2008 Election - Offseason

[Hanover Fist]

I wasn't that impressed by the Biden selection either, but lets wait until after the first VP debate to see who looks like the better choice. Palin against Biden might have actually weakened Biden's appeal as a bulldog because the viewing public might not take too well to Biden ripping her apart. I guess we'll see.

She also has a reputation for being quite blunt and direct. If Biden underestimates her as her previous opponents have, he just might find his ass being served to him on a platter.
I would rather have McCain lose with Palin as his VP than win with some RINO pick.

[Kilgore]

Does anyone think that Senator Obama would have made a different choice if he got to pick after Senator McCain?

Or would Senator McCain have made a different choice if he had to pick before Senator Obama?I think Obama's choice would have stuck anyway that you look at it, but Johnny's would have diffent if he went first or if Obama picked Hill.

[Emjanss]

Again you're a retard. Obama's weaknesses were perceived inexperience on foreign policy, youth, and his race. He picks a well-known, good campaigning, foreign policy experienced, older, white guy. Yeah, terrible choice. :/ GTFO.
So basically Senator Obama's selection addressed each of his preceived weakness. By making that pick isn't that an acknowledgement of those weaknesses?

While Senator McCain made a selection that he can say in many way supports him. Attacked public corruption, check. Attacked government spending waste, check. Went against the mainstream of the party when it was (in his opinion) wrong, check. Supports drilling in Alaska, check.

She has 3 main differences that I see.

She's female
She's good looking
She'd (relatively) young

She probably can play basketball better than him too.

[Smokestack]

I wonder if that is what Govenor Frank Murkowski thought? or maybe Randy Ruedrich? or Gregg Renkes?

What I have to wonder is can she make up some of the difference between Senator Obama's strongest strength and Senator McCain's greatest weakness?

When Senator Obama gives a speach, everyone wants to hear it again and again. When Senator McCain gives a speach people want to nap.

Look, she could have done a bang-up job fighting corruption in Alaska and even been a great governor for her 2 years, but that still doesn't mean her selection wasn't overwhelmingly political and, in that sense, gimmicky. She's running for national office and has no discernible foreign policy positions (http://www.ontheissues.org/Sarah_Palin.htm) although I'm sure they'll end up being boilerplate McCain stands.

I agree with you that you have to wonder if she can close the enthusiasm gap that exists between Obama and McCain (seems to be the logical extension of the speech analogy). But it seems that this also undermines the McCain brand in some pretty significant ways...ways that he's run his campaign on thus far. Granted, Obama did the same thing by choosing Biden after being the "change candidate."

Given all of these developments, I think this whole race may change in some very interesting ways.

[Rover]

I really enjoyed the speech by Obama last night. It was the same old, same old list of the same thing the Democrats have been pushing for the last 30 years. Everyone is an unwed, single, mother, who is raising 3 children on minimum wage, who has no healthcare, who has 2 jobs and used to have 3, but that one's recently been shipped overseas.

Democrats have been losing that argument for decades. Also, he didn't exactly lay out a plan to pay for everything. Although, I, assume, that it's the same magic wand that the government has been using for years to pay for things.

Anyway, the speech was quite the political spectacle.
You all really think that Sarah Palin is a good choice for VP? She's been the governor of Alaska since December of 2006, and before that she was the mayor of Wasilla (pop. 9000). McCain's ENTIRE platform so far is that Obama has no experience, and now he picks someone with half as much experience as Obama.McCain has been moving his argument from experience to judgement for the last several weeks. Also, it can be argued that Palin has more relevant experience than Obama. For example, she's been entrusted by people who trust her judgement to make executive decisions on their behalf. Obama has never had to be responsible for his own decisions. Legislators are given the cover of everyone who voted the same way they did.

This judgement by McCain shows that he is far more concerned with changing the way Washington does business than Obama is.

It is the one single presidential act we see a candidate make pre-election, so it is the one piece of ACTUAL judgement we can go by.Obama says his election is about changing the way Washington does business. So he selects a 35 year Washington insider, who gets his sons jobs with Washington lobbyists. McCain says he wants to change Washington so he goes as far away from Washington as possible, and selects a governor that has spent her political life (council, mayor, commisioner, governor) fighting corruption. Add her record to McCain's long established record of fighting Washington establishment and I think McCain wins the argument of who can change Washington.
Add to that her gender, her looks and her willingness to wear something other than a pantsuit and you might have a candidate actually in position to defeat President Obama and actually become the first female President.I've been telling friends for years that the first party to elect a woman and/or minority would be the GOP. Based on the fact that they continue to win national elections without the support of those two groups.

[Mr. Brown]

i can say this it's gonna be a really good election season. lots to talk about and research.

[Stax]

McCain has been moving his argument from experience to judgement for the last several weeks.

An even stupider position for a man who as a candidate stands against legislation he proposed and wrote as a legislator, and whose position on agree goes against the wide majority position of Americans.

[Stax]

So basically Senator Obama's selection addressed each of his preceived weakness. By making that pick isn't that an acknowledgement of those weaknesses?

THAT is a reasonable point, but I think may be complicated enough to not affect the voters disengaged enough to be swayed by a VP pick in the first place.

While Senator McCain made a selection that he can say in many way supports him. Attacked public corruption, check. Attacked government spending waste, check. Went against the mainstream of the party when it was (in his opinion) wrong, check. Supports drilling in Alaska, check.

It bothers me slightly that Palin is getting credit as this anti-corruption queen when she's under investigation for misuse of power (guilty or not, cmon). Not to mention she's getting stroked off for fighting corruption/pork barrel spending because she pushed one state bill through and cut some incredibly unpopular spending like the Bridge to Nowhere, where Obama pushes a piece of federal ethics reform through and was laughing at the Bridge to Nowhere with everybody before Palin was even in office and gets no love.

She has 3 main differences that I see.

She's female
She's good looking
She'd (relatively) young

She probably can play basketball better than him too.

None of which has anything to do with the presidency, other than maybe being young because it helps you not die.

[Emjanss]

I am really surprised by how much this selection has moved me.

Read my few posts about it earlier this week, last week and before. They sounded something like: The VP selection doesn't mean shit.

And it probably doesn't mean shit, but at this point I'm stating to feel okay about this election. Even if Obama does win the election and does the crappy job that I expect that he will, 4 years from now the Repbulicans might have a candidate I can be excited about and we might have a nation ready to elect them.

And yes:
I expect that if elected, President Obama will do a crappy job.
I expect that if elected, President McCain will do an okay job.

[ADD]

Obama will own your face

[ADD]

Also, someone explain to me how being a mayor of a town of 8,000 people and a governor for 22 months makes you qualified to be vice president or even president if something were to happen?

[Smokestack]

McCain has been moving his argument from experience to judgement for the last several weeks. Also, it can be argued that Palin has more relevant experience than Obama. For example, she's been entrusted by people who trust her judgement to make executive decisions on their behalf. Obama has never had to be responsible for his own decisions. Legislators are given the cover of everyone who voted the same way they did.

This judgement by McCain shows that he is far more concerned with changing the way Washington does business than Obama is.

While Senators don't have executive experience, they are de facto executives of their campaign operations. Obama has run a very impressive and wide-reaching campaign thus far and it's applicable to glean his executive skillset from the organization he has put together and run.

McCain's choice shows that "he is far more concerned with changing the way Washington does business than Obama is?" Talk about reading way too far into it. It shows he's made a clever and interesting choice for his VP. George W. Bush claimed he came from the outside of Washington to "change it." Put this into some context: the GOP has not been the party of change and there are no real indicators, especially with McCain's capitulation from Maverick to rubber stamp, that this is a ticket aiming to change Washington.

Obama says his election is about changing the way Washington does business. So he selects a 35 year Washington insider, who gets his sons jobs with Washington lobbyists. McCain says he wants to change Washington so he goes as far away from Washington as possible, and selects a governor that has spent her political life (council, mayor, commisioner, governor) fighting corruption. Add her record to McCain's long established record of fighting Washington establishment and I think McCain wins the argument of who can change Washington.
I've been telling friends for years that the first party to elect a woman and/or minority would be the GOP. Based on the fact that they continue to win national elections without the support of those two groups.

Again with the surface-level analysis. Dig deeper. Geographical distance can't be your determining factor here. Again, what we've heard so far from the McCain campaign is that, outside of some environmental issues (credit to him there), his issues would hew pretty closely to those of the last 8 years. McCain's stacking his campaign with lobbyists belies his so-called "long established record of fighting Washington establishment."

[Rover]

Does anyone think that Senator Obama would have made a different choice if he got to pick after Senator McCain?

Or would Senator McCain have made a different choice if he had to pick before Senator Obama?Yes. Obama's would have been different. He would have gone outside Washington. To make a stronger 'change' argument.

I think McCain's choice would have been the same. This selection fits the mavericky McCain image that he's cultivated for years.

She also has a reputation for being quite blunt and direct. If Biden underestimates her as her previous opponents have, he just might find his ass being served to him on a platter.
I would rather have McCain lose with Palin as his VP than win with some RINO pick.I'm just glad he picked a conservative. With names like Ridge and Pawlenty and Lieberman swirling around. I was thinking that I might not be able to vote for McCain in the Fall. That won't be a problem now.

[Stax]

Yes. Obama's would have been different. He would have gone outside Washington. To make a stronger 'change' argument.

I think McCain's choice would have been the same. This selection fits the mavericky McCain image that he's cultivated for years.

I'm just glad he picked a conservative. With names like Ridge and Pawlenty and Lieberman swirling around. I was thinking that I might not be able to vote for McCain in the Fall. That won't be a problem now.

Tim Pawlenty isn't conservative enough??

[Rover]

Also, someone explain to me how being a mayor of a town of 8,000 people and a governor for 22 months makes you qualified to be vice president or even president if something were to happen?A philosophical argument can be made that the job of president is so unique and complex that no one is every really "ready" or "qualified". Voters can only look at experience and judgement.

[Stax]

A philosophical argument can be made that the job of president is so unique and complex that no one is every really "ready" or "qualified". Voters can only look at experience and judgement.

I believe in that argument. However because of that I also think the experience argument is a bit silly at all, what gives you presidential experience? Being a high level general, maybe, but even that's only part of the job.

[Rover]

Tim Pawlenty isn't conservative enough??He's Milquetoast.

[Smokestack]

A philosophical argument can be made that the job of president is so unique and complex that no one is every really "ready" or "qualified". Voters can only look at experience and judgement.

And hopefully weigh those two attributes against the context the country finds itself in. Context is often ignored in these considerations and it shouldn't be.

[Stax]

He's Milquetoast.

Who the heck do you want as your candidate, Thomas Jefferson? Or is his stance on abortion not good enough?

[Hanover Fist]

I believe in that argument. However because of that I also think the experience argument is a bit silly at all, what gives you presidential experience? Being a high level general, maybe, but even that's only part of the job.


Governorships are the closest thing to being president, way more so than even being a general. It is executive level experience, the buck stops there for all issues in the state. It's a presidency on a smaller scale.
It's not like being in legislature where you aren't typically held accountable for anything.
Governors control military, law enforcement, public services, economic policy, etc etc etc.

[Rover]

I believe in that argument. However because of that I also think the experience argument is a bit silly at all, what gives you presidential experience? Being a high level general, maybe, but even that's only part of the job.Voters have historically decided that relevant experience includes being governor of a state. 2 sitting senators have every been elected (soon to be 3) in 200+ years. Legislative experience is better than no experience, but that experience isn't the same. Voters have consistently said that. The political graveyard is littered with the corpses of senators the voters have thought weren't able to be president.

[redsox39]

It bothers me slightly that Palin is getting credit as this anti-corruption queen when she's under investigation for misuse of power (guilty or not, cmon). Not to mention she's getting stroked off for fighting corruption/pork barrel spending because she pushed one state bill through and cut some incredibly unpopular spending like the Bridge to Nowhere, where Obama pushes a piece of federal ethics reform through and was laughing at the Bridge to Nowhere with everybody before Palin was even in office and gets no love.

Really? that shocks you?

So if you start busting the balls of people in power, you don't think they will try to fight back? What planet do you guys come from?

[Stax]

Governorships are the closest thing to being president, way more so than even being a general. It is executive level experience, the buck stops there for all issues in the state. It's a presidency on a smaller scale.
It's not like being in legislature where you aren't typically held accountable for anything.
Governors control military

The National Guard, mostly in relations to fires and shit. Not the Army, Navy, Air Force, and the National Guard in real emergencies.

law enforcement,

The cops, not the FBI/CIA/NSA/etc

public services

No Social Security, no Medicare, no Medicaid.

economic policy, etc etc etc.

State budgets are so different from the federal budget it's silly.

The governors of big, multi-environment, plural states like California, New York, Texas (although the governorship in TX is quite weak), Florida, Pennsylvania maybe gets some useful experience. But I think anyone in politics at the federal level has the experience that being governor of Alaska gets you.

[Smokestack]

Voters have historically decided that relevant experience includes being governor of a state. 2 sitting senators have every been elected (soon to be 3) in 200+ years. Legislative experience is better than no experience, but that experience isn't the same. Voters have consistently said that. The political graveyard is littered with the corpses of senators the voters have thought weren't able to be president.

Let's not overplay the value of "executive experience" in voters minds. That's the happy version of why people vote for governors. Equally if not more important is that Senators are constantly voting on bills and motions and therefore have extensive and often contradictory histories on various issues. In addition to that, pork is often attached to bills they vote on, so a clever campaigner can argue that they were for one thing when, in truth, they were more interested in something else. Governors come to a campaign with a far cleaner slate, which allows their positions to be dictated more by the campaign speeches they give and not so much by their respective records hanging around their necks. Just look what their vote for the Iraq War did to Kerry and Clinton...

[Stax]

Voters have historically decided that relevant experience includes being governor of a state. 2 sitting senators have every been elected (soon to be 3) in 200+ years. Legislative experience is better than no experience, but that experience isn't the same. Voters have consistently said that. The political graveyard is littered with the corpses of senators the voters have thought weren't able to be president.

I understand how experience is percieved. But I'm saying that me personally as someone who doesn't buy that you can prepare to be president, not having EXPERIENCE relevant to being president is a natural offshoot of that.

Really? that shocks you?

So if you start busting the balls of people in power, you don't think they will try to fight back? What planet do you guys come from?

... Huh? I said I'm surprised (though not really, that was more sarcastic code for annoyed) that Palin is immediately getting sucked off for fighting corruption at a state level, yet Obama who pushed through legislation at both the state AND federal level gets nothing.

[Rover]

The National Guard, mostly in relations to fires and shit. Not the Army, Navy, Air Force, and the National Guard in real emergencies.

The cops, not the FBI/CIA/NSA/etcBut the president doesn't have day to day responsibility for them. The president just hires somebody to be in charge. SecDef, AG, etc.

I understand how experience is percieved. But I'm saying that me personally as someone who doesn't buy that you can prepare to be president, not having EXPERIENCE relevant to being president is a natural offshoot of that.Who has more relevant experience to being president, Sarah Palin, or my mechanic? There's only a certain level of non-experience (non-prepared-ness) you can have before the possibility of you becoming president becomes ridiculous.

[Smokestack]

In non-Palin related news, Obama appears to be getting a post-convention bump:

Gallup Daily: Obama Stretches Lead to 8 Points

Lead one of largest in campaign



USA (http://www.gallup.com/tag/USA.aspx)
Election 2008 (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Election%2b2008.aspx)
Gallup Daily (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Gallup%2bDaily.aspx)
Americas (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Americas.aspx)
Northern America (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Northern%2bAmerica.aspx)

PRINCETON, NJ -- The latest Gallup Poll Daily tracking (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Gallup%2bDaily.aspx) finds Barack Obama moving to an eight percentage point lead over John McCain, 49% to 41%.
http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080829DailyUpdateGraph1_tyghnbv.gif

[Void]

Anyone have pics of Palin's baby tard?

[Stax]

Who has more relevant experience to being president, Sarah Palin, or my mechanic? There's only a certain level of non-experience (non-prepared-ness) you can have before the possibility of you becoming president becomes ridiculous.

Yes, but don't you agree that when setting some standard, say someone who has held a major office in the United States government, things are probably mostly equal?

[Hanover Fist]

In non-Palin related news, Obama appears to be getting a post-convention bump:

Gallup Daily: Obama Stretches Lead to 8 Points

Lead one of largest in campaign



USA (http://www.gallup.com/tag/USA.aspx)
Election 2008 (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Election%2b2008.aspx)
Gallup Daily (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Gallup%2bDaily.aspx)
Americas (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Americas.aspx)
Northern America (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Northern%2bAmerica.aspx)

PRINCETON, NJ -- The latest Gallup Poll Daily tracking (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Gallup%2bDaily.aspx) finds Barack Obama moving to an eight percentage point lead over John McCain, 49% to 41%.
http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080829DailyUpdateGraph1_tyghnbv.gif



I believe that's pretty weak for a convention bump, only 4 points. I remember hearing that the norm is closer to 10. Although it almost always disappears after a few weeks of both conventions.

[Stax]

I believe that's pretty weak for a convention bump, only 4 points. I remember hearing that the norm is closer to 10. Although it almost always disappears after a few weeks of both conventions.

What I've read is that for both parties (there was like a 1% variation between the two) the range was -1 or 2% to +10 to 12%. So 4% RIGHT after the convention, likely without much impact for the later speeches, seems about average.

[Smokestack]

I believe that's pretty weak for a convention bump, only 4 points. I remember hearing that the norm is closer to 10. Although it almost always disappears after a few weeks of both conventions.

This polling was also done before Obama's speech and Palin's selection, so what you're looking at there is the post-Bubba and Biden bounce.

[redsox39]

The governors of big, multi-environment, plural states like California, New York, Texas (although the governorship in TX is quite weak), Florida, Pennsylvania maybe gets some useful experience. But I think anyone in politics at the federal level has the experience that being governor of Alaska gets you.

Gee, I wonder what makes you think that? Partisan Hack alert!!

[Lone Wolf]

Are there really any McCain fans that like this nomination? Was Dan Quayle busy?

[Stax]

Gee, I wonder what makes you think that? Partisan Hack alert!!

...Texas and Florida are Democratic hotbeds? Kay Bailey Hutchinson would've been a popular choice if she wasn't so notably pro-choice, and Charlie Crist was talked about a good amount.

EDIT - Kay Bailey Hutchison is a Senator, I'm stupid.

[Hanover Fist]

Are there really any McCain fans that like this nomination? Was Dan Quayle busy?

I'm not a fan of McCain by any means, but this was a fantastic pick. It almost redeems him in my eyes.

[kareyn01]

So basically Senator Obama's selection addressed each of his preceived weakness. By making that pick isn't that an acknowledgement of those weaknesses?

While Senator McCain made a selection that he can say in many way supports him. Attacked public corruption, check. Attacked government spending waste, check. Went against the mainstream of the party when it was (in his opinion) wrong, check. Supports drilling in Alaska, check.

She has 3 main differences that I see.

She's female
She's good looking
She'd (relatively) young

She probably can play basketball better than him too.

Just FYI, McCain opposes drilling in Alaska. He favors offshore drilling, but not drilling in ANWR.

And if by "attacked public corruption" you mean was almost recalled as Wasilla mayor for unlawful firing of the police chief and librarian for voting for her opponent in the 1996 mayoral election, or being investigated in ANOTHER unlawful firing investigation as governor; and if by "attacked government spending and waste" you mean signed into effect the largest government operating budget in Alaska's history, or replacing the entire Board of Agriculture and Conservation because they proposed shutting down an unprofitable state-owned dairy, and then had to close the thing anyway when it continued to lose money, and failed in its attempts to recoup the debt by selling-off the assests, then yes, that does support Senator McCain.

I just find it interesting that you loathe Senator Obama because of his perceived lack of experience, but are "moved" by the selection of someone with 18 months experience governing the 47th largest state in the Union, and prior to that was the PART-TIME mayor of a town of 6,000.

[redsox39]

Are there really any McCain fans that like this nomination? Was Dan Quayle busy?


I like it in as much as I want Obama to lose. McCain was never my choice but I like the stradegy. I wanted Mitt Romney more, but she was second. Let's let the right get a few single issue voters for once. You guys get the race card, we get the gender card.

I think she will be great. She will be outspoken and media friendly...she will say what she think and address the press...I thought you guys wanted that...

Besides the fact that her and Obama have about the same experience level, at least she is the VP and not the Top dog...yet...

[Lone Wolf]

McCain is old. There is a lot on America's table right now. I don't know how a lot of people are going to feel about her being a heartbeat away from running the show.

[redsox39]

Just FYI, McCain opposes drilling in Alaska. He favors offshore drilling, but not drilling in ANWR.

And if by "attacked public corruption" you mean was almost recalled as Wasilla mayor for unlawful firing of the police chief and librarian for voting for her opponent in the 1996 mayoral election, or being investigated in ANOTHER unlawful firing investigation as governor; and if by "attacked government spending and waste" you mean signed into effect the largest government operating budget in Alaska's history, or replacing the entire Board of Agriculture and Conservation because they proposed shutting down an unprofitable state-owned dairy, and then had to close the thing anyway when it continued to lose money, and failed in its attempts to recoup the debt by selling-off the assests, then yes, that does support Senator McCain.

I just find it interesting that you loathe Senator Obama because of his perceived lack of experience, but are "moved" by the selection of someone with 18 months experience governing the 47th largest state in the Union, and prior to that was the PART-TIME mayor of a town of 6,000.

Like I said, about the same amount as Obama. SO what? I thought exp. had nothign to do with it to listen to you guys?

You should be happy! I mean, come on, we just added a slutty bimbo who is too young and inexpirenced to do anything...just admit it, you are pissed because he is going to pick up a small fraction of the women voters you felt you should have gotten with Hilary.

[Claydon]

i can say this it's gonna be a really good election season. lots to talk about and research.


Yah it is, we have a REAL horse race on our hands!

[redsox39]

McCain is old. There is a lot on America's table right now. I don't know how a lot of people are going to feel about her being a heartbeat away from running the show.

Yep, and if she is the VP for only 1 day she still will have more Exp than Obama, who you would let teabag your kids if he said so.lol.

[freegood]

Everyone get your tin-foil conspiracy hats on....

Most people assume Senator Obama is going to win this election, so let's assume that McCain, etc. have also come to this conclusion. If we make that assumption then this VP selection is about selecting someone to defeat President Obama in 2012.

In 2012 Governor Palin would then have not only 6 years expierence as a Governor, but also the experience of a national presidential campaign. Add to that her gender, her looks and her willingness to wear something other than a pantsuit and you might have a candidate actually in position to defeat President Obama and actually become the first female President.

Honest questions...

Do you think lib women will support a staunch pro-life candidate like Palin?

Would Republican men prefer candidates like Palin or Jindal for the ticket over Romney or Huckabee?

I think the Repbulican party needs a complete overhaul in ideology and culture. I've been saying Obama will be that agent to force Conservatives to react, but I'm interested in reading the opinions of those who have different views about this.

[Lone Wolf]

Yep, and if she is the VP for only 1 day she still will have more Exp than Obama, who you would let teabag your kids if he said so.lol.

I'm not in love with Obama by any means, but I am in love with the idea of putting somebody who isn't going to follow the same course in charge. I just don't see how anyone can look at the last 8 years and say that McCain is their guy.

[redsox39]

Honest questions...

Do you think lib women will support a staunch pro-life candidate like Palin?

Would Republican men prefer candidates like Palin or Jindal for the ticket over Romney or Huckabee?

I think the Repbulican party needs a complete overhaul in ideology and culture. I've been saying Obama will be that agent to force Conservatives to react, but I'm interested in reading the opinions of those who have different views about this.

Do you think all Lib women are Pro-Abortion? I have meet quite a few who are not. And if you want to decide the entire nation future on when a woman can kill a fetus, well, you might want to look at actual important issues. I am a pro choice conservative, as where I don't want the government making ANY decisions for me. so Abortion is a non-issue for me.

At the same time I DO think Live birth Abortion is Murder... if it is out of the womb before you kill it, come on, what else can it be?

[Hanover Fist]

Honest questions...

Do you think lib women will support a staunch pro-life candidate like Palin?

Would Republican men prefer candidates like Palin or Jindal for the ticket over Romney or Huckabee?

I think the Repbulican party needs a complete overhaul in ideology and culture. I've been saying Obama will be that agent to force Conservatives to react, but I'm interested in reading the opinions of those who have different views about this.

1. Not the hard core libs but a fairly good amount of moderate or even conservative democrats.

2. I'm not sure what you mean by candidates "like"? You mean minority or women as opposed to white men? Makes no difference to me at all, I judge the candidate on their own merits. I could care less what their heritage/race or sex is.

3.I disagree. They don't need an overhaul of ideology, they need to get back to their conservative ideology. The answer isn't to become more like Democrats, it's to get back to smaller government, strong security, and family values.

[redsox39]

I'm not in love with Obama by any means, but I am in love with the idea of putting somebody who isn't going to follow the same course in charge. I just don't see how anyone can look at the last 8 years and say that McCain is their guy.

McCain isn't my guy. However, Obama is definetly not my guy, so by default, I am a McCain guy.

[Smokestack]

Are there really any McCain fans that like this nomination? Was Dan Quayle busy?

Harriet Miers was also unavailable.

I'm not a fan of McCain by any means, but this was a fantastic pick. It almost redeems him in my eyes.

THIS redeems him? I can see how you might like the pick but in what ways is it that great and even redemptive?

I'm not in love with Obama by any means, but I am in love with the idea of putting somebody who isn't going to follow the same course in charge. I just don't see how anyone can look at the last 8 years and say that McCain is their guy.

+1. McCain would have been so much better 8 years ago. Not now.

Yep, and if she is the VP for only 1 day she still will have more Exp than Obama, who you would let teabag your kids if he said so.lol.

You laughed at your own shitty joke!

[Emjanss]

Honest questions...

Do you think lib women will support a staunch pro-life candidate like Palin? I think there are some women who will now vote for McCain that would not have simply because his VP candidate is a woman, but not a majority of them.

Would Republican men prefer candidates like Palin or Jindal for the ticket over Romney or Huckabee? Don't know Jindal. Huckabee was a tax and spender, but a social conservative. Romney was fiscally conservative, but socially less so. "Reps" in power as a whole seem to be more like Huckabee than Romney, so that might tel you they would like huckabee, but if the voters are sick of the Rep leadership, they would like Romney.

I think the Repbulican party needs a complete overhaul in ideology and culture. I've been saying Obama will be that agent to force Conservatives to react, but I'm interested in reading the opinions of those who have different views about this.
Then I assume you think that Huckabee would have been a bad choice.

[kareyn01]

Like I said, about the same amount as Obama. SO what? I thought exp. had nothign to do with it to listen to you guys?

You should be happy! I mean, come on, we just added a slutty bimbo who is too young and inexpirenced to do anything...just admit it, you are pissed because he is going to pick up a small fraction of the women voters you felt you should have gotten with Hilary.

Believe me, I'm very happy that Palin was selected. If you honestly think that Palin is going to pick up any significant female support for McCain when she is staunchly pro-life, anti gay-marriage, and a creationist, you're insane. Left-leaning women are not going to vote for a woman whose values are essentially the exact opposite of their own.

And I don't think you get the experience issue here. I agree that Obama doesn't have as much experience as McCain, that's really not debatable (although the worth of that experience definitely is). What's important is that the McCain campaign cut the legs out from under their ENTIRE CAMPAIGN TO DATE, that Obama doesn't have the experience necessary to be Commander-in-Chief, and then named a woman who three years ago was the part-time mayor of a town of 6000 people second-in-command.

Finally, why don't you do your own research on the woman before you talk about how great she is. You're pretty obviously a Republican, but did you know that under Palin, Masilla's operating budget increased by 33% in her first year, and tax revenue increased 38%? Or that (as previously mentioned) she championed and approved the largest governmental operating budget in Alaska's history in 2007? That seems like it would go against your espoused values, if you even bothered to think for yourself.

I could go on for a while, but I'm dangerously close to OUDizzle length, so I'll wait.

PS. Link for Void: http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=AS&p_theme=as&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0F79408854D0C20B&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

[Lone Wolf]

+1. McCain would have been so much better 8 years ago. Not now.



McCain 8 years ago would not vote for McCain of today.

[redsox39]

You laughed at your own shitty joke!

I added that late, I was actually laughing at the more exp than Obama if she was VP for 1 day.

[Smokestack]

Seems Palin was for the infamous Bridge to Nowhere before she was against it:

Would you continue state funding for the proposed Knik Arm and Gravina Island bridges?
Yes. I would like to see Alaska's infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now--while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.


Looks like the prospects of creationism in the classroom and a staunch pro-life candidate have James Dobson back on board too: http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/08/dobson_says_he_will_vote_mccai.html

[redsox39]

LOL! Oh No NOT A FLIP FLOPPER!!!! lol

I know, hard to beleive it happens on the right too...

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd96/jyce50/palin.jpg

[Hanover Fist]

PS. Link for Void: http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=AS&p_theme=as&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0F79408854D0C20B&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

Heheh, that link is to the recall that was started by the mayor she defeated and the Sheriff. She then won re-election again later by an even bigger margin.
She now has the highest approval rating of any Governor in the country.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

I just find it interesting that you loathe Senator Obama because of his perceived lack of experience, but are "moved" by the selection of someone with 18 months experience governing the 47th largest state in the Union, and prior to that was the PART-TIME mayor of a town of 6,000.

Except that last time I checked, Senator Obama wasn't running for Vice President.

[kareyn01]

Heheh, that link is to the recall that was started by the mayor she defeated and the Sheriff. She then won re-election again later by an even bigger margin.
She now has the highest approval rating of any Governor in the country.

So the fact that she has a record of unlawfully firing public officials has no relevance? And the recall was started by 60 residents of the city, not the former mayor. He simply came out to support it (as can be expected).

[Mustard]

Sarah Palin huh? Wow, this decision smacks of political desperation. Her wanton lack of experience on national issues and foreign policy completely nullifies and invalidates McCain's identical argument against Obama, thereby taking away one of McCain's biggest and hardest hitting points in the campaign.

McCain's pick of Palin also lacks judgment everywhere. Unless his goal was to sexy up his campaign... but this isn't a beauty pageant people, this is the race for being the next President of the United States. With McCain's age and health being what it is (72 and fighting cancer), who can say for certain that he would definitely make it through four years of, arguably, the most stressful job on the planet? Considering that, the mere thought that no-national-and-foreign-policy-experience-whatsoever Sarah Palin will be one heartbeat away from taking the reigns by being the President of the United States is a VERY uncomfortable thought for me. Oh but she's a MILF and she seems really nice and shut the fuck up... I don't care about any of that shit, and you shouldn't either. This is the VP pick of the GOP, being pretty and nice should have left the argument by now, being replaced by what experience she has (almost zero), her voting record (I have no idea, did you before today?), her political views (I have no idea, did you before today?), and her foreign policy experience (totally devoid and non-existent).

For fucks sake... and you cons thought Obama lacked experience. That was the single best argument against Obama, and McCain just totally destroyed that argument for you. Seriously, anyone who could actually say with a straight face now that Obama lacks experience, don't vote for him, while championing the McCain/Palin ticket in the same breath is a fucking hypocrite to the max. Like I said, this decision by McCain smacks of political desperation.

The bottom line is McCain fuck-fumbled this pick. If McCain's goal was to govern the USA and bring real change to Washington, he should have went with Romney (who I, and most of you, thought he was going to choose). Now it looks clear that McCain's only goal is to just win the election (and then what?) by bringing out a flashy choice that might sway HRC voters (most of who are pro-choice, keeping in mind that Palin is pro-life, and I wonder just how many HRC voters would vote for her just based on that???). Nawp, ain't gonna happen once they do a little research and find out that tid-bit of info, not to mention the fact that most HRC voters should be able to see thru the bullshit manipulation behind McCain's pick just to get them to vote for him. If the goal was to get HRC dems to vote McCain, this was a terrible idea that will backfire in the McCain camp's face.

And I'll say it again just because it is so important: Is Sarah Palin really the person that you cons want one heartbeat away from being the President of the United States? Just remember that when you go to vote.

[Hanover Fist]

So the fact that she has a record of unlawfully firing public officials has no relevance?


Excuse me? What exactly did she do that was unlawful?
I see she has a habit of rocking the boat and pissing off people that are corrupt. That tends to make enemies who try to damage your credibility, fortunately for her it has been to no avail.

[Claydon]

So the fact that she has a record of unlawfully firing public officials has no relevance?

Hmmmm, do not even attempt to throw dirt in her face, or I shall remind you of some of obama's wonderful friends, aka a known domestic terrorist etc etc etc.




As for Biden, I think he will be a bigger pain for the obama camp, I am sure he will mouth off something about what a great rack she has or some other dumb fucking thing.

not that there is anything wrong with a nice rack

[kareyn01]

Except that last time I checked, Senator Obama wasn't running for Vice President.

And last time I checked, Obama has the same amount of executive experience as John McCain: zero. You can't have it both ways.

[Smokestack]

Except that last time I checked, Senator Obama wasn't running for Vice President.

A president has plenty of time to plan for their office and surround themselves by advisers that they trust and that compliment their gaps. A VP doesn't have to do too much but in that rare case they do become president, they are thrust unexpectedly and suddenly thrust into the position, quite possibly into a stressful situation. Additionally, a VP doesn't candidate for months if not years, allowing for a full understanding of their positions and reasoning once in office. In all likelihood, they adopt the top of the ticket's positions and are therefore unknown to a large extent.

[freegood]

Then I assume you think that Huckabee would have been a bad choice.

Yeah, I would think that. I like his honesty and folksy manner, but his fiscal policy proposals scare the crap out of me.

[kareyn01]

Excuse me? What exactly did she do that was unlawful?
I see she has a habit of rocking the boat and pissing off people that are corrupt. That tends to make enemies who try to damage your credibility, fortunately for her it has been to no avail.

At first she denied that she had put any pressure on the Public Safety Commissioner, then came back and said that "members of her staff" had done so on at least a dozen occasions, and local news stations in Alaska are now reporting that they have receive audio tapes of conversations implicating Palin in the pressuring of the Commissioner to fire her ex brother-in-law.

And Claydon, go ahead and post whatever you want about Obama. First, everyone has already heard it, and made up their minds one way or the other. And secondly, I think that people should have all the information on candidates before they make a decision, which is why I think its hilarious that you and Hanover and Rover constantly claim that supporters of Obama are simply drinking the Kool Aid without knowing anything about his policy positions, but then rush to proclaim the nomination of a VP they know nothing about as an outstanding decision.

[Void]

LOL! Oh No NOT A FLIP FLOPPER!!!! lol

I know, hard to beleive it happens on the right too...

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd96/jyce50/palin.jpg
Where's the baby tard?

[Grieves]

Karl Rove is Lex Luthor in a world without Superman.

McCain's pick for VP is going to help him way more than Biden will for Obama. I still won't be voting for either, however.

[Void]

A president has plenty of time to plan for their office and surround themselves by advisers that they trust and that compliment their gaps. A VP doesn't have to do too much but in that rare case they do become president, they are thrust unexpectedly and suddenly thrust into the position, quite possibly into a stressful situation. Additionally, a VP doesn't candidate for months if not years, allowing for a full understanding of their positions and reasoning once in office. In all likelihood, they adopt the top of the ticket's positions and are therefore unknown to a large extent.No, but in Cheney's case, they can do far more than they should.

[Grieves]

It's well documented I fucking hate McCain. But not near as much as i despise Obama.So you'll be using the lesser of two evils rationale when you cast your vote for McCain, correct?

[Le Goat]

LOL! Oh No NOT A FLIP FLOPPER!!!! lol

I know, hard to beleive it happens on the right too...

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd96/jyce50/palin.jpg

I would fuck every single person in this picture. Though to be honest, the husband looks like a tool.

[Desperado]

I would fuck every single person in this picture. Though to be honest, the husband looks like a tool.


Maybe just a handjob then?

[Stax]

That older daughter is WAY sexy.

[Void]

That older daughter is WAY sexy.But the little kid has mongo-eyes.

Maybe Sarah drinks too much when she's out shooting wolves.

[Grieves]

Yep. I'm fine with that until there is a candidate I can get behind.People that think like you are a big part of why we always end up with shit candidates.

[Emjanss]

and exactly where did that tax revenue come from?
sales tax? nope. no state sales tax
personal income tax then? nope. no state personal income tax

gee, from where then.

A statement that the political enemies (the group "concerned citizens of Wasilla" was formed by the former mayor that she defeated and the police chief that was fired.) deciding not to attempt to have a recall is hardly basis for calling the firing of said police chief illegal.

However the former chief did file a lawsuit claiming unlawful termination, (breech of contract). 3 guess as to the outcome of that? - the first two don't count, In March 2000 it was ruled by a federal judge as a legal termination. (link (http://hatthief.blogspot.com/2008/08/vetting-sarah-palin-irl-stambaugh-walt.html))


And then there was this in October 1996 (link (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/29/132731/966/843/578857))

The newly elected mayor of Wasilla has asked all of the city's top managers to resign.

Mayor Sarah Palin sent the resignation requests Thursday to Police Chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton, finance director Duane Dvorak and Mary Ellen Emmons, the head of libraries.

Palin also asked each director to provide an updated resume and a letter stating his or her intentions. As of Friday [late October 1996], one director, whom Palin would not identify, had responded.


At the end of January two of them were given 2 weeks notice.

As for her more recent investigation:

Here is a link to the e-mail (http://media.adn.com/smedia/2008/07/18/13/071608-palin-wooten-email.source.prod_affiliate.7.pdf) she sent about the trooper that was fired. Read for yourself if it is unethical for a governor to send this or not. Or would it unethical for anyone, especially a governor to know this and not do anything about it?

I suspect that the answer is the same as if you thought Kyle Busch should be penalized for bumping Carl Edwards after the race at Bristol, 100% dependent on what other preconcieved notions you have.

Edit: Actually that letter was written before she was the governor

[Emjanss]

So the fact that she has a record of unlawfully firing public officials has no relevance? And the recall was started by 60 residents of the city, not the former mayor. He simply came out to support it (as can be expected).
um no and no

The former mayor didn't join the group, he helped start it.

The firing wasn't unlawful, as determined by a federal judge

[Grieves]

So assume I just don't vote? Then what?The specific options vary from state to state, but if you are registered with one of the major parties, then yes, not voting would be more effective than voting for a shitbag.

[Emjanss]

The specific options vary from state to state, but if you are registered with one of the major parties, then yes, not voting would be more effective than voting for a shitbag.
true - in some places if enough people don't vote then the party gets dropped from the ballot

also true, voting for a 3rd party may help maintain their presence on the ballot so they may still have some small voice

[Grieves]

Not voting is never effective. It's just irresponsible citizenship. You have every right to vote AGAINST someone, as you have every right to vote FOR someone.

A no vote is just the same as a for vote for the person you don't want it.
If you keep voting for horrible candidates, you'll keep getting horrible candidates.

[Grieves]

If I stop voting then it's even easier for the horrible candidates to get elected.Using your logic implies that if you keep voting for candidates, even when they're bad, that it will make it harder in the future for other bad candidates to follow. That just doesn't wash.

I guess it boils down to a philosophical difference of opinion.

[Grieves]

Whatever works for you.

[Mustard]

I just had a nice discussion with my 77 year old grandfather about the Sarah Palin pick. A little background, my grandfather is a staunch conservative from Florida, and is still in love with George W. Bush. He doesn't like o-BAM-uh one bit, and as far as I could tell was going to vote for McCain. Now that McCain has chosen Palin, he has decided to not vote for either candidate, and that he now thinks that both candidates are not worth voting for. He thinks this is a "cheap ploy by McCain" and that he can't in good conscious vote for someone he thinks is "only in it to win it".

I can only imagine how many other staunch conservatives like my grandfather will see it like this, and after less than one day no less?

[Creepnation]

Do you really want the most leftwing candidate to win since FDR?


Yes.

[Claydon]

I can only imagine how many other staunch conservatives like my grandfather will see it like this, and after less than one day no less?

Im a conservative and I think it was a brilliant move, and will happily vote for them.

[Mustard]

To be fair, you would have voted for McCain if he chose a four year old vietnameese girl to be his running mate because of your loathing of Obama.

[kareyn01]

and exactly where did that tax revenue come from?
sales tax? nope. no state sales tax
personal income tax then? nope. no state personal income tax

gee, from where then.

A statement that the political enemies (the group "concerned citizens of Wasilla" was formed by the former mayor that she defeated and the police chief that was fired.) deciding not to attempt to have a recall is hardly basis for calling the firing of said police chief illegal.

However the former chief did file a lawsuit claiming unlawful termination, (breech of contract). 3 guess as to the outcome of that? - the first two don't count, In March 2000 it was ruled by a federal judge as a legal termination. (link (http://hatthief.blogspot.com/2008/08/vetting-sarah-palin-irl-stambaugh-walt.html))


And then there was this in October 1996 (link (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/29/132731/966/843/578857))


At the end of January two of them were given 2 weeks notice.

As for her more recent investigation:

Here is a link to the e-mail (http://media.adn.com/smedia/2008/07/18/13/071608-palin-wooten-email.source.prod_affiliate.7.pdf) she sent about the trooper that was fired. Read for yourself if it is unethical for a governor to send this or not. Or would it unethical for anyone, especially a governor to know this and not do anything about it?

I suspect that the answer is the same as if you thought Kyle Busch should be penalized for bumping Carl Edwards after the race at Bristol, 100% dependent on what other preconcieved notions you have.

Edit: Actually that letter was written before she was the governor

I'm not really sure why state sales tax matters when you're discussing a mayor, and the rise in tax revenue from her first year as mayor. Wasilla has city sales tax, property tax, accommodation taxes. Its not like I invented the figures off the top of my head. Go to ciyofwasilla.com for tax info or firstgov.gov to search.

[FarEastFornicator]

All I can say is wow, if the common people cannot see that this is a ploy, I am worried for the future.

[Mr. Brown]

All I can say is wow, if the common people cannot see that this is a ploy, I am worried for the future.
^ I'll agree to that hopefully by the beginning the convention people will come to their senses.

[FarEastFornicator]

"Stagecraft" I think is the key word. I just heard it on MSNBC.

[Grieves]

All I can say is wow, if the common people cannot see that this is a ploy, I am worried for the future.That's what VP's are for.

[dadaelus]

Anyone have any theories on why her and not Kay Bailey Hutchinson? If it is a ploy or grandstanding why not go with someone that the base knows and loves?

[BIG PIZZLE]

OK, so Palin's baby is a retard. Please tell me that she knew it was a retard before it was born but she refused to abort it. Because that would just be too much awesome for me to deal with.

[kareyn01]

OK, so Palin's baby is a retard. Please tell me that she knew it was a retard before it was born but she refused to abort it. Because that would just be too much awesome for me to deal with.

You are correct. She had an ultrasound that showed that her baby would have Downs Syndrome and she went ahead with the pregnancy. Frankly, anybody who would abort a baby because of Downs Syndrome is a piece of shit. Corky all the way, baby!

As for Kay Bailey Hutchinson, McCain hates her with a passion, and I think the feeling is mutual.

[BIG PIZZLE]

They get elected, McCain dies in office, america falls apart.

[dadaelus]

As for Kay Bailey Hutchinson, McCain hates her with a passion, and I think the feeling is mutual.

Don't think they could stow that for 'the good of the party'? If true, it would have been even more fun to watch.

[kareyn01]

Here's an interesting example of Palin's supposed fight against government spending and waste:

http://dwb.adn.com/news/alaska/matsu/story/9055227p-8971221c.html

Apparently Sarah Palin decided to construct a $1.67 million dollar sports complex in Wasilla (which has a total annual budget of ~$6 million). Unfortunately, she decided to build it on land that wasn't actually owned by the city. Not surprisingly, an eminent domain case sprang up, which has cost the city "upwards of $2 million", and a budget shortfall of $372,000 (http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2008/02/01/local_news/doc47a2c7bcdf210495927316.txt).

In total, Palin took a city with a balanced budget, and led them to a record deficit. Upon becoming Governor, she approved the largest government operating budget in Alaska's history ($6.6 billion), and originally supported the infamous Bridge to Nowhere proposed by Ted Stevens, before lying today and saying she was against it from the beginning (http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/08/29/did-palin-really-fight-the-bridge-to-nowhere.aspx). Alaska is also first in pork barrel spending: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-03-22-earmarks_N.htm.

Ah, the delusion of fiscal responsibility.

[TheImpossibleMan]

I am blown away by the Palin selection, I think that's a ballsy move on McCain's part. I'm really rather stunned, I didn't think he had the brass to do something like this...good for him.

[TheImpossibleMan]

One thing I'm a little unclear on, how was the announcement made official? Did McCain hold a press confrence, or make an official statement? How did the word get out?

[BIG PIZZLE]

Here's an interesting example of Palin's supposed fight against government spending and waste:

http://dwb.adn.com/news/alaska/matsu/story/9055227p-8971221c.html

Apparently Sarah Palin decided to construct a $1.67 million dollar sports complex in Wasilla (which has a total annual budget of ~$6 million). Unfortunately, she decided to build it on land that wasn't actually owned by the city. Not surprisingly, an eminent domain case sprang up, which has cost the city "upwards of $2 million", and a budget shortfall of $372,000 (http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2008/02/01/local_news/doc47a2c7bcdf210495927316.txt).

In total, Palin took a city with a balanced budget, and led them to a record deficit. Upon becoming Governor, she approved the largest government operating budget in Alaska's history ($6.6 billion), and originally supported the infamous Bridge to Nowhere proposed by Ted Stevens, before lying today and saying she was against it from the beginning (http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/08/29/did-palin-really-fight-the-bridge-to-nowhere.aspx). Alaska is also first in pork barrel spending: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-03-22-earmarks_N.htm.

Ah, the delusion of fiscal responsibility.

So it's like she was in charge of a mildly retarded city and made it even more retarded?

[kareyn01]

One thing I'm a little unclear on, how was the announcement made official? Did McCain hold a press confrence, or make an official statement? How did the word get out?

He had an event in front of about 10,000 people today in Dayton to announce the selection.

[TheImpossibleMan]

I think this is a ridiculous coup for McCain, I don't even think she's an incredible politician or anything but McCain's ability to cut into some of Obama's mojo and his willingness to break new ground by putting a woman on the Republican ticket is impressive and seems like a brilliant political move.

I cannot WAIT for the debates, on both levels it will be young vs. old and change vs. experience, as Obama and Palin are young and are running as mavericks while Biden and McCain are old and are running as the guys with experience.

[BIG PIZZLE]

She's strictly a political decision. That's the only way she works. Otherwise it's a stupid move.

[Stax]

She's strictly a political decision. That's the only way she works. Otherwise it's a stupid move.

Exactly. I fail to see how this pick makes sense after even a week once the "Whoa he picked a woman" wears off. Then it's "Whoa he picked a 44 year old with less experience than the opponent he's always hounding about experience."

[Mustard]

I've got a sweet campaign slogan for the McCain camp now:

Beauty and the Beast

[TheImpossibleMan]

I think this is just amazing. Maybe it's all this weed I'm smoking, but I think this is a DY-NO-MITE! move by McCain.

[Stax]

I think this is just amazing. Maybe it's all this weed I'm smoking, but I think this is a DY-NO-MITE! move by McCain.

For what reason? The blatantly desperate and political (in a negative way) attempt to grab at supposedly disenfranchised Hillary voters by their vaginas, or the fact that two or three other guys would've gotten McCain everything Palin does (evangelical lovin') without the baggage?

[BIG PIZZLE]

This chick isnt for hilary voters. She's for hard-core conservatives. She pro-gun, pro-church, ani-abortion. It's like he found a rabbit in the forest that was pro-gun, pro-church, ani-abortion and put her on the ticket. If this works, america is stupider than I thought.

[Claydon]

This chick isnt for hilary voters. She's for hard-core conservatives.

Yah....most hilary voters are over the hill feminists from the 70s.

[Stax]

But that was addressed in my second point. If the goal was to get the far-righters, there were far better choices.

[TheImpossibleMan]

I think she'll attract more women voters to the Republican side and will also get the hardcore conservatives more on board with the McCain ticket. Additionally, anyone who thinks this doesn't cut into Obama's mojo is nuts; this will definitely draw headlines.

[Mustard]

I think this is just amazing. Maybe it's all this weed I'm smoking, but I think this is a DY-NO-MITE! move by McCain.
You mean the DY-NO-MITE! move of selecting a candidate with only 20 months of gubernatorial political (and no foreign) experience who will only be one 72 year-old heartbeat away from being the President of the United States, thereby totally undercutting McCain's best argument against Obama by saying that Obama isn't ready to lead with his ten years of combined Illinois Senate and United States Senatorial experience?

Or do you mean it was a DY-NO-MITE! move by McCain by picking a candidate that less than two months ago asked, "As for that VP talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does everyday?”

Of course everybody knows the answer to that question: They wake up, tell the President what to do, then shoot their friends in the face.

[freegood]

She has less gubernatorial experience than Bush had. But whogivzafuk? She's HOT!

[FarEastFornicator]

I think the powers that be have already given up on McCain. Clearly this is a no win situation for McCain and anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb. It's not a "balsy" move it is a "desperation" move and everyone knows it. End of story.

[TheImpossibleMan]

I can't get over this pick. I really can't believe I'm living in a world in which John McCain is running with a woman.

[TheImpossibleMan]

You mean the DY-NO-MITE! move of selecting a candidate with only 20 months of gubernatorial political (and no foreign) experience who will only be one 72 year-old heartbeat away from being the President of the United States, thereby totally undercutting McCain's best argument against Obama by saying that Obama isn't ready to lead with his ten years of combined Illinois Senate and United States Senatorial experience?

Or do you mean it was a DY-NO-MITE! move by McCain by picking a candidate that less than two months ago asked, "As for that VP talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does everyday?”

Of course everybody knows the answer to that question: They wake up, tell the President what to do, then shoot their friends in the face.
I think he's willing to sacrafice the "no experience" route in favor of simply presenting a stronger ticket. I like that. Not that I think this'll end dirty politics or anything, I just think that this is a step in the right direction, putting the strength of the ticket ahead of negative ads.

[Stax]

I think he's willing to sacrafice the "no experience" route in favor of simply presenting a stronger ticket. I like that. Not that I think this'll end dirty politics or anything, I just think that this is a step in the right direction, putting the strength of the ticket ahead of negative ads.

You cannot sacrifice the center theme of your campaign AND defend your VP pick all DURING THE WEEK OF YOUR CONVENTION with 2 months to go and honestly hope to COME BACK (he was already losing pretty consistently, keep in mind) on the machine of Obama/Biden.

[Mustard]

I can't get over this pick. I really can't believe I'm living in a world in which John McCain is running with a woman.
Get over it. It happened, and thats that.

Now its time to realize that McCain chose a VP who will get torn up in debates on national and foreign policy, that McCain just killed his best argument against Obama, and that this is a cheap political gimmick by the McCain camp to swing PUMA voters over to vote for them...

Yeah... thats not going to happen. This pick weakened the GOP ticket, and I for one am ecstatic about it.

I think he's willing to sacrafice the "no experience" route in favor of simply presenting a stronger ticket. I like that. Not that I think this'll end dirty politics or anything, I just think that this is a step in the right direction, putting the strength of the ticket ahead of negative ads.
You do realize that she is completely anti-gay, right?

[TheImpossibleMan]

I just think this is a great political move, anyone who thinks this doesn't cut into Obama's mojo is nuts. I just feel really strongly about this, I dunno, just a gut feeling. We'll see what happens in the polls.

[Mustard]

OF COURSE IT IS A POLITICAL MOVE DUM-DUM!!!

McCain, pure and simple, is selling out his future Administration on the chance to win the election, that is all!

Its a fucking gimmick! A cheap ploy to try to get disaffected "PUMA" voters to vote McCain into office, and its gonna backfire. Do I have to bring up Gerry Ferraro? The women in that election (it was said) would vote in droves for her, and look what happened, her ticket got voted down (by women mind you) 56 to 44.

I'm sorry bud, but that gut feeling you're having isn't a preminition, its impending doom for the McCain campaign.

[Stax]

OF COURSE IT IS A POLITICAL MOVE DUM-DUM!!!

McCain, pure and simple, is selling out his future Administration on the chance to win the election, that is all!

Its a fucking gimmick! A cheap ploy to try to get disaffected "PUMA" voters to vote McCain into office, and its gonna backfire. Do I have to bring up Gerry Ferraro? The women in that election (it was said) would vote in droves for her, and look what happened, her ticket got voted down (by women mind you) 56 to 44.

I'm sorry bud, but that gut feeling you're having isn't a preminition, its impending doom for the McCain campaign.

And keep in mind Ferraro was a Democrat, the party women usually break for 55-45ish to begin with, making that vote even more extreme.

[freegood]

McCain sure locked up the "disaffected wife who's husbands probably writes her ballot anyways" vote with the Pallin pick.

What kind of woman is he courting? The young women hot for Obama? Or the Hillarites who will also happen to fight tooth and nail for pro-choice?

[BIG PIZZLE]

The problem is that even though it may help him become president, it wont help him be president.

[Stax]

McCain sure locked up the "disaffected wife who's husbands probably writes her ballot anyways" vote with the Pallin pick.

What kind of woman is he courting? The young women hot for Obama? Or the Hillarites who will also happen to fight tooth and nail for pro-choice?

Mi papi gave me an interesting theory.

McCain has already said "Fuck it" to the election and is just trying to work a threeway with himself, his wife, and Palin.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Palin looks bangable FO SHO. But she's too religious, it would be like banging a potato. And she seems really annoying. And even if you get to tag it, she wont let you wrap it up and if she get's prenant you have to have the baby, which will probably be a retard. Stay home.

[Mustard]

Another point to consider. McCain had the GOP nomination wrapped up by April, and has had all of this time to consider a good selection for VP... so naturally Palin was his first choice? That just seems to be a bit of a stretch if you ask me. I mean, the two of them had only met TWO times previously, ever. Not only that, but Kay Bailey Hutchison would have been a MMMMMMUUUUUUUCCCCCCHHHHH better choice as VP if McCain was hell bent on picking a woman as VP. She just has so much more to offer than Palin, and on top of that, is already well liked pretty much throughout the GOP.

So I have to offer this guess: Perhaps McCain got told NO by Romney and Pawlenty firstly and secondly, so that in 2012 (assuming McCain loses the general) Romney will be a virtual shoe-in to be the GOP nominee and he can choose Pawlenty to be the VP. That seems more in line with what a good strategy would look like if I was either Romney or Pawlenty.

Either way, I should put John McCain on my Christmas card list, and say thanks for dropping the ball on your failed Hail Mary attempt.

[TheImpossibleMan]

I think this is the quintessential example of high-risk, high-reward. This could be a complete triumph for McCain, but it could also explode in his face. I'm leaning towards the former right now.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

All I can say is wow, if the common people cannot see that this is a ploy, I am worried for the future.

Funny you mention that....it's exactly what comes to my mind when I hear of someone buying Hussein's bullshit speeches.

[Genius]

Funny you mention that....it's exactly what comes to my mind when I hear of someone buying Hussein's bullshit speeches.
I love that people like you will have to buy them for eight years. And he's going to raise the fuck out of your taxes, to boot.

[BIG PIZZLE]

John McCain is Older Than Alaska--The Senator from Arizona is 23 years older than America's 49th state. Lol.

[Claydon]

John McCain is Older Than Alaska--The Senator from Arizona is 23 years older than America's 49th state. Lol.

Joe Biden has been alive 17 years longer than Alaska has been a state, what is your point fuck stick?

[Genius]

I think his point was that John McCain is old.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Yeah that seemed obvious Claydon.

[Claydon]

So is joe biden

[mongo]

i've never posted in this thread and i never intend to again. however, i think ol' john made a wise choice. this coming from a typical swing vote. i hate biden and think obama did himself a un-solid picking him. he undermined everything he ever said/meant about change. sellout.whore.


fyi-prior to last week, i was gonna vote obama, now i'm gonna write in for mr. peanut.

[Claydon]

So is Palin a...


.... VPILF?

[Claydon]

i've never posted in this thread and i never intend to again. however, i think ol' john made a wise choice. this coming from a typical swing vote. i hate biden and think obama did himself a un-solid picking him. he undermined everything he ever said/meant about change. sellout.whore.


fyi-prior to last week, i was gonna vote obama, now i'm gonna write in for mr. peanut.

who the fuck are you!?

[mongo]

who the fuck are you!?

stfu matthew.

[Claydon]

stfu matthew.

at least you know my name, most people call me matt, which is uber gay.

so can we count on your vote for the old man and the vpilf?

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

I love that people like you will have to buy them for eight years. And he's going to raise the fuck out of your taxes, to boot.

Yup...and I have to stomach welfare recipient losers like you, voting for him 'cause you think he'll fill your extended hand with money.

[Genius]

Raise taxes! Praise the Lord!

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Raise taxes! Praise the Lord!

Hopefully someone turns the top of your head into a canoe....before it's too late.

[vasili denisov]

Hopefully someone turns the top of your head into a canoe....before it's too late.
Turn your head into a canoe! That would demonstrate a woodcrafting skill that I've long mourned has been lost, but thankfully, this confirms that it's not been forgotten! Turn your head into a canoe! I have no idea what that means! Perhaps if I watched this "Musical High School" or "Water Burger Team" I'd understand this slang you just dropped! Turn your head into a canoe! I remember when we used to say "I'll kayak your noggin!" back when coffee was a dime and so was an irish servant!

[Pharon]

This is pretty funny - Jack Cafferty throwing a hissy fit over the Palin choice:

DzwaLvUB68g

[mcnastasty]

obama hates white people. he even said so in his book.

[heelsguy]

Exactly. I fail to see how this pick makes sense after even a week once the "Whoa he picked a woman" wears off. Then it's "Whoa he picked a 44 year old with less experience than the opponent he's always hounding about experience."

she has more executive experience than obama has..


....but the thing that is finally sinking in with me is that after this election, we will EITHER have a black president or a female vice president. pretty amazing.

[vasili denisov]

obama hates white people. he even said so in his book.
It's good for a president to have passions.

[Hanover Fist]

This is pretty funny - Jack Cafferty throwing a hissy fit over the Palin choice:


John Cafferty >>> Jack Cafferty

[kid_vidrio]

she has more executive experience than obama has..


....but the thing that is finally sinking in with me is that after this election, we will EITHER have a black president or a female vice president. pretty amazing.
yeah, either way it's historical.

obama's camp already shot an ad that's starting today i think, showing he and palin and saying that this doesn't change the fact that he wants to stay in iraq and votes with bush 90% of the time. he is not attacking the choice and staying with his main criticism. pretty good move imo.

[Pharon]

Not like he has much of a choice. He can't attack her youth and inexperience without sounding completely hypocritical.

[kareyn01]

she has more executive experience than obama has..


....but the thing that is finally sinking in with me is that after this election, we will EITHER have a black president or a female vice president. pretty amazing.

And the general manager of the local YMCA has more executive experience than either McCain or Obama. Every governor of Kentucky has had more executive experience than either candidate as well, and God help us all if any of them ever became president. Executive experience also didin't do much for George Bush.

Also, when asked last year about her feelings about the Iraq war, Palin said she hadn't "been paying much attention", didn't know much about it, but was following it on the local news. Add that to the fact that she didn't know what the VP actually did THREE MONTHS AGO, and this pick just gets better and better.

[Genius]

Hopefully someone turns the top of your head into a canoe....before it's too late.
I wish we had the option of only raising the taxes of anyone who still believes that Republicans exclusively cut taxes and Democrats exclusively raise taxes. Or that out of control deficit spending is preferable to a moderate tax increase. Or that spending tens of billions in taxpayer money to rebuild a country that our own military destroyed is righteous and a beacon of freedom and justice, but spending tens of billions in taxpayer money to insure our own people have access to adequate health care is communism and to be avoided at all costs. In short, I wish we could only raise YOUR taxes, specifically.

[freegood]

Not like he has much of a choice. He can't attack her youth and inexperience without sounding completely hypocritical.

He doesn't have to as long as Biden completely destroys her in a debate. I look forward to see Palin bat her eyes and display an Oh Gosh attitude to disarm the masses...

[Stax]

Hopefully someone turns the top of your head into a canoe....before it's too late.

lolwut?

[Hanover Fist]

He doesn't have to as long as Biden completely destroys her in a debate. I look forward to see Palin bat her eyes and display an Oh Gosh attitude to disarm the masses...


Based on Bidens track record I would say the odds of him beating Palin in a debate are equal to the odds of him saying something incredibly stupid that damages the Obama campaign.
Fortunately if the debate centers around the top concerns to American voters, which is energy and energy costs and the economy, Palin will probably run circles around Biden.

[Pharon]

He doesn't have to as long as Biden completely destroys her in a debate. I look forward to see Palin bat her eyes and display an Oh Gosh attitude to disarm the masses...
I doubt that even if Biden schools her completely - which, by the way he's expected to do and anything less will be a failure - will he bitch slap her worse than this, which is the biggest pwnage in the history of VP debates?

Tom Brokaw: Senator Quayle, I don't mean to beat this drum until it has no more sound in it. But to follow up on Brit Hume's question, when you said that it was a hypothetical situation, it is, sir, after all, the reason that we're here tonight, because you are running not just for Vice President — (Applause) — and if you cite the experience that you had in Congress, surely you must have some plan in mind about what you would do if it fell to you to become President of the United States, as it has to so many Vice Presidents just in the last 25 years or so.

Quayle: Let me try to answer the question one more time. I think this is the fourth time that I've had this question.

Brokaw: The third time.

Quayle: Three times that I've had this question — and I will try to answer it again for you, as clearly as I can, because the question you are asking is, "What kind of qualifications does Dan Quayle have to be president," "What kind of qualifications do I have," and "What would I do in this kind of a situation?" And what would I do in this situation? [...] I have far more experience than many others that sought the office of vice president of this country. I have as much experience in the Congress as Jack Kennedy did when he sought the presidency. I will be prepared to deal with the people in the Bush administration, if that unfortunate event would ever occur.

Judy Woodruff: Senator .

[B]Bentsen: Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy: I knew Jack Kennedy; Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy. (Prolonged shouts and applause) What has to be done in a situation like that is to call in the —

Woodruff: Please, please, once again you are only taking time away from your own candidate.

Quayle: That was really uncalled for, Senator. (Shouts and applause)

Bentsen: You are the one that was making the comparison, Senator — and I'm one who knew him well. And frankly I think you are so far apart in the objectives you choose for your country that I did not think the comparison was well-taken.
And remind me, again, which one became VP?

[Stax]

I doubt that even if Biden schools her completely - which, by the way he's expected to do and anything less will be a failure - will he bitch slap her worse than this, which is the biggest pwnage in the history of VP debates?


And remind me, again, which one became VP?

The one on the ticket that had already won as soon as the Dems nominated Dukakis.

[freegood]

Based on Bidens track record I would say the odds of him beating Palin in a debate are equal to the odds of him saying something incredibly stupid that damages the Obama campaign.
Fortunately if the debate centers around the top concerns to American voters, which is energy and energy costs and the economy, Palin will probably run circles around Biden.

ATM, I'd rather Biden say something ass stupid than some canned and phony lie to please a demographic that his pollsters tell him. As long as he's sincere and appear honest to the American people, it'll be difficult to make his mistakes hurt Obama than help Obama with Biden's appeal to character.

Yeah, I look forward to seeing how Palin's Alaskan energy policy translates to continental voters... Even if you were correct on that guess, Biden would be expected to run circles on foreign security.


So you've decided to vote Republican now? Haven't followed this forum as much lately...

[Hanover Fist]

The one on the ticket that had already won as soon as the Dems nominated Dukakis.

And who did Dukakis the failure beat to win the nomination? Oh yeah Joe Biden.

Dukakis also had a 17 point lead in the polls in weeks prior to the election, well after his nomination and this debate.

[Mr. Brown]

obama hates white people. he even said so in his book.
So he hates his mother and the family that helped raise him?

[Stax]

And who did Dukakis the failure beat to win the nomination? Oh yeah Joe Biden.

Dukakis also had a 17 point lead in the polls in weeks prior to the election, well after his nomination and this debate.

Dukakis lost as soon as the tank photo was published. The man lost by 8 points, 426-111. He was not doing ok leading up to the election. Bad debates hurt, but not that much.

[Pharon]

So he hates his mother and the family that helped raise him?
I'm guessing that was a joke. If not, mcnastasty is mistaken. Obama said nothing of the sort in either book.

[Mr. Brown]

I know he didn't say that and I doubt that mcnastasty was serious.

[Claydon]

I doubt that even if Biden schools her completely - which, by the way he's expected to do and anything less will be a failure - will he bitch slap her worse than this, which is the biggest pwnage in the history of VP debates?


And remind me, again, which one became VP?


Yah, we are all highly impressed with Bentsen (not really)..... but they still went down in flames as per the usual with the democrats and Presidental politics.

[Pharon]

My point was that you could suck tremendously in a VP debate and still win. Because they are meaningless and worthless. Like you.

[Claydon]

My point was that you could suck tremendously in a VP debate and still win. Because they are meaningless and worthless. Like you.


But but, he will have the VPILF!

so anyways, your point is valid, however I am extremely eager to see McCain in a debate against Obama. Even you have to admit that Obama crumps easily in unstructured formats whereas McCain does well on his feet.

God it is so fucking good to have a real race.

[Stax]

But but, he will have the VPILF!

so anyways, your point is valid, however I am extremely eager to see McCain in a debate against Obama. Even you have to admit that Obama crumps easily in unstructured formats whereas McCain does well on his feet.

God it is so fucking good to have a real race.

I have to admit that? Really? McCain does BETTER on his feet, but I dunno if I'd call it doing "well".

[Pharon]

so anyways, your point is valid, however I am extremely eager to see McCain in a debate against Obama. Even you have to admit that Obama crumps easily in unstructured formats whereas McCain does well on his feet.
Obama is much better now after honing his skills against Hillary for 8 months. Plus, McCain's argument is a losing one - he's fucked, because he's forced to support a flawed foreign policy plan that 80% of the country disagrees with. He's not starting on an even playing field, and Obama will be sure to capitalize on it.

Not to mention that McCain will get killed in any prepared speech format, as Obama is the best candidate in two generations on that front.

I'd also say it'll look like Yoda debating Luke, but Yoda is far more agile than McCain, so the analogy fails.

[Claydon]

I have to admit that? Really? McCain does BETTER on his feet, but I dunno if I'd call it doing "well".

actually I would say "well".

[Claydon]

Obama is much better now after honing his skills against Hillary for 8 months. Plus, McCain's argument is a losing one - he's fucked, because he's forced to support a flawed foreign policy plan that 80% of the country disagrees with. He's not starting on an even playing field, and Obama will be sure to capitalize on it.

Not to mention that McCain will get killed in any prepared speech format, as Obama is the best candidate in two generations on that front.

I'd also say it'll look like Yoda debating Luke, but Yoda is far more agile than McCain, so the analogy fails.

Let's wait until the first debate....and see what happens after Biden says something completely bafoonish.

[freegood]

Obama is much better now after honing his skills against Hillary for 8 months. Plus, McCain's argument is a losing one - he's fucked, because he's forced to support a flawed foreign policy plan that 80% of the country disagrees with. He's not starting on an even playing field, and Obama will be sure to capitalize on it.

Not to mention that McCain will get killed in any prepared speech format, as Obama is the best candidate in two generations on that front.

I'd also say it'll look like Yoda debating Luke, but Yoda is far more agile than McCain, so the analogy fails.

Obama is getting better in debates and free form speeches since the last 8 months. Dude might act arrogant, but he works hard to improve himself. Not many can pull off an acceptance speech in front of 75000 people and make that giant mob feel exclusive.

McCain's trump card in a debate (and it's a good one) is the, "I was rotting 5 years..." line whenever there's an attack on loyalty, hardship (even economic), or security. It's hard to respond from that without sounding douchey.

[Stax]

Obama is getting better in debates and free form speeches since the last 8 months. Dude might act arrogant, but he works hard to improve himself. Not many can pull off an acceptance speech in front of 75000 people and make that giant mob feel exclusive.

McCain's trump card in a debate (and it's a good one) is the, "I was rotting 5 years..." line whenever there's an attack on loyalty, hardship (even economic), or security. It's hard to respond from that without sounding douchey.

Who the hell is dumb enough to attack McCain's loyalty? Like every single speaker at the DNC honored his service and such.

[freegood]

Loyalty/patriotism/sacrifice....you'd be surprised how McCain could divert the conversation to it. Take for instance, his first debate to win his first seat as a Congressman...

It's a spring loaded trap.

[Rover]

Anyone have any theories on why her and not Kay Bailey Hutchinson? If it is a ploy or grandstanding why not go with someone that the base knows and loves?The base doesn't love her. She is pro-choice. Anyone who is pro-choice would have problems with the base. If this VP pick were solely an attempt to pick up disaffected Hillary voters, KBH would have been the pick.

This pick was an attempt to fire up the base and reinforce McCain's maverick/reformer image. It works on both accounts.
She's strictly a political decision. That's the only way she works. Otherwise it's a stupid move.Surprise!!!!!

Everything a politician does is political. Obama's selection of Biden was a political move to show he's got foreign policy experience.

But that was addressed in my second point. If the goal was to get the far-righters, there were far better choices.Wrong. There was nobody running this year in the GOP primary who appealed across the board to the base. I finally settled on Romney really late. There are other conservatives, both governors and Congressmen, that would appeal. But none of those would focus attention completely on the McCain campaign the day after Obama's speech.

You mean the DY-NO-MITE! move of selecting a candidate with only 20 months of gubernatorial political (and no foreign) experience who will only be one 72 year-old heartbeat away from being the President of the United States, thereby totally undercutting McCain's best argument against Obama by saying that Obama isn't ready to lead with his ten years of combined Illinois Senate and United States Senatorial experience?What's he got now? Like 150 working days in the Senate. Has he chaired a meeting of that subcommittee he leads, yet? As soon as Obama got to the Senate he started running for President. He's probably spent more time in Iowa and NH than in Washington DC.

Now its time to realize that McCain chose a VP who will get torn up in debates on national and foreign policy, that McCain just killed his best argument against Obama, and that this is a cheap political gimmick by the McCain camp to swing PUMA voters over to vote for them...

Yeah... thats not going to happen. This pick weakened the GOP ticket, and I for one am ecstatic about it.


You do realize that she is completely anti-gay, right?Maybe you could give her more than 12 hours before you state that she's completely unable to debate anyone on the issues. She's the governor of a state. There is the potential that she might be able to understand political issues. Not all women are idiots. The way you are continually promoting unfounded criticism against this woman is disturbing.

You might as well just say you don't think a woman can do a man's job and be truthful about it. Palin has been in elected office for 13 years. 2 years as governor of a state. An actual state. Like part of the United States. Maybe you could give her a month before you call her an idiot.

Seriously Sink, it's like you're auditioning for a spot on MSNBC.

This is pretty funny - Jack Cafferty throwing a hissy fit over the Palin choice:Jack Cafferty is never funny

[Stax]

Loyalty/patriotism/sacrifice....you'd be surprised how McCain could divert the conversation to it.

It's a spring loaded trap.

If McCain diverts conversation to it he comes off as the old coot broken record he already looks like.

"I believe drilling provides a short term, feel good solution to a problem that needs someone looking at the long view to really fix what's wrong."
"Senator your response"
"DAMN KIDS AND YOUR MUSIC! I DIDN'T ROT IN A CAGE FOR FIVE YEARS TO GET TALKED DOWN TO BY YOU, [insert moderator's name]"

[Stax]

Wrong. There was nobody running this year in the GOP primary who appealed across the board to the base. I finally settled on Romney really late. There are other conservatives, both governors and Congressmen, that would appeal. But none of those would focus attention completely on the McCain campaign the day after Obama's speech.

Who says you have to pick someone running, Palin didn't. Pawlenty >> Palin, Jindal > Palin, Romney (who did run) > Palin.

[freegood]

What's he got now? Like 150 working days in the Senate. Has he chaired a meeting of that subcommittee he leads, yet? As soon as Obama got to the Senate he started running for President. He's probably spent more time in Iowa and NH than in Washington DC.

You're giving the impression that it's very easy for a junior senator to learn the ropes of Washington AND propel himself to the presidency minus any scandals or embarrassments to himself or his office... All in 150 working days in the senate.

Has this ever happened before in the history of the US?

[Rover]

Pawlenty would not have pacified the base.

[Rover]

You're giving the impression that it's very easy for a junior senator to learn the ropes of Washington AND propel himself to the presidency minus any scandals or embarrassments to himself or his office... All in 150 working days in the senate.

Has this ever happened before in the history of the US?What ropes in Washington has he learned. What legislation has he passed? Ethics reform, something about nuclear proliferation, and something I can't remember.

Nobody's done what's he done because nobody's ever been that arrogant, that I can think of...except John Edwards, he tried this in 2004. "I just got elected to the Senate; I should be President now."
At least complete your term, show the voters something.

[Stax]

Kennedy, Lincoln.

Not the Senate, but still.

[Rover]

JFK had 6 years in the House and 7 in the Senate. Plus, the WWII experience. That's way, way more than Obama.

Lincoln never was elected to the Senate. He lost. He's an aberration anyway.

[freegood]

What ropes in Washington has he learned. What legislation has he passed? Ethics reform, something about nuclear proliferation, and something I can't remember.


I remembering doing a wiki search on this.
Obama's bipartisan efforts from wiki:

* he cosponsored the "Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_America_and_Orderly_Immigration_Act)" introduced by Sen. John McCain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain) (R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_%28United_States%29)-AZ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona)).[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama#cite_n ote-9) He later added three amendments to the "Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2006)", which passed the Senate in May 2006, but failed to gain majority support in the U.S. House of Representatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives).[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama#cite_n ote-10)

*In September 2006, Obama supported a related bill, the Secure Fence Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006), authorizing construction of fencing and other security improvements along the United States–Mexico border (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Mexico_border).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama#cite_n ote-11) President Bush signed the Secure Fence Act into law in October 2006, calling it "an important step toward immigration reform."[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama#cite_n ote-12)

*Partnering first with Sen. Dick Lugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Lugar) (R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_%28United_States%29)-IN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana)), and then with Sen. Tom Coburn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Coburn) (R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_%28United_States%29)-OK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma)), Obama successfully introduced two initiatives bearing his name. "Lugar-Obama" expands the Nunn-Lugar cooperative threat reduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunn-Lugar_Cooperative_Threat_Reduction) concept to conventional weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_weapon), including shoulder-fired missiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-portable_air-defense_systems) and anti-personnel mines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-personnel_mine).[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama#cite_n ote-14)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama#cite_n ote-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama#cite_n ote-16) The Lugar-Obama initiative subsequently received $48 million in funding.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama#cite_n ote-17)

*The "Coburn-Obama Transparency Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Funding_Accountability_and_Transparency_Ac t_of_2006)" provides for the web site USAspending.gov (http://usaspending.gov/), managed by the Office of Management and Budget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Management_and_Budget). The site lists all organizations receiving Federal funds from 2007 onward and provides breakdowns by the agency allocating the funds, the dollar amount given, and the purpose of the grant or contract.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama#cite_n ote-18)

*Later in 2007, Obama sponsored with Kit Bond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kit_Bond) (R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_%28United_States%29)-MO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri)) an amendment to the 2008 Defense Authorization Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act) adding safeguards for personality disorder military discharges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge), and calling for a review by the Government Accountability Office (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Accountability_Office) following reports that the procedure had been used inappropriately to reduce government costs.

*He sponsored the "Iran Sanctions Enabling Act" supporting divestment of state pension funds from Iran's oil and gas industry,[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_career_of_Barack_Obama#cite_n ote-29) and joined Chuck Hagel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Hagel) (R (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_%28United_States%29)-NE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska)) in introducing legislation to reduce risks of nuclear terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_terrorism).
Nobody's done what's he done because nobody's ever been that arrogant, that I can think of...except John Edwards, he tried this in 2004. "I just got elected to the Senate; I should be President now."
At least complete your term, show the voters something.

That's a good one. Because all politicians are humble and work hard for their dues. Oh no...Politicians have NO concept of ego or arrogance WHATSOEVER!!111

It's not like his political career is in a vacuum. He was a state Senator for 7 years and according to wiki, "Obama taught constitutional law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_law) at the University of Chicago Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago_Law_School) for twelve years, as a Lecturer for four years (1992–1996), and as a Senior Lecturer for eight years (1996–2004)."

The man is not a son of a rich family who had a political career thrusted upon him with old money connections and a political team cherry picked from his daddy's friends.

So Obama gambled on his surging popularity after two years. There was no doubt he had presidential ambition. He asked his colleagues on whether he should run, and you know the rest. In case you don't, he ran a tight primary campaign, out raised the Clinton machine, kept a higher morale than his counterpart (which eliminated media leaks). That resulted in an acceptance speech 40 million people saw on TV.

Edwards was on his way out. His Senate reelection chances looked bleak. He had nothing to lose and campaigned that way.

[Pharon]

JFK had 6 years in the House and 7 in the Senate. Plus, the WWII experience. That's way, way more than Obama.
Oh please. This whole "experience" argument is nonsense unless you look at the whole, including Obama's 7 years in the Illinois legislature (or does that not count at all?) and his 12 years as a Constitutional Law professor at the University of Chicago. Or his time doing grassroots community organizing -- Kennedy did none of that stuff, because he didn't have to -- his political career was handed to him on a silver platter by his father.

Also, I still don't understand why someone needs dozens of years of legislative experience to become President. It's a completely different branch of government altogether. And the people know it, which is why so few Senators have been elected President.

[Mr. Brown]

Nobody's done what's he done because nobody's ever been that arrogant,

Doesn't one have to have some sense of arrogance to think they can lead the country? As far as I know Washington was the only one who wanted to turn down the position.

[Claydon]

By the way, if you are going to post sources in this thread, attempt not to use Wikipedia as it has zero peer review and basically makes you look like a douche.

[Stax]

By the way, if you are going to post sources in this thread, attempt not to use Wikipedia as it has zero peer review and basically makes you look like a douche.

And if you're going to try to act superior, try to be original. He's not citing opinions from Wikipedia, he's citing basic facts like bills Obama cosponsored. You can shit on Wiki all you want, but not simply for BEING Wiki.

[Hanover Fist]

I have no problem with wiki, every one of their articles has footnotes and links. If you question the veracity it's quite simple to check the source article and determine from there. It's actually quite convenient as long as people are willing to take 1 step further than the entry itself.

[freegood]

Claydon can't grasp sourcing wiki for easily provable facts on a message board.

You can waste your time fact checking wiki Claydon, but you should hold off on the douchebaggery labels until you find an inconsistency on my wiki sourcing.

[dadaelus]

The base doesn't love her. She is pro-choice. Anyone who is pro-choice would have problems with the base. If this VP pick were solely an attempt to pick up disaffected Hillary voters, KBH would have been the pick.


Pro Choice? The NRLC gives her a 75% on their ProLife scale.
Look at a snapshot of her record:
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Kay_Bailey_Hutchison.htm

[Hanover Fist]

Pro Choice? The NRLC gives her a 75% on their ProLife scale.
Look at a snapshot of her record:
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Kay_Bailey_Hutchison.htm

Here is the Wiki on Kay Bailey just for Claydon:
Definitely not someone to galvanize the base McCain needs.
Abortion positions

Hutchison is against outlawing abortion.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Bailey_Hutchison#cite_note-4) She also believes that the decision of the United States Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Supreme_Court) in Roe v. Wade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade) was appropriate and secures a constitutional right, and that it should not be overturned.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Bailey_Hutchison#cite_note-5)
Hutchison is currently considered to be liberal on abortion issues, at least compared to most elected Republicans from Texas.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Although she has served on the Advisory Board of The Wish List (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wish_List_%28political_organization%29) (Women in the Senate and House) Political Action Committee, which contributes to pro-choice female Republican candidates for Congress, she is no longer on the board [12] (http://www.rnclife.org/faxnotes/2005/may05/05-05-06.html) and the PAC did not endorse her in 2006. [13] (http://www.thewishlist.org/2005-2006_Candidates.htm). In the past years NARAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NARAL) has given her ratings of 0%, 7%, 20%, and 0%, indicating that her voting record mostly favored enacting proposed abortion restrictions. [14] (http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0852103)
While in the Texas House of Representatives (1973 to 1977), Hutchison worked to protect rape victims from having their names published with Sarah Weddington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Weddington), the attorney who won the Roe v. Wade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade) case. She supports some abortion rights, but does not believe taxpayers should fund abortions. Hutchison has also endorsed parental notification laws [15] (http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/nation/07/26abortion.html) and in 2006 sponsored legislation to prevent minors from being transported across state lines to circumvent such laws.

[Claydon]

And if you're going to try to act superior, try to be original. He's not citing opinions from Wikipedia, he's citing basic facts like bills Obama cosponsored. You can shit on Wiki all you want, but not simply for BEING Wiki.

Not suggesting I am superior, just suggesting more legit sources should be cited. Rather than posting the wiki page, why not one of the footnotes.

Now, yes I know wiki is the convient source for a forum setting, however this thread is a bit above the rest say...OT or Post an Asian (a personal fav).

[Deadhead Derek]

Doesn't one have to have some sense of arrogance to think they can lead the country? As far as I know Washington was the only one who wanted to turn down the position.
and LBJ. " I will not seek, and will not accept the nomination..."

[Claydon]

and LBJ. " I will not seek, and will not accept the nomination..."

He did that because of the massive fiasco he had created in Vietnam.

[dadaelus]

Here is the Wiki on Kay Bailey just for Claydon:
Definitely not someone to galvanize the base McCain needs.
Abortion positions

Hutchison is against outlawing abortion.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Bailey_Hutchison#cite_note-4) She also believes that the decision of the United States Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Supreme_Court) in Roe v. Wade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade) was appropriate and secures a constitutional right, and that it should not be overturned.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Bailey_Hutchison#cite_note-5)
Hutchison is currently considered to be liberal on abortion issues, at least compared to most elected Republicans from Texas.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Although she has served on the Advisory Board of The Wish List (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wish_List_%28political_organization%29) (Women in the Senate and House) Political Action Committee, which contributes to pro-choice female Republican candidates for Congress, she is no longer on the board [12] (http://www.rnclife.org/faxnotes/2005/may05/05-05-06.html) and the PAC did not endorse her in 2006. [13] (http://www.thewishlist.org/2005-2006_Candidates.htm). In the past years NARAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NARAL) has given her ratings of 0%, 7%, 20%, and 0%, indicating that her voting record mostly favored enacting proposed abortion restrictions. [14] (http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0852103)
While in the Texas House of Representatives (1973 to 1977), Hutchison worked to protect rape victims from having their names published with Sarah Weddington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Weddington), the attorney who won the Roe v. Wade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade) case. She supports some abortion rights, but does not believe taxpayers should fund abortions. Hutchison has also endorsed parental notification laws [15] (http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/nation/07/26abortion.html) and in 2006 sponsored legislation to prevent minors from being transported across state lines to circumvent such laws.

Right. Which is why the 75% vs 100%. But she also had the experience and legislative history that McCain's campaign holds as critical. I think she would have been a stronger pick.

[Deadhead Derek]

He did that because of the massive fiasco he had created in Vietnam.
it was said that nobody since Washington had refused, I was pointing out that it had happened in my lifetime, regardless of the reasons.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Oh nooo, people calling Obama arrogant again. We get it guys, just call him an uppity ****** and be done with it.

[Genius]

I like his arrogance. Republicans have had a monopoly on it for the past decade, which I think has been one of the major reasons the Democrats have had trouble in elections.

[Deadhead Derek]

the other reason the dems have trouble is that in such a cakewalk election cycle, they bicker and divide themselves as a party, instead of uniting a year and a half ago around an heir apparent

[Stax]

the other reason the dems have trouble is that in such a cakewalk election cycle, they bicker and divide themselves as a party, instead of uniting a year and a half ago around an heir apparent

I agree, but to be fair the Republicans are usually the party that unite around an heir apparent, and even they had a pretty divided primary process. Dems obviously went on way longer, but still.

[Mr. Brown]

I love how their still showing the McCain ad calling Obama a celebrity and how he's gonna raise taxes while in turn getting the beauty queen to be his running mate.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Seriously Sink, it's like you're auditioning for a spot on MSNBC.



Lord knows he tried, but after all the food in the commissary went missing, he had to quickly leave under a cloud.

[Mustard]

I love how their still showing the McCain ad calling Obama a celebrity and how he's gonna raise taxes while in turn getting the beauty queen to be his running mate.
Its because the McCain campaign is trying to grasp for straws, since the best argument they had against Obama has just become null and void.

And yeah, Obama does intend to raise taxes... on the top 20% income earners, even though by 2012 even the top 20%ers taxes drop, just not as drastically. As for the other 80%, Obama actually proposes to lower taxes MORE than John McCain is offering.

That fucking Obama... what a cock sucker!!! [/sarcasm]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/images/2008/06/12/wsj_tax_chart.gif

[TheImpossibleMan]

I doubt that even if Biden schools her completely - which, by the way he's expected to do and anything less will be a failure - will he bitch slap her worse than this, which is the biggest pwnage in the history of VP debates?


And remind me, again, which one became VP?
If you don't think Biden owning Palin, or vice versa, will be relevant in a race this close, you're nuts.

[Desperado]

Looks like McCain lucked out.

Bush, Cheney to skip convention (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/31/bush-cheney-to-skip-convention/)
Posted: 11:16 AM ET
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/08/31/art.bush.ap.jpg Bush and Cheney are skipping the convention. Laura Bush will still attend.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif

(CNN) — President Bush and Vice President Cheney will skip the Republican Presidential Convention due to Hurricane Gustav, White House Press Secretary Dana Perino announced Sunday.
First Lady Laura Bush is still slated to attend.
Bush and Cheney were supposed to address the convention Monday evening

[Claydon]

Its because the McCain campaign is trying to grasp for straws, since the best argument they had against Obama has just become null and void.

And yeah, Obama does intend to raise taxes... on the top 20% income earners, even though by 2012 even the top 20%ers taxes drop, just not as drastically. As for the other 80%, Obama actually proposes to lower taxes MORE than John McCain is offering.

That fucking Obama... what a cock sucker!!! [/sarcasm]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/images/2008/06/12/wsj_tax_chart.gif


Polling indicates that obama and mccain are in a stastitical dead heat, so it would seem to me that both are grasping at straws.

[Hanover Fist]

Well this is one that TiM should appreciate:
068_1220191935

[Mustard]

Polling indicates that obama and mccain are in a stastitical dead heat, so it would seem to me that both are grasping at straws.
OH LAWLS! The guy who doesn't give a shit about polling and says that we shouldn't take polling seriously before the election just cited polling before the election as a reason that both candidates are grasping for straws...

You are so full of shit Claydon.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Well this is one that TiM should appreciate:
068_1220191935
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Pharon]

Looks like McCain lucked out.(CNN) — President Bush and Vice President Cheney will skip the Republican Presidential Convention due to Hurricane Gustav, White House Press Secretary Dana Perino announced Sunday.
Yeah, sure it's because of the hurricane.

[Claydon]

It would seem that Sink cannot handle anything that goes against what he 'believes'. Mighty conservative of you sink. Polling is flawed and I never said I don't give a shit about it, but I have often said "take it for what it is worth...". For all the accolades and the masses at the obama rally he cannot seem to get all that far ahead of McCain. Now, this may change quite a bit with the upcoming debates etc, but the democrats have lost in the past when everything was in their favor.

[BIG PIZZLE]

I think the problem with the polling is that they are polling the same way they did 50 years ago. Most of Obama's supporters (college kids, internet geeks) may not be hit by those polls. Just a theory but it may be a valid one. And claydon is full of shit.

[Claydon]

I think the problem with the polling is that they are polling the same way they did 50 years ago. Most of Obama's supporters (college kids, internet geeks) may not be hit by those polls. Just a theory but it may be a valid one. And claydon is full of shit.

we should start a thread about this, is polling worth a damn? Now, as to the statement about it being done the same way it has been done for 50 years, that would be inaccurate. Modern software/computers are used to produce results and the polling is done not just by phone but by pollsters that will continue to knock on your door and call you until you basically give in. Which of course can skew the results as well. I will do some digging as to how gallup and a few others do their polling, although I suspect their methods are probably trade secrets.

[Rover]

I think the problem with the polling is that they are polling the same way they did 50 years ago. Most of Obama's supporters (college kids, internet geeks) may not be hit by those polls. Just a theory but it may be a valid one. And claydon is full of shit.There are challenges to polling today that weren't present 50 years ago (like cell phones), but the pollsters are trying solving that through methods and the way they weigh the results.

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/cell_phones_and_political_surv.php



Zogby's latest poll (http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/31/zogby-poll-puts-mccain-palin-in-lead/):
McCain/Palin - 47%
Obama/Biden - 45%

I watched the McCain rally in PA yesterday. The thing that struck me most was how energized McCain looked. That's not intended to be a swipe at his age. He just looked enthusiastic. And he seemed to be solidifying his message of reform that he used in 2000. Obama is going to have a tough time going up against an actual reformer. A problem his 'change' message didn't have to compete with in the Dem. primaries.

It's going to be more a message of actual reform versus promises of change. It'll be tough for Obama to hold up his promises and wishes and hopes against 2 people who have proven reform records.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

OH LAWLS! The guy who doesn't give a shit about polling and says that we shouldn't take polling seriously before the election just cited polling before the election as a reason that both candidates are grasping for straws...

You are so full of shit Claydon.

Ease up Fatman, he's only doing the same thing you do....he simply beat you to this one is all.

Happy chowing...

[Axel]

How much is this (still) relevant? [/ignorant U-ropean]:

[Gallup]: Obama 49%, McCain 40% (http://www.google.si/url?q=http://www.gallup.com/poll/109102/gallup-daily-obama-49-mccain-40.aspx&sa=X&oi=smap&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=6&usg=AFQjCNFpm1rXGLdrN0w2IbLMdiewTDS5VA)

PRINCETON, NJ -- Barack Obama now leads John McCain among national registered voters by a 49% to 40% margin in Gallup Poll Daily tracking (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Gallup%2bDaily.aspx) conducted July 24-26.

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080727DailyUpdateGraph1_yyyytttt.gif

[Claydon]

How much is this (still) relevant? [/ignorant U-ropean]:

[Gallup]: Obama 49%, McCain 40% (http://www.google.si/url?q=http://www.gallup.com/poll/109102/gallup-daily-obama-49-mccain-40.aspx&sa=X&oi=smap&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=6&usg=AFQjCNFpm1rXGLdrN0w2IbLMdiewTDS5VA)

PRINCETON, NJ -- Barack Obama now leads John McCain among national registered voters by a 49% to 40% margin in Gallup Poll Daily tracking (http://www.gallup.com/tag/Gallup%2bDaily.aspx) conducted July 24-26.

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/080727DailyUpdateGraph1_yyyytttt.gif

So that is from late july? surely they have a more recent poll say during the dem convention or just following. I am sure we will see some data following the McCain choice for VPILF.

[Axel]

Gahhh, here's the lattest Gallup's pool (Aug. 30):

http://www.gallup.com/poll/election2008.aspx

http://media.gallup.com/poll/graphs/election2008_HP_1.gif

[Rover]

Polls don't become relevant until a few weeks after both candidates have their conventions. Obama's last week. McCain's this week. Both will get popularity bumps and things will have to settle.

The biggest concern with the poll you posted for Obama would be that he still hasn't broken through the 50% barrier. Even after 40 million people watched his acceptance speech.

[Claydon]

Yah that poll makes perfect sense to me Axel, having come off of their convention it is normal for him to get a bump. I am sure we will see the same thing with the republican ticket, the real test will be the debates.

[BIG PIZZLE]

So you're saying she's not that experienced?

[Hanover Fist]

So you're saying she's not that experienced?


Most likely just in the ways of the good ol' boy network that Biden has become enmeshed in in his 35 years in the Senate.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Most likely just in the ways of the good ol' boy network that Biden has become enmeshed in in his 35 years in the Senate.

Dont forget McCain too. Plus you seem to have picked up her vernacular nicely. Way to tow the like.

[Hanover Fist]

Dont forget McCain too. Plus you seem to have picked up her vernacular nicely. Way to tow the like.


Tow the like? Is that some sort of tricky doctor/lawyer/astronaut speak for "toe the line"?

[Claydon]

Tow the like? Is that some sort of tricky doctor/lawyer/astronaut speak for "toe the line"?

No...he was mixing up his farsi/arabic.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Wow, racism from conservatives. That's a surprise.

[freegood]

So it's like she was in charge of a mildly retarded city and made it even more retarded?

A retard renovation to keep up with the times.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Anyone know where I can see a long, uninterupted video of McCain introducing Palin? Like, the speech leading up to the introduction, plus her opening speech, plus reactions after the fact?

[Claydon]

Anyone know where I can see a long, uninterupted video of McCain introducing Palin? Like, the speech leading up to the introduction, plus her opening speech, plus reactions after the fact?

cspan

[Pharon]

No McCain long intro, but this seems to be her whole speech:

Part 1:

fLcc3C-80Hg

Part 2:

YUwvl2A32jY

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Wow, racism from conservatives. That's a surprise.

Assuming sarcasm here, does that mean that most black people can be construed as conservative?

[Mustard]

Its because the McCain campaign is trying to grasp for straws, since the best argument they had against Obama has just become null and void.

And yeah, Obama does intend to raise taxes... on the top 20% income earners, even though by 2012 even the top 20%ers taxes drop, just not as drastically. As for the other 80%, Obama actually proposes to lower taxes MORE than John McCain is offering.

That fucking Obama... what a cock sucker!!! [/sarcasm]

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/images/2008/06/12/wsj_tax_chart.gif
I am reposting this because it go no response... which tells me something.

Apparently you cons are speechless given the fact that Obama will actually save you more money than McCain if he gets into office. That is unless you happen to make more than $111K/year... but with the usual suspects in mind I'm thinking that isn't likely.

It looks like little ole me is going to save a little over $1000 in 2009 taxes if Obama takes office. That is opposed to the approximately $150 I would save with McCain... Wait a minute. That $1000 is more than I got from my Chinese Stimulus courtesy of the shrub. And I'd get that every year for the next four years with Obama? Gee... thats a tough decision...

So go ahead and vote McCain and vote against your wallet's best interest. Again.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Assuming sarcasm here, does that mean that most black people can be construed as conservative?
...? Black people vote 9-to-1 with the Democratic party.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

...? Black people vote 9-to-1 with the Democratic party.

You missed my jab at Pizzle...

It's been my experience that black people are amongst the most racist of ethnic groups, and since the Pizz was sarcastically lumping right-wingers into that group, well.....

I'm well aware how they vote. Why bite the hand that feeds ya?

[freegood]

Long story short... Dem presidency- Increased GNP, decreased class inequality gap
Repub presidency- Decreased GNP, higher class inequality gap

Is History Siding With Obama’s Economic Plan? (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/business/31view.html?em)

By ALAN S. BLINDER
Published: August 30, 2008
CLEARLY, there are major differences between the economic policies of Senators Barack Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and John McCain (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/john_mccain/index.html?inline=nyt-per). Mr. McCain wants more tax cuts for the rich; Mr. Obama wants tax cuts for the poor and middle class. The two men also disagree on health care, energy and many other topics.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/31/business/0831-sbn-webVIEW.gif


Such differences are hardly surprising. Democrats and Republicans have followed different approaches to the economy for as long as there have been Democrats and Republicans. Longer, actually. Remember Hamilton versus Jefferson?

Many Americans know that there are characteristic policy differences between the two parties. But few are aware of two important facts about the post-World War II era, both of which are brilliantly delineated in a new book, “Unequal Democracy,” by Larry M. Bartels, a professor of political science at Princeton. Understanding them might help voters see what could be at stake, economically speaking, in November.

I call the first fact the Great Partisan Growth Divide. Simply put, the United States economy has grown faster, on average, under Democratic presidents than under Republicans.

The stark contrast between the whiz-bang Clinton years and the dreary Bush years is familiar because it is so recent. But while it is extreme, it is not atypical. Data for the whole period from 1948 to 2007, during which Republicans occupied the White House for 34 years and Democrats for 26, show average annual growth of real gross national product (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/u/united_states_economy/gross_national_product/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) of 1.64 percent per capita under Republican presidents versus 2.78 percent under Democrats.

That 1.14-point difference, if maintained for eight years, would yield 9.33 percent more income per person, which is a lot more than almost anyone can expect from a tax cut.

Such a large historical gap in economic performance between the two parties is rather surprising, because presidents have limited leverage over the nation’s economy. Most economists will tell you that Federal Reserve policy and oil prices, to name just two influences, are far more powerful than fiscal policy. Furthermore, as those mutual fund prospectuses constantly warn us, past results are no guarantee of future performance. But statistical regularities, like facts, are stubborn things. You bet against them at your peril.

The second big historical fact, which might be called the Great Partisan Inequality Divide, is the focus of Professor Bartels’s work.
It is well known that income inequality (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/i/income/income_inequality/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) in the United States has been on the rise for about 30 years now — an unsettling development that has finally touched the public consciousness. But Professor Bartels unearths a stunning statistical regularity: Over the entire 60-year period, income inequality trended substantially upward under Republican presidents but slightly downward under Democrats, thus accounting for the widening income gaps over all. And the bad news for America’s poor is that Republicans have won five of the seven elections going back to 1980.

The Great Partisan Inequality Divide is not limited to the poor. To get a more granular look, Professor Bartels studied the postwar history of income gains at five different places in the income distribution.
The 20th percentile is the income level at which 20 percent of all families have less income and 80 percent have more. It is thus a plausible dividing line between the poor and the nonpoor. Similarly, the 40th percentile is the income level at which 40 percent of the families are poorer and 60 percent are richer. And similarly for the 60th, 80th, and 95th percentiles. The 95th percentile is the best dividing line between the rich and the nonrich that the data permitted Professor Bartels to study. (That dividing line, by the way, is well below the $5 million threshold John McCain has jokingly used for defining the rich. It’s closer to $180,000.)

The accompanying table, which is adapted from the book, tells a remarkably consistent story. It shows that when Democrats were in the White House, lower-income families experienced slightly faster income growth than higher-income families — which means that incomes were equalizing. In stark contrast, it also shows much faster income growth for the better-off when Republicans were in the White House — thus widening the gap in income.

The table also shows that families at the 95th percentile fared almost as well under Republican presidents as under Democrats (1.90 percent growth per year, versus 2.12 percent), giving them little stake, economically, in election outcomes. But the stakes were enormous for the less well-to-do. Families at the 20th percentile fared much worse under Republicans than under Democrats (0.43 percent versus 2.64 percent). Eight years of growth at an annual rate of 0.43 percent increases a family’s income by just 3.5 percent, while eight years of growth at 2.64 percent raises it by 23.2 percent.

The sources of such large differences make for a slightly complicated story. In the early part of the period — say, the pre-Reagan years — the Great Partisan Growth Divide accounted for most of the Great Partisan Inequality divide, because the poor do relatively better in a high-growth economy.

Beginning with the Reagan presidency, however, growth differences are smaller and tax and transfer policies have played a larger role. We know, for example, that Republicans have typically favored large tax cuts for upper-income groups while Democrats have opposed them. In addition, Democrats have been more willing to raise the minimum wage, and Republicans have been more hostile toward unions.

The two Great Partisan Divides combine to suggest that, if history is a guide, an Obama victory in November would lead to faster economic growth with less inequality, while a McCain victory would lead to slower economic growth with more inequality. Which part of the Obama menu don’t you like?

Alan S. Blinder is a professor of economics and public affairs at Princeton and former vice chairman of the Federal Reserve. He has advised many Democratic politicians.

[Le Goat]

Im posting this 'cause it really gives a clear idea of what's voting for him

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b178/chknfaqr/2ee43df1.png

[Claydon]

the ny times...

ahhh yes.

[Mr. Brown]

the ny times...

ahhh yes.
what does that mean?

[Creepnation]

,,,,

[freegood]

what does that mean?

It means Claydon can't read so he has others tell him what's good and what's bad.

He can sniff out a mean book cover though.

[Claydon]

It means Claydon can't read so he has others tell him what's good and what's bad.

He can sniff out a mean book cover though.

What it means idiot is that I am not surprised that such a story came from the NY Times, just as I would not be surprised if a story about the greatness of a bush policy would come from Fox News.

[freegood]

Oh please, I don't get my panties in a bunch when someone posts an op/ed from the WSJ just because it's from the WSJ. The article was written from a former Fed vice chairman. Post some sources saying why you disagree with the topic.

Step up to the plate or STFUGTFO.

In the meanwhile, continue crying in the corner with your Nancy neg reps.

Tool

[vasili denisov]

Im posting this 'cause it really gives a clear idea of what's voting for him

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b178/chknfaqr/2ee43df1.png
It's astonishing how well that captures the speaking style of Scarlett Johansson.

[Axel]

Im posting this 'cause it really gives a clear idea of what's voting for him

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b178/chknfaqr/2ee43df1.pngSo far I trusted to a guy who fucks my sister – he says he’ll marry her some day - but hey, that about my g/f is novel to me.

Is this a reliable source?





P.S.: racism is mostly about cock envy, anyway.

[Mustard]

Wouldn't that be cockism?

[Axel]

white suprematism = inferior cockism

[kareyn01]

This is laughable. In none of the articles is Palin even mentioned except in the New Republic. The USA today mentions her in the caption of the picture, but goes on to say how she is working to get rid of some of the earmarks. In the Frontiersman, she is only mentioned in the comments of readers.

Basically, this is fabrication and twisting the facts. It's the kind of thing they used to do in witch hunts.

1) The Wasilla sports complex was Palin's baby, and the land purchase that led to the eminent domain lawsuit was under her administration.

2) The budget figures for Wasilla and Alaska under her administrations speak for themselves.

3) The fact that she originally supported the Bridge to Nowhere, before lying about it in HER FIRST SPEECH as the Republican VP nominee also speaks for itself.

4) The earmark figures also speak for themselves. The fact that she claims to be against pork barrel spending, and yet her state is first in that category, speaks either to her effectiveness enacting her own policies, or if not, to her actual lack of interest in reducing government spending (which, given her city and state budget figures, looks extremely likely).

Please explain to me how any of that is "laughable" or "a distortion".

[FarEastFornicator]

You guys are talking way too much about polls and statics and are forgetting about image - The McCain/Palin speeches I just witnessed were so awful and the crowd noises so annoying, and McCain was so old and Palin's voice was so housemother bitchy. The image is what counts and Obama will destroy the opposition for speeches as well as debates.

[Void]

Looks like abstinence-only sex-ed works in Alaska!

[Mustard]

Looks like abstinence-only sex-ed works in Alaska!
...at family building.

[Mustard]

This really doesn't mean anything except for its intrinsic irony value:

Hj6cPE8zmlE

Remember that guy praying for rain during Obama's acceptance speech? Well... God didn't oblige that request, and the night went off w/o a hitch.

Enter the RNC meeting today for the first day... and oddly enough, McCain decided to cut it short because of rain in the form of Hurricane Gustav. If that wasn't enough, now there is another Hurricane (Hanna this time) set to make landfall in South Carolina on the same day McCain gives his acceptance speech, probably further distracting the nation from McCain and the RNC and putting more attention on South Carolina and Hanna making landfall.

Clearly these hurricanes are awful... but I can't help but ponder the irony of a right wing toolbag advocating people to pray for torrential rain during the DNC, but then the US gets hit with two hurricanes in the span of the four day RNC...

It just really makes you go.... hmm?

[Claydon]

Wow, you are quite a Sage there sink.

So hurricanes are hitting the US in September when the RNC meets.

impressive....most impressive

[kareyn01]

Wow, you are quite a Sage there sink.

So hurricanes are hitting the US in September when the RNC meets.

impressive....most impressive

Its right up there with John Hagee claiming Katrina was God's punishment for New Orleans holding a gay pride parade. THEY WERE BOTH RIGHT! Lottery numbers?