we <3 teh jews

[BIG PIZZLE]

Why does the US suck so much jew cock?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/04/obama.speech.political/index.html

Speaking in Cairo, Egypt, the president took on the heated and controversial Palestinian-Israeli conflict by reaffirming that the U.S. favors a two-state solution and urging compromise between "two peoples with legitimate aspirations."

The United States, he said, "does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements."

Those Jewish settlements are spread throughout the Palestinian-controlled West Bank. Israel maintains the settlements are needed, while Palestinians say they are an obstacle to the peace process.

Calling America's "strong bond" with Israel "unbreakable," he said, "It is based upon cultural and historical ties and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied."

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, speaking to the Knesset Foreign Affairs Committee on Monday, said that a freeze of settlement activity is not reasonable. Read about reaction in the Middle East

In his speech Thursday, Obama noted the aspirations and grievances of both sides and cautioned, "But if we see this conflict only from one side or the other, then we will be blind to the truth." He exhorted Palestinians that "resistance through violence and killing is wrong and it does not succeed."

House Minority Leader John Boehner blasted Obama's approach to the Israeli-Palestinian question.

"He seemed to ... place equal blame on the Israelis and the Palestinians. I have concerns about this," the Ohio Republican said. "The Israelis have the right to defend themselves."

Boehner's Republican colleague, Rep. Mike Pence of Indiana, added that "there was a sense in here of a moral equivalency between those who are driving for a Palestinian state and the state of Israel."

Pence said the president should not be asking Israel to make another concession, but instead, "call on the Palestinians and their supporters across the Arab world to begin to see real concessions within the Palestinian movement. ... a real effort to defang Hamas, to disarm terrorists."

Obama said that the controversial Hamas movement -- which controls Gaza, near Egypt, and has significant support among Palestinians -- must end violence and recognize past agreements.

Marc Thiessen, a former Bush administration speechwriter, noted that Obama "announced a major shift in U.S. policy in the Holy Land."

"In 2002, President Bush declared in his Rose Garden address that America would only engage 'Palestinian leaders not compromised by terror,' " Thiessen wrote on National Review Online. "In Cairo today, Obama reversed this policy ... This is naïve and dangerous."

Republican strategist and CNN contributor Ed Rollins said Obama may have further soured relations with Israel. Watch more of Obama's speech in Egypt »

"I think the key thing here that he has to worry about is that he clearly drew the line and set some standards that the Israelis may not go along with," he said.

But another concern on the radar came this week from former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney -- an often-talked-about 2012 GOP presidential candidate.

Romney said that Obama needs to stop using foreign soil to apologize for U.S. relations, in what he calls an "tour of apology."

Romney took aim at Obama's plans to trim the missile defense budget a "grave miscalculation" that puts the nation at risk in the face of urgent threats like Iran and North Korea's nuclear ambitions.

Obama reiterated Thursday his desire to move forward with Iran on many issues, but said when it comes to nuclear weapons, "we have reached a decisive point."

"This is not simply about America's interests. It is about preventing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East that could lead this region and the world down a hugely dangerous path," he said.

Any nation, including Iran, "should have the right to access peaceful nuclear power if it complies with its responsibilities under the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty," the president added.

Other Republican opponents, meanwhile, decry Obama for seemingly apologizing for U.S. foreign policy in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Speaking to a mostly Muslim crowd, Obama said the United States entered Afghanistan by "necessity" and not "choice," he countered the stances of some "who "question or justify the events of 9/11."

He addressed the conflict in Iraq, calling it unlike Afghanistan "a war of choice that provoked strong differences in my country and around the world."

"Although I believe that the Iraqi people are ultimately better off without the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, I also believe that events in Iraq have reminded America of the need to use diplomacy and build international consensus to resolve our problems whenever possible," he said.

Thiessen was sharply critical of Obama on that point.

"He made no mention of democracy in discussing Afghanistan. He made no mention of democracy in discussing Iraq. He made no mention of the advance of freedom in the Middle East that has taken place in recent years, or any commitment to continue it," he wrote.

"Indeed, he said Iraq was a "war of choice" but then said a moment later that Iraq is better off without Saddam Hussein. Well, was it a good choice then?" he said.

And then came the contentious issue of closing Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention facility.

Speaking about prohibiting torture and the closing of Gitmo, Obama talked about working on "concrete actions to change course" and correct abuses in the war on terror.

"Just as America can never tolerate violence by extremists, we must never alter our principles. 9/11 was an enormous trauma to our country. The fear and anger that it provoked was understandable, but in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our traditions and our ideals," he said.

But that's one point of contention for Boehner -- along with Republicans and even some Democrats -- who do not want detainees on U.S. soil, and demand a clear plan going forward.

"When it comes to Guantanamo Bay, he again today made it clear he wants to close Guantanamo without having a plan in place for what to do with those detainees that are there," Boehner said.

But not all conservatives are so quick to blast Obama's speech.

Andrew Sullivan, a conservative who supports many of Obama's policies, said the speech touched on spiritual and human differences.

"At its heart, the speech sprang, it seemed to me, a spiritual conviction that human differences, if openly acknowledged, need not remain crippling," he wrote on his Atlantic.com blog. "It was a deeply Christian -- and not Christianist -- address; seeking to lead by example and patience rather than seeking to impose from certainty."

Thiessen, while mostly critical of what Obama had to say in his much-anticipated speech, did offer some reluctant praise.

"He took on the conspiracy theories about 9/11 ... And he pointed out that al Qaeda has 'killed people of different faiths, more than any other, they have killed Muslims.' All these are important points."

[Kerjack]

Become the pres and find out. They must brief the new guy right?

[Debo]

How come the joos don't <3 the GOP?

[riseabove!]

"killed people of different faiths, more than any other, they have killed Muslims" Is something that people don't hear enough about al Qaeda

[BIG PIZZLE]

How come the joos don't <3 the GOP?

B/c they'r ejews.

[Debo]

B/c they'r ejews.

Hmmmm. This doesn't sound like a healthy relationship.

[Menace2Sobriety]

Jews are big political contributors?

[Debo]

Jews are big political contributors?

Probably (Jooos have all of the money you know).

[Das Kahlua]

Black people hate the jews. Silly Pizz.

Just as Spike Lee.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Become the pres and find out. They must brief the new guy right?



America's strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied.


Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, and anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed - more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction - or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews - is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve.

[Das Kahlua]

Now, the flip side is I think that the United States and the West generally, we have to educate ourselves more effectively on Islam. And one of the points I want to make is, is that if you actually took the number of Muslims Americans, we'd be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world.

Now I'm really confused.

[Archangel]

"He seemed to ... place equal blame on the Israelis and the Palestinians. I have concerns about this," the Ohio Republican said.


Why? Republicans allergic to the truth?

[Das Kahlua]

Why? Republicans allergic to the truth?

It depends upon what said 'truth' is. There definitely is a sense amongst some members of the American left that the Israelis 'have it coming' every time a suicide bomber takes out a bus or restaurant.

Are they completely guilt-free? No, no one or country is perfect. But the fact that Israel has made mistakes in the past doesn't automatically make the Palestinians the victims, either.

[redsox39]

Jews are big political contributors?

Probably (Jooos have all of the money you know).

Lol, Jews don't give away their money! They're JEWS!!!

[Morfin]

I don't read that speech as "sucking Israel cock." Taking a position that both sides are to blame seems to be telling Israel to STFU. Netanyahoooooo obviously wasn't pleased.

I think the better part of the speech was describing going into Afghanistan as a "necessity," and going into Iraq as a "war of choice."

Based on Romney's comments and the comments of the two Republican congressmen, echoing Cheney's comments of the past two months about how Obama's actions are "dangerous," I get the impression that they are hoping there is some sort of attack against the U.S. so that they can jump up and down and shout, "I told you so!!!"

[BIG PIZZLE]

Totally. That's their angle. The ironic thing is Obama hasnt touched most of the homeland security dept. Not much has changed with regard to US security.

[Rover]

You're a moron if you think that Cheney and Romney are hoping for a terrorist act against the United States.

[Morfin]

Then I'm a moron.

[BIG PIZZLE]

You're a moron if you think that Cheney and Romney are hoping for a terrorist act against the United States.

I wouldnt say they are hoping. I would say they are laying the ground work for cold politicization.

[redsox39]

I wouldnt say they are hoping. I would say they are laying the ground work for cold politicization.


Kinda like the left Celebrating each US death in Iraq because it made Bush look bad...

(like they needed extra ammo)

[Rover]

Then I'm a moron.Without objection, so ordered.

I wouldnt say they are hoping. I would say they are laying the ground work for cold politicization.Okay. Cold politicization. But that's no different than the Democrats' strategy on the Iraq War. Where they coldly used soldiers' deaths to back their position. Or, as some would say, were hoping more Americans would die so that their 'blood and treasure' arugment would gain momentum.

What is Cheney supposed to do? Do a complete 180 and say that Obama's policies will work? He's spent the last 35 years in government promoting policies in one direction and overnight he's supposed to say, "Whoops, my bad, these things Obama's doing, well, they'll work, too."

[redsox39]

What is Cheney supposed to do? Do a complete 180 and say that Obama's policies will work? He's spent the last 35 years in government promoting policies in one direction and overnight he's supposed to say, "Whoops, my bad, these things Obama's doing, well, they'll work, too."


Yes, Because Neo Obama is "the One".

[IdiotBrain]

As soon as some of the Muslim nations around Israel decide to give Israel some extra land, in exchange for peace, only to have Israel launch rockets into those countries indiscriminately, and support the terror actions of other Jewish nations against those Muslim countries......

Wait am I missing something here?

[redsox39]

As soon as some of the Muslim nations around Israel decide to give Israel some extra land, in exchange for peace, only to have Israel launch rockets into those countries indiscriminately, and support the terror actions of other Jewish nations against those Muslim countries......

Wait am I missing something here?

Oh yeah!!!! Well, Israeli Tanks have been running over the same 3 Palistinian babies for 30 years you asshole!

[BIG PIZZLE]

Without objection, so ordered.

Okay. Cold politicization. But that's no different than the Democrats' strategy on the Iraq War. Where they coldly used soldiers' deaths to back their position. Or, as some would say, were hoping more Americans would die so that their 'blood and treasure' arugment would gain momentum.

What is Cheney supposed to do? Do a complete 180 and say that Obama's policies will work? He's spent the last 35 years in government promoting policies in one direction and overnight he's supposed to say, &quot;Whoops, my bad, these things Obama's doing, well, they'll work, too.&quot;

I dont think the democrats (I'm sure Obama never has--although a lot of people have put those words in his mouth) ever said that the war in Iraq is a failure. And I'm certain that he never cheered for the death of american soldiers. He has criticized the war and rightfully so but I think he picked his words carefully. What bothers me most about Cheney is that, like I said, Obama hasnt really changed much of the US national security scheme. OK he stopped torture and he wants to close down gitmo but I'm not sure how these things compromise US security. Even cheny will admit that only a handfull of detainees were tortured and it seems that 1) we didnt get much out of it and 2) some were tortured to find a link between Iraq and 9/11 which is hardly in the interest of american safety. What also really bothers me is that during the bush years cheny was the hardest on anyone that criticized the president saying that merely criticizing bush undermines national security. Now here he is on the other side of the coin and he's arguably the most vocal critic on the president notwithstanding the fact that reall not much has changed in terms of national security. Aside from torture and gitmo what else has changed?

[Nosebuckle]

I'd hardly consider what he said an apology. It would mean something if he would, you know, bring our troops home.

[Debo]

I dont think the democrats (I'm sure Obama never has--although a lot of people have put those words in his mouth) ever said that the war in Iraq is a failure. And I'm certain that he never cheered for the death of american soldiers. He has criticized the war and rightfully so but I think he picked his words carefully. What bothers me most about Cheney is that, like I said, Obama hasnt really changed much of the US national security scheme. OK he stopped torture and he wants to close down gitmo but I'm not sure how these things compromise US security. Even cheny will admit that only a handfull of detainees were tortured and it seems that 1) we didnt get much out of it and 2) some were tortured to find a link between Iraq and 9/11 which is hardly in the interest of american safety. What also really bothers me is that during the bush years cheny was the hardest on anyone that criticized the president saying that merely criticizing bush undermines national security. Now here he is on the other side of the coin and he's arguably the most vocal critic on the president notwithstanding the fact that reall not much has changed in terms of national security. Aside from torture and gitmo what else has changed?

Well, Reid said that the "Iraq Was is lost" (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18227928/).

Obama did say this:

Surge strategy has made a difference in Iraq but failed

Q: Is Petraeus correct when he says that the troop increase is bringing security to Iraq?A: There is no doubt that because we put American troops in Iraq, more American troops in Iraq, that they are doing a magnificent job. They are making a difference in certain neighborhoods. But the overall strategy is failed because we have not seen any change in behavior among Iraq’s political leaders. That is the essence of what we should be trying to do in Iraq. That’s why I’m going to bring this war to a close. That’s why we can get our combat troops out within 16 months and have to initiate the kind of regional diplomacy, not just talking to our friends, but talking to our enemies, like Iran and Syria, to try to stabilize the situation there. This year, we saw the highest casualty rates for American troops in Iraq since this war started. The same is true in Afghanistan. If we have seen a lowering violence rate, that’s only compared to earlier this year. We’re back to where we started back in 2006.
Source: 2007 Democratic debate in Las Vegas, Nevada (http://www.ontheissues.org/2007_Dems_Las_Vegas.htm) Nov 15, 2007

Here (http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_War_+_Peace.htm) is a list of a ton more of his Iraq quotes.

A.) We never tortured anyone (Not to rehash this debate again, but waterboarding isn't illegal or torture).

B.) Cheney and others have stated that waterboarding KSM and the other two guys whose names can't spell lead to the prevention of terrorist attacks. We, the public, could judge for ourselves whether or not the information obtained from waterboarding these three was useful if Obama declassified the CIA memos that describe the intel obtained. Obama has yet to declassify these memos and I am willing to bet that he never does.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Harry Ried is a fucking retard. I would take Cheny over ried any day. Regardless of whether waterboarding is torture, I do not think that stopping it as a practice has caused a giant breach of national security the likes of whick cheney is skwaking about. Cheney knows that those memos would never be declassified, that's why he asked for them to be (same as why Pelosi asked for her notes to be declassified). We're talking about dick cheney the guy that had his house pixleated on google maps so him asking for somethign to be declassified has to be taken with a grain of salt. Also...Aside from torture and gitmo what else has changed?Unless you can point to specific decisions that have reversed policy on homeland security, I dont think Cheney's crying is worth shit.Finally, how can you support Cheney if ...during the bush years cheny was the hardest on anyone that criticized the president saying that merely criticizing bush undermines national security. Now here he is on the other side of the coin and he's arguably the most vocal critic on the president notwithstanding the fact that reall not much has changed in terms of national security. Aside from torture and gitmo what else has changed?Seems to me by his own logic, he's on Al Queda's side.

[Whiffleball]

I thought it was a pretty good speech, certainly a step in the right direction. And it's certainly a breath of fresh air to have a U.S. president take a more diplomatic and conciliatory tone with the Middle East rather than the man-child-like jingoistic and xenophobic one we've had for the last eight years. But there is still a planet-sized gulf between Obama's words and actions.

Pretty rich to talk about innocents dying in Darfur, and civilians being killed on September 11th in light of our two continuing wars with/occupations of Muslim countries, both of which have been characterized by repeated and massive killing of civilians by American soldiers and contractors. The commitment to close Gitmo might actually mean something if Obama hadn't already shown he plans to have similar prisons elsewhere (Bagram, etc).

I do admire him for having the stones to stand up and say the U.S. is not an empire, though.

[Whiffleball]

BTW fuck Israel. Fuck 'em. Just fuck 'em, they are a bad country.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1243346511682&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"The American demand to prevent natural growth is unreasonable, and brings to mind Pharaoh who said: Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river," Science Minister and Habayit Hayehudi head Daniel Herschkowitz said Sunday, referring to US President Barack Obama's demand to freeze all settlement activity, even that ensuing from natural growth.

Speaking ahead of the weekly cabinet meeting, mathematician Herschkowitz furthered his point with a simple equation. "If there is a family that expands from one child to four or five, what should we tell them - to ship the children off to Petah Tikva? This is an unacceptable demand, even if it comes from the Americans, and Israel should reject it decisively," he affirmed.

Interior Minister Eli Yishai said, "The American demand to freeze construction means expulsion for young people living in large locales. I hope the US administration understands that. If not, I don't want to be an apocalyptic prophet saying we're facing struggle and confrontation. The concessions they're demanding of us are a security impediment we cannot withstand."

Information and Diaspora Minister Yuli Edelstein chose a positive perspective on the dispute threatening an Israeli-American rift.

"The recent days prove what luck we have that it is [Prime Minister Binyamin] Netanyahu's government conducting talks on West Bank natural growth and construction in Jerusalem," he said. "Just imagine someone else, he would have led us to an entanglement lasting generations."

"We aren't headed for a confrontation with the White House, but rather for understandings, and Netanyahu's visit there proved it. President Obama is a friend of Israel, and I'm sure we can resolve the disagreements," Edelstein added.

Welfare and Social Services Minister Isaac Herzog of the Labor party stressed the importance in preventing a head-on collision with Obama.

"The current American administration sees things differently than the last two presidents did. Construction is being undertaken around Jerusalem according to understandings with previous administrations. Israel wants very much to reach understandings, and Defense Minister Ehud Barak's upcoming trip to Washington proves it," Herzog said.

It seems to me that one of the enduring obstacles to Israel actually doing the right thing for once is that they insist on viewing all their modern conflict through the lens of the legends about their ancient conflicts, which of course have fuck all to do with how modern nation-states and other entities actually act. Bibi's aides' recent invocation of Amalek in description of the "existential Iranian threat (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/opinion/17goldberg.html)" seems a fair additional example of how incredibly unhelpful this trend is.

[Das Kahlua]

BTW fuck Israel. Fuck 'em. Just fuck 'em, they are a bad country.

It seems to me that one of the enduring obstacles to Israel actually doing the right thing for once is that they insist on viewing all their modern conflict through the lens of the legends about their ancient conflicts, which of course have fuck all to do with how modern nation-states and other entities actually act. Bibi's aides' recent invocation of Amalek in description of the "existential Iranian threat (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/opinion/17goldberg.html)" seems a fair additional example of how incredibly unhelpful this trend is.

You're an idiot. The fact that Hamas keeps firing rockets and sending downs syndrome suicide bombers into Israel is why Israel remains aggressive towards Palestine. But that's what the Palestinians get for electing a terrorist group to run their government, I guess.

[redsox39]

I get it, Israel isn't the nicest country in the world. But they are the nicest country in the middle east. Seriously, you are calling them out all the time when they are surrounded by dictators, terrorists, slave owners, and Jew haters.

[Das Kahlua]

I get it, Israel isn't the nicest country in the world. But they are the nicest country in the middle east. Seriously, you are calling them out all the time when they are surrounded by dictators, terrorists, slave owners, and Jew haters.

IMO, Israel is probably at the top of the list of the nicest, most patient country on the planet. If Mexico or Canada started blowing up shopping malls or launching rockets at major US cities, we would have wiped those countries off the map a long time ago, and likely with UN and/or NATO support.

Does Israel launch military strikes into Palestine? Sure, but only measured attacks against strategic targets, and only after being attacked first. Israel has tried time and again to meet at the bargaining table with virtually every Middle Eastern country, and has gone so far as to give back land and allow Palestinians to both live peacefully within Israel, and travel to and from Israeli territory with ease.

Personally, if I were in charge of the Israeli military, I would rain such fire down upon any country or group foolish enough to attack that groups would either think twice about doing the same in the future, or eliminated if they tried. But that's just me.

[Pox]

You're an idiot. The fact that Hamas keeps firing rockets and sending downs syndrome suicide bombers into Israel is why Israel remains aggressive towards Palestine. But that's what the Palestinians get for electing a terrorist group to run their government, I guess.

Well, Mossad helped establish Hamas in order to undermine the PLO. Its their Frankenstein as much as anyones. The Palestinians might have elected them, but like everything to do with this situation, theres plenty of blame to go around.

[Das Kahlua]

Well, Mossad helped establish Hamas in order to undermine the PLO. Its their Frankenstein as much as anyones. The Palestinians might have elected them, but like everything to do with this situation, theres plenty of blame to go around.

They didn't necessarily 'establish' them, they supported the rival to their enemy, the PLO. Keep in mind, the PLO also had a highly violent terrorist side, so it wasn't like they were bringing down the Red Cross.

I've said this many times before, people are fundamentally flawed, so anything they create (religion, government, anything) will also be flawed. Israel isn't perfect, but they aren't anywhere near the same as Hamas or the PLO.

They are fighting for their survival, not the domination and extinction of another group. Therein lies the difference.

[Feng]

I have always failed to see how or why Israel needs to give up land that it won in multiple wars. Furthermore, can anyone else tell me about a losing nation or kingdom in a war that is allowed to dictate the terms of the victory?

In any case, Israel is no saint in the community nations, however I would like to point out that Israeli Arabs enjoy a far better standard of living and opportunity in Israel, than say a Jew living in Saudi Arabia..... oh wait, there are no Jews in Saudi Arabia.

Ultimately Israel is a nation of laws, and a secular nation unlike say, Iran.

[Das Kahlua]

I have always failed to see how or why Israel needs to give up land that it won in multiple wars. Furthermore, can anyone else tell me about a losing nation or kingdom in a war that is allowed to dictate the terms of the victory?

In any case, Israel is no saint in the community nations, however I would like to point out that Israeli Arabs enjoy a far better standard of living and opportunity in Israel, than say a Jew living in Saudi Arabia..... oh wait, there are no Jews in Saudi Arabia.

Ultimately Israel is a nation of laws, and a secular nation unlike say, Iran.

Israel is, and has been, under tremendous international pressure to bow to Palestinian demands. Unfortunately the US has responded to said pressure, and has begun adding to the dog pile. Israel has had no choice, no matter how big of a failure each 'compromise' has been.

[Feng]

Israel is, and has been, under tremendous international pressure to bow to Palestinian demands. Unfortunately the US has responded to said pressure, and has begun adding to the dog pile. Israel has had no choice, no matter how big of a failure each 'compromise' has been.

Therein lies the absolute stupidity of this situation. For instance, the United States invaded Okinawa, we lost thousands of Marines doing it, good luck getting us to leave our base there, even though the locals and Japanese nationalists have been calling for such a thing for decades.

Israel won multiple wars, they routed multiple, and often in some cases superior equipped armies. Therefore, they get to keep what they won.

Oh well, Israel is not going anywhere, no matter how hard the Arabs try. With the recent elections in Lebanon it would seem that Iran's and Syria's influence may be on the decline. Only time will tell.

[Das Kahlua]

Therein lies the absolute stupidity of this situation. For instance, the United States invaded Okinawa, we lost thousands of Marines doing it, good luck getting us to leave our base there, even though the locals and Japanese nationalists have been calling for such a thing for decades.

Israel won multiple wars, they routed multiple, and often in some cases superior equipped armies. Therefore, they get to keep what they won.

Oh well, Israel is not going anywhere, no matter how hard the Arabs try. With the recent elections in Lebanon it would seem that Iran's and Syria's influence may be on the decline. Only time will tell.

The really ironic aspect is that in 1949, at the time of the partition, there was no 'Palestine,' at least not as a state. That territory was divided up between Egypt and Jordan. The irony is that the only 2 countries in the region that acknowledge the right of Israel to statehood are Jordan and Egypt.

[Pox]

They didn't necessarily 'establish' them, they supported the rival to their enemy, the PLO. Keep in mind, the PLO also had a highly violent terrorist side, so it wasn't like they were bringing down the Red Cross.

I don't disagree with this, but its sort of a case of the victors writing the history books. Israel was basically founded by Zionist terrorists. I'm not sure, but I doubt the PLO ever carried out a bigger bombing that the King David Hotel, and the Israelis still celebrate that to this day. The guy who planned it became prime minister. The PLO might have been bad, but the Jews were just as rough a generation before when they wanted THEIR independence.

I've said this many times before, people are fundamentally flawed, so anything they create (religion, government, anything) will also be flawed. Israel isn't perfect, but they aren't anywhere near the same as Hamas or the PLO.

I'll give you that the Israeli government isn't anything like Hamas, but I don't think the PLO is either. The PLO, for all its faults, was a nationalist political organization. They were Palestine's version of the Free officers, not the Muslim brotherhood, and that's a HUGE difference. If someone had tried to organize Palestinians around suicide bombings and Islamic Jihad in the 60's, they would have been laughed out of the West Bank.

I wasn't pointing out Israel's hand in Hamas' rise just to dump on them. I think that there's no chance in settling the Palestinian question until they are represented by nationalists instead of Jihadists, and I think Israel needs to play a part in this.


They are fighting for their survival, not the domination and extinction of another group. Therein lies the difference.

The Israeli government, maybe, but there is a plenty of people in the settler movement that are every bit the zealots and extremists that Hamas is.

[Feng]

I have read a great deal about the Israel Arab wars of the 60s and 70s and what is amazing to me is the extremely impressive weapons systems the arabs got from the soviets. They pretty much had the cream of the crop from the soviets, the US did of course supply arms to Israel but no where near the level of the Soviets. For all of their impressive armor and hardware they were completely incapable of using this hardware properly, they should have been able to roll over Israel and turn it into a modern day Carthage, but the Israelis were just too damn good.

[Das Kahlua]

I don't disagree with this, but its sort of a case of the victors writing the history books. Israel was basically founded by Zionist terrorists. I'm not sure, but I doubt the PLO ever carried out a bigger bombing that the King David Hotel, and the Israelis still celebrate that to this day. The guy who planned it became prime minister. The PLO might have been bad, but the Jews were just as rough a generation before when they wanted THEIR independence.

You need to check your history. The state of Israel was formed out of existing Jewish settlements, it wasn't an organized effort to force out the Arabs as it is made to appear. For decades before the partition, these groups were able to live in peace, it was only once it was made official that organized groups of the Muslim countries in the region tried to force them out.

I'll give you that the Israeli government isn't anything like Hamas, but I don't think the PLO is either. The PLO, for all its faults, was a nationalist political organization. They were Palestine's version of the Free officers, not the Muslim brotherhood, and that's a HUGE difference. If someone had tried to organize Palestinians around suicide bombings and Islamic Jihad in the 60's, they would have been laughed out of the West Bank.

The PLO was led by Yassar Arafat who was responsible for all sorts or terrorist acts, including hijacking and blowing up planes.

It's not a coincidence that the moment that Arafat walked away from the negotiation table at the Camp David Accords (where he was offered as a peace agreement everything he'd asked for) that the attacks resumed immediately thereafter. He was behind all of that shit from that start, just as Hamas is now.

I wasn't pointing out Israel's hand in Hamas' rise just to dump on them. I think that there's no chance in settling the Palestinian question until they are represented by nationalists instead of Jihadists, and I think Israel needs to play a part in this.

How? The minute that Israel says they want 'A', the Arabs will support 'B'. No pro-Israeli Palestinian government has a chance of being elected to office.

The Israeli government, maybe, but there is a plenty of people in the settler movement that are every bit the zealots and extremists that Hamas is.

Really? There are Jewish settlers blowing up school buses full of children, using pregnant women or women with downs syndrome as suicide bombers and launching rockets into civilian Palestinian cities? That's hyperbole crap, and you know it.

[Feng]

And to think Arafat got the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Das Kahlua]

And to think Arafat got the Nobel Peace Prize.

So did Al Gore. Shows how much it's worth these days.

[Pox]

You need to check your history. The state of Israel was formed out of existing Jewish settlements, it wasn't an organized effort to force out the Arabs as it is made to appear. For decades before the partition, these groups were able to live in peace, it was only once it was made official that organized groups of the Muslim countries in the region tried to force them out.



The PLO was led by Yassar Arafat who was responsible for all sorts or terrorist acts, including hijacking and blowing up planes.

It's not a coincidence that the moment that Arafat walked away from the negotiation table at the Camp David Accords (where he was offered as a peace agreement everything he'd asked for) that the attacks resumed immediately thereafter. He was behind all of that shit from that start, just as Hamas is now.



How? The minute that Israel says they want 'A', the Arabs will support 'B'. No pro-Israeli Palestinian government has a chance of being elected to office.



Really? There are Jewish settlers blowing up school buses full of children, using pregnant women or women with downs syndrome as suicide bombers and launching rockets into civilian Palestinian cities? That's hyperbole crap, and you know it.

Well, it looks like this is become a typical Arab v Israeli fuk5e55ion. Since I think they're both full of shit, let me leave it at this.

Firstly, you accuse me of having my history wrong, but I don't see which part of my post you're disagreeing with. The Jews killed the British to get their country, and the Palestinians tried killing the Jews to get their country. It didn't work, and they spent a couple decades looking like assholes instead of trying a nonviolent approach that might have worked, but probably wouldn't have.

Secondly, I'm not asking for "pro-Israel" representaion of Palestine. Thats silly. When was the last time Israel had a "pro-Palestinian" government? I'd like to see a non-Islamicist party that is willing to go back to the table on a two state solution. Thats it.

Thirdly, my comparison had nothing to do with their means and everything to do with their objectives. There are settler groups that oppose a two state solution, are into killing Arabs, and base their actions on their religion. Arabs kill Jews, Jews kill Arabs, and everybody else links one side's sob story in pointless threads like this one.

Are Hamas' methods worse? Yea, they are. But dead is dead, really.

[redsox39]

Are Hamas' methods worse? Yea, they are. But dead is dead, really.

And this is the final logic all Anti-Israel people use. If they were to have a cease fire right now, today, who would break it?

How many times does Israel have to give up a chunk of land, apologize for defending themselves, and still get attacked the next month?

Just admit it, you hate Israel because the US supports them, and it is the hip thing to do. You probably wear Che' T-shirts around town like a douchebag, too.

[Das Kahlua]

Well, it looks like this is become a typical Arab v Israeli fuk5e55ion. Since I think they're both full of shit, let me leave it at this.

Firstly, you accuse me of having my history wrong, but I don't see which part of my post you're disagreeing with. The Jews killed the British to get their country, and the Palestinians tried killing the Jews to get their country. It didn't work, and they spent a couple decades looking like assholes instead of trying a nonviolent approach that might have worked, but probably wouldn't have.

You called them 'Zionist terrorists,' and equated what the Israelis have done with what Hamas has done, you said it was no different. I'm disagreeing strongly with that interpretation, especially since the facts don't back you up.

Secondly, I'm not asking for "pro-Israel" representaion of Palestine. Thats silly. When was the last time Israel had a "pro-Palestinian" government? I'd like to see a non-Islamicist party that is willing to go back to the table on a two state solution. Thats it.

Maybe not pro-Palestinian, but the Israelis have won ever major conflict in their region, and yet still allow Palestinians to live peacefully amongst them. Do you think the Palestinians would have granted the Jews the same right if Israel had lost any of those wars? For that matter, Israel has already tried 'land for peace,' offered the PLO and Hamas virtually everything they were asking for, met for the Camp David Accords and sign the Oslo Accords, the last of which got Yitzhak Rabin assassinated by a fellow Jew for being too soft on the Palestinians. What was the result of all of this? More suicide bombers and rocket attacks.

Hamas' charter states that they are dedicated to wiping out Israel. Maybe that should be changed before Israel is expected to make any more compromises.

Thirdly, my comparison had nothing to do with their means and everything to do with their objectives. There are settler groups that oppose a two state solution, are into killing Arabs, and base their actions on their religion. Arabs kill Jews, Jews kill Arabs, and everybody else links one side's sob story in pointless threads like this one.

I would love to see any story of roving gangs of settlers attacking Palestinians, especially civilians. The Israeli military will respond to terrorist attacks, I have seen or heard of no report of vigilante Jewish violence against Arabs, but if I'm wrong please correct me.

Are Hamas' methods worse? Yea, they are. But dead is dead, really.

Wow, that is simply stunning in its ignorance. Yes, 'dead is dead,' but it's lunacy to group all deaths together under one umbrella as if all causes are equal.

[Feng]

I would love to see any story of roving gangs of settlers attacking Palestinians, especially civilians. The Israeli military will respond to terrorist attacks, I have seen or heard of no report of vigilante Jewish violence against Arabs, but if I'm wrong please correct me.

To be fair, there have been some rather awful incidents with jewish zealots attacking arabs (I feel they are no better than arab/muslim zealots). There was that incident in the 90s where a jewish man went into that mosque with an ak-47 and shot and killed what... 15 people? Mind you, this and other such events pale in comparison to the arab suicide bombings of restaurants, school buses, etc. I mean, for god sakes, when your police force has a whole system of clean up, and action procedures in place ready to go at a moments notice to respond to such bombings that suggests a lot to me.

The wall that Israel has created is not a terrific thing, and will only increase tension, and in some areas it looks like an absolute land grab. However, I can understand why they built it, and isn't it interesting that the number of suicide bombings plummeted when those series of walls went up.

[Das Kahlua]

To be fair, there have been some rather awful incidents with jewish zealots attacking arabs (I feel they are no better than arab/muslim zealots). There was that incident in the 90s where a jewish man went into that mosque with an ak-47 and shot and killed what... 15 people? Mind you, this and other such events pale in comparison to the arab suicide bombings of restaurants, school buses, etc. I mean, for god sakes, when your police force has a whole system of clean up, and action procedures in place ready to go at a moments notice to respond to such bombings that suggests a lot to me.

Sure, but I'm not going to play Pox's game of saying that Israeli violence against Arabs and Arab violence against Israel is somehow equal. I'm sorry, but one or two renegade Jews does not cancel out a systematic effort to wipe Israel off the map.

The wall that Israel has created is not a terrific thing, and will only increase tension, and in some areas it looks like an absolute land grab. However, I can understand why they built it, and isn't it interesting that the number of suicide bombings plummeted when those series of walls went up.

The whole situation in the Middle East is a mess. It's not surprising that any solution will have its faults, but if any of these have even some success, they should be strongly considered.

[Pox]

You called them 'Zionist terrorists,' and equated what the Israelis have done with what Hamas has done, you said it was no different. I'm disagreeing strongly with that interpretation, especially since the facts don't back you up.

What? Look 10 posts up.

I'll give you that the Israeli government isn't anything like Hamas,

Are you even reading my posts, or do you just assume that everyone who isn't in love with Israel is some sort of prisonplanet sycophant?

I've never equated the Israeli government with Hamas, or even the PLO for that matter. Actually, my main point in the first place is that Hamas is a bunch of nutsacks, and that its Israels mistake for boosting them in the first place.

As for the "Zionist Terrorists" part, yes. Zionist terrorism played a large part in its founding. What would you call Irgun? Freedom fighters?

[Pox]

Just admit it, you hate Israel because the US supports them, and it is the hip thing to do. You probably wear Che' T-shirts around town like a douchebag, too.

What? You know dick about me. Stop using your hands to write shitty posts and start using them for something you're good at, like punching your wife.

[Das Kahlua]

What? You know dick about me. Stop using your hands to write shitty posts and start using them for something you're good at, like punching your wife.

Wait, redsox is a wife beater?!

[redsox39]

Wait, redsox is a wife beater?!


Apparently, says the Jew Hateing Hipster with the Che T-shirt on at Starbucks.

[Pox]

Apparently, says the Jew Hateing Hipster with the Che T-shirt on at Starbucks.
The founder and CEO of Starbucks are Jewish, or at least have Jewish sounding names according to Wikipedia.

You need to educate yourself on the ZOG, you poor fool.

[Feng]

Wait, redsox is a wife beater?!

I could believe this statement.

[redsox39]

The founder and CEO of Starbucks are Jewish, or at least have Jewish sounding names according to Wikipedia.

You need to educate yourself on the ZOG, you poor fool.


No, you need to pick up when someone is calling you a hypocrite.