Why America Wants Another Cold War

[Archangel]

My feelings on this whole Georgia gayness are well known.

Abkhazia and South Ossetia, with large Russian minorities, wanted to leave Georgia.

Georgia marched into those provinces with stunning brutality, killing thousands of people and razing entire towns. "Ethnic cleansing" isn't too big a word for what Georgia tried to do. And at the time of the initial attack, 140 US military advisers were in Georgia, whom Bush wants in NATO. If you think they didn't know EXACTLY what was going on, you need to have your head checked.

Rather unexpectedly, Russia didn't like having Russians killed, so they retaliated against Georgia, killing themselves a great many people.

The Western media, influenced by US cable news channels, spun this into an act of Russian aggression. All we saw were pictures, provided by the Georgian government, of a few bombed out houses in Gori; nobody ever saw the throngs of people in Abkhazia and South Ossetia greeting the Russian soldiers as liberators, or the towns and villages there shot to hell by Georgian troops, especially the havoc they wreaked in Tskhinvali. On the occasion of its 40th anniversary, even the Prague Spring was drawn into comparisons with the current situation, which, by the way, the Czech president himself declared ridiculous. Russia didn't attack Georgia out of imperialistic ambition, Russia retaliated against a country that was killing Russians. It's that bloody simple. As John Foster Dulles said, the first duty of a state is to protect its people from violence. Russia did what any sensible country would have done, depending on ability.

And then, the real idiocy started. America, which has been an occupying force in Iraq for over 5 years now, demanded that Russia withdraw AT ONCE from Georgia. At the same time, they used anti-Russian sentiment in Poland and the Czech Republic to ratify the stationing of a missile shield in those countries, and talked about former Soviet Republics joining NATO. And in a display of pathetic impotence, drawn into a totally unwanted situation by Poland, Georgia (remember how Kaczynski was the first to visit Saakashvili after the whole fracas) and the US.

When Russia basically told America, and the rest of NATO, to go fuck herself, people acted as if this were a high crime against humanity.
Now, if the roles were reversed, I wonder what America would have said if, say, in 1966, the USSR had insisted that the US retreat from Vietnam, while placing missiles in Panama and starting talks with Canada and Mexico to make them members of the Warsaw Pact. And then acted insulted and holier-than-thou when America did not leave Vietnam.

This, my friends, is called hypocrisy. As is the fact that while we criticised Russia for brutally attacking a wannabe independent province in Chechnya, nobody criticised Georgia for doing the EXACT SAME BLOODY THING in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The only thing was, the latter had a powerful friend. Chechnya didn't. So Chechnya leaving Russia is all right, but Abkhazia leaving Georgia isn't? Hmm.

Former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt, who I believe is the smartest man in politics, has said that today, America is a far greater threat to peace than Putin's Russia, and I agree.

Actually, I have to rephrase that.

BUSH's America is a greater threat to peace than Russia. I remember it was Bill Clinton who said that while America was the most powerful country on Earth today, its role in foreign politics was to create a world in which America would be safe and comfortable even if that were no longer so. Wise words, I think. With that kind of foreign policy, we'd live in a relatively secure world.

The Bush clique won't have any of that. The only thing they pursue is American power and hegemony, at the cost of the rest of the world's safety. The sad thing is that they suck so bad at foreign policy that every one of their steps has not made not only the world, but America less safe.

So since they failed to stabilse the Middle East (which would have meant turning it into a US satrapy), and China is simply too rich to fuck with, their next goal is to boost America's status by antagonising Russia.

America's global power is largely contingent on a compliant Europe. As much as Europe profited from NATO (and we undeniably did), America profited just as much. NATO allowed America to gain almost total military, cultural and political dominance over the wealthy, advanced industrialised nations of Europe: For almost 40 years, when America said "jump", Europe asked, "how high?"
Far better than having influence in some third world shithole, I'm sure you'll agree.

The end of the Cold War and Iraq changed all that. Suddenly, countries like Germany and France had the nerve (for whatever reason, the fact is that they did) to tell America "no".
This must have been a profound shock to Mr's Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz, who during Bush 41's administration, had written a then highly controversial paper on preserving American global hegemony, which plans they were then putting in motion. The fact that the American economy started reeling from a series of hammer blows only accelerated that process.

Mr Rumsfeld clearly outlined even then what America's next step would be. If "Old Europe" wouldn't fall in line, those "new" European countries would be America's next allies. Never mind that Poland's democratic traditions weren't much better than Russia's, that Georgia, the country that gave us Stalin, was a brutally governed jerkwater shithole; for the sake of keeping American hegemony in Europe alive, those countries would now be declared model democracies and America's new bffs. America would do everything to make them members of NATO, possibly even the EU. Oh yeah, and there's a shitload of gas and oil, or at least pipelines, in that region.

And the one thing all those countries have in common?

They're all deathly afraid of Russia.


So all that was needed was a way to make Russia look bad. So first, European decisions were made/guided which were explicitly designed to piss Russia off. The recognition of Kosovo. The eastward expansion of NATO and the EU, with talk of even the Ukraine, with its strategic Black Sea ports, becoming a member. The missile shield. And "new" Europe, not caring one whit about actual European interests, but overjoyed at their new big buddy and at their chance to thumb their noses at Russia, all dove to their collective knees to suck America's dick.

And then, all of a sudden, Georgia starts killing Russians, Russian retaliation is treated as "aggression", and Russia is being told to obey the international community's demands, which America herself blatantly disregarded 5 years earlier. The West (with the help of largely American media) paints Russia, whom they had been steadily encroaching upon for years, as the bad guy, and European-Russian friendship, which had been on a promising path, is shot to hell.

Oh, and let's not forget that while America was busy burning bridges in the past 5 years, Russia was keeping all options open. They opposed US aggression in Iraq and Iran, they improved relations with China and India, and got awfully friendly with a lot of people in Latin America. All on a non-committal basis.

All of a sudden, boom.

So if it "works out", Bush's cronies profit immensely from this fracas, in several ways (apart from the obvious ones).

First, a renewed sense of fear in Europe. And fear, as Grand Moff Tarkin well knew, will always do a good job of keeping others in line. In our optimistic retardedness, we never increased our military spending: So if push did indeed come to shove, we would have to hide under America's coat-tails again.

A freezing of Russo-European relations. America was not about to sit by while France and Germany were cosying up to the Russians: Through this gayness, we as fellow NATO members have to join in the chorus, and fuck up what was a pretty good deal.

A weakening of the European economy. Due to the previous matter, Russia will dramatically increase prices for gas this winter, which will hit Europe hard, since we depend on it. Consumer spending will fall, with other sectors soon to follow. Export markets will obviously be affected, as well.

A host of dubious, yet totally submissive new allies who will fall all over themselves to do America's bidding, and obviously buy American weapons, thus stifling EU arms development.

A strengthened Republican candidate. Do you really think that the timing of this crisis was a coincidence? With a major international crisis looming, McCain, with his stances on foreign policy and the military, suddenly looks like the strong man America needs in a dangerous world.

Another bipolar focus in which to overlook all the other problems that plague today. Fuck climate change (if there is such a thing), fuck nuclear proliferation, fuck the incredibly dangerously volatile situation that is Pakistan, the Russkies are acting up again! Hey, guys, look! The evil Ivans bombed a house somewhere!



One hell of a plan, if it works. America's better off strategically by fucking over Russia and Europe. I'm only surprised that the architects of the Iraq fiasco could think up something this brilliant.




I was NATO's staunchest supporter when its purpose was to keep Europe and the free world safe. I'm a member of the German Atlantic Council, and considered myself a die-hard atlanticist until a few years, maybe even months ago.

NATO's purpose today, however, is to perpetuate American interests in Europe at the expense of the core European states. NATO has become a total liability for those European countries whose foreign policy is dictated by common sense and not just foolhardiness and blind hatred and fear. We're letting NATO and the EU be run by Poland and Georgia's hatred of Russia these days, which simply cannot be.

The only sensible course would be for Germany and France to leave. With anti-American sentiments in Britain at a high point (what with hundreds of Britons dead due to Bush's little war), Britain would probably follow, at which point Italy, Spain etc would have no other choice to join in, as well, leaving America to play with Bulgaria, Lithuania, Georgia and all those great nations all she wants.

Americans, I love your country, but seriously, fuck your president.

[Hanover Fist]

Another good angle of the Russian-Georgian conflict. That takes the angle that the Russians actually orchestrated the whole Georgian nonsense. I wonder why it hasn't been discussed much at all in the media about the Ossetians firing at Georgian troops before Georgia invaded or the fact that the Russians just happened to have dozens of tanks and thousands of troops ready to enter South Ossetia within 24 hours in an area that is traditionally difficult to deploy to. Clearly Russia was expecting a very large action to occur in that region at that particular time. Russia had crack troops on the border with Georgia while Georgia had most of it's best troops in Iraq at the time.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-about-1.php

[Archangel]

Yeah, and Germany invaded Poland because Polish stragglers were shooting at German broadcast stations in Gliwicze...

It was known for months that Georgia was planning to send a message to those renegade provinces.

Also, Georgian SPECOPS forces were involved in this crisis, so some of their crack troops weren't in Iraq (hmm, wonder at whose behest they were there?): As a matter of fact, Heckler & Koch caught a lot of flak because many Georgian special forces soldiers were spotted using G36K rifles; German arms manufacturers are not allowed to sell weapons in conflict regions.

[Hanover Fist]

Yeah, and Germany invaded Poland because Polish stragglers were shooting at German broadcast stations in Gliwicze...


You don't think it's even a little odd that Russia seemed ready with an entire invasion force on the border of South Ossetia at that particular time?
Or is that because that would make it harder for you to blame the US?

[miniumwager]

It's all about oil. There is a pipeline that runs trough Ossetian(under Russia control). Georgia wants control over it because it runs straight to Israel. Imagine Kuwait attacking Saudi Arabia. Same senerio.....just covered up. To answer the main question it's simply industrial complex (eg. every state in the union makes one piece of the b52's exclusively due to the federal money given to make that one piece.

[Archangel]

I'm not blaming the US for the shooting.


All I'm saying is that it's both in line with previous US policy and awfully convenient to US interests. You be the judge.

I'm also recalling that a handful of US military advisers were hanging aroung Saigon in the mid-60s. 140 of them were in Georgia at the time the crisis broke out.

Also, if Georgia is stupid enough to attack South Ossetia WHEN THERE ARE A FUCKTON OF RUSSIAN SOLDIERS ON THE BORDER, then they pretty much deserve what they get. As far as I know, Czechoslovakia never tried to overrun US V Corps in the Fulda Gap.

[yard]

i see your information was also been spun... but bu antiamerican/ antibush sources.....

there are two sides to EVERY story.... the truth lies somewhere in between.

you blame bush for making the world an unsafe place and praise clinton (for whom i voted) for wanting peace...

keep in mind that the 911 incident happened only 10 months after bush was sworn in.. and had been in the planning for years.. they had tried unsuccessfully to blow them up a few years prior. In his short 10 months in office he had not put any policies in place that caused the attack.... it was well in the works from the former president....

living in europe you are used to terrorism, and blown up railways and buses.... here we are not.

these anti-american sentiments and attack plans were brewing during the clinton administration, but clinton was viewed as weak and allowed us enemies to grow in strength.....

[Archangel]

I mean, seriously, is the idea of America defending her interests at others' expense through proxy wars really that hard to swallow?

Do heed that I'm not saying that it's not in her right to do so: All I'm saying is that if we're in a club that forces us to go along (even if the expense is ours), we should get the fuck out.

[Archangel]

i see your information was also been spun... but bu antiamerican/ antibush sources.....

there are two sides to EVERY story.... the truth lies somewhere in between.

you blame bush for making the world an unsafe place and praise clinton (for whom i voted) for wanting peace...

keep in mind that the 911 incident happened only 10 months after bush was sworn in.. and had been in the planning for years.. they had tried unsuccessfully to blow them up a few years prior. In his short 10 months in office he had not put any policies in place that caused the attack.... it was well in the works from the former president....

living in europe you are used to terrorism, and blown up railways and buses.... here we are not.

these anti-american sentiments and attack plans were brewing during the clinton administration, but clinton was viewed as weak and allowed us enemies to grow in strength.....


How in the fuck is that relevant to my post?

If something causes a rift between Russia and Europe, America profits. That's what I'm saying.

I have no idea what 9/11 and terrorists have to do with that, but they're the excuse for everything these days, so whatever.

Oh, and "anti-American"?
Erhard Eppler said that if "anti-American" meant that we don't want to be told by America how to die, he'd gladly accept that label.

As far as anti-Bush, those are simply called "facts".

[Hanover Fist]

Well everyone keeps wondering WHY would Georgia attack S. Ossetia when they did? No one seems to be reporting that it was because the Ossetian militias had drastically increased their attacks on Georgian peacekeepers in the area.
Put two and two together. Russia deployed troops to the border and had the Ossetian militia increase attacks in order to provoke a response by the Georgian government. Therefore Russia could move in under the very premise that they did. The Russians actions after the fact should prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the operation against Georgia was planned well in advance and meant to be a punishing action.


As far as the Ossetian pipeline goes, it is basically Russia stealing Georgian gas. It is a short pipeline that transfers gas from South Ossetia (Georgia) to North Ossetia (Russia). Russia wants that gas without having to pay the Georgian government for it. Gazprom is funding its construction to the tune of 580 million dollars.

[Archangel]

Georgian "peacekeepers"?



I've yet to hear of a country that sends "peacekeepers" to renegade provinces who want to secede. I'm pretty sure there were no Russian peacekeepers in Chechnya; I'm also sure that Grant wasn't commanding an army of peacekeepers.
Rhetoric is a great tool, but here, we call them "occupation forces".

[Archangel]

Also, I've yet to hear anybody dispute that America stands to profit from this fracas at Europe's expense, which, I repeat, is basically my point.

Is that how you treat allies? As pawns? Or is "old Europe" considered an enemy these days?

[Face]

I'm still curious how many people heard on the news 'Russia invades Georgia' and expected to see Ted Turner pleading for mercy

[Mustard]

Why American wants another Cold War?

Easy, profit motive. Trillions of dollars are to be had under the right circumstances.

Pardon the history lesson, but: One needn't look any further than when the US went to the oil producing middle east countries and said basically, "we want to make you rich, so sell us your oil, with the only caveat being you have to sell your oil to everyone else in dollars and nothing else, and that you also have to buy (with the profits) a percentage of our national debt". Of course they all said yes... except for Iraq and Iran, hmm... and then they all got really rich... rich enough to start buying our gold. Gold had been at about $800/oz when we told them to start buying all of it up, and they did, by the truckload, so to speak. Then (as if by magic) oil prices plunged from $30/barrel to $11/barrel, thus bringing gold down from $800/oz to $300/oz. Now all of a sudden these countries who had been buying up all of our gold at $800/oz were stuck with gold worth $500/oz less than they had just bought it for. Well, faced with the fact that you can't eat gold, they sold most of it back to us for $300/oz, and we profitted immensely from that transaction. And you wonder why most of the middle east doesn't like America, or the rest of the world for that matter...

Well, same shit I think is happening all over again. Hell, its worked so well all the previous times, might as well go back to, and stick with what works. Profit motive, profit motive, profit motive. That is the "why" answer to the question. Its pretty much always the correct answer to almost any question really.

[Archangel]

Yeah, but fucking with some arsehole Arabs is one thing.

We're supposed to be friends and shit, yet America is propping up shitholes like Georgia while (more or less sub rosa) doing everything to fuck us over.

[Philips25]

You're surprised by America's self-serving nature?

Anyways, I don't think its nessecarily a conspiracy by the United States, but I do think that it's America's incompetance in dealing with Russia and a lack of understanding thats contributing greatly to the crisis - which in turn is screwing up Europe and jepardising our own security and energy interests.

And your right about this crisis increasing anti-US sentiments, America is already losing alot of the support it once enjoyed in this country. The UK for a longtime has seen itself as America's bridge to the EU... but between US heavy handedness and beligerance, Iraq and now this America's stock is starting to drop. Basically the rest of the country is simply waking up to the fact that the 'Special Relationship' was a matter of convenience in the first place.

Besides Russia, in recognizing the independance of the two provinces earlier today, is only doing what NATO has done in Albania... despite Russian opposition to the independance of Albania from Serbia. Granting emerging client states sovereignty in reward for sympathetic political systems and market opportunities.

[Hanover Fist]

Georgian "peacekeepers"?



I've yet to hear of a country that sends "peacekeepers" to renegade provinces who want to secede. I'm pretty sure there were no Russian peacekeepers in Chechnya; I'm also sure that Grant wasn't commanding an army of peacekeepers.
Rhetoric is a great tool, but here, we call them "occupation forces".


Yeah peacekeepers from Georgia that were put in place along with Russian "peacekeepers" as part of the 1996 cease fire.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20080816/116081808.html
Russia supports S.Ossetia, Abkhazia against Georgian peacekeepers


14:29 | 16/ 08/ 2008 http://img.rian.ru/i/b_print.gif (http://en.rian.ru/world/20080816/116081808-print.html)
MOSCOW, August 16 (RIA Novosti) - Russia supports Abkhazia and South Ossetia in their decision against the presence of Georgian peacekeepers on their territories, a senior Russian military official said on Saturday.
"The president [of Russia] has clearly stated that after all that had happened neither Abkhazians, nor South Ossetians will accept Georgians as peacekeepers on their territories," said Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the Russian General Staff.
Earlier this week South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity said during a press conference with the Abkhaz leader in Moscow that no Georgian peacekeepers or international observers would be allowed in South Ossetia.
"Only Russian peacekeepers will be allowed in South Ossetia and Abkhazia," he said. "There will be no Georgian peacekeepers on South Ossetian territory."
Kokoity and the Abkhazian President Sergei Bagapsh signed a peace plan in Moscow during a meeting with the Russian president last Thursday. The French-brokered peace agreement, approved by Russia and Georgia Tuesday, requires an immediate ceasefire and troop withdrawal.

[Mustard]

Yeah, but fucking with some arsehole Arabs is one thing.

We're supposed to be friends and shit, yet America is propping up shitholes like Georgia while (more or less sub rosa) doing everything to fuck us over.
Right, but there-in lies another point. America (or at least the powers that be) have done it before with great success (depending which side of the fence you live on), so naturally it will happen again because it did work so well the first time.

When it comes to profit motive, there are friends (the people you're complicit in making money with), there are enemies (the people who are your competition), and then there is everybody else (the people who you are robbing blind). Right now, I'm sorry to say that Old Europe can be categorized as either "everybody else" in some cases, but more likely it would seem Old Europe is the competition. Hence the shift that is taking place...

Hey, I don't like it one fucking bit, but the powers that be are some really sick and twisted people who really have no conscience whatsoever... and I'm not talking about Bush and Co. this time either. The governments are the pawns in this game.

Or to put it this way: Iraq is what happens when the government actually thinks it alone has the power to change the face of the world.

[Archangel]

I think they stopped being peacekeepers at some point.

[Archangel]

Right, but there-in lies another point. America (or at least the powers that be) have done it before with great success (depending which side of the fence you live on), so naturally it will happen again because it did work so well the first time.

When it comes to profit motive, there are friends (the people you're complicit in making money with), there are enemies (the people who are your competition), and then there is everybody else (the people who you are robbing blind). Right now, I'm sorry to say that Old Europe can be categorized as either "everybody else" in some cases, but more likely it would seem Old Europe is the competition. Hence the shift that is taking place...

Hey, I don't like it one fucking bit, but the powers that be are some really sick and twisted people who really have no conscience whatsoever... and I'm not talking about Bush and Co. this time either. The governments are the pawns in this game.


So if the leader of the free world fucks with the other advanced democracies in order to further certain short-term hegemonial goals, propping up any arsehole government that suits its needs, what's that going to do to America's image, hell, its soul in the long run? "Sorry for selling F/A-18s to that murderous despot so he could bomb his own people, but we really needed to show those uppity guys in France and Germany who's boss"?

You might cling to your status for a few years longer, but what kind of country will you be after that?


America never was perfect, but for all her faults, she used to lead by example. And the world respected her for it. That's gone now. You guys used to be steadfast allies to us in times of need, when profit was mutual. Now you couldn't care less whom you fuck over, as long as it gets you what you want.

It's sad really, what 8 years of idiocy run amok have done to what used to be the greatest country in the world.

[Mustard]

the world bank etc... they are the real players
Along with the IMF and a handful of others, that is exactly right. Anyone who actually thinks that governments are in total control anymore are sadly mistaken. There is a puropse to everything that happens. Just look what happened to Brazil when they gave up the Amazon as collateral for loans they got from the World Bank and the IMF to industrialize their nation. When Brazil finally ran out of money, they asked for more loans, and got them, but they had to give up their collateral. Now, a large portion of Brazil doens't belong to Brazill anymore... thats a pretty heavy price to pay if you ask me.

[Archangel]

To paraphrase Stalin, how many tank divisions does the World Bank have?

[Mustard]

So if the leader of the free world fucks with the other advanced democracies in order to further certain short-term hegemonial goals, propping up any arsehole government that suits its needs, what's that going to do to America's image, hell, its soul in the long run? "Sorry for selling F/A-18s to that murderous despot so he could bomb his own people, but we really needed to show those uppity guys in France and Germany who's boss"?

You might cling to your status for a few years longer, but what kind of country will you be after that?


America never was perfect, but for all her faults, she used to lead by example. And the world respected her for it. That's gone now. You guys used to be steadfast allies to us in times of need, when profit was mutual. Now you couldn't care less whom you fuck over, as long as it gets you what you want.

It's sad really, what 8 years of idiocy run amok have done to what used to be the greatest country in the world.
Understand quickly that the powers that be do not give a FUCK about anyone's image, including America's image when it comes to profit motive. In fact, manipulating images in the world affect economic conditions that make it possible to have higher profits. Now, I don't fully understand the motive behind lowering America's image on the world stage given what I just said... I really don't understand what good purpose that serves, except for a possible strategic reason to divide the world from America in order to subvert America in some way in the future, naturally based on profit motive. What kind of country will America be after that? Thats hard to say really. I think it would be easier to say what America won't be to be truthful. The America you and I knew from history and experience is gone as far as I can tell now. It has been run amok by the newish powers that be and will probably never be the same again. As for now, thats the best guess I can offer.

As far as the Idiot-in-Chief goes, well, you know how I feel about that.

Other than that it looks like we're on the same page.

[Mustard]

To paraphrase Stalin, how many tank divisions does the World Bank have?
To paraphrase the World Bank, we own both sides so we really don't give a fuck about tanks.

[freegood]

I don't see it Arch. Sure, we were trying to contain Russia by offering NATO membership to former Soviet bloc nations, but this fiasco seems to be a misstep by Mikheil Saakashvili who thought our guarantee to back them up was a blanket guarantee. Georgia is the clear loser here. It's terms of surrender heavily favor Russia, and the West has to grin and bear it.

I totally doubt the Bush admin wanted this dynamic given that our troops are holed up in sand while energy prices are sky high, but who knows... As for Europe, they had their own approach to encroaching on the Russian sphere by rapidly offering EU membership to nations that don't really deserve it. I'm sure Russia didn't like that either, and it could've been an issue if you guys didn't guzzle down their gas and oil.

Another Cold War won't help us, and it could possibly embolden other states to pull off risky moves because the truth is that Russia can't compete with us step for step anymore should there is a nuke-less war.

If anything, the hype of a Cold War would help Putin consolidate support and prestige at home and abroad.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Saakashvili)

[Claydon]

Also, I've yet to hear anybody dispute that America stands to profit from this fracas at Europe's expense, which, I repeat, is basically my point.

Is that how you treat allies? As pawns? Or is "old Europe" considered an enemy these days?

Amazing, nevermind the fact that the major pipeline running through Georgia is a consortium under the auspices of BP and other EU petroleum companies (and US companies). Perhaps arch is worried about the EUs piggy bank status to the Russians and that Putin may turn off the taps to the EU. Why not....they did it with natural gas to the Ukraine. Oh and....NATO is not just the US, other member states have to decide who gets into NATO. We are in Georgia because it is a strategic point into the middle east with Iran just next door. Im sure Obama will save the EU as well, judging by the wank fest in Berlin a few weeks ago. Because I mean...hey, if the Europeans are fapping over someone, that really motivates me to vote for that person.

[Archangel]

Claydon?


Shut up.

In NATO, what the US says, goes. Germany was very much opposed to much of the eastward expansion, and America's also been lobbying the EU to include other countries, even fucking Turkey.

Nothing you say disproves anything that I posted. Again: The US is severing the ties to the (increasingly less compliant) core European states in favour of those eastern jackasses. Never mind that Saakashvili, Kaczynski and Erdogan are hardly paragons of democracy, but hey, you guys even managed to paint Pinochet, Batista and Musharraf as the good guys.

[Claydon]

Claydon?


Shut up.

In NATO, what the US says, goes. Germany was very much opposed to much of the eastward expansion, and America's also been lobbying the EU to include other countries, even fucking Turkey.

Nothing you say disproves anything that I posted. Again: The US is severing the ties to the (increasingly less compliant) core European states in favour of those eastern jackasses. Never mind that Saakashvili, Kaczynski and Erdogan are hardly paragons of democracy, but hey, you guys even managed to paint Pinochet, Batista and Musharraf as the good guys.

Oh you sure showed me, wow the US deals with less than stellar people. Perhaps this would be a fab time to bring up the tons of money that the Germans and French had tied up with the former Iraqi regime and Iran.

Granted the US is the major player in NATO, I would of course never deny that, however you may want to direct your annoyance with the expansion of the western alliances to the former eastern block countries like at say oh...I don't know...........................the EU?! Why the fuck are you folks bringing in 3rd world former soviet states into the EU beyond the idea of super cheap labor? Why the FUCK would you guys even THINK about allowing Turkey is beyond me. Perhaps we are moving on from western Europe as she no longer serves our interests?

[Hanover Fist]

Heheh Claydon just ass raped Arch, hilarious.

[Axel]

Not really...

Oh you sure showed me, wow the US deals with less than stellar people. Perhaps this would be a fab time to bring up the tons of money that the Germans and French had tied up with the former Iraqi regime and Iran.While USA had nothing to do with him whatsorever, of course?

Saddam Hussein - United States relations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_-_United_States_relations)

Saddam's first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Abdul Karim Qassim.

*** and so on, and so on ***

Under President George H.W. Bush, the U.S. doubled its financial credits for Iraq. Dick Cheney, who was secretary of defense and a statutory member of the National Security Council that reviewed Iraq policy, supported the administration's appeasement policy.
Why the fuck are you folks bringing in 3rd world former soviet states into the EU beyond the idea of super cheap labor?Ummm… and which are those, enlighten us, Claydon?

[Hanover Fist]

Ummm… and which are those, enlighten us, Claydon?

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania which were directly part of the USSR as well as countries like Romania, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Finland, Hungary who were controlled 100% by the USSR are all current members of the EU.

[Axel]

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania which were directly part of the USSRI disagree with declaring Baltic countries, which have temporarly lost their independence in acordance to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, as a 3rd world countries.

as well as countries like Romania, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Finland, Hungary who were controlled 100% by the USSR are all current members of the EU.Maybe we should distinguish between former members of the Warsaw pact and former soviet states?

[kid_vidrio]

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania which were directly part of the USSR as well as countries like Romania, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Finland, Hungary who were controlled 100% by the USSR are all current members of the EU.
Suggesting a tie between Russia and any of those countries, other than the fact that they were forcibly added to the Union, is a little ridiculous.
Bulgaria created the Cyrillic alphabet and tends to look down its nose at Mosco. Romania and Hungary despise Russia. Remember Hungary? Holding out with a last candle hoping we'd show up? I'd say it's the least the West could do to have them in the EU. Historically they're much more part of the west than of the east.
Poland? Please.
Look at any pre-war map.
And as for cheap labor? I dunno about all that, but will do some reading.
Regardless, economic ties and dependence are an age old method of keeping military escalations at bay.

[Archangel]

Yeah.



Givng money to people in exchange for goods is the EXACT SAME THING as helping others kill people. Nice sense of proportion there, mate.

Also, nobody wants Turkey in the EU except Turkey and the US. Bush has been lobbying like a mother fucker to that purpose.

But this is my favourite.

Im sure Obama will save the EU as well, judging by the wank fest in Berlin a few weeks ago. Because I mean...hey, if the Europeans are fapping over someone, that really motivates me to vote for that person.



So you'd only vote for someone if the rest of the world, including your closest allies, hate his fucking guts? Nice. It's pretty much this kind of isolationist, solipsistic and frankly utterly idiotic thinking that has gotten your country to where it is today.

I love people talking about how you cannot vote for Obama because "the Muslims like him". Yeah, being liked and respected by your enemies is a quality no statesman should have, ever.

[Limp]

Arch... shut the fuck up.

[kid_vidrio]

Back on topic, I do think both the Bear and the Eagle want another cold war.
Milking terrorism to support the MIC is causing instability and it's not a great story. The armies of the middle east fall in minutes. And you can't control them.

You can have a massing of armies/navies in a cold war, but no one hauls off and flies planes into buildings. That shit is just bad for business.

[Claydon]

I love people talking about how you cannot vote for Obama because "the Muslims like him". Yeah, being liked and respected by your enemies is a quality no statesman should have, ever.

Calm your menstral cycle. Obama will be despised by the muslims because he is a muslim that left their faith and converted to christianity.

[Archangel]

Arch... shut the fuck up.

Contribute, or GTFO.

[teamusa]

Obama will bring peace, that much is for sure. Like Putin said "we have a reason to believe that the Americans are provoking us for the benefit of one of their presidential candidates, and we will get to the bottom of this." I completely side with Arch.

[Hanover Fist]

Obama will bring peace, that much is for sure. Like Putin said "we have a reason to believe that the Americans are provoking us for the benefit of one of their presidential candidates, and we will get to the bottom of this." I completely side with Arch.

I disagree completely. I think conflicts are much more likely with an Obama presidency because he exudes weakness and inexperience. Every tinpot dictator from North Korea to Zimbabwe will want to test him and see what they can get away with. Joe Biden already told Israel that an Obama presidency would allow Iran to develop nukes, they simply would not go to war over it.
They know Obama will be pushed so far into the No military action corner that they will assume they have carte blanche for anything. Whereas McCain is campaigning as being "tough", so he would naturally be freer to act and respond to international emergencies. I think Obama's hands would be tied to a great deal by the way he campaigned.
Of course there should be a happy medium between the two, but because of the way the campaign has gone, I think both candidates have already cast their die on the craps table of world affairs.

[Area Man]

We've always been at war with Eurasia.

[lce-man]

With Obama as President, I think the chance of another war will be lesser.

[Archangel]

What I would like to know is:



What does the average American know about Georgia? Cheney said that it would be a key future ally, and Mrs Palin talked about how the US might use force to defend that country.

But seriously, is anyone aware of who runs that place, or what goes on in it? Do the American media portray it as a glorious bastion of freedom and democracy, or do they not talk about it at all?

Because if my government said that Syria or Somalia would be a key ally of ours in the near future, and that we'd spill German blood to defend its interests, I'd start voting for someone else ASAP.

[Morfin]

The average American could not point out Georgia on a map to within 1000 miles. The American media has portrayed this to be the Georgians repelling a Russian incursion. The crap about a strategic ally is crap. It is a justification of U.S. bullying and almost daring the Russians to do something as we put missles, bases, whatever, in these countries bordering Russia.

I believe it was Putin that made the comment about putting missiles in Cuba, and that is exactly the point: How would we feel? How itchy would our trigger finger get?

In response to your last point, to me, this discussion about Georgia, Russia, South Ossetia and "American intervention" scares the bejesus out of me. And, yes, I am less likely to vote for anyone that force is a consideration regarding Georgia. Stay the fuck out, America, is my belief.

[VoxAngelikus]

What I would like to know is:

What does the average American know about Georgia? But seriously, is anyone aware of who runs that place, or what goes on in it?

Ha ha ha... I'd love to see a someone go out and interview 20 people off the street and ask them where Georgia is. I'm willing to bet none of them have any fucking clue where it is, who is running the country, or what happens in it. Maybe some of them would know some vague something happened there, and that the Russians did it.

That's because a lot of Americans believe only what is on their televisions.

[Claydon]

My sister had a 4 hour lay over in georgia on the way to armenia, they did not allow the american passengers to leave the aircraft due to the crime issues there.

[fuldstændigamok]

Ha ha ha... I'd love to see a someone go out and interview 20 people off the street and ask them where Georgia is. I'm willing to bet none of them have any fucking clue where it is.

That's because a lot of Americans believe only what is on their televisions.

I'm pretty sure all 20 of them would know exactly where it is. Now, ask them where is Arkansas and it will be an all different story.

[Morfin]

My sister had a 4 hour lay over in georgia on the way to armenia, they did not allow the american passengers to leave the aircraft due to the crime issues there.

The Americans being the criminals or the victims?

[Axel]

I'm pretty sure all 20 of them would know exactly where it is.North of Florida and east of Alabama, right?

[Claydon]

Although I tend to agree with the above posts that americans could not find the country of georgia on a map, recent polling data suggests that a majority of the world believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories. Being a moron is an international trait.

Ie the french going to N. Korea to perform brain surgery on the dear leader.

[Pollo]

North of Florida and east of Alabama, right?

you know, Charles Barkley was asked to locate the republic of Georgia on a map one time and that's where he pointed. he actually thought it was a trick question.

hilarity indeed, but it wasn't like I was surprised. I wish I could find the video.

[Archangel]

The American people are being hoodwinked into entering an alliance with a government that only a few years ago, imprisoned almost all of the opposition parties' leaders and murdered dissenters left, right, and centre.

Saakashvili is about as much of a democratic head of state as Saddam Hussein was: Compared to him, Putin was Thomas Jefferson.

Russia invaded Georgia because Georgia was preparing to do some ethnic cleansing on ethnic Russians in the area. Yet the US is seriously trying to sell that shithole as a pillar of democracy, a VP talks about how it will be a great ally to NATO and the US, a VP candidate talks about defending that murdering bastard's interests with American lives, and EVERYBODY IS FUCKING GOING ALONG WITH IT.

Now I know that the average American doesn't know shit about world affairs, and probably couldn't care much less.

What shocks me is that Europe (the proper Europe, that is) is falling for this shit. America is allying itself with scumbags to lessen our importance in NATO and the world stage, and instead of telling a militarily and economically floundering US to shut the fuck up, we're actually playing along. I mean, what the fuck? People in Germany do know a thing or two about Georgia, seeing as how then Soviet foreign minister and later first president of Georgia, Shevardnadze, was one of the chief architects of the fall of the Berlin Wall. And we all were saddened by how a man we all respected for waht he did sank into corruption and despotism.

And despite the fact that everybody who knows their shit is saying that an alliance with Georgia is even worse than getting Poland into NATO (what were we think... oh, right, the US lobbied for it), and that we're unreasonably and unnecessarily provoking a resurgent Russia, people seem to be oblivious to it, and just going along.

Beats me.

[Morfin]

America's financial system is teetering on the brink and we've got umpty-thousand troops in Iraq with more than enough to do, and the U.S. is sticking its nose into the affairs of some two-bit country and its one-bit breakaway state? What is this: Nixon going to China and Moscow to divert attention from Watergate problems?

[VoxAngelikus]

The American people are being hoodwinked into entering an alliance with a government that only a few years ago, imprisoned almost all of the opposition parties' leaders and murdered dissenters left, right, and centre.

Saakashvili is about as much of a democratic head of state as Saddam Hussein was: Compared to him, Putin was Thomas Jefferson.

Russia invaded Georgia because Georgia was preparing to do some ethnic cleansing on ethnic Russians in the area. Yet the US is seriously trying to sell that shithole as a pillar of democracy, a VP talks about how it will be a great ally to NATO and the US, a VP candidate talks about defending that murdering bastard's interests with American lives, and EVERYBODY IS FUCKING GOING ALONG WITH IT.

Now I know that the average American doesn't know shit about world affairs, and probably couldn't care much less.

What shocks me is that Europe (the proper Europe, that is) is falling for this shit. America is allying itself with scumbags to lessen our importance in NATO and the world stage, and instead of telling a militarily and economically floundering US to shut the fuck up, we're actually playing along. I mean, what the fuck? People in Germany do know a thing or two about Georgia, seeing as how then Soviet foreign minister and later first president of Georgia, Shevardnadze, was one of the chief architects of the fall of the Berlin Wall. And we all were saddened by how a man we all respected for waht he did sank into corruption and despotism.

And despite the fact that everybody who knows their shit is saying that an alliance with Georgia is even worse than getting Poland into NATO (what were we think... oh, right, the US lobbied for it), and that we're unreasonably and unnecessarily provoking a resurgent Russia, people seem to be oblivious to it, and just going along.

Beats me.

You know whose fault it is, Arch. The Zionists.

The Jews did 9/11. Now they want to do WWIII.

[Archangel]

America's financial system is teetering on the brink and we've got umpty-thousand troops in Iraq with more than enough to do, and the U.S. is sticking its nose into the affairs of some two-bit country and its one-bit breakaway state? What is this: Nixon going to China and Moscow to divert attention from Watergate problems?

And just like the Bush administration, you forgot all about Afghanistan.

[Morfin]

Afghanistan is a lesson that no one should forget, not Russia (the Soviet Union) nor the U.S. due to the people it backed/funded/educated.

[Archangel]

Rudyard Kipling wrote a few words about fighting in Afghanistan. Funny how the words of smart people are always disregarded by self-important idiots, with predictable results...




A great and glorious thing it is
To learn, for seven years or so,
The Lord knows what of that and this,
Ere reckoned fit to face the foe --
The flying bullet down the Pass,
That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass".

Three hundred pounds per annum spent
On making brain and body meeter
For all the murderous intent
Comprised in "villanous saltpetre"!
And after -- ask the Yusufzaies
What comes of all our 'ologies.

A scrimmage in a Border Station --
A canter down some dark defile --
Two thousand pounds of education
Drops to a ten-rupee jezail --
The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

No proposition Euclid wrote,
No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
Or ward the tulwar's downward blow
Strike hard who cares -- shoot straight who can --
The odds are on the cheaper man.

One sword-knot stolen from the camp
Will pay for all the school expenses
Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
But, being blessed with perfect sight,
Picks off our messmates left and right.

With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem,
The troop-ships bring us one by one,
At vast expense of time and steam,
To slay Afridis where they run.
The "captives of our bow and spear"
Are cheap -- alas! as we are dear.



Sound familiar?

[Claydon]

Rudyard Kipling wrote a few words about fighting in Afghanistan. Funny how the words of smart people are always disregarded by self-important idiots, with predictable results...




A great and glorious thing it is
To learn, for seven years or so,
The Lord knows what of that and this,
Ere reckoned fit to face the foe --
The flying bullet down the Pass,
That whistles clear: "All flesh is grass."

Three hundred pounds per annum spent
On making brain and body meeter
For all the murderous intent
Comprised in "villanous saltpetre!"
And after -- ask the Yusufzaies
What comes of all our 'ologies.

A scrimmage in a Border Station --
A canter down some dark defile --
Two thousand pounds of education
Drops to a ten-rupee jezail --
The Crammer's boast, the Squadron's pride,
Shot like a rabbit in a ride!

No proposition Euclid wrote,
No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
Or ward the tulwar's downward blow
Strike hard who cares -- shoot straight who can --
The odds are on the cheaper man.

One sword-knot stolen from the camp
Will pay for all the school expenses
Of any Kurrum Valley scamp
Who knows no word of moods and tenses,
But, being blessed with perfect sight,
Picks off our messmates left and right.

With home-bred hordes the hillsides teem,
The troop-ships bring us one by one,
At vast expense of time and steam,
To slay Afridis where they run.
The "captives of our bow and spear"
Are cheap -- alas! as we are dear.



Sound familiar?

You are quoting one of the more racist, ethnocentric writers of the Victorian era?! Granted what you are quoting is true but still.....

[Claydon]

Another Kipling piece

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

[Archangel]

So if someone with questionable political views states that great powers and their highly trained soldiers fighting in Afghanistan is a fool's errand, what difference do his opinions make? This is so typical - attack someone's character etc if his views are uncomfortable.

I hardly agree with Adolf Hitler's views on 95% of things: That does not mean that his statement that the reparations demanded by the French were ridiculous is false.

[Claydon]

So if someone with questionable political views states that great powers and their highly trained soldiers fighting in Afghanistan is a fool's errand, what difference do his opinions make? This is so typical - attack someone's character etc if his views are uncomfortable.

I hardly agree with Adolf Hitler's views on 95% of things: That does not mean that his statement that the reparations demanded by the French were ridiculous is false.

The difference is this, the british were there with single shot enfield rifles (which US and NATO troops have found all over afghanistan in goo condition....cool shit), and the US is using special forces and predator drones. of course, the fact that the french are telling the germans that they need to get into a fight is a fascinating switch.

[Archangel]

Why are you bringing Germany into this? Are you that desperate to measure dick sizes that you have to resort to the power of your military?

Your superpower strength got your arses kicked in Vietnam, didn't help you worth shit in Iraq, and was simply not used properly in Afghanistan. I said that your retard president and his Keystone Kops mismanaged Afghanistan for some jackassery in Iraq - FACT - and you talk about how others are pussies. What successes are your high-tech troops having there, huh? Found bin Laden, have you? Pacified the region? Beaten the Taliban? Made Pakistan safer?

Seriously, stay the fuck on topic.

[Claydon]

Why are you bringing Germany into this? Are you that desperate to measure dick sizes that you have to resort to the power of your military?

Your superpower strength got your arses kicked in Vietnam, didn't help you worth shit in Iraq, and was simply not used properly in Afghanistan. I said that your retard president and his Keystone Kops mismanaged Afghanistan for some jackassery in Iraq - FACT - and you talk about how others are pussies. What successes are your high-tech troops having there, huh? Found bin Laden, have you? Pacified the region? Beaten the Taliban? Made Pakistan safer?

Seriously, stay the fuck on topic.

I would never deny that bush the 'decider' has not managed military actions well. In fact I think he only got things right by placing the right people in the various positions of authority as of late 2006. Sec Def Gates, and Gen. Patreus are the most obvious. Bin Laden continues to evade US forces because he is in pakistan, and yes Bush the 'decider' once again was attempting to be buddies with the Pakis in order to keep them happy. I wish there had been cross border raids in 2002 to get these guys, but bush dropped the ball as per the usual.

[Yelram]

ARRRGH, Arch, sometimes I swear you are the most easily deluded super-intelligent person there is. Iraq has been the single most successful military campaign in the history of the modern world. We never lost a battle in Vietnam, the battle we lost was at home, in the media, much like today. Only suddenly, all the news from Iraq has disappeared. VANISHED from the headlines, I guess its because we lost right? And this nonsense you are spewing about Georgia, I'd swear you were sucking Putins cock. You really are trying to convince us that Georgia is the expansionist,ethic cleansing component in this conflict, and Russia is just defending its people? Have you gone mad? And you really think we want to be protecting Europe? That makes us so much more powerful right? That we have to use OUR MONEY to defend YOUR PEOPLE, while YOU POINT AT US AND CALL US GREEDY. And yet ignore the fact that the European Union has made a mockery of your countries sovereignty. We dont want to be the super power here buddy, maybe you havent figured that out, we tried it TWICE, and all you schmucks over there did was start another war, and forced us to come play baby sitter and lend you all the money to rebuild your "superior" countries. Trust me, I'd much rather have all of our troops in our country, but who would be the world police then? CHINA??? Seriously, I know you spend your days entrenched in the halls of accommmydemia, but take the bag off your head and look around. For the last 40 years, the US has been doing nothing but insuring world peace.

[Archangel]

Welcome back, Yelram.

Good to see that you're still as crazy as ever. It's funny how you offer absolutely NO arguments to prove me wrong, and proceed directly to calling me a victim of leftist propaganda (ie someone who doesn't exclusively watch FOX News). And yeah, Iraq is indeed the greatest military success ever. Salamis? Waterloo? El Alamein? Small fry.

Pretty much every foreign relations expert I've talked with or heard speak agrees with me, so thanks for your input, and fuck off. No American news station has reported what went on Georgia. NONE. So I love the idea that you know what's going on. Saakashvili, who freely admits to imprisoning dissenters, has said repeatedly in the past how Georgia wouldn't tolerate Russian nationalism in its provinces, and shot the shit out of Tskinvali. But if Dick says that he's all right, he must be, model democrat that Cheney is.


As I keep saying, you have fun with your new allies. When VW buys GM for $1 and lets go half a million workers, we'll talk again.

[Yelram]

Welcome back, Yelram.

Good to see that you're still as crazy as ever. It's funny how you offer absolutely NO arguments to prove me wrong, and proceed directly to calling me a victim of leftist propaganda (ie someone who doesn't exclusively watch FOX News). And yeah, Iraq is indeed the greatest military success ever. Salamis? Waterloo? El Alamein? Small fry.

Pretty much every foreign relations expert I've talked with or heard speak agrees with me, so thanks for your input, and fuck off. No American news station has reported what went on Georgia. NONE. So I love the idea that you know what's going on. Saakashvili, who freely admits to imprisoning dissenters, has said repeatedly in the past how Georgia wouldn't tolerate Russian nationalism in its provinces, and shot the shit out of Tskinvali. But if Dick says that he's all right, he must be, model democrat that Cheney is.


As I keep saying, you have fun with your new allies. When VW buys GM for $1 and lets go half a million workers, we'll talk again.

I didnt have to make the arguments, they make themselves. I never admitted to knowing anything, I only questioned the logic behind the mention, of Georgia being the antagonist against Russia. I'm sure if we attacked Mexico tomorrow for all the bullshit going on on our borders, we'd be protecting our own, right? And not the evil expansionist empirical superpower.

You believe there is any such thing as a country owning companies (outside of a few socialist exceptions), in todays globalized economy?
I own stock in VW (firguartively of course,I might as well as many parts as I buy). And i'm sure a few of your countrymen own stock in many of our companies. Its not as cut and dry as "derr vw is da german car". If they do buy GM, whats the worst they could do? SHIP THE JOBS OVERSEAS???,
Sometimes I think you're too smart man. Literally, like its affecting your perspective on the world negatively.

[Hanover Fist]

When I see Arch post about world affairs for some reason the saying "too clever by half" always seems to come to mind.

[Yelram]

I'm bringing this back since Arch wont show up to try and support his assertions. I'd like to see the proof you have that the Georgians were not provoked into attack, and that the Russians dont have alot more to gain by provoking Georgia, and then trying to play "peacemaker" by invading them, than Georgia does in gaining south Ossetia.

Or maybe its alot more like this "What are Georgia and Russia fighting over?
They are not fighting over any of the nonsense that this article and other articles are spewing. They are fighting over a United States supported oil pipe line operated by British Petroleum (BP) (Kuwait is a big part of BP. Kuwait and the United States are joined at the hip). The pipe line runs from Baku on the Caspian Sea to the Georgian coast on the Black Sea. A proposed natural gas pipeline is planned. These pipe lines by pass Russia, thus Russia has gone to war in order to destabilize the government of Georgia and stop the pipelines from circumventing Russia’s attempted monopoly on the distribution of natural gas and oil to Europe. This is a war over United States backed oil companies’ verses Russian backed oil companies control of the supply and distribution of the natural gas and oil from the Caspian basin to Europe. If any one says differently then they don’t know what they are talking about or they are lying! "

[Claydon]

War about resources and economics? MADDNESS!

[Archangel]

There were 500 Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, and Georgian troops razed Tskinvali to the ground before any Russian ever dropped a bomb on Georgia. Abkhazia is largely Russian ethnically, and was in fact its own Soviet Republic until Iosif fucking Stalin, a Georgian, declared it part of the Georgian SSR. Now its people want out, just like Chechnya wanted to leave the Russian Federation, or Kosovo wanted to leave Serbia. Its claims based on international right are just as valid. So if Serbians murder Kosovars, and we bomb Belgrade to help them achieve that, that's okay, but if a people friendly with the Russians want to leave another country that murders its people, and the Russians do THE EXACT SAME THING that NATO did in Kosovo, somehow it's "an unwarranted act of aggression"?


How stupid does one have to be not to recognise that hypocrisy?

Read it again. THE EXACT SAME THING. And so what if Russia stirred independence movements in Abkhazia? Like you/we didn't tell Kosovo that declaring independence would be okay. Shit, we were just done bombing Serbia, ONE OF RUSSIA'S CLOSEST HISTORIC ALLIES, for the gayness in Bosnia, Slovenia and Croatia. So hey, let's bomb them again. And then, let's defend Stalin's own regional policy decisions.

And again, while we're on the subject of not answering questions, why are you defending Georgia, a country that no American is told jack shit about, again? It's a totalitarian state ruled by an utter bastard who murders and imprisons dissenters, yet for some reason, the leader of the free world loves them some Tbilisi. I wonder why that is.


Look, if you're gonna go on believing that America is a white knight in shining armour which would rather tear up the Constitution than start proxy wars, invade other countries or fuck over allies, I'm not going to be able to change your mind. Some people think Jews are an inferior race, some people think that men are born responsible, some people believe that communism is the way to go, and some people believe that America can do no wrong.

Personally, however, I believe that Dick Cheney would murder everybody in Africa or Europe if he thought that that would further short-term US economic interests. Good thing it probably doesn't, then.

[Archangel]

Oh, and evil Russia, fighting over oil.


When exactly did hypocrisy become the main trait of American political thought?

[Claydon]

Oh, and evil Russia, fighting over oil.


When exactly did hypocrisy become the main trait of American political thought?

So Russia was ok to take action but you chastise the US for taking actions in the world with regards to resources.

Yah...thats not hypocrisy at all arch.

[VoxAngelikus]

If America is looking for another Cold War, here is another brick in the wall.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/09/22/russia.venezuela.ap/index.html

Russian navy ships head to Venezuelasels will conduct joint maneuvers with Venezuelan navy, official says

MOSCOW, Russia (AP) -- A Russian navy squadron set off for Venezuela on Monday, an official said, in a deployment of Russian military power to the Western Hemisphere unprecedented since
the Cold War.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/WORLD/americas/09/22/russia.venezuela.ap/art.russia.ap.jpg

The nuclear-powered Peter the Great cruiser, pictured in 2004, and three other ships are off to Venezuela.

The Kremlin has moved to intensify contacts with Venezuela, Cuba and other Latin American nations amid increasingly strained relations with Washington after last month's war between Russia and Georgia.

During the Cold War, Latin America became an ideological battleground between the Soviet Union and the United States.

Russian navy spokesman Igor Dygalo said the nuclear-powered Peter the Great cruiser accompanied by three other ships sailed from the Northern Fleet's base of Severomorsk on Monday. The ships will cover about 15,000 nautical miles to conduct joint maneuvers with the Venezuelan navy, he told The Associated Press.

Dygalo refused to comment on Monday's report in the daily Izvestia claiming that the ships were to make a stopover in the Syrian port of Tartus on their way to Venezuela. Russian officials said the Soviet-era base there was being renovated to serve as a foothold for a permanent Russian navy presence in the Mediterranean.

The deployment follows a weeklong visit to Venezuela by a pair of Russian strategic bombers and comes as Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Hugo_Chavez) -- an unbridled critic of U.S. foreign policy who has close ties with Moscow -- plans to visit Moscow this week. It will be Chavez's second trip to Russia in about two months.

The intensifying contacts with Venezuela appear to be a response to the U.S. dispatch of warships to deliver aid to Georgia, which angered the Kremlin.

"It's a show of the Kremlin irritation about the U.S. deployment to Georgia. It's a signal to the United States: You have broken into our zone of influence, and we will show you that we can enter yours," said independent military analyst Alexander Golts. Golts added that the small Russian squadron could not pose any threat to the United States.

"Without protection from the air, it makes a sitting duck," Golts said. "It's ridiculous to even talk about the Russian ships providing a counterweight to the U.S. Navy."

Chavez said in an interview with Russian television broadcast Sunday that Latin America needs a strong friendship with Russia to help reduce U.S. influence and keep peace in the region.

In separate comments on his Sunday TV and radio program, he joked that he will be making his international tour to Russia and other countries this week aboard the "super-bombers that Medvedev loaned me," a reference to Russian President Dmitry Medvedev. "Gentlemen of the CIA, to be clear, I'm joking," Chavez said with a laugh.

He repeatedly has warned that the U.S. Navy poses a threat to Venezuela.

Russia (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Russia) has signed weapons contracts worth more than $4 billion with Venezuela since 2005 to supply fighter jets, helicopters and 100,000 Kalashnikov assault rifles. Chavez's government is in talks to buy Russian submarines, air defense systems and armored vehicles and more Sukhoi fighter jets.

Russian and Venezuelan leaders also have talked about boosting cooperation in the energy sphere to create what Chavez has called "a new strategic energy alliance."

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Igor Sechin, who visited Venezuela (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Venezuela) last week, announced that five of Russia's biggest oil companies are looking to form a consortium to increase Latin American operations and to build a $6.5 billion refinery to process Venezuela's tarlike heavy crude. Such an investment could help Venezuela, the world's ninth-biggest oil producer, wean itself from the U.S. refineries on which it depends to process much of its crude.

Russia's Gazprom state gas monopoly also said in a statement Monday that its delegation that visited Venezuela last week signed a tentative agreement to tap its offshore gas fields.


Sechin warned the United States that it should not view Latin America (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Latin_America) as its own backyard. "It would be wrong to talk about one nation having exclusive rights to this zone," he said in an interview broadcast Sunday.

[Archangel]

So Russia was ok to take action but you chastise the US for taking actions in the world with regards to resources.

Yah...thats not hypocrisy at all arch.

No, I don't condone killing people over oil AT ALL. I just point out the hypocrisy of those who do it and chastise others for doing the same.

And euphemisms are a lovely thing, aren't they. "Taking actions in the world with regards to resources" is a nice way of talking about a hundred thousand dead people.

Oh, and by the way, if Saddam had been stupid enough to kill US troops stationed in Saudi or the Emirates, I'd have been all for the invasion of Iraq.

[Axel]

Russians do THE EXACT SAME THING that NATO did in Kosovo.My words exactly, yet I have to add:

that is generally perceived as the most justified NATO intervention lately
Ossetians have exercised their statutory right for secession and declaration of independence
Russia reacted on Georgian military action literarily on it’s own backyard, not on the other side of the world
why are you defending Georgia, a country that no American is told jack shit about, again? It's a totalitarian state ruled by an utter bastard who murders and imprisons dissenters...… as a huge downfall after the Eduard Shevardnadze's enlightened era.

Seriously, what the fuck do you know about Mikheil Saakashvili and his regime, Claydon?

[Claydon]

Cute, if canada started handing out passports to say the people of north washington state then I suppose that would be a ok in your books. Course, the next battleground is Ukraine.

[Axel]

Wait, do Washingtonians have their own nationality, language and history, different from the rest of the USA? Does Washington have a status of autonomous legal entity by international laws, and a statutory right to declare the independence?

Again, NATO did the exact same thing in Kosovo.

[Claydon]

Wait, do Washingtonians have their own nationality, language and history, different from the rest of the USA? Does Washington have a status of autonomous legal entity by international laws, and a statutory right to declare the independence?

Again, NATO did the exact same thing in Kosovo.

Yah...some washingtonians do have such things....called native americans.

[Archangel]

"The next battleground is Ukraine"


The fucking arrogance of these people.

Trust me, NOBODY thinks that pitting the Ukraine (sic) against Russia is a good idea. Except fucking retards like you, who have never even heard of the Kievan Rus. The Cold War is over, and with it, your stranglehold on Europe. Bloody deal with it. Have you heard the rhetoric from Paris and Berlin recently? We're back on Russia's side now.

And what the fuck DO YOU WANT IN THE UKRAINE, ANYWAY?

Cute, if canada started handing out passports to say the people of north washington state then I suppose that would be a ok in your books.

Serously? We wouldn't fucking care about what people who don't know shit about Europe did with other people who didn't know shit about Europe.


Seriously, stop manifesting your arrogant, boorish American fucking ignorance about Europe in every single one of your posts. Stick to talking about how the Democrats are gonna raise your taxes. Two of the smartest Europeans on these boards are telling you that you're dead bloody wrong, yet you insist on acting like our opinion doesn't sodding count, and try to EDUCATE us on European affairs!

And you're far dumber and less educated than either me or Axel.

I dunno, you used to be a more or less okay guy, your Euro-wannabe-ness aside, but ever since you've been trying to act the tough patriotic macho, you've turned into a total fucking douche bag.

[Archangel]

… as a huge downfall after the Eduard Shevardnadze's enlightened era.

Who?

Seriously though:

People in Germany do know a thing or two about Georgia, seeing as how then Soviet foreign minister and later first president of Georgia, Shevardnadze, was one of the chief architects of the fall of the Berlin Wall. And we all were saddened by how a man we all respected for waht he did sank into corruption and despotism.



Seriously, what the fuck do you know about Mikheil Saakashvili and his regime, Claydon?

That they're a bastion of democracy and a vital future US ally.

Because American television says so, in between CSI and America's Next Top Model.


Oh, and by the way, arrogance in the face of idiocy and ignorance is justified. Yours isn't, faggot.

[Archangel]

Axel, Claydon trying to tell us about how Europe works is like him trying to tell women that they have a dick, because they do in the porn he watches.

[Axel]

Ditto^

Claydon, maybe I can't judge objectively what's going on in the US, but from a far distance it seems that your current government isn't capable to deal reasonably with consequences of hurricanes and financial market crisis, what else with international affairs in such a distant place as Caucasus area.

On the other side, I’m sure that an average American has no clue about what’s really going on in that part of the world.

Republic of South Ossetia had exactly the same right to secede apart from Georgia, as Georgia had from the former Soviet Union. A constitutional right that American states don’t have, I guess?

[Archangel]

So, to summarise:

- Kosovo, a region that has no connections to the West, has a right to secede from Serbia.

- Abkhazia and S Ossetia, regions closely linked to Russia, have a right to secede rom Georgia.

But:

- Serbia is wrong in attacking Kosovo militarily to suppress independence movements.

- Georgia is totally justified in attacking Abkhazia and S Ossetia in order to keep them from seceding.

And:

- NATO is justified in bombing Belgrade and the Serbian military (the Serbian ministry of defence building is STILL in ruins) to punish them for their actions against the Kosovars and drive them out of the occupied territories.

- Russia bombing Gori and the Georgian military to punish them for their actions and to drive them out of Abkhazia and S Ossetia is "an unwarranted and disproportionate act of aggression".


Anyone see what's wrong here?



And Claydon, Axel is from the former Yugoslavia. He fucking fought in a war in that country. If he says that there are parallels between the situation in the Caucasus and the one in the Balkans, your ignorant arse had better shut the fuck up and listen.

[Okie Medicvet]

Ya'll do know about the Russian ships in the Syrian port, right?

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/09/19/Sources_Russian_warships_in_Syrian_port/UPI-23521221842003/


and ifya'll are going to quote kipling, please at least let it be one of his more decent poems:

http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/tommy.html

[Axel]

Ya'll do know about the Russian ships in the Syrian port, right?

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/09/19/Sources_Russian_warships_in_Syrian_port/UPI-23521221842003/ Consequences:

Ukraine Announces New Restrictions on Russia Fleet (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3673684)

KIEV, Ukraine - Russian warships deployed off Georgia must obtain Ukraine's permission before returning to their base in the port of Sevastopol, a Ukrainian official was quoted by Interfax as saying Aug. 14.

This was necessary because use of Russian ships based in Ukraine against "third countries" could lead to attacks on Ukrainian territory, endangering Ukrainian citizens, said Viktor Semyonov, a senior Ukrainian official responsible for relations with Russia's Black Sea fleet.
…
Russia has maintained its historic Black Sea fleet base in Sevastopol since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 and the current Russian lease on the facility expires in 2017.

Russia may relocate Black Sea Fleet to Syrian port (http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2006/russia-060602-rianovosti01.htm)

MOSCOW, June 2 (RIA Novosti) - Russia has started dredging at a Syrian port where it maintains a logistical supply point with a possible eye to turning it into a full-fledged naval base, a respected Russian business daily said Friday.

Tartus, the second most important Syrian port on the Mediterranean, could be transformed into a base for Black Sea Fleet warships when they are redeployed from the Ukrainian port of Sevastopol, Kommersant daily said, quoting sources in Russia's diplomatic service and the Defense Ministry.

[Yelram]

There were 500 Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, and Georgian troops razed Tskinvali to the ground before any Russian ever dropped a bomb on Georgia. Abkhazia is largely Russian ethnically, and was in fact its own Soviet Republic until Iosif fucking Stalin, a Georgian, declared it part of the Georgian SSR. Now its people want out, just like Chechnya wanted to leave the Russian Federation, or Kosovo wanted to leave Serbia. Its claims based on international right are just as valid. So if Serbians murder Kosovars, and we bomb Belgrade to help them achieve that, that's okay, but if a people friendly with the Russians want to leave another country that murders its people, and the Russians do THE EXACT SAME THING that NATO did in Kosovo, somehow it's "an unwarranted act of aggression"?


How stupid does one have to be not to recognise that hypocrisy?

Read it again. THE EXACT SAME THING. And so what if Russia stirred independence movements in Abkhazia? Like you/we didn't tell Kosovo that declaring independence would be okay. Shit, we were just done bombing Serbia, ONE OF RUSSIA'S CLOSEST HISTORIC ALLIES, for the gayness in Bosnia, Slovenia and Croatia. So hey, let's bomb them again. And then, let's defend Stalin's own regional policy decisions.

And again, while we're on the subject of not answering questions, why are you defending Georgia, a country that no American is told jack shit about, again? It's a totalitarian state ruled by an utter bastard who murders and imprisons dissenters, yet for some reason, the leader of the free world loves them some Tbilisi. I wonder why that is.


Look, if you're gonna go on believing that America is a white knight in shining armour which would rather tear up the Constitution than start proxy wars, invade other countries or fuck over allies, I'm not going to be able to change your mind. Some people think Jews are an inferior race, some people think that men are born responsible, some people believe that communism is the way to go, and some people believe that America can do no wrong.

Personally, however, I believe that Dick Cheney would murder everybody in Africa or Europe if he thought that that would further short-term US economic interests. Good thing it probably doesn't, then.


Please show me the history where the United States invades places and takes the resources. The oil we drill out of fucking Alaska goes on the free market (to Japan), what makes you think the Iraqi oil would be different? We secure resources for the rest of the fucking world. We should just pull out of Europe and watch how fast you little pussies beg for us back. I can show you where your country and France were abusing the UNs program that was specifically targeted towards feeding starving Iraqis. And they didnt fire a single bullet. Russia most certainly started hostilities in Georgia, they did it by proxy, using seperatists to fight to the point where Georgia had no choice. Much like how Syria and Iran do with palestine and Israel. The US economic interests are also YOURS dumbass. Just your army is so totally impotent you need the "big bad US" to come and let us loose American lives so that you can benefit from the security we insure.

And I'd like a section by section commentary on this article..If you're so sure you know what you're talking about.

Let me just remind you the facts:
Russia:



As soon as Mr.Putin became the president of Russian federation Russia gave away it's passports in the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and "Samachablo" region (South Ossetia), thus creating "Russian citizens" Sure it was completely unlawful and this action could not have met any international civilised norms.




I will not even list all the provocations that Russian special services were committing in Georgia... like the Bombing of financial police regional HQ in Gori. Or like the spy scandal between Georgia and Russia, during which Russian "GRU" officers were arrested in Georgia and later on handed over by Red Cross to Russia.

There were numerous such cases and it's useless to go listing them all now...
*[In July 2007] Russia announced a withdrawal from the Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty, limiting military forces in [Europe] and the Caucasus.



Putin has stated that the recognition of the Kosovo's independence would be followed by serious asymmetric measures including military. (Despite the obvious complete difference in the Georgian conflicts: read the "ETHNIC CLEANSING" section.)




To the stated above the Putin's statement over "Polish missile defence systems" that US was planning to put in that country has added fuel with Putin stating yet again that "asymmetric actions including military" would be taken as a response.




In April NATO has refused to grant MAP (Membership Action Plan) to Ukraine and Georgia and stated that the "Both Ukraine and Georgia will become members one day and that the issue of "MAP" would have been revisited in December 2008."

This basically meant that Russia had to do something before December or Georgia could get MAP a last step before actual membership in the NATO bloc. Well it did... something horrible.



Among the last actions done by Putin as a president(but not a ruler) of Russia was lifting sanctions on Georgia's sepparatists and establishing direct govermental links with them. Thus breaking the agreements of the CIS.


• Russia was long in preparation of this assault as many provocations including Bombing Georgia villages by Russian planes (Tsitelubani incident) and downing the Georgian drone over Abkhazian autonomy.

• AntiGeorgian sentiment and war propaganda in Russian media reached new heights just prior Russian invasion.

•In May 2008, Russian paratroopers were sent to reinforce the "peacekeepers" in Abkhazia, violating all agreements.
(Few weeks before Russian invasion, it was vividly portrayed in the Russian media)

• Russian railway military has entered to Abkhazia to fix the railway paths… Russia claimed "humanitarian" reasons, but a week after they finished their reparation and pulled out from Abkhazia Russian tanks started to movie by that military railroad and a war has begun.

• Just few days before Russian invasion, Russia's 58th army held its large scale military exercises. "Caucasus 2008 - Peace enforcement" every soldier had a propaganda paper with "How Russia Would Enforce Peace To Georgia" - This was before any war.
This was in few km from the Georgian border, just outside the "Roki" tunnel.

• Russia started evacuating majority of civilians from Tskinvali region(South Ossetia) three weeks prior Russian invasion, this was campaigned in the Russian media as all the above too.

• Russian minister of foreign affairs Lavrov told Con. Rice in the private conversation that "Saakashvili must go" and the rhetoric in the UN only added up to the Russian planned aggression to try to simulate "Serbia's split" conditions for it's news audience, only the situation was and is quite the opposite… It's the Georgians who were displaced from Abkhazia and South Ossetia not anyone else.

• Georgian web sited were under cyber attack starting from a week before Russian invasion and war.

• Russian military airplanes numerously violated Georgian airspace, including a day before Condolisa Rice arrival to Tbilisi… about -7-8 days before Russian invasion. But unlike in all such violations in the past this was the fist time Russian side has admitted that it was Russim airplanes, usually they were stating that it was all "Georgian paranoia"



The separatist side (Russian FSB and special services) started massive artillery assault of Georgian village "TAMARASHENI" to the north from Tskinvali. All the Georgian attempts to contact Russian side failed. Marat Kulahmetov the Russian "peacekeepers" general has stated that the "separatists have gone crazy and do not listen to anyone"

After four hours of continues shelling of Georgian villages Tamarasheni and Ergneti Georgian president ordered defence minister to send a small number of troops to Tskinvali to stop the shelling of Georgian population. Later as Russian Tanks started to move more Georgian forces had to enter the conflict zone.

About 40 minutes after that Putin has stated over 2000 dead(That was proved to be completley wrong by HRW, later) and invaded Georgia from a "Roki" tunnel where all this time Russian 58th army was waiting for it's time.

Later the number of dead have been proved false by Human Rights Watch group (at the spot) and concluded that this was a mere excuse for the invasion of the sovereign country.
Georgia:

• Georgia was largely unprepared for the Russian attack, 2000 elite troops (out of total 27.000) soldiers were in Iraq, who were called back after Russian invasion has begun.
Not to mention that if Georgia considered attack on Tskinvali the winter would have been the best timing for that as the snow makes the passage to "Roki" tunnel impassable for heavy Russian armor. At the same time for Russia the August would have been the best time for a quick war with Georgia and it's clear that Putin expected that Georgian government and president would flee the country as the Russians would appoint someone from their circle, some ethnic Georgian maybe. The same that happened during Russian invasion of Democratic Republic Of Georgia in 1921.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_Georgia
Also during August the majority of world's leaders and officials are on holidays not to mention the Olympics that would ideally cover the news of Russian Blitzkrieg. It would have to be finished, before the news would even break out.

Russian journalist Ulia Latinia also has some interesting words about this conflict here:
http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6550&Itemid=65 (This interview is in Russian)

As does the Georgian president on the events that have led to this conflict:
http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19282
JUST LOOK AT THE MAP, ONCE:

As I can clearly see, because of the constant information propaganda in Russian news sources many Russians believe that Georgia has invaded Russia and I have heard thought that Georgia wanted to conquer Russian territory… Very foolish, but it's what you get when you trust all your media to KGB.
The tunnel that was built between Russia and Georgia, "Roki" tunnel is the ONLY physical border that was built in late 1980s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Georgia_high_detail_map.png
ETHNIC CLEANSING: (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Who is a war criminal:

Before 1993 - over 85% of the population in Abkhazia were ethnic Georgians!

Before 1994 - over 92% of population in South Ossetia were ethnic Georgians!

After brutal ethnic cleansing by Russian military, Chechens (including Shamil Basaev), north Caucasian criminals and Cossacks the population
Has be reduced to 4% and 35% respectively.

After last August 2008 Russian invasion the ethnic Georgian population has been reduced to 0% in both Georgian regions.

This my friends is called ethnic cleansing and it's a horrible crime!
WHAT HAPPENDED DURING THE LAST RUSSIAN INVASION--->

HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH REPORT:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/28/georgi19712.htm (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
RUSSIA'S "REASON" FOR INVASION:

Just before the Russian invasion kicked into an active phase Putin claimed 2000 civilian deaths. This was proved very suspiciously exaggerated by the Human Rights Watch group that has been to Tskinvali. Later Russia and HRW confirmed only 44 deaths in the Tskinvali. You may think, but 44 deaths is still too high and I agree, BUT Russia was shelling Tskinvali for two days and bombing it using heavy artillery and aviation, until Georgian troops were ordered to pull out by Georgian government.

DESTRUCTION:

As for the destruction here is the satellite image of the destruction after war:
PLEASE NOTE THAT ERGNETI AND TAMARASHENI WERE MOSTLY GEORGIAN POPULATED VILLAGES, that have been razed to the ground by Russian forces.
http://georgiandaily.com/repository/UNOSAT-%20GEO%20-%20Tskhinvali-Damage%208-19-08.pdf

Today the Russian military was destroying any left Georgian civil houses in the aria. "Russian Peacemaking" in progress.

The destruction by Russian military of civil infrastructure and national parks and forests are completely ununderstandable:
On 15 August 2008, Russian helicopters were observed flying low over the Borjomi-Tsemi forest dropping incendiary devices. In the prevailing dry conditions, forest fires rapidly spread. These images, collected by UNOSAT, show the extent of the fires, the area burnt, and the resulting smoke plume. http://georgiandaily.com/repository/Borjomi%20-%20intentionally%20set%20fires.pdf
Russia has used the cluster bombs (that are banned in the most country's of the world) that have caused death for civilians. http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/14/georgi19625.htm

This all not to mention all the destruction and death that was cause but Russian invasion in Gori, Senaki, Zugdidi, Tskinvali, Poti and many small villages in Georgia.

HISTORY:

History is a complex thing, especially anywhere close to Russia; Russia has quite big record of distortion of historical facts and propaganda that changed the understanding and views on the past.
So the basic thing we should start with is that there NEVER was "North" nor "South" Ossetia's. Only republic "Alaniya" on the territory of North Ossetia. Russia renamed the republic "Alaniya" into North Ossetia. South Ossetia(In Georgian "Shida Kartli" - "Inner Georgia") got it's ONLY border with Russia as soon as Shevardnadze constructed a "Roki" tunnel that connected Russia with (South Ossetia)Georgia.(Huge mistake!)

RUSSIAN MEDIA:

Is an complete oxymoron, no fact's ONLY propaganda that is endorsed by Kremlin.
In the Reporters without borders world index Russia scores among the lowest in the world and there are very serious reasons for that. The complete lack of free media and total control of the media by Kremlin.
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025

As the Gross media propaganda war during this invasion:
http://www.mediachannel.org/wordpress/2008/08/11/conflict-opens-front-in-the-media/

Not to mention that Russia just did not show anything about bombardments of civil targets in Georgia and many sights in Gori, Poti or Senaki were shown as Tskinvali and sign's of "Georgian aggression".
RUSSIAN ARMY AND A REASON FOR A NATIONAL PRIDE:

While most of Russians got their share of pride for "liberating peacekeepers and the population" as was given in the Russian media.
The truth is the contrary, Russian solders and Chechen mercenaries and North Caucasian bandits and criminals were looting EVERYTHING from the population with Georgian passports. (Many ethnic Ossetians and Russians with Georgian passports got robbed too)

When Russians solders occupied one of the Georgian bases they made a cell phone video in which they stated that they "live like complete bums compared to Georgian soldiers" They stole worn army boots and uniforms and even took used TOILET'S… (I saw this on TV myself… funny thought)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dCARseF7yc (That is one of my favourites)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VokvfoggJAQ&feature=related

and many many more cases… still proud? Maybe…

Russian embassy in Tbilisi was sunk in the "gifts" from Georgian people… used old toilets and other rubbish that Russians solders were stealing…
http://russia-georgia.blogspot.com/2008/08/toilet-robbers.html
MDEVEDEV POSING, SIMLING:

While Medvedev was posing and smiling, Russians soldiers were looting and killing civilians, and razing Georgian villages to the ground, inside INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNISED TERRITORY OF GEORGIA. ALL OF THE UN RESOLUTIONS HAVE CALLED FOR RESPECT OF GEORGIANT TERITORIAL INTERGIRTY.
In fact there are up to four times MORE OSSETIANS living in other parts of Georgia, other than "South Ossetia" including in Borjomi region and Kaheti region… so why noone hates them there? Why many Ossetians still live in Tbilisi?? Because that has NOTHINHG to do with them, it's all Kremlin and sick imperialistic nature of the Putins Russian regime.

I understand it is impossible to wake ordinary Russians, you look at your glorious news media of "liberation" and feel undeservedly proud.
The choice is easy it's much more comforting to be proud than ashamed. I understand that you want to believe in good and you are told that all this is done for a noble cause, sure this is a simple lie of people you gave and trusted EVERYTHING you have. Your media, civil society freedoms and all the rest of your country. You are a herd of people that are being told by the government and you have no other choice but to believe. A very dangerous path for your nations future. Georgia is a small country, only 3,5 million people… next time your risks will be significantly higher and yes the world will still keep buying your oil, but your only "real" friends will be Hugo Chávez and the president of Syria… good luck with them.



But i'm sure in the US we are kept from all the magical information you have that disproves this, so the super special forum editing section of the CIA will stop by and delete your post once you dispel all of this silly western propaganda. Did you move into East Germany or something?

[Claydon]

You know what arch, I really do not give a shit about eastern europe or central asian countries. What I do give a shit about is commerce and the stamping out of terrorism. Your ethnocentrism/misguided nationalism is laughable, the idea that you are defending the position of the country that you get 40% of your natural gas supplies from is truly ironic. You are the same tard that gets on our case because we defend the Saudis or are actually attempting to do something about the middle east (if it works out is yet to be seen). Seems to me that the US is always having to clean up the failures of Europe including Facism, Communism, and the severe hangover of Colonialism (the middle east, africa etc). Just shut the fuck up already and continue your railings against the muslims as that is probably your only redeeming quality. You have zero clue as to my background, zero clue of my families background, and zero clue about anything beyond the small realm of the literature you translate. You scream how well informed you are and educated you are and yet you the most tunneled visioned poster on GMF. I don't give a shit about Georgia, what I do give a shit about is the free flow of commerce or in this case oil. If you can't see this as a power grab by the Russians for control of that pipeline then you are one sorry ass fuck. I don't see Chinese firms going into Russian oil fields, and yet Iraq just signed a deal with the chinese. Hmmm...guess the US is not controlling the Iraqi oil as much as you and the rest of the Green Party dick heads scream about.

No blood for oil huh? Guess its ok if it is the Russians doing it in the defense of the peoples of Georgia.

[kid_vidrio]

you clearly don't care about getting pwn't either.
you are a glutton for punishment Clay, a glutton I say.
it used to bother me. now you are a source of a great amusement.
like a mouse on a wheel, or a dog chasing its own tail.
woof woof.

[Claydon]

you clearly don't care about getting pwn't either.
you are a glutton for punishment Clay, a glutton I say.
it used to bother me. now you are a source of a great amusement.
like a mouse on a wheel, or a dog chasing its own tail.
woof woof.


Yah because arch commenting about my wife who does not know or has never seen with regards to shit ball former soviet republic is so relative. yah major 'pwnage' I am crying in my beer.

carry on with your knob polishing kid vidrio

[Claydon]

Ditto^

Claydon, maybe I can't judge objectively what's going on in the US, but from a far distance it seems that your current government isn't capable to deal reasonably with consequences of hurricanes and financial market crisis, what else with international affairs in such a distant place as Caucasus area.

On the other side, I’m sure that an average American has no clue about what’s really going on in that part of the world.

Republic of South Ossetia had exactly the same right to secede apart from Georgia, as Georgia had from the former Soviet Union. A constitutional right that American states don’t have, I guess?

Look, I will agree that this current administration has leadership issues, I am a republican and I never voted for this president.

And no....US states are not allowed to secede, the last time it happened was south carolina in the 1860s and the federal government did not take too kindly to that.

[kid_vidrio]

Look, I will agree that this current administration has leadership issues, I am a republican and I never voted for this president.

Way to dodge the issue. You tried to argue out of your hat like usual, and got your ass kicked by someone with first hand knowledge.
woof woof.

And not to get sidetracked, but are you suggesting you voted for Kerry?

[Claydon]

Way to dodge the issue. You tried to argue out of your hat like usual, and got your ass kicked by someone with first hand knowledge.
woof woof.

And not to get sidetracked, but are you suggesting you voted for Kerry?

I wrote mccain for the 2000 and i abstained from voting for a president in 04, and instead just voted for local issues.

How am I dodging the issue, I have made myself quite clear. Of course we disagree so you prefer to be a knob polisher as per the usual.

yah I will bark and then shit on your lawn.

[Yelram]

I see this thread has been diluted into name calling, just like many of Arches threads that start out blasting on the US. Because, as much as him and axel like to pretend, they know ABSOLUTELY nothing about the US, (besides basketball and fucking sneakers, dont know how to handle hurricanes? When was the last time you had a hurricane in east bumblefuck europe?), and they are FAR more susceptible to propaganda concerning this issue where they are than where we are(being in what many russians would still call the motherland). But at the same time they will call us the "uninformed", and I am still waiting for the refutations from the article, being that the writer was apparently in the thick of it. Seriously, the wall has fallen Arch, you dont have a reason to stand up for the Russians. And you dont have a reason to hate the US. Oh and Claydon, I voted for Bush twice, and I still have no regrets.

[Kerjack]

If I recall Arch lived in the US for some time.

[Claydon]

President of Georgia was on Charlie Rose the other night. Charlie Rose for those who do not know is a fantastic interviewer, damn good with questioning people and is an extremely fair and highly intelligent. Give it a watch I think it is about 30 minutes long.

http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2008/9/24/1/a-conversation-with-president-of-georgia-mikhail-saakashvili

[VoxAngelikus]

I'd rather watch you having your balls sucked into a bloody mess by an octopus tentacle.

[rc113943]

thanks for contributing something positive and insightful

[Archangel]

I see this thread has been diluted into name calling, just like many of Arches threads that start out blasting on the US. Because, as much as him and axel like to pretend, they know ABSOLUTELY nothing about the US, (besides basketball and fucking sneakers, dont know how to handle hurricanes? When was the last time you had a hurricane in east bumblefuck europe?), and they are FAR more susceptible to propaganda concerning this issue where they are than where we are(being in what many russians would still call the motherland). But at the same time they will call us the "uninformed", and I am still waiting for the refutations from the article, being that the writer was apparently in the thick of it. Seriously, the wall has fallen Arch, you dont have a reason to stand up for the Russians. And you dont have a reason to hate the US. Oh and Claydon, I voted for Bush twice, and I still have no regrets.

Yelram, you no-passport-having cunt, I lived in Chicago for almost two fucking years. Obviously, I saw nothing but Niketown and the United Center there in all that time. Dumbarse.


And us? Susceptible to propaganda? THERE IS NO PROPAGANDA HERE. We don't have FOX News. If anything, we get too much unbiased information, making it harder to formulate some opinion.
Seriously, Yelram, for someone who's never been out of his bumblefuck county, let alone state, you sure talk a lot about how Europe works.

Right back at you, mother fucker.

[kid_vidrio]

I see this thread has been diluted into name calling, just like many of Arches threads that start out blasting on the US. Because, as much as him and axel like to pretend, they know ABSOLUTELY nothing about the US, (besides basketball and fucking sneakers, dont know how to handle hurricanes? When was the last time you had a hurricane in east bumblefuck europe?), and they are FAR more susceptible to propaganda concerning this issue where they are than where we are(being in what many russians would still call the motherland). But at the same time they will call us the "uninformed", and I am still waiting for the refutations from the article, being that the writer was apparently in the thick of it. Seriously, the wall has fallen Arch, you dont have a reason to stand up for the Russians. And you dont have a reason to hate the US. Oh and Claydon, I voted for Bush twice, and I still have no regrets.
oh yelram...
with this post, you perfectly underscore why their plan will work.
which of these two do you think is still in what russia would call the motherland? the one in western germany or the one in the former yugoslavia?
how's your geography and history there, sport? bad.
which makes you and the rest of the ignorant masses susceptible to propaganda. believe me you, when you're hating on ivan, you won't mind funding a shitload of ships, tanks, planes and bombs to defend an imaginary line - more than could ever be necessary to defend US against the imminent threat of a camel-based army.

it's not just america that wants a cold war. it will be lucrative for russia's elite too. which brings up a fair point. it's not 'America' meaning me and you who want a cold war. it's the MIC and their associates on the Hill.
if you want a good example of life imitating art, read 'The Penultimate Truth' by PK Dick.

[Claydon]

Philip K Dick, the man who saw jesus when he was given a barbiturate at a dentists office. (mind you I am a huge PKD fan)