This Is why the World Hates You, or: Patriotism for Dummies.

[Archangel]

Oh Jesus fucking Christ.

Here I am, minding my own business, when I come across tockit's avatar.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2d6wd34.jpg


If this is reflective of more than just his personal retardedness and represents a larger part of America, then we have a serious problem.

I mean, what kind of uncritical, unthinking, blind, idiotic bullshit is this? Real presidents? What exactly do real presidents do, then, when their country has laden upon itself a heavy burden? Tell the wronged to go fuck themselves? Ignore the elephant in the room? Generally act like the nine year old bully half the world perceives America at its worst to be? Are these the same people for whom real Americans don't read books, and real men don't know where Paris is?

Let's dissect this. The assumption that a head of state cannot, under any circumstances, apologise for anything that said state has done can only work if you believe either or both of these things:

- That a) your country is infallible, and that everything it does is eo ipso right and just;

- or that b) other countries are so beneath consideration that an apology to them represents an abasement on the part of your own.

Both of those trains of thought are symptoms of totalitarianism. Ironically, the notion that the state is never wrong is the basic tenet of Soviet communism, while more worryingly, the latter notion is a cornerstone of German fascism. Forgive me if seeing such seeds sown in the world's most powerful country worries me a bit. To think that you can do anything you please, and are so above everyone else that to apologise to the wronged afterwards is not even an option, is pretty much the most dangerous thought in the world. Hell, two and a half billion Asians are still waiting for Japan to say "we're sorry", and Japan's enduring inability to do so will one day spell its downfall - it's the same spirit which caused the Rape of Nanking that now lets them say in their history books that Japan was only trying to "civilise" Asia - the obvious irony that China and Korea were civilised when Japan was still wilderness notwithstanding - and I shudder at the thought that it's the same spirit that brought forth Haditha which is responsible for such retardedness as we see above. So in tockit's world, no German president or chancellor should have ever apologised for the Holocaust - or is Germany one of those insignificant foreign countries which can stoop so low as to actually apologise? Clinton refused to apologise for the Vietnam War - a slap in the face to all of Asia, but apparently, that makes him a "real" president.

Seriously, just how much more obvious do you want your inferiority complex to be? Freud would have a field day with this; are you so insecure that not only do you bully others, you also have to tear down the one guy who actually and rightly feels bad for having done so?

How about "real presidents don't invade countries and murder people to show their daddy that they have a big dick, too", huh? But that is okay with these people. Beating up the smaller kids is cool, while facing up your mistakes is for pussies. I love how some people appear to think that foreign policy should be done by third graders, or by presidents with the intellectual capacities thereof.

It takes a man, a real man, a statesman even, to realise and reflect upon mistakes, and apologise for them on behalf of an entire nation. Not sheepishly, not meekly, but knowing that it is one's own pride which commands one to do so; knowing that the first sign of pride is awarenness of your shortcomings. Knowing that real patriots first of all question what is wrong with their country, and try to fix it. Uncritical patriotism isn't patriotism, it's that simple - the Dixie Chicks are apparently more patriotic that quite a few of their countrymen.

Simply put, real men think. It's what makes us men, after all.

Any illiterate subhuman can yell "U-S-A! U-S-A!", and apparently, quite a few do.





Or maybe it is just tockit. In which case, disregard everything I just said.

[hatepoppy]

arch? more like starch.

[hatepoppy]

as in bland, tasteless, and carby.

[fuldstændigamok]

Wait? Tockit is a retard? Yeah, that's fresh news.

[hatepoppy]

more like lockit.

[Archangel]

arch? more like starch.

Starch comes from the German "Stärke", which means strength.

[hatepoppy]

Starch comes from the German "Stärke", which means strength.
and here i thought it was from the old english 'stercan' for 'to stiffen'.

[Archangel]

and here i thought it was from the old english 'stercan' for 'to stiffen'.

Old English is basically a Low German dialect. Just exactly where do you think "stercan" does come from?

[hatepoppy]

Old English is basically a Low German dialect. Just exactly where do you think "stercan" does come from?
i was totally thinking that, rry. but i still gets to gives you shits bc youre so shitgiveable.

[Archangel]

I love you too.

[Morfin]

The world hates us because hatepoppy is one of ours. Hez the shitz, man. They enviuz.

[hatepoppy]

no shit?

[Hanover Fist]

And here I thought it was because we beat the best soccer team in Europe 2-0.

[fuldstændigamok]

I 'm surprised that you even know that football exists.

[Archangel]

And here I thought it was because we beat the best soccer team in Europe 2-0.

Man, FUCK Spain. Good for you.

[Snatch]

And we took Jermaine Jones from Germany, because he wasn't white enough for them.

[Archangel]

And we took Jermaine Jones from Germany, because he wasn't white enough for them.

Ahem.

http://www.topnews.in/files/Gerald-Asamoah.jpghttp://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gWcaNRfo3f5R/340x.jpg

http://sport.ard.de/euro2008/news200804/27/img/odonkor_dpa_600.jpghttp://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/fotos/FOTO-GALERIEN-R/fussball/nationalmannschaft/deutschland-china-highlights/Germanys_20Cacau_20handles_20the_20ball_20during_2 0a_20friendly__12407266__MBHF-1243605683,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,h eight=349.jpg

[Hanover Fist]

I 'm surprised that you even know that football exists.

It's soccer silly, football is a real sport.

[Archangel]

It's soccer silly, football is a real sport.

If most of the sport consists of throwing and catching the ball with your hands, or holding it in your hands and running, why do you people call it "football", anyway? Proper football probably uses hands more than American "football" uses feet...

[Infotainment]

Why is this politics and controversy? Arch ranting about how he despises america isn't controversy or even political.

[Archangel]

Why is this politics and controversy? Arch ranting about how he despises america isn't controversy or even political.

I don't despise America. Never have (http://forum.gorillamask.net/showpost.php?p=216726&postcount=4297). Shit, half my family is American.


I despise dumb loud boorish peasants. Who these days appear to make up most of America's "conservatives". Notice how the tag on this thread does not say "US" but rather "Republicans", who right now are probably the fifth most despised political party in the world.

[Gary_Busey]

This is pretty sad, even for you Arch.

[Archangel]

This is pretty sad, even for you Arch.

What's that supposed to mean?

[mdaddyrabbit]

I love the way the president took money from us and paid for the car companies, bailing out GM went a long way, they are still filing bankruptcy. I also like the fact that he took hard earned money and bailed out all those bad trades the stock companines made. Fine job if I have to say so myself. There is nothing better than legalize stealing of tax payers money to help some sorry ass company that made bad decisions, socialism at its finest. Let take money from the earners and give it to the people who don't work and need health care. I pay for my health care every month and no one helps me. The world is full of oportunity but some rather draw a government check and leech off the tax payers. This president is perfect for that. Everyone will need a sleeve in their ass at the end of his term.

[Morfin]

Holy Non Sequitur, Batman.

[Gary_Busey]

What's that supposed to mean?
It means it's a fucking AV on an internet forum. Why you would use it to start a thread and make hypothetical blanket statements about Americans and our ideologies is beyond me.

[tockit]

Arch,

While America isn't perfect, and these days its not politically correct, I'm very proud of my country and its history. Thousands upon thousands of veterans have fought and died for the great freedoms and privileges that our people enjoy today, and I'll be damned if I want my president apologizing for anything this great nation has done!

Unlike the current president, I believe in American greatness and exceptionalism! America is always the first country to open up her coffers and lend aid when another country is in need. We are the most benevolent country in the world.

And, in case you've forgotten, we were attacked on 9/11 by Islamic terrorists who killed 3000 innocent people unprovoked, with many countries since then suffering attacks.

Barack Obama apologized and claimed that the war in Iraq was a war of choice. I have some news for BHO, all wars are wars of choice. We weren't attacked by any one country or nation, but by a terrorist organization.

I believe that Iraq, along with other nations like Afghanistan, harbored terrorists and gave them safe havens and allowed the free transfer of weapons used with the intent to harm the United States again, as well as other countries.

While there were no easy solutions to the problems we faced immediately following 9/11, I believe the actions we took against Iraq and Afghanistan were a big reason that another attack hasn't happened on US soil, and that it dealt a great blow to Al Qaeda.

Will we ever win the war on terrorism? Probably not. Unfortunately, there is, and always will be evil in this world. But if we can take the fight to the terrorists before they bring it to us, we can have the upper hand.

And if we can secure a democracy in the middle east and free its people from tyrannical rule, it would certainly be a good thing in stabilizing that part of the world.

If we cave in and try to reason with these people, we are doomed. All they know is violence, and unfortunately, that's all that gets their attention. After all, terrorism was born under a pacifist regime during the Carter administration.

As far as the effect of Barack Obama's apologies. I personally don't see how a converted Muslim going to Cairo and apologizing to its people will change their views about anything.

BTW, when is Chancellor Merkel going to apologize to the Jews for Hitler's actions?

[mdaddyrabbit]

The countries you are speaking of have always had nothing but conflict and problems, always fighting in the streets about something. If we change their government and bring some peace to the area we save lives and keep them from trying to blow shit up over hear. Some countries dont want peace they love turmoil, they are not very smart. During the invasion of Iraq there some soldiers that throwed rocks at our tanks, now how smart it that. That shows the genius that has been spread around there over the years. Our government isnt the best but it beats the hell out of theirs. I am with you tockit on every level.

[Morfin]

You breathe through your mouth, don't you.

[HAWK]

I love the way the president took money from us and paid for the car companies, bailing out GM went a long way, they are still filing bankruptcy. I also like the fact that he took hard earned money and bailed out all those bad trades the stock companines made. Fine job if I have to say so myself. There is nothing better than legalize stealing of tax payers money to help some sorry ass company that made bad decisions, socialism at its finest. Let take money from the earners and give it to the people who don't work and need health care. I pay for my health care every month and no one helps me. The world is full of oportunity but some rather draw a government check and leech off the tax payers. This president is perfect for that. Everyone will need a sleeve in their ass at the end of his term.

Reeeeally??

You have the shortest memory known to man.

I can't say I'm 100% in favor of these so-called "bailouts." However, you have to be completely full of shit to actually believe that people have forgotten Bush's bailout attempt of the "Big Three" automakers and the entire banking/finance industry.

Can you really, with a straight face, pretend there weren't several so-called "bailouts" on the books before Obama was even elected?

Get your head out of your ass. It's cute to pretend this all started last January, but in reality this is nothing new.

"The President took all our money..." Funny. Where was the complaining when "your money" was being flushed down the drain in Iraq? It's OK to blow up Iraqis and god forbid we spend it here in America. If it's going to be wasted I'd rather see it wasted here in the USA.

[mdaddyrabbit]

Reeeeally??

You have the shortest memory known to man.

I can't say I'm 100% in favor of these so-called "bailouts." However, you have to be completely full of shit to actually believe that people have forgotten Bush's bailout attempt of the "Big Three" automakers and the entire banking/finance industry.

Can you really, with a straight face, pretend there weren't several so-called "bailouts" on the books before Obama was even elected?

Get your head out of your ass. It's cute to pretend this all started last January, but in reality this is nothing new.


When did you hear me say what Bush proposed was correct, I have not mentioned Bush, I didnt agree with a lot of things Bush did. I think all the bail outs were stupid. Why didn't they take the money used to bail out all those businesses and split it up between the tax payers, I think they would have paid off houses giving money to the banks and also stimulating the economy. They gave it to the corporate world so they could give out big bonuses. The president is doing a piss poor job in finance.

[HAWK]

When did you hear me say what Bush proposed was correct, I have not mentioned Bush, I didnt agree with a lot of things Bush did. I think all the bail outs were stupid. Why didn't they take the money used to bail out all those businesses and split it up between the tax payers, I think they would have paid off houses giving money to the banks and also stimulating the economy. They gave it to the corporate world so they could give out big bonuses. The president is doing a piss poor job in finance.


You said:

I love the way the president took money from us and paid for the car companies, bailing out GM went a long way, they are still filing bankruptcy. I also like the fact that he took hard earned money and bailed out all those bad trades the stock companines made. Fine job if I have to say so myself. There is nothing better than legalize stealing of tax payers money to help some sorry ass company that made bad decisions, socialism at its finest. Let take money from the earners and give it to the people who don't work and need health care. I pay for my health care every month and no one helps me. The world is full of oportunity but some rather draw a government check and leech off the tax payers. This president is perfect for that. Everyone will need a sleeve in their ass at the end of his term.


Highlight the part that makes anyone think you're blaming anyone other than Obama. Every statement you've made has been present tense. Thus my objection. I'm sick and tired of hearing how the world turned to shit in January when it's been fucked for many years.

[Yelram]

This thread is the punchline to a very bad joke.

[Nosebuckle]

Hey Tockit, are you aware that warmaking is the primary catalyst for Big Government? Your Goldwater quote and cut-and-pasted GWB rhetorical foolishness seem to be at odds.

[mongo]

Arch, this is stooping to tater levels. Grouping people together for no reason other than baiting redsox. I'm a tad let down. You're better than this.

[BIG PIZZLE]

I pretty much agree with everything Arch posted. I dont even think I know who tocket is but now get the impression that he's a moron.

I just read his post and now I'm convinced that he's a moron.. or a 16 year old kid who has delusions of intelligence.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

What Arch doesn't know, can almost be shoehorned into the Grand Canyon

[BIG PIZZLE]

And you've got the inside track on stuff to know?

[Genius]

Republicans just need to get a handle on their shit. You can only say, "you ain't American if you ain't like us" so many times before first, people stop listening, and second, you get a backlash. You can push a small government, low-tax, agressive foreign policy agenda without treating all opposition and any foreign populace like they aren't humans.

[heelsguy]

Republicans just need to get a handle on their shit. You can only say, "you ain't American if you ain't like us" so many times before first, people stop listening, and second, you get a backlash. You can push a small government, low-tax, agressive foreign policy agenda without treating all opposition and any foreign populace like they aren't humans.


what a simplistic view. like all republicans hate anyone different from us. I guess that is why republicans led the push to bring democracy to Iraqi's: because they are so much like us?

Look, there are loud, morons and mouth-breathers on one extreme, and loud, moronic, hair-lipped, limp-wristed, tree-hugging faggotts on the other. And in between are people like me, who lean certain ways but are intelligent enough to let the facts of a situation move me.

[Genius]

Thus the first statement. Republicans need to get a handle on their shit. The party leadership needs to step up and shut up the fucking rabble that do nothing but detract from the overall platform.

[Phil Theehor]

The wording of the avatar is simplistic and sweeping because it was squeezed onto a bumper sticker. When you only have seven words with which to make your point, you get something like that.

That said, there is a fair chunk of the right and center right that isn't entirely comfortable with what they perceive as our president pandering to every People's State and Lowrentistan with whom he comes in contact.

Now, I say we fucked up in Iraq. We violated another country's sovereignty and have received our just desserts. Had I my druthers, our president would tell the world that we are leaving the world stage-- that we've been too involved in the lives of the rest of the world for too long-- that we've spent way too much trying to get people to live like us and even more subsidizing failed states and economies.

I'd like him to tell the world that yes, we have fucked up now and again, but we've also been pretty goddamn generous. However the two sum up is really immaterial, because with the exception of a few true friends, most of you fucking hate us.

So (he would say), we're out. Our troops and our charity will no longer leave our borders unless we face a real threat or a real friend needs us. You will no longer have us to blame and are free to kill each other.

We'll trade with whomever is left standing (but your access to our markets will look exactly like our access to your markets).

Oops. I didn't mean to go so far afield and deliver the abridged Theehor Doctrine...

Back on track... the president feels that Iraq was a mistake and is well within his rights to say so. Hell, that was a major plank in his platform. Throwing out a few "our bads" to world is just him staying true to what he believes and I can respect that.

However, the tone that he has taken-- that the US has been a net detriment to the world -- is a little much. That's what inspires catchy slogans like tockit's av. You needn't be a seething jingo to share such a sentiment.

[tockit]

Republicans just need to get a handle on their shit. You can only say, "you ain't American if you ain't like us" so many times before first, people stop listening, and second, you get a backlash
Excuse me, but when you have a man who is the leader of the free world and won't even place his hand over his heart during the national anthem then goes around the world apologizing for being American, one gets the impression that he's not exactly giddy about his homeland.

That national anthem still moves me today after hearing it hundreds of times. Evidently it doesn't evoke the same emotions in BHO.

Why he feels this way really puzzles me, because where else on the face of this Earth could an African American from a broken home with a white mother and an absent black father, raised largely by his grandparents, grow up to graduate from Harvard Law School then go on to become president of the United Staes besides America?

And his wife stating that the first time in her life she was "proud to be an American" was when Barack got the democratic nomination?

They're definitely not cut from the same clothe that I am.

I've served for this country's military, my father served for the military, and I've traveled to a lot of places and I've seen many, many people who would give anything for the freedoms and prosperity we have.

I can honestly say that while America ain't perfect, this is the greatest country in the world, and I'm proud to be an American!

[tockit]

I pretty much agree with everything Arch posted. I dont even think I know who tocket is but now get the impression that he's a moron.

I just read his post and now I'm convinced that he's a moron.. or a 16 year old kid who has delusions of intelligence.
Pizzle, you really don't know how much I'm devastated by your impression of me!

Nice job on spelling delusions though. That's a pretty big word with 3 syllables. Impressive.

[tockit]

Hey Tockit, are you aware that warmaking is the primary catalyst for Big Government? Your Goldwater quote and cut-and-pasted GWB rhetorical foolishness seem to be at odds.
Nose,

War making is debateable when we were attacked unprovoked on our own soil, and at the time the American people wanted justice.

What would you have done?

I don't know how you get that I'm cutting and pasting GWB rhetoric. He was a mediocre president at best in my book so I have no reason to cite him in my posts.

It does seem that Obama is using war and everything else under the sun to expand the government under his watch, along with expanding the deficit. Doesn't appear he needs a catalyst to tax, spend, and nationalize.

And his "health care" issue hasn't even been addressed yet.

[mdaddyrabbit]

tockit, looks like your in the same boat I am, you love negative reputation and negative GMF$. I think everyone here hates me. I love this forum! Not many places I can speak freely. Good job tockit.

[Nosebuckle]

Nose,

War making is debateable when we were attacked unprovoked on our own soil, and at the time the American people wanted justice.

What would you have done?

Stopped after Afghanistan

I don't know how you get that I'm cutting and pasting GWB rhetoric. He was a mediocre president at best in my book so I have no reason to cite him in my posts.

Are you fucking serious?

Unlike the current president, I believe in American greatness and exceptionalism! America is always the first country to open up her coffers and lend aid when another country is in need. We are the most benevolent country in the world.

And, in case you've forgotten, we were attacked on 9/11 by Islamic terrorists who killed 3000 innocent people unprovoked, with many countries since then suffering attacks.

Barack Obama apologized and claimed that the war in Iraq was a war of choice. I have some news for BHO, all wars are wars of choice. We weren't attacked by any one country or nation, but by a terrorist organization.

I believe that Iraq, along with other nations like Afghanistan, harbored terrorists and gave them safe havens and allowed the free transfer of weapons used with the intent to harm the United States again, as well as other countries.

While there were no easy solutions to the problems we faced immediately following 9/11, I believe the actions we took against Iraq and Afghanistan were a big reason that another attack hasn't happened on US soil, and that it dealt a great blow to Al Qaeda.

Each paragraph is paraphrasing any number of Bush's speeches. I don't care if you really think he was the worst president, your words virtually mirror his deeply flawed logic.

While Arch can smugly heave blame for America's current reputation on Republicans, Democrats are equally complicit in our misadventures by allowing them to continue while having effective control over policy decisions.

[Fuh Q]

I agree tockit's avi is retarded beyond belief and with the points Arch made referring to this in his first post. I don't feel qualified enough to comment on anything else.

[Genius]

Excuse me, but when you have a man who is the leader of the free world and won't even place his hand over his heart during the national anthem then goes around the world apologizing for being American, one gets the impression that he's not exactly giddy about his homeland.

That national anthem still moves me today after hearing it hundreds of times. Evidently it doesn't evoke the same emotions in BHO.

Why he feels this way really puzzles me, because where else on the face of this Earth could an African American from a broken home with a white mother and an absent black father, raised largely by his grandparents, grow up to graduate from Harvard Law School then go on to become president of the United Staes besides America?

And his wife stating that the first time in her life she was "proud to be an American" was when Barack got the democratic nomination?

They're definitely not cut from the same clothe that I am.

I've served for this country's military, my father served for the military, and I've traveled to a lot of places and I've seen many, many people who would give anything for the freedoms and prosperity we have.

I can honestly say that while America ain't perfect, this is the greatest country in the world, and I'm proud to be an American!
Last I checked, there was no fucking "Patriotic American Rulebook". Or maybe there is now. You have to have a lapel pin, put your hand over your heart whenever you hear a note of the anthem, have at least three America-related bumper stickers, have a middle name that is something like Steve or Bob but definitely not Hussein, etc., etc...

I suppose you were the dude that was saying things after the war had been going on for two years like, "anyone who opposes the war is aiding the enemy". But now suddenly it's okay to oppose the President's diplomatic stances and openly question his love for the country. As if that doesn't accomplish the same thing. Do you truly believe that our President doesn't love his country? Do you think he actually holds the United States in contempt, that he hates being an American, and therefore is going to undertake a "hey, we're the US, sorry we suck so bad" campaign, just for the fuck of it? That these apologies aren't simply a ploy to gain political capital around the world, that we can cash in over the next decade, since the last administration emptied the coffers?

[Mustard]

Poor Charleton Heston...

[Mustard]

http://trimex.us/img/$rand/holyfuckingshit.jpg


If you look hard enough, you can find Tockit AND mdaddyrabbit in this picture.

[heelsguy]

If you look hard enough, you can find Tockit AND mdaddyrabbit in this picture.

That lady would have more credence if she spelled AMNESTY correctly on her fucking sign.

Or maybe she was trying to spell AMENITIES..you know, like when you check into a hotel and they have free HBO.

[Genius]

NO MANATEES!!!

[Archangel]

BTW, when is Chancellor Merkel going to apologize to the Jews for Hitler's actions?

God, you are stupid.

Chancellor Brandt fucking knelt before a memorial to the victims of the Warsaw Ghetto. We have done nothing but apologised to the Jews and our European neighbours for 50 years straight. We are the only country in the world which celebrates the day it lost a war. We man up to our past every day, and make amends. Hell, my own old man wrote what is considered the definitive speech on the burden of the German people and the need to atone (http://www.mediaculture-online.de/fileadmin/bibliothek/weizsaecker_speech_may85/weizsaecker_speech_may85.pdf), held by President von Weizsäcker on the 40th anniversary of the end of WWII in Europe.

And by the way, technically that would be Chancellor Faymann's job, seeing as how Hitler was Austrian.

You really don't know anything, do you.

Talk to me when you know the difference between a slogan and an opinion.

[Archangel]

Arch, this is stooping to tater levels. Grouping people together for no reason other than baiting redsox. I'm a tad let down. You're better than this.

Whom am I grouping together with whom? I am not talking about Americans, I'm not even talking about the Republicans in general, I'm talking about the lunatic fringe of the American right, who are probably the dumbest bastards outside of the Muslim world.

The intent of this thread was to find out justhow wide-spread idiocy of that kind actually is. I didn't say that idiocy of tockit proportions was endemic, I asked whether it was.

Excuse me, but when you have a man who is the leader of the free world and won't even place his hand over his heart during the national anthem then goes around the world apologizing for being American, one gets the impression that he's not exactly giddy about his homeland.

You started an unjustified, perverse, obscene, badly managed war of aggression and pissed on your allies in the process. Any thinking person shouldn't be "exactly giddy" about that, but profoundly fucking ashamed. And anybody who thinks that that doesn't warrant a serious apology should remove their genes from the pool, stat.

Why he feels this way really puzzles me, because where else on the face of this Earth could an African American from a broken home with a white mother and an absent black father, raised largely by his grandparents, grow up to graduate from Harvard Law School then go on to become president of the United Staes besides America?

Let's see. The President of France is the son of a Hungarian immigrant, for one. The chairman of the German Green Party, MP Cem Özdemir, is the son of poor Turkish immigrants. Hell, Hugo Chavez comes from extreme poverty, and look where he is now.

I think the answer you're looking for (provided you substitute, say, Sorbonne for Harvard, etc) is "every civilised country in the fucking world". America really isn't that special in that regard.

The thing is, you know nothing of the world, and seriously believe those platitudes you spout.

I can honestly say that while America ain't perfect, this is the greatest country in the world, and I'm proud to be an American!

Superlatives require a comparison and a tertium comparationis. I can say that Mercedes build the best cars in the world, if I have driven BMWs, Audis, Lexuses and Jaguars. My opinion may be wrong, but at least it is based on empirical knowledge - if all you've ever driven is a Ford truck, and you claim that those are the greatest vehicles in Christendom, you are an idiot. By the same token, if you know nothing at all about other countries, how can you know that yours is the greatest?

[Hoser]

Why he feels this way really puzzles me, because where else on the face of this Earth could an African American from a broken home with a white mother and an absent black father, raised largely by his grandparents, grow up to graduate from Harvard Law School then go on to become president of the United Staes besides America?

JUst a shot in the dark, here, but I am going to guess the US.

BTW for someone who loves his country so much you sure need to learn to spell its name properly.

[hatepoppy]

arch, here's the rub. you, like taters or tockit or yelram or redsox, saw one instance of idiocy and lost your fuckin mind.

by suggesting that this type of ludicrous thinking is typical of americans (i.e. by stating 'if this is what you all think, we're in trouble!' and spending several paragraphs detailing exactly why) you are exactly lumping everyone in together.

sure, intelligence dictates that not everyone is like this, and you cater to that fact by adding a lil one liner at the end of your first post saying 'maybe im crazy and being ridiculous, but im gonna ignore that possibility so i can go on and on about how less shitty i am than you.'

i mean, far be it from you to recognize the stupidity of such a generalization and actually refrain from posting your own brand of biggotry.

[Archangel]

I never meant to suggest that all or even a majority of Americans were like that. I know for a fact that they are not. But then, I don't have much contact with mouth-breathers in general outside of GMF.
I just want to know what the smart Americans think of this crap - Genius has made the good point that if the Republican party continues to go down that path, they're gonna be in deep shit - but why did they set out to walk that path in the first place? How did they get from Eisenhower to Palin?

[hatepoppy]

its the aliens, man. they got their hooks in reagan/bush and havent looked back.

[Das Kahlua]

I never meant to suggest that all or even a majority of Americans were like that. I know for a fact that they are not. But then, I don't have much contact with mouth-breathers in general outside of GMF.
I just want to know what the smart Americans think of this crap - Genius has made the good point that if the Republican party continues to go down that path, they're gonna be in deep shit - but why did they set out to walk that path in the first place? How did they get from Eisenhower to Palin?

But that's just it, Arch, it's not just the Republicans, or even the 'idiotic far right' who is guilty of this. The Presidency is a popularity contest, at the end of the day that's all it is, from a country celebrates American Idol over real information. You mentioned Eisenhower, and in some ways he's exactly the same as Palin. Sure, he was a great military leader who helped win WWII; where in that particular skill set is he qualified to become President of the United States, a largely civilian-focused position?

He won the position because of his popularity, not because he was more qualified than anyone else running, plain and simple. Same for Palin; she was put on the ticket for popularity reasons, not because she'd be the best choice. And, luckily, we don't have a dictatorship, and hopefully there are enough safe guards and checks and balances to ensure that the President, or anyone for that matter, can't fuck things up too badly.

Remember, for all his nice speeches, Obama came in with less practical experience than Palin did, he was elected to the US Senate about a half hour before he started running for President. When you're popular with the people, all the other details get thrown out the window.

[Archangel]

I dunno, rampant anti-intellectualism bothers me. I know that America isn't the most high-brow of places (Dennis Miller's words, not mine), but this is getting ridiculous. How the fuck is critical thought "unamerican"? Your country was founded on some of the greatest documents ever conceived by critical thought, for fuck's sake.

[hatepoppy]

i was just trying to point out your tacit generalization. i assume that you recognize the prejudice in the statement 'This is why the world hates you.'

[Archangel]

i was just trying to point out your tacit generalization. i assume that you recognize the prejudice in the statement 'This is why the world hates you.'

The world does not hate the Palin/Plumber mouth-breathers? News to me.

[hatepoppy]

oh, so the world hates tockit. bc i thought your thread title meant 'this is why the world hates america.' fuckin bigot.

[Archangel]

Nah, the world <3's America these days. Republicans are about as popular as nazis, though.

[hatepoppy]

well then SAY IT THAT WAY!

[Archangel]

well then SAY IT THAT WAY!
I did.

That is why I chose "REPUBLICANS" as the thread's tag over "US".

[Stax]

as in bland, tasteless, and carby.

Hey, I love starch.

[Rover]

I don't know which is more sad. Tater's inability to grasp that the white man has stopped trying to hold him down, or Arch's inability to grasp American political nuance and tradition.

Traditionally, the party out of power doesn't like the president. This isn't new or special to Tockit's av.

Surely, you remember some of the things said about W Bush? You've said them yourself. So how is, "Bush is a nazi war criminal, " any different than, "Real presidents don't apologize"? If anything, Tockit is about 300 times more milder than any of the vitriol spewed out by the Leftists over the last 8 years.

And if you answer with "But Bush is a war criminal yadda yadda ya." You really aren't any different than any retard on the Right; you just have different colored sunglasses.

[hatepoppy]

except... bush IS a war criminal.

[Archangel]

One is true, the other is dumbarsery. Bush IS a criminal, and real presidents DO atone for their country's mistakes.


Relativism really doesn't become anyone.

EDIT: poppy beat me out.

[Rover]

Fine. If you actually believe that Bush is a war criminal, in a different manner than Roosevelt or Churchill were, then that's that. But you'd better come to terms with the fact that you and tockit are diametrically opposed and will not agree on how to view American politics.

a non germane EDIT: Calling Bush a war criminal is seriously deluded.

[hatepoppy]

i refer you to this video.

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[Archangel]

Fine. If you actually believe that Bush is a war criminal, in a different manner than Roosevelt or Churchill were, then that's that. But you'd better come to terms with the fact that you and tockit are diametrically opposed and will not agree on how to view American politics.

a non germane EDIT: Calling Bush a war criminal is seriously deluded.

Churchill, last I checked, didn't invade a country which hadn't bombed his FIRST.

So what exactly do you call somebody who trumps up bullshit reasons to start a war, lies to the world and his own people, breaks every treaty in the book, fucks over 80% of his country's allies, and invades a sovereign country, killing thousands of innocent people and bringing untold misery to thousands more, bungles the entire fucking affair, throws a country into chaos, has to draw troops from where they are needed (thus totally de-stabilising Afghanistan and Pakistan), kidnaps his allies' citizens and holds them without trial, tortures people, establishes a satrapial system of government with an American viceroy, etc etc etc?


Republicans probably call people like that "heroes", but the rest of the world (people who know that the world is not 5,000 years old and are not scared of tits on TV) calls them what they are.

Just because he told you that the other guys wanted to raise your taxes, does not make him one iota better than any two-bit third world murderous arsehole.

[Genius]

The obvious question being, if Ahmadinejad and the Iranians had done to Iraq EXACTLY what we had, under EXACTLY the same false pretenses, how would we have reacted? Say it started over an al-Qaeda firebombing at a mosque in Tehran that killed a couple hundred people, they fabricated evidence implicating Hussein, invaded, and got bogged down in war that ended up lasting a decade and killed thousands, civilians and likewise? How would we have responded to that?

[Hoser]

Let them do their thing. It isn't your job to go into every conflict and be the strong arm.

[Phil Theehor]

The obvious question being, if Ahmadinejad and the Iranians had done to Iraq EXACTLY what we had, under EXACTLY the same false pretenses, how would we have reacted? Say it started over an al-Qaeda firebombing at a mosque in Tehran that killed a couple hundred people, they fabricated evidence implicating Hussein, invaded, and got bogged down in war that ended up lasting a decade and killed thousands, civilians and likewise? How would we have responded to that?

Using history as guide, we would:

1) Arm the Iraqis
2) Pop some popcorn

[Genius]

Using history as guide, we would:

1) Arm the Iraqis
2) Pop some popcorn
It didn't exactly last 100 years, but I'd hope we wouldn't be happy with what turned out to be the outcome of that clusterfuck.

[heelsguy]

Churchill, last I checked, didn't invade a country which hadn't bombed his FIRST.

So what exactly do you call somebody who trumps up bullshit reasons to start a war, lies to the world and his own people, breaks every treaty in the book, fucks over 80% of his country's allies, and invades a sovereign country, killing thousands of innocent people and bringing untold misery to thousands more, bungles the entire fucking affair, throws a country into chaos, has to draw troops from where they are needed (thus totally de-stabilising Afghanistan and Pakistan), kidnaps his allies' citizens and holds them without trial, tortures people, establishes a satrapial system of government with an American viceroy, etc etc etc?


Republicans probably call people like that "heroes", but the rest of the world (people who know that the world is not 5,000 years old and are not scared of tits on TV) calls them what they are.

Just because he told you that the other guys wanted to raise your taxes, does not make him one iota better than any two-bit third world murderous arsehole.


goddammitt, arch, quit saying bush lied to america. that's bullshit and no matter how you personally view him, you know that.

[fuldstændigamok]

goddammitt, arch, quit saying bush lied to america. that's bullshit and no matter how you personally view him, you know that.

???
Oh, ok, I see your point, you're right, he should have use Cheney or Rumsfeld instead of Bush.
Damn Arch, be accurate, will ya!

[Debo]

If you look hard enough, you can find Tockit AND mdaddyrabbit in this picture.

http://bluwiki.com/images/7/78/Morans.jpg

[Debo]

Whom am I grouping together with whom? I am not talking about Americans, I'm not even talking about the Republicans in general, I'm talking about the lunatic fringe of the American right, who are probably the dumbest bastards outside of the Muslim world.

Everyone has a drunk uncle (http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/) that they are ashamed of. Political parties aren't any different.

[Archangel]

goddammitt, arch, quit saying bush lied to america. that's bullshit and no matter how you personally view him, you know that.

Oh, I'm sorry.


He made Powell, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld lie about Iraq.

Happy?

Last I checked, Hitler didn't personally kill any Jews, either. You want to get bogged down in semantics here?

[heelsguy]

Oh, I'm sorry.


He made Powell, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld lie about Iraq.

Happy?


you really think he planned all this? someone too stupid to eat a pretzel without choking masterminded this elaborate plan to invade Iraq?

he has enough you can pin on him without having to make up shit.

just like clinton was a whore-monger but that does not mean I can attack everything else about him

[Archangel]

Oh, so you elected a guy dumb enough to be used by Cheney and Rumsfeld to invade Iraq.

Bra-vo.

[Debo]

Oh, I'm sorry.


He made Powell, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld lie about Iraq.

Happy?

Did he make MI5, the Mossad, French Intelligence and Russian Intelligence lie too?

[Archangel]

Did he make MI5, the Mossad, French Intelligence and Russian Intelligence lie too?

No idea, but the Brits aside (who were so hard on Bush's cock that they could taste what he had for lunch), none of them talked about the noble endeavour of liberating the poor oppressed people of Iraq. Obviously not mentioning the part about how the country would be thrown into five years of bloody civil war.

The WMD lie is one thing. Dressing up a land grab, a robbery writ large, as something noble is another.

[Debo]

No idea, but the Brits aside (who were so hard on Bush's cock that they could taste what he had for lunch), none of them talked about the noble endeavour of liberating the poor oppressed people of Iraq. Obviously not mentioning the part about how the country would be thrown into five years of bloody civil war.

The WMD lie is one thing. Dressing up a land grab, a robbery writ large, as something noble is another.

I agree. My overall point is that everyone, regardless of whether or not they worked for the Bush Administration, got it wrong.

From what I have read, the intelligence community underestimated Saddam's weapons programs in the mid-90s and then they over estimated them in 2002.

Analysts reports are only as good as the intel obtained. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Phil Theehor]

The WMD lie is one thing. Dressing up a land grab, a robbery writ large, as something noble is another.

I'll allow, Arch, that the accounting for the whole thing would be both complex and malleable. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure we didn't turn a profit on the endeavor.

[Phil Theehor]

It didn't exactly last 100 years, but I'd hope we wouldn't be happy with what turned out to be the outcome of that clusterfuck.

If you could take oil of the equation, that's actually great foreign policy (if you have to be involved with rest of world). Take two nations that are a pain in the ass, get them fighting each other, and arm them both to the teeth. Flyover once a month to drop fresh ammunition. Let each side do our work for us.

100 years? Yes, please.

And while I know that Arch will call such an idea foul, we all know that he's grinning a bit picturing this (given how he feels about that region of the globe).

[freegood]

I'll allow, Arch, that the accounting for the whole thing would be both complex and malleable. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure we didn't turn a profit on the endeavor.

I'd really hate to drudge up Wolfowitz or Rumsfeld comments about their oil fields paying for the endeavor. Or how Rummy kicked out Gen Shinseki over their disagreement over troop placements.

It's debateful if they're deceitful, but deluded, incompetent, and stubborn to suggestion...they're guilty without a doubt.

[Das Kahlua]

No idea, but the Brits aside (who were so hard on Bush's cock that they could taste what he had for lunch), none of them talked about the noble endeavour of liberating the poor oppressed people of Iraq. Obviously not mentioning the part about how the country would be thrown into five years of bloody civil war.

The WMD lie is one thing. Dressing up a land grab, a robbery writ large, as something noble is another.

Fine, but if you want to tell the 'whole story,' do it on both sides. The reason the French and Russians didn't want us to invade is that they wanted the embargoes lifted so they could move in and begin trading with the Iraqis.

For whatever reason they didn't support the invasion, it's not so easy to say that they refrained because they thought Saddam innocent, rather than pursuing their own ends.

[tockit]

Originally Posted by tockit http://forum.gorillamask.net/images/solido/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.gorillamask.net/showthread.php?p=629767#post629767)

Why he feels this way really puzzles me, because where else on the face of this Earth could an African American from a broken home with a white mother and an absent black father, raised largely by his grandparents, grow up to graduate from Harvard Law School then go on to become president of the United Staes besides America?

JUst a shot in the dark, here, but I am going to guess the US.

BTW for someone who loves his country so much you sure need to learn to spell its name properly.
This the only comment you have with my post? Pointing out a typing error.

Get a life loser, I mean hoser !!!

[Snatch]

And the Oil for Food scandal is why the US hates the world.

[tockit]

I agree. My overall point is that everyone, regardless of whether or not they worked for the Bush Administration, got it wrong.

From what I have read, the intelligence community underestimated Saddam's weapons programs in the mid-90s and then they over estimated them in 2002.

Analysts reports are only as good as the intel obtained. Garbage in, garbage out.
Yes its easy to sit back and play armchair quarterback like Arch, when your country hardly gets involved.

I've read that the Muslim population is growing rapidly in Germany. I have pilot friends who travel to Germany and tell me there are Muslim's everywhere over there these days.

Wait till they declare Jihad and turn the Cologne Cathedral into a mosque or carbomb the Brandenburg Gate.

Maybe Arch's old man can write an apology letter to Bin Laden afterwards about how the German's should have been more sensitive the their culture and more diverse, since he's into that kind of thing.

[Debo]

Yes its easy to sit back and play armchair quarterback like Arch, when your country hardly gets involved.

I've read that the Muslim population is growing rapidly in Germany. I have pilot friends who travel to Germany and tell me there are Muslim's everywhere over there these days.

Wait till they declare Jihad and turn the Cologne Cathedral into a mosque or carbomb the Brandenburg Gate.

Maybe Arch's old man can write an apology letter to Bin Laden afterwards about how the German's should have been more sensitive the their culture and more diverse, since he's into that kind of thing.

Dude, no one on here has defended the Iraq War more than I have. And how did my country hardly get involved? Or are you talking to Arch?

His point is valid and so is mine. The intel about how developed his weapons programs was wrong. But that wasn't the sole reason that the US invaded Iraq so it doesn't change my rational for supporting it.

As I said before, intel is only as good as the information that it is based on. We erred on the side of caution and assumed that he had a more developed weapons system than he did have. There is no arguing that. But, we did find a ton of other violations (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/kay.report/).

[tockit]

Dude, no one on here has defended the Iraq War more than I have. And how did my country hardly get involved? Or are you talking to Arch?

His point is valid and so is mine. The intel about how developed his weapons programs was wrong. But that wasn't the sole reason that the US invaded Iraq so it doesn't change my rational for supporting it.

As I said before, intel is only as good as the information that it is based on. We erred on the side of caution and assumed that he had a more developed weapons system than he did have. There is no arguing that. But, we did find a ton of other violations (http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/kay.report/).
I'm talking about Arch.

You seem to have a level head on your shoulders, unlike the other guy.

I know all about their violations. Something like 38 UN resolutions broken. No one like to talk about that for some odd reason?

[redsox39]

You can push a small government, low-tax, agressive foreign policy agenda without treating all opposition and any foreign populace like they aren't humans.

Sounds exactly like Arch. So how about those Turks getting in the EU? How you feeling about Paki's today?

The Secret is out...Arch is a Republican!

[Nosebuckle]

I know all about their violations. Something like 38 UN resolutions broken. No one like to talk about that for some odd reason?

So it's really been worth 4,500 American lives and over 100,00 Iraqi lives to rectify Iraq breaking 38 or so worthless UN resolutions? And that's just the direct human cost, more than enough to show it is and continues to be a foolish endeavor.

[Snatch]

Well, the difference is that the US haven't targeted civilians as a policy.

[Mustard]

All you whiny faggots get over it and just shut the fuck up.

Mustard has spoken!

[hatepoppy]

bush sucks cheney sucks obama sucks

[Archangel]

Yes its easy to sit back and play armchair quarterback like Arch, when your country hardly gets involved.

Yeah, we got out of the "getting involved" business a while back. Apparently, people don't like you when you bomb them, a concept apparently incomprehensible to Republicans.

I've read that the Muslim population is growing rapidly in Germany. I have pilot friends who travel to Germany and tell me there are Muslim's everywhere over there these days.

Wow! Really? You've read that? I've read that most rural Republicans are dumb as rocks, and that water is wet!

I am frankly amazed at your erudition.

Wait till they declare Jihad and turn the Cologne Cathedral into a mosque or carbomb the Brandenburg Gate.

Yeah, last I checked, they were too busy blowing up skyscrapers in your neck of the woods.

Maybe Arch's old man can write an apology letter to Bin Laden afterwards about how the German's should have been more sensitive the their culture and more diverse, since he's into that kind of thing.

Jesus fucking Christ, are you one day gonna learn that the English plural does not warrant an apostrophe? Also, if you cannot see the difference between apologising as a country for starting the most devastating war in history and the bullshit you're spewing, do the human gene pool a favour and kindly remove yourself from it. And just maybe, a senior advisor to two foreign ministers and two presidents knows a bit more about how policy works than some semi-literate redneck subhuman.

The fact that tockit is entitled to an opinion is all you need to know about why Rousseau was a fucking idiot.

Well, the difference is that the US haven't targeted civilians as a policy.

So you're not evil, you're incompetent. Makes no difference to the birthday party or wedding reception you just bombed.

[Pox]

Why do you hate freedom? We gave your country David Hasselhoff, you ingrate

[Snatch]

So you're not evil, you're incompetent. Makes no difference to the birthday party or wedding reception you just bombed.

Well, we don't really have any context for competency. Either way, it's good for the insurgents if civilians die, and bad for the United States if civilians die. Can we agree on that? So, you don't think the United States does whatever it can to minimize civilian deaths?

Either way, since when do you care about the civilians?

[Debo]

Either way, since when do you care about the civilians?

Or brown people?

[tockit]

Yeah, we got out of the "getting involved" business a while back. Apparently, people don't like you when you bomb them, a concept apparently incomprehensible to Republicans.

So tell me Mr. Know-It-All, what would you do if Al Qaeda flew airliners into downtown Berlin, killing 3000 people?

Group Hug???

Wow! Really? You've read that? I've read that most rural Republicans are dumb as rocks, and that water is wet!

I'm not a Republican, so I can't say.

Of course, you know everything, so I imagine its the gospel truth.

[Das Kahlua]

Churchill, last I checked, didn't invade a country which hadn't bombed his FIRST.

Because he didn't have that luxury. He only came into power after Chamberlain fucked everything up beyond belief with promises of 'hope' and 'change' from Hitler. A Hitler who promised to only take a little bit of land back that was 'rightfully his' and nothing more.

So what exactly do you call somebody who trumps up bullshit reasons to start a war, lies to the world and his own people, breaks every treaty in the book, fucks over 80% of his country's allies, and invades a sovereign country, killing thousands of innocent people and bringing untold misery to thousands more, bungles the entire fucking affair, throws a country into chaos, has to draw troops from where they are needed, kidnaps his allies' citizens and holds them without trial, tortures people, establishes a satrapial system of government with a viceroy, etc etc etc?

Saddam Hussein. Adolf Hitler. According to your logic and reason, FDR should qualify as well, and Churchill by extension, since it was the Japanese that attacked the US at Pearl Harbor, not the 'Germans' (even though it still wasn't a truly unified German state) and Churchill should be guilty by association, since he was clearly 'riding on the US cock.'

Republicans probably call people like that "heroes", but the rest of the world (people who know that the world is not 5,000 years old and are not scared of tits on TV) calls them what they are.

So you're a spokesman for the world, now. Quite a promotion.

Liberals call people who stamp nails into trees to hurt/kill loggers heroes. Doesn't make it so.

It also doesn't make you any less of the self-righteous, indulgent ass that you've turned into, either.

Just because he told you that the other guys wanted to raise your taxes, does not make him one iota better than any two-bit third world murderous arsehole.

Shocking, politicians are the same everywhere. Here in American Obama is using the threat of fake science to scare people that they are about to die into supporting his policies. Oh, BTW, these policies I speak of, many of which he is taking straight from the Bush administration.

Whenever you're ready to start taking shots at him, I'm all ears.

[Archangel]

So tell me Mr. Know-It-All, what would you do if Al Qaeda flew airliners into downtown Berlin, killing 3000 people?


Not invade Iraq, for one, since it had absolutely no ties to the people who did that, something EVERYBODY in the world knew except Americans and Tony Blair?

Thanks for justifying my self-righteousness.

[Archangel]

Because he didn't have that luxury. He only came into power after Chamberlain fucked everything up beyond belief with promises of 'hope' and 'change' from Hitler. A Hitler who promised to only take a little bit of land back that was 'rightfully his' and nothing more.
You're that "appeaser" guy who got owned by O'Reilly, aren't you.


Saddam Hussein. Adolf Hitler. According to your logic and reason, FDR should qualify as well, and Churchill by extension, since it was the Japanese that attacked the US at Pearl Harbor, not the 'Germans' (even though it still wasn't a truly unified German state) and Churchill should be guilty by association, since he was clearly 'riding on the US cock.'

When Saddam first invaded a country, you guys told him to. "Go kill some Iranians, and you can keep all the oil fields you can get."

When, a million dead Iranians later, he didn't get the oil he was promised - BY YOU - he invaded another totalitarian dictatorship; after all, you guys seemed to be okay with it. Imagine his surprise when he was branded the Anti-Christ for it.

Also, I was not aware that FDR or Churchill fucked over their allies or shat on international treaties, or that they tortured people. And get your history right; Germany was bombing Britain LONG before Pearl Harbor, so your argument using Churchill is beyond stupid.

Thus, the only people left on that list would be Hitler... And Fucknuts. Nice. Hey, both won two elections, too.

So you're a spokesman for the world, now. Quite a promotion.

Well, I know how people outside the US feel. You neither know nor care.

Liberals call people who stamp nails into trees to hurt/kill loggers heroes. Doesn't make it so.

Yeah, but those retards kill less people in a decade than your average Bush killed in a week; again, relativism is for homos.

It also doesn't make you any less of the self-righteous, indulgent ass that you've turned into, either.

Oh, so thinking that Bush was mostly elected by jackasses makes me self-righteous? Come on. "Get a brain! Morans"? Seriously?

Shocking, politicians are the same everywhere. Here in American Obama is using the threat of fake science to scare people that they are about to die into supporting his policies. Oh, BTW, these policies I speak of, many of which he is taking straight from the Bush administration.

Whenever you're ready to start taking shots at him, I'm all ears.

Again, when he invades, say, Venezuela for their oil while citing bullshit reasons so thin you could read a newspaper through them, and then bungles the whole affair, I'll take shots at him, too.

I never denied that Obama was just a politician.

You are the ones denying that the guys whom your collective greed and pettiness re-elected are murderous fucking swine. I'm not suggesting that Obama is much better than other politicians; I'm saying that the guy you elected was infinitely worse. So much worse, in fact, that a normal smooth talking politician looks like Jesus Himself to the world.

[Phil Theehor]

I blame the Dems for Bush. Twice they ran remarkably uninspiring flaccid wangs against W. That the incumbent party could lose in 2000 and that the challenging party could lose in 2004 is baffling to me. You had to search far and wide to find candidates that shitty.

[Mustard]

I blame the Dems for Bush. Twice they ran remarkably uninspiring flaccid wangs against W. That the incumbent party could lose in 2000 and that the challenging party could lose in 2004 is baffling to me. You had to search far and wide to find candidates that shitty.
Heh heh. Yeah... I see what you're saying. Aside from the humor in the statement, isn't this a bit akin to blaming the rape victim for being stupid enough to go back to the rapist?

[Phil Theehor]

Heh heh. Yeah... I see what you're saying. Aside from the humor in the statement, isn't this a bit akin to blaming the rape victim for being stupid enough to go back to the rapist?

Finally. Someone who gets it. I'd like to suggest "Sink The Wise" the next time someone changes your name.

[Yelram]

I really cant even stomach this thread, Arch, you are setting yourself up to be the snooty, uppity, retarded liberal version of Tockit. Is that what you fucking want bro? Because you seriously sound demented. You see arch, just because you deem your twisted political views as "intellectual" doesnt make them that. I love how you keep bringing up Germany, as if the Nazis were the same thing as the will of the people(I am aware that Hitler was democratically elected, not exactly an endorsement of German democracy if you ask me). "we celebrate the day we lost a war", or how about the day the fucking dictator was outsted, I bet Iraq will have a day like that too. I think we do as well, its called July 4th. You see, opressive regimes have a habit of sticking around without some sort of help from a 3rd party source. I'm sorry if Germany didnt benefit from having the oil for food program exposed/removed, or from Iraq not trading oil in Euros, that does not somehow change one of the most successful wars in History into some brutal war crime. Only a brainless, limp wristed excuse for a human being could call the emancipation of 30 million people a war crime. Real presidents dont apologize for significant ACCOMPLISHMENTS that the country has made, at the cost of our own money, and flesh. I'm sure some mother who lost her son in Iraq wants the standing commander and chief insinuating that her sons sacrafice was not only worthless, but worthy of an apology to the world.

I suppose in your simple little mind the government of Honduras is acting in an "uncivilized" manner by removing the president?

Its also funny that you mentioned our past associations with Saddam as support for why the US is bad, but in the same thread we've heard your blither and blather about "apologizing", and "living up to your mistakes". Hmm, maybe Bush should have knelt down in front of some memorial of all the dead Iraqis/Iranians caused by the US's support of Saddam right? A purely symbolic, entirely useless action, that didnt right a single wrong that was actually committed. I'm sure that had a more positive effect than actually removing the dictator, and dumping billions of American dollars into the countries infrastructure. I think you demostrate quite nicely the difference between someone who is an "intellectual" (an entirely self-proclaimed moniker), and someone who is intelligent..........

[Mustard]

Finally. Someone who gets it. I'd like to suggest "Sink The Wise" the next time someone changes your name.
"Mustard, The Wise" would be more appropriate.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go stub my toe and swear loudly at my misfortune.

[Archangel]

I still haven't seen an answer to my actual question yet.


What is it with the American gluttony for cheap, unreflected, uncritical patriotism? The only other countries where I see such behaviour are Iran, North Korea and Turkey; does the average flag waver (of any country) even know what "patriotism" means? Because, you know, the word does have more than three syllables...

[Das Kahlua]

I still haven't seen an answer to my actual question yet.


What is it with the American gluttony for cheap, unreflected, uncritical patriotism? The only other countries where I see such behaviour are Iran, North Korea and Turkey; does the average flag waver (of any country) even know what "patriotism" means? Because, you know, the word does have more than three syllables...

Main Entry:pa·tri·ot·ism http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Patriotism#)Pronunciation: \ˈpā-trē-ə-ˌti-zəm, chiefly British ˈpa-\ Function:noun Date:circa 1726 : love for or devotion to one's country

Somehow I don't think that throwing one's country under the bus to make an individual more popular, with a small group of people nationally or the majority of the people internationally, would qualify as 'love for or devotion to one's country.'

Especially since the same dictionary's definition of 'love' is:
1love http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/love#)Pronunciation: \ˈləv\ Function:noun Etymology:Middle English, from Old English lufu; akin to Old High German luba love, Old English lēof dear, Latin lubēre, libēre to pleaseDate:before 12th century 1 a (1): strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child> (2): attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3): affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests <love for his old schoolmates> b: an assurance of love <give her my love>2: warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion <love of the sea>3 a: the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration <baseball was his first love> b (1): a beloved person : darling (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/darling) —often used as a term of endearment (2)British —used as an informal term of address4 a: unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1): the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2): brotherly concern for others b: a person's adoration of God

and the definition of 'devotion' is:


Main Entry:de·vo·tion http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/devotion#)Pronunciation: \di-ˈvō-shən, dē-\ Function:noun Date:13th century 1 a: religious fervor : piety (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piety) b: an act of prayer or private worship —usually used in plural c: a religious exercise or practice other than the regular corporate worship of a congregation2 a: the act of devoting (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/devoting) <devotion of time and energy> b: the fact or state of being ardently dedicated and loyal <her devotion to the cause> <filial devotion>3obsolete : the object of one's devotion

If you haven't seen how wrong you are yet, I could also look up the definition of 'country,' 'for,' 'or,' or 'to' if you really want to be specific about it.

Oh, and to answer your question, I do know what the definition of 'patriotic' is, and clearly Obama doesn't fit it, and you don't know it if you think he does.

And you make fun of tockit for being ignorant...

[Archangel]

So the nazis were great patriots, then?

[Archangel]

No, seriously, you're cute throwing dictionary definitions at me, but if that is supposed to tell me that love and critique are mutually exclusive, you really need to learn how arguments work.

So, say, if I am a "devout" Christian, I cannot question God's nature in the wake of a major disaster? Or be disgusted at the Church's child abuse scandals, and their handling of them?
If I'm a "devout" fan of the Detroit Pistons, I cannot debate the notion that the acquisition of Ben Gordon may have been a mistake? Ah, no, somebody says that that is what has been decided upstairs, and you have to go along with it, because those making the decisions are superhumanly perfect. And if you DARE criticise anything, let alone the status quo, and Heaven forbid in public, you're a terrorist. Or at least not a Christian or a Pistons fan.

That's what you're arguing here, right?

As I said, cute. If you're a Protestant, have the decency to shoot yourself, because you just raped everything Martin Luther stood for.

If it were not straddling, but triple-jumping across the line from patriotism to totalitarianism. Those whom you define as "patriots" simply cannot be patriots because they are stripped of all free will. You describe unquestioning, uncritical subjects, when patriotism is ever the prerogative of free men. And if I read my Kant, Voltaire and Jefferson correctly, the first sign of a free man is critical fucking thought. We became free from theocracy when people questioned the nature of God. We became free from monarchy when we questioned the kings' right to govern. But when we question the rightness of invading countries and murdering people, we are "throwing our country under the bus".

Idiot.


I shouldn't even get into the idea of "love", because your arguments are so beneath me. Just this: If I marry someone whom I adore, or am born to a family I deeply love, I am henceforth banned from ever criticising any of their shortcomings or anything wrong they ever did/do again, right? If I apologise at a town hall meeting for my drunk idiot uncles setting the neighbours' house on fire, and try to mend fences with them for being justifiably cross with our family, then that means I don't "love" my family in your world, apparently.


Thanks for answering my question, anyway.

The funniest thing is that if you had been born in Iran, you'd be in front of the TV, urging the militias to kill more protesters. Because, I mean, that's the patriotic thing to do, right?

[Das Kahlua]

No, seriously, you're cute throwing dictionary definitions at me, but if that is supposed to tell me that love and critique are mutually exclusive, you really need to learn how arguments work.

So, say, if I am a "devout" Christian, I cannot question God's nature in the wake of a major disaster? Or be disgusted at the Church's child abuse scandals, and their handling of them?
If I'm a "devout" fan of the Detroit Pistons, I cannot debate the notion that the acquisition of Ben Gordon may have been a mistake? Ah, no, somebody says that that is what has been decided upstairs, and you have to go along with it, because those making the decisions are superhumanly perfect. And if you DARE criticise anything, let alone the status quo, you're a terrorist. Or at least not a Christian or a Pistons fan.

That's what you're arguing here, right?

As I said, cute. If you're a Protestant, have the decency to shoot yourself, because you just raped everything Martin Luther stood for.

If it were not blatantly crossing the line from patriotism to totalitarianism. Those whom you define as "patriots" simply cannot be patriots because they are stripped of all free will.

I shouldn't even get into the idea of "love", because your arguments are so beneath me. Just this: If I marry someone whom I adore, or am born to a family I deeply love, I am henceforth banned from ever criticising any of their shortcomings or anything wrong they ever did/do again, right? If I apologise for my drunk idiot uncles setting the neighbours' house on fire, and try to mend fences with them for being justifiably cross with our family, then that means I don't "love" my family in your world, apparently.


Thanks for answering my question, anyway.

The funniest thing is that if you had been born in Iran, you'd be in front of the TV, urging the militias to kill more protesters. Because, I mean, that's the patriotic thing to do, right?

Try as you want, you can use as many big word or talk down to as many people as you want, you're still a desperate, pathetic asshole (arsehole if you want) who is trying to fill some kind of inferiority complex by putting other people down.

You don't come across as smart, you come across as smarmy, obnoxious, self-righteous piece of shit who cries himself to sleep at night. You used to be a worthwhile poster, now you are just as bad as the people you mock, whether it be taters or tockit; you are a one-note show, resorting to crying about Bush at every turn, it's fucking pathetic. If you haven't kept up with the current events, just say so, stop trying to turn every thread into your own personal vendetta.

Oh, and I've seen what else you 'bring' to GMF, constant pictures of you and your friends, non stop, like you're on some fucking reality TV show. Jesus, you make Claydon or Mongo seem like nothing, as much of an attention whore as you've become.

So, go ahead, neg rep me some more, I'm just going to keep mocking you incessently, because I speak the truth, no matter how much you might dislike it.

[Archangel]

As long as there's one person on here defending Bush, I'll call them criminals and idiots. Because that's what they are. If that makes me a one trick pony, so be it. Get tockit and redsox to shut up, and I will be posting about rainbows and unicorns once more.


Also, non stop?

You faggots really will say anything without proof these days. Give me more than five instances of me "incessantly" posting photos (not two posts in a row, mind you) of "me and my friends", or shut up, you duped little fascist sheep.

[Archangel]

Okay, I checked, an lo and behold, I "incessantly" posted pics of me and my friends on December 20th and three weeks ago in PYP. What an attention whore I am.

Or, Bush apologists and truth are mutually exclusive.

[Archangel]

My entire point is this:

The manifest idiocy of the average flag waving peasantry can be proven by the fact that they are the same in every country. It's those who can hardly spell talking the loudest about their country's achievements in culture or academia, those who know next to nothing about their country's history who are most proud of it. They are, in a word, interchangeable: The only reason they are "patriotic" Americans instead of Venezuelans, French, Germans or Iranians is pure happenstance of location of birth; the only reason they think that their country is the best is because they know nothing about any other. One "why?" will deflate them. None of them KNOWS why USA is #1.

And that makes it rather meaningless, doesn't it?

[redsox39]

Well...someone had to fill the Vacuum of Taters...I just never thought it would be Arch. I do find it enjoyable he put down the Plato and picked up the Janeane Garofalo. Someone had to remind us that Bush=Hitler and everyone that disagrees with Obama is a illiterate redneck who worships Jesus while fucking sheep. Preferably Black sheep, because they are all racist too.

[Archangel]

Well...someone had to fill the Vacuum of Taters...I just never thought it would be Arch. I do find it enjoyable he put down the Plato and picked up the Janeane Garofalo. Someone had to remind us that Bush=Hitler and everyone that disagrees with Obama is a illiterate redneck who worships Jesus while fucking sheep. Preferably Black sheep, because they are all racist too.

We got it, redsox.


You suck at reading comprehension, and believe that my posts say what Goat says they do because you can't understand them.

[Yelram]

We got it, redsox.


You suck at reading comprehension, and believe that my posts say what Goat says they do because you can't understand them.


You really believe you are saying something intelligent dont you? I've been reading Atlas Shrugged, and I realized instantly why you hated it. Its because all the snooty intellectuals in it are exactly like you, they make arguments just like you, and they are detached from the real world, just like you. They whisk away facts, and common sense with appeals to emotional insecurity, and call anyone who disagrees with them "ignorant" of the "true nature" of "civility". I really encourage everyone to read it.

But back to the Iraq war, which seems to be the main focal point for your myriad of untamed assumptions.

To me, If we as a country, supported a dictatorial regime in Iraq, purely to placate the peoples of the middle east, and focus agression on Iran, and then he turns, and attacks his other neighbor(and his own people), which we then defend, and 10 years later he's in a position to hand Iraq to his sons, after 16 UN resolutions threatening force, the embargo starving iraqis, and the oil for food program lining the pockets of Europeans elites, I believe the liberation, and democratization of Iraq is important in redeeming ourselves from our past support of Saddam. Now instead of filling a page with hot air, and haughty ideological jism, why dont we address the facts. Is there a reason we should have left Saddam in power in Iraq? Other than your ridiculously misguided notion that the peace derived from allowing a brutal dictator to remain in power is somehow a long-term solution.

[Hoser]

Saddam did do many terrible things, but he also did many good things for Iraq, things that no others did before him (Building Universities, promotion womens literacy, helping remove religion from government, modernized public health care [by middle east standards], etc). I am not saying he was a great and wonderful man, but it is very easy to see what he did wrong, without seeing what he had done right. It is very easy for people like redsox and yelram to listen to the news, take it for pure fact and give blind support.

From what I have seen (on the news, so thats not saying much), they are no better off now then they were prior to the war. The only difference is now they have some serious rebuilding to do.

[Nosebuckle]

Is there a reason we should have left Saddam in power in Iraq? Other than your ridiculously misguided notion that the peace derived from allowing a brutal dictator to remain in power is somehow a long-term solution.

How about the 4,500 dead troops, 100,000 dead Iraqis, and a couple few trillion dollars.

And what exactly was Saddam going to do had we left him in place? Launch those WMDs into Israel? Seriously what the fuck was he going to do. Like other vile tyrants, he was certainly crazy, perhaps insane, but suicidal he was not. If he so much as laid a finger on one of his neighbors, he would have been flattened.

[Yelram]

Saddam did do many terrible things, but he also did many good things for Iraq, things that no others did before him (Building Universities, promotion womens literacy, helping remove religion from government, modernized public health care [by middle east standards], etc). I am not saying he was a great and wonderful man, but it is very easy to see what he did wrong, without seeing what he had done right. It is very easy for people like redsox and yelram to listen to the news, take it for pure fact and give blind support.

From what I have seen (on the news, so thats not saying much), they are no better off now then they were prior to the war. The only difference is now they have some serious rebuilding to do.

Its fucking ill-informed retards like you that are the problem, what grade do you get to in Canada before they throw you out into the wilderness? Like 4th or 5th?

Took religion out of politics? Do you realize what kind of idiotic statement that is? HE WAS A FUCKING DICTATOR you moron. He took everything out of politics, like choice. Health care? Since Saddam has been in power, there has been almost constant war in that country, since 1990, the quality of healthcare slumped further and further, because of the embargo. This will finally be a chance for the Iraqis to divert their countries resources towards the people instead of the party officials.

Womans literacy??? Heres what Human Rights Watch has to say about that, and they arent exactly Fox News.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/backgrounder/wrd/iraq-women.htm

[Yelram]

How about the 4,500 dead troops, 100,000 dead Iraqis, and a couple few trillion dollars.

And what exactly was Saddam going to do had we left him in place? Launch those WMDs into Israel? Seriously what the fuck was he going to do. Like other vile tyrants, he was certainly crazy, perhaps insane, but suicidal he was not. If he so much as laid a finger on one of his neighbors, he would have been flattened.
Like invaded Kuwait? Or warred with Iran? If every time a country is liberated from tyrant rule, we refuse to count the successes with the losses, everyone loses.

[Nosebuckle]

Like invaded Kuwait? Or warred with Iran? If every time a country is liberated from tyrant rule, we refuse to count the successes with the losses, everyone loses.

Yeah and we promptly kicked his ass out of Kuwait and directly supported his war against Iran. I have no clue what the second sentence means.

[Archangel]

Like invaded Kuwait? Or warred with Iran? If every time a country is liberated from tyrant rule, we refuse to count the successes with the losses, everyone loses.

I know that you are immune to the truth, but I'll try anyway.

Iraq's war with Iran was INSTIGATED by the United States. YOU mother fuckers told Saddam that he could keep any oil fields there he could get his hands on, if only he kept the Ayatollahs busy. And Iraq's invasion of Kuwait was a direct result of his failure to get said oil. He probably thought that if you wanted him to make war with some medieval totalitarian country in the region, you wouldn't mind if he invaded another.

But he forgot that all totalitarian shitholes are paragons of virtue as long as they are on the US's cock. Thwarted by US hypocrisy, how about that.

And spare me that gayness about noble liberation from evil tyrants: You are honestly the only person on earth dumb enough to believe that shit. You expect me to believe that the country which supported Saddam, Batista, Pinochet, Musharraf, Pahlavi, the al Sauds etc gives a flying fuck about oppressed masses? When it's led by Cheney and Rumsfeld, no less?

Negro please.

[Morfin]

I love everyone. I just felt that needed to be expressed.

[Rover]

Since we're interested in dealing truth today...

I know that you are immune to the truth, but I'll try anyway.

Iraq's war with Iran was INSTIGATED by the United States. YOU mother fuckers told Saddam that he could keep any oil fields there he could get his hands on, if only he kept the Ayatollahs busy. And Iraq's invasion of Kuwait was a direct result of his failure to get said oil. He probably thought that if you wanted him to make war with some medieval totalitarian country in the region, you wouldn't mind if he invaded another.So, in other words, Saddam is an idiot and didn't understand why the US would want him to attack Iran. And he refused to leave Kuwait. He had plenty of opportunity to. But, yes, in your world, I guess the US is to blame for Saddam attacking Kuwait.

And spare me that gayness about noble liberation from evil tyrants: You are honestly the only person on earth dumb enough to believe that shit. You expect me to believe that the country which supported Saddam, Batista, Pinochet, Musharraf, Pahlavi, the al Sauds etc gives a flying fuck about oppressed masses? When it's led by Cheney and Rumsfeld, no less?

Negro please.Maybe he isn't dumb enough to forget that we've fought a war to free ourselves from oppression, fought another war among ourselves to free a people from oppression, fought twice on the European continent to free them from oppression, fought twice on the Asian continent to free them from oppression, and engaged in a 40 year ideological war with a superpower to free the world from domination.

So, maybe if you view Saddam, Batista, Pinochet, et al, in that light, you'll understand that not every action a country takes is independent of each other.

The other alternative you're suggesting is that because the US has supported some tyrants in the past, we must support all tyrants in the future. That doesn't seem very logically sound.

[Yelram]

I know that you are immune to the truth, but I'll try anyway.

Iraq's war with Iran was INSTIGATED by the United States. YOU mother fuckers told Saddam that he could keep any oil fields there he could get his hands on, if only he kept the Ayatollahs busy. And Iraq's invasion of Kuwait was a direct result of his failure to get said oil. He probably thought that if you wanted him to make war with some medieval totalitarian country in the region, you wouldn't mind if he invaded another.

But he forgot that all totalitarian shitholes are paragons of virtue as long as they are on the US's cock. Thwarted by US hypocrisy, how about that.

And spare me that gayness about noble liberation from evil tyrants: You are honestly the only person on earth dumb enough to believe that shit. You expect me to believe that the country which supported Saddam, Batista, Pinochet, Musharraf, Pahlavi, the al Sauds etc gives a flying fuck about oppressed masses? When it's led by Cheney and Rumsfeld, no less?

Negro please.

You are seriously retarded. The Iraq-Iran war did not start because of US instigation, there is absolutely no evidence to support that preposterous assertion. You could argue that had Iran not had its Islamic Revolution the Iran/Iraq war wouldnt have started, and we are certainly responsible for that. I still dont understand your logic, mainly because you dont have such a thing. Its alright that Germany murdered the Jews because "Germany has made up for it", by acting like they fucking care. But if we attempt to remove a dictator we supported 2 decades ago, thats a war crime, and somehow, everything that dictator did in your mind, is the US's fault, even his removal, which you dont approve of is somehow a bad thing.

Do they actually teach history where you went to school? Batista was in fucking 52, do we really want to go back that far and see who your fucking country was supporting? You are getting into the times when we were fighting communism around the world. I dont see the relevance. We helped half the country overthrow the half that was going to totally destroy it. Again you never pay attention to who is being removed, only focus on the trouble after they are removed.

"Allende's Popular Unity government tried to maintain normal relations with the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States). When Chile nationalized its copper industry, Washington cut off U.S. credits and increased its support to opposition. Forced to seek alternative sources of trade and finance, Chile gained commitments from the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) to invest some $400 million in Chile in the next six years. Allende's government was disappointed that it received far less economic assistance from the USSR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USSR) than it hoped for. Trade between the two countries did not significantly increase and the credits were mainly linked to the purchase of Soviet equipment. Moreover, credits from the Soviet Union were much less than those provided by People's Republic of China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China) and countries of Eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe). When Allende visited the USSR in late 1972 in search of more aid and additional lines of credit, after 3 years of political and economic failure and chaos he was turned down. [25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende#cite_note-24)"



And you do know it was Allende who appointed Pinochet right? He picked his military commander, whoever it was, one way or the other, the US was going to try to support in a coup attempt. It wasnt like the people were exactly happy with the way their government was going. And it looks like the communists didnt exactly think he was doing the best job either.

I dont want to get into Musharraf because you are mentally deluded about him.

Heres how fucking stupid you are, you mention the al sauds, as if the US put them in power (a monarchy that dates back to 1744), and yet if we supported a coup to overthrow them, you would say the US is destroying the countries sovereignty, you are so inconsistent its laughable.

I suppose we've never liberated South Korea either right? I suppose that country would be exactly how it is now without US intervention. I'm sure Germany and France would be peachy as well.

I should have realized that someone who believes wealth is created every time he uses his ATM card wouldnt understand the complicated implications of a country nationalizing its industry, and seizing property owned by US companies, or the idea that forcing a wage increase, while price fixing causes rapid inflation, and a downward spiral regarding standard of living. These ideas are for people who have actual jobs, and contribute to the economy, and have to do things like make payroll, and afford insurance, and also make a profit. I'm not surprised that your math skills are lacking, it seems the boolean logic that goes along with mathematics/physics, also seems to be missing from your set of specialized skills (snobbiness, shoes, and your strong march towards anti-imperialism(read communism)).

[Okie Medicvet]

I believe the liberation, and democratization of Iraq is important in redeeming ourselves from our past support of Saddam

I actually agree with that. Sadamn was the frankenstein we helped create, and so we had some responsibility to destroy him. But that wasn't the real reason we went in, otherwise that would have been bandied about when the 'shock and awe' was getting started, instead of WMD's that weren't there.

Is Iraq better now than it was under Sadamn? That can be debated until the cows come home, but we need to work with what is, not what should be.

But yeah, Tockits avatar is stupid and implies that we don't have a right to own up to our mistakes in the past.