok, let me start with this. The evidence is still coming in, and this could be nothing. Granted, there is a SMALL chance it will be nothing, but there is a small chance Jean-Claude VanDamme will win an Oscar too. (Fuck, he has a better chance than you do!)

That being said, from what I am seeing here in the mid-west, it seems that the Chrysler Dealerships that are being shut down by the "Car Czar" in Washington, are suspiciously partisan.

Example 1: In the Bentonville area, there were 3 Chrysler dealerships. Now there will be one. And the one that remains open is a Obama donor, while the other 2 were a GOP donor and an owner with no political donations.
There will be no other dealers in about 30 miles I believe, giving this guy a monopoly in the area.

Example 2: Huntsville, Alabama. Same as above. The Obama donor is staying open, while the Government is shutting down the 2 GOP donors.

Example 3: Branson, Missouri. 4 dealerships. The Obama donor is staying open, while the GOP guys is shut down. The 2 non-donors also will be shut down.

Example 4: Lee's Summit/Raytown, Missouri.

5 dealerships, the pattern is the same. The Obama donor is staying open, while the other 4 GOP donors are being shut down.

Example 5: Shreveport, LA:
3 dealers, Obama guy is staying open, while a guy who donated $24,000 to the GOP and $3400 to the Democratic party is getting shut down.
The other dealship owner gave $4200 to GOP and only $2500 to a Local Dem candidate and is also getting shut down. On top of that, he is also on the National Auto Dealers Association Board of Directors representing Louisiana.

Many others, but I didn't want you to think this is an isolated incident, this is happening everywhere. In fact, out of all the research I have read, and some leg work I have done, only one guy, Jeffrey Hunter, of Waco, Texas, is on the closing list. He gave Obama $200.

Now this is where the controversey sets in. I don't think that the Obama campaign is doing anything wrong. They are scratching the backs of those who helped him. But...I have a feeling that this might blow up sooner or later and he better have a better excuse than that for the press.
And let's be honest, how many dealerships for Chrysler do we need in areas like this? I think it is not a bad thing to shut some down, but the selection is pretty obvious on who is getting the Axe.
What do you think?


Obviously, yes, redsox hates Obama. Get it out of your system.
I am taking more about the Business Ethics and Government Ethics of the situation. Being a business guy, and a crony kind of guy, I think this is a pretty smooth move from the "great uniter" (if you ignore that this is just another step of government into our private industry).
But I have a feeling this will not go over well Nationally. (like it matters)

Pizz- talk about water boarding somewhere else.

[Morfin]

What is your source for the info? I am not looking to denigrate, but I am curious. My understanding (with virtually no real knowledge), is that Chrysler made the call, not the government. Especially since there were congresspersons calling for legislation that Chrysler had to give 60 days' notice.

[redsox39]

What is your source for the info? I am not looking to denigrate, but I am curious. My understanding (with virtually no real knowledge), is that Chrysler made the call, not the government. Especially since there were congresspersons calling for legislation that Chrysler had to give 60 days' notice.

I spoke with President Jim Press on Tuesday and I came away with the impression that Press did not support the plan...

"It became clear to us that Chrysler does not see the wisdom of terminating 25 percent of its dealers," Bellavia said. "It really wasn't Chrysler's decision. They are under enormous pressure from the President's automotive task force."

But for the hard evidence:

Dealers on the closing list donated millions to Republicans...and $200 for Obama.

Or
Dealer Jim Anderer told his news station he can't comprehend how his dealership can be among those killed: he stated that his sales volume ranking is in the top 2 percent of all dealers, regardless of brand.

[satandole666]

Do you have any sources I can click to and read?

If this is true it is a pretty sly move.

[redsox39]

Do you have any sources I can click to and read?

If this is true it is a pretty sly move.

its all pretty spotty from Blogs and obviously hard right-wing sites (hence my disclaimer), but a few places that are good to start with:

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2009/05/dealergate-statistical-evidence-that.html

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/05/27/a-look-at-the-protected-chrysler-dealerships/

Plus, just google it...Fox News is starting to whiff it, so I am sure that soon there will be some heavy research going towards it (to discredit Obama more than anything...but at least we'll know)

[BIG PIZZLE]

WATERBOARDING!!! But seriously, that's fucked up. I find it hard to believe that there isnt a rational buisness reason beind which chosing which dealerships to close. Arbitrarily closing stores or closing on the basis of politial allegiance is not only irresponsibel and bad business but it may also be illegal.

[redsox39]

WATERBOARDING!!! But seriously, that's fucked up. I find it hard to believe that there isnt a rational buisness reason beind which chosing which dealerships to close. Arbitrarily closing stores or closing on the basis of politial allegiance is not only irresponsibel and bad business but it may also be illegal.


lol, just thought I'd nip that torture thing in the bud early.

I don't know if it is illegal though. If it was, you would think they'd be more careful about it, but these guys that are getting shut down are all going to the News.

I just think it is a good old boy thing, and while you can look at it and frown, fuck, that's been the American way for almost 300 years.

All of a sudden though, Haliburton (shhhh...) comes to mind...

[The Dude]

I heard that if you put all the closed dealerships on a map and connect the dots that it forms the star of david. Its all the black jews' fault

[redsox39]

I heard that if you put all the closed dealerships on a map and connect the dots that it forms the star of david. Its all the black jews' fault

I heard that if we connect all the pock marks on your face, it spells "D-bag".

PS - fucking black jews and their pockmark machines

[The Dude]

learn to take a joke. I hate Obama, liberals, democrats, etc and am fairly conservative---same team, dumbass.

[Morfin]

This is interesting, but I'll wait until some of the more-mainstream media get involved. I am not closing my mind on what's out there so far, but it is all right-wing blogs. However, this is from something called The Business Insider, which appears to be either neutral or left-leaning:
Conversely, stats-god Nate Silver (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/news-flash-car-dealers-are-republicans.html) throws cold water on the whole thing, noting that car dealer deanerships go 88% to Republican candidates. He says this isn't a conspiracy, it's just bad math. But as Megan McArdle (http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/05/closing_chryslers_dealers_cui.php) notes, it's still odd that they've only found one Obama donor on the closed list (12% Democratic donation rate is small, but it's not nil). And the fact that the one really Democratic chain went unscathed also raises eyebrows.Link (http://www.businessinsider.com/more-believe-that-republican-chrysler-dealers-were-targeted-2009-5)

Megan McArdle writes for The Atlantic's blog. Her post on this is here (http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/05/closing_chryslers_dealers_cui.php).

We shall see.

[redsox39]

This is interesting, but I'll wait until some of the more-mainstream media get involved. I am not closing my mind on what's out there so far, but it is all right-wing blogs. However, this is from something called The Business Insider, which appears to be either neutral or left-leaning:
Link (http://www.businessinsider.com/more-believe-that-republican-chrysler-dealers-were-targeted-2009-5)

Megan McArdle writes for The Atlantic's blog. Her post on this is here (http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/05/closing_chryslers_dealers_cui.php).

We shall see.

If all I had was far right wing blogs and no evidence I couldn't verify, I would have never posted it here. But it seems to be fairly evident, so I thought we could watch it has it happens, before the Government, Chrysler and media puts all the spin on it.

It looks pretty obvious, and really pretty brilliant if it is not illegal.

[Trident]

Is there no geographic reasoning for this? Car dealerships are pretty well-spaced in the UK, 30 miles between main dealers is not unusual.

[Morfin]

It really is not "so obvious." If you take a look at the analysis that Nate Silver does on his 538 blog (click on his name in my previous post), you will see that it is not necessarily a simple issue. His conclusion:
Overall, 88 percent of the contributions from car dealers went to Republican candidates and just 12 percent to Democratic candidates. By comparison, the list of dealers on Doug Ross's list (which I haven't vetted, but I assume is fine) gave 92 percent of their money to Republicans -- not really a significant difference.

There's no conspiracy here, folks -- just some bad math.

It shouldn't be any surprise, by the way, that car dealers tend to vote -- and donate -- Republican. They are usually male, they are usually older (you don't own an auto dealership in your 20s), and they have obvious reasons to be pro-business, pro-tax cut, anti-green energy and anti-labor. Car dealerships need quite a bit of space and will tend to be located in suburban or rural areas. I can't think of too many other occupations that are more natural fits for the Republican Party. Unfortunately, while we are still a nation of drivers, we are not a nation of dealers.

Now, with that said, the issue of the McLarty/Johnson dealerships warrants some close scrutiny due to their high-level Democratic connections. But, again, I have not yet seen information on how the decisions were made and who made them. So, I wait.

[redsox39]

Is there no geographic reasoning for this? Car dealerships are pretty well-spaced in the UK, 30 miles between main dealers is not unusual.

Not here...they are like fucking Starbucks on every corner in the midwest USA. If you check out "Car Dealers in Omaha, NE" on yellow pages.com, you will see over 190 pages of listings...

I agree, that some of them should go, but the choices of who is going are quite fishy.

[redsox39]

It really is not "so obvious." If you take a look at the analysis that Nate Silver does on his 538 blog (click on his name in my previous post), you will see that it is not necessarily a simple issue. His conclusion:


Now, with that said, the issue of the McLarty/Johnson dealerships warrants some close scrutiny due to their high-level Democratic connections. But, again, I have not yet seen information on how the decisions were made and who made them. So, I wait.

I agree, but one guy DID the math on one of the major dealers down south:

"All other factors being equal, what are the odds that RLJ's dealerships would remain open while all other area dealerships would be shuttered? The approximate odds of such an occurrence can be calculated. 789 of the Chrysler's dealerships are closing, which represents 25% of the total (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30743464/) (according to MSNBC).

Recall that Chrysler claimed that its formula for determining whether a dealership should close or not included "sales volume, customer service scores, local market share and average household income in the immediate area."

Thus, the odds that any, randomly selected, single dealership would remain open is roughly 75%. The odds that a single dealership would close is roughly 25%.

In the Bentonville, AR territory, the odds that RLJ would remain while its competition gets axed is .75 * .25 * .25 = .046875 (4.6%).

In Huntsville, AL, the odds are .75 * .25 * .25 = .046875.

In Branson, MO, .75 * .25 *.25 *.25 = .01171875.

In Lee's Summit, MO, .75 * .25 *.25 *.25 *.25 = .0029296875.

In Shreveport, LA, .75 * .25 *.75 = .140625.

What are the odds of all of these RLJ dealerships remaining open while their competitors are wiped out? Maybe 1/10,000,000 of 1%. Yes, that's one ten-millionth of one percent."

[BIG PIZZLE]

Well it makes sense that if the majority of car dealerships are owned by republicans then the majority of the ones being closed would be republican as well. It's like saying that women have a greater chance of being pregnant than men do.

[mongo]

i absolutely love it when the news section becomes a copy and paste from other blogs debate.

[BIG PIZZLE]

See: every redsox thread.

[mongo]

what? you're telling me his posts aren't original thoughts? oh my lord!1

[redsox39]

Well it makes sense that if the majority of car dealerships are owned by republicans then the majority of the ones being closed would be republican as well. It's like saying that women have a greater chance of being pregnant than men do.

But its not just the Majority, it is all but one so far on the list.

That is like me shooting 50 black people in canada and killing one white person and say it isn't a racial thing because there was one white dude.


And to Tim/Bobby/Mongo/Troll:

This is the P/C section, not news.

[redsox39]

See: every redsox thread.

I'd argue you to back this up, but I could care less. Besides, I have way more typos than any blog could dream of having.

I just copied the math. AND SAID I COPIED the math.

In anycase, I think they (right wing bloggers) are looking at this wrong anyways. They should be taking notes.

[Morfin]

i absolutely love it when the news section becomes a copy and paste from other blogs debate.

What the matter? Couldn't find anyone to gay play with in OT, so you had to come here and add nothing?

[mongo]

What the matter? Couldn't find anyone to gay play with in OT, so you had to come here and add nothing?

here, i'll add something.

who fucking cares? democrat or republican, none of them will be in business in 5 years anyway.

[redsox39]

Just in, turns out Congressman Vern Bucanhan, (R- Florida) just had his dealership added to the kill list.

Oh, and the guys that own Lithia Motors groups and gave $20,000 to the Dems, not only get to keep all of their 27 dealerships, they have been given the green light to open 5 more.


Also, and newspaper has picked this up...In Illinois...

http://www.pjstar.com/homepage/x72362783/Schock-criticizes-plan-to-close-two-Chrysler-dealerships

Favorite part:



To him, the decision to close shop makes no sense. He claims he met all sales expectations and never cost Chrysler money. Rather, he said, he was a "Five Star" dealership, the highest rating Chrysler gives, and one of the better-selling dealerships.
Terry Allen, whose Chrysler dealership in Mason City will be eliminated, said his business was the top sales tax generator in the area.

[Morfin]

here, i'll add something.

who fucking cares? democrat or republican, none of them will be in business in 5 years anyway.Thanks. Super. Now go away. Why don't you go think up the next name that you'll give yourself. It is so amusing. It shows that you're one of the cool kids.

[fuldstændigamok]

Thanks. Super. Now go away. Why don't you go think up the next name that you'll give yourself. It is so amusing. It shows that you're one of the cool kids.

He's so cool I don't even know who he was originally. Good thing that I don't give a shit, then.

[Das Kahlua]

Sean Hannity had something about this on his show today, so it must be legit.

[Whiffleball]

could it be that... maybe... most dealer owners are Republicans? and that.. maybe... those dealers that weren't closed are also predominantly Republican? HUMMMM

Car dealers are the scum of the earth, somehow this is correlated with being Republican

[IdiotBrain]

Just another way the government is sticking its hands in the publics business.

This is a free fucking market. A dealership should NEVER have to close its doors unless it is not making money, or because the owner decides to.

Republican or democrat or not, the government should have ZERO say in who stays open and who doesn't.

[freegood]

This is a great topic.

Keep it up RedSox!

More as it develops...

[Infotainment]

What is your source for the info? I am not looking to denigrate, but I am curious. My understanding (with virtually no real knowledge), is that Chrysler made the call, not the government. Especially since there were congresspersons calling for legislation that Chrysler had to give 60 days' notice.

The government is the largest creditor of Chrysler now.. You don't think they had a say in any of this? Also remember how the plans had to be approved before they got funds...

[Infotainment]

Just another way the government is sticking its hands in the publics business.

This is a free fucking market. A dealership should NEVER have to close its doors unless it is not making money, or because the owner decides to.

Republican or democrat or not, the government should have ZERO say in who stays open and who doesn't.

This is so misguided, half the problem is Chrysler is fronting cars for all these dealership and the dealerships just have to pay interest on the loans when they sell the cars. What happens when there's 5000 dealerships asking for cars... you have to ramp up your own costs and get paid for those costs somewhere down the road which is a huge drain on your own cash. Christ, these car dealerships are practically like pyramid schemes as long as demand and sales keep going up they can keep moving but as soon as things go wrong they are fucked. Chrysler has to do one of two things, either make the dealer buy the car outright or switch to a JIT ("Just In Time" for you accounting n00bs) inventory system in which the dealerships keep MODEST amounts of cars on hand and anything different than that you order and receive two weeks later.

[redsox39]

could it be that... maybe... most dealer owners are Republicans? and that.. maybe... those dealers that weren't closed are also predominantly Republican? HUMMMM

Car dealers are the scum of the earth, somehow this is correlated with being Republican


2 things.

1. Thanks for bringing nothing to the table, repeating what everyone else has said, throwing math out the window and reitierating that the less than 1% chance is the obvious answer. Seriously. You are like Keith Olberman without the cool ESPN years.

2. "USED" Car Dealers are the Scum of the Earth. Right After Lawyers. (Sorry Morphin)

[Morfin]

No need to apologize. I'm the one who has to deal with lawyers all day. I know what they're (I'm) like.

[Trident]

Chrysler has to do one of two things, either make the dealer buy the car outright or switch to a JIT ("Just In Time" for you accounting n00bs) inventory system in which the dealerships keep MODEST amounts of cars on hand and anything different than that you order and receive two weeks later.

Again, this makes sense and sits better with UK style dealerships. They are rarely massive sites and waiting times can be anything from next few days to four weeks for standard cars (non-luxury/exotic). I assume consumer demand in the US is that if Bubba wants his SUV, then Bubba gets it there and then.

There are few businesses that operate with large amounts of their cash tied up in stock in store yards.

This is the problem: managing change. It's a bitch at the best of times, but people have to accept the way the entire US car industry worked is wrong, outdated and prone to massive collapse.

[redsox39]

Again, this makes sense and sits better with UK style dealerships. They are rarely massive sites and waiting times can be anything from next few days to four weeks for standard cars (non-luxury/exotic). I assume consumer demand in the US is that if Bubba wants his SUV, then Bubba gets it there and then.

There are few businesses that operate with large amounts of their cash tied up in stock in store yards.

This is the problem: managing change. It's a bitch at the best of times, but people have to accept the way the entire US car industry worked is wrong, outdated and prone to massive collapse.

I actually agree with you 100%.

it is a major purchase...people should be able to wait a few weeks for a new car. If not, go buy a used car or rent one.

[Hanover Fist]

I actually agree with you 100%.

it is a major purchase...people should be able to wait a few weeks for a new car. If not, go buy a used car or rent one.

I think it got that way for 2 reasons. Originally it was a competition thing. Car dealers thought by having more cars on the lot they would prevent someone who didn't want to wait for a car from going elsewhere to buy one. Because there were so many dealers, if the one nearest you didn't have the exact car you wanted you could usually drive less than 10 miles to another who most likely would have that car. It became a vicious cycle where dealers wanted more and more cars to keep prospective buyers on their lots. The second reason was that the automakers were outstripping demand and force feeding the cars to the dealers to keep their books looking better. In many cases the dealers had no choice but to take the cars even if they didn't necessarily want or need them.
I heard on the radio today that Chrysler has over 300,000 unsold vehicles sitting around the US at factories or dealerships.

[Morfin]

Apropos only indirectly to this topic is the issue of how Chrysler shut down these dealerships -- not why a particular dealer was chosen, but how they went about it. In today's Detroit Free Press, there is a story about two Detroit-area dealers who were shut down. One of them, Colleen McDonald, was the one woman-owner of the Chrysler dealership in the area.
Mealey and Colleen McDonald, owner of Livonia Chrysler-Jeep and Century Dodge in Taylor, are among the 789 dealers who Chrysler is terminating with no compensation.

In a deposition taken Wednesday, McDonald said she planned to convert her Livonia store to a used car dealership, but she learned yesterday that the sales manager who would lead that effort is leaving to work with another new car dealer.

"I’m devastated. I feel like I’ve been raped and left for dead," McDonald said. "The customers I have are pretty upset with what is going on. Chrysler is not going to recapture these customers." Link (http://www.freep.com/article/20090529/BUSINESS01/90529028/Dealers++Chrysler+hasn+t+helped+with+inventories)

Putting aside the issue of the hyperbolic, inconsiderate rape analogy, there is just one comment someone left on the website article, and it made me laugh:
Hey Colleen, maybe if you didnt treat your customers like crap, or when someone brought a truck in there for a reapir it didnt take 8 weeks to fix it you might still be in buisiness. maybe if you didnt treat Chrysler like crap, they would have kept you around. You reap what you sow. Your guy left because he could not stand you either, He got a better offer then you ever gave him. and sorry to tell you but the customers are and will be back, just not with you, your employees, customers, and chrysler all do not like you. thats why your gone

I am trying to contact the commenter and recruit him for GMF. He'd fit in well.

[freegood]

2 things.

1. Thanks for bringing nothing to the table, repeating what everyone else has said, throwing math out the window and reitierating that the less than 1% chance is the obvious answer. Seriously. You are like Keith Olberman without the cool ESPN years.


If you want math, here are some numbers.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/news-flash-car-dealers-are-republicans.html

[Das Kahlua]

If you want math, here are some numbers.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/news-flash-car-dealers-are-republicans.html

Frankly, I don't care one way or the other, and until I see something more this is nothing more than people looking for a fight, but to be fair redsox posted those same numbers twice on the first page.

[freegood]

Oh yeah, he did.

/moves along

[IdiotBrain]

This is so misguided, half the problem is Chrysler is fronting cars for all these dealership and the dealerships just have to pay interest on the loans when they sell the cars. What happens when there's 5000 dealerships asking for cars... you have to ramp up your own costs and get paid for those costs somewhere down the road which is a huge drain on your own cash. Christ, these car dealerships are practically like pyramid schemes as long as demand and sales keep going up they can keep moving but as soon as things go wrong they are fucked. Chrysler has to do one of two things, either make the dealer buy the car outright or switch to a JIT ("Just In Time" for you accounting n00bs) inventory system in which the dealerships keep MODEST amounts of cars on hand and anything different than that you order and receive two weeks later.



You miss my point entirely.

Let them fuck up. Let them drive themselves into unheard of debt, and then let them and those who allowed them to operate in such a manner fail miserably.

That is the beauty of the free market. Shitty business practices cause you to be broke and out of business. What happens now when you have shitty business practices? Lets do a quick run through:

GM: Why is noone buying our cars?

American People: Your cars fucking suck, you don't offer shit for warranty, and I can get foreign cars cheaper.

GM: Did you hear something? Sheez it's hard to concentrate with that buzzing in my ears.

American People: Fuck this. Lets go to a Honda dealership.

GM: Were did everyone go? We're in massive debt and can't make any money. What ever shall we do?

American Gov't: HARK! GM is about to fail! We can't let the free market run its natural course! We must step up to save GM!

American People: Oh.... great.... so now the government is going to own that really shitty car company.... cuz.... you know.... when the government gets involved in business..... quality products always become top priority.

American Gov't: Yes! You're welcome people of America! Soon you'll be able to buy vehicles designed by people with absolutely no background in vehicle design!

GM: Oh shit, I think I'd rather be dead.

American Gov't: You have too many dealers, GM! Instead of letting the natural process of the free market take place.... LETS SHUT DOWN THE GUYS WHOS VIEWS DIFFER FROM US POLITICALLY.

GM: K... whatever.

American People: ".....Do you smell petroleum jelly? And why does my ass hurt?"

[Das Kahlua]

That is the beauty of the free market.

Except when the President of the United States is firing the CEO of GM, and the government owns over 70% of Chrysler, it's no longer a free market, so the traditional rules don't apply.

Sure, you don't have to buy GM or Chrysler cars, you can buy Honda or Acura or BMW, but if you don't buy American cars, and the American car companies continue to operate in the red, your taxes will be raised to bail them out.

Since your money is going to these companies one way or the other, you might as well buy American, since at least you'll get a car out of it (even if it's a POS).

[IdiotBrain]

The bailout should never have happened. The CEO should not have been fired.

The government should not own 1% of GM.




Wait the fuck up. Let me understand what you're saying.

From my understanding, capitalism depends on a free market. If you do not have a free market, you do not have capitalism. This administration has turned this particular facet into what you call something other than a free market.

So if this administration isn't a capitalist administration... what does that make them?

Socialist? Fascist? Communist?

I'm honestly not sure, but it's certainly not capitalist.


EDIT:

Possibly a "liberal progressive"?
Which is just fancy jewtalk for "socialist".