Can We Agree This is the Way to Fix Our Schools?

[redsox39]

I was reading the LA Times, and I came across a story that I would normally skip over. For some reason, I read it, and found it awesome. The Wussification of America starts in the school system, and it seems like a few inner-city schools are fixing it with Amazing results.

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2009-05/47206010.jpgDave Getzschman / For the Times
Students sit in detention at American Indian Public Charter school in Oakland for offenses ranging from getting up during class or skipping a problem on a homework assignment. Students who misbehave in the slightest must stay an hour after school; if they misbehave again in the same week, they get more detention and four hours of Saturday detention.

Reporting from Oakland -- Not many schools in California recruit teachers with language like this: "We are looking for hard working people who believe in free market capitalism. . . . Multicultural specialists, ultra liberal zealots and college-tainted oppression liberators need not apply."

That, it turns out, is just the beginning of the ways in which American Indian Public Charter (http://projects.latimes.com/schools/school/oakland/american-indian-public-charter/) and its two sibling schools spit in the eye of mainstream education. These small, no-frills, independent public schools in the hardscrabble flats of Oakland sometimes seem like creations of television's "Colbert Report." They mock liberal orthodoxy with such zeal that it can seem like a parody.





http://www.latimes.com/media/thumbnails/photogallery/2009-05/47205630-29182127.jpg (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-charter-pg,0,523176.photogallery) Photos: American Indian Public... (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-charter-pg,0,523176.photogallery)


http://www.latimes.com/media/thumbnails/graphic/2009-05/47209061-29213219.gif (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-053109-me-charter-g,0,6440850.graphic) Near the top (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-053109-me-charter-g,0,6440850.graphic)



School administrators take pride in their record of frequently firing teachers they consider to be underperforming. Unions are embraced with the same warmth accorded "self-esteem experts, panhandlers, drug dealers and those snapping turtles who refuse to put forth their best effort," to quote the school's website.

Students, almost all poor, wear uniforms and are subject to disciplinary procedures redolent of military school. One local school district official was horrified to learn that a girl was forced to clean the boys' restroom as punishment.

Conservatives, including columnist George Will, adore the American Indian schools, which they see as models of a "new paternalism" that could close the gap between the haves and have-nots in American education. Not surprisingly, many Bay Area liberals have a hard time embracing an educational philosophy that proudly proclaims that it "does not preach or subscribe to the demagoguery of tolerance."

It would be easy to dismiss American Indian as one of the nuttier offshoots of the fast-growing charter school movement, which allows schools to receive public funding but operate outside of day-to-day district oversight. But the schools command attention for one very simple reason: By standard measures, they are among the very best in California.

The Academic Performance Index, the central measuring tool for California schools, rates schools on a scale from zero to 1,000, based on standardized test scores. The state target is an API of 800. The statewide average for middle and high schools is below 750. For schools with mostly low-income students, it is around 650.

The oldest of the American Indian schools, the middle school known simply as American Indian Public Charter School, has an API of 967. Its two siblings -- American Indian Public Charter School II (also a middle school) and American Indian Public High School -- are not far behind.

Among the thousands of public schools in California, only four middle schools and three high schools score higher. None of them serves mostly underprivileged children.



http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-charter31-2009may31,0,6518091,full.story


So maybe treating our kids like they are retarded toddlers for 13 years ISN'T a good idea...

[Archangel]

You know why my old school used to constantly rank among the top five in Germany?

Because our teachers were allowed to beat their students. And all of my friends who did receive a smack upside the head or some such agree that they deserved everything they got.

Do not fuck with Jesuits.

[Gary_Busey]

My old school had a giant paddle in the principle's office. Bad kids got beat with it. We were not in the top 5 elementary schools in the U.S.

[hatepoppy]

My old school had a giant paddle in the principle's office. Bad kids got beat with it. We were not in the top 5 elementary schools in the U.S.
correct me if im wrong, arch, but im guessing 'capital punishment' isnt exactly the same everywhere you go. your elementary school may have swatted kids lil biutts w a paddle (mine did too), but saying kids got 'beaten' w a paddle is ridiculous. gettin smacked upside the head in front of the class could have slightly different results than being tapped on the ass light enough to avoid bullshit lawsuits.

[Gary_Busey]

Did you just call me 'Arch'?

[hatepoppy]

Did you just call me 'Arch'?
nah, man, i was replying to your post and was all 'hay arch, let me know if capital punishment was a joke in his school as it was in mine' so that i might correct myself should any revision be necessary.

[Morfin]

correct me if im wrong, arch, but im guessing 'capital punishment' isnt exactly the same everywhere you go. your elementary school may have swatted kids lil biutts w a paddle (mine did too), but saying kids got 'beaten' w a paddle is ridiculous. gettin smacked upside the head in front of the class could have slightly different results than being tapped on the ass light enough to avoid bullshit lawsuits.

*corporal

[hatepoppy]

*corporal
*faceplam!*

[Morfin]

*facepalm

[hatepoppy]

it was an ironic misspelling, methuselah.

[Trident]

Discipline is what little shits need. That's why Claydon spends his time traveling CA offering his services to kids from the wrong side of the tracks.

[Morfin]

Methusaleh? That punk-ass kid?

[ed92]

it affects schools, but generally we have a reduction in responsibility overall for kids growing up. everyone's a victim, so nobody holds themselves responsible for anything. parents included, who end up blaming schools because they don't do enough to help their kids.

[Morfin]

Here is a map from the Wikipedia entry on Corporal punishment. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Corporal_punishment_in_Europe.svg/300px-Corporal_punishment_in_Europe.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corporal_punishment_in_Europe.svg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corporal_punishment_in_Europe.svg)Legality of corporal punishment in Europe

I am too stupid to figure out how to copy and paste the color scheme.


Red -- Corporal punishment is legal
Blue -- Corporal punishment is legal at home, not at schools
Green -- All corporal punishment is illegal.

Arch may boast of his German Jesuits, but German parents can't even spank their kids. Pansies. They all need a good whoopin'.

[BIG PIZZLE]

I think this is great asside from the-- "We are looking for hard working people who believe in free market capitalism. . . . Multicultural specialists, ultra liberal zealots and college-tainted oppression liberators need not apply."

I think that this is unnecessary. You can ascribe to conservative ideals without demagoguery... right? But as far as teachers go, if they suck they should get fired. Also if students suck, there's about a 25% - 50% chance that their teacher sucks.

[redsox39]

Corporal Punishment is okay with me, but not really what the thread is about.

It is the school system.

1 Teacher all day.
Lots of homework
Teaching to the Test
Harsh Punishments (cleaning the bathrooms! 4 hour Saturday detentions for minor offenses)

I mean, some of us are parents, most of you will be parents one day, would you send your little snot faced kiddo to this school?

[redsox39]

I think this is great asside from the-- "We are looking for hard working people who believe in free market capitalism. . . . Multicultural specialists, ultra liberal zealots and college-tainted oppression liberators need not apply."

I think that this is unnecessary. You can ascribe to conservative ideals without demagoguery... right? But as far as teachers go, if they suck they should get fired. Also if students suck, there's about a 25% - 50% chance that their teacher sucks.

Yet for all that hard core language, they have taken the poor neighborhood minorites and sent them to Cornell, MIT, and other great schools. And they score in the top 5 against all other schools in the Nation.

So maybe there is something to that very hardcore stance. Obviously, you can't expect everyone to buy into it, but at least the kids know their bullshit isn't going to work here. No bitching about being poor, or black, or oppressed, just get it done because no one gives a shit. Just like in the real world.

[nothingman]

Corporal Punishment is okay with me, but not really what the thread is about.

It is the school system.

1 Teacher all day.
Lots of homework
Teaching to the Test
Harsh Punishments (cleaning the bathrooms! 4 hour Saturday detentions for minor offenses)

I mean, some of us are parents, most of you will be parents one day, would you send your little snot faced kiddo to this school?
Discipline and structure is what kids need, I was hyperly corporally punished repeatedly at school and at home, and I'm not talking about pussy-ass swats, and feel that I'm a better person for it. But cleaning restrooms and Saturday detention would have killed me. But then again, inner-city issues are kind of foreign to me, and you can't argue w/ results. So in conclusion I'm forgainst it!

[Snatch]

Corporal Punishment is okay with me, but not really what the thread is about.

It is the school system.

1 Teacher all day.
Lots of homework
Teaching to the Test
Harsh Punishments (cleaning the bathrooms! 4 hour Saturday detentions for minor offenses)

I mean, some of us are parents, most of you will be parents one day, would you send your little snot faced kiddo to this school?


How are the sports/extracurriculars?

[BIG PIZZLE]

Yet for all that hard core language, they have taken the poor neighborhood minorites and sent them to Cornell, MIT, and other great schools. And they score in the top 5 against all other schools in the Nation.

So maybe there is something to that very hardcore stance. Obviously, you can't expect everyone to buy into it, but at least the kids know their bullshit isn't going to work here. No bitching about being poor, or black, or oppressed, just get it done because no one gives a shit. Just like in the real world.

So you can't ascribe to conservative ideals without demagoguery. No surprise here. I can and I hope my kids will be able to. Like I said, I think what they are doing is great. But if the scool mocks other ways of thinking rather than simply doing their own thing with pride, I think that it's not the best way to achieve their goals in raising mature kids.

[WET HOT MESS]

Our schools have too many problems. The good teachers all end up teaching at university level because kids can be such little shits. From my experience, back in MS and in HS, whenever there was a decent teacher, they would get bumped up to teaching the Honors or the GT students (or whatever accelerated program they're in). Shit students can have shit teachers. Our schools got money for how well we performed, so while the students who were in accelerated programs were the pulling horse, the regular and review teachers gave their students all the answers so they don't mess up our curve. For standardized testings, the teachers stop teaching the important things and keep reiterating on the 5 or 6 points that we're gunna be tested on. Most of us didn't learn the subject we took, just how to pass it. Also, there is no way to standardize school enough to cater the needs of so many children. One of the problems in a melting pot like America is that many times, children adapt the behaviors their peers. Competitive children grow more competitive, the lesser competitive become comfortable with where they are and grow lackadaisical. That gap between the "smart kids" and the "dumb kids" is growing bigger every year. Americans in general like being comfortable...we don't like going the extra step. For the children looking up at their parents and the adults around them, who are fine with a little over 30k annually, that's aiming high enough for them. Many people who are intelligent enough to enter grad school never put that effort into it or follow through. Their kids look at them and say, you know, mom and dad are happy with just a bachelors degree and they get enough just to get by. Our schools emphasize teamwork and scare us into fearing plagerism, but at the same time, they don't do jack shit when they see us copying another student's homework. Mixed signals much? There's no way to fix this without completely restructuring school and blowing shit tons of money retraining teachers how to teach, but no money can make a teacher care about their students. For many teachers, being a teacher is a stable job, not something they are passionate about, so they don't put that effort either. Vicious cycle.
it affects schools, but generally we have a reduction in responsibility overall for kids growing up. everyone's a victim, so nobody holds themselves responsible for anything. parents included, who end up blaming schools because they don't do enough to help their kids.
Another good point. A lot of parents complain about their children learning or not learning, pinning all of the blame on schools and failing to recognize that they themselves are crucial to their child's development. Schools do not have authority on their students beyond the school hours and outside school property, so that they cannot enforce much. A lot of parents complain about all sorts of stupid shit to the school, and the schools can't always meet these demands, usually because no compromise can be met to appease all the parents. There's also no way to draw a line where the school/teacher/educator's responsibilities are, versus that of the student, and those of their parents. There's too many gray areas and too many points that nobody wants to touch up on.

[redsox39]

There's also no way to draw a line where the school/teacher/educator's responsibilities are, versus that of the student, and those of their parents. There's too many gray areas and too many points that nobody wants to touch up on.

Which is why instead of trying to please everyone, just do it the right way. Seriously, my wife is a teacher and they wasted 2 in-service days last year learning how to write "non-offensive" story problems. Really.
See if you have a problem like "Mike and Jack went to the store..." you are being racially and sexually insensitive because these are typically white males names. However, if you do a story problem about Pablo or Tyrone you are unfairly putting pressure on the minority students by singling them out.

Fuck people's "feelings" about this shit, that is retarded. If you are more concerned with the verbage of the problem than the actual problem, your school is doomed.

Get in there, make sure the kids know you aren't playing around, and get it done.

This story is taking poor kids in California and ranking tops in the nation. They are doing something right, and by right, I mean not doing ANY of the PC bullshit.

It is working. It has really always worked in the past. So why did we change it in the first place? Think about it...

[fuldstændigamok]

Corporal Punishment is okay with me, but not really what the thread is about.

It is the school system.

1 Teacher all day.
Lots of homework
Teaching to the Test
Harsh Punishments (cleaning the bathrooms! 4 hour Saturday detentions for minor offenses)

I mean, some of us are parents, most of you will be parents one day, would you send your little snot faced kiddo to this school?

Corporal punishment is okay with me *sigh on the limit that I can tap my kid's ass not too roughly, maybe smack the back of his head sometimes, but help me god if I ever see an other adult (teacher or whoever else) put a hand to my kid or any other kid that aren't theirs. This person will be on for a serious beat down.

[redsox39]

Corporal punishment is okay with me *sigh on the limit that I can tap my kid's ass not too roughly, maybe smack the back of his head sometimes, but help me god if I ever see an other adult (teacher or whoever else) put a hand to my kid or any other kid that aren't theirs. This person will be on for a serious beat down.

Fuck no, if my kids gets smart with a teacher, he/she should probably get smacked. But I don't think that is the first step here. Getting hard on the actual school work, not taking bullshit, and actually preparing kids for real life is the key here. So, Corporal punishment is probably not the way to go, since it will be a rare day when your boss busts out the stick to hit your for your performance.
But once again, not what this is about. Get your hard on for me out of here and go back to reading shitty comics.

For everyone else.
Not sucking the kid's dicks all the time is a good start. Trying to cater to everyones fucking little whim means no one gets anything done.

My favorite part of this is that they are doing it it with mostly poor minorities which the public education system has long let us know cannot be taught. Well, bullshit. If you insist on enforcing disipline on these kids that they are not getting at home, they respond very positively, and the test scores prove it.

If you can't see the benefits of this style of teaching, than you just have a huge political hard on, and really don't give a fuck about the kids or the Education system.

[Hanover Fist]

Yeah the whole corporal punishment part is probably the most minor part of the entire story, yet the most commented on. I doubt they rarely if ever even use it.
The main thing is that they teach a practical curriculum combined with strict discipline and high expectations. They majority of the pressure to succeed is by the other kids themselves, not the school. The exact opposite is what typically happens in poor minority neighborhoods. The kids see success in school as failure and there is pressure on kids to purposely self destruct themselves so as not to be seen as giving in to the man.
Cut all the bullshit classes out, teach kids the core things they need to succeed, and let them know you have high expectations of them.


My two youngest kids go to a public charter school with uniforms. They are pretty strict, although not as strict as this school. I had become fed up with the public schools and my wife and I decided it was time to either go Charter or start home schooling. It was probably the best decision we ever made with regards to our kids education, they are light years ahead of where they would have been otherwise. 3 more charter schools have opened here in the last 8 years and they have waiting lists to get in them.

[Das Kahlua]

I have some friends who are teachers in/around Philadelphia and (I swear to God) they teach kids to read and write not by teaching them to sound out words, but to memorize how words are spelled.

Our schools are failing because we have people who are bureaucrats, not educators, making policy for schools all over the country. Once you start politicizing education, statistics become more important than results, and then we wake up one day and we have our current situation or worse.

[Rafczy]

Build another fucking baseball stadium