Arizona Considers Concealed Guns in Bars

[BIG PIZZLE]

I know where I'm not gonna party.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090628/ap_on_re_us/us_guns_in_bars


PHOENIX – There was a time in the Wild West that cowboys had to check their guns before they could pull up a bar stool for a drink — rules that protected against the saloon gunfights that came to define the frontier era in places like Arizona.

But a bill moving through the Arizona Legislature has some bar owners fearful that the state is turning back the clock to the Old West. Lawmakers are considering a bill that would allow anyone with a concealed-weapons permit to bring a handgun into bars and restaurants serving alcohol.

The bill gives bars discretion to keep gun-toting patrons out, and anyone with a weapon would not be allowed to drink. But the bill has angered bar owners who believe booze and guns are a recipe for disaster.

"This might be one of the stupidest things that I have heard of," said Mike Nelson, who owns Pomeroy's bar in Phoenix and plans to post a sign on his front door outlawing guns in his bar as soon as possible. "Can you think of a single reason guns and alcohol should be intertwined?"

The bill is part of a nationwide push by the National Rifle Association. Georgia passed a similar law in 2008, as did Tennessee earlier this year in becoming the 40th state to allow bar or restaurant patrons to carry guns.

"These laws are common sense," said NRA spokeswoman Rachel Parsons. "Restaurants are not immune to criminal activity. Law-abiding people — regardless of whether they're in restaurants, cars or homes — they should be able to protect themselves against criminal attack."

One of the bill's sponsors, Republican Rep. John Kavanagh, said it's about time Arizona passes such a law, and that the most important thing is that people carrying guns into bars aren't allowed to drink.

"You don't want intoxicated people with weapons, and this bill continues the prohibition against drinking and carrying," said Kavanagh, a retired police officer in New York and New Jersey. "What is the problem with having a gun in a delicatessen where someone is having a beer with their pastrami two tables away?"

The law would only apply to people with concealed-weapons permits because lawmakers say that type of gun owner has to pass a background check and take an eight-hour course to get their permits, and are therefore safer. More than 127,000 Arizonans have concealed-weapons permits, according to the Arizona Department of Public Safety.

Arizonans are also allowed to openly carry guns — on a belt or holster, for example. But those people would still not be allowed in bars or restaurants serving alcohol if they're armed.

The bill has been approved by the Senate and is now before the House; Republican Gov. Jan Brewer would still have to OK it.

Marc Peagler, owner of the Silver Spur Saloon Restaurant in Cave Creek outside Phoenix, said he's in favor of the legislation and sees some marketing potential in it.

"I look at it this way — let's just say for a moment you're a crook or a thief," Peagler said. "Are you going to break into a place where you know that there might be 10 to 15 people who are armed? I wouldn't do that."
Peagler, a gun owner himself, said people with concealed-weapons permits aren't people to be concerned about.

"People who carry concealed weapons for the most part are your general law-abiding citizens, and the people who are going to break the law are going to do it no matter what laws we have out there," he said. "If somebody has been drinking and they have a weapon in the car, they're just going to go out and get it."

Frank Murray, owner of Seamus McCaffrey's Irish Pub & Restaurant in downtown Phoenix, said he opposes the law and will prohibit his customers from coming in armed.

"It's kind of like the Wild West days," he said. "We've got enough nuts out on the street walking around with guns. We don't need them in places with alcohol and families."


The Arizona Licensed Beverage Association threw its support behind the bill after some compromises were made this week. The Arizona Restaurant Association has taken a neutral stance, but in previous years came out against most bills that would have allowed guns in bars and restaurants with alcohol.

This year's bill is one of several measures loosening gun laws moving through the Arizona Legislature.

In May, the House overwhelmingly approved a bill that would permit gun owners to keep a weapon out of sight in a locked vehicle in a parking lot or garage. That would override employers that ban weapons on their property.
Last week, a Senate committee approved a bill that would allow Arizonans to carry concealed weapons without state permits, despite objections from law enforcement.

[Gary_Busey]

What a horrible idea.

[Das Kahlua]

What a horrible idea.

Horribly awesome?

[Hanover Fist]

So horrible that they are the 40th state to pass such a law?

The bill is part of a nationwide push by the National Rifle Association. Georgia passed a similar law in 2008, as did Tennessee earlier this year in becoming the 40th state to allow bar or restaurant patrons to carry guns.

[shimian]

It's possible that with this law in place, people would be less likely to get drunk in a bar. Either that or a huge gunfight will break out and everyone with a gun gets shot.

[Morfin]

Youtube video = Double awesome

[Gary_Busey]

So horrible that they are the 40th state to pass such a law?
I don't see how that makes it any less of a horrible idea.

[tockit]

I don't see how that makes it any less of a horrible idea.
Some people just can't handle law abiding citizens carrying firearms.

They need the government to tell them how and when they can carry their guns.

Dude, hypothetically, if a concealed carry permit holder carrys a gun into a bar, gets drunk then pulls his gun out unprovoked (meaning his life or someone elses life is not in mortal danger), hes going to jail, period.

They don't give these permits to just anyone. FBI background checks are required, fingerpriniting, mental health checks, firearm handling/safety/proficiency courses, etc.

You f--k up one time with this permit, and you can forget about owning another handgun.

It's no different than an undercover cop carrying a gun into a bar.

The bad guys are likely going to have weapons, why not let the law abiding citizens carry their weapon if they so wish?

[Insomniac]

Drinking and carrying a weapon = sweet man!
Drinking and driving = douchebag fag

Never change, America.

[shimian]

Hopefully if you're going to get hammered while carrying a weapon, you'll be too drunk to shoot straight.

[HAWK]

Some people just can't handle law abiding citizens carrying firearms.

They need the government to tell them how and when they can carry their guns.

Dude, hypothetically, if a concealed carry permit holder carrys a gun into a bar, gets drunk then pulls his gun out unprovoked (meaning his life or someone elses life is not in mortal danger), hes going to jail, period.

They don't give these permits to just anyone. FBI background checks are required, fingerpriniting, mental health checks, firearm handling/safety/proficiency courses, etc.

You f--k up one time with this permit, and you can forget about owning another handgun.

It's no different than an undercover cop carrying a gun into a bar.

The bad guys are likely going to have weapons, why not let the law abiding citizens carry their weapon if they so wish?

Agreed. However, most people supporting these types of bills are seeing it from the "dining" viewpoint--not just shootouts in a bar. If I'm at my local steakhouse that serves alcohol, I should be able to carry my concealed handgun.

I say: Why not?

[BIG PIZZLE]

I dont see why you need to carry a gun to dinner. If take my gun out, I'm either going to the range or I am going to put a bunch of holes in someone.

[redsox39]

Well, so far so good on the other 39 states with "drinking while armed" laws.

[Skinny Banana]

that's gotta be the dumbest thing ever..ok so a guy (or girl) can have a concealed firearm while getting wasted at a bar... someone starts talkin shit to them, they get in a argument and as we all know alcohol fucks up judgement so who's gonna be to blame when said wasted gun-toting bar patron decided to end shit with a bang? them? oh they should've been more responsible...nooo the lawmakers need to be more responsible n not let life-threating shit like this to happen..its almost like legalizing drunk driving

[Archangel]

Some people just can't handle law abiding citizens carrying firearms.

They need the government to tell them how and when they can carry their guns.

Is the whole concept of monopoly on violence unknown in America?

Jesus Christ, the Wild West is over, you barbarians.

[J.G.]

that's gotta be the dumbest thing ever..ok so a guy (or girl) can have a concealed firearm while getting wasted at a bar...

You apparently missed the part about the CWP holder not drinking!

someone starts talkin shit to them, they get in a argument and as we all know alcohol fucks up judgement so who's gonna be to blame when said wasted gun-toting bar patron decided to end shit with a bang? them? oh they should've been more responsible...nooo the lawmakers need to be more responsible n not let life-threating shit like this to happen..its almost like legalizing drunk driving

The whole point behind the law is that the CWP holder should have the ability to protect themselves in case NON law-abiding people become a threat.

[billy1980]

There have been like 15 known cases where there were shootouts at a bar or local dining establishment and one of the people that got shot in each was a CWP holder. They got shot because they had their gun in their car. They should have been able to defend themselves.

[Archangel]

Or, you could try to teach people to reason instead of shooting up the place because someone spilt your beer.

[HAWK]

Criminals choose to live outside the teachings of society. We're not talking about defending one's person from the police or spilt beer--we're talking about defense against criminals. The laws of the land, and common sense for that matter, don't apply. The Wild West has nothing to do with it. Criminals ignore the laws, that's why they're criminals.

[J.G.]

Is the whole concept of monopoly on violence unknown in America?

Jesus Christ, the Wild West is over, you barbarians.

People are shot in countries that have gun bans. Usually by criminals or terrorists...You know, the ones we barbaric Americans want to protect ourselves against.

[Archangel]

Um, that's why in civilised countries, you pay taxes to maintain a police force, which punishes criminals for their acts. I am all for gun ownership, but the arguments are ridiculous.

And seriously, if someone is mugging you at gunpoint, going for your own piece is the quickest way I can think of to get yourself shot. Odds are, the perp's weapon is drawn, and yours isn't, at which point having a gun on you is about as useful as having it in a locked drawer at home - unless you have a compulsive need to play macho, that is, in which case the removal of your genes from the pool might not be such a bad idea after all.

Or, don't go to places where criminals hang out. I have never sat in a pub, thinking, "shit, I wish I had a gun on me right now".

As for the n00b, sure. But the rest of the civilised world put together probably has less gun deaths than the US alone.

[Archangel]

I mean, what are the priorities here? Frankly, I'd be far more scared of a drunk redneck with a gun than of any hypothetical crimes I might fall victim to.

Also, n00b, name an instance in which gun ownership would have prevented "terrorism", you FOX-indoctrinated jackass. Honestly, I want to know how a .38 in your pants prevents a hidden bomb on a train from going off. How fucking paranoid do you have to be to need a gun to feel safe from something which has killed less Americans in 10 years than Americans with guns kill in 10 months?

[HAWK]

Um, that's why in civilised countries, you pay taxes to maintain a police force, which punishes criminals for their acts. I am all for gun ownership, but the arguments are ridiculous.

And seriously, if someone is mugging you at gunpoint, going for your own piece is the quickest way I can think of to get yourself shot. Odds are, the perp's weapon is drawn, and yours isn't, at which point having a gun on you is about as useful as having it in a locked drawer at home - unless you have a compulsive need to play macho, that is, in which case the removal of your genes from the pool might not be such a bad idea after all.

Or, don't go to places where criminals hang out. I have never sat in a pub, thinking, "shit, I wish I had a gun on me right now".

As for the n00b, sure. But the rest of the civilised world put together probably has less gun deaths than the US alone.

For me and my wife, we own our own business and carry cash deposits daily. Different times during the year we can leave our business very late, i.e. 3am. It's these times that I'm glad to have a handgun. Reason number 2: While I live in a nice neighborhood, my one neighbor is a complete cunt. You can only threaten to kill me so many times before I take you seriously. Yes I've called the police many times...but in the end I don't trust them to protect my family when their response time is 10 minutes.

It's not about fear, it's about protecting my wife and children from a cold and sick world.

[Archangel]

For me and my wife, we own our own business and carry cash deposits daily. Different times during the year we can leave our business very late, i.e. 3am. It's these times that I'm glad to have a handgun. Reason number 2: While I live in a nice neighborhood, my one neighbor is a complete cunt. You can only threaten to kill me so many times before I take you seriously. Yes I've called the police many times...but in the end I don't trust them to protect my family when their response time is 10 minutes.

It's not about fear, it's about protecting my wife and children from a cold and sick world.

Very good points, mate. If you carry large sums of cash on your person, it's only natural to want to protect your hard earned money. That is indeed a valid argument - and the reason why people who do have to transport that much money are allowed to carry guns even in countries with very strict gun laws.
However, we're talking about bars in Arizona here. I doubt that many patrons of roadside bars and such carry thousands of dollars on them - if someone wants your $20 cash and $80 watch, why not just give them to him?

As for your neighbour, ask yourself: Would you be just as afraid of him if it would be nigh on impossible for him to get a firearm? It's circular reasoning, in my opinion. You need guns because other people have guns. There is simply no equation in which guns are out of the picture entirely. Honestly, I am nowhere near smart enough to propose a solution to gun violence in a country with a quarter of a million firearms in private hands.

[Das Kahlua]

Is the whole concept of monopoly on violence unknown in America?

Jesus Christ, the Wild West is over, you barbarians.

*clears throat*

http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homicides/map

And NYC doesn't even lead the country in homicide rate. The Wild West has nothing on what's going on in cities all over the US.

[Archangel]

*clears throat*

http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homicides/map

And NYC doesn't even lead the country in homicide rate. The Wild West has nothing on what's going on in cities all over the US.

Well, it's logical that when more people are piled on top of each other, there's gonna be more friction.

Of course crime rates - including homicides are higher in cities. But what do I care whether I get shot by some drunk idiot in a bar in downtown Phoenix, or some dive out in the country? All I'm saying is that mixing guns and booze is a bad idea.

[Das Kahlua]

Well, it's logical that when more people are piled on top of each other, there's gonna be more friction.

Of course crime rates - including homicides are higher in cities. But what do I care whether I get shot by some drunk idiot in a bar in downtown Phoenix, or some dive out in the country? All I'm saying is that mixing guns and booze is a bad idea.

Oh, granted, I think it's a horrible idea. Moreover, I think that (shocker) people should be responsible for exercising some discipline and common sense. If you plan on going out drinking in a place so dangerous that you need to be packing heat, maybe you should choose a different watering hole, or just stay at home.

I don't know how much organizations like the NRA truly care about people having the right to carry guns in bars, or are just worried that it'll be the classic 'slippery slope,' that once guns are restricted in some places it becomes easier to restrict them in all places. I don't know their motivations, but it does seem like a rather silly 'victory.'

[HAWK]

Very good points, mate. If you carry large sums of cash on your person, it's only natural to want to protect your hard earned money. That is indeed a valid argument - and the reason why people who do have to transport that much money are allowed to carry guns even in countries with very strict gun laws.
However, we're talking about bars in Arizona here. I doubt that many patrons of roadside bars and such carry thousands of dollars on them - if someone wants your $20 cash and $80 watch, why not just give them to him?

You're probably right.

As for your neighbour, ask yourself: Would you be just as afraid of him if it would be nigh on impossible for him to get a firearm? It's circular reasoning, in my opinion. You need guns because other people have guns. There is simply no equation in which guns are out of the picture entirely. Honestly, I am nowhere near smart enough to propose a solution to gun violence in a country with a quarter of a million firearms in private hands.

I have no evidence either way if he owns a gun or not. IMO, a butcher knife is just as effective if he charges my wife (which he has done sans knife). So no, it's not just that he might have a firearm. Like I said, you can only scream that you're going "to kill me" until the veins are popping out on your forehead so many times before I take you seriously.

[IdiotBrain]

Thing about America is, even if we could get rid of the quarter of a million guns that we know about... which thank god we can't and hopefully won't....

We'd only get more from Mexico.

[HAWK]

Accidents happen. But gun violence among law abiding citizens isn't the problem.

[J.G.]

Also, n00b, name an instance in which gun ownership would have prevented "terrorism", you FOX-indoctrinated jackass. Honestly, I want to know how a .38 in your pants prevents a hidden bomb on a train from going off. How fucking paranoid do you have to be to need a gun to feel safe from something which has killed less Americans in 10 years than Americans with guns kill in 10 months?

http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0609/628151.html

So you see bOOB, not all terrorist use bombs. They can pop up anywhere at anytime.
I personally have never felt the need for a CWP, but I do like knowing that I didn't allow my government to take my right to own a firearm from me.

[tockit]

Well, it's logical that when more people are piled on top of each other, there's gonna be more friction.

Of course crime rates - including homicides are higher in cities. But what do I care whether I get shot by some drunk idiot in a bar in downtown Phoenix, or some dive out in the country? All I'm saying is that mixing guns and booze is a bad idea.
If you knew anything about what you were talking about, you would know that its illegal to carry a concealed weapon and consume alcohol or any mind-altering drug.

So, for the law abiding citizen, mixing guns and booze isn't an issue.

For the criminal, they'll do whatever they please, hence the label 'criminal'.

[Debo]

Thing about America is, even if we could get rid of the quarter of a million guns that we know about... which thank god we can't and hopefully won't....

We'd only get more from Mexico.

Too bad Mexico buys its guns from us.

To Arch: Nobody is talking about letting people drink and shoot. Right now, where you can and cannot carry a firearm is restricted by the laws of the state that you live in. If you don't like the laws, move.

Why should you not be allowed to carry a gun into a bar if you are not drinking? If you shoot someone in a bar, a parking lot or in their driveway, you are still going to jail. Is murder more appropriate in certain venues? Should the same restrictions apply to a sporting event?

What you are overlooking is that those that shoot innocent people don't give a shit if it is illegal to carry a gun in a bar. They are already breaking the law by murdering people. Why would they care about a misdemeanor when they are committing felonies?

I don't think that we should go back to the days of the Wild West. However, I also don't need the government to tell me when and where I can carry a firearm (Like they did in NYC and they do here in DC).

[HAWK]

I think we all agree that CCW's are meant to protect the innocent from the criminal element. I think the "other side" is mainly complaining/fearful of the redneck/thug Jack Bauer wannabes in the world. Those are the types that give the rest of us a bad name.

And honestly, anyone packing heat in a bar is probably up to no good anyways.

[Okie Medicvet]

Hopefully if you're going to get hammered while carrying a weapon, you'll be too drunk to shoot straight.

especially if you're Dick Cheney.