BA degrees waste of time?

[freegood]

For Most People, College Is a Waste of Time
By CHARLES MURRAY
August 13, 2008; Page A17
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121858688764535107.html?mod=fpa_mostpop

Imagine that America had no system of post-secondary education, and you were a member of a task force assigned to create one from scratch. One of your colleagues submits this proposal:

First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn't meet the goal. We will call the goal a "BA."

You would conclude that your colleague was cruel, not to say insane. But that's the system we have in place.

Finding a better way should be easy. The BA acquired its current inflated status by accident. Advanced skills for people with brains really did get more valuable over the course of the 20th century, but the acquisition of those skills got conflated with the existing system of colleges, which had evolved the BA for completely different purposes.

Outside a handful of majors -- engineering and some of the sciences -- a bachelor's degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance. Even a degree in a vocational major like business administration can mean anything from a solid base of knowledge to four years of barely remembered gut courses.

The solution is not better degrees, but no degrees. Young people entering the job market should have a known, trusted measure of their qualifications they can carry into job interviews. That measure should express what they know, not where they learned it or how long it took them. They need a certification, not a degree.

The model is the CPA exam that qualifies certified public accountants. The same test is used nationwide. It is thorough -- four sections, timed, totaling 14 hours. A passing score indicates authentic competence (the pass rate is below 50%). Actual scores are reported in addition to pass/fail, so that employers can assess where the applicant falls in the distribution of accounting competence. You may have learned accounting at an anonymous online university, but your CPA score gives you a way to show employers you're a stronger applicant than someone from an Ivy League school.

The merits of a CPA-like certification exam apply to any college major for which the BA is now used as a job qualification. To name just some of them: criminal justice, social work, public administration and the many separate majors under the headings of business, computer science and education. Such majors accounted for almost two-thirds of the bachelor's degrees conferred in 2005. For that matter, certification tests can be used for purely academic disciplines. Why not present graduate schools with certifications in microbiology or economics -- and who cares if the applicants passed the exam after studying in the local public library?

Certification tests need not undermine the incentives to get a traditional liberal-arts education. If professional and graduate schools want students who have acquired one, all they need do is require certification scores in the appropriate disciplines. Students facing such requirements are likely to get a much better liberal education than even our most elite schools require now.

Certification tests will not get rid of the problems associated with differences in intellectual ability: People with high intellectual ability will still have an edge. Graduates of prestigious colleges will still, on average, have higher certification scores than people who have taken online courses -- just because prestigious colleges attract intellectually talented applicants.

But that's irrelevant to the larger issue. Under a certification system, four years is not required, residence is not required, expensive tuitions are not required, and a degree is not required. Equal educational opportunity means, among other things, creating a society in which it's what you know that makes the difference. Substituting certifications for degrees would be a big step in that direction.

The incentives are right. Certification tests would provide all employers with valuable, trustworthy information about job applicants. They would benefit young people who cannot or do not want to attend a traditional four-year college. They would be welcomed by the growing post-secondary online educational industry, which cannot offer the halo effect of a BA from a traditional college, but can realistically promise their students good training for a certification test -- as good as they are likely to get at a traditional college, for a lot less money and in a lot less time.

Certification tests would disadvantage just one set of people: Students who have gotten into well-known traditional schools, but who are coasting through their years in college and would score poorly on a certification test. Disadvantaging them is an outcome devoutly to be wished.

No technical barriers stand in the way of evolving toward a system where certification tests would replace the BA. Hundreds of certification tests already exist, for everything from building code inspectors to advanced medical specialties. The problem is a shortage of tests that are nationally accepted, like the CPA exam.

But when so many of the players would benefit, a market opportunity exists. If a high-profile testing company such as the Educational Testing Service were to reach a strategic decision to create definitive certification tests, it could coordinate with major employers, professional groups and nontraditional universities to make its tests the gold standard. A handful of key decisions could produce a tipping effect. Imagine if Microsoft announced it would henceforth require scores on a certain battery of certification tests from all of its programming applicants. Scores on that battery would acquire instant credibility for programming job applicants throughout the industry.

An educational world based on certification tests would be a better place in many ways, but the overarching benefit is that the line between college and noncollege competencies would be blurred. Hardly any jobs would still have the BA as a requirement for a shot at being hired. Opportunities would be wider and fairer, and the stigma of not having a BA would diminish.

Most important in an increasingly class-riven America: The demonstration of competency in business administration or European history would, appropriately, take on similarities to the demonstration of competency in cooking or welding. Our obsession with the BA has created a two-tiered entry to adulthood, anointing some for admission to the club and labeling the rest as second-best.

Here's the reality: Everyone in every occupation starts as an apprentice. Those who are good enough become journeymen. The best become master craftsmen. This is as true of business executives and history professors as of chefs and welders. Getting rid of the BA and replacing it with evidence of competence -- treating post-secondary education as apprenticeships for everyone -- is one way to help us to recognize that common bond

[nitz]

I initially thought mine was a waste of time/$$/resources. However, I found my current job through my last instructor. While the degree itself wasn't very stimulating or satisfying, I never would have met that last instructor who, in a roundabout way, helped me get my job (which I actually like a quite a bit).

[Sarxos]

I have a BA in accounting which helped me get through my CPA.

[kid_vidrio]

I have a BA in Sociology with both got me my job and helps me understand the mindset behind many of the useless pinheads on here.
It doesn't help me like people any more, but at least I get why the do/say what they do.
Haliburton laughed at me at a job fair before I ran circles around them interpreting their own data. The idea that "Arts" degree en masse are a waste is ludicrous. Like everything else, it's how you apply yourself. I prefer to hire people with some notion of languages and arts and such. Especially in Advertising, PR and Sales. If you need an engineer, that's a different matter obviously.

[Mr. Brown]

Depends on the degree. As others have said its about contacts and networking and learning to work with people your forced to work with that you would normally not interact with. I agree with certifications over degrees b/c it lets people know you can actually do the work your going to face not theoretically

[smith42687]

I have a BA in accounting which helped me get through my CPA.

I've been complaining about the silver pedastal American Academia is on for years.


My BA in accounting didn't do shit for me. I spent 3 years flying through bullshit classes like "Medieval Heroes and Villians" and "Guitar" to get stuck with some shitty 'professors' in Auditing, Management Acty, and Information Systems Acty. Nearly all of them were on ego trips and liked the kinds of power and influence they got from "tenure" because they could never have come close to that in an actual firm.

It was a big waste of my time and money because I could have easily acquired all of this information in a 1 year focus program similar to what Becker offers currently. The BEC section teaches a large portion of general business concepts, just expand what is being taught to replace the general information (though all of my general business classes were show up and get A's because they were that uninformative.) I have never taken the actual course, but I hear it's not too different from the CD's I got. It was spending time going through questions on the CD and the flashcards that gave me the best benefit when I started working, not anything I did in school.

[Infotainment]

What this article doesn't mention is to get a CPA in accounting in America you have to have 150 hours of classroom time. It used to be you could just take it without a degree and if you could pass you would get a CPA but now you need at least a BS or BA in accounting plus some extra time in masters classes or continuing education classes before you can receive your license. In accounting, the Masters in accounting is the new BA.

I have a BA in accounting which helped me get through my CPA.

I thought in Amsterdam they had "chartered accountants" like the majority of Europe not CPAs?

[smith42687]

Depends on the degree. As others have said its about contacts and networking and learning to work with people your forced to work with that you would normally not interact with. I agree with certifications over degrees b/c it lets people know you can actually do the work your going to face not theoretically

But that's why we have problems in industries and why companies are so inefficient at hiring people. There is still too much reliance on the 'good old boys' network. The Ivy Babies are the ones who fucked up the Investment Banks because they're the only ones who can work at the Investment Banks. They got in there because of who their parents are and what school they went to, not because they had ability.

Moving to a certification system is a move towards egalitarianism. With our ever-decreasing influence and power in the global markets, I would not be surprised if it came within my lifetime. Maybe not here, but definitely somewhere.

[kid_vidrio]

I thought you worked construction in Maui.
I spent summers doing that. I grew up in that trade and my brother is still there. When I finished my degree, I spent six months doing some marketing for a buddy of mine. In the 90's, I took two companies public, both Internet, so I had some background in helping him out there. Then I took on a software project that led to one in NY that led to a my current job managing a sales team for one of the largest online advertising networks in the world.
Strange journey, and a BA was a big part of it.
Still, after a few years here, I'll head back to an island. I prefer that pace of life.

[smith42687]

What this article doesn't mention is to get a CPA in accounting in America you have to have 150 hours of classroom time. It used to be you could just take it without a degree and if you could pass you would get a CPA but now you need at least a BS or BA in accounting plus some extra time in classes before you can receive your license. In accounting, the Masters in accounting is the new BA.



I thought in Amsterdam they had "chartered accountants" like the majority of Europe not CPAs.


Yeah, the 150 rule is such bullshit. You don't need 150 in some states, and you can even take the test 60 days prior to graduating with 120 (demonstrating that completion of the degree is meaningless, just a hoop to jump through). That rule is a perfect example as to degree of control the academic world has on the business world. Unfortunately, there is no data to support that people with high GPAs from prestigious schools do any better than anyone else, at least at the Big Four - according two of the US CEO's that I've heard. Internships was the only thing that had a correlation of who makes partner, meaning those who get into working and apprenticing faster are the ones who are more likely to succeed. Plus, the jump from the "I'm in college, let's get drunk and have lots of sex" to "I live at my job" is less of a transition to those who do it while still in college.

[Sarxos]

I thought in Amsterdam they had "chartered accountants" like the majority of Europe not CPAs?

My qualification is Irish but yeah they do. My chartered accountant qualification is instantly transferable to CPA should I decide to work Stateside.

[Night Hawk]

That measure should express what they know, not where they learned it or how long it took them. They need a certification, not a degree.

The model is the CPA exam that qualifies certified public accountants. The same test is used nationwide. It is thorough -- four sections, timed, totaling 14 hours.



Your solution is a little contradictory... If its not about how long it took, then why time the certification? And secondly, Just because someone got a degree, that does not mean you know how long it took them.

[Infotainment]

Nearly all of them were on ego trips and liked the kinds of power and influence they got from "tenure" because they could never have come close to that in an actual firm.




I've only had one professor that's actually worked at a big four firm. I had a few adjunct professors that owned their own firms but didn't work at a big four. A lot of Professors deal strictly with Theory (hence the doctrate degrees) and really have no idea how it works in real life. The majority of my professors have never set foot in a nationwide firm they came straight out of their doctrate program into a teaching job.

[kid_vidrio]

Unfortunately, there is no data to support that people with high GPAs from prestigious schools do any better than anyone else, at least at the Big Four - according two of the US CEO's that I've heard.
The knowledge is similar, the connections are different.
If you have an ivy league econ/finance degree, you are probably close to an ivy league judge (as in most of the supreme court and the whole system that leads there) which can be very useful in a big corporation.
it is very much about relationships when it gets down to the nitty gritty.

[smith42687]

Your solution is a little contradictory... If its not about how long it took, then why time the certification? And secondly, Just because someone got a degree, that does not mean you know how long it took them.

The certification is timed to ensure that the person taking the test is the one who has acquired the knowledge. This isn't a "take home test" that your parents do for you.... The timing is more than enough for the average person. I had nearly an hour left on all of my exams, and nobody that I know who took it ran out of time (I've worked for two of the Big Four and asked nearly everyone I worked with).

[Night Hawk]

I've only had one professor that's actually worked at a big four firm. I had a few adjunct professors that owned their own firms but didn't work at a big four. A lot of Professors deal strictly with Theory (hence the doctrate degrees) and really have no idea how it works in real life. The majority of my professors have never set foot in a nationwide firm they came straight out of their doctrate program into a teaching job.


Im sorry... then go to a better University. We dont seem to have that problem.

Dude, doctoral programs ARE their real world experience by the way... The amount of Real World research they have to do. They have to work under someone and come up withtheir own new theories based on their WORK. You act like people can get doctorate degrees fromcracker jack boxes.

[Infotainment]

Yeah, the 150 rule is such bullshit. You don't need 150 in some states, and you can even take the test 60 days prior to graduating with 120 (demonstrating that completion of the degree is meaningless, just a hoop to jump through). That rule is a perfect example as to degree of control the academic world has on the business world. Unfortunately, there is no data to support that people with high GPAs from prestigious schools do any better than anyone else, at least at the Big Four - according two of the US CEO's that I've heard. Internships was the only thing that had a correlation of who makes partner, meaning those who get into working and apprenticing faster are the ones who are more likely to succeed. Plus, the jump from the "I'm in college, let's get drunk and have lots of sex" to "I live at my job" is less of a transition to those who do it while still in college.


The masters degree program I'm finishing up with right now supposedly has the highest pass rate for first time CPA exam takers. It's something like 70%, when the national average for first time passers for the CPA is like 23%. I only know one person who didn't have to retake a section on the exam. By statistics it's harder than the BAR exam.

[smith42687]

it is very much about relationships when it gets down to the nitty gritty.

Right... and that's a problem for the US. Networking has become more important than ability. We cannot afford to have under qualified people making decisions for US companies, regardless of where they went to school, if we want to compete globally. The whole point of employment laws is to minimize prejudice hiring and promoting practices, but due to the reliance on the educational degree, we still haven't come up with a way to minimize the hiring of under qualified people.

[kid_vidrio]

Right... and that's a problem for the US. Networking has become more important than ability. We cannot afford to have under qualified people making decisions for US companies, regardless of where they went to school, if we want to compete globally. The whole point of employment laws is to minimize prejudice hiring and promoting practices, but due to the reliance on the educational degree, we still haven't come up with a way to minimize the hiring of under qualified people.
i don't think they are under qualified, but if you can hire someone with the same degree who has connections (and maybe a family house in the vineyard and the caribbean) why wouldn't you?

[smith42687]

The masters degree program I'm finishing up with right now supposedly has the highest pass rate for first time CPA exam takers. It's something like 70%, when the national average for first time passers for the CPA is like 23%. I only know one person who didn't have to retake a section on the exam. By statistics it's harder than the BAR exam.

Just use Becker. I've always done extremely well on standardized tests - 1550 SAT (back when it was only 1600), 35 ACT, 174 LSAT, 740 GMAT, so the CPA test was nothing special - 95 FIN, 94 REG, 97 AUD, 99 BEC.

If you've signed with a Big Four, they all pay for you to get it and they're moving towards decent 'passing bonuses' for completing all sections within your first few years.

The reason why the test is so hard is because people are trying to rely on their educational backgrounds when taking it instead of using a form of instruction actually designed to improve their score on the test. The rates of people who use a Becker type program are closer to 75%-80%.

[smith42687]

i don't think they are under qualified, but if you can hire someone with the same degree who has connections (and maybe a family house in the vineyard and the caribbean) why wouldn't you?

Because a degree doesn't mean anything to me. I interned at a Fortune-500 that does its hiring SOLELY on Gallup profiling. They don't give a shit where you went to school or what your GPA was. They want to know where you stand on a psychological profile because they know what profile your boss and their boss are on.

GPA and Degree are over-rated, and employers are tired of making very expensive mistakes. That's why this issue won't go away.

[Penguin Rick]

Can anyone tell me the benefit of getting a Master's in engineering? I plan on getting a BA in engineering (I'm going to be a college freshman this year), and after working a few years would like to pursue an MBA. But at Northwestern, there's a 5-year masters program for engineering, so it's only one more year of classes. But is it worth it?

[kid_vidrio]

If you want to go into mgmt, it's probably a must.
If you are content to top out amongst the managed ranks, don't bother.
If you are looking at an MBA, you prolly have mgmt aspirations, and personally, I expect that would serve you better than a masters in eng. Either way, with a BA in Eng, you will get no respect from engineers as you move up the ladder, so either get a BS or prepare to deal with it.

[nuclearjew]

Is there such a thing as a BA in Engineering?

[Penguin Rick]

Is BS the Bachelors? That's the 4 year program I'm going to be in. I'm not sure what a BA is.

[kid_vidrio]

Is there such a thing as a BA in Engineering?
I've never heard of it, but google says.....yes.

[kid_vidrio]

I plan on getting a BA in engineering
Is BS the Bachelors?
i'm going to be a freshman
do you want fries with that?
You have an interesting journey before you, penguin-san.

[Debo]

Yeah, the 150 rule is such bullshit. You don't need 150 in some states, and you can even take the test 60 days prior to graduating with 120 (demonstrating that completion of the degree is meaningless, just a hoop to jump through). That rule is a perfect example as to degree of control the academic world has on the business world. Unfortunately, there is no data to support that people with high GPAs from prestigious schools do any better than anyone else, at least at the Big Four - according two of the US CEO's that I've heard. Internships was the only thing that had a correlation of who makes partner, meaning those who get into working and apprenticing faster are the ones who are more likely to succeed. Plus, the jump from the "I'm in college, let's get drunk and have lots of sex" to "I live at my job" is less of a transition to those who do it while still in college.

The CPA exam is a barrier to entry to prevent non-CPAs from performing the tasks the CPAs perform. I am studying for the CPA exam right now, I am part of the problem.

NY had the 120 HR rule, but it is going to the 150 hour rule. Not that I care, I have over 200 hours under my belt. NY also requires two years of audit to qualify for the CPA exam (one year for anyone with a masters in accounting...like me).

College is important if you want a career in the corporate world. It isn't important if you want to become a plumber where knowledge of the profession and job skills are much more relevant than knowing how to record debts or credits could ever be.

I will say that guys that want to become mechanics, plumbers, electricians, etc. should take some basic business courses if they want to run their own business. They might be good at fixing a leaky sink, but running a business requires an entirely different skill set. They should have some exposure to the concepts to ensure that their business runs smoothly.

Lets also remember that their is an education premium paid by employers for graduates of certain schools. If you have an MBA from Wharton, you are going to pull down 200K plus right out of grad school. What you majored in and where you went to school have a huge impact on your future earning potential in the business world.

[Penguin Rick]

What's the difference between at Bachelor's of Art and a Bachelor's of Science?

[Pollo]

Is there such a thing as a BA in Engineering?

oh yeah, definitely. I've seen it commonly in liberal arts colleges and some Cal State universities here.

What's the difference between at Bachelor's of Art and a Bachelor's of Science?

I really would like to know as well. I know a friend of mine that has a BA in Chem and I have a BS in Chem. it seems to me BA programs are a little simpler and not as complex as BS programs especially if you're going into natural sciences/engineering. I hate to make it sound like a minor/major analogy, but it's something along the lines of that in terms of the programs.

I can't speak for humanities/social sciences since I've never seen BS degrees awarded to those professions, but I may be wrong.

[Rover]

Some background: I have a BS in Mechanical engineering. I graduated 4 years ago.
Can anyone tell me the benefit of getting a Master's in engineering? I plan on getting a BA in engineering (I'm going to be a college freshman this year), and after working a few years would like to pursue an MBA. But at Northwestern, there's a 5-year masters program for engineering, so it's only one more year of classes. But is it worth it?There is no way of knowing this until you start taking classes. You might think that engineering is for you, but after a year or 3 decide that it sucks math and physics balls. I didn't take an actual engineering class until the end of my 2nd year. During your 3rd year, you should start to consider the 5 year master. Or the 8yr phD. There is no reason to make that decision now. You can plan your classes with the possibility that a graduate degree is in your future, but the classes you need for your MS won't happen until the end of your 4th year anyway.

Also, sometimes it takes longer than 4 years to get your BS in engineering. I took 5 years because I liked to have fun and not spend my nights consumed with how fluids flow through nozzles, unless it was barley and hops flavored and had a tap involved. I think that an engineering degree is one of the longest to get on average. I read that somewhere. It makes sense to me. Most everyone I knew took 4.5-5.5 years.

If you want to go into mgmt, it's probably a must.
If you are content to top out amongst the managed ranks, don't bother.
If you are looking at an MBA, you prolly have mgmt aspirations, and personally, I expect that would serve you better than a masters in eng. Either way, with a BA in Eng, you will get no respect from engineers as you move up the ladder, so either get a BS or prepare to deal with it.Yes, a master's of some type is probably going to be necessary to move up the mgmt tree. I have had bosses with an MBA, and an MBA and MS, and a boss with like a million years of experience.

I'm thinking about going back to get my MS and MBA, but I probably won't until after I get my PE license.

Is there such a thing as a BA in Engineering?Yes.

What's the difference between at Bachelor's of Art and a Bachelor's of Science?The amount of math you do. That's the only real difference. The BA is going to be more humanities intensive. The BS is going to be more partial ordinary differential equations intensive. The BA is supposed to demonstrate that you are "more rounded" as a graduate. In reality, it means you pussied out on the hard math classes so you could take early 20th century poetry.

If you really want an answer as it relates to your school, talk to the program advisors. They'll know the answer.

I really would like to know as well. I know a friend of mine that has a BA in Chem and I have a BS in Chem. it seems to me BA programs are a little simpler and not as complex as BS programs especially if you're going into natural sciences/engineering. I hate to make it sound like a minor/major analogy, but it's something along the lines of that in terms of the programs.

I can't speak for humanities/social sciences since I've never seen BS degrees awarded to those professions, but I may be wrong.Yes, some schools offer BS's in SS. The difference is in the math requirements for the degree. They (BS's) probably aren't as common, but they are out there.

[smith42687]

The CPA exam is a barrier to entry to prevent non-CPAs from performing the tasks the CPAs perform. I am studying for the CPA exam right now, I am part of the problem.

NY had the 120 HR rule, but it is going to the 150 hour rule. Not that I care, I have over 200 hours under my belt. NY also requires two years of audit to qualify for the CPA exam (one year for anyone with a masters in accounting...like me).

Just register in a different state (like Colorado), and have your scores transferred. It's a national test and accepted nationally. That's what I did to get around the state of IL. It's much more difficult to pass the exams while your working full-time, and don't even think about it during Audit busy season (if that's what you go into).

Lets also remember that their is an education premium paid by employers for graduates of certain schools. If you have an MBA from Wharton, you are going to pull down 200K plus right out of grad school. What you majored in and where you went to school have a huge impact on your future earning potential in the business world.That's the whole point of my argument. Employers are tired of paying a premium for people who under perform. I have yet to see a study that shows people with high GPA's from 'prestigious' schools do better than those without. I'm not arguing that people who go that route make more money, that's obviously true. I'm arguing that the money they make is due to inefficiencies in the hiring and promotion process, brought on by a system that is not egalitarian; as in networking and who you know is more important than what you are capable of. Companies can be better for less money. They just have to look beyond the diploma and onto the actual candidate. Psychological profiling and certifications are a way to do just that.

[Pollo]

you can definitely speak on behave on engineering, but for a science program, it seems my friends look fewer labs/lectures/electives to get a BA rather a BS.

[Rover]

Yeah. I kind of lumped science/math into one category called "math" everything else is "not math." Your friends probably do take less labs/chemistry lectures to get a BA.

[nuclearjew]

I'd imagine that a BA in Engineering isn't well respected. That's probably a business major who has dabbled in bits of engineering. "Industrial Engineers".

[Pollo]

I'd imagine that a BA in Engineering isn't well respected. That's probably a business major who has dabbled in bits of engineering. "Industrial Engineers".

I can't imagine it is and I'm sure scientists feel the same way. now that I'm seeking employment, I've actually been asked if I earned a BS or BA in Chem, so employeers also take great stock in BS degrees in science/engineering fields.

[Rover]

With all the shit we gave people who weren't pursuing science degrees, I can't imagine what we would have said about people who were going for a BA in Engineering.

[wlack]

If I was recruiting engineers - BA's would not get a look in - I want to know that they can design something that won't fall over/break or collapse....

At best a degree shows that the person can use their brain - at worst it shows they have a functioning liver

[nuclearjew]

"How does this bridge support make you feel?"

[awonderful]

I have a BA in philosophy that has me working in human genetics lab. Worthless degree

[Debo]

Just register in a different state (like Colorado), and have your scores transferred. It's a national test and accepted nationally. That's what I did to get around the state of IL. It's much more difficult to pass the exams while your working full-time, and don't even think about it during Audit busy season (if that's what you go into).

Thanks. I am taking it in NY. I have already received my NTR from NASBA. And I am already scheduled all four parts of the exam in NY.

I do work in audit, for now. I am trying to transfer within my firm to one of the finance groups (valuations or restructuring). And yes, it would be impossible to take the exam during February. That said, I am contemplating taking the CFA in June. But I am worried about my busy season, if I am still in audit, rolling into the middle of April (my client is going public and they keep pushing back their S-1 registration which means that we need to refile it every quarter with the new Q's results).

That's the whole point of my argument. Employers are tired of paying a premium for people who under perform. I have yet to see a study that shows people with high GPA's from 'prestigious' schools do better than those without. I'm not arguing that people who go that route make more money, that's obviously true. I'm arguing that the money they make is due to inefficiencies in the hiring and promotion process, brought on by a system that is not egalitarian; as in networking and who you know is more important than what you are capable of. Companies can be better for less money. They just have to look beyond the diploma and onto the actual candidate. Psychological profiling and certifications are a way to do just that.


I agree for the most part. But a guy from [insert big name school here] is usually going to beat out most of their competition for a couple of reasons:

- The upper tier schools have an alumni network that is well entrenched in the corporate world. When I interviewed at Merrill, the room was full of guys from NYU and Columbia because Merrill is full of guys from NYU and Columbia. I was the only one in the group that wasn't from a top 10 MBA program (I didn't get the internship, but I blame myself for fucking up the last interview).

So the alumni looks out for, and hires, recent graduates from the alma mater.

- Hiring a kid from a big name school is a safe hire. If the kid turns out to be a dumbass you have cover. Hey, he went to The University of Chicago, how should I know that he is a 'tard?

- Schools have a brand image just like companies do. If you buy a BMW, you expect a certain kind of performance and quality for your money. The same is true when hiring workers. Bain hires graduates from Harvard because they think that it gives their company a better image and they probably feel that these hires are more productive than others would be.

I agree that DCF is DCF. It doesn't matter where you learn it. The difference between me and a guy that went to NYU is that I learned DCF and APV in b-school from the McKinsey book. While they learn from Damodaran (http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/) himself.

In the end I think that a good degree gets you in the door when you are younger, but the longer that you are in the labor force the more weight your job experience and performance matters.

[kid_vidrio]

I definitely have a BA in BS. Works fine for me.

[miniumwager]

Changing gears a little bit. Does one believe that everyone should and get mostly free (e.g. financial aid etc.) BS degree, or is there still the belief that "some" people are just meant to work a Wal-Mart?

[nuclearjew]

Changing gears a little bit. Does one believe that everyone should and get mostly free (e.g. financial aid etc.) BS degree, or is there still the belief that "some" people are just meant to work a Wal-Mart?
Suck a dong, queer.

[Jurassic Pork]

Enginering related usually BSc's or BEngs, or at least in the UK, ive got a BSc in Product Design (Industrial)

[Debo]

Changing gears a little bit. Does one believe that everyone should and get mostly free (e.g. financial aid etc.) BS degree, or is there still the belief that "some" people are just meant to work a Wal-Mart?


No. Why should it be free?

If you take on debt to finance your tuition, you are going to take college more seriously than you would if it was free.

[miniumwager]

To the point now....not everyone should go to college. That's the point. Some should work in this industrial society we live in. It degrades the degree.

[smith42687]

Thanks. I am taking it in NY. I have already received my NTR from NASBA. And I am already scheduled all four parts of the exam in NY.

I do work in audit, for now. I am trying to transfer within my firm to one of the finance groups (valuations or restructuring). And yes, it would be impossible to take the exam during February. That said, I am contemplating taking the CFA in June. But I am worried about my busy season, if I am still in audit, rolling into the middle of April (my client is going public and they keep pushing back their S-1 registration which means that we need to refile it every quarter with the new Q's results).

Do they call it Register in NY? I've always heard of it as the NTS (Notice to Schedule).

Getting out of audit is the best advice I can give anyone entering a firm. I earned my transfer, but also was a bit lucky that I had the opportunity to do that as an Intern, so I never had a full busy season as a designated slave to the audit scheduler. Buy-side M&A is a great place to start because you can more easily transition into Management Consulting or Investment Banking, but still carry the name and weight of having the CPA and 'audit-related' work. I doubt I'll work in this group forever, so it's nice to actually enjoy my time here instead of dreading the New Year like everyone in the audit group.

[Pollo]

To the point now....not everyone should go to college. That's the point. Some should work in this industrial society we live in. It degrades the degree.

it's quite degrading from employeers I've heard from what offers they're giving me after busting my ass to get my BS. heck, some jobs I've seen that only require high school graduates are getting paid more than people with bachelor degrees (at least in my field for certain jobs).

[A-Money]

^Nope. An engineering degree is a BS, which is what I've got. I wouldn't call a BS a waste of time, but a BA in 'communications' or the such does seem pretty worthless.

[shdaow]

I think its just the fact that in many fields, a BA has become what was a high school degree requirement job in the past, and now getting a Masters in your field is where you reap the true value of University education in terms of getting a better job.

Best degree I've seen @ a Canadian University? Major in Field Turf Management; Guelph.

[miniumwager]

This is what it boils down too: As an employer looks at the BA/BS it means that this person can start a planned path and follow through to the end. One can set a goal and achieve it.

[Hobnail_Boot]

I have a Ph.D. in biochemistry. I make $150k per year. I like my degrees and my job.

...but a BA in 'communications' or the such does seem pretty worthless.
Those degrees are reserved for the athletes.

[Captain Insano]

I have a BA in History...ended up selling insurance/financial services for 12 years. Now I'm back in school getting a better degree...so I don't have to sell shit.

[Archetype]

Right... and that's a problem for the US. Networking has become more important than ability.

Networking has ALWAYS been more important than ability. It's not a problem, that's life.

[Claydon]

There is such a thing as "Degree inflation".

Use to be that a BA/BS would make you a captain of industry, now you need post grad work to make the real money.

[Archetype]

Doesn't help that half the people in these courses now don't know what "common sense" means.

[Pollo]

I think its just the fact that in many fields, a BA has become what was a high school degree requirement job in the past, and now getting a Masters in your field is where you reap the true value of University education in terms of getting a better job.

sadly that's the truth. the problem is, it's quite difficult to get into graduate school to pursue a Masters/Ph.D. at a competitive college/university. and here's the thing also: most competitive schools don't want to accept appliciants that merely want to get their Masters -- at least that's what I was told from my research advisor. they feel it's a waste of time to take on someone that doesn't want a Ph.D.

I remember overhearing the standards to get into a Ph.D. program in Chem at the university I just graduated from, and the average GPA for the newly admitted graduates in the program was a sick 3.8 out of a 4.0 scale.

[Debo]

Do they call it Register in NY? I've always heard of it as the NTS (Notice to Schedule).

Getting out of audit is the best advice I can give anyone entering a firm. I earned my transfer, but also was a bit lucky that I had the opportunity to do that as an Intern, so I never had a full busy season as a designated slave to the audit scheduler. Buy-side M&A is a great place to start because you can more easily transition into Management Consulting or Investment Banking, but still carry the name and weight of having the CPA and 'audit-related' work. I doubt I'll work in this group forever, so it's nice to actually enjoy my time here instead of dreading the New Year like everyone in the audit group.

It might be NTS, the whole process was such a pain in the ass that I try to remember as little as possible about it.

I am only in audit for the CPA license. Once I pass, I am getting the fuck out.

[Hobnail_Boot]

I remember overhearing the standards to get into a Ph.D. program in Chem at the university I just graduated from, and the average GPA for the newly admitted graduates in the program was a sick 3.8 out of a 4.0 scale.
That largely depends on who the graduate adviser is. I had a 3.2 GPA for my B.S., a 3.0 GPA for my M.S., but I had solid GRE scores, solid letters of recommendation, I'd published several papers, and I had some work experience. I wasn't a great student, but I'm a capable researcher and that's what got me into the program.

[Pollo]

That largely depends on who the graduate adviser is. I had a 3.2 GPA for my B.S., a 3.0 GPA for my M.S., but I had solid GRE scores, solid letters of recommendation, I'd published several papers, and I had some work experience. I wasn't a great student, but I'm a capable researcher and that's what got me into the program.

for me, I barely had a GPA below a 3.0 -- so to hear my school had an average GPA of 3.8 for an organic chem program blew me away (although it is a top 15 university for programs in organic chem).

I'm actually trying to get into grad school (not at the school I just graduated from), but I'll be waiting a year before I apply to gain some work experience and study for the GRE. I don't think I'll have an issue with letters of recommendation, but with my GPA, the GRE/letters are the only shot of getting me in. there are some Cal State universities here that only require a GPA of 2.5, but they only have Masters progams. I'm thinking of doing that, and if all things go well, then I can always try to get into a Ph.D. program somewhere else.

[fah_q]

Outside a handful of majors -- engineering and some of the sciences -- a bachelor's degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance. Even a degree in a vocational major like business administration can mean anything from a solid base of knowledge to four years of barely remembered gut courses.


This is painfully true. I just graduated in May and it's been almost impossible to find a 'real' job. Understandably so, many employers will substitute a decent amount of experience in a field for coursework. I have little experience since I mainly took seasonal jobs to get money, and I live in fucking Michigan during a time of a horrible economy. It has been tough as shit to find entry level positions that require little to no experience, unless you want to pyramid scheme it at a marketing firm.

[smith42687]

unless you want to pyramid scheme it at a marketing firm.


Haha, they have plenty of those in Michigan.


I will give them kudos for knowing how to completely wrap their 'employees' up in the motivational/religious side message being presented. Michiganders eat that shit for breakfast.

[Swurgen]

There are a lot of jobs (and not just blue collar ones) that really don't need college at all but just use college degrees and to the next level, 'where you got your degree' prestige as lazy ways of cutting through the applicants much the way SAT scores make it easy for colleges themselves to cut through a lot of bullshit when recruiting HS students.

I remember sitting around a table at lunch one day with about a dozen friends from my old job and we were telling college stories when it suddenly dawned on me that I was the only one in the group who didn't graduate (did 3 years but subjects jumped around a bit as I could never figure out exactly what I wanted to do when I grew up). I mentioned that to the guys and also pointed out that I was smarter than all of them. They all basically agreed. I was a better worker than all but two of them. I was smarter after college but very little of that new knowledge was useful in anything. Understandably I didn't graduate but unless you're pursuing a very specialized path (engineer, accountant, ...) like many of the ones mentioned here, I don't anticipate that being any different.

For the student, I think the most important and in many cases only thing that college is good for is the independence that it forces upon you. Forces you to go to a new environment and make new friends, live independently of mommy and daddy and all that entails, budgeting your time and money between work and play, shit like that. All shit that you would have learned if you just started working at an office or whatever right out of HS and learned your profession while on the job but college kind of forces you to do that part of it a lot quicker. The only thing is that college is WAAAAAAY too expensive for it to be worthwhile in a perfect world. It's almost like a tollbooth to future success. It's just a price you have to pay. They should just start selling sheepskins for whatever price and save people a few years time.

[Hobnail_Boot]

The best thing about majoring in a science (biology, chemistry, computers), math, or engineering is that there is LOADS of scholarship money available at the undergraduate level. And most scientists who want to pursue graduate degrees pay little to nothing for them because all of our research is grant supported. That's just something for you "arts" majors to consider...

[fah_q]

Haha, they have plenty of those in Michigan.


I will give them kudos for knowing how to completely wrap their 'employees' up in the motivational/religious side message being presented. Michiganders eat that shit for breakfast.


Yeah I got called in for a "Management Training Program" that turned out to be a group presentation for an insurance sales position. Needless to say I was pissed I got sucked into it. Fast-talking has become an art and a lot of sales type people are getting good at it. Chicago is not short on the marketing firms claiming to be #1 in cosmetics and sports, I see them on internet postings all the time. The problem is people aren't smart enough to realize this person has said nothing specific about the job, just told you it's exciting, etc.

I would say 80% of the jobs I have tossed my resume at are in the Chicagoland area. I've always wanted to live there and it's one place in the US with new jobs all the time.

Also, my college experience has definitely taken away from a BA's credibility. I know people that literally did not do shit and graduated no problem. No cracks on MSU, this happens everywhere. There are people I consider friends but wouldn't hire in a million years after watching them go out regularly on Tuesdays.

[Infotainment]

It might be NTS, the whole process was such a pain in the ass that I try to remember as little as possible about it.

I am only in audit for the CPA license. Once I pass, I am getting the fuck out.

I second that mindset 100%.

[Pollo]

This is painfully true. I just graduated in May and it's been almost impossible to find a 'real' job. Understandably so, many employers will substitute a decent amount of experience in a field for coursework. I have little experience since I mainly took seasonal jobs to get money, and I live in fucking Michigan during a time of a horrible economy. It has been tough as shit to find entry level positions that require little to no experience, unless you want to pyramid scheme it at a marketing firm.

although I was still in school, I've been looking for employment since my spring break (basically since April) and to this point nothing appealing has come up. obviously I intensifed my search once school was over, but in the last quarter I was at school, I didn't think finding a job would be that difficult since I heard at least eight different employeers contact me the first week which I posted my resume. this summer, though, has been a disaster for entry-level jobs like you said -- and most of the jobs here in SoCal in my areas of interest are mainly looking for 3-5 years experience.

maybe I'm being very picky, but I'm not fucking taking $10-12/hour bullshit offers for 9-hour shifts six days a week.

[Infotainment]

although I was still in school, I've been looking for employment since my spring break (basically since April) and to this point nothing appealing has come up. obviously I intensifed my search once school was over, but in the last quarter I was at school, I didn't think finding a job would be that difficult since I heard at least eight different employeers contact me the first week which I posted my resume. this summer, though, has been a disaster for entry-level jobs like you said -- and most of the jobs here in SoCal in my areas of interest are mainly looking for 3-5 years experience.

maybe I'm being very picky, but I'm not fucking taking $10-12/hour bullshit offers for 9-hour shifts six days a week.

Damn you guys are in the wrong field. Most of the class I graduated with who were getting accounting degrees were hired before they even started their senior year. I know in my case I was hired one month into my senior year.

[bbates77]

I have a degree and a graduate diploma in music. I'm a Bakery Manager in a supermarket.

[Stax]

A. This thread presupposes that the sole purpose of education is to increase one's earning power. This is not true.
B. I agree that a bachelor's degree has become the new high school degree. Doesn't make it a waste of time, just makes it less valuable.

[Debo]

A. This thread presupposes that the sole purpose of education is to increase one's earning power. This is not true.
B. I agree that a bachelor's degree has become the new high school degree. Doesn't make it a waste of time, just makes it less valuable.

Some people might earn a degree because they like the challenge or they have a quest for knowledge. But the majority of students earn a degree because they want to make more money. It isn't the sole purpose, but it is the driving factor behind most people's motivation.

I have been saying this for years. My grandparents didn't go to college because it wasn't necessary. Both of my parents were the first ones in their family to graduate from college because they didn't want to work on a farm. And out of the three of us two have a post-undergraduate degrees because they have become a necessity in the modern business world.

[Stax]

A lot of people get bachelors to make money, yes. But a disproportionate # of BA students, compared to the general population, don't. I have a friend getting a BA in Music Education. I highly doubt he has any misconceptions about making millions because of it.

[scraty55]

Political Science and English = Thoughts of Law School...Ended up at an Insurance company...

Now I am studying for my CFP. Moral of the story, there is no end to schooling. You can never have the right degree all the time, you will always need to know more or show that you in via a degree or cert.

Higher education is a well oiled machine, whether a BA is worthless, its a neccessary evil, even though the job force is being diluted with people that went to satellite schools or online universities and are forcing the rest of us to get masters degrees to keep the caste system afloat

[feith]

i don't have a BA, yet i have a full time salary job in a high rise in center city philly...but thats because i got extremly lucky.

really i think you need a BA if you are a female, just because you can't go into a labor career.

most a BA is the new high school diploma in the job world.

[Debo]

A lot of people get bachelors to make money, yes. But a disproportionate # of BA students, compared to the general population, don't. I have a friend getting a BA in Music Education. I highly doubt he has any misconceptions about making millions because of it.


One of my best friends majored in art in college. Now he is the head of the marketing department at a small start-up in FL. This doesn't proven anything.

Look at what people major in. It is either business, science or education. If you want to work in any of those fields, you will need a degree.
http://www.scholarships.com/Most-Popular-College-Majors.aspx
http://nces.ed.gov/FastFacts/display.asp?id=37

[Morfin]

Like it or not, flawed system or not, a BA is a ticket to a good job. Yes, there are always going to be exceptions of people without degrees getting good jobs, but, in general, you need the degree to get into the arena where the good jobs are. Yes, many undergrad degrees are bullshit and provide little or no real world preparation, but that is the nature of a BA. Hell, I graduated from law school and that does not prepare you with real-world type experience -- it provides you with a broad foundation of different aspects of law that every lawyer should know and understand (at least in general terms). Then, when you start practicing, you get the real life experience.

I look at my 3 years in law school as a 3-year prison sentence -- something I needed to live through until I could take and pass the Bar exam and practice law. Like it or not, that is what a BA is as well -- but you don't get to pass Go and collect $200 until you get that undergrad degree.

[Kilgore]

Can anyone tell me the benefit of getting a Master's in engineering? I plan on getting a BA in engineering (I'm going to be a college freshman this year), and after working a few years would like to pursue an MBA. But at Northwestern, there's a 5-year masters program for engineering, so it's only one more year of classes. But is it worth it?I work with a bunch of Engineers. First thing you need to worry about is getting your EIT and then your PE and then getting your masters if you still want it. At least in my area of Engineering I have never met a engineer that has a masters that isn't a PE.

[Rover]

I work with a bunch of Engineers. First thing you need to worry about is getting your EIT and then your PE and then getting your masters if you still want it. At least in my area of Engineering I have never met a engineer that has a masters that isn't a PE.That's only specific to where you work. It doesn't matter when you get your PE in relation to your MS. The benefits of getting an MS before your PE is that the work requirements are about half of what they are with just your BS. 4 years versus 2 years of WE (depending on your state requirments).

[camvike]

My BBA in Business Communication got me just a shitty enough job to figure out I needed something more. That's why I went back to law school. Though there are a lot of BA degrees that are great. My best friend and roommate from college got a BA in information systems and makes more money working for a software company than I do as an attorney.

[Penguin Rick]

What's a PE?

[camvike]

Profession Engineers certification

[Pollo]

Damn you guys are in the wrong field. Most of the class I graduated with who were getting accounting degrees were hired before they even started their senior year. I know in my case I was hired one month into my senior year.

heck you'd think being in a chemistry industry would be excellent, especially since chemists are in need right now (or at that's what the American Chemical Society claims). I personally know someone that has a Ph.D. in chemistry and she's been jobless for a year.

A. This thread presupposes that the sole purpose of education is to increase one's earning power. This is not true.
B. I agree that a bachelor's degree has become the new high school degree. Doesn't make it a waste of time, just makes it less valuable.

and I think it's ridiculous a BA/BS is becoming obsolete to the value of a HS diploma, which is downright ridiculous.

[Will-Kill]

I just got my AA last year in Plastic/Composite Manufacturing, I was thinking about getting a bachelor's degree but it would not be a direct relation to my AA but more of a branch off.

[Phil Theehor]

The BA isn't really obsolete. It still remains a hard barrier for entry for a great many corporate roles. Even if it has no bearing on the work at hand (somebody mentioned history majors selling insurance previously), many companies maintain it as a non-negotiable credential for entry-level employees. At its least, a BA usually means that its holder can write effectively.

As other people have mentioned, a BS is more valuable for finding your first job-- because you are coming in with readily transferrable skills and usually entering a technical field. The only downside to this is that it can be limiting. Many people complain later in life that once they join a technical career track, they have trouble broadening their careers.

[twisterf5]

i guess the best thing about college is the football games

[Pike Bishop]

The BA isn't really obsolete. It still remains a hard barrier for entry for a great many corporate roles. Even if it has no bearing on the work at hand (somebody mentioned history majors selling insurance previously), many companies maintain it as a non-negotiable credential for entry-level employees. At its least, a BA usually means that its holder can write effectively.

As other people have mentioned, a BS is more valuable for finding your first job-- because you are coming in with readily transferrable skills and usually entering a technical field. The only downside to this is that it can be limiting. Many people complain later in life that once they join a technical career track, they have trouble broadening their careers.

I would argue that a BA functions as a "barrier to entry" primarily in the sense that it helps weed out people who can't afford college. I've known plenty of unintelligent, talentless, lazy people who got through their undergraduate careers with high marks (I have no idea where they've gone since graduation, since by definition they weren't worth keeping in touch with). On the other hand, my girlfriend has a BA in English (compared with my MS in engineering) and makes way more money than me. I guess that the moral of the story is, if you can afford to go to college and you're hard-working and intelligent, you'll do pretty well no matter what your major is.

[Pollo]

I would argue that a BA functions as a "barrier to entry" primarily in the sense that it helps weed out people who can't afford college. I've known plenty of unintelligent, talentless, lazy people who got through their undergraduate careers with high marks (I have no idea where they've gone since graduation, since by definition they weren't worth keeping in touch with). On the other hand, my girlfriend has a BA in English (compared with my MS in engineering) and makes way more money than me. I guess that the moral of the story is, if you can afford to go to college and you're hard-working and intelligent, you'll do pretty well no matter what your major is.

what field in engineering is your degree in? I ask since mechanical and civil engineers are just highly crowded (and it seems it isn't competitive as it used to be), and I would know that since I knew most engineers at my school were in either field.

maybe I'm just venting since I haven't found a job yet as a recent graduate, and I really hate to say a bachelors is becoming/is obsolete, but for how hard I busted my ass to get it -- I was (and still am) shocked how bad employers' offers are vs. some jobs I see which only require a HS diploma (with little experience) offering more.

[BIG PIZZLE]

I have a BA. Double major. But I'm also a doctor because I know a BA really isnt shit.

[Pike Bishop]

what field in engineering is your degree in? I ask since mechanical and civil engineers are just highly crowded (and it seems it isn't competitive as it used to be), and I would know that since I knew most engineers at my school were in either field.

maybe I'm just venting since I haven't found a job yet as a recent graduate, and I really hate to say a bachelors is becoming/is obsolete, but for how hard I busted my ass to get it -- I was (and still am) shocked how bad employers' offers are vs. some jobs I see which only require a HS diploma (with little experience) offering more.

I'm a Civil/Structural. My company will hire people with BS degrees in mechanical engineering or electrical engineering, but if you're civil, structural, or geotechnical they won't hire you without a masters degree.

What I neglected to mention was that my friends with BA degrees that make ridiculous money live for the weekends (at best) or hate their jobs (at worst). I get to do something interesting all day and what money I get (it isn't bad) just happens to show up in my bank account and I don't really worry about it. I guess that's the tradeoff. If you work in a field where there's a long line of people who would be psyched to have your job for less money than you're getting, it's going to be difficult to get to a point where you're "well compensated". On the other hand, if you do some kind of soul-sucking bullshit all day, it's probably a little easier to get into that sort of position because other people can't handle the stress/drudgery/ennui.

[Sex Cannon]

I also have a BA. Double major. Journalism and Communication Studies. Journalism is a bit of a different situation altogether though being slightly more specialized. If I had it to do over again I would have just gone right to grad school for my Masters but it didn't really work out that way.

I know a ton of people that picked up BA's and none of those people are in the field they studied to be in. I'm in agreement on the barrier to entry point, for the most part anyway.

[Gary_Busey]

I'm double majoring in Information Technology and Business and I'm pretty sure I'll end up getting a job in IT. I think. Hopefully.

[BIG PIZZLE]

what field in engineering is your degree in? I ask since mechanical and civil engineers are just highly crowded (and it seems it isn't competitive as it used to be), and I would know that since I knew most engineers at my school were in either field.

maybe I'm just venting since I haven't found a job yet as a recent graduate, and I really hate to say a bachelors is becoming/is obsolete, but for how hard I busted my ass to get it -- I was (and still am) shocked how bad employers' offers are vs. some jobs I see which only require a HS diploma (with little experience) offering more.

You seriously busted you ass for a BA?

[Pollo]

You seriously busted you ass for a BA?

I have a BS in chemistry.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Well that makes a little more sense. Where did you want to end up wanting to work when you started school?

[nuclearjew]

At El Pollo Loco.

[Penguin Rick]

I think I'm gonna double major in engineering and econ. It'll be hard but I hope I can get a good amount of oppurtunities from it.

[Gary_Busey]

Technical degrees are so in fashion this Spring.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Seriously, if you dont go into college with a general idea of what you want to do or figure out what you want to do in college, you're wasting your time. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with your parents?

[Penguin Rick]

... Is that directed to me?

[BIG PIZZLE]

That's really based on you, isnt it?

[Pollo]

At El Pollo Loco.

:mad:

Well that makes a little more sense. Where did you want to end up wanting to work when you started school?

I wanted (and still) to work in the pharmaceutical industry, but fuck it's tough to find an entry-level position with a big time company ... so I'm just trying to find any experience I can get which I know pharmaceutical companies desire in their employees.

[BIG PIZZLE]

The last person I met that wanted a job with a pharmaceutical company was a puerto rican stripper. I would probably hire her.

[Debo]

The last person I met that wanted a job with a pharmaceutical company was a puerto rican stripper. I would probably hire her.


Typically pharma reps are smoking hot chicks because the majority of doctors are old ass perverts.

[Penguin Rick]

That's really based on you, isnt it?

I don't see how my parents are involved in this.

[fah_q]

I think I'm gonna double major in engineering and econ. It'll be hard but I hope I can get a good amount of oppurtunities from it.

What the hell would you do with an econ degree? I have what is basically a minor and econ and it hasn't done shit for me.

[Ghostrider]

Certainly the exclusivity of a 4 year degree has been reduced by the vast number of ways to go to college no matter what you are has decreased the effectiveness of a BA in ganing jobs in some sectors, additionally the useless degrees like Liberal Arts, and Communications inhabited by the ranks of those only going to college because the parents feel it is required has been on the rise for quite a while.

[Penguin Rick]

What the hell would you do with an econ degree? I have what is basically a minor and econ and it hasn't done shit for me.

Well I want to get an MBA later, and I assume having some econ under my belt would help me get into better programs.

[One Under]

So after reading through most of this thread, there seems to be a consensus that a bachelor's just isn't enough anymore. I'll get mine in the spring (in Finance) and I'm pretty up in the air about what I want to do next. I've looked into a couple MBA programs, but I still have not taken the GMAT, so I still have some research to do on a school.

For the people that got MBA's, did u go straight into it after your bachelor's and work on it as a full time student or did u do the part time thing? What would u suggest?

[Pollo]

So after reading through most of this thread, there seems to be a consensus that a bachelor's just isn't enough anymore. I'll get mine in the spring (in Finance) and I'm pretty up in the air about what I want to do next. I've looked into a couple MBA programs, but I still have not taken the GMAT, so I still have some research to do on a school.

For the people that got MBA's, did u go straight into it after your bachelor's and work on it as a full time student or did u do the part time thing? What would u suggest?

it seems we're in relatively similar situations, just completely different majors. interestingly enough, I did ask my research adviser (as well as close friends of mine that are grad students) and I basically asked them the same question you brought up. the majority of them told me they didn't immediately pursue graduate level work, but waited at least a year to test the work environment and see if they really wanted to pursue a higher degree. plus after doing some research and working closely to grad students, I noticed a majority of them are in their upper 20s/lower 30s basically starting out, so some people take more than a year off and work and later come back.

me personally, I'd like to take a year off (since I'm personally burnt out of school) and gain some work experience. in a year's time, if it's possible, I'd like to keep that job while going to school part-time, even if it were to take another year to earn a Master's or MBA in your case.

[shdaow]

So after reading through most of this thread, there seems to be a consensus that a bachelor's just isn't enough anymore. I'll get mine in the spring (in Finance) and I'm pretty up in the air about what I want to do next. I've looked into a couple MBA programs, but I still have not taken the GMAT, so I still have some research to do on a school.

For the people that got MBA's, did u go straight into it after your bachelor's and work on it as a full time student or did u do the part time thing? What would u suggest?

I don't know how it works in the states if you are FROM the states, but from my MBA research every reputable school I've looked at requires two full, uninterrupted years of work experience in some sort of "business" environment (I.e. not McDonalds or Circuit City), so in this case work is unavoidable. The idea behind it is that students will be able to bring their experience from the working world into the classroom thus improving overall social interactions, and increasing the chances for successful networking.

[fah_q]

I would argue that a BA functions as a "barrier to entry" primarily in the sense that it helps weed out people who can't afford college. I've known plenty of unintelligent, talentless, lazy people who got through their undergraduate careers with high marks (I have no idea where they've gone since graduation, since by definition they weren't worth keeping in touch with). On the other hand, my girlfriend has a BA in English (compared with my MS in engineering) and makes way more money than me. I guess that the moral of the story is, if you can afford to go to college and you're hard-working and intelligent, you'll do pretty well no matter what your major is.


This is basically what i was about to say. It can really hurt you if you don't have it, but might not matter once you do and you're against other people that do.

[Limp]

Me no finnish college and me have a gud payeng job and bout to git a bettah 1.

[malibulivin]

So after reading through most of this thread, there seems to be a consensus that a bachelor's just isn't enough anymore. I'll get mine in the spring (in Finance) and I'm pretty up in the air about what I want to do next. I've looked into a couple MBA programs, but I still have not taken the GMAT, so I still have some research to do on a school.

For the people that got MBA's, did u go straight into it after your bachelor's and work on it as a full time student or did u do the part time thing? What would u suggest?

From someone who has been there and done that, my experience is get your undergrad. Find a good job for about 2-3 years then get an MBA. If you're young and don't have a lot of strings attached, ie. bills, wife, overhead, etc. then you should pursue a fulltime MBA. However, if you need income, the part-time programs are the way to go. Most good MBA programs really want to see someone who has been working rather than coming straight out of college.....Unless you are a genius. There is no substitute for real world experience when applying for an MBA and it often helps your acceptance chances. MBA's are not only great for the skills you learn, but also the networking.

I went to work for a few years, found out what I liked and didn't like in terms of a career and then used the MBA to help my chances of a career change and maintain the income I needed.

Not sure where you live or where you want to live when you finish school, but the major job markets have gotten SOOOOOO competitive even for people coming out of great MBA programs. Companies have basically realized that they can get an MBA grad from a top institution and work them for about $75-$80k per year just because the market will allow them to do that. That may sound like a decent starting salary, but remember what it costs to go to a good MBA program as well as paying back those loans and it can be a little depressing.

At the end of the day with regards to this debate, it boils down to not what you know, but who you know, luck and the right timing.

I say all of this with the experience I have learned and mistakes made over time.

[bigbowls]

I have yet to use a single thing that I learned in college in my job. For me having the degree just gave me the status, allowing me to be considered for certain jobs. Almost every single job is going to train you from the very beginning, not expecting that you are going to know what to do from sitting in a classroom.

[Cleric Preston]

From someone who has been there and done that, my experience is get your undergrad. Find a good job for about 2-3 years then get an MBA. If you're young and don't have a lot of strings attached, ie. bills, wife, overhead, etc. then you should pursue a fulltime MBA. However, if you need income, the part-time programs are the way to go. Most good MBA programs really want to see someone who has been working rather than coming straight out of college.....Unless you are a genius. There is no substitute for real world experience when applying for an MBA and it often helps your acceptance chances. MBA's are not only great for the skills you learn, but also the networking.

I went to work for a few years, found out what I liked and didn't like in terms of a career and then used the MBA to help my chances of a career change and maintain the income I needed.

Not sure where you live or where you want to live when you finish school, but the major job markets have gotten SOOOOOO competitive even for people coming out of great MBA programs. Companies have basically realized that they can get an MBA grad from a top institution and work them for about $75-$80k per year just because the market will allow them to do that. That may sound like a decent starting salary, but remember what it costs to go to a good MBA program as well as paying back those loans and it can be a little depressing.

At the end of the day with regards to this debate, it boils down to not what you know, but who you know, luck and the right timing.

I say all of this with the experience I have learned and mistakes made over time.

I went straight from my BS to my MBA. I'd say doing so has its perks - I did it because I knew that if I started working, making decent money, and stopped eating top ramen every other meal, that it would be tough to go back to that lifestyle for a full time program. Plus, you can defer payments on your existing loans if you're continuing your education.

A lot of programs want people with 2 years work experience, but if you kick ass on the GMAT, most schools can waiver that rule at their discretion.

[Penguin Rick]

What'd you get your BS in?

[ibwip]

What the hell would you do with an econ degree? I have what is basically a minor and econ and it hasn't done shit for me.

outside of engineering econ is probably the best undergrad degree you can get in regards to earning potential. that being said, 100 level econ courses are basically a joke and are simply there for business administration majors to pretend to be adults. 300 level ones are where it's at, they teach you how the world actually works and how to actually think.

http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/degrees.asp

[wescas]

unless you actually try really hard and have a lot of experience, everyone has bachelors degree, and you can't get anywhere without some kind of post bachelor's degree in anything, unless you offer something more.

[Cleric Preston]

What'd you get your BS in?

Math w/ an econ minor. Then I figured out I didn't want to be a math teacher, so I got an MBA with a concentration in Finance. Good times.

[Cleric Preston]

unless you actually try really hard and have a lot of experience, everyone has bachelors degree, and you can't get anywhere without some kind of post bachelor's degree in anything, unless you offer something more.

Bullshit. For your first job out of college, most employers know they're going to have to train you from the ground up. A college degree or grad degree is just an indicator that you're reasonably intelligent and hopefully a quick learner. I've been with the same company since I graduated and I've trained plenty of people with degrees who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a flashlight. The bottom line always comes down to intelligence and work ethic.

[Claydon]

Bullshit. For your first job out of college, most employers know they're going to have to train you from the ground up. A college degree or grad degree is just an indicator that you're reasonably intelligent and hopefully a quick learner. I've been with the same company since I graduated and I've trained plenty of people with degrees who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a flashlight. The bottom line always comes down to intelligence and work ethic.

A degree shows you know how to take a test.

[Debo]

So after reading through most of this thread, there seems to be a consensus that a bachelor's just isn't enough anymore. I'll get mine in the spring (in Finance) and I'm pretty up in the air about what I want to do next. I've looked into a couple MBA programs, but I still have not taken the GMAT, so I still have some research to do on a school.

For the people that got MBA's, did u go straight into it after your bachelor's and work on it as a full time student or did u do the part time thing? What would u suggest?


The majority of MBA programs want you to have almost five years of work experience before attending b-school.

My MBA program consisted of people in their late twenties and early thirties. It is rare to see a 23 year old enrolled in b-school.

What kind of positions are you interviewing for?

[yard]

one of the main benefits of college is socialization and exposure to different points of view...

[nuclearjew]

one of the main benefits of college is socialization and exposure to different points of view...and dudes who will buttsecks you...ahhh buttsecks

[yard]

now that's just plain wrong......
at least we all know what you obsess about....

[Crack]

We've all got muscle in our head that can be "worked" just like every other muscle on the body...

Guess what? Anyone can be a body-builder and anyone can be a genius barring a handicap that exists that prevents memory formation...

What we are capable of is completely within our hands, what necessarily happens to us is what's not in our control.

[yard]

We've all got muscle in our head that can be "worked" just like every other muscle on the body...

Guess what? Anyone can be a body-builder and anyone can be a genius barring a handicap that exists that prevents memory formation...

What we are capable of is completely within our hands, what necessarily happens to us is what's not in our control.

sorry but i disagree....

i have met a lot of dumba$$e$ that there is no way in hell they could EVER become a genius

[hatepoppy]

ba degrees are largely worthless. its all about the bs.

i got a bs and had a job before i graduated. arts or science, which is gonna be more dependable?

[Fletch]

ba degrees are largely worthless. its all about the bs.

i got a bs and had a job before i graduated. arts or science, which is gonna be more dependable?

It depends on what kind of job you want. I have a BA and had a job before I graduated, that doesn't prove shit.

[yard]

those that have BS's are a little snobby to those with a BA...
those that have post graduate degrees also look down on ba's.....

[hatepoppy]

those that have money are a little snobby to those with no job...
those that have money also look down on poor-o's.....

[JohnQRotten]

I think the difference is that you can get a better job right out of the gate with a BS. You have to have Masters on top of your BA to make the equivalent money.