2008 Election - Offseason

[Hanover Fist]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the Ethics committee or something like that kick out a sitting senator if they get a 2/3rds "super-majority" vote to do so. Were Stevens to win (unlikely now) I wonder if a Dem led Senate would do that?

You have to get a full 2/3 of the Senate to vote to expel a member of Congress.
It would be interesting to see how many Republicans would vote to expel him. Of course it would be the right thing to do, but then again Stevens is one of the most powerful members of the Senate. If you do vote to expel him and they fail to get that 2/3 vote and he is able to stay, you and your state are going to possibly be in for a world of hurt for a while legislatively speaking.
(that old saying about if you pull a gun on me you'd better kill me sort of thing)

The other angle is that if he runs, he will probably win simply because of demographics where he runs. Will Republican members of Senate vote to expel him and lower their ratio in the Senate even more?

[dadaelus]

He may win but is the party compelled to provide him with any positions in any standing committee? I do not see an upside for the Republicans in doing anything but the bare minimum in terms of dealing with Stephens.

[freegood]

I wish they would pass a law to liquidate the assets of any public official who accepts bribes or embezzles from the people.

[Morfin]

Who would, the Senate? That body is filled with corrupt or about-to-be-corrupted senators thinking, "But for the grace of God go I." They ain't doing nothing.

[Deadhead Derek]

long lines for voting, differing standards for ID, I will say, that if, as everyone is babbling about, this election is full of issues re: voting irregularities, we will need a grass roots effort to repair,and standardize the voting in our nation prior to the next election.
Thank you for your time.

[VoxAngelikus]

I'm sorry....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081028/ap_on_el_pr/mccain

Now he's guaranteeing victory.

[Yelram]

I'm sorry....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081028/ap_on_el_pr/mccain

Now he's guaranteeing victory.

Did you read that? GOD DAMN IT, why are people so fucking dumb all of the sudden.

[Mustard]

I'm sorry....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081028/ap_on_el_pr/mccain

Now he's guaranteeing victory.
Well, he has to stay positive, despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

But guaranteeing victory? Thats a bit much. I wonder, does he know something we don't???

[Insomniac]

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/diebold_accidentally_leaks

[URFloorMatt]

You have to get a full 2/3 of the Senate to vote to expel a member of Congress.
It would be interesting to see how many Republicans would vote to expel him. Of course it would be the right thing to do, but then again Stevens is one of the most powerful members of the Senate. If you do vote to expel him and they fail to get that 2/3 vote and he is able to stay, you and your state are going to possibly be in for a world of hurt for a while legislatively speaking.
(that old saying about if you pull a gun on me you'd better kill me sort of thing)

The other angle is that if he runs, he will probably win simply because of demographics where he runs. Will Republican members of Senate vote to expel him and lower their ratio in the Senate even more?

Why? Wouldn't Gov. Palin appoint herself to his seat? If she's gunning for 2012 already like so many Republicans are saying, this would be the gift she needs to cement Hillary-like frontrunner status in 2012.

I don't see how he's a threat to any sitting senator because of his "seniority." Republicans are not in power, and come Nov. 5 they will barely be relevant in the Senate. Even McCain and Palin are calling for him to drop.

Eh, Begich was up in the polls prior to his guilty verdict, so this discussion is mostly academic anyway.

[VoxAngelikus]

Did you read that? GOD DAMN IT, why are people so fucking dumb all of the sudden.


I will enjoy a Barack Obama victory so much, simply because of how aggravating it will be for all you Red-lovers.

[Claydon]

(CNN) -- You may have heard that Wednesday night Barack Obama will be on five different TV networks speaking directly to the American people.

He bought 30 minutes of airtime from the different networks, a very expensive purchase. But hey, he can afford it. Barack Obama is loaded, way more loaded than John McCain, way more loaded than any presidential candidate has ever been at this stage of the campaign.

Just to throw a number out: He has raised well over $600 million since the start of his campaign, close to what George Bush and John Kerry raised combined in 2004.

Without question, Obama has set the bar at new height with a truly staggering sum of cash. And that is why as we approach this November, it is worth reminding ourselves what Barack Obama said last November.

One year ago, he made a promise. He pledged to accept public financing and to work with the Republican nominee to ensure that they both operated within those limits.

Then it became clear to Sen. Obama and his campaign that he was going to be able to raise on his own far more cash than he would get with public financing. So Obama went back on his word.

He broke his promise and he explained it by arguing that the system is broken and that Republicans know how to work the system to their advantage. He argued he would need all that cash to fight the ruthless attacks of 527s, those independent groups like the Swift Boat Veterans. It's funny though, those attacks never really materialized.

The Washington Post pointed out recently that the bad economy has meant a cash shortage among the 527s and that this election year they have been far less influential.

The courageous among Obama's own supporters concede this decision was really made for one reason, simply because it was to Obama's financial advantage.

On this issue today, former Sen. Bob Kerrey of Nebraska, an Obama supporter, writes in The New York Post, "a hypocrite is a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue -- who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings. And that, it seems to me, is what we are doing now."

For this last week, Sen. Obama will be rolling in dough. His commercials, his get-out-the-vote effort will, as the pundits have said, dwarf the McCain campaign's final push. But in fairness, you have to admit, he is getting there in part on a broken promise.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/28/campbell.brown.obama/index.html

[kid_vidrio]

thanks for reprinting the news.
very helpful.

[Claydon]

thanks for reprinting the news.
very helpful.

its just a talking point..

[Stax]

McCain broke finance promises as well.

Why? Wouldn't Gov. Palin appoint herself to his seat? If she's gunning for 2012 already like so many Republicans are saying, this would be the gift she needs to cement Hillary-like frontrunner status in 2012.

I don't see how he's a threat to any sitting senator because of his "seniority." Republicans are not in power, and come Nov. 5 they will barely be relevant in the Senate. Even McCain and Palin are calling for him to drop.

Eh, Begich was up in the polls prior to his guilty verdict, so this discussion is mostly academic anyway.

Stevens is the candidate on the ballot, not sure exactly how you'd plan on getting him off? Hell last cycle the Republicans had to run Mark Foley as their candidate. And polls show the Dem leading, so it doesn't seem like Stevens is going to win (so he can resign and have still-governor Palin appoint a Republican replacement).

[dadaelus]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/28/campbell.brown.obama/index.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/21/AR2008022103141_pf.html

Granted this is a little out of date...
FEC Warns McCain on Campaign Spending

By Matthew Mosk and Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, February 22, 2008; A01

The nation's top federal election official told Sen. John McCain yesterday that he cannot immediately withdraw from the presidential public financing system as he had requested, a decision that threatens to dramatically restrict his spending until the general election campaign begins in the fall.

The prospect of being financially hamstrung by the very fundraising system he helped create is the latest in a series of bitter challenges for the presumed GOP nominee, who still faces a fractured conservative coalition as he assumes the mantle of party leadership.

[dadaelus]

http://www.campaignlegalcenter.org/press-3400.html

Oct 6, 2008 -- Bloomberg: McCain, Obama Avoid Spending Limits, Undermine Public Financing

Before last month's Republican National Convention, a donor could click a link on John McCain's Web site and give money to his campaign. Since then, www.johnmccain.com (http://www.johnmccain.com/) still has a link for online contributions, though the money goes to the Republican National Committee.

McCain's campaign couldn't legally accept donations after Sept. 5, when the Republican got $84 million of taxpayer money to cover general-election costs. By funneling Internet donors to the party and exploiting other legal loopholes, however, McCain continues to raise millions of dollars.

On the other side, Democrat Barack Obama is the first major- party nominee to refuse public campaign funding, with its attendant spending and fundraising limits. Together, the McCain and Obama campaigns have maneuvered around campaign-finance rules so successfully that 2008 may be the last gasp for 1970s reforms to reduce the influence of special-interest cash.

[kareyn01]

c3AvZqYC4mw

This video pretty much speaks for itself. I don't really care about the 20 seconds or so it focuses on Joe the Plumber, but the rest is required viewing.

[Hanover Fist]

I will enjoy a Barack Obama victory so much, simply because of how aggravating it will be for all you Red-lovers.

C'mon now for the sheer hilarity factor a McCain win would be 100x better considering how much more emotional all the Obama supporters are. If Obama were elected I would shrug my shoulders and simply go about my business for 4 years until the next election. If McCain were elected it would be like the greatest spectacle in the world as the media and liberals absolutely exploded in rage and disbelief. If it started an all out race war like some have predicted it would be even better.
Surely as a fan of V for Vendetta you'd could appreciate the total anarchy that a McCain election would bring.

[Desperado]

C'mon now for the sheer hilarity factor a McCain win would be 100x better considering how much more emotional all the Obama supporters are.



Exactly what mccains supporters are missing, hell half the of the right wing posters on this board say they dont even like mccain... they just hate obama.

[Hanover Fist]

Exactly what mccains supporters are missing, hell half the of the right wing posters on this board say they dont even like mccain... they just hate obama.

Lesser of two evils man, lesser of two evils. Personally I can't stand McCain one bit, but that's still a notch above Obama.

[Gary_Busey]

Even if I liked McCain more than Obama, I couldn't vote for a ticket with Sarah Palin on it.

[DjAg]

Lesser of two evils man, lesser of two evils. Personally I can't stand McCain one bit, but that's still a notch above Obama.

McCain: 0
Obama: -1

...?

[Rover]

Which is the better driving force?

Hatred or love?

I guess we'll find out in a couple of days.

[Rover]

McCain: 0
Obama: -2

...?

[URFloorMatt]

C'mon now for the sheer hilarity factor a McCain win would be 100x better considering how much more emotional all the Obama supporters are. If Obama were elected I would shrug my shoulders and simply go about my business for 4 years until the next election. If McCain were elected it would be like the greatest spectacle in the world as the media and liberals absolutely exploded in rage and disbelief. If it started an all out race war like some have predicted it would be even better.
Surely as a fan of V for Vendetta you'd could appreciate the total anarchy that a McCain election would bring.

Overly emotional Democrats? That's only been the story for like 20 years now. Republicans eating their young--that's good television, and they haven't even lost yet. Imagine what'll happen when McCain gets skewered and the Dems pick up 59 in the Senate! Kristol might bite off Krauthammer's head right there on Brit Hume's set.

Yeah, I'd buy that for a dollar.

[Grieves]

The only hope for America is indeed for Obama to become president, for the democrats to pick up even more seats in the house and senate, and for them to finally drive our corrupt to the core government to it's fucking long overdue demise.

[Stax]

Lesser of two evils man, lesser of two evils. Personally I can't stand McCain one bit, but that's still a notch above Obama.

Kerry tried that strategy. Didn't work too well.

[Hanover Fist]

It's also pretty funny how much people try and slam Palin even though Obama has to hide Biden from the press so he won't get caught saying so much stupid shit and contradicting Obama all the time.
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1854640,00.html


Hidin' Biden: Reining In a Voluble No. 2
By Karen Tumulty / CHARLESTON, W.Va. Wednesday, Oct. 29, 2008

Anyone who has watched Joe Biden over 35 years in the Senate might have a little bit of trouble recognizing the guy who is running to be Barack Obama's Vice President. Oh, yes, he looks like the same fellow. But traveling with Biden during this campaign has sometimes been like reporting on a politician packaged in shrink-wrap. While his windy, off-point pontification was the stuff of legend among his Senate colleagues, Biden is now leashed to a teleprompter even when he is talking in a high school gym that is three-quarters empty. The exposure hound who in recent years appeared more often than any other guest on the Sunday talk shows is a virtual stranger to the small band of reporters on his plane — less accessible than even Sarah Palin is to her traveling pack of bloodhounds. And Biden keeps to a schedule that provides a minimum of off-the-cuff encounters with voters, except across a rope line

The campaign's caution is understandable. With Obama leading in all the national polls, only a few things would seem to have the potential to throw him off course. One of those things is his running mate. Sticking to a script has never been one of Biden's stronger suits, as he demonstrated recently at a Seattle fund raiser. "Mark my words: it will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy," Biden told the $1,000-a-ticket Democratic donors, who no doubt were startled to discover that the Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse had ridden into the downtown Sheraton. "Remember, I said it standing here, if you don't remember anything else I said. Watch — we're going to have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy." A bemused Obama responded, "I think that Joe sometimes engages in rhetorical flourishes." In a matter of days, Biden's comments were the subject of both a John McCain television ad and the opening skit on Saturday Night Live.

To the relief of some in Obama's camp, an operation that runs on discipline, there have been fewer lampoonable episodes than many had expected when Obama tapped the man who had famously described him as "articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy." Whereas McCain's pick of a running mate was a big move aimed at jolting the race, Obama had hoped instead to bolster his foreign policy credentials, give him a second chance with white Catholics and, above all, do no harm. And though some Obama allies had qualms about Biden's tendency to run off the rails, they noted he had kept it in check during his own presidential campaign. Since being picked for VP, the Delaware Senator has performed well in what advisers say were his three biggest tests: his convention speech in Denver; his debate with Sarah Palin; and stumping for working- class voters in Pennsylvania, the crucial battleground state where Biden was born and to which he has made six trips since joining the Democratic ticket. In a recent national Pew Research Center poll, 60% of those surveyed said they had a favorable view of Biden, compared with 44% who felt that way about Palin. And that was before a civil war of anonymous quotes broke out within the McCain-Palin operation, with Palin's allies saying she is frustrated enough to "go rogue" against her handlers and McCain's calling his running mate a "diva."

Meanwhile, the no-drama Obama campaign has deployed Biden to the smallest hardscrabble corners of America's swing states, where he makes common cause by invoking his own working-class roots in Scranton, Pa. He speaks of his father, who told Biden to always get up when he got knocked down. He says he wishes his mother could be there to say, "God bless ya." Biden even invokes his 10-year-old granddaughter Finnegan, whose favorite expression — "Hellooo?" — sums up Biden's reaction to the efforts of his "old dear friend" McCain to distance himself from George W. Bush. (See where Joe Biden stands on the issues.)

The crowds that Biden draws are smaller and older than the throngs at Obama's megarallies. A disproportionate number wear windbreakers and sweatshirts that identify them as members of unions representing mine workers, firefighters and painters. Flashing his 250-watt set of teeth, Biden rarely fails to bring them to their feet with a stump speech that goes from thunder ("I've had enough! Our country has had enough!") to whispered intimacy ("Ladies and gentlemen, it's about dignity") and back again ("I love ya! Get up, Virginia! Get up!").

As risky as it can be to let Biden step away from the teleprompter, it is in these moments that he can be most affecting. When he made a rare unscheduled stop at an ice cream parlor in Charleston, W.Va., Biden encountered the owner's daughter, a 28-year-old woman who told him she had suffered a brain aneurysm last December similar to the one that nearly killed Biden in 1988. The Senator threw an arm around Sara Beal's neck, pulled her to him and whispered in her ear. By the time he let her go about five minutes later, planting a kiss on top of her head, both of them were near tears.

At that same stop, a reporter shouted a question about McCain's new ad featuring Biden's comments in Seattle and got no answer beyond stony silence. In the two days that I was aboard his Boeing 737 campaign plane, Biden ventured only a few steps outside his cabin at the front of the plane, which kept him safely away from the reporters at the back. When Biden suddenly appeared at the door to the main cabin, Dallas Morning News reporter Todd Gillman attempted to take a snapshot — a not-uncommon occurrence aboard a campaign plane — and was told by a campaign staffer, "We prefer that you not take photos." According to a blog post by Ryan Corsaro, the CBS News embed on the Biden plane, the candidate has not taken questions from the journalists aboard his plane since Sept. 7, but he has done numerous interviews with local reporters. That is typically safer terrain, though in one contentious television interview on Oct. 23, an Orlando anchorwoman asked him whether Obama is a Marxist. For once, even Biden — who did the interview from North Carolina — seemed dumbfounded. "Are you joking?" he asked.

So what kind of Vice President would Biden be? His relationship with Obama is still in its formative phase, but history may hold some clues. It has been 48 years since a sitting Senator has been elected President, but in that time, five went directly from the Senate to the vice presidency. Some of them — Walter Mondale comes to mind — served as all-purpose advisers and troubleshooters for the President. Others chose specific portfolios — as Al Gore did in taking charge of areas like the environment, technology and reorganizing the operation of the Executive Branch.

Biden has a breadth of expertise that comes from having served as chairman of the Judiciary and the Foreign Relations committees in the Senate, two substance-heavy posts. But his ability to maneuver in either of those areas as Veep might quickly run him afoul of both the Attorney General and the Secretary of State. Biden will want a big say in helping decide who in an Obama Administration would get those two posts, if only because he will know how to get Obama's choices confirmed in the Senate better than anyone else. But those close to Biden say the model he would follow would more likely be that of Mondale. As one put it, "Joe Biden is the ultimate got-your-back kind of guy, and whatever that ends up meaning, that is what he'll do for Obama."

It would have been nice to ask that question of Biden himself, but a campaign spokesman told me the Senator was suffering from a cold that made it a strain to give interviews. (I didn't glean evidence of any symptoms during the four speeches that I watched him give over two days.) The spokesman also said Biden would consider it "presumptuous" to talk about how he would perform the job for which he is running. Or maybe it simply wasn't in the script.

[taters]

Long article. I dont have time to read it, but its nice and long. I have much in common with it.

[Hanover Fist]

Long article. I dont have time to read it, but its nice and long. I have much in common with it.

Cliff notes version:

Because Biden has a tendency to actually say what he thinks and tell the people what Obama will actually do as President. He is an embarrassment to Obama and Obama is afraid that that sort of speaking will cause the Democrats to continue their trend of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. He has therefore put a lid on Biden and severely limited his access to the media and what he is allowed to say.

[heelsguy]

biden's freudian slip recently when he mentioned $150K as the threshold for the "95% of americans who will see lower taxes"--instead of the supposedly $250K the Obama campaign has stated--proves he is in some ways more ridiculous than Palin. At least she can say she is new at being in the public spotlight.

[Desperado]

Man this dude is supposed to be helping his campaign....


Shays takes swipe at McCain (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/29/shays-takes-swipe-at-mccain/)
Posted: 06:59 PM ET

From CNN Ticker Producer Alexander Mooney (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/tag/cnn-ticker-producer-alexander-mooney/)
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/10/29/art.shays.gi.jpg Shays is the lone House Republican in New England.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif

(CNN) – New England's lone House Republican appears to have publicly broken with his party's standard-bearer, saying John McCain has not run a clean campaign and is likely to lose his bid for the presidency.
"I just don't see how [McCain] can win," Connecticut Rep. Chris Shays told the Yale Daily News earlier this week. "He has lost his brand as a maverick; he did not live up to his pledge to fight a clean campaign." Shays, who in 2006 became the only Republican congressman from New England, perennially finds himself in a heated re-election race.
The comments are the latest in a string of Republicans who have publicly criticized the Arizona senator's handling of the presidential race and predicted his defeat next week is all but certain. (Other Republicans joining the chorus include Former Maryland Sen. Charles Mathias, former Massachusetts Gov. Bill Weld, and former Secretary of State Colin Powell.)
Fellow Arizona Sen. Jon Kyl and former GOP presidential Candidate Mitt Romney also have reportedly said they think McCain is likely to lose. Jon Kyl denied making the comments, though the Arizona Daily Star later produced audio indicating he did.
In his Yaale Daily News interview, Shays did not endorse Barack Obama, and said he remained skeptical the Illinois senator will govern from the center if he is elected president.
“It’s what all presidents should do, but [Obama] has never been there,” he said of Obama's ideological orientation.
Shays is a co-chairman of McCain's campaign efforts in Connecticut

[Stax]

CT is breaking 20+ points for Obama and Shays is already in a basically 50-50 race. Not surprising he's trying as hard as he can to be seen as independent and not tied to McCain.

[Hanover Fist]

biden's freudian slip recently when he mentioned $150K as the threshold for the "95% of americans who will see lower taxes"--instead of the supposedly $250K the Obama campaign has stated--proves he is in some ways more ridiculous than Palin. At least she can say she is new at being in the public spotlight.


Funny cover of the NY Post talking about that
http://i34.tinypic.com/m8k7dl.jpg
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10292008/news/politics/biden_blows_fuzzy_tax_math_135787.htm

BIDEN BLOWS FUZZY TAX MATH
UNDERCUTS O ON $$ BENEFIT

By CARL CAMPANILE in Hershey, Pa., and BRENDAN SCOTT in NY

Gaffe-prone Joe Biden put his foot in his mouth again yesterday, mistakenly excluding millions of Americans from his running mate's tax-cut proposal.

The Delaware senator's latest blunder came while discussing Republican tax policies during a television interview in his hometown of Scranton, Pa.

"What we're saying is, that $87 billion tax break doesn't need to go to people making an average of $1.4 million," Biden said.

"It should go to middle-class people, people who make $150,000 a year."

Actually, Barack Obama has promised to cut taxes on households earning less than $200,000 a year while raising taxes on those who make more than $250,000 annually.

John McCain quickly cashed in on the slip.

During a rally in Hershey, Pa., McCain told supporters the gaffe revealed the Democrats' true tax-and-spend intentions.

"It's interesting how their definition of 'rich' has a way of creeping down," McCain said.

"Senator Obama has made a lot of promises. First, he said people making less than $250,000 would benefit from his plan.

"Then, this weekend, he announced in an ad that if you're a family making less than $200,000 you'll benefit - but yesterday right here in Pennsylvania, Senator Biden said tax relief should only go to 'middle-class people' - people making under $150,000 a year.

"At this rate, it won't be long before Senator Obama is right back to his vote that Americans making just $42,000 a year should get a tax increase.

"We can't let that happen," McCain added.

The Republican nominee has pounded Obama on taxes recently as economic woes have come to dominate the political debate.

Biden's tax faux pas provided a new distraction for Obama as he tried to focus on broad, uplifting themes, like "change" and "hope," in the final week of swing-state stumping.

Obama campaign spokesman Tommy Vietor issued a statement that corrected the vice-presidential candidate without explicitly saying so.

"No family making less than $250,000 will see their tax increases one cent," Vietor said. "And if your family makes less than $200,000 - as 95 percent of workers and their families do - you'll get a tax cut."

Vietor went on to call McCain's attack on Biden "desperate."

"Maybe the McCain campaign keeps lying about Obama's tax plan because with seven days left in this election, voters are rejecting McCain's plan to give billions more in tax giveaways to big corporations and the wealthiest Americans," he said.

Also during the stop in Hershey, McCain took a moment to shrug off reports of discord between his campaign staff and his running mate, Sarah Palin.

"By the way, when two mavericks join up, we don't agree on everything," McCain said. "But that's a lot of fun! It's wonderful to fool the pundits." With Post Wire Services

[Stax]

-Slip of the tongue saying the wrong number on a well-known, well-explained, well-put-out-there policy
-Inability to answer a question like "Which newspapers did you read before being selected for the VP slot?" or "Why does being near Russia improve your foreign policy credentials?"

Which is worse?

[Morfin]

C'mon now for the sheer hilarity factor a McCain win would be 100x better considering how much more emotional all the Obama supporters are.

That is what we saw in 2000. (And are still hearing about as the Democrats continue to insist that Gore really won Florida and the Supreme Court stole the election, despite the proof to the contrary.)

[Stax]

That is what we saw in 2000. (And are still hearing about as the Democrats continue to insist that Gore really won Florida and the Supreme Court stole the election, despite the proof to the contrary.)

Those people are dumb. Bush won by somewhere around 500 votes and the only incorrect thing the Court did was issuing an injunction as it heard arguments stopping counts. Had Gore won there wouldn't be time to finish the counts (so Bush effectively wins) or Bush wins, so the injunction basically finished Gore before the ruling.

[taters]

Cliff notes version:

Because Biden has a tendency to actually say what he thinks and tell the people what Obama will actually do as President. He is an embarrassment to Obama and Obama is afraid that that sort of speaking will cause the Democrats to continue their trend of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. He has therefore put a lid on Biden and severely limited his access to the media and what he is allowed to say.

Next time just do that.

Honestly, both candidates are suffering most (in their different and irrespectable ways) from their running mates.

Biden puts his foot in his mouth a lot. Palin puts her foot in others mouths (big city people, minorities, women, educated people, poor people, gay people).

McCain would probably have won if he didnt pick that dumbshit. If he would have picked Pawlenty, he would be doing better. If he would have picked Paul, or even Romney, all the big city independents would not be alienated.

[URFloorMatt]

biden's freudian slip recently when he mentioned $150K as the threshold for the "95% of americans who will see lower taxes"--instead of the supposedly $250K the Obama campaign has stated--proves he is in some ways more ridiculous than Palin.

Not really. Under Obama's tax plan, people who make less than $250,000 will not see a tax increase. Not everyone under $250,000, however, will see a tax cut. Biden said people making less than $150,000 deserve a tax cut. That's what they're getting. That's what the plan has always been.

People between $150,000 and $250,000 will see basically nothing. I believe the tax cut for someone making between $150,000 and $200,000 is like $30.

[nuclearjew]

This Obama infomercial sounds like a Ken Burns documentary.

[Grieves]

This Obama infomercial sounds like a Ken Burns documentary.The Mark Twain doc by Burns is fucking great.

[heelsguy]

This Obama infomercial sounds like a Ken Burns documentary.

they same the same guy who did Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth", did Obama's tonite

[heelsguy]

Just my gut feeling, but I think anyone undecided at this point will lean towards mccain. in other words, they were leaning mccain, but wanted to rubberneck to obama because he is so darned charismatic. but upon further review, they will play it safe and go with the war hero who has paid his dues. they will rationalize " I will have an opportunity in 2012 to vote for obama. (Because they know mccain will not be a 2 term prez.)

but if mccain wins I want every democrat to finally learn how to lose with dignity and not blame someone else. I mean, even with ACORN on their side they would have lost. think about it.

[Soup Nazi]

This is American Politics buddy, NO ONE loses with dignity.

[vasili denisov]

but if mccain wins I want every democrat to finally learn how to lose with dignity and not blame someone else. I mean, even with ACORN on their side they would have lost. think about it.
You must be eating your spinach-y, because you're full of iron-y.

In other news...

What In The Heck's A Barack Obama?

Just the other day, I was watching the TV, and I'll be damned if everyone didn't start talking 'bout this new thing called a "Barack Obama." Seems to be the hottest trend right now, and you can't go nowhere without hearin' some mention of it. Barack Obama this, Barack Obama that. Well, that's all well and good, but I still got one question: What in the heck is it?

"Barack Obama." Boy, now if that ain't the craziest thing I ever heard of. Sounds like one of them exercise machines you gotta order off TV. Or maybe it's some sort of reality show, or one of them fancy new diets for ladies. "Barack Obama." Huh. Musta come over from Japan or Tokyo or somewhere's around there.


http://www.theonion.com/content/opinion/what_in_the_hecks_a_barack


You know there’s a Black guy running, Barack Obama and then there’s Hillary Clinton.
His name is Barack?!

Barack Obama, yeah.
Barack?!

Barack.
What the fuck is a Barack?! Barack Obama. Where he from, Africa?

Yeah, his dad is from Kenya.
Barack Obama?

Yeah.
What the fuck?! That ain’t no fuckin’ name, yo. That ain’t that n*gga’s name. You can’t be serious. Barack Obama. Get the fuck outta here.

You’re telling me you haven’t heard about him before.
I ain’t really paying much attention.

I mean, it’s pretty big if a Black…
Wow, Barack! The n*gga’s name is Barack. Barack? n*gga named Barack Obama. What the fuck, man?! Is he serious? That ain’t his fuckin’ name. Ima tell this n*gga when I see him, “Stop that bullshit. Stop that bullshit” [laughs] “That ain’t your fuckin’ name.” Your momma ain’t name you no damn Barack.

So you’re not following the race. You can’t vote right?
Nope.

http://www.xxlmag.com/online/?p=20332

[taters]

but if mccain wins I want every democrat to finally learn how to lose with dignity and not blame someone else. I mean, even with ACORN on their side they would have lost. think about it.

:cough cough:

DIEBOLD

:Cough cough:

BUSH V GORE

:Cough Cough:

"Voter registration fraud DOES NOT EQUATE TO VOTER FRAUD!"

Seriously, I cant believe people are harping on about this? VRF DOES NOT LEAD TO FAKE VOTES, BECAUSE FAKE NAMES OF FAKE PEOPLE DO NOT EXIST TO VOTE.

I guess if you hammer a falsity enough (fox/McCain/CNN), eventually enough stupid people will catch on to it and convince other not as stupid people its true by shear volume. The emperors new clothes for adults.

So you’re not following the race. You can’t vote right?
Nope.

Question answered. At least some stupid people cant vote.

[heelsguy]

BUSH V GORE

"Voter registration fraud DOES NOT EQUATE TO VOTER FRAUD!"

Seriously, I cant believe people are harping on about this? VRF DOES NOT LEAD TO FAKE VOTES, BECAUSE FAKE NAMES OF FAKE PEOPLE DO NOT EXIST TO VOTE.
I guess if you hammer a falsity enough (fox/McCain/CNN), eventually enough stupid people will catch on to it and convince other not as stupid people its true by shear volume. The emperors new clothes for adults.
Question answered. At least some stupid people cant vote.

I believe Bush v. Gore was when you and I first skirmished 3 years ago. And I won when I mentioned if Gore had simply WON HIS OWN FUCKING STATE OF TENNESSEE, he would have been president...without Florida.


anyhoo, step one is register a fake voter. step 2 if bus in from NYC fake people to rent a house in ohio for 1 month just to vote there. ( I do not have a link to the actual story yet)

I just hate whiners, and no one whines more than dems

[kid_vidrio]

I believe Bush v. Gore was when you and I first skirmished 3 years ago. And I won when I mentioned if Gore had simply WON HIS OWN FUCKING STATE OF TENNESSEE, he would have been president...without Florida.


anyhoo, step one is register a fake voter. step 2 if bus in from NYC fake people to rent a house in ohio for 1 month just to vote there. ( I do not have a link to the actual story yet)

I just hate whiners, and no one whines more than dems
I hate whiners too, and I hardly think it is limited to one party or the other.
Suggesting such is just whiny spin.
Whining, like stupidity, knows know economic or geographic limits or barriers. Nor, apparently does the human desire to create an ism schism.
I witnessed an awful lot of R whining for eight years of Clinton. But I suppose that was all justified because he got a blow job and then denied it.

[heelsguy]

I hate whiners too, and I hardly think it is limited to one party or the other.
Suggesting such is just whiny spin.
Whining, like stupidity, knows know economic or geographic limits or barriers. Nor, apparently does the human desire to create an ism schism.
I witnessed an awful lot of R whining for eight years of Clinton. But I suppose that was all justified because he got a blow job and then denied it.

I agree about the whining...it knows no party lines. But i have a feeling if McCain wins there will be a knee-jerk among blacks and dems that it HAD to be stolen..no other possible explanation. no large voting segment that at the last possible second pulls the lever for age/experience over youth/ideas/charisma. I mean if there was no such thing as polling we all would just wait for the results and go with it. but we all figure the polls are air-tight and if the result is different "well someone cheated!"

[kid_vidrio]

It would be a stunning upset, and given how many people were mobilized and are participating for the first time, their certainty of winning would, as you suggest, probably turn into the exact opposite of the silly glee they will experience if BO wins.

Han mentioned something about it a couple days ago, and I got to admit, the surreality of it all would almost, almost, make it worthwhile.

[Smokestack]

Francis Fukuyama endorses Obama (http://www.amconmag.com/article/2008/nov/03/00020//). At least Hannity could never quit McCain...

Francis Fukuyama

I’m voting for Barack Obama this November for a very simple reason. It is hard to imagine a more disastrous presidency than that of George W. Bush. It was bad enough that he launched an unnecessary war and undermined the standing of the United States throughout the world in his first term. But in the waning days of his administration, he is presiding over a collapse of the American financial system and broader economy that will have consequences for years to come. As a general rule, democracies don’t work well if voters do not hold political parties accountable for failure. While John McCain is trying desperately to pretend that he never had anything to do with the Republican Party, I think it would a travesty to reward the Republicans for failure on such a grand scale.
McCain’s appeal was always that he could think for himself, but as the campaign has progressed, he has seemed simply erratic and hotheaded. His choice of Sarah Palin as a running mate was highly irresponsible; we have suffered under the current president who entered office without much knowledge of the world and was easily captured by the wrong advisers. McCain’s lurching from Reaganite free- marketer to populist tribune makes one wonder whether he has any underlying principles at all.
America has been living in a dream world for the past few years, losing its basic values of thrift and prudence and living far beyond its means, even as it has lectured the rest of the world to follow its model. At a time when the U.S. government has just nationalized a good part of the banking sector, we need to rethink a lot of the Reaganite verities of the past generation regarding taxes and regulation. Important as they were back in the 1980s and ’90s, they just won’t cut it for the period we are now entering. Obama is much better positioned to reinvent the American model and will certainly present a very different and more positive face of America to the rest of the world.

[Archangel]

If some redneck doesn't get to him first, that is.

[Desperado]

More on that...


McCain camp trying to scapegoat Palin

John McCain's campaign is looking for a scapegoat. It is looking for someone to blame if McCain loses on Tuesday.
And it has decided on Sarah Palin.
In recent days, a McCain “adviser” told Dana Bash of CNN: “She is a diva. She takes no advice from anyone.”
Imagine not taking advice from the geniuses at the McCain campaign. What could Palin be thinking?
Also, a “top McCain adviser” told Mike Allen of Politico that Palin is “a whack job.”
Maybe she is. But who chose to put this “whack job” on the ticket? Wasn’t it John McCain? And wasn’t it his first presidential-level decision?
And if you are a 72-year-old presidential candidate, wouldn’t you expect that your running mate’s fitness for high office would come under a little extra scrutiny? And, therefore, wouldn’t you make your selection with care? (To say nothing about caring about the future of the nation?)
McCain didn’t seem to care that much. McCain admitted recently on national TV that he “didn’t know her well at all” before he chose Palin.
But why not? Why didn’t he get to know her better before he made his choice?
It’s not like he was rushed. McCain wrapped up the Republican nomination in early March. He didn’t announce his choice for a running mate until late August.
Wasn’t that enough time for McCain to get to know Palin? Wasn’t that enough time for his crackerjack “vetters” to investigate Palin’s strengths and weaknesses, check through records and published accounts, talk to a few people, and learn that she was not only a diva but a whack job diva?
But McCain picked her anyway. He wanted to close the “enthusiasm gap” between himself and Barack Obama. He wanted to inject a little adrenaline into the Republican National Convention. He wanted to goose up the Republican base.
And so he chose Palin. Is she really a diva and a whack job? Could be. There are quite a few in politics. (And a few in journalism, too, though in journalism they are called “columnists.”)
As proof that she is, McCain aides now say Palin is “going rogue” and straying from their script. Wow. What a condemnation. McCain sticks to the script. How well is he doing?
In truth, Palin’s real problem is not her personality or whether she takes orders well. Her real problem is that neither she nor McCain can make a credible case that Palin is ready to assume the presidency should she need to.
And that undercuts McCain’s entire campaign.
This was the deal McCain made with the devil. In exchange for energizing his base by picking Palin, he surrendered his chief selling point: that he was better prepared to run the nation in time of crisis, whether it be economic, an attack by terrorists or, as he has been talking about in recent days, fending off a nuclear war.

“The next president won’t have time to get used to the office,” McCain told a crowd in Miami on Wednesday. “I’ve been tested, my friends, I’ve been tested.”
But has Sarah Palin?
I don’t believe running mates win or lose elections, though some believe they can be a drag on the ticket. Lee Atwater, who was George H.W. Bush’s campaign manager in 1988, told me that Dan Quayle cost the ticket 2 to 3 percentage points. But Bush won the election by 7.8 percentage points.
So, in Atwater’s opinion, Bush survived his bad choice by winning the election on his own.
McCain could do the same thing. But his campaign’s bad decisions have not stopped with Sarah Palin. It has made a series of questionable calls, including making Joe the Plumber the embodiment of the campaign.
Are voters really expected to warmly embrace an (unlicensed) plumber who owes back taxes and complains about the possibility of making a quarter million dollars a year?
And did McCain’s aides really believe so little in John McCain’s own likability that they thought Joe the Plumber would be more likable?
Apparently so. Which is sad.
We in the press make too much of running mates and staff and talking points and all the rest of the hubbub that accompanies a campaign.
In the end, it comes down to two candidates slugging it out.
Either McCain pulls off a victory in the last round or he doesn’t. And if he doesn’t, he has nobody to blame but himself.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081030/pl_politico/15073;_ylt=Ao85hZEm5KDO4fX1L8dacOIiANEA

[Smokestack]

Alternate reality time. The battleground map according to Bill O'Reilly:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/images/2008/10/29/oreillymap_2.jpg (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/10/29/oreillymap_2.jpg)

and the latest polls, courtesy of fivethirtyeight.com:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3024/2986041214_64428c85c4_o.png

[nuclearjew]

Is that map saying Oregon is a battleground state? lulz

[Limp]

Mason-Dixon has McCain winning? NO WAI!

[Smokestack]

Is that map saying Oregon is a battleground state? lulz

Not to mention all of the upper Midwest, New Hampshire, Colorado, Pennsylvania and Virginia, which all have Obama polling with a double digit lead. However, Arizona, Indiana, North Carolina and other states in which McCain holds a single digit lead, if a lead at all, are colored red. O'Reilly's a pinhead...no, a crackhead.

Mason-Dixon has McCain winning? NO WAI!

Well, in Utah. He'll probably take that.

[heelsguy]

More on that...



http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081030/pl_politico/15073;_ylt=Ao85hZEm5KDO4fX1L8dacOIiANEA

don;t know about anyone else on these boards, but from what I have seen of Palin, I would put my money on HER instincts. some people are just born winners. she's the real deal. she has "it" ( and no, I do not mean a cunt, although I bet it is glorious)

[Desperado]

don;t know about anyone else on these boards, but from what I have seen of Palin, I would put my money on HER instincts. some people are just born winners. she's the real deal. she has "it" ( and no, I do not mean a cunt, although I bet it is glorious)

Ya well, maybe you and 1-3 other people on this board. When I see her, I see a fucking idiot. Howerver she is ambitious, but so are all the chicks that live in the playboy mansion.

[Archangel]

don;t know about anyone else on these boards, but from what I have seen of Palin, I would put my money on HER instincts. some people are just born winners. she's the real deal. she has "it" ( and no, I do not mean a cunt, although I bet it is glorious)

Born winner? At what? Yahtzee? Definitely not Trivial Pursuit, that's certain.

Because honestly, you cannot fucking govern the world's most powerful nation on "instincts", just as you cannot perform brain surgery on "pure talent". You have to fucking KNOW YOUR SHIT. We've had eight years of an imbecile who has trouble figuring out what the capital of Italy is, and governed on "gut instincts" and the advice of bastards.

Goddamnit, when the fuck are people gonna realise that this is not a job for "one of them"?

[heelsguy]

Born winner? At what? Yahtzee? Definitely not Trivial Pursuit, that's certain.

Because honestly, you cannot fucking govern the world's most powerful nation on "instincts", just as you cannot perform brain surgery on "pure talent". You have to fucking KNOW YOUR SHIT. We've had eight years of an imbecile who has trouble figuring out what the capital of Italy is, and governed on "gut instincts" and the advice of bastards.

Goddamnit, when the fuck are people gonna realise that this is not a job for "one of them"?


I did not say she was a Rhodes Scholar. I just said she had "it" as in political skills and the ability to communicate and reach her audience. I never said I was happy she was picked. If McCain had picked Romney I would have done cartwheels. And Bush graduated from Yale and has an MBA from Harvard. So he's not a fucking idiot. Just a bad president.

EDIT: also, when kerry finally released his grades, his GPA was nearly identical to Bush's while at the same school, Yale

[smahoo]

I'll borrow a line from Alec Baldwin's recent Letterman appearance...

Isn't there a different thread to discuss "Bible Spice" ?

[Archangel]

I did not say she was a Rhodes Scholar. I just said she had "it" as in political skills and the ability to communicate and reach her audience. I never said I was happy she was picked. If McCain had picked Romney I would have done cartwheels. And Bush graduated from Yale and has an MBA from Harvard. So he's not a fucking idiot. Just a bad president

There are full professors who are fucking idiots, let alone some silver spoon rich kid who got some degrees riding the coat-tails of his daddy.

And as far as having "it" goes, the best ever at that was Adolf Hitler.

[Morfin]

I did not say she was a Rhodes Scholar. I just said she had "it" as in political skills and the ability to communicate and reach her audience. I never said I was happy she was picked. If McCain had picked Romney I would have done cartwheels. And Bush graduated from Yale and has an MBA from Harvard. So he's not a fucking idiot. Just a bad president

I'm with ya, to a point. There is no question that there are "born" political winners. However, the one that most comes to mind is Bill Clinton. He had the brains and could grasp the wonkish issues, as well as charm the pants off any voter or woman. Palin has the charm, but she ain't got the brains to make her a national winner -- at least not based on what I've seen so far.

The closest thing I can equate to her is Dan Quayle, an empty vessel if there ever was one. Despite his apparent lack of brain, he never showed the ability to grasp policy and foreign affairs to make him a serious political figure to complement his good looks and nice smile. The question is whether Palin can rise above this, or whether she is going to end up like Dan Quayle -- a joke and an historical footnote.

Edit: Sorry, Arch.

[Archangel]

Despite his lack of apparent brains, he never showed the gravitas or intelligence

That sentence makes no sense.

"Despite his lack of a cock, he never showed any sexual prowess or skill"...

[Smokestack]

I did not say she was a Rhodes Scholar. I just said she had "it" as in political skills and the ability to communicate and reach her audience. I never said I was happy she was picked. If McCain had picked Romney I would have done cartwheels. And Bush graduated from Yale and has an MBA from Harvard. So he's not a fucking idiot. Just a bad president.

EDIT: also, when kerry finally released his grades, he about the same GPA bush did while at the same school, Yale

I hear what you're saying and I agree that she has that "it" factor for her particular audience. The problem for her is that the Republican party is shrinking and it's going to be harder for a national candidate to play to the far right base. As David Brooks puts it, "And there was Sarah Palin, who represents the old resentments and the narrow appeal of conventional Republicanism."

If she runs again in 2012, she will have to figure out how to excite more than just the "kill him" and "socialist" screaming far right mobs. She does a great job of that, but the US is getting for urban. The small town shtick appeals to an increasingly smaller voter base.

[Archangel]

Thank God.

[Desperado]

Thank God.

Amen!

[Desperado]

Tax calculator anyone?

http://taxcut.barackobama.com/


Fact Check: Does Obama's 'tax calculator' show what an individual's tax cut would be? (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/30/fact-check-does-obamas-tax-calculator-show-what-an-individuals-tax-cut-would-be/)
Posted: 08:52 AM ET
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/10/30/obama7.jpg Does Obama's 'tax calculator' show what an individual's tax cut would be?

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif

The Statement: On its Web site and in a television commercial, the campaign of Democratic presidential nominee Sen. Barack Obama is featuring a "tax calculator" that the campaign says voters can use to see how much their tax cut would be under Obama's plan.
Get the facts!

The Facts: Obama's tax calculator asks users to input information, ranging from an approximate income range to mortgage balance and number of dependents. If the user qualifies for a tax cut under Obama's plan, the calculator produces a specific dollar estimate for "tax savings" and compares that with any estimated tax change for that user under McCain's plan.
For incomes over $250,000, where there would be a possible increase under Obama's plan, the calculator does not provide dollar estimates and tells the user, "You will probably not get a tax cut under the Obama-Biden plan."
McCain supporters and conservative groups such as Americans for Tax Reform criticize the Obama calculator, saying it fails to spell out how tax hikes in Obama's plan would affect a given individual and excludes corporate taxes in its calculations.
In a question-and-answer section, the Obama Web site says it "calculates only how individuals' income taxes change" and does not deal with proposed changes in corporate tax rates by either Obama or McCain.
Robertson Williams, principal research associate for the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, said that, while his group has not checked all of the calculator's results and was not involved in creating it, the numbers it produces for individual tax cuts "look reasonable" given that they are for income estimates — not specific amounts — and that not all tax factors are included.
"It generally appears to give accurate estimates of the tax savings under Obama's tax proposals — for those who get tax cuts," Williams said, adding that the calculator avoids pointing out possible tax increases or giving estimated amounts of increases. "That clearly focuses attention on the tax cuts rather than the tax increases. But it does not appear to give incorrect results, given very basic assumptions about other factors influencing tax bills," Williams said.
The Verdict: True, but incomplete. While the Obama tax calculator gives what a nonpartisan authority describes as generally accurate estimates for taxpayers who would qualify for tax cuts under Obama, it does not calculate possible increases for some taxpayers or the effects of corporate tax changes.

[Desperado]

Joe the plumber come on down!!!! Uh Joe??? Is this mic on?


Joe the no show (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/30/joe-the-plumber-missing-at-mccain-event/)
Posted: 01:11 PM ET

From CNN Ticker Producer Alexander Mooney (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/tag/cnn-ticker-producer-alexander-mooney/)
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/10/30/art.wurzelbacher.ap.jpg Joe Wurzelbacher did show up to a Palin event Wednesday.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif

(CNN) — Joe Wurzelbacher, aka Joe the Plumber, has become an integral part of John McCain's presidential bid, but it appears the Arizona senator's campaign and the now-famous Toledo plumber need to work on their communication skills.
McCain aides told CNN's Dana Bash Wurzelbacher would appear with the Republican presidential candidate at his first campaign event in Defiance, Ohio. But in what was a slightly awkward moment for McCain, Wurzelbacher was nowhere to be seen when the Arizona senator called out for him.
A campaign aide later said Wurzelbacher had "decided not to come" and may join McCain later in the day.
But reached at his home by CNN's Mary Snow, Wurzelbacher said it was "news to him" that he was supposed to be at the McCain rally. Wurzelbacher said nobody from the McCain campaign confirmed he was attending the event and called the incident a "miscommunication."
Wurzelbacher also said he is headed to Philadelphia for a charity event unrelated to the campaign and has no plans to meet up with McCain today.

[Soup Nazi]

It still stuns me that they have made this guy a focus of their campaign. The guy lied entirely about his own situation. But I guess that doesn't matter? I still cannot beleive that they didn't actually at some event, or through sources, find a REAL person who would be hurt by Obama's small business tax policy. It's not like this guy is a once in a lifetime irreplaceable gem perfectly symbolizing the "Every Day Man".....

[Pharon]

The guy lied entirely about his own situation.
What did he lie about?

[Gary_Busey]

I like all the clips where he says he'd actually come out better under Obama's tax plan.

[Desperado]

What did he lie about?

Info that he ended up "clarifying"...


Fact check: Has the Obama campaign launched 'political attacks' against 'Joe the Plumber?' (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/20/fact-check-has-the-obama-campaign-launched-political-attacks/)
Posted: 05:45 PM ET
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/10/23/art.bojoeplay1023.cnn.jpg (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/10/21/am.obama.attacking.joe.cnn?iref=videosearch) Is Sen. Obama attacking Joe the plumber? Watch and get the facts!


http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif

The Statement: Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain, speaking at a rally in St. Charles, Missouri, on Monday, October 20, said "Joe the Plumber," an Ohioan who has become a central figure on the campaign trail, "didn't ask for the political attacks on him from the Obama campaign."
Get the facts!

The Facts: Sen. Barack Obama and Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, a plumber, discussed taxes on small businesses during a campaign stop on October 12 outside Toledo, Ohio. Wurzelbacher said he was about to buy a company that makes more than $250,000 a year and was concerned that Obama would tax him more because of it.
McCain — who seized on the exchange at last week's presidential debate in Hempstead, New York — dubbed the man "Joe the Plumber" and characterized him as a symbol of an everyman entrepreneur who would be burdened by Obama's tax plan. Since then, Wurzelbacher's life has been under a media microscope, and news outlets reported details including the fact that Wurzelbacher didn't have a plumbing license.
McCain spokesman Brian Rogers gave CNN three examples of "political attacks" the campaign says the Obama camp has made on Wurzelbacher — each from October 16:
–Obama said on MSNBC's "Race For the White House," that McCain is "trying to suggest that a plumber is the guy he is fighting for. How many plumbers do you know making $250,000 a year?"
–Sen. Joe Biden said on "The Tonight Show" that "I don't know many plumbers who are making $250,000 a year and worried about it. We're kind of worried about Joe the fireman, Joe the policeman, Joe the real plumber with a license."
– Speaking on the "Today" show, Biden also said said, "I don't have any 'Joe the Plumbers' in my neighborhood that make $250,000 a year and are worried."
In an interview with CNN on October 16, Wurzelbacher clarified that the company he wants to buy makes well less than $250,000 a year — which Obama says means his taxes would not be increased. Families making more than $250,000 could see taxes go up under Obama's plan, according to the campaign, while those making less than that amount would not see any raise.
The Verdict: In Dispute. McCain regards these comments as political attacks on Joe Wurzelbacher, but the comments also can be interpreted as Obama campaign commentary on the McCain campaign's rhetoric.

[Pharon]

I don't see any "facts" in that article. Just speculation.

[Desperado]

I don't see any "facts" in that article. Just speculation.


I think Joe the Plumber had originally said he would make more then enough to be taxed...

McCain said “Joe the plumber” faced “much higher taxes” under Obama’s tax plan and would pay a fine under Obama’s health care plan if he failed to provide coverage for his workers. But Ohio plumber Joe Wurzelbacher would pay higher taxes only if the business he says he wants to buy puts his income over $200,000 a year, and his small business would be exempt from Obama’s requirement to provide coverage for workers.

Update Oct. 16: ABC News reported the morning after the debate that Wurzelbacher admitted to a reporter that he won't actually make enough from his new plumbing business to pay Obama's higher tax rates. ABC said his admission "would seem to indicate that he would be eligible for an Obama tax cut."

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_3.html

[halfabubbleoff]

Didn't I hear recently that Wurzelbacher has been stumping for McCain lately?

The reports I have read indicate that he never supported any of Obama's views and was out to make a point from the beginning.

[Desperado]

Didn't I hear recently that Wurzelbacher has been stumping for McCain lately?

The reports I have read indicate that he never supported any of Obama's views and was out to make a point from the beginning.




Quote:
Joe the no show (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/30/joe-the-plumber-missing-at-mccain-event/)
Posted: 01:11 PM ET

From CNN Ticker Producer Alexander Mooney (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/tag/cnn-ticker-producer-alexander-mooney/)
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/10/30/art.wurzelbacher.ap.jpg Joe Wurzelbacher did show up to a Palin event Wednesday.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif

(CNN) — Joe Wurzelbacher, aka Joe the Plumber, has become an integral part of John McCain's presidential bid, but it appears the Arizona senator's campaign and the now-famous Toledo plumber need to work on their communication skills.
McCain aides told CNN's Dana Bash Wurzelbacher would appear with the Republican presidential candidate at his first campaign event in Defiance, Ohio. But in what was a slightly awkward moment for McCain, Wurzelbacher was nowhere to be seen when the Arizona senator called out for him.
A campaign aide later said Wurzelbacher had "decided not to come" and may join McCain later in the day.
But reached at his home by CNN's Mary Snow, Wurzelbacher said it was "news to him" that he was supposed to be at the McCain rally. Wurzelbacher said nobody from the McCain campaign confirmed he was attending the event and called the incident a "miscommunication."
Wurzelbacher also said he is headed to Philadelphia for a charity event unrelated to the campaign and has no plans to meet up with McCain today.

[Soup Nazi]

According to Court Records, Joe The Plumber only made about 40k in 2006. Not quite enough to buy Newell Plumbing and Heating company of Toledo (which was his original statement). He also described Newell as (conveniently) making between 250-280k per year, and he was one of 2 employees. However tax records provided by Dun and Bradstreet showed that they had 8 employees and made significantly more. He also doesn't have a plumbers license, but I give him a break on that since he is not required to have one.

Thats just off the top of my head. My real point is that I still have a hard time beleiving that they did not find and promote an actual person who would suffer under Obama's plan. I am an Obama supporter, but even I admit that MANY small businesses will be adversely affected by his proposals. I have a hard time beleiving they couldn't find ONE that fit the bill, and would be happy to help the McCain campaign.

[Pharon]

I think Joe the Plumber had originally said he would make more then enough to be taxed...
I think he just asked the question:

“I’m getting ready to buy a company that makes $250,000 to $280,000 a year,” he told Mr. Obama during an exchange that was filmed and later showed up on YouTube. “Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn’t it?”

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight

[Rover]

This Obama infomercial sounds like a Ken Burns documentary.I never realized this was such a depressing, downtrodden country. Soup lines are moments away. There is also a shocking inability for families to provide snacks for their children. I was unaware of this phenomenon and might have to consider voting for Obama, just so the kids can have their snacks.

Not really. Under Obama's tax plan, people who make less than $250,000 will not see a tax increase. Not everyone under $250,000, however, will see a tax cut. Biden said people making less than $150,000 deserve a tax cut. That's what they're getting. That's what the plan has always been.

People between $150,000 and $250,000 will see basically nothing. I believe the tax cut for someone making between $150,000 and $200,000 is like $30.Today Obama said in Florida that people making under $200,000 will not see any tax increases. Not income tax. Not payroll tax. Not capital gains tax.

Nevermind that he's has promised to raise both the payroll taxes and capital gains tax. Does Obama plan to have a separate cap gains tax rate for people making under $200,000? Does Obama understand capital gains taxes? The same questions apply to payroll taxes.

I'll wait for the media to ask him about this apparent contradiction.

Born winner? At what? Yahtzee? Definitely not Trivial Pursuit, that's certain.Yeah, she really just managed to luck her way through life. Every election, lucky people get elected governor. It's crazy how lucky all of our governors are and how they are completely unqualified for governing.

We must be idiots.

[Desperado]

Yeah, she really just managed to luck her way through life. Every election, lucky people get elected governor. It's crazy how lucky all of our governors are and how they are completely unqualified for governing.

We must be idiots.


Arnold is a perfect example of that .Every election shes been in... you mean as a mayor? Shes only had one election as a Govenor and her favoribility has dropped quite a bit since people actually realize how much of an idiot she is.

[Rover]

According to Court Records, Joe The Plumber only made about 40k in 2006. Not quite enough to buy Newell Plumbing and Heating company of Toledo (which was his original statement). He also described Newell as (conveniently) making between 250-280k per year, and he was one of 2 employees. However tax records provided by Dun and Bradstreet showed that they had 8 employees and made significantly more. He also doesn't have a plumbers license, but I give him a break on that since he is not required to have one.

Thats just off the top of my head.I don't think you have access to information that would make you able to determine whether or not Joe could afford to buy his business.

You don't know how much in savings he has.
What kinds of loans he could obtain.
What type of investors he might have lined up.
What kind of agreement was going to be made between the previous owner and Joe.

[Desperado]

I don't think you have access to information that would make you able to determine whether or not Joe could afford to buy his business.

You don't know how much in savings he has.
What kinds of loans he could obtain.
What type of investors he might have lined up.
What kind of agreement was going to be made between the previous owner and Joe.

Umm in his own words.... "Wurzelbacher admitted to a reporter that he won't actually make enough from his new plumbing business to pay Obama's higher tax rates. " If you need video of him saying this... GO FUCKING FIND IT!!!

[Rover]

Arnold is a perfect example of that .Every election shes been in... you mean as a mayor? Shes only had one election as a Govenor and her favoribility has dropped quite a bit since people actually realize how much of an idiot she is.Arnold's biggest problem is his Congress is full of idiots, who are controlled by special interest lobbies.


Umm in his own words.... "Wurzelbacher admitted to a reporter that he won't actually make enough from his new plumbing business to pay Obama's higher tax rates. " If you need video of him saying this... GO FUCKING FIND IT!!!Um....Soup was saying that Joe couldn't afford to BUY his business. I disputed the fact that he couldn't buy his business. Not what his tax rate would be.

Try to follow along.

[smahoo]

just as you don't know if he was a McCain campaign plant

just as you don't know that he's a joke and a boldfaced liar

just as you don't know that he doesn't have some under the table deal with the McCain campaign to pay him while he's on the trail for both McCain and Bible Spice

you just don't know, do ya Rover

[Rover]

just as you don't know if he was a McCain campaign plant

just as you don't know that he's a joke and a boldfaced liar

just as you don't know that he doesn't have some under the table deal with the McCain campaign to pay him while he's on the trail for both McCain and Bible Spice

you just don't know, do ya RoverObama showed up in his neighborhood and tracked him down to make him ask questions. I doubt Joe the Plumber is a McCain plant.

I think we have a Conspiracy Thread now.

[smahoo]

didn't say he was, just said you don't really know

i guess he must have some savings though, how else could he afford to be out on the campaign trail. i mean it does cost something to travel around to each of the stops he's made... sure hope he claims all he's receiving as taxable income, or maybe Palin can pass this off as an expense on her travel account

[Soup Nazi]

I don't think you have access to information that would make you able to determine whether or not Joe could afford to buy his business.

You don't know how much in savings he has.
What kinds of loans he could obtain.
What type of investors he might have lined up.
What kind of agreement was going to be made between the previous owner and Joe.

I'll take my chances in an era where bank loans are exceedingly tight (especially for "small businesses"), and you need a huge amount of collateral to even get loans if you are a large entity, that Joe the Plumber, with his 40k annual salary cannot raise the money to buy a company with yearly revenues around 600k, and yearly profits of 250(pre-tax). The selling price (unless the owner is a complete dimwit, in a homosexual relationship with Joe, or sees disaster ahead) would likely be pushing 1 million dollars, I would imagine (that would mean, with current trends, Joe would have a 100% ROI after 4 years, or 25% annually. The only thing with that type of a ROI on average is a fucking McDonalds franchise and those things are pure gold).

So yes, I don't KNOW these types of things. But I am making a fairly obvious assumption. Unless Joe is getting personal financial advice from Warren Buffet, worked in a previous occupation where he made much more and saved it, is the heir to a large inheritance, or is completely delusional, I doubt he was really "Planning" on buying this business and is guilty of supplying a "gotcha!" question. In the present however, after his career as a congressman and/or country singer (both rumoured) begin to take off, he MAY be able to afford that business, and for that I say "congrats".

[Smokestack]

Regardless of the merits of Joe the Bullshitter, I find it amazing that he's become the centerpiece of the McCain/Palin campaign. I would be more inclined to go with Tito the Builder, based on his animal magnetism.

At any rate, here's more about Joe the Non-Issue and his newly found delusions of grandeur:

Joe the Plumber Hires a Nashville Publicist

Posted: October 29th, 2008 at 1:02 am | By: Calvin Gilbert (http://blog.cmt.com/author/gilbert/)
I guess it was inevitable: Joe the Plumber (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/15/who-is-joe-the-plumber/) has hired a publicist. And it’s a Nashville publicist, at that. I just returned to the office late Tuesday night after covering an event in downtown Nashville and saw the e-mail message: “We are excited to announce the addition of Joe ‘The Plumber’ Wurzelbacher to The Press Office (http://www.thepressoffice.com/) for exclusive public relations representation!” Wurzelbacher, of course, is the Ohio man who wants to buy a plumbing business but is concerned about the nation’s financial future. The guy whose favor was aggressively courted by both John McCain and Barack Obama in the last presidential debate. The guy who, as The Daily Show’s Jon Stewart says, has already done more interviews than Sarah Palin. I must emphasize that The Press Office is a reputable company that’s owned and operated by Jim Della Croce, a respected music industry veteran. His other clients include John Anderson, Pam Tillis and McCain supporter Aaron Tippin. But you have to wonder about the plans for Joe the Plumber’s upcoming public relations campaign. Will there be more media opportunities for him after the election? A lot of public appearances? Is there a book deal in the works? But, dear God, please don’t tell me Joe has abandoned his plan to buy a plumbing business so he can concentrate on his real dream — to become a country music star.


(http://blog.cmt.com/2008-10-29/joe-the-plumber-hires-a-nashville-publicist/)


So fucking stupid.

[smahoo]

McCain Rally Draws 6,000 in Defiance, Ohio.....

Uhmm, 4,000 of them were bused in school kids

The most cringe-worthy political moment of the day, so far, came when Sen. John McCain called out for his new buddy Joe the Plumber to stand up at a rally in Ohio, only to be greeted with confused silence (crickets). Joe the Plumber wasn't there (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/30/joe-the-plumber-ditches-m_n_139248.html).

But that rally featured another embarrassing moment, one that illustrates a far more troubling dynamic for the Republican ticket. The McCain campaign actually had to bus in school kids from the surrounding area in order to fill the event.
A local school district official confirmed after the event that of the 6,000 people estimated by the fire marshal to be in attendance this morning, more than 4,000 were bused in from schools in the area. The entire 2,500-student Defiance School District was in attendance, the official said, in addition to at least three other schools from neighboring districts, one of which sent 14 buses.
This happened -- as if a reminder were needed -- less than a week out from the election, when the heat of the campaign should be drawing record crowds.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/30/mccain-camp-busses-in-sch_n_139300.html

[smahoo]

SECRET McCAIN CAMPAIGN MEMO LEAKED

http://a.236.com/images/photo2/6888/original/original_opt.jpg

[Gary_Busey]

Fucking hilarious.

[Yelram]

You fucking people disgust me. This guy asked a question, it may have certainly been hypothetical, but either way, how Obama answered the question is the issue here, not what the fucking dude makes a year. How have we gotten to this people? You are demonizing a man for asking a question of someone who he, as a taxpayer, may soon be employing, while he was stopping in the DUDE FRONT YARD. Obama and Biden do not like to be asked hard questions. If someone asked Bush a question, and the republicans did nothing but focus on how much the person makes a year, or some other bullshit, going as far as illegally accessing his driver records, you freaks would be having a fucking fit. http://proteinwisdom.com/?p=13542

[smahoo]

c'mon yelram. it's all in good humor. after all, this guy's made a joke of himself for the past 3 weeks

[Gary_Busey]

I think it wouldn't be such a big deal if McCain didn't revolve his entire campaign around the guy. If McCain can use Joe The Plumber in his attacks on Obama, I don't see why Obama can't use Joe The Plumber to defend against those attacks.

[Desperado]

haha man thats hilarious, he wants to be part of the campaign... fair game.

[Yelram]

c'mon yelram. it's all in good humor. after all, this guy's made a joke of himself for the past 3 weeks

How is that? If fucking Obama stops in my front yard, and I ask him a question, and all of you fucking crazy obamabots go through my tax records, and illegally access government computers, I wouldnt take it as lightly as this guy. You people are going to be in for a cold bucket of water dumped on your head once your little love affair with obama hits the reality of a brick wall. HE IS A LIAR, HE HAS NO RECORD, HE IS BLOWING SMOKE UP ALL OF YOU NAIVE SUCKERS ASS, he's not a saint, he's not a fucking priest, he's a goddamn politician, and people need to realize that. If I believed half of what he said, I would consider voting for him, I believed him at one point, and I watched as he pandered to everyone, told everyone what they want to hear, and has absolutely nobody questioning his bullshit EXCEPT talk radio.

[smahoo]

take a few of these yelram

http://www.geocities.com/vibestothemax/chill_pill.jpg

[Lone Wolf]

Fuck Joe the Plummer ... yeah I said it

[Desperado]

How is that? If fucking Obama stops in my front yard, and I ask him a question, and all of you fucking crazy obamabots go through my tax records, and illegally access government computers, I wouldnt take it as lightly as this guy. You people are going to be in for a cold bucket of water dumped on your head once your little love affair with obama hits the reality of a brick wall. HE IS A LIAR, HE HAS NO RECORD, HE IS BLOWING SMOKE UP ALL OF YOU NAIVE SUCKERS ASS, he's not a saint, he's not a fucking priest, he's a goddamn politician, and people need to realize that.


Whoa whoa... looks like someone needs a nap. If you decided to campaign for mccain and be a public spokesmen for him.... get ready to be scrutinized. Illegal info being leaked is bad, of course, however this guy wants to now run for office and get an agent... game on.

[Pharon]

How is that? If fucking Obama stops in my front yard, and I ask him a question, and all of you fucking crazy obamabots go through my tax records, and illegally access government computers, I wouldnt take it as lightly as this guy. You people are going to be in for a cold bucket of water dumped on your head once your little love affair with obama hits the reality of a brick wall. HE IS A LIAR, HE HAS NO RECORD, HE IS BLOWING SMOKE UP ALL OF YOU NAIVE SUCKERS ASS, he's not a saint, he's not a fucking priest, he's a goddamn politician, and people need to realize that. If I believed half of what he said, I would consider voting for him, I believed him at one point, and I watched as he pandered to everyone, told everyone what they want to hear, and has absolutely nobody questioning his bullshit EXCEPT talk radio.
Dude, you do realize it wasn't OBAMA who did all of that shit, right? It was the media -- y'know guys who's job depend on getting a good story.

You blaming Obama for this stuff is no better than the people who are calling Joe a liar. The whole thing was overblown. BY OTHER PEOPLE. So hate on them.

[Yelram]

Whoa whoa... looks like someone needs a nap. If you decided to campaign for mccain and be a public spokesmen for him.... get ready to be scrutinized. Illegal info being leaked is bad, of course, however this guy wants to now run for office and get an agent... game on.

We are losing our ability to question our leaders. And everyone said that about Bush, and that was a total bunch of shit. Bush was the most criticized president this country has ever seen. This guy has the ability to make that level of suppression a reality, and that scares the shit out of me. He has been the most secretive, least experienced, presidential candidate in a century.

[Yelram]

Dude, you do realize it wasn't OBAMA who did all of that shit, right? It was the media -- y'know guys who's job depend on getting a good story.

You blaming Obama for this stuff is no better than the people who are calling Joe a liar. The whole thing was overblown. BY OTHER PEOPLE. So hate on them.

Yeah, and Hitler never killed a jew with his own hands, its the environment he fostered.

[Pharon]

Yeah, and Hitler never killed a jew with his own hands, its the environment he fostered.
Oh give it a rest. You're suggesting that Obama ENCOURAGED thousands of journalists to rifle through Joe's life in the hopes of uncovering things that mean absolutely nothing?

Whatever.

[smahoo]

Halloween message from the McCain family

http://www.236.com/images/photo2/6836/original/original.jpg

[Yelram]

Oh give it a rest. You're suggesting that Obama ENCOURAGED thousands of journalists to rifle through Joe's life in the hopes of uncovering things that mean absolutely nothing?

Whatever.

ZCMDur9CDZ4

[Gary_Busey]

Wow, that proved absolutely nothing.

[fuldstændigamok]

Yelram, you really, really, really are a pathetic nutjob.

[Yelram]

Wow, that proved absolutely nothing.

Get in their faces?
The media is at his fucking disposal, how can you not see that?

[Gary_Busey]

Get in their faces?
The media is at his fucking disposal, how can you not see that?
My leftist conspiracy nutjob frontal lobe must not be functioning correctly.

[Yelram]

My leftist conspiracy nutjob lobe must not be functioning correctly.

You dont think the media has an obsession with Obama? I mean how can you watch whats going on and believe anything but? Every person I talk to is totally dumbfounded as to how this guy can get by with so little to back what he says up. He could literally be promising you anything, and you'd believe it. I dont know how anyone could watch that infomercial of his without getting angry.

[Pharon]

Get in their faces?
The media is at his fucking disposal, how can you not see that?
You obviously didn't listen to the clip at all.

What he was doing was asking his supporters to talk to their friends about the issues and try to convince them to vote for him.

How you somehow interpreted that to mean he wanted the media to go rifling through some poor guy's financial records is just absolutely beyond me.

[Claydon]

Yes we can't?

[smahoo]

easy...look at the other candidate and see what they have to offer

[Desperado]

. I dont know how anyone could watch that infomercial of his without getting angry.


Hmm I watched did not feel angry... maybe im dead inside.

[fuldstændigamok]

easy...look at the other candidate and see what they have to offer

Palin?

[Gary_Busey]

You dont think the media has an obsession with Obama? I mean how can you watch whats going on and believe anything but? Every person I talk to is totally dumbfounded as to how this guy can get by with so little to back what he says up. He could literally be promising you anything, and you'd believe it. I dont know how anyone could watch that infomercial of his without getting angry.
Well you gotta believe someone, and I sure as hell don't believe Palin or McCain.

[smahoo]

Fuld, i was responding to this


You dont think the media has an obsession with Obama? I mean how can you watch whats going on and believe anything but? Every person I talk to is totally dumbfounded as to how this guy can get by with so little to back what he says up. He could literally be promising you anything, and you'd believe it. I dont know how anyone could watch that infomercial of his without getting angry.

[fuldstændigamok]

Fuld, i was responding to this

Oh! Well, my answer is still working, though, isn't it?

[Yelram]

Hmm I watched did not feel angry... maybe im dead inside.

Or maybe you buy his empty promises. If he wins, I will be here, holding you guys' feet to the fire, to admit he was nothing but a pretty face, in an empty suit, who makes good speeches.

[Desperado]

Or maybe you buy his empty promises. If he wins, I will be here, holding you guys' feet to the fire, to admit he was nothing but a pretty face, in an empty suit, who makes good speeches.


We shall see.... In other news


Obama ad a ratings success (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/30/obama-ad-a-ratings-success/)
Posted: 03:10 PM ET

From CNN Ticker Producer Alexander Mooney (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/tag/cnn-ticker-producer-alexander-mooney/)
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/10/30/art.obamaad.cnn.jpg Obama's 30 minute ad was watched by nearly 30 million people.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif

(CNN) — The major networks may just wish Barack Obama took up more airtime after taking a look at the ratings for the Democratic presidential candidate's 30-minute infomercial Wednesday night.
According to preliminary ratings numbers from the networks, more than 26 million people watched the program on CBS, NBC or Fox. That's 3 million more than usually watch those networks at that hour, according to the Hollywood Reporter. Averaging in the cable networks that also carried the event, about 30 million people in all saw the long-form campaign ad.
The ad was most watched on NBC, where nearly 10 million viewers tuned in. More than 8.5 million watched on CBS while just under 8 million viewed the program on Fox. On average, about 7 million people usually tune into each network at that hour.
Overall, according to Nielsen, for the six networks that aired the infomercial simultaneously, it scored a household rating of nearly 22 percent — meaning 22 percent of all households watching television at that hour tuned into the spot. That compares to the 38.3 household rating the last presidential debate scored.
Obama's combined audience beat the highest rated television show last week: CBS' CSI drew about 20 million viewers. It also drew more than double the viewers the average World Series game this year did.
But even if viewers didn't catch the spot when it first aired, clips of the program have repeatedly been broadcast across the cable news chanels Thursday, maximizing the Illinois senator's exposure in the crucial remaining days before Election Day.
"The strategic brilliance of this for Obama is that he is going to consume about 24 hours of the news cycle," Evan Tracey of Campaign Media Analysis Group said. "It boxes [John] McCain in, takes the oxygen out of the room."

[Yelram]

We shall see.... In other news

Did you watch it? And did you think it wasnt bullshit? Pick 4 people in the country, dont show what wealth they have, what cars they have, dont even show the womans husband, and then infer that the reason these people have it hard is because of "Bush's failed policies" You really think thats anything but bullshit? If he does what he says, i'll do a complete turnaround, I will be the biggest Obama supporter you ever knew, but the dude lies, since the primaries, i've caught him in atleast half a dozen bold-faced lies, that noone wants to call him on.

[Desperado]

Did you watch it? And did you think it wasnt bullshit? Pick 4 people in the country, dont show what wealth they have, what cars they have, dont even show the womans husband, and then infer that the reason these people have it hard is because of "Bush's failed policies" You really think thats anything but bullshit? If he does what he says, i'll do a complete turnaround, I will be the biggest Obama supporter you ever knew, but the dude lies, since the primaries, i've caught him in atleast half a dozen bold-faced lies, that noone wants to call him on.


I didnt think it was bullshit, but I have already voted for him so what does it really matter. Its not my damn job to convince anyone that he will be a great president, its his. The program was made for anyone that had questions about him and they havent already made up their mind, soooo for someone who has already made up their mind and voted for mccain... why even watch it? To answer your question I dont think the economy was completely bush's fault, but i do think his complete failure of an adminstration certainly didnt help, as well as the 6 year republican control of congress.

[Yelram]

I didnt think it was bullshit, but I have already voted for him so what does it really matter. Its not my damn job to convince anyone that he will be a great president, its his. The program was made for anyone that had questions about him and they havent already made up their mind, soooo for someone who has already made up their mind and voted for mccain... why even watch it? To answer your question I dont think the economy was completely bush's fault, but i do think his complete failure of an adminstration certainly didnt help, as well as the 6 year republican control of congress.

So you have a belief, and no proof, but you're pretty sure it was the republican congress, and yet, we had very little problems until the large democratic "surge" of 2006. Who pledged to "lower oil prices" and be the most "ethical and transparent congress in history" are you fucking kidding me? Do you even follow politics the years that arent presidential elections? Or are you one of those fairweather fans of politics, that comes in during an election spouting talking points, with absolutely no observational instances of your own, just articles you pull from huffington? If I posted Rush Limbaugh the amount of times your dumbass posted huffington, you guys would laugh me out of the thread.

[Ace Rockola]

Well shit Yelram, why don't you become a journalist since you're the only one in the entire country willing to ask Obama the "tough" questions?

[mongo]

i found this quiz in the op/ed section of the new york times lulzy.

1. Speaking about the campaign, John McCain said: “It’s not an easy business. It’s not ...
A) Mumblety-peg.
B) Beanbag.
C) Tiddledy Winks.
D) Table Skittles.
******
2. Which one of these statements did Barack Obama make while campaigning?
A) “I’ve now been in 57 states. I think one left to go.”
B) “Most of all, I believe in you, Nebraska. Or South Dakota. Or wherever I am.”
C) “We’ve come so far since we began this campaign 21 years ago.”
******
3. When Tom Brokaw asked McCain to compare himself to a movie character, McCain’s first response was to mention:
A) The entire cast of “Hoosiers.”
B) Knute Rockne, urging his team to win one for the dead Gipper.
C) The dead Gipper.
D) Leonardo DiCaprio in “Titanic,” saving the girl before going down for the third time.
E) Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky, Rocky.
******
4. Levi Johnston, Bristol Palin’s fiancé, gave an interview to The Associated Press in which he revealed that, at first, he was nervous about appearing with the Palin family at the Republican convention, but later:
A) Was excited by the chance to meet Mitt Romney.
B) “... was like, ‘Whatever.’ ”
C) Prepared by reading up on the party platform.
******
5. Which of the following did Joe Biden NOT say while he was campaigning for vice president?
A) That he hated one of Obama’s anti-McCain commercials, then retracted his criticism since he hadn’t actually seen it.
B) That Hillary Clinton “might have been a better pick than me.”
C) That to find out what Americans think, you had to walk “down Union Street with me in Wilmington and go to Katie’s Restaurant,” an eatery that has been closed for nearly 20 years. And was never on Union Street.
D) That even though he takes the Amtrak home to Delaware every night, he’s never once sat in the quiet car.
E) Asked a Missouri state senator to stand up and be recognized, apparently forgetting that the man was wheelchair-bound.
******
6. Senator Elizabeth Dole of North Carolina, struggling in the polls, released an ad that appears to have her opponent saying ...:
A) “Deep in my heart, I know Elizabeth is the better choice.”
B) “There is no God.”
C) “We need to concentrate on Wall Street instead of Main Street.”
D) “The Tar Heels stink.”
******
7. Democrat Tim Mahoney of Florida, who was elected to replace the Congressional-page-obsessed Mark Foley, has now admitted to “multiple affairs” and is being investigated for allegedly paying one former lover/staff member $121,000. His campaign slogan when he ran against Foley was:
A) “Keeping Our Philandering Heterosexual.”
B) “Restoring America’s Values Begins at Home.”
C) “Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.”
******
8. Which of the following did Representative Charles Rangel, the chairman of the powerful House Ways and Means Committee, NOT do during the current campaign season?
A) Announce he was giving up a rent-stabilized apartment that he used as an office while keeping three others.
B) Explain his failure to pay taxes on rental income from a Dominican Republic vacation home by saying he got confused because his business partners kept speaking Spanish.
C) Call out to some New Yorkers who were coughing from pepper spray in the lobby of a hotel in Denver during the Democratic convention: “I’m outta here! I’ll send you cigarettes!”
D) Say of Sarah Palin’s wardrobe: “For $150,000, you’d think she’d get better shoes.”
******
9. At his final appearance before the United Nations, President George W. Bush assured world leaders that his administration was responding to the economic crisis by taking:
A) Bold steps.
B) Baby steps.
C) Another look at invading Iran.
******
ANSWERS: 1-B, 2-A, 3-C, 4-B, 5-D, 6-B, 7-B, 8-D, 9-A

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/30/opinion/30collins.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

[Desperado]

So you have a belief, and no proof, but you're pretty sure it was the republican congress, and yet, we had very little problems until the large democratic "surge" of 2006. Who pledged to "lower oil prices" and be the most "ethical and transparent congress in history" are you fucking kidding me? Do you even follow politics the years that arent presidential elections? Or are you one of those fairweather fans of politics, that comes in during an election spouting talking points, with absolutely no observational instances of your own, just articles you pull from huffington? If I posted Rush Limbaugh the amount of times your dumbass posted huffington, you guys would laugh me out of the thread.


Hahaha wow... Huffington post articles... If you actually go back and look at most of the articles I post, you would see CNN, or Yahoo. But hey with the media bias today, there is no real fair press right?

you guys would laugh me out of the thread

Already happens everyday you post.

If I remember correctly I posted an article about Palin saying women who are raped shouldnt be able to get abortions, came from the huffington post... man that was funny when you said:

Please show me the quote that says women who are raped shouldnt be allowed to have an abortion.

[Desperado]

The more you know :)


Fact check: Does group McCain chairs have link to Columbia professor Khalidi? (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/30/fact-check-does-group-mccain-chairs-have-link-to-columbia-professor-khalidi/)
Posted: 05:34 PM ET
The Statement
The campaign of Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, on Wednesday, October 29, responded to Republican opponent Sen. John McCain criticism of Obama's relationship with Rashid Khalidi, an Arab studies professor at Columbia University, by suggesting that McCain also had a link to Khalidi. It said, "John McCain should answer why, under his own chairmanship, the International Republican Institute repeatedly funded an organization Khalidi founded, the Center for Palestine Research and Studies, over the course of many years."
Get the facts!

The Facts
McCain and vice presidential candidate Gov. Sarah Palin have raised the issue of Barack Obama's relationship with Khalidi, a scholar who has been critical of Israel and U.S. foreign policy. Palin, on October 29 in Ohio, described him as a "radical professor from the neighborhood who spent a lot of time with Barack Obama going back several years." She also called him a "political ally" of Obama.
Obama knows Khalidi from their days in Chicago, but his campaign says he "has been clear and consistent on his support for Israel, and has been clear that Rashid Khalidi is not an adviser to him or his campaign and that he does not share Khalidi's views."
Since 1993, McCain has been chairman of the International Republican Institute — a nonprofit and nonpartisan group that helps promote democratic practices and institutions across the globe.
The IRI, in an October 29 press release, said it "gave grants" to the Center for Palestinian Research and Studies for polling in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza. The IRI said its "relationship with CPRS ended in 2000, and we understand that it no longer exists."
"We understand that Rashid Khalidi was one of the many founders of CPRS, and we understand that he was for some (unclear) amount of time a board member," the IRI said.
A defunct CPRS Web site lists Khalidi was one of the seven people who founded the group in March 1993. CPRS described itself as "an independent academic research and policy analysis institution."
"Because CPRS is independent of political factions, it is in a unique position of being able to serve as a forum for meetings of Palestinian and international researchers from various political backgrounds and ideologies in a free academic and professional atmosphere," the group said.
Michael Goldfarb, a McCain spokesman, told CNN on October 29 that "John McCain has never met Rashid Khalidi, while Barack Obama has acknowledged a close friendship with him."
The Verdict: True. There was a relationship in the 1990s between the IRI, chaired by McCain, and the CPRS, co-founded by Khalidi, which received IRI funding.

[Pollo]

just what I fucking need during Monday night football:

On the eve of the presidential election, with "Monday Night Football" from Washington as the backdrop, candidates Barack Obama and John McCain are planning to participate in one-on-one interviews on ESPN via satellite.

ESPN's Chris Berman will do the segments earlier Monday, pending last-minute schedule changes by the candidates, and they'll air at halftime of the Redskins-Pittsburgh Steelers broadcast from D.C., the network announced. The game kicks off at 8:30 p.m. ET.

The interviews will give both Obama, the Democratic senator from Illinois, and McCain, the Republican senator from Arizona, a last major chance to appeal to Americans during a coveted spot on prime-time television. "Monday Night Football" has averaged 12.2 million viewers this season.

"We worked with our partners at the NFL to schedule a Monday Night Football game in Washington on this special night, and this presents a unique opportunity for John McCain and Barack Obama to reflect upon the last few months and address a large primetime audience on the final day of the campaigns," Norby Williamson, ESPN executive vice president, production, said in a statement.

It will be the first NFL game played in the D.C. area on the Monday night before a presidential election in 24 years. The Redskins defeated the Atlanta Falcons 27-14 on Nov. 5, 1984; Ronald Reagan was re-elected the following day.

The Redskins, in fact, are an accurate barometer for presidential elections. According to Steve Hirdt of the Elias Sports Bureau, who coined the term "Redskins Rule" in 2000, the following bromide has held true for the past 17 presidential elections: If the Redskins win their last home game prior to Election Day, the party that won the popular vote in the previous election wins the White House; if the Redskins lose, the party that lost the popular vote in the previous election wins.

In this Monday's case, a Steelers win would forecast an Obama victory; a Redskins win would indicate a McCain win.

"Monday Night Football" is the most-watched series in cable television history. Now in its third season on ESPN, MNF has registered nine of the top 10 all-time biggest household audiences in cable history, led by this year's Eagles-Cowboys telecast on Sept. 15, which attracted cable's largest audience ever -- 13.0 million homes and 18.6 million viewers.

Obama previously appeared on "Monday Night Football" on Dec. 11, 2006, when he opened the broadcast of a game involving his hometown Chicago Bears by parodying his own upcoming official announcement of his intention to run for the presidency.

"I am ready," he said, before putting on a Bears baseball cap, "for the Bears to go all the way, baby!"

[Le Goat]

CHAPEL HILL, N.C. – Shawn Turschak of Chapel Hill was tired of someone stealing McCain-Palin campaign signs from his yard. Turschak, with a degree in electrical engineering, hooked up a third sign to a power source for an electric pet fence Monday and also put up a surveillance camera.
The News & Observer of Raleigh reported that a 9-year-old boy with an Obama-Biden sign grabbed the McCain-Palin sign and got a jolt on Tuesday.
The boy's father, Andrew Noble, upset that his son had been shocked, showed up at Turschak's door. Soon an Orange County sheriff's deputy also showed up at the Turschak's home.
Noble said his son just wanted to see how the sign was put together. Turschak said the boy intended to swap out the signs.
Sheriff Lindy Pendergrass said he doesn't plan to file charges.


SHENANIGANS ARE AFOOT!

[URFloorMatt]

The Redskins, in fact, are an accurate barometer for presidential elections. According to Steve Hirdt of the Elias Sports Bureau, who coined the term "Redskins Rule" in 2000, the following bromide has held true for the past 17 presidential elections: If the Redskins win their last home game prior to Election Day, the party that won the popular vote in the previous election wins the White House; if the Redskins lose, the party that lost the popular vote in the previous election wins.

In this Monday's case, a Steelers win would forecast an Obama victory; a Redskins win would indicate a McCain win.Except in 2004, when the Packers won and Bush still won. Well researched.

[Ace Rockola]

CHAPEL HILL, N.C. – Shawn Turschak of Chapel Hill was tired of someone stealing McCain-Palin campaign signs from his yard. Turschak, with a degree in electrical engineering, hooked up a third sign to a power source for an electric pet fence Monday and also put up a surveillance camera.
The News & Observer of Raleigh reported that a 9-year-old boy with an Obama-Biden sign grabbed the McCain-Palin sign and got a jolt on Tuesday.
The boy's father, Andrew Noble, upset that his son had been shocked, showed up at Turschak's door. Soon an Orange County sheriff's deputy also showed up at the Turschak's home.
Noble said his son just wanted to see how the sign was put together. Turschak said the boy intended to swap out the signs.
Sheriff Lindy Pendergrass said he doesn't plan to file charges.

Where's the vid? That shit is hilarious. And the kid didn't think the wire going around the sign he shouldn't touch?

[hatepoppy]

Where's the vid? That shit is hilarious. And the kid didn't think the wire going around the sign he shouldn't touch?
i love how the guy was so chickenshit as to coerce his kid to swap a sign because of HIS political belief.

[heelsguy]

Regardless of the merits of Joe the Bullshitter, I find it amazing that he's become the centerpiece of the McCain/Palin campaign. I would be more inclined to go with Tito the Builder, based on his animal magnetism.

At any rate, here's more about Joe the Non-Issue and his newly found delusions of grandeur:

Joe the Plumber Hires a Nashville Publicist

Posted: October 29th, 2008 at 1:02 am | By: Calvin Gilbert (http://blog.cmt.com/author/gilbert/)
I guess it was inevitable: Joe the Plumber (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/15/who-is-joe-the-plumber/) has hired a publicist. And it’s a Nashville publicist, at that. I just returned to the office late Tuesday night after covering an event in downtown Nashville and saw the e-mail message: “We are excited to announce the addition of Joe ‘The Plumber’ Wurzelbacher to The Press Office (http://www.thepressoffice.com/) for exclusive public relations representation!” Wurzelbacher, of course, is the Ohio man who wants to buy a plumbing business but is concerned about the nation’s financial future. The guy whose favor was aggressively courted by both John McCain and Barack Obama in the last presidential debate. The guy who, as The Daily Show’s Jon Stewart says, has already done more interviews than Sarah Palin. I must emphasize that The Press Office is a reputable company that’s owned and operated by Jim Della Croce, a respected music industry veteran. His other clients include John Anderson, Pam Tillis and McCain supporter Aaron Tippin. But you have to wonder about the plans for Joe the Plumber’s upcoming public relations campaign. Will there be more media opportunities for him after the election? A lot of public appearances? Is there a book deal in the works? But, dear God, please don’t tell me Joe has abandoned his plan to buy a plumbing business so he can concentrate on his real dream — to become a country music star.


(http://blog.cmt.com/2008-10-29/joe-the-plumber-hires-a-nashville-publicist/)


So fucking stupid.

maybe because obama has run an airtight no leaks one message campaign that made it impossible for obama to be asked a question not already scripted.

obama could have saved a shit-load of money and held a 30 minute press conference with a cross-section of the press and we would have learned a lot more. all he did was pay a shitload of money to tell us what we already know about HIS MESSAGE. the undecided are mostly undecided because people do not knwo about HIM.

[Desperado]

obama could have saved a shit-load of money and held a 30 minute press conference with a cross-section of the press and we would have learned a lot more. all he did was pay a shitload of money to tell us what we already know about HIS MESSAGE. the undecided are mostly undecided because people do not knwo about HIM.


I dont think hes really concerned with saving money... in fact hes probably trying to spend as much as he can... I think this article gives a pretty fair and kinda random view of the program.

Last night's Barack Obama (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=barack+obama) "infomercial" crammed a lot of stuff into its 30-minute run-time. There were stories from "real Americans" (who, coincidentally, happen to live in swing states), clips from speeches, and personal stories on the candidate himself. But of all the ad's content, folks seemed most interested in the portion on Obama's parents and relatives.
Following Barack-o-vision, searches soared on all kinds of familial terms. Queries on "barack obama's father (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=barack+obama%27s+father)" and "barack obama sr. (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=barack+obama+sr.)" both surged. Related terms on "barack obama sr. biography (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=barack+obama+sr.+biography)" and "pictures of barack obama dad (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=pictures+of+barack+obama+dad)" posted strong gains. The fact that the presidential candidate barely knew his father must have helped spur the interest among viewers.
Barack's mother's story was touched upon during the ad/documentary, and drew tremendous interest in Search. Lookups for "barack obama mom (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=barack+obama+mom)" and "ann dunham cancer (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=ann+dunham+cancer)" jumped following the primetime ad, as did queries for "barack obama grandmother (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=barack+obama+grandmother)" and "obama grandparents (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=obama+grandparents)," with whom he lived during his childhood.
The infomercial also mentioned that Obama's grandmother's brother, Charlie Payne, fought in World War II. Lookups for "charlie payne (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=charlie+payne&cs=bz)" jumped during the telecast as people sought more information.
The ad itself drew mixed reviews. Some felt it skipped over "budget realities (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/fact_check_obama_ad;_ylt=AtELh3OZR5LKtFUejhkAYb0az JV4)," while others felt it was "worth the cost (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leah-mcelrath-renna/five-reasons-why-the-obam_b_139102.html)." These differing reactions may just be partisan bickering, but one fact can't be argued: The ad performed well in the ratings (http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/10/obama-ad-rating.html), beating out "the usual broadcast programming in the 8 p.m. time period." Eat your heart out, "Next Top Model."



http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzzlog/91974

[Smokestack]

maybe because obama has run an airtight no leaks one message campaign that made it impossible for obama to be asked a question not already scripted.

obama could have saved a shit-load of money and held a 30 minute press conference with a cross-section of the press and we would have learned a lot more. all he did was pay a shitload of money to tell us what we already know about HIS MESSAGE. the undecided are mostly undecided because people do not knwo about HIM.

I don't know what any of this has to do with Joe the Conman hiring a publicist but, okay, I'll bite...

There are 5 days until the end of the campaign and you're suggesting a press conference to learn things? Honestly, we should more or less know what we need to know at this point. A press conference might be nice but chances are that nothing relevatory would be discovered. Whether or not it was a good idea or well done or effective, Obama's infomercial served the purpose of closing the narrative arc of his campaign, summing up "HIS MESSAGE." (why the caps?) The undecideds are not undecided because they do not know about him...what proof do you have of that random reason? These are just indecisive people to the point that they are tailor-made for the Olive Garden's neverending pasta bowl.

[URFloorMatt]

Yes, Obama has run an airtight campaign. Obama won't hold a press conference. And Obama is all about crushing dissent and silencing the media.

I'd say these anti-Obama folks were living under a rock for the last eight years, but somehow they're still selectively living under a rock and only witnessing the evils of Obama's campaign. It's just not very effective to criticize when, in comparison to Bush, McCain, and Palin, Obama is always the least of four evils.

[heelsguy]

I don't know what any of this has to do with Joe the Conman hiring a publicist but, okay, I'll bite...

There are 5 days until the end of the campaign and you're suggesting a press conference to learn things? Honestly, we should more or less know what we need to know at this point. A press conference might be nice but chances are that nothing relevatory would be discovered. Whether or not it was a good idea or well done or effective, Obama's infomercial served the purpose of closing the narrative arc of his campaign, summing up "HIS MESSAGE." (why the caps?) The undecideds are not undecided because they do not know about him...what proof do you have of that random reason? These are just indecisive people to the point that they are tailor-made for the Olive Garden's neverending pasta bowl.

polls have shown that many of the undecideds say they are so because they want to know more about obama and his past. he has glossed over a lot of that in talking point bullets. obama really has no record to run on so without that, all you have is what you see and what you are told.

true that some of the undecideds are that way because of similar concerns about mccain and various issues surrounding him (his temperament, etc.) but McCain has 26 years of voting history he can hold up as achievements but on the other hand, has to "live down". every time a politician votes, he alienates someone, somewhere. obama is free from that except for just a short list of votes from his 2 years as senator. he has voted very liberally but tells us he will strike a non-partisan cord if elected. So given few votes to hold up to the light, all we have to go by is his relationship choices, who he associates with, what he has been influenced by, etc. if he had 10 years of voting history for us to look at, we could simply focus on that. but we do not, so we have to extrapulate forward what he will do.

So I guess I am just saying the press has asked tougher questions of Palin--in many cases--than they have Obama, someone with very little public awareness before this past January! And since Obama has not exactly been forthcoming on his own, he would have impressed me if he had shown the guts to hold a press conference...fearlessly.

[kid_vidrio]

polls have shown that many of the undecideds say they are so because they want to know more about obama and his past. he has glossed over a lot of that in talking point bullets. obama really has no record to run on so without that, all you have is what you see and what you are told.

--snip--

So I guess I am just saying the press has asked tougher questions of Palin--in many cases--than they have Obama, someone with very little public awareness before this past January! And since Obama has not exactly been forthcoming on his own, he would have impressed me if he had shown the guts to hold a press conference...fearlessly.
Firstly: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
Wtf - no record to run on? Only for people too (fill in denigrating adjective) to bother looking in all the places his record is hidden. Like on his web site. Or on several political web sites that were scoring his record while still in Illinois.
And as for the press conference, he has straight up answered questions on Khalidi, Acorn, Ayers, Wright, his birth cert, and wealth redistribution. What would be accomplished at a press conference? Are there more questions of merit that haven't been asked yet because they could only surface at a press conference? He's had live interviews, a town hall debate, taped interviews....
At this point, saying that he needs to hold a press conference to prove something is grasping at straws. It's the moving bar that his wife complained about months ago. And to be fair, Palin is getting hit with it too. It's bullshit, but it doesn't mean that he has somehow failed to provide the meat for his sandwich.

[heelsguy]

Firstly: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
Wtf - no record to run on? Only for people too (fill in denigrating adjective) to bother looking in all the places his record is hidden. Like on his web site. Or on several political web sites that were scoring his record while still in Illinois.
And as for the press conference, he has straight up answered questions on Khalidi, Acorn, Ayers, Wright, his birth cert, and wealth redistribution. What would be accomplished at a press conference? Are there more questions of merit that haven't been asked yet because they could only surface at a press conference? He's had live interviews, a town hall debate, taped interviews....
At this point, saying that he needs to hold a press conference to prove something is grasping at straws. It's the moving bar that his wife complained about months ago. And to be fair, Palin is getting hit with it too. It's bullshit, but it doesn't mean that he has somehow failed to provide the meat for his sandwich.

oh come on. do you honestly feel he has adequately and thoroughly answered all the questions surrounding his past? he is clintonesque in his teflon coating. like the whole reverend wright thing. only when o'reilly got ahold of him did he trip up. saying he never heard wright's rhetoric from the pulpit...despite a second later admitting going to church twice a month there for 20 years. really? you missed all of those? how convenient. I guess wright would just deviate from his prepared sermons if he looked out and saw obama in the audience? yep. that must be it.

obama is ambitious as all politicians are, and he met with and got money from and hosted coming-out parties, and kissed ass like all of them do...and some of those people he did that with are more than a little sketchy. but if you ask him about it he just wants to talk about the future. excuse us, but just because you expound great plans does not mean you get a free pass. you barely finished 2 years in the U.S. senate before announcing your bid.

look, he is one helluva impressive guy. Ilike a lot of what he says. I just wish I knew him better, and his website is not exactly unbiased.

[kid_vidrio]

oh come on. do you honestly feel he has adequately and thoroughly answered all the questions surrounding his past? he is clintonesque in his teflon coating. like the whole reverend wright thing. only when o'reilly got ahold of him did he trip up. saying he never heard wright's rhetoric from the pulpit...despite a second later admitting going to church twice a month there for 20 years. really? you missed all of those? how convenient. I guess wright would just deviate from his prepared sermons if he looked out and saw obama in the audience? yep. that must be it.

obama is ambitious as all politicians are, and he met with and got money from and hosted coming-out parties, and kissed ass like all of them do...and some of those people he did that with are more than a little sketchy. but of you ask him about it he just wants to talk about the future. excuse us, but just because you expound great plans does not mean you get a free pass. you barely finished 2 years in the U.S. senate before announcing your bid.
I honestly feel he has answered the Wright thing.
I don't think he was there twice a month for a full 20 years. Further, I think Wright turned up the vitriol once he had a public spotlight. He sacrificed his relationship with BO for 15 minutes of fame, and it ended worse than Sarah Palin, who now has a permanent foothold, God help us all. Wright prolly couldn't get the place in Surreal Life vacated by Palin now that the Conservative Right has picked Palin to represent its future (snicker.)

In addition, the 'glossing over' bit is because the questions are a meaningless nuisance. Glossing over baseless bullshit is much nicer and more diplomatic than grabbing some numbskull by the shoulders and saying "shut the fuck up with the baseless questions." The 'free pass' thing is beat. Let it go. Go read his issues and attack a few, but the "who is BO" has no merit.

[Yelram]

Firstly: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
Wtf - no record to run on? Only for people too (fill in denigrating adjective) to bother looking in all the places his record is hidden. Like on his web site. Or on several political web sites that were scoring his record while still in Illinois.
And as for the press conference, he has straight up answered questions on Khalidi, Acorn, Ayers, Wright, his birth cert, and wealth redistribution. What would be accomplished at a press conference? Are there more questions of merit that haven't been asked yet because they could only surface at a press conference? He's had live interviews, a town hall debate, taped interviews....
At this point, saying that he needs to hold a press conference to prove something is grasping at straws. It's the moving bar that his wife complained about months ago. And to be fair, Palin is getting hit with it too. It's bullshit, but it doesn't mean that he has somehow failed to provide the meat for his sandwich.

RECORD as in, has been in the senate more than fucking 2 years. How does he possibly know what he can do when he hasnt even spent a full term in the senate?

[Desperado]

RECORD as in, has been in the senate more than fucking 2 years. How does he possibly know what he can do when he hasnt even spent a full term in the senate?


I guess his time as a State legislator from 1997–2004 shouldnt count right?

[kid_vidrio]

RECORD as in, has been in the senate more than fucking 2 years. How does he possibly know what he can do when he hasnt even spent a full term in the senate?
I dunno. Try going to the web site and comparing his record to McCain's.
If he doesn't have a record, why do I keep reading shit like 'The most left leaning senator.' You would need a record to draw that critique, whatever it means.
Just keep shooting from the hip, buddy. One of these days you'll hit something other than your foot.

[Morfin]

Undecideds? The presidential campaign has been going on for almost two years, and full-bore for the past 12 months. How can someone be undecided, unless they are idiots. If, as some say, they still have questions about who he is, well then, those people have turned a deaf ear because there is just about everything that can be known about him.

Those that say we need to know more about Ayers or Khalidi? Look, you're not going to get any more. So, either say it doesn't matter and vote for Obama, or say that you think Obama is hiding something and vote for McCain.

If someone truly, honestly says they do not know enough about Obama after all this time, then vote against him.

MAKE A FUCKING DECISION. Christ, vote for who is taller, better looking, vote for the black guy, vote against the black guy. Just make a fucking decision.

I need a Diet Coke.

[rc113943]

i love how the guy was so chickenshit as to coerce his kid to swap a sign because of HIS political belief.

saw this video this morning on foxnews - funny stuff! no charges were pressed, thank god ... the parent should be embarassed

[Archangel]

Undecideds? The presidential campaign has been going on for almost two years, and full-bore for the past 12 months. How can someone be undecided, unless they are idiots. If, as some say, they still have questions about who he is, well then, those people have turned a deaf ear because there is just about everything that can be known about him.

Those that say we need to know more about Ayers or Khalidi? Look, you're not going to get any more. So, either say it doesn't matter and vote for Obama, or say that you think Obama is hiding something and vote for McCain.

If someone truly, honestly says they do not know enough about Obama after all this time, then vote against him.

MAKE A FUCKING DECISION. Christ, vote for who is taller, better looking, vote for the black guy, vote against the black guy. Just make a fucking decision.

I need a Diet Coke.


Christ, I know more about Barack Obama at this point than I know about my fiancée, and I don't even live in America and don't get bombarded with ads 24/7...

[Smokestack]

oh come on. do you honestly feel he has adequately and thoroughly answered all the questions surrounding his past? he is clintonesque in his teflon coating. like the whole reverend wright thing. only when o'reilly got ahold of him did he trip up. saying he never heard wright's rhetoric from the pulpit...despite a second later admitting going to church twice a month there for 20 years. really? you missed all of those? how convenient. I guess wright would just deviate from his prepared sermons if he looked out and saw obama in the audience? yep. that must be it.

obama is ambitious as all politicians are, and he met with and got money from and hosted coming-out parties, and kissed ass like all of them do...and some of those people he did that with are more than a little sketchy. but if you ask him about it he just wants to talk about the future. excuse us, but just because you expound great plans does not mean you get a free pass. you barely finished 2 years in the U.S. senate before announcing your bid.

look, he is one helluva impressive guy. Ilike a lot of what he says. I just wish I knew him better, and his website is not exactly unbiased.

Look, I hear what you're saying but the whole "don't know him" concept emanates more from McCain/Palin talking points than it does from the concerns of a majority undecided voters. For example, McCain/Palin rail on about how Obama hasn't been entirely truthful about Ayers...so, my question would be, how the fuck do they know and if they have something that illuminates that situation, they should present it instead of insinuating it. Seems to me that this could be chalked up as a reprise of McCain's claim that he knows how to catch Osama Bin-Laden without giving any details about how he'd do it...more campaign bluster than actual know-how.

The point is, the same could be said for each of these politicians and their claims of the past. The idea that one has the monopoly on "coming clean" is ridiculous because it's impossible to truly know. These are politicians and their paths cross and circles do overlap with all kinds of people, sketchy or no. McCain has his assocations with G. Gordon Liddy, Jerry Falwell (why makes Rev. Wright look like Pope John Paul II), and Charles Keating. These associations are unavoidable but, to me, what's important is how these associations have affacted or shaped their policy.

Lastly, I agree that these politicians should do more press conferences, or at least make their debates less bullshit. However, Obama went through a primary that included many articles, interviews, and real debates (as did Mccain) and so the idea that information doesn't exist on him just because his opponents cherrypick a few associations and all of a sudden say, "What's up with that?" doesn't really hold water. Palin is getting harder questions at this point, albeit not directly, because she was not a part of that primary process.

[Desperado]

I wonder if McCain will make a run at Illinois?


Obama targets McCain's home state (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/31/obama-targets-mccains-home-state/)
Posted: 10:00 AM ET

From CNN Associate Political Editor Rebecca Sinderbrand (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/tag/cnn-associate-political-editor-rebecca-sinderbrand/)
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/10/20/art.split.cnn.jpg Obama will run ads in McCain's home state of Arizona.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif

(CNN) – Barack Obama's campaign announced Friday that it was going on the air in John McCain's home state of Arizona for the first time this cycle, as a new CNN poll of polls released this morning finds the Republican nominee leading the Illinois senator there by just 4 percentage points, 49 to 45 percent. Six percent of the state's voters said they were unsure about their presidential pick.
Obama campaign manager David Plouffe told reporters the campaign's positive closing argument spot, 'Something,' will hit the airwaves in Arizona. He also said the campaign was going back on the airwaves in Georgia and North Dakota with its negative closing argument spot, 'Rearview Mirror,' which ties McCain to President Bush.
CNN's new Georgia poll of polls shows McCain still leading Obama by 6 points, 50 to 44 percent, amid reports of overwhelming early voting turnout.
On Thursday, MoveOn.org announced that it was targeting the Arizona senator with ad buys in each of the state's major media markets. The Obama camp issued a call for volunteers there, citing tightening polls in the state.

[kareyn01]

Look, I hear what you're saying but the whole "don't know him" concept emanates more from McCain/Palin talking points than it does from the concerns of a majority undecided voters. For example, McCain/Palin rail on about how Obama hasn't been entirely truthful about Ayers...so, my question would be, how the fuck do they know and if they have something that illuminates that situation, they should present it instead of insinuating it. Seems to me that this could be chalked up as a reprise of McCain's claim that he knows how to catch Osama Bin-Laden without giving any details about how he'd do it...more campaign bluster than actual know-how.

The point is, the same could be said for each of these politicians and their claims of the past. The idea that one has the monopoly on "coming clean" is ridiculous because it's impossible to truly know. These are politicians and their paths cross and circles do overlap with all kinds of people, sketchy or no. McCain has his assocations with G. Gordon Liddy, Jerry Falwell (why makes Rev. Wright look like Pope John Paul II), and Charles Keating. These associations are unavoidable but, to me, what's important is how these associations have affacted or shaped their policy.

Lastly, I agree that these politicians should do more press conferences, or at least make their debates less bullshit. However, Obama went through a primary that included many articles, interviews, and real debates (as did Mccain) and so the idea that information doesn't exist on him just because his opponents cherrypick a few associations and all of a sudden say, "What's up with that?" doesn't really hold water. Palin is getting harder questions at this point, albeit not directly, because she was not a part of that primary process.

I agree. McCain and Palin constantly say "Obama hasn't told the whole truth about Ayers". Well, if that is the case, why don't they tell us what that whole truth is? Wouldn't that significantly help their chances of winning? If there was anything substantial actually there (and which hadn't already been adressed) do you really think they would sit on it to their own detriment? Hardly.

The fact of the matter is that the idea of the monster hiding behind the door is always more frightening than when you actually see it. So the insinuations continue, because that's all there is to the story.

[Archangel]

Classy.

[Deadhead Derek]

FYI:

Project Vote recommends if any voter has a problem, they should immediately call 1-866-OURVOTE (1-866-687-8683). Project Vote is a national nonpartisan, nonprofit organization that promotes voting in historically underrepresented communities. Project Vote takes a leadership role in nationwide voting rights and election administration issues, working through research, legal services, and advocacy to ensure that our constituencies are not prevented from registering and voting.
Web site: http://www.projectvote.org/

[Desperado]

Former Reagan adviser endorses Obama (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/31/former-reagan-adviser-endorses-obama/)
Posted: 01:35 PM ET

From CNN's Adam Levy (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/tag/cnns-adam-levy/)
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/10/31/ken-duberstein.jpg Duberstein is pulling for Obama.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif

(CNN) — Former Reagan chief of staff Ken Duberstein told CNN's Fareed Zakaria this week he intends to vote for Democrat Barack Obama on Tuesday.
Duberstein said he was influenced by another prominent Reagan official - Colin Powell - in his decision.
"Well let's put it this way - I think Colin Powell's decision is in fact the good housekeeping seal of approval on Barack Obama."
Powell served as national security advisor to Reagan during Duberstein's tenure as chief of staff.
Duberstein spoke with Zakaria about his final days in the Reagan White House. The Reagan official, along with Clinton Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and Carter National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski, also discussed the transition process to a new administration.
Watch the full discussion on the next administration this Sunday at 1 p.m. on Fareed Zakaria GPS.

[URFloorMatt]

obama is ambitious as all politicians are, and he met with and got money from and hosted coming-out parties, and kissed ass like all of them do...and some of those people he did that with are more than a little sketchy. but if you ask him about it he just wants to talk about the future. excuse us, but just because you expound great plans does not mean you get a free pass.

Yes, but Democrats get held to a double standard. Who's a more dangerous person: Rev. Wright or Pat Robertson? I'd wholeheartedly say the latter, but Republicans have been sucking up to Robertson for over a decade and no one ever bats an eye.

Wright said "God damn America" because of our behavior in Iraq. Pat Robertson said the same thing in so many words when Katrina happened because Lousiana has a gay community. Same thing regarding Sept. 11. They're both zealots. They're both hateful. They're both idiots. One of them got crucified for it. The other one got his own law school and television program out of it.

[Yelram]

Yes, but Democrats get held to a double standard. Who's a more dangerous person: Rev. Wright or Pat Robertson? I'd wholeheartedly say the latter, but Republicans have been sucking up to Robertson for over a decade and no one ever bats an eye.

Wright said "God damn America" because of our behavior in Iraq. Pat Robertson said the same thing in so many words when Katrina happened because Lousiana has a gay community. Same thing regarding Sept. 11. They're both zealots. They're both hateful. They're both idiots. One of them got crucified for it. The other one got his own law school and television program out of it.

Again, woefully inept, and uninformed. His speech about God Damn America was given the sunday AFTER 9/11!!, and I dont know how your timeline works here, but i'm pretty sure it went, 9/11...Afghanistan... Iraq. So he was blaming 9/11 on us SUPPORTING ISRAEL.. Mccain did not go to Pat Robertsons church for 20 years dipshit. Pat Robertson did not MARRY the Mccains, He didnt BAPTIZE his children, and he doesnt have him as a SPIRITUAL ADVISOR. God, ever heard of Moral relativism???

Democrats held to a higher standard? Do you even follow politics? Seriously. Ever heard of Barney Frank? He was running a gay prostitution ring out of his basement, AND HE'S STILL IN POWER.

[URFloorMatt]

Again, woefully inept, and uninformed. His speech about God Damn America was given the sunday AFTER 9/11!!, and I dont know how your timeline works here, but i'm pretty sure it went, 9/11...Afghanistan... Iraq. So he was blaming 9/11 on us SUPPORTING ISRAEL.. Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4443788

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people," he said in a 2003 sermon. "God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

Here's what he said after September 11:

In addition to damning America, he told his congregation on the Sunday after Sept. 11, 2001 that the United States had brought on al Qaeda's attacks because of its own terrorism.

"We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," Rev. Wright said in a sermon on Sept. 16, 2001.

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost," he told his congregation.Admittedly, I was wrong about his speech being about Iraq, though I'd wager that came up somewhere in his 2003 sermon. But his post-Sept. 11 sermon seems clearly aimed at foreign policy decisions. Let's see, which is more reasonable? Blaming 9/11 on our foreign policy, or blaming 9/11 on "the gays." Moral relativism indeed.

As for when he gave the speech, didn't I just say that Robertson blamed 9/11 on gays? Didn't I just say that? When do you think he made those comments? Hint: It was Sept. 13.

Mccain did not go to Pat Robertsons church for 20 years dipshit. Pat Robertson did not MARRY the Mccains, He didnt BAPTIZE his children, and he doesnt have him as a SPIRITUAL ADVISOR. God, ever heard of Moral relativism???

My post had nothing to do with McCain and Obama or the men who support them. My post was about the socially accepted view of Wright versus Robertson. The mainstream opinion is that Wright is a violent militant while the mainstream opinion of Robertson is, at worst, that he's a little "quirky."

[Rover]

The Governator just tore Obama up on CNN at a McCain rally. He made a really strong case for McCain. No YouTube of it obviously, but it was a strong speech.

I can't help but like Schwarzenegger, even though I disagree with a lot of his policies.

[taters]

My post had nothing to do with McCain and Obama or the men who support them. My post was about the socially accepted view of Wright versus Robertson. The mainstream opinion is that Wright is a violent militant while the mainstream opinion of Robertson is, at worst, that he's a little "quirky."

Welcome to black america's double standard. Black guy (Wright) or Native American (Ward Churchill) says something lightly inflamatory but historically accurate about this country, hes a dangerous racist militant.

White guys like Limbaugh, Savage, Bennett or James Baker make racist comments ranging everything from advocating black genocide in the country to claiming the white racist is superior to blacks and natives, and they are seen as 'likable and quirky' or 'real american and strongly christan valued'. This isnt new to our country.

[Gary_Busey]

To lighten things up a little in this thread.

Hear Me, Barack Obama Supporters! Here's How To Stay Sane Until Election Day
Daniel Chun is a writer for “The Simpsons.”

Is the election driving you crazy? Are you losing sleep over the fact that the awesomest guy ever might lose the presidency to a grumpy old jerk? Well, the waiting is the hardest part, and you only have to wait four more days. Here’s how to make it through the homestretch without losing your mind.

1. Learn how to read polls correctly: Too many people live and die by the fluctuations of polls, which are inherently imperfect. Here’s how to read polls. If the results are good (http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/10/30/today-s-polls-no-it-s-still-not-tightening.aspx), that means Obama’s winning. If the numbers look bad (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,445347,00.html), that means the poll is a piece of shit and the pollster is a Republican. To make this point to others, make sure to say the phrase “highly suspect internals” a lot. If someone asks you what that means, call them a racist.

2. Convince yourself that more of the same is okay: After all, a lot of good came out of the last eight years: Will Ferrell came into his own as a leading man. Kevin Garnett won a title. Hot dogs stayed delicious. Internet porn got awesome.

3. Get really into a hobby for the next four days: Something so fun, so wonderful, and so engrossing that you’ll completely forget about the election. Yes, I’m talking about cross-stitching.

4. Avoid political discussions: Sure, it’s not totally up to you. Someone could walk up and start talking about politics. That’s why you distract them by wearing one of those Rastafarian wigs. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised at how much of the would-be political conversation gives way to loud ridicule and name-calling.

5. Take a whole bunch of sleeping pills and don’t wake up until Tuesday. Sleeping pills are dangerous, so you have to make sure to take the exact right amount. Here’s how--swallow as many pills as you can until you feel yourself dying. Then just vomit lightly and you should be all set.

6. Forget politics and remember what really matters: A child’s smile. The crisp air after a rain shower. The smell of freshly-baked cookies. Music spilling onto the street from a rooftop party. Only some of those things would be outlawed by President Palin.

And finally...

7. Remember that Obama’s already got this thing wrapped up: Thanks to a little thing called voter fraud from our friends at ACORN! Ha ha ha, you Republican fools! This race will be decided by the likes of “Mickey Mouse” and “Tony Romo”! You neglected the ACORN, and it grew into a mighty oak of corruption! Try again nex--wait, what? Voter registration fraud isn’t the same (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/27/us/politics/27vote.html?hp=&pagewanted=print) as voter fraud? Mickey Mouse can’t vote? Oh God, we’re screwed. Everyone panic.

--Daniel Chun

[CrazyCarl]

internet porn did get really awesome in the past 8 years

[BIG PIZZLE]

How big are the samples in all these polls?

[Gary_Busey]

6.

[heelsguy]

well, I totally agree with her. she has just as much right to ask questions about Obama's allegiances and associations as anyone. what? she is suppose to ONLY talk about her ticket's campaign plans? if she did that NO media except Fox would be raising these questions. those same people on these boards who get on their soap boxes defending free speech are criticising her for exercising hers. WTF?

[Gary_Busey]

I believe she's the one that brought up free speech. No one's trying to deny her her right to free speech. It's funny that she mentions it though, given that it was written to protect the media from the government, not the government from the media.

[Gary_Busey]

Wow, I just saw a McCain ad that was probably the most misleading of them all. Some guy talking about "people like Obama don't know what it's like to pay of a light bill before the electricity shuts off" or something. Then it went on to say Obama will raise taxes. Do people even read each candidate's tax plans?

[Deadhead Derek]

Micheal Moore is babbling on Olbermann. He just said something about how people would try more things, and be "happy" in their jobs if Obama's health plan is put in place. OK, so sunshine MAY flow outta some politicians asses, but WTF? I have been self employed for the better part of 30 years. I never stopped doing what I love for a job with a benefit. those who do are just fucking pussies, and NOT what America is built upon.
I have enjoyed reading Moore, but what a load of shit that was.
#1. People who go to work for any boss other than themselves doesn't deserve to be happy, just do their job or be replaced with one of the hundreds of thousands out of work who will.
#2 union are done. we will charge more, and be pissy if you don't respect us. fuck that. do it, do it better than the others at a fair price= getting the job.
#3 Billy Mayes really irks me. and i bet he has health care. I went to the doctor
( urgent care for stitches, first time to a doctor in years and years) BUT I Pay for my own healthcare.

[Gary_Busey]

Michael Moore is a Moore-on. HAHAHAH GET IT!?!??!

[Pollo]

he was also on Bill Maher saying the same shit today (plus more), and of course Maher agreed religiously with what he said.

[Gary_Busey]

I can't stand that motherfucker. He's not even funny.

[taters]

#2 union are done. we will charge more, and be pissy if you don't respect us.

I would say its more "we demand more pay, and reasonable benefits, and will strike if you do not do so".

The answer to that? "Well move your jobs overseas".

The result = More Americans without jobs, cheaper goods for people without jobs to buy those goods (so no one buys anything, as being seen in our market today), and the shittiest service ever (as seen by anyone who has a cell phone and ever called in over a complaint or fuck up in their bill).


When will people realize its not the Job the defines the worth of the worker, its the worker that defines the worth of the job?

Cheaper goods mean nothing to those who cant afford them, or must decide between them and more important shit (like healthcare or gas). Especially in modern america, where the only shit we make anymorw is trendy but useless (in terms of worth to everyday life) gadgets no one really needs anyway.

[Soup Nazi]

Just an interesting little story:


WASHINGTON - Barack Obama's aunt, a Kenyan woman who has been quietly living in public housing in Boston, is in the United States illegally after an immigration judge rejected her request for asylum four years ago, The Associated Press has learned.
Zeituni Onyango, 56, referred to as "Aunti Zeituni" in Obama's memoir, was instructed to leave the United States by a U.S. immigration judge who denied her asylum request, a person familiar with the matter told the AP late Friday. This person spoke on condition of anonymity because no one was authorized to discuss Onyango's case.

Information about the deportation case was disclosed and confirmed by two separate sources, one of them a federal law enforcment official. The information they made available is known to officials in the federal government, but the AP could not establish whether anyone at a political level in the Bush administration or in the McCain campaign had been involved in its release.

Onyango's refusal to leave the country would represent an administrative, non-criminal violation of U.S. immigration law, meaning such cases are handled outside the criminal court system. Estimates vary, but many experts believe there are more than 10 million such immigrants in the United States.


Personally, I don't care and I have already voted for the guy, but I still thought it was an interesting story. Could be more interesting if there was any confirmation or denial that Obama knew she was living here illegally OR if the info was released by the Bush administration or the McCain campaign.

[Pollo]

I can't stand that motherfucker. He's not even funny.

I know Maher kids himself all the time with the countless number of blows he takes at McCain/Palin, but some of his jokes are downright brutal that make you think listening to Carrot Top's jokes aren't so bad on second thought.

[heelsguy]

lib's are over-reaching with the palin shots. it is getting as tired as making a "Richard Simmons is gay" joke. the worst was Thursday night when MSNBC (MSN barack C) oberlmann's "worst person in the world" was palin. her crime? while in Pennsylvania on Thursday, she said "I am happy to be in the home state of the world series champs!" her offense? because she made that statement in western PA and not in eastern PA, olbermann said she made a stupid mistake and next time should have studied up more on pennsylvania sports....I mean, seriously: WHAT THE FUCK? It is getting ridiculous how much hate people invent reasons for.

[Archangel]

Yeah, like anyone stopped ragging on Yeltsin for being a lush.


She wants to be out there, she's fair game. Until Obama says some foolishness along the likes of how he knows the economy because he has a checking account, people are gonna focus on her putting her foot in her mouth every time she opens the latter.
She's a fucking laughing stock, and anyone who denies that becomes one by association.

[kid_vidrio]

Yeah, like anyone stopped ragging on Yeltsin for being a lush.


She wants to be out there, she's fair game. Until Obama says some foolishness along the likes of how he knows the economy because he has a checking account, people are gonna focus on her putting her foot in her mouth every time she opens the latter.
She's a fucking laughing stock, and anyone who denies that becomes one by association.
you're violating her right to free speech!

[Hobnail_Boot]

I can't stand that motherfucker. He's not even funny.
Me neither--every since my 9th grade economics teacher forced us to watch "Roger and Me" during class.
lib's are over-reaching with the palin shots. it is getting as tired as making a "Richard Simmons is gay" joke. the worst was Thursday night when MSNBC (MSN barack C) oberlmann's "worst person in the world" was palin. her crime? while in Pennsylvania on Thursday, she said "I am happy to be in the home state of the world series champs!" her offense? because she made that statement in western PA and not in eastern PA, olbermann said she made a stupid mistake and next time should have studied up more on pennsylvania sports....I mean, seriously: WHAT THE FUCK? It is getting ridiculous how much hate people invent reasons for.
I wouldn't take stuff like that so seriously.

[Rover]

CHICAGO (AP) - Democrat Barack Obama got annoyed with the media Friday as he tried to walk down a Chicago street with his 7-year-old daughter, Sasha, who was dressed up in a shiny costume for Halloween.

A pool of national photographers, reporters and a video crew traveling with Obama quickly covered the spontaneous moment.
"All right guys, that's enough," said Obama, wearing a casual outfit and sunglasses in the early evening.
He and his daughter were walking right toward the media on a public street.
"You got a shot," he told the photographers. "Leave us alone. Come on, guys."
He told the media to get back on the bus, referring to the vehicle where the traveling press pool often waits for him.
Obama then crossed the street with Sasha. At least one video cameraman who was not part of Obama's traveling press corps followed him for a while. Obama grew visibly irritated.
He and his daughter then began jogging, and even running, to get away from the media.
They ended up out of sight at a friend's house, where they were headed all along. In a final dash for the presidency, Obama stopped into Chicago specifically to spend some time on Halloween with his family, including his other daughter, Malia, who is 10.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D945ORIO1&show_article=1
I like that Obama got upset about how the reporters were covering a staged photo op. I also like that he thinks he can command the press to get back on the bus, and to stop covering him in a public area.

I also like that the AP story refers to a clear photo op as a "spontaneous moment."

[Hobnail_Boot]

I like that Obama got upset about how the reporters were covering a staged photo op. I also like that he thinks he can command the press to get back on the bus, and to stop covering him in a public area.

I also like that the AP story refers to a clear photo op as a "spontaneous moment."
Sure, the event wasn't "spontaneous" because he planned to got trick-or-treating with his daughter all along. However, I don't believe Obama was angling for a "photo op" with his daughter. It was probably just a father wanting to spend some time with his daughter.

Mind you, I do not have a problem with Obama getting annoyed with the coverage nor with the media wanting to cover the "event."

[URFloorMatt]

I like that Obama got upset about how the reporters were covering a staged photo op. I also like that he thinks he can command the press to get back on the bus, and to stop covering him in a public area.

I also like that the AP story refers to a clear photo op as a "spontaneous moment."

You would prefer that he not trick or treat with his kids? WTF was he supposed to do?

My guess is it's pretty hard to hide from the press when you're walking door to door in your families' neighborhood on an obvious night like Halloween.

[Yelram]

Yeah, like anyone stopped ragging on Yeltsin for being a lush.


She wants to be out there, she's fair game. Until Obama says some foolishness along the likes of how he knows the economy because he has a checking account, people are gonna focus on her putting her foot in her mouth every time she opens the latter.
She's a fucking laughing stock, and anyone who denies that becomes one by association.

You mean like saying the wrong number of states? Or how about this one..

http://videosift.com/video/Clinton-Obama-Asked-Me-To-Tell-Him-What-To-Do-About-Economy

"Tell me what is right, not whats popular, and i'll find out a way to sell it"

[heelsguy]

You mean like saying the wrong number of states? Or how about this one..

http://videosift.com/video/Clinton-Obama-Asked-Me-To-Tell-Him-What-To-Do-About-Economy

"Tell me what is right, not whats popular, and i'll find out a way to sell it"

beautiful....absolutely beautiful. they deserve each other.

[Yelram]

beautiful....absolutely beautiful. they deserve each other.

Heres another one Arch, I guess Obama must be one of those stupid Americans that believes the US liberated Auschwitz.

D36OHolrdOg

[BIG PIZZLE]

Sarah Palin gets punked but Canadian radio. They make her think it's Nicolas Sarkozy. This is kinda mean.
JV_IphAIGPg

[dadaelus]

Bwahahahahahahaha! Wish the guy had done a bad Maurice Chevalier impersonation.

[heelsguy]

palin's team should have verified this first but than again, unlike john candy and jon stewart, these canadian clowns were not that funny.

I will say that the people running the mccain palin campaign need to be taken out back and shot. I can hardly imagine a worse-run campaign. well, maybe gary hart in 1988.

[Archangel]

Wow, the guy's French accent is about as convincing as my Scottish brogue. That someone would even fall for this...

[Archangel]

I could probably call Mrs Palin, say "Allah" a lot, and convince her that I was Osama bin Laden.


Only thing is that in the unlikely event that McCain should win, Germany would get bombed.

[Hanover Fist]

Wow, the guy's French accent is about as convincing as my Scottish brogue. That someone would even fall for this...

These guys are French Canadian you know, so I'm reasonably sure that they have authentic accents. Now if you're saying she should know the difference between French Canadian and regular old faggy French, hell I doubt I could tell the difference.

[taters]

lib's are over-reaching with the palin shots. it is getting as tired as making a "Richard Simmons is gay" joke. the worst was Thursday night when MSNBC (MSN barack C) oberlmann's "worst person in the world" was palin. her crime? while in Pennsylvania on Thursday, she said "I am happy to be in the home state of the world series champs!" her offense? because she made that statement in western PA and not in eastern PA, olbermann said she made a stupid mistake and next time should have studied up more on pennsylvania sports....I mean, seriously: WHAT THE FUCK? It is getting ridiculous how much hate people invent reasons for.

I think that was because the team that won was from eastern pa, and that side supports Obama. Shes giving and taking credit where none was due or owed.


All that being said, you cant blame people for mocking McCain and Palin. They've made asses of themselves. If they hadnt run such a shoddy campaign, people would feel bad laughing. Unfortunately, they have much such huge asses of themselves, as have their supporters, it would be stupid not bringing their ridicule to light.

Ironically enough, the only people not laughing are their supporters, who in a half hearted way contributed just as much to all their (McCain Palin) fuckups.

Most ironically is any conservative talking about 'invented hate', when their side is out claiming Obama is a terrorist because he served on a community board with some 60s radical, who was not active at the time, or he is a socialist because he speaks of 'spreading wealth' when McCain voted for the same 'socialist' shit hes talking about, or that hes muslim because...well because honestly his name does not sound american, or that hes a 'black militant' because...well because hes an educated, well spoken black person, something deathly threatening to a few whites on the right.

The right is 'inventing' shit right out of their ass in their desperation to come up with something that sticks and makes sense. Every week its been something new.

[Feng]

Sarah Palin gets punked but Canadian radio. They make her think it's Nicolas Sarkozy. This is kinda mean.
JV_IphAIGPg

Awesome!!

[Archangel]

These guys are French Canadian you know, so I'm reasonably sure that they have authentic accents. Now if you're saying she should know the difference between French Canadian and regular old faggy French, hell I doubt I could tell the difference.

Canadian French sounds as much like French French as Argentinian Spanish sounds like actual Castilian.

[Hanover Fist]

Canadian French sounds as much like French French as Argentinian Spanish sounds like actual Castilian.

Yeah well I seriously doubt 95% of Americans could tell the difference or care for that matter. It all sounds gay to us.

[Rover]

Take your language elitism to the eurofag thread!

[Archangel]

We have a Eurofag thread?

[URFloorMatt]

These guys are French Canadian you know, so I'm reasonably sure that they have authentic accents. Now if you're saying she should know the difference between French Canadian and regular old faggy French, hell I doubt I could tell the difference.

Accents are one thing; this is another:

FNS: I must say, Governor Palin, I love the documentary they made on your life, you know, Hustler’s "Nailin Palin."

SP: Oh, good, thank you. Yes.

FNS: That was really edgy.

SP: Well, good.

[heelsguy]

Accents are one thing; this is another:

give me a break. they sounded like pepe 'le pew from the old cartoons. who could tell what the fuck they were saying? she was just being polite. all of this piling on might just come back to haunt folks on election day. many people are frontrunners, but just as many people like underdogs.

ask mark richt of georgia if he now wishes he had not done last year's planned celebration against the gators: florida had extra incentive yesterday

[Deadhead Derek]

Rev. Wright commercial just aired..weak, and for McCain, way too little too late.

[heelsguy]

http://journalism.org/files/u29/1lead.png


http://journalism.org/node/13436

fox news is fairer to both candidates

[Yelram]

http://journalism.org/files/u29/1lead.png


http://journalism.org/node/13436

fox news is fairer to both candidates

Hey now, stick to the playbook, Fox news is nothing but a republican attack machine, and MSNBC is real journalists and stuff....

[heelsguy]

Hey now, stick to the playbook, Fox news is nothing but a republican attack machine, and MSNBC is real journalists and stuff....



shhhh! don't make waves around here!

there is a reason why fox kicks every other cable news network": only dems tune into msnbc to hear more of what they already believe. whereas BOTH sides tune into foxnews to hear actual debate....hence twice the viewership.

[Stax]

No one here believes MSNBC is fair. But suggesting Fox is fair is just as retarded the other way.

[Pax Britannia]

At least you guys have Fox News to give a right/centre right view of things. All the news networks over here are unashamedly liberal.

[Hobnail_Boot]

ask mark richt of georgia if he now wishes he had not done last year's planned celebration against the gators: florida had extra incentive yesterday
Fuck that. I'm still glad Georgia celebrated on the field last year.

[BusterPortugal]

Interesting...

On the evening newscasts of the three traditional networks, in contrast, there is no such ideological split. Indeed, on the nightly newscasts of ABC, CBS and NBC, coverage tends to be more neutral and generally less negative than elsewhere

At night, the newscasts of the three traditional broadcast networks stood out for being more neutral

What happened to the overwhelming liberal media bias that all news organizations except Fox is guilty of?


fox news is fairer to both candidates
Stop it. That's a ridiculous conclusion. You cannot compare fairness using the data in that chart for 2 different individuals.

[Claydon]

At least you guys have Fox News to give a right/centre right view of things. All the news networks over here are unashamedly liberal.


The hell you say, BBC 1 is a fine example of unbiased media presentation.

[Pax Britannia]

The hell you say, BBC 1 is a fine example of unbiased media presentation.

You obviously havent been watching much BBC News. Anyone right wing or (shock horror) Isreali is treated with absolute contempt.

The BBC even admitted that it IS biased last year. It justified this by saying its a by-product of hiring so many young liberals from ethnic minorities.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-411846/We-biased-admit-stars-BBC-News.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6763205.stm

The former political editor of the BBC said the corportation has an "innate liberal bias".

[Stax]

From a couple of days ago, lulz.

http://mccainsevendays.ytmnd.com/

[Debo]

Can any of you explain to me what a civilian national security force is? I realize that the National Guard is part of the military, but isn't their job to defend to homeland and to keep the peace on a national level?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

Also, Obama's plan for a cap-and-trade carbon market is quite telling. With coal being one of the most available and cheapest forms of energy out there, I find it disturbing that he wants to use a government imposed cap-and-trade system to move us away from coal when a cheaper option does not exist. Toss in his vague stance on nuclear power and everything gets even more confusing.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/11/02/hidden-audio-obama-tells-sf-chronicle-he-will-bankrupt-coal-industry

I wonder if his coal comments will hurt him in CO, VA and WV (I can't seem him being competitive in KY, UT and MT so I left them off).

[taters]

http://journalism.org/files/u29/1lead.png


http://journalism.org/node/13436

fox news is fairer to both candidates

That doesnt prove fox is fairer (which is fucking CRAZY if you believe that). All it proves is Fox VIEWERS do not hold see candidates in such drastic contrasts as other networks.

You cant take the end set of a poll and use it as an identifier of the beginning. Its like saying "a poll shows more people eat McDonalds than any other fast food, therefore McDonalds has the best service".

example-

CABLE NEWS BELIEVABILITY

http://www.stateofthemedia.com/2005/images/narrative_charts/cabletv/pub_b.jpg

Does that mean that the networks lie about the less believable news from the respective lesser believed wing? No. It means the viewers make the call on what they believe. Nothing else.

[Feng]

I'd better start watching MSNBC...

[Soup Nazi]

http://journalism.org/files/u29/1lead.png


http://journalism.org/node/13436

fox news is fairer to both candidates

Is this just their news coverage, or does it also include their pundit shows like O'Reilly, Hannity/Colmes, etc? Because I have always thought that Fox's actual news coverage was not that bias either way, but when it came to pundit shows, they had an overwhelmingly high conservative to liberal bias.

But overall, I will be honest, I don't really care what biases networks have. Thats the beauty of "freedom of the press", they can pretty much say what ever they want as long as it does not border the criminal.

[URFloorMatt]

there is a reason why fox kicks every other cable news network": only dems tune into msnbc to hear more of what they already believe. whereas BOTH sides tune into foxnews to hear actual debate....hence twice the viewership.

Hahahahaha, no. The greatest lie ever perpetuated by Fox News (aside from "Fair and Balanced") is that it kills in the ratings. It doesn't. It kills in total viewers because Fox News has a small country's worth of viewers over 70 watching at any given time.

In the demo (25-54 year olds), however, Fox News loses to its competitors with increasing frequency. Crazy man Olbermann, for instance, has beaten O'Reilly in the demo six of the last twelve days. Rachel Maddow is also a strong competitor to H&C and has already toppled Larry King on occasion.

One of the reasons Republicans are getting killed this election is because they subscribe to a false reality. Republican perception of Fox News provides a useful microcosm for the problems that the party faces on a broad scale.

[freegood]

http://journalism.org/files/u29/1lead.png


http://journalism.org/node/13436

fox news is fairer to both candidates

Did you read the article that accompanied the colorful looking graph?

[Archangel]

Reading is for élitist coastal lib'rals.

[heelsguy]

No one here believes MSNBC is fair. But suggesting Fox is fair is just as retarded the other way.

why? in this one regard, Pew Research says they were balanced. I did not mean Fox news as a whole is balanced, because it certainly is pro-repub. but as far as election stories, they apparently are fair.

[taters]

why? in this one regard, Pew Research says they were balanced. I did not mean Fox news as a whole is balanced, because it certainly is pro-repub. but as far as election stories, they apparently are fair.

:Cough Cough:

Ashley Todd Story

:Cough Cough:

[Whiffleball]

I don't think anyone can deny that MSNBC has fully transformed into MSDNC what with Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow and so forth. They used to be walking the line between becoming the left-wing version of FOX News but it now seems they have fully embraced that role. Perhaps they assume that they can't compete with the other 24 hour news channels by being strictly news, so they'll follow the FOX News formula and become a propaganda network for the other side of the political spectrum.

Honestly I think that McCain has drawn more negative coverage for reasons that are both his own fault and coincidental. He simply hasn't run a very good campaign, from picking a VP candidate that is now widely considered a joke, his spokesman saying to the press outright that if they kept talking about the economy they would lose, attacking Obama's character instead of focusing on the issues, etc. Speaking of the economy, the recent crisis has driven news coverage in that direction, and obviously Obama was going to do better on that front than the Republican candidate. Obama, by contrast, has run a far more steady and issues-focused campaign and has been helped by the state of the economy.

You also have to look at how they conducted this study and things such as when someone is being "positive", "negative" or "neutral" is rather subjective.

Nighttime CNN - coded 3 out of the 4 every day
Situation Room (6 pm)
Lou Dobbs Tonight
CNN Election Center
Anderson Cooper 360

Nighttime Fox News - coded 3 out of the 4 every day
Special Report w/ Brit Hume
Fox Report w/ Shepard Smith
O'Reilly Factor
Hannity & Colmes

Nighttime MSNBC - coded 2 out of the 4 every day
Race for the White House
Hardball (7 pm)
Countdown w/ Keith Olbermann
Rachel Maddow

Not only did they watch 2 MSNBC shows for every 3 CNN and FOX shows, you have to take into consideration that they were watching different shows on different days and therefore different news events on different days. Granted, this study could probably not be done as an exact science, but you have to take it with a grain of salt given these things.

There is no denying that objective journalism has taken a backseat to partisan punditry. I mean, look at those shows... Rachel Maddow, Olbermann, Hannity, O'Reilly, even that crazy fucker Lou Dobbs... Are those even really new shows? That's four dudes and a lesbian commenting on the news from their points of view.

[taters]

MSNBC does now cater to the left. In all fairness, it did so because it realized the solid steady viewers that FOX achieved by catering and biasing their reports solely to the right. Fox had a lock on the right, and the left was left without a news network to watch (since CNN has started drifting to the right to drain off a few fox viewers). MSNBC capitolized on the viewer market

Its not about ideology, its about gaining viewers. And, if you look at Fox and MSNBC, and the fact that they battle back and forth in ratings gains and supremacy each night, you can see that game works.

[Whiffleball]

Can any of you explain to me what a civilian national security force is? I realize that the National Guard is part of the military, but isn't their job to defend to homeland and to keep the peace on a national level?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

I really don't think he's setting up an actual Civilian National Security Force as some of the right-wing libertarian nutjobs think; there won't be a Revolutionary Guard running around cracking heads, forcing a computer chip into the back of your head, marked with the number of the beast -- 666! I know that isn't what you're saying, but that's generally been the response you get when you Google that part of his speech.

He didn't actually say anything about establishing a new agency and if he did, I really think he would have developed that a lot more in that speech or eventually elsewhere. What he said was:

“We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set,” he said Wednesday. “We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded.”

So what did he mean? I really think he meant our already existing security agencies outside the military, such as the FBI, the CIA, INS, Homeland Security, etc. There are lots of agencies that are staffed not by military personnel but by "civilians".

Really, though, that's just speculation and who knows what exactly he'll do? Increasing public service is as old Democratic hat as you can get, from FDR's multiple agencies, Kennedy's Peace Corps, Clinton's AmeriCorps, etc.

Also, Obama's plan for a cap-and-trade carbon market is quite telling. With coal being one of the most available and cheapest forms of energy out there, I find it disturbing that he wants to use a government imposed cap-and-trade system to move us away from coal when a cheaper option does not exist. Toss in his vague stance on nuclear power and everything gets even more confusing.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2008/11/02/hidden-audio-obama-tells-sf-chronicle-he-will-bankrupt-coal-industry

I wonder if his coal comments will hurt him in CO, VA and WV (I can't seem him being competitive in KY, UT and MT so I left them off).

I'd really like to point out that McCain also has a cap-and-trade policy of his own. http://www.johnmccain.com/informing/news/pressreleases/1f8b2869-689e-4e79-bfb4-c20cf1a47297.htm

Both Obama's and McCain's plans would require substantial time and resources to execute and there is really no evidence that cap-and-trade is all that effective. Look at the relative lack of success in Europe. I honestly think there would be better ways of decreasing greenhouse gases.

I also think that McCain is the more vague one. Largely his speeches on energy seem to be "Drill, baby, drill!" and the expansion of nuclear power. Offshore drilling will be too little, too late as it will be 20 years before we see any effect and it will not be enough to affect gasoline prices in a signifcant fashion.

Building new nuclear plants will be extremely costly, much more so than pursuing solar or wind energy production. Moreover, we cannot build nuclear power plants fast enough to satisfy demand. Of course, there is also the issue of disposing of dangerous toxic waste, which costs a pretty penny as well. All in all, given the state of the economy and the need for more immediate action, building more nuclear power plants is not the solution.

Obama on the other hand is very comprehensive and concrete with his energy proposals. He wants to pursue the cheapest and most efficienct clean energy methods, such as solar and wind power. Granted, there will be challenges in distributing a new form of power, but it can be done and it is preferable to the alternative of relying on traditional resources.

Obama calls for replacing 25% of U.S. electricity with clean renewable energy by 2025, and a yearly investment of $15 billion dollars over the next decade devoted to developing clean renewable energy, biofuels, energy efficiency, and other clean technologies. He places a high priority on greatly increasing fuel economy standards.

Yes, he has kept one foot in the door for nuclear power, but if he didn't, people would have accused him of doctrinaire and putting himself into a corner. He doesn't like nuclear power but if there is a potential to better utilize it, he's not going to say never.

I don't know how much coverage there will be on coal in those states, but I think both candidates are both pro-coal -- as long as it is in "clean coal". Obama, in his defense, voted to use sales taxes to help reopen closed coal mines and create "incentives to attract new businesses that use coal." In 2001, he voted for legislation that provided $3.5 billion in loan guarantees to construct coal-fired power pants with no means of controlling carbon emissions. In 2003, Obama voted to allow $300 million in bonds for the construction and expansion of coal plants.

If you're going for the retention of pure traditional coal technologies, however, I guess you'd vote for McCain -- if barely.

[Whiffleball]

Hwi0tkwVj0o

[vasili denisov]

http://journalism.org/files/u29/1lead.png
http://journalism.org/node/13436

fox news is fairer to both candidates
I think the missing element in this evaluation is what stories are available during a week as coverage possibilities, and what stories are covered, by how much. Let's suppose during the same week that McCain/Palin did the usual campaign trail thing, evidence was uncovered that Barack and Bill Ayers had built bombs together (as with all things, Obama was very precocious). If McCain and Obama received equally favourable / unfavourable coverage from MSNBC, wouldn't that show an extraordinary liberal slant by MSNBC? Obama, given the nature of the story should (rightly) receive far less favourable coverage; were MSNBC to try and uncover some equivalent story on the McCain side to create a balance, that should rightly be cited as evidence of MSNBC's slant.

Now, this study covers the period of September 8-October 16. Here are events that took place during that period:

-the discovery that Palin had first been in favour of the Bridge to Nowhere before she was against it
-Palin's interview with Charlie Gibson
-Palin's interview with Couric
-McCain suspending campaign in order to help out budget crisis
-budget failing to pass due to insufficient republican votes
-the three debates which polled respondents gave to Obama, and overwhelmingly gave to Biden
-release of troopergate report

In terms of new events, these were very bad weeks for McCain-Palin, arguably these were the weeks when their momentum was lost, and moved to Obama-Biden. Given these circumstances, were Fox more fair than MSNBC, we should see negative coverage of McCain-Palin equal to, or greater, than MSNBC. Instead, the numbers display that Fox is slanted towards McCain-Palin ticket, while MSNBC's stories more accurate reflect the tenor of what is taken place on the campaign trail.

Arguably, when something goes badly for one candidate, there's an obligation to find negative news stories which balance this out in the other candidate, a process encouraged by the rival campaigns; in looking at the events of those weeks, I looked at new information. I view the revelations of the "bridge to nowhere" as a new event; unless there are startling revelations about Tony Rezko or Charles Keating, I don't think the media are under any obligation to bring them up to balance out an event in the other candidate's campaign.

[Limp]

This just in...

OBAMA IS A N*GGER!

[vasili denisov]

bp05cNnsR3I

[kid_vidrio]

In the discussion of who has gotten a 'free pass' from the press, I'm curious how so little has been made of this guy:
http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/38133-mccain-s-spiritual-guide-wants-america-to-destroy-islam

[Yelram]

In the discussion of who has gotten a 'free pass' from the press, I'm curious how so little has been made of this guy:
http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/38133-mccain-s-spiritual-guide-wants-america-to-destroy-islam

Yes, because Islam is peaceful....lather rinse repeat.

[kid_vidrio]

wtf do you know about islam dumbass?
i have been to islamic countries and have muslim friends. they are people who that preacher would have killed, and johnny mac thinks he's swell.
i have a huge problem with that.
you don't, because you're the only one who deserves to live and have an opinion apparently.

[Smokestack]

Op-Chart: How Much Is Your Vote Worth?

This map shows each state re-sized in proportion to the relative influence of the individual voters who live there. The numbers indicate the total delegates to the Electoral College from each state, and how many eligible voters a single delegate from each state represents.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/11/02/opinion/02chart_large.jpg
Source: The United States Election Project at George Mason University.


By SARAH K. COWAN, STEPHEN DOYLE and DREW HEFFRON

[kid_vidrio]

Yes, because Islam is peaceful....lather rinse repeat.
And more on point, tardboy, if 'Rev. Wright' is news, why is this not?

[Yelram]

wtf do you know about islam dumbass?
i have been to islamic countries and have muslim friends. they are people who that preacher would have killed, and johnny mac thinks he's swell.
i have a huge problem with that.
you don't, because you're the only one who deserves to live and have an opinion apparently.

Islam was created as a religion to dominate and subdue people who dont agree with it. Thats great that you have islamic friends. Me too, i've read extensively the writings of Rumi, and many other islamic mystics. I also have many friends who are catholics, and I dont think you'll disagree that Catholicism took hold of Christianity for the purpose of domination. In many parts of the islamic world, right now, Islam is being used as a doctrine of hate against the west, and those of other religious beliefs. There are plenty of Mosques in the US, do you see this guy telling people to go and bomb them? Or to protest them? You need to learn your history there bud. Do you need to see what happened during Muhammeds existence on earth VS Jesus?

Muhammed is a figure much more akin to Genghis Khan than Jesus Christ.

[Stax]

Op-Chart: How Much Is Your Vote Worth?

This map shows each state re-sized in proportion to the relative influence of the individual voters who live there. The numbers indicate the total delegates to the Electoral College from each state, and how many eligible voters a single delegate from each state represents.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/11/02/opinion/02chart_large.jpg
Source: The United States Election Project at George Mason University.


By SARAH K. COWAN, STEPHEN DOYLE and DREW HEFFRON

Yep. This is a combination of the inherant problems with the electoral college (every state gets at least 1 rep and 2 Senators, and districts cannot cross state lines so there will never be PERFECT balance of every district with the same # of people) and the stupider more fixable problem of interstate malapportionment from the dumbass Public Law 62-5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Law_62-5). One of my current professors, Jeffrey Ladewig, actually wrote a nice paper (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=6&fid=1741464&jid=&volumeId=&issueId=&aid=1741456) on this.

He shows that the United States is the only democratic nation with a lower House that so severely underrepresents the people. According to the Cube Root model they put out that pretty nicely models all other nations (they all fall either near the curve or above it) we would have had roughly 655 Congressmen in 2000 (and with a better representative House the EC would come closer to reflecting the popular vote. Under this model Gore would've won 368-364).

[Stax]

Islam was created as a religion to dominate and subdue people who dont agree with it.

That's pretty much what all religions were created to do.

[kid_vidrio]

Islam was created as a religion to dominate and subdue people who dont agree with it. Thats great that you have islamic friends. Me too, i've read extensively the writings of Rumi, and many other islamic mystics. I also have many friends who are catholics, and I dont think you'll disagree that Catholicism took hold of Christianity for the purpose of domination. In many parts of the islamic world, right now, Islam is being used as a doctrine of hate against the west, and those of other religious beliefs. There are plenty of Mosques in the US, do you see this guy telling people to go and bomb them? Or to protest them? You need to learn your history there bud. Do you need to see what happened during Muhammeds existence on earth VS Jesus?

Muhammed is a figure much more akin to Genghis Khan than Jesus Christ.
Therefore it is America's duty to kill all muslims and wipe it out, because of your interpretation?
And why hasn't the press mentioned JM's relationship with this hate monger? Why the free pass?

[Yelram]

Yep. This is a combination of the inherant problems with the electoral college (every state gets at least 1 rep and 2 Senators, and districts cannot cross state lines so there will never be PERFECT balance of every district with the same # of people) and the stupider more fixable problem of interstate malapportionment from the dumbass Public Law 62-5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Law_62-5). One of my current professors, Jeffrey Ladewig, actually wrote a nice paper (http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS6_01%2FS153759270808 0080a.pdf&code=3c05f911eca79f3e1339879b90c07d0c) on this.

He shows that the United States is the only democratic nation with a lower House that so severely underrepresents the people. According to the Cube Root model they put out that pretty nicely models all other nations (they all fall either near the curve or above it) we would have had roughly 655 Congressmen in 2000 (and with a better representative House the EC would come closer to reflecting the popular vote. Under this model Gore would've won 368-364).

That shows a lack of understanding of the purpose of the electoral college. The point is to prevent the tyranny of population centers from effecting land owners in other parts of the country. STATES ARE IMPORTANT. You seem to think a state is worth nothing but the number of individuals voting in it. I am not exactly interested in COPYING the Electoral process from any other nation.

[Stax]

That shows a lack of understanding of the purpose of the electoral college. The point is to prevent the tyranny of population centers from effecting land owners in other parts of the country. STATES ARE IMPORTANT. You seem to think a state is worth nothing but the number of individuals voting in it. I am not exactly interested in COPYING the Electoral process from any other nation.

Way to not read before you respond, Yelram. Public Law 62-5 was passed more than a century after the electoral college was created. It was not in any way part of the plan of founders for the House to be fixed at 435. No one, not the paper I linked to nor I, is suggesting changing the more institutional forces that ensure that small states have a voice (the 1 House member, 2 Senators bits I mentioned). The issue is with the absolute foolishness and imbalance created by apportioning from a total number of Congressmen (435) fixed based on early 1900s level US population.

[Yelram]

Therefore it is America's duty to kill all muslims and wipe it out, because of your interpretation?
And why hasn't the press mentioned JM's relationship with this hate monger? Why the free pass?

It has nothing to do with my interpretation asshole, it has to do with, oh I dont know, the multiple wars being waged against free people all over the world. If there were Christians wiping out populations of people because they werent Christians, I'd be against that too. Apparently you are too blinded by your own ideology to see whats been going on.

[Yelram]

Way to not read before you respond, Yelram. Public Law 62-5 was passed more than a century after the electoral college was created. It was not in any way part of the plan of founders for the House to be fixed at 435. No one, not the paper I linked to nor I, is suggesting changing the more institutional forces that ensure that small states have a voice (the 1 House member, 2 Senators bits I mentioned). The issue is with the absolute foolishness and imbalance created by apportioning from a total number of Congressmen (435) fixed based on early 1900s level US population.

I'm sorry, I didnt completely read your post. I agree with you entirely. This is the type of stuff I was hoping to fill the "We the people" thread with, but noone wanted to post there for some reason.

[Smokestack]

It has nothing to do with my interpretation asshole, it has to do with, oh I dont know, the multiple wars being waged against free people all over the world. If there were Christians wiping out populations of people because they werent Christians, I'd be against that too. Apparently you are too blinded by your own ideology to see whats been going on.

The holocaust was less than 100 years ago, dipshit. Just because Islam has currently overtaken the mantle of genocide in the name of religion doesn't mean that it holds the monopoly on this. Religion is highly interpretive, so if you get a bunch of fundamentalists and literalists using it to wage war, this kind of thing will happen. It doesn't mean the one particular religion is particularly susceptable to it. Remember that the main reason evangelicals are all of a sudden so pro-Israel is the End of Days, which means the extinction of the Jews.

[kid_vidrio]

It has nothing to do with my interpretation asshole, it has to do with, oh I dont know, the multiple wars being waged against free people all over the world. If there were Christians wiping out populations of people because they werent Christians, I'd be against that too. Apparently you are too blinded by your own ideology to see whats been going on.
like for example in Bosnia or Kosovo? oh, wait.

[Yelram]

The holocaust was less than 100 years ago, dipshit. Just because Islam has currently overtaken the mantle of genocide in the name of religion doesn't mean that it holds the monopoly on this. Religion is highly interpretive, so if you get a bunch of fundamentalists and literalists using it to wage war, this kind of thing will happen. It doesn't mean the one particular religion is particularly susceptable to it.

Have you ever read the Koran? Or the History of Islam?

[Pax Britannia]

like for example in Bosnia or Kosovo? oh, wait.

To be fair Muslims have been doing their fair share of killings in the Balklans for centuries.

[Yelram]

To be fair Muslims have been doing their fair share of killings in the Balklans for centuries.
SHHHH, religion of peace, peaceful means quiet, so you better shut up or else!!!

[kid_vidrio]

To be fair Muslims have been doing their fair share of killings in the Balklans for centuries.
Agreed.
My point to him was that it happens both directions. There is no moral high ground where genocide is concerned. Radicals of any cause pose a threat to civilization.
I'd further that by saying that the bulk of Islam doesn't subscribe the violent spread of their religion.
Still, as Arch will point out, if only 10% of a billion are on board, that makes for 100,000,000 angry folk out there.

[Morfin]

My initial thought was to chide you all for hijacking this Election thread to talk about Muslims. But then I remembered that Obama is a Muslim.

Carry on.

[VoxAngelikus]

Islam was created as a religion to dominate and subdue people who dont agree with it....

It has nothing to do with my interpretation asshole, it has to do with, oh I dont know, the multiple wars being waged against free people all over the world. If there were Christians wiping out populations of people because they werent Christians, I'd be against that too. Apparently you are too blinded by your own ideology to see whats been going on.


First, I think all religion is used to dominate and subdue people who don't agree with it. That's not how things start off, necessarily, but it is how they end up.

Second, I may be mistaken, but wiping out populations of people because they won't conform to your religion is something that Christians are quite familiar with. Ask the natives in North and South America about that. Or maybe the Muslims and all of non-Christian Europe during the Crusades.

[Archangel]

That's pretty much what all religions were created to do.
I'm pretty sure that Jesus didn't set out to dominate anyone. What Constantine and Theodosius did is hardly his fault.
like for example in Bosnia or Kosovo? oh, wait.
Pwnt. But Pax has a point; anti-Muslim feelings in the Balkans are more than understandable.
Agreed.
My point to him was that it happens both directions. There is no moral high ground where genocide is concerned. Radicals of any cause pose a threat to civilization.
I'd further that by saying that the bulk of Islam doesn't subscribe the violent spread of their religion.
Still, as Arch will point out, if only 10% of a billion are on board, that makes for 100,000,000 angry folk out there.
Everybody here knows that I'm not a friend of Muslims, but tell you what, I'd rather be a Muslim than a redneck. At least one had a choice.

[Yelram]

I'm pretty sure that Jesus didn't set out to dominate anyone. What Constantine and Theodosius did is hardly his fault.

Pwnt. But Pax has a point; anti-Muslim feelings in the Balkans are more than understandable.

Everybody here knows that I'm not a friend of Muslims, but tell you what, I'd rather be a Muslim than a redneck. At least one had a choice.

You dont even know what a redneck is.

[Archangel]

Islam, in its current state, is a deplorable fucking thing. But then again, so was Christianity. Why do you think Luther, a great scholar and devout cleric, got so fed up with all the bullshit?

And, yes, Islam always was - and still is to this day - a religion of hostile takeover. For every Crusade, there's an occupation of the Iberian Peninsula; for every colonialism, there's a genocide against Christian Armenians etc.

However, the only difference is the time the different religions took to become imperialistic. Mohammed was both a man of God and a general (but then, so were Joshua, David and Salomo): But after a few centuries, a religion built on passivity and charity was out there burning mother fuckers and fucking up heathens left, right and centre. Theodosius I prosecuting heretics. Clovis I converting after victory at Tolbiac. Charlemagne forcibly converting the Saxons. Otto the Great (a Saxon, lulz) defeating the Magyars at Lechfeld.

The only difference between Islam and Christianity, in this case, was that one set out as violent, and the other became violent after it was hijacked by worldly interests. Didn't make much of a difference to the dead guys whether their house being burnt down and their daughters being raped were systemic to the religion or in hypocritical contrast to it, though.

[Archangel]

You dont even know what a redneck is.

If you're wearing someone else's work shirt...


And great argument there.