2008 Election - Offseason

[Claydon]

Its right up there with John Hagee claiming Katrina was God's punishment for New Orleans holding a gay pride parade. THEY WERE BOTH RIGHT! Lottery numbers?

Anyone who attempts to tie in natural disasters, or wonders (comets etc) in with politics, even if it is meant as 'irony' is just a complete dipshit.

[kareyn01]

Anyone who attempts to tie in natural disasters, or wonders (comets etc) in with politics, even if it is meant as 'irony' is just a complete dipshit.

I shouldn't really have to post anything saying that I agree with something so obvious (Hagee and this guy praying for rain to drown Obama in Denver are douchebags), but I agree with you so rarely that it deserves to be mentioned.

[Mustard]

Anyone who attempts to tie in natural disasters, or wonders (comets etc) in with politics, even if it is meant as 'irony' is just a complete dipshit.
Looks like you just called all of the people in the religious right who prayed for rain "complete dipshits" then...

Why do you hate your ilk so much?

[Claydon]

I shouldn't really have to post anything saying that I agree with something so obvious (Hagee and this guy praying for rain to drown Obama in Denver are douchebags), but I agree with you so rarely that it deserves to be mentioned.

Im not making out with you.

[Claydon]

Looks like you just called all of the people in the religious right who prayed for rain "complete dipshits" then...

Why do you hate your ilk so much?

Sink represents all that is wrong with US politics. The extremes of the party are in control (on both sides). To tie me in with religious tards is truly laughable. I am right of center not a borderline facist. If you want to argue with extremes, let me introduce you to the Ethnocentric professor of GMF...archangel. Extremes tend to attract... you 2 can share cups of hot fat together.

[Mustard]

Yes... I (the pro-gun liberal) is SOOOO extreme! WATCH OUT! BE AFRAID OF ME!!!

[BIG PIZZLE]

If you think about Palin's baby moma drama, it may actually help her with Hilary voters. She's now got wite-trash cred.

[Claydon]

Yes... I (the pro-gun liberal) is SOOOO extreme! WATCH OUT! BE AFRAID OF ME!!!

You are the one going on and on about her daughter's pregnancy. Seems like you took your marching orders this weekend from the extreme left blogs.

[Claydon]

If you think about Palin's baby moma drama, it may actually help her with Hilary voters. She's now got wite-trash cred.

haha!

[Mustard]

Yes, because Palin has so little else to debate policy wise that debating her character is all we really have left yet to discuss.

For the 144th time...

[Claydon]

Yes, because Palin has so little else to debate policy wise that debating her character is all we really have left yet to discuss.

For the 144th time...

it's hard living from news cycle to news cycle isnt it?

[Mustard]

I see that you are in agreement with my point by not refuting it.

[BIG PIZZLE]

haha!

It's funny becasuse it's true.

[Claydon]

It's funny becasuse it's true.

sorta...... being 17, 18 and knocked up is a lot more common that you may realize. You and I come from urban areas where it is generally discouraged, my wife's extended family is in Nebraska and Iowa, and if you are not married and knocked up by 20 people look at you funny. Not saying I agree with her daughter getting knocked up at 17, just saying I am not surprised seeing how they are from a rural area.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Im posting this 'cause it really gives a clear idea of what's voting for him

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b178/chknfaqr/2ee43df1.png


http://i38.tinypic.com/t7lwnm.jpg

[Mustard]

I don't get it.

[kareyn01]

So the first Gallup and Rasmussen polls that take the Palin selection into effect show that Palin is actually getting LESS support from women than she is men (9% of women say the pick makes them more likely to vote McCain, 15% say less so; http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003844485).

That's kind of a big deal since a McCain aide said this:

"We either get Hillary's voters and we win, or we don't. It's not a mystery."

[Claydon]

So the first Gallup and Rasmussen polls that take the Palin selection into effect show that Palin is actually getting LESS support from women than she is men (9% of women say the pick makes them more likely to vote McCain, 15% say less so; http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003844485).

That's kind of a big deal since a McCain aide said this:

"We either get Hillary's voters and we win, or we don't. It's not a mystery."

Yah I saw that poll, I am going to wait until she has performed a bit more before taking those polls seriously.

[BIG PIZZLE]

It seems the last time she performed, she made a retarded baby.

[Claydon]

It seems the last time she performed, she made a retarded baby.

zing!

[Mustard]

It seems the last time she performed, she made a retarded baby.
or did she... [/stuipd conspiracy]

[freegood]

It seems the last time she performed, she made a retarded baby.

And the first time gave her a tramp who didn't like or know how to use condoms.

[Claydon]

And the first time gave her a tramp who didn't like or know how to use condoms.

Judge not, lest ye be judged?

[Mustard]

And the first time gave her a tramp who didn't like or know how to use condoms.
Its a shame the poor girl didn't watch Seinfeld and learn from Elaine...

[BIG PIZZLE]

Condoms are for heathens.

[freegood]

Judge not, lest ye be judged?

Is that the religious right's motto these days?

Because the 180 coming from right wing and moral conservatives pundits is paper thin and amusing.

[Claydon]

Condoms are for heathens.

and mongo

[bk3030]

Its a shame the poor girl didn't watch Seinfeld and learn from Elaine...

http://images.meredith.com/parents/images/2007/08/p_TodaySponge1.jpg

[Claydon]

Is that the religious right's motto these days?

Because the 180 coming from right wing and moral conservatives pundits is paper thin and amusing.

:rolleyes:

[Claydon]

im allergic to nonoxynol-9

true story

[Mustard]

http://images.meredith.com/parents/images/2007/08/p_TodaySponge1.jpg
I'm glad somebody got that reference!

[freegood]

Its a shame the poor girl didn't watch Seinfeld and learn from Elaine...

Palin brought the lock down with the V-Chip. No Satan vision for her babies.

[Claydon]

ill answer that in a pm

[Claydon]

Palin brought the lock down with the V-Chip. No Satan vision for her babies.

didn't al gore promote that lame thing?

[Mr. Brown]

Hey I fully support the V chip they come out with so many shows parents can't keep up

[Mustard]

Palin brought the lock down with the V-Chip. No Satan vision for her babies.
plenty of sperm-o-vision tho...

[freegood]

Since McCain knew about Palin's daughter being pregnant, I bet he got a kick out of how pleased Moral conservatives were with the pick at first and now have to pull off a shit faced grin with the less than savory gossip floating around.

Never knew Johnny was into the ol donkey punch.

[Smokestack]

By the way, if you are going to post sources in this thread, attempt not to use Wikipedia as it has zero peer review and basically makes you look like a douche.

Agreed...you can get all kinds of conveniently altered misinformation from Wikipedia:

Palin's Wikipedia Entry Gets Overhaul

by Yuki Noguchi
Listen Now (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:NPR.Player.openPlayer%2894118849,%2094120098, %20null,%20NPR.Player.Action.PLAY_NOW,%20NPR.Playe r.Type.STORY,%20%270%27%29) [3 min 28 sec] add to playlist (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:NPR.Player.openPlayer%2894118849,%2094120098, %20null,%20NPR.Player.Action.ADD_TO_PLAYLIST,%20NP R.Player.Type.STORY,%20%270%27%29)


All Things Considered (http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=2), August 29, 2008 · If you happened to check Sarah Palin's Wikipedia entry Thursday, you might have had a good tip about Friday's announcement.
Someone — and apparently it was just one person — felt like the existing biography wasn't appropriate for a vice-presidential candidate.
On Friday, 15 minutes before the rumor that John McCain had picked Palin as his running mate, a Wikipedia editor discovered 30 mostly favorable changes had been made to the Alaska governor's profile.
She was called "a politician of eye-popping integrity" and sections on her participation in a beauty pageant and her alleged use of influence to get her former brother-in-law fired were diminished.
Wikipedia is now restricting who can alter Palin's page.

[freegood]

McCain wants to tap it.
1RN5xbWtNSU


Agreed...you can get all kinds of conveniently altered misinformation from Wikipedia:


I assume people know the difference when Wiki posts facts and opinion. I'm not going to search for the same facts when Wiki does it just as well. Like others have mentioned, checking out the footnotes gives you a good idea on how credible the fact is.

To me, dismissing all of wiki as a research resource is simple minded.

[Ocelot]

On the subject of Youtube and Wikipedia- An interesting angle of McCain's journey to the white house, summed up in just over a minute. I think they should edit one down from Obama's perspective as well.

6OjRHz1kUDM

[Mustard]

McCain wants to tap it.
1RN5xbWtNSU




I assume people know the difference when Wiki posts facts and opinion. I'm not going to search for the same facts when Wiki does it just as well. Like others have mentioned, checking out the footnotes gives you a good idea on how credible the fact is.

To me, dismissing all of wiki as a research resource is simple minded.
Well... Just remember that for over 5 years John McCain didn't have the option to stare at boobies while running for the office of President of the United States.

[freegood]

Damn straight. The man has earned his right to be a open pervert.

[vasili denisov]

According to its chairman, Palin was a member of the Alaskan Independence Party (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/members-of-frin.html), whose platform includes a vote for state secession.

Introduction she recorded for the party's convention.

ZwvPNXYrIyI

[freegood]

Uh oh. Another NYT story... Claydon cover your eyes up with some preserves. That way you can savor the burn.

Disclosures on Palin Raise Questions on Vetting Process (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/us/politics/02vetting.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print)
By ELISABETH BUMILLER

ST. PAUL — A series of disclosures about Gov. Sarah Palin, Senator John McCain’s choice as running mate, called into question on Monday how thoroughly Mr. McCain had examined her background before putting her on the Republican presidential ticket.

On Monday morning, Ms. Palin and her husband, Todd, issued a statement saying that their 17-year-old unmarried daughter, Bristol, was five months pregnant and that she intended to marry the father.

Among other less attention-grabbing news of the day: it was learned that Ms. Palin now has a private lawyer in a legislative ethics investigation in Alaska into whether she abused her power in dismissing the state’s public safety commissioner; that she was a member for two years in the 1990s of the Alaska Independence Party, which has at times sought a vote on whether the state should secede; and that Mr. Palin was arrested 22 years ago on a drunken-driving charge.

Aides to Mr. McCain said they had a team on the ground in Alaska now to look more thoroughly into Ms. Palin’s background. A Republican with ties to the campaign said the team assigned to vet Ms. Palin in Alaska had not arrived there until Thursday, a day before Mr. McCain stunned the political world with his vice-presidential choice. The campaign was still calling Republican operatives as late as Sunday night asking them to go to Alaska to deal with the unexpected candidacy of Ms. Palin.

Although the McCain campaign said that Mr. McCain had known about Bristol Palin’s pregnancy before he asked her mother to join him on the ticket and that he did not consider it disqualifying, top aides were vague on Monday about how and when he had learned of the pregnancy, and from whom.

While there was no sign that her formal nomination this week was in jeopardy, the questions swirling around Ms. Palin on the first day of the Republican National Convention, already disrupted by Hurricane Gustav, brought anxiety to Republicans who worried that Democrats would use the selection of Ms. Palin to question Mr. McCain’s judgment and his ability to make crucial decisions.

At the least, Republicans close to the campaign said it was increasingly apparent that Ms. Palin had been selected as Mr. McCain’s running mate with more haste than McCain advisers initially described.

Up until midweek last week, some 48 to 72 hours before Mr. McCain introduced Ms. Palin at a Friday rally in Dayton, Ohio, Mr. McCain was still holding out the hope that he could choose a good friend, Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, independent of Connecticut, a Republican close to the campaign said. Mr. McCain had also been interested in another favorite, former Gov. Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania.

But both men favor abortion rights, anathema to the Christian conservatives who make up a crucial base of the Republican Party. As word leaked out that Mr. McCain was seriously considering the men, the campaign was bombarded by outrage from influential conservatives who predicted an explosive floor fight at the convention and vowed rejection of Mr. Ridge or Mr. Lieberman by the delegates.

Perhaps more important, several Republicans said, Mr. McCain was getting advice that if he did not do something to shake up the race, his campaign would be stuck on a potentially losing trajectory.

With time running out — and as Mr. McCain discarded two safer choices, Gov. Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota and former Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts, as too predictable — he turned to Ms. Palin. He had his first face-to-face interview with her on Thursday and offered her the job moments later. Advisers to Mr. Pawlenty and another of the finalists on Mr. McCain’s list described an intensive vetting process for those candidates that lasted one to two months.

“They didn’t seriously consider her until four or five days from the time she was picked, before she was asked, maybe the Thursday or Friday before,” said a Republican close to the campaign. “This was really kind of rushed at the end, because John didn’t get what he wanted. He wanted to do Joe or Ridge.”

In the final stages, two Republicans familiar with the process said, Mr. McCain’s campaign manager, Rick Davis, emerged as a key advocate for Ms. Palin.

Mr. McCain’s advisers said repeatedly on Monday that Ms. Palin was “thoroughly vetted,” a process that would have included a review of all financial and legal records as well as a criminal background check. A McCain aide said the campaign was well aware of the ethics investigation and had looked into it.

“It was obviously something that anybody Googling Sarah Palin knew was in the news and there was a very thorough vetting done on that and also on the daughter,” the aide said.

People familiar with the process said Ms. Palin had responded to a standard form with more than 70 questions. Although The Washington Post quoted advisers to Mr. McCain on Sunday as saying Ms. Palin had been subjected to an F.B.I. background check, an F.B.I. official said Monday the bureau did not vet potential candidates and had not known of her selection until it was made public.

Mark Salter, Mr. McCain’s closest adviser, said in an e-mail message that Ms. Palin had been interviewed by Arthur B. Culvahouse Jr., a veteran Washington lawyer in charge of the vice-presidential vetting process for Mr. McCain, as well as by other lawyers who worked for Mr. Culvahouse. Mr. Salter did not respond to an e-mail message asking if Ms. Palin had told Mr. Culvahouse and his lawyers that her daughter was pregnant.

In Alaska, several state leaders and local officials said they knew of no efforts by the McCain campaign to find out more information about Ms. Palin before the announcement of her selection, Although campaigns are typically discreet when they make inquiries into potential running mates, officials in Alaska said Monday they thought it was peculiar that no one in the state had the slightest hint that Ms. Palin might be under consideration.

“They didn’t speak to anyone in the Legislature, they didn’t speak to anyone in the business community,” said Lyda Green, the State Senate president, who lives in Wasilla, where Ms. Palin served as mayor.

Representative Gail Phillips, a Republican and former speaker of the State House, said the widespread surprise in Alaska when Ms. Palin was named to the ticket made her wonder how intensively the McCain campaign had vetted her.

“I started calling around and asking, and I have not been able to find one person that was called,” Ms. Phillips said. “I called 30 to 40 people, political leaders, business leaders, community leaders. Not one of them had heard. Alaska is a very small community, we know people all over, but I haven’t found anybody who was asked anything.”

The current mayor of Wasilla, Dianne M. Keller, said she had not heard of any efforts to look into Ms. Palin’s background. And Randy Ruedrich, the state Republican Party chairman, said he knew nothing of any vetting that had been conducted.

State Senator Hollis French, a Democrat who is directing the ethics investigation, said that no one asked him about the allegations. “I heard not a word, not a single contact,” he said.

A number of Republicans said the McCain campaign had to some degree tied its hands in its effort to keep the selection process so secret.

“If you really want it to be a surprise, the circle of people that you’re going to allow to know about it is going to be small, and that’s just the nature of it,” said Dan Bartlett, a former counselor to President Bush.

Former McCain strategists disagreed on whether it would have been useful for Ms. Palin’s name to have been more publicly floated before her selection so that issues like the trooper investigation and her daughter’s pregnancy might have already been aired and not seemed so new at the time of her announcement.

“It’s a risk,” said Dan Schnur, a former McCain aide who now directs the Jesse M. Unruh Institute of Politics at the University of Southern California. “No matter how great the candidate, it’s a significant risk to put someone on the ticket” who hasn’t been publicly scrutinized.

“They obviously felt it was worth the risk to rev up the base and potentially reach out to Clinton supporters,” Mr. Schnur said.

Reporting was contributed by Kate Zernike, Jim Rutenberg and Peter Baker in St. Paul, and Serge F. Kovaleski in Juneau, Alaska.

[Mustard]

The more I read about this... the more I scratch my head in wondering about John McCain's vetting process?

Surely a thorough vetting would have discovered that she once was a member of a party with the goal of repatriating the state of Alaska to either be its own nation, or at the very least its own commonwealth.

For fuck's sake... the AIP's slogan is "Alaska first, Alaska always". I think that runs counter to McCain's slogan now of "Country first"...

I really wouldn't want to be in McCain's shoes right now.

Sarah Palin... the gift that keeps on giving!

EDIT: As an aside... I am now much more firm in my belief (though i have no proof) that both Romney and Pawlenty said "thanks, but no thanks" to being McCain's VP. Why else would the vetting of Palin occur just mere days before the actual selection? It just doesn't make any sense...

[kid_vidrio]

Moreover, why does she insist on pronouncing it PAYlin?
It looks like PALin to me.
Is PALin not distinct enough?

[FarEastFornicator]

I wish I had Daily Show here.

[zaphrodesiac]

Paul. I'd just be giving McCain a vote for being the lesser of two evils.

[Mustard]

Paul?

[FarEastFornicator]

"This isn't a presidential ticket, it's a sitcom -- The Maverick and the MILF!"

[Mustard]

I thought mine was better.

Beauty and the Beast. or how about Beauty and the Deceased?

naw... thats a little harsh.

[Deadhead Derek]

Though all the blind party loyalty is normal in an election year, I have to admit that I have no love or excitement for either party, and without a "dog in the fight" so to speak, I am troubled by the degree of partisanship evident in just the small cross section of the populace here on the Mask. I am ready for the American Party, or the Federal Party or anything other than this divisive crap that is the process today. We are Americans, people, lets act like we live in the country with the greatest freedoms, the greatest lands and the responsability to respect those freedoms even when exercised in a Constitutionally protected manner that you might not personally believe in.

[kid_vidrio]

yeah, and it's not the 'independent party.'
that's like kissing your sister.
it's like claiming to be average. it shows an inability to take a side, and while justifiable in the face of two parties that have no viable platform, it reveals a whole, or an opportunity, depending on how you see things...

[Smokestack]

The more I read about this... the more I scratch my head in wondering about John McCain's vetting process?

Surely a thorough vetting would have discovered that she once was a member of a party with the goal of repatriating the state of Alaska to either be its own nation, or at the very least its own commonwealth.

For fuck's sake... the AIP's slogan is "Alaska first, Alaska always". I think that runs counter to McCain's slogan now of "Country first"...

I really wouldn't want to be in McCain's shoes right now.

Sarah Palin... the gift that keeps on giving!

EDIT: As an aside... I am now much more firm in my belief (though i have no proof) that both Romney and Pawlenty said "thanks, but no thanks" to being McCain's VP. Why else would the vetting of Palin occur just mere days before the actual selection? It just doesn't make any sense...

I think the big thing with vetting Palin was that, if he picked her, he wanted to cash in on the surprise factor. The more he would have vetted her, the more word would have spread that he was considering her. So, he sacrificed a thorough vetting for his post-convention Friday morning in the sun, the rebirth of maverickiness. It really illustrates that this decision was not only political, but that his decision-making is questionable. But hey, he's got experience making bold decisions, right?

[kareyn01]

To answer Sink's question about why a thorough vetting didn't reveal all these issues with Palin, there's a simple answer. She wasn't vetted until FOUR DAYS before she was picked.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/us/politics/02vetting.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

"They didn’t seriously consider her until four or five days from the time she was picked, before she was asked, maybe the Thursday or Friday before. This was really kind of rushed at the end, because John didn’t get what he wanted. He wanted to do Joe [Lieberman] or Ridge.”

[dadaelus]

I think the big thing with vetting Palin was that, if he picked her, he wanted to cash in on the surprise factor. The more he would have vetted her, the more word would have spread that he was considering her. So, he sacrificed a thorough vetting for his post-convention Friday morning in the sun, the rebirth of maverickiness. It really illustrates that this decision was not only political, but that his decision-making is questionable. But hey, he's got experience making bold decisions, right?

I pick political landmine number three. What did I win Bob?

[Smokestack]

McCain Manager: 'This Election is Not About Issues'

Rick Davis, campaign manager for John McCain's presidential bid, insisted that the presidential race will be decided more over personalities than issues during an interview with Post editors this morning.
"This election is not about issues," said Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."
Davis added that issues will no doubt play a major role in the decisions undecided voters will make but that they won't ultimately be conclusive. He added that the campaign has "ultimate faith" in the idea that the more voters get to know McCain and Barack Obama, the better the Republican nominee will do.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/09/mccain_manager_this_election_i.html

[Claydon]

McCain Manager: 'This Election is Not About Issues'

Rick Davis, campaign manager for John McCain's presidential bid, insisted that the presidential race will be decided more over personalities than issues during an interview with Post editors this morning.
"This election is not about issues," said Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."
Davis added that issues will no doubt play a major role in the decisions undecided voters will make but that they won't ultimately be conclusive. He added that the campaign has "ultimate faith" in the idea that the more voters get to know McCain and Barack Obama, the better the Republican nominee will do.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/09/mccain_manager_this_election_i.html




Well he is right, issues has little to do with this campaign. If it did, we wouldn't be talking about fatty pregnant 17 year olds.

[Void]

Originally posted by verdugo in the Random Picture thread. Seems appropriate here:

http://i34.tinypic.com/28iapoi.jpg

[Smokestack]

Well he is right, issues has little to do with this campaign. If it did, we wouldn't be talking about fatty pregnant 17 year olds.

That's sad and cynical.

[Mustard]

McCain Manager: 'This Election is Not About Issues'

Rick Davis, campaign manager for John McCain's presidential bid, insisted that the presidential race will be decided more over personalities than issues during an interview with Post editors this morning.
"This election is not about issues," said Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."
Davis added that issues will no doubt play a major role in the decisions undecided voters will make but that they won't ultimately be conclusive. He added that the campaign has "ultimate faith" in the idea that the more voters get to know McCain and Barack Obama, the better the Republican nominee will do.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/09/mccain_manager_this_election_i.html
Holy crap the guy who said that should be fired from whatever job he is holding and never be allowed to make decisions on his own again!

First the McCain camp makes their claim that Obama isn't ready to lead... so naturally they undercut their argument by having Palin jump on the ticket. And now this...

The McCain camp has been calling Obama a "celebrity" for how long now? He has to be delusional to think that a character and "composite views" discussion will be in favor of McCain. THAT IS THE WHOLE REASON THEY ARE CALLING HIM A CELEBRITY!!! TO UNDERCUT OBAMA!!! The whole right is downright crazy and incensed with the notion that Obama is a rockstar and a mega-celebrity... and this guy thinks John "I'm a muhfuggin POW" McCain can not only hold a candle to Obama BUT actually be favored better than Obama???

I... I just don't know what this guy is smoking? Clearly I have to get some of it though!

[Smokestack]

Holy crap the guy who said that should be fired from whatever job he is holding and never be allowed to make decisions on his own again!

First the McCain camp makes their claim that Obama isn't ready to lead... so naturally they undercut their argument by having Palin jump on the ticket. And now this...

The McCain camp has been calling Obama a "celebrity" for how long now? He has to be delusional to think that a character and "composite views" discussion will be in favor of McCain. THAT IS THE WHOLE REASON THEY ARE CALLING HIM A CELEBRITY!!! TO UNDERCUT OBAMA!!! The whole right is downright crazy and incensed with the notion that Obama is a rockstar and a mega-celebrity... and this guy thinks John "I'm a muhfuggin POW" McCain can not only hold a candle to Obama BUT actually be favored better than Obama???

I... I just don't know what this guy is smoking? Clearly I have to get some of it though!

It's just like "country first" and "experience matters." It's not so much that these campaign lines and tactics are dropped once they've overstayed their usefulness, but that the McCain campaign's next moves are entirely contradictory.

[Mustard]

It's just like "country first" and "experience matters." It's not so much that these campaign lines and tactics are dropped once they've overstayed their usefulness, but that the McCain campaign's next moves are entirely contradictory.
I know man.... I know. I just do not understand the logic behind these political decisions.

Its as if the McCain campaign is doing everything it can to shoot themselves in the foot at every opportunity.

I may sound crazy for saying it, but I actually feel sorry for McCain diehards like Claydon for having to sit through all of this bullshit. I really do. They deserve to have a well run campaign... and from what I can tell, that just isn't happening.

[freegood]

The celebrity snob angle worked. Polls after those attacks came (what pledge of a civil election from both sides?) showed McCain inching closer. That was until people saw Obama speak at the convention.

Dude needs to speak more in a informal setting.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

I thought mine was better.

Beauty and the Beast. or how about Beauty and the Deceased?

naw... thats a little harsh.

Too bad she's not on your ticket...

Beauty and the Obese

[Debo]

Wow. Fred Thompson kicked ass tonight.

How come he couldn't give speeches like that on the campaign trail?

[BIG PIZZLE]

George busch is a fucking retard.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Joe jewberman is rallying for a position in a McCain government.

[Claydon]

Joe jewberman is rallying for a position in a McCain government.

It was a given before this speech. I could see sec def or sec of state.

[freegood]

A pro-war Jew running foreign policy. Who the fuck else think that's a baaaad idea?

[Mr. Brown]

me?

[BIG PIZZLE]

It was a given before this speech. I could see sec def or sec of state.

That would be such a george bush move. It would be like Bolton to the UN.

[Claydon]

That would be such a george bush move. It would be like Bolton to the UN.

Well, he has been a close supporter of McCain for a number of years.

[Claydon]

A pro-war Jew running foreign policy. Who the fuck else think that's a baaaad idea?

That means things would get done.

[freegood]

Might have to explain more on that vague Bushism. You mean things are undone right now?

[Mr. Brown]

Obama to Appear on Fox on Thursday Night
CHICAGO — Before Senator John McCain delivers his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention on Thursday, Senator Barack Obama will make a marquee appearance of his own.

Call it counter-intuitive. He will appear on “The O’Reilly Factor” on Fox News Channel.

For Mr. Obama, it will be the first time in his presidential candidacy that he’s on Bill O’Reilly’s prime-time program. The appearance is intended to put Mr. Obama before a conservative audience, one week after drawing 40 million TV viewers at his own acceptance speech.

Mr. Obama has had a strained history with the network, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Is this a sign of burying the hatchet or simply politically smart programming? Stay tuned

[Das Kahlua]

Mr. Obama has had a strained history with the network, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Is this a sign of burying the hatchet or simply politically smart programming? Stay tuned

Is this the same Rupert Murdoch that both donated money to the campaign of, and endorsed, Hillary Clinton?

So, since George Stephanopoulos used to be an advisor for Bill Clinton, and is now a contributor for ABC News, should Obama not appear on ABC, because they might similiarly be biased?

[sidewinder]

If Paulin's daughter would just get on-board with the liberal media and abort the kid she'd be a hero to the blog-o-shpere. The bloggers are just pissed because she's keeping the kid and getting married...not living in her parents basement like they do.

[Debo]

Is this the same Rupert Murdoch that both donated money to the campaign of, and endorsed, Hillary Clinton?

So, since George Stephanopoulos used to be an advisor for Bill Clinton, and is now a contributor for ABC News, should Obama not appear on ABC, because they might similiarly be biased?

He is also this guy.

Carlsbad, CA -- Tonight at the "All Things Digital" conference (http://allthingsd.com/d) sponsored by the Wall Street Journal, Rupert Murdoch -- Chairman of News Corp, new WSJ owner, and longtime torchbearer for conservative politics -- said this about Barack Obama: "He is a rock star. It's fantastic" "I love what he is saying about education." "I don't think he will win Florida.....but he will win in Ohio and the election". "I am anxious to meet him." "I want to see if he will walk the walk."http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hilary-rosen/rupert-murdoch-says-obama_b_104018.html

[kareyn01]

Is this the same Rupert Murdoch that both donated money to the campaign of, and endorsed, Hillary Clinton?

So, since George Stephanopoulos used to be an advisor for Bill Clinton, and is now a contributor for ABC News, should Obama not appear on ABC, because they might similiarly be biased?

Obama's rift with Fox News was because they pushed the "Obama is a Muslim" storyline to ridiculous lengths, and basically fabricated the story about Obama attending a Madrassa in Indonesia.

So yeah, I think he had a legitimate beef.

[Emjanss]

Joe jewberman is rallying for a position in a McCain government.
He is gong to be so fucked over by the Democratic party once they don't need his vote to be a majority in the Senate.

Obama's rift with Fox News was because they pushed the "Obama is a Muslim" storyline to ridiculous lengths, and basically fabricated the story about Obama attending a Madrassa in Indonesia.

So yeah, I think he had a legitimate beef.
So a similar rift between Sarah Palin and CNN is not only to be expected, but is justified?

[Mr. Brown]

Obama's rift with Fox News was because they pushed the "Obama is a Muslim" storyline to ridiculous lengths, and basically fabricated the story about Obama attending a Madrassa in Indonesia.

So yeah, I think he had a legitimate beef.

I think it's a great move to go on O’Reilly, it's not only going to draw people away from the coverage, but may make for some very good talking points the next day.

[Tar Heel]

Obama's rift with Fox News was because they pushed the "Obama is a Muslim" storyline to ridiculous lengths, and basically fabricated the story about Obama attending a Madrassa in Indonesia.

So yeah, I think he had a legitimate beef.

They also say Brack Heusain Obama every time they say his name.

[Tar Heel]

So a similar rift between Sarah Palin and CNN is not only to be expected, but is justified?

Well it's a little different considering that The mcCain/Palin camp released the news. Why wouldn't a news source ask/attempt to answer questions related to a presidential candidates press release?

[freegood]

It was 7 or 8 months ago when Fox News bitterly hated McCain. Politics changes like the wind.

[Emjanss]

Obama's rift with Fox News was because they pushed the "Obama is a Muslim" storyline to ridiculous lengths, and basically fabricated the story about Obama attending a Madrassa in Indonesia.

So yeah, I think he had a legitimate beef.


So a similar rift between Sarah Palin and CNN is not only to be expected, but is justified?


Well it's a little different considering that The mcCain/Palin camp released the news. Why wouldn't a news source ask/attempt to answer questions related to a presidential candidates press release?

CNN persued the "story" of the Governor's child not being hers, but instead her daughter to the point that Tuesday they were still repeating the words, discussing how they investigated the story.

Very much the same way that Fox News continued to discuss how they investiaged if the school that Senator Obama went to in Indonesia was infact actually a Madrassa.

Like Fox News did then, CNN was keeping a story in the news by reporting on the reporting of the story.

[Desperado]

Obama hits Davis on 'issues'

Ben Smith 1 hour, 40 minutes ago


Carrie Budoff Brown reports:

Barack Obama hit John McCain on Wednesday over a comment from his campaign manager that the presidential race will be decided more on personalities than on issues.
“Which probably explains why last night when they were speaking, all these speakers [at the Republican National Convention] came up, you didn’t hear a single word about the economy,” Obama said at an economic forum in New Philadelphia, Ohio. “Not once did people mention the hardships that people are going through.”
“I guess I don’t blame them,” Obama added, “because if you don’t have any issues to run on, you want it all to be about personality. If you have got George Bush’s track record and John McCain voting 90 percent of the time in agreement with George Bush, then you probably you don’t want to talk about issues either.”
McCain campaign manager Rick Davis told Washington Post editors Tuesday that issues will have an impact on undecided voters but will not be conclusive.
“This election is not about issues,” Davis said. “This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates.”
The Obama campaign challenged the remarks Tuesday, and Obama added criticism of Davis’ remarks in his stump speech Wednesday, as part of an extended riff aimed at painting McCain as out of touch.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080903/pl_politico/20552

[Hanover Fist]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122039919493892941.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries Why Obama Can't Close the Sale
Even before John McCain shook up the presidential race by tapping Gov. Sarah Palin to be his running mate, polls weren't showing the late-August lead that Barack Obama (and many Republicans) expected. Why so?
It's not because of the brilliance of the McCain campaign. Rather we believe that -- despite the media's best efforts to exempt Mr. Obama's policies from critical examination -- American voters aren't sheep. They pay attention to the candidates and positions and make wise decisions about who should lead the country.
True, Mr. Obama enjoys several advantages. Republicans are struggling nationwide in head-to-head contests. Democrats lead in voter registration, and have a well-funded presidential candidate.
Yet Americans have not committed to Mr. Obama. Why?
Clearly, Mr. Obama's weakness on foreign policy is a factor. He has a knee-jerk preference for diplomacy with China, Europe and Russia over the security of the American people and our closest allies. He hasn't explained his shifting positions on Iraq and Iran, among other hot spots. And he felt compelled to make up for his experience gap with Mr. McCain by picking Sen. Joe Biden to be his running mate.
But here's the thing: It's not that Mr. Obama hasn't been specific enough in his governing plans. To the contrary, he has been very specific about his tax policy, health-care and energy proposals. It's that voters are paying attention and appear not to like what Candidate Obama is saying.
Mr. Obama has proposed a massive tax increase on investors, business owners, and the "wealthy." At a time when the American people rate the economy as the central issue of the campaign, a tax hike doesn't make a lot of political sense. Voters know that a tax hike won't help the economy.
Moreover, Mr. Obama's tax plans would directly or indirectly harm U.S. investors by raising the capital gains and dividend taxes. More than half of U.S. households are equity owners, so Mr. Obama's proposal risks alienating half the population.
Mr. Obama claims to offer a tax cut to moderate-income families, but a significant portion of Mr. Obama's tax plan is a welfare giveaway costing more than $648 billion over 10 years, according to the Tax Policy Center.
How so? He would authorize a hodgepodge of refundable tax credits covering everything from education, mortgage payments, child care and other items for people who do not pay income taxes now.
About 38% of U.S. households pay no income tax today. Under a President Obama (whose policies would shave 15.3 million households off the tax rolls) that share would grow to nearly half of all American households.
We have been repeatedly told that everyone should pay their fair share. So this sounds grossly unfair and like a return of tax-and-spend liberal economics. No wonder there is a lot of doubt about the wisdom of the junior senator from Illinois.
Mr. Obama's health-care proposal is not quite HillaryCare, but it comes close. A national health insurance, heavily subsidized by taxpayers, would be offered to the currently uninsured. Mr. Obama's instincts on health care are always to move more people onto rolls of government-paid and government-mandated insurance, while depriving the marketplace the oxygen it needs for greater innovation, life-saving cures, and efficiency.
Americans have heard the refrain for government-provided health care before and know an expensive government giveaway when they see it.
Mr. Obama's energy policy is to drill less, consume less, tax more, and spend more. With barely a nod to nuclear energy -- the only meaningfully large, carbon-free source of domestic energy -- he is promising a massive increase in domestic, noncarbon-based energy from sources that produce only a fraction of our energy now.
He has also proposed massive tax increases on U.S. oil and gas companies while continuing to cut off vast swaths of U.S. territory to drilling.
Again, Americans are wiser than they are given credit. They know that if you restrict supply and tax production, prices go up.
The economic wisdom of Americans should not be doubted. They can see through Mr. Obama's proposals. They know that they will have to pick up the bill if Mr. Obama sends checks to people who already don't pay taxes; they know a centralized government-controlled health-care system will be more expensive, less efficient, and less friendly to patients and doctors. They know that the most effective way to bring down energy prices is by keeping all our energy options open, including more drilling in the U.S.
And they know that if a candidate has spent his entire career taxing more and spending more, that's what you'll get -- and more of it.
Mr. Obama is wondering why he can't shake Mr. McCain. His problem isn't his plans for the campaign. It's his plans for governing the country. Americans just aren't buying into them.

[freegood]

CNN persued the "story" of the Governor's child not being hers, but instead her daughter to the point that Tuesday they were still repeating the words, discussing how they investigated the story.

Very much the same way that Fox News continued to discuss how they investiaged if the school that Senator Obama went to in Indonesia was infact actually a Madrassa.

Like Fox News did then, CNN was keeping a story in the news by reporting on the reporting of the story.

We live in a state of shoddy journalism. Quite laughable people think they have so many "choices" with the plethora of trash cable news networks around.

[Desperado]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122039919493892941.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries


Wow the economic adviser to Bush wrote this? Shocking.

[Hanover Fist]

Wow the economic adviser to Bush wrote this? Shocking.

And which part did you care to refute?

[Desperado]

And which part did you care to refute?


Well since its an opinion peace, its hard for me to say that this guys opinion about how voters feel is right or wrong. You can argue all day that voters feel one way and I would say they feel another. I mean in the article he says that "Yet Americans have not committed to Mr. Obama. Why?", when I would say thats not true at all. Just today polls came out showing that Obama is widening his margin in key battleground states. Everyone argues of course that polls dont mean crap, to us at least. But they sure mean a lot to the campaigns.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/03/cnn-poll-obama-widening-lead-in-battleground-states/

[kid_vidrio]

I think Obama really leads by a slightly smaller margin than he does on our mock tiny sample here.
If you consider the 'investors' who are going to get pinched by Obama's proposed taxes, they are a small group and probably an already R group.

I think the reverse Tom Bradley is in effect and no one wants to admit they are voting for Obama for a score of reasons, and then will pull the trigger in the booth.

It's going to be interesting.

[Nosebuckle]

I think the reverse Tom Bradley is in effect and no one wants to admit they are voting for Obama for a score of reasons, and then will pull the trigger in the booth.

It's going to be interesting.

Kinda seems like more people won't want to admit they are voting for McCain, since it's not exactly a trendy thing to gush over McCain on the interwebs

[hatepoppy]

Kinda seems like more people won't want to admit they are voting for McCain, since it's not exactly a trendy thing to gush over McCain on the interwebsnot trendy, or not warranted?

[Nosebuckle]

mostly the former, plenty the latter

[Claydon]

Ok, I would actually like to make a non party comment/point.

Between these two wind bags all I hear is how they are cutting taxes, and going to spend more money on Iraq, or free college, or free health care, or whatever.

Both parties are doing this, and both parties are drinking down the kool aid from big banks (especially with an upcoming vote on a bill that would outlaw credit companies from randomly changing your rates ie universal default clause).

But what I hear from no one is what about the nearly 10 trillion in public debt. How the hell is this going to be dealt with. How the hell are we going to deal with the trillions in payments for social security and medicare? From the left we hear tax the rich, from the right we hear grow the economy. Yet under policies from both sides of the aisle debt continues to grow, and our costs to service this debt is massive and growing every year.

So how bout it? Is it because americans are dipshits and cannot handle the truth. Ie a reduction in government services from social security/medicare to the military in order to pay off these obligations? Because I can assure you the Chinese have not forgotten about their 900 billion + in bonds they own, or the japanese 1 trillion plus, or the saudis etc etc etc.

[Da Raider]

But what I hear from no one is what about the nearly 10 trillion in public debt. How the hell is this going to be dealt with. How the hell are we going to deal with the trillions in payments for social security and medicare? From the left we hear tax the rich, from the right we hear grow the economy. Yet under policies from both sides of the aisle debt continues to grow, and our costs to service this debt is massive and growing every year.

So how bout it? Is it because americans are dipshits and cannot handle the truth. Ie a reduction in government services from social security/medicare to the military in order to pay off these obligations? Because I can assure you the Chinese have not forgotten about their 900 billion + in bonds they own, or the japanese 1 trillion plus, or the saudis etc etc etc.

Reduction in the size of the government?! Why, that's inconceivable!

China won't even have to fire one shot to have us on our knees. They will just have to call in our massive debt.

[Claydon]

Reduction in the size of the government?! Why, that's inconceivable!

China won't even have to fire one shot to have us on our knees. They will just have to call in our massive debt.

Call in? Nah, they will just keep extending it as we are there biggest source for all of their shit. 800 billion flows to china from us, they won't want to shut off their cash cow.

[Debo]

Reduction in the size of the government?! Why, that's inconceivable!

China won't even have to fire one shot to have us on our knees. They will just have to call in our massive debt.

I am all for small government.

Your line about China is bullshit. They don't own that much debt and they can't call it whenever they want to (they could stop buying it but that has consequences on their end too).
http://www.optimist123.com/optimist/2007/08/an-800-billion-.html

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Well since its an opinion peace,

They are ALL opinion pieces.....where have you been living?

[Claydon]

I am all for small government.

Your line about China is bullshit. They don't own that much debt and they can't call it whenever they want to (they could stop buying it but that has consequences on their end too).
http://www.optimist123.com/optimist/2007/08/an-800-billion-.html

Wonderful so they own under 900 billion (slow clap).

So anyways, history has shown that when the total debt of a nation approaches the GDP (i mean public debt, not private debt) then bad things tend to happen. We are what, nearly 10 trillion and total US GDP was some 14 trillion? You as a CPA type can appreciate the idea that we are spending hundreds of billions just to service the debt. And even though we are both against SS and Medicare, the majority of americans want these programs, therefore we will have to fund them. But we won't be able to do this, or do things like build bridges, air craft carriers, etc etc etc.

[Desperado]

They are ALL opinion pieces.....where have you been living?


Ya but most of them are not written by the economic adviser to the worst president in the history of the United States. In my opinion.

[vasili denisov]

Hanover, I'll go into two parts of the WSJ piece to make the point that its intent is to re-inforce existing beliefs of the reader, rather than persuade a skeptic.


Clearly, Mr. Obama's weakness on foreign policy is a factor. He has a knee-jerk preference for diplomacy with China, Europe and Russia over the security of the American people and our closest allies. He hasn't explained his shifting positions on Iraq and Iran, among other hot spots.
It sets diplomacy and american security in opposition to each other, when this is a false choice. Arguably, agressive measures could be taken against Russia and China following certain political events (invasion of Georgia, support for the Sudan regime), but even administration officials would say that such measures would threaten global, and american security. The sloppiness of the article is here very evident: it cites Obama's choice of diplomacy with Europe over the security of our closest allies. Isn't Europe our closest ally?

Mr. Obama has proposed a massive tax increase on investors, business owners, and the "wealthy." At a time when the American people rate the economy as the central issue of the campaign, a tax hike doesn't make a lot of political sense. Voters know that a tax hike won't help the economy.
Here, the sloppiness continues. We have a conclusion, a tax hike doesn't make a lot of political sense, in no way derives from the premise, the economy is the campaign's central issue. If americans believe there is growing gap between the wealthy (not "wealthy"), those who make over a quarter a million a year, and those outside that circle, such a tax would in fact make a great deal of political sense. I'm not making an economic argument, just pointing out the lack of connection.

It's then followed by an unpremised statement, voters know that a tax hike won't help the economy. They do? Taxes which go towards schools, lead to better students, requiring fewer overseas hires, boosting overall incomes, have no possibility of helping the economy, long-term? It's an idea that can be argued (I won't argue it here), but the writer's given nothing to be argued with, just a statement of people's knowledge as flat and final as anything on Moses' tablets.

[Grieves]

All tax increases on the wealthy are passed down to people who make less than them, somehow, someway.

It's also perfectly fair.

[Debo]

Wonderful so they own under 900 billion (slow clap).

So anyways, history has shown that when the total debt of a nation approaches the GDP (i mean public debt, not private debt) then bad things tend to happen. We are what, nearly 10 trillion and total US GDP was some 14 trillion? You as a CPA type can appreciate the idea that we are spending hundreds of billions just to service the debt. And even though we are both against SS and Medicare, the majority of americans want these programs, therefore we will have to fund them. But we won't be able to do this, or do things like build bridges, air craft carriers, etc etc etc.

Your argument is shifting all over the place. The first issue was how much of our debt China owns. After examining the facts, it is not that big of a deal. No? [start slow clap]

The second issue that you raise is how much the federal government spends and how it pays for its over spending. [slow clap increases] I agree that our entitlement programs will either drive us into the ground or they will need to be changed. I am in favor of taking a proactive stance and reforming, or eliminating, them right now.

Nobody my age really thinks that they are ever going to see a dime of the money taken from them to pay for SS. This always amazes me because they have a choice: they can stick with the status quo (which is the road to bankruptcy), or they can get behind a reform movement (maybe they were all playing X-Box in 2005. Who knows). [slow clap is getting louder].

Ultimately, we need to define the role of the government better than we have. We need to elect politicians that don't think that they have a right to take half of my paycheck and give it to someone else. We need to stop buying to the bullshit that they feed us and hold them accountable for their actions (i.e.,stop re-electing shitty incumbents). [and the crowd goes crazy]

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Ya but most of them are not written by the economic adviser to the worst president in the history of the United States. In my opinion.


Are you a historian? Or simply jumping on board?

Just checking the credentials.

[freegood]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122039919493892941.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries

Mr. Obama has proposed a massive tax increase on investors, business owners, and the "wealthy." At a time when the American people rate the economy as the central issue of the campaign, a tax hike doesn't make a lot of political sense. Voters know that a tax hike won't help the economy.
Moreover, Mr. Obama's tax plans would directly or indirectly harm U.S. investors by raising the capital gains and dividend taxes. More than half of U.S. households are equity owners, so Mr. Obama's proposal risks alienating half the population.
Mr. Obama claims to offer a tax cut to moderate-income families, but a significant portion of Mr. Obama's tax plan is a welfare giveaway costing more than $648 billion over 10 years, according to the Tax Policy Center.
How so? He would authorize a hodgepodge of refundable tax credits covering everything from education, mortgage payments, child care and other items for people who do not pay income taxes now.
About 38% of U.S. households pay no income tax today. Under a President Obama (whose policies would shave 15.3 million households off the tax rolls) that share would grow to nearly half of all American households.
We have been repeatedly told that everyone should pay their fair share. So this sounds grossly unfair and like a return of tax-and-spend liberal economics. No wonder there is a lot of doubt about the wisdom of the junior senator from Illinois.

Going by the writer's simple logic, that would mean half of American households would have more money to spend in their pockets. It would be a trickle up economy...

Should Obama alienate half of the American electorate as the writer claims (though the top 10% have been making shizloads while from 2000 and 2007 median real income for working-age middle-income families in the United States dropped $2,000) (http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/27/news/economy/state_of_working_america/index.htm) the half that definitely and directly benefits should, in the writer's mind, likely vote for him.

[Lone Wolf]

The RNC has that Big Brother 1984 theme down pretty nicely with their red signs of the day ('service', 'prosperity') and their big theme screen behind the speaker makes for interesting visuals.

[Debo]

Going by the writer's simple logic, that would mean half of American households would have more money to spend in their pockets. It would be a trickle up economy...

Should Obama alienate half of the American electorate as the writer claims (though the top 10% have been making shizloads while from 2000 and 2007 median real income for working-age middle-income families in the United States dropped $2,000) (http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/27/news/economy/state_of_working_america/index.htm) the half that definitely and directly benefits should, in the writer's mind, likely vote for him.

Come on. Do you really need me to explain the marginal propensity to consume to you?

Every number is skewed in 2000 because of the tech bubble. Besides, total compensation is much more relevant.
http://www.bls.gov/NCS/

[BIG PIZZLE]

So let me get this straight. The two republican nominees should be elected because their careers are loaded with moments when they have fought back against republicans? They’re saying “vote for us, we’re against the establishment!” to the establishment and all these pasty douchebags in stupid hats go wild.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Obama just got pwnd by Rudy Giuliani.

[BIG PIZZLE]

I think the crowd is chanting "ze-ro, ze-ro".

[Debo]

I think the crowd is chanting "ze-ro, ze-ro".

You are correct. And that is zero as in zero experience.

You are also correct about Rudy. He is killing it.

Edit: And Obama's whole bi-partisan thing isn't going to last too long.

Obama might pursue criminal charges against Bush

· Biden says criminal violations will be pursued
· Democrats have issued subpoenas to Bush aides
· 3 staffers have been held in contempt of Congress



Democratic vice-presidential nominee Joe Biden said yesterday that he and running mate Barack Obama could pursue criminal charges against the Bush administration if they are elected in November.


Biden's comments, first reported by ABC news, attracted little notice on a day dominated by the drama surrounding his Republican counterpart, Alaska governor Sarah Palin.
But his statements represent the Democrats' strongest vow so far this year to investigate alleged misdeeds committed during the Bush years.


"If there has been a basis upon which you can pursue someone for a criminal violation, they will be pursued," Biden said during a campaign event in Deerfield Beach, Florida, according to ABC.
"[N]ot out of vengeance, not out of retribution," he added, "out of the need to preserve the notion that no one, no attorney general, no president -- no one is above the law."


Obama sounded a similar note in April, vowing that if elected, he would ask his attorney general to initiate a prompt review of Bush-era actions to distinguish between possible "genuine crimes" and "really bad policies".


"[I]f crimes have been committed, they should be investigated," Obama told the Philadelphia Daily News. "You're also right that I would not want my first term consumed by what was perceived on the part of Republicans as a partisan witch hunt, because I think we've got too many problems we've got to solve."


Congressional Democrats have issued a flurry of subpoenas this year to senior Bush administration aides as part of a broad inquiry into the authorisation of torturous interrogation tactics used at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp.


Three veterans of the Bush White House have been held in criminal contempt of Congress for refusing to respond to subpoenas: former counsel Harriet Miers, former political adviser Karl Rove, and current chief of staff Josh Bolten. The contempt battle is currently before a federal court.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/03/uselections2008.joebiden

[BIG PIZZLE]

I would have voted for Giuliani.

[freegood]

Every number is skewed in 2000 because of the tech bubble.

Come on. Do you really need me to explain the marginal propensity to consume to you?

Just as the marginal propensity to consume has been skewed by the recent credit/housing bubbles. If you're going to forget the pile of credit debt and loads of refinanced home equity schemes that fueled consumer spending from 2000-2007, then explain by all means.

Yes, there were cheap goods flowing from Asia that dampened inflation expectations and central banks subsidizing our national account deficit, but neither of the two are sustainable in any economy, nor is living on credit is a stable and reliable source of income.


Besides, total compensation is much more relevant.
http://www.bls.gov/NCS/


Is there a graph for median total compensation (table 2)? (http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/bp195) Don't want Bill Gates and Warren Buffet sitting on one side of the seesaw and ~20 million uninsured workers sitting on the other to be combined into one happy number.

I admit my link is as biased as heritage.org's, but I didn't see one from BLS.

[BIG PIZZLE]

I like how they used her shaved head kid as a prop.

[Debo]

I like how they used her shaved head kid as a prop.

Is pointing out that she has a stake in the WOT irrelevant?

Besides, I am pretty sure that he enlisted before she accepted McCain's offer to join his ticket.

[Debo]

Just as the marginal propensity to consume has been skewed by the recent credit/housing bubbles. If you're going to forget the pile of credit debt and loads of refinanced home equity schemes that fueled consumer spending from 2000-2007, then explain by all means.

Yes, there were cheap goods flowing from Asia that dampened inflation expectations and central banks subsidizing our national account deficit, but neither of the two are sustainable in any economy, nor is living on credit is a stable and reliable source of income.

I wouldn't call a HELOC disposable income.

Here is the World Bank's definition of MPC.
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/DATASTATISTICS/EXTDECSTAMAN/0,,contentMDK:20878923~isCURL:Y~menuPK:2648208~pag ePK:64168445~piPK:64168309~theSitePK:2077967,00.ht ml

Cutting taxes puts more money in a worker's pocket. They stimulates aggregate demand, which stimulates GDP growth. It doesn't matter if your income goes from 20K a year to 25K a year or from 850K a year to 975K a year. Obviously one is going to have a greater impact on AD, but you shouldn't discount the other half of the equation.

Is there a graph for median total compensation (table 2)? (http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/bp195) Don't want Bill Gates and Warren Buffet sitting on one side of the seesaw and ~20 million uninsured workers sitting on the other to be combined into one happy number.

I admit my link is as biased as heritage.org's, but I didn't see one from BLS.

The BLS provides raw data. The think tanks construct their own graphs and charts (mostly because using different base line dates changes what the chart/graph looks like).

[Lone Wolf]

Rudy still sounds like an idiot

[Debo]

Rudy still sounds like an idiot

Compelling.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Is pointing out that she has a stake in the WOT irrelevant?

Besides, I am pretty sure that he enlisted before she accepted McCain's offer to join his ticket.

Still a prop. And do you think it's a good idea to have a baby with downs amongst thousands of screaming people? It was great how she almost dropped him when she tried to flip him around so the crowd could see it.

[Lone Wolf]

Compelling.

Truth

[Debo]

Still a prop. And do you think it's a good idea to have a baby with downs amongst thousands of screaming people? It was great how she almost dropped him when she tried to flip him around so the crowd could see it.

I agree that taking a young child to a convention isn't a great idea. But the MSM would have accused her of child abuse if she didn't bring him.

He is no less a prop than any of McCain's boys are (I think that he has two in the Navy: one at the Naval Academy and one in Iraq).

Truth

Obama might want to hire you to write his speeches.

[Lone Wolf]

Obama might want to hire you to write his speeches.

I don't need to post an essay to back this one up. Sorry.

[freegood]

Cutting taxes puts more money in a worker's pocket. They stimulates aggregate demand, which stimulates GDP growth.

I would say it gets to a certain point where government services fail and are detrimental to future investments in GDP growth (education, infrastructure, public safety, public utility) that taxes become necessary. That's something the WSJ writer neglected when he offhandedly mentioned that "Voters know that a tax hike won't help the economy." It's the same voters that want those benefits (sorry, Prof. Friedman).


It doesn't matter if your income goes from 20K a year to 25K a year or from 850K a year to 975K a year. Obviously one is going to have a greater impact on AD, but you shouldn't discount the other half of the equation.

I was responding to the WSJ writer who did. He contradicted himself into making claims of how unpopular raising taxes would be and then flipped into saying Obama's tax cuts could conceivably benefit/be neutral to half of all American households.


The BLS provides raw data. The think tanks construct their own graphs and charts (mostly because using different base line dates changes what the chart/graph looks like).

I'd be interested in seeing other studies that has looked into median total compensation. The wage decline stat is too convenient a number to pull out.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Regardless of policies, republicans can kick ass.

[Lone Wolf]

So let me get this straight. The two republican nominees should be elected because their careers are loaded with moments when they have fought back against republicans? They’re saying “vote for us, we’re against the establishment!” to the establishment and all these pasty douchebags in stupid hats go wild.

They do wear a lot of stupid ass hats there

[Lone Wolf]

What's the little red sign that everyone holds up going to say tomorrow? 'Power'?

[BIG PIZZLE]

Viagra!

[Mustard]

Right wingers Mike Murphy and Peggy Noonan speak their minds... off camera but with their mics still on.

Dq4sOM4tpno

Chuck Todd: Mike Murphy, lots of free advice, we'll see if Steve Schmidt and the boys were watching. We'll find out on your blackberry. Tonight voters will get their chance to hear from Sarah Palin and she will get the chance to show voters she's the right woman for the job Up next, one man who's already convinced and he'll us why Gov. Jon Huntsman.

(cut away)

Peggy Noonan: Yeah.

Mike Murphy: You know, because I come out of the blue swing state governor world: Engler, Whitman, Tommy Thompson, Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush. I mean, these guys -- this is how you win a Texas race, just run it up. And it's not gonna work. And --

PN: It's over.

MM: Still McCain can give a version of the Lieberman speech to do himself some good.

CT: I also think the Palin pick is insulting to Kay Bailey Hutchinson, too.

PN: Saw Kay this morning.

CT: Yeah, she's never looked comfortable about this --

MM: They're all bummed out.

CT: Yeah, I mean is she really the most qualified woman they could have turned to?

PN: The most qualified? No! I think they went for this -- excuse me-- political bullshit about narratives --

CT: Yeah they went to a narrative.

MM: I totally agree.

PN: Every time the Republicans do that, because that's not where they live and it's not what they're good at, they blow it.

MM: You know what's really the worst thing about it? The greatness of McCain is no cynicism, and this is cynical.

CT: This is cynical, and as you called it, gimmicky.

MM: Yeah.
"It's over".
"They're all bummed out".
"Gimmicky"... and sooooo much more!

Sarah Palin: The gift that keeps on giving!

[Pharon]

I don't get what they mean when they say "they went to a narrative." Anyone?

[Mr. Brown]

I think they mean that it's just people talking about life stories and what they have done not what they are actually going to do.

[Pharon]

But she hasn't really even done anything. Isn't that kind of the point?

[freegood]

I don't get what they mean when they say "they went to a narrative." Anyone?

Probably her history. She eloped with a bun in an oven. Had 5 kids. Started out as an activist. Practically self-made.

[kid_vidrio]

If you asked someone about how the West was settled and they told you about the Oregon trail and the gold rush and some cowboys and Indians, leaving out all the actual stuff, that would be a narrative.

Most people understand the world through a series of narratives as opposed to fact.

[freegood]

Well you gotta give the Republican party that. Their fiscal ideology of reducing spending and government size has been intellectually bankrupted by 6 years of Republican domination by the Executive and Legislative branches. Their moral ideology gets punched into the eye with every homosexual scandal from their Congressmen.

Even Palin who said it would be her daughter's choice to have her baby doesn't seem to mind that she would use her power to force women to not have a choice should she get elected.

Republicans don't have practice to back up their theories. A compelling story is all they have left.

[freegood]

Daily Show pwnage on Republican hypocrisy.

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=184086

J8uGenNjOAI

[Rover]

But she hasn't really even done anything. Isn't that kind of the point?If that were true, which I don't believe it is. Governors do something. This poll must really hurt Obama.

Polling was done BEFORE last night's speech. Only a 10% lead?

Thirty-nine percent (39%) also believe the GOP vice presidential nominee has better experience to be president of the United States than Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama.
But 49% give Obama the edge on experience, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey – taken before Palin’s historic speech Wednesday night to the Republican National Convention.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/51_say_reporters_are_trying_to_hurt_palin_39_say_s he_has_better_experience_than_obama

[freegood]

How could it hurt to be in the lead?

[Rover]

39% of the country thinks a person they've never heard of 5 days ago is better experienced to be president than Obama, who's been running for 18 months. And that was before last night's speech. I'd love to see what those numbers are after the weekend; after the GOP spent last night belittling Obama's community organizer and weak legislative experience.

[freegood]

Since Palin has the Executive Experience that surpasses Obama or McCain, then you guys should've nominated her for President instead.

[halfabubbleoff]

I have an odd question about Palin's speech last night. Rather about what happened after....

When McCain came out, much like Obama after Biden's speech last week, did you notice something odd about the way he was moving? I've watched him speak for a while now, but I don't think I have ever seen him look that stiff or.... unnatural. He never moved his head, he turned his whole upper body to look around. His smile seemed... artificial, like it was painted, or sculpted on.

I know this sounds really odd, and it might have been just me, but I honestly felt like I was watching one of those Disney "Hall of Presidents" figures while he moved around the stage.

As I said, I have seen him speak before, and he seems very animated and alive. I have to admit, I was a bit unnerved by him last night.

Anyone know if there was a real issue, or was I just suffering from fatigue?

[Mr. Brown]

Yeah I saw that to, but figured it was just age.

[redsox39]

The evil republican plan is for him to die right away and hand the reigns to Palin. Shit, you figured it out.

[halfabubbleoff]

My first thought was his age as well. He did just celebrate his birthday before the convention.

I just don't think that is all it is, though. I doubt one birthday made that much difference, unless he did party a little too much. I was just wondering if anyone had heard reports of a stiff neck, or other explanation for his "mechanical" appearance.

[Smokestack]

39% of the country thinks a person they've never heard of 5 days ago is better experienced to be president than Obama, who's been running for 18 months. And that was before last night's speech. I'd love to see what those numbers are after the weekend; after the GOP spent last night belittling Obama's community organizer and weak legislative experience.

Wow, I wonder who those 39% could be. If there was partisanship in this country, I just might be able to figure it out...

"And that was before last night's speech." You mean the speech that was red meat to that 39% you already cited? Yeah, I'm sure she won over scads of Independents and Democrats with that speech...these are the people who are craving a lipsticked pit bull-in-chief.

[Smokestack]

From last night...chances are he's talking about 9/11 or teh terrorists...

http://blogs.timesunion.com/capitol/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/giuliani.JPG (http://blogs.timesunion.com/capitol/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/giuliani.JPG)
Getty Images/ Alex Wong: Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani speaks on day three of the Republican National Convention (RNC) at the Xcel Energy Center on September 3, 2008 in St. Paul, Minnesota.

[Lone Wolf]

Cindy McCain has an evil look about her. Maybe it's as simple as whips and chains in the bedroom, but I think it's more than that

[Void]

Cindy McCain has an evil look about her. Maybe it's as simple as whips and chains in the bedroom, but I think it's more than thatToo much beer from her daddy.

[Claydon]

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/04/obama-surge-succeeded-beyond-wildest-dreams/

So apparently obama has said that the surge succeeded? When he declared for the last year or more that it had failed or would fail.

what a fucking douche.

[Lone Wolf]

Someone tell me that '9-11 Tribute' was actually a tribute and not blatent fear mongering.

[Void]

Someone tell me that '9-11 Tribute' was actually a tribute and not blatent fear mongering.The Conservatards love to serve up the scary.

[kid_vidrio]

I think it has been mentioned here already, but I find it curious that McCain is the big shit, but wasn't big enough shit eight years ago. GWB was? How does one accept that reality?

[Claydon]

and heeeeeerreeeeeeeeeees johnny!

[Nosebuckle]

I think it has been mentioned here already, but I find it curious that McCain is the big shit, but wasn't big enough shit eight years ago. GWB was? How does one accept that reality?

With a reluctant heart?

[Stax]

39% of the country thinks a person they've never heard of 5 days ago is better experienced to be president than Obama, who's been running for 18 months. And that was before last night's speech. I'd love to see what those numbers are after the weekend; after the GOP spent last night belittling Obama's community organizer and weak legislative experience.

Are you kidding? She has an R next to her name. I guarantee you you could put MY name in that poll, but with the usual, "The Republican, Stax, or the Democrat, Barack Obama" and you would get people saying I'd be a better president.

[kareyn01]

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/04/obama-surge-succeeded-beyond-wildest-dreams/

So apparently obama has said that the surge succeeded? When he declared for the last year or more that it had failed or would fail.

what a fucking douche.

Except he's been saying that it succeeded militarily for months, and that it hasn't helped the political environment, which was his initial criticism. Nice try, though.

[BIG PIZZLE]

It's funny how many of the people in that building have seen McCain before and they didnt make as big a deal about it before. ff to now and they're cheering at every opportunity. It's like they got more into him simply because he's the nomination. Like other people like him so now I like him more! It seems artificial. But one thing's forsure, if they get elected, at one point in late in the third year, late at night, it'll be McCain and Ms. Palin passing in the hallway, their eyes lock and they pause, McCain leans in and begins to make awkward conversation, she feels his hot, late-night old man breath under her glasses, she removes them while still looking at McCain, comments briefly and begins to walk to the bathroom, McCain says good night and pats her on the back of the skirt. Now at that moment, two things could happen, a lawsuit or Palin v. Clinton 2012.

[BusterPortugal]

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/04/obama-surge-succeeded-beyond-wildest-dreams/

So apparently obama has said that the surge succeeded? When he declared for the last year or more that it had failed or would fail.

what a fucking douche.


Take stuff out of context much?

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=3072397&referralPlaylistId=949437d0db05ed5f5b9954dc049d70b 0c12f2749

[FarEastFornicator]

McCain's speech sounded like his last will and testament. "USA! - USA! - USA!" Nothing like mindless nationalism and repition. Fuck 9/11 scare tactics. Feels like he is speaking directly to my grandpa - who's dead. I predict landslide victory for Obama 08.


"PLEASE...PLEASE...My dear friends"

"USA! - USA! - USA! - USA! - USA! - USA!"

Great interruptions that wont help him...and what's with the balloons? They didn't win anything.

Why did Obama go on Bill O'Reilly...? Did he promise him something?!

[dadaelus]

I think it has been mentioned here already, but I find it curious that McCain is the big shit, but wasn't big enough shit eight years ago. GWB was? How does one accept that reality?

I particularly enjoy watching the social conservatives patting him on the back. I wonder if they are checking to see if McCain scarred from when they stuck the knives in there 8 years ago.

[Mustard]

luA0AMP51Gc

Part 1 of 4 of O'Reilly's interview with Barack Obama.

Take what you will from it. More to come obviously.

The only critique I'd like to make (which ironically isn't political in nature) is that O'Reillly seemed to interview Obama in this segment (except for the beginning intro) in an interruptive manner that stuck me as rude, dismissive, and unprofessional at certain points during the segment. Did anyone else notice this?

Questions: Is this par for the course? Is this style of interviewing normal? Or was O'Reilly taking it easy on Obama?

[Pollo]

Take what you will from it. More to come obviously.

The only critique I'd like to make (which ironically isn't political in nature) is that O'Reillly seemed to interview Obama in this segment (except for the beginning intro) in an interruptive manner that stuck me as rude, dismissive, and unprofessional at certain points during the segment. Did anyone else notice this?

Questions: Is this par for the course? Is this style of interviewing normal? Or was O'Reilly taking it easy on Obama?

well for one, I do like that O'Reilly isn't afraid to back down and asks hard questions right on the spot (he did the same with Hillary). second, his style of interviewing is nothing new: he always interrupts someone during an interview no matter what the topic is, which I'm sure is so frustrating for those being interviewed by him. I for one won't say it's normal, but again he does tests those people he interviews and IMO, I can't say he really asks dumb questions.

and it's too early to ponder if he was taking it easy on Obama since that was only the first of four segments of the interview -- but from what I've seen, he seems to be attacking Obama the same way he did Hillary, or perhaps even more ... which is great since we want to see how Obama reacts under pressure to answer certain questions.

[vasili denisov]

A lot of people were asking tonight: what the hell was that mansion up behind John McCain tonight during the first part of the speech? As I noted (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/213764.php) below, the TV close-ups only showed McCain's head against the grass in the picture, which made it look like he was reprising his famed green screen performance. And when they panned out, it looked like McCain was showing off one of his mansions.


Well, several readers have written in to tell me that the building is actually the main building on the campus of the Walter Reed Middle School in North Hollywood, California. And sure enough, this page (http://reedmstech.com/home/about/) on the school's website makes it pretty clear that they're correct.


You can compare below ...

http://i36.tinypic.com/20idjlv.jpg


http://i36.tinypic.com/bfqrmg.jpg

So it's not a mansion, but a middle school. But that still doesn't answer the question of why they picked this picture to have him standing in front of -- when I would imagine that 99.9% of the US population would have no idea what they were looking at.
(ed.note: Thanks to TPM Readers JR and EK for cluing us in.)


Late Update: I'm surprised this hadn't occurred to me. But several readers have suggested that perhaps one of the tech geeks charged with setting up the audio/visual bells and whistles for the evening was charged with getting pictures of Walter Reed Army Medical Center (http://www.wramc.amedd.army.mil/Pages/default.aspx) but goofed and got this instead. At first I thought, No, that's ridiculous. This is a major political party with big time professionals putting this together. Nothing is left to chance. I mean, is this the RNC or a scene out Spinal Tap or Waiting for Guffman? I still have a bit of a hard time believing they're quite that incompetent. But when you figure in what appears to be the utter lack of any logic for this school being behind McCain and the fact that it has 'Walter Reed' in its name, I'm really not sure you can discount this possibility.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/213806.php

[Mustard]

Did John McCain attend Walter Reed Middle School in North Hollywood, California?
Perhaps it has some sentimental value?
Then again.... this is the same campaign that, well, yeah... its a screw up.

[kid_vidrio]

Questions: Is this par for the course? Is this style of interviewing normal? Or was O'Reilly taking it easy on Obama?
Par.
Classic question - 'Is Iran a threat.'
There are about 66 million people there, and guys like O'Reilly insist on asking the question and demanding an answer as if Iran were the name of a single person, sitting there whittling an atomic bomb out of camel shit.

'Is Ahmadinejad a threat?' or 'Does Ali Khameini pose a threat?' or 'Is there a ruling elite with a dangerous mindset?' but trying to get BO to say paint the country and all its people as black or white is the tiny mindset that says 'bomb them all back to the stone age.'

I'm not saying be soft on Iran, I'm saying ask the right questions and go after teh right people if you want results.

Overall it was a pretty good interview though. I like Bill for the most part. He asks the tough questions and gets answers.

[freegood]

Like others mentioned, he was just as hard on him as he was with Hillary. Hillary seemed to get comfortable at the end. I don't think I want to see Obama pretending to be chummy with O'Reilly.

Pretty decent interview so far.

[Le Goat]

This shit been posted yet?

Democratic vice-presidential nominee Joe Biden said during a town hall meeting that he and running mate Barack Obama could pursue criminal charges against the Bush administration if they are elected in November. Biden's comments attracted little notice on a day dominated by the drama surrounding his Republican counterpart, Alaska governor Sarah Palin. But his statements represent the Democrats' st More.. (javascript://)rongest vow so far this year to investigate alleged misdeeds committed during the Bush years

179_1220573181

[Smokestack]

Return of the "Mavrick"

http://images.politico.com/global/mavrick.jpg


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/

[Morfin]

The Dumshit.

[Tar Heel]

What a moran.

[redsox39]

luA0AMP51Gc

Part 1 of 4 of O'Reilly's interview with Barack Obama.

Take what you will from it. More to come obviously.

The only critique I'd like to make (which ironically isn't political in nature) is that O'Reillly seemed to interview Obama in this segment (except for the beginning intro) in an interruptive manner that stuck me as rude, dismissive, and unprofessional at certain points during the segment. Did anyone else notice this?

Questions: Is this par for the course? Is this style of interviewing normal? Or was O'Reilly taking it easy on Obama?

I have to say...god am I really doing this...Obama handled himself quite well so far.

Write it down, take a picture, first nice thing I have said about Obama beside his last name is fun to say.

[Smokestack]

Looks like at least one of the hecklers from last night (not the Code Pink nightmare, obviously) was a Ron Paul supporter (http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=09&year=2008&base_name=interview_with_mccain_heckler):

INTERVIEW WITH MCCAIN HECKLER ADAM KOKESH.
Kokesh, a passionate Ron Paul supporter, is 26 and a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War. He served in Fallujah in 2004, grew up in Santa Fe, and currently lives in Washington, D.C. He has a website (http://kokesh.blogspot.com/).
At the beginning of McCain's speech, Kokesh held up a sign reading, "McCain Votes Against Vets" and yelled, "Ask him why he votes against vets!" I followed as Kokesh was escorted out of the Excel Center by security, handcuffed by local police, and then briefly questioned while security debated whether or not the Secret Service would get involved. They did not. He was then escorted off the premises and allowed to go free. I interviewed him just outside the security gates, where he was greeted happily by antiwar protesters.
Why were you here in the Twin Cities? And how did you get into the Excel Center?
I was here in Minneapolis for the IVAW convention and thought I’d stick around for this.
Well I’ve been a Ron Paul supporter since the beginning of this campaign. Since before this campaign started, actually, I’ve been a fan of Paul. So I’ve got a lot of friends in the Ron Paul crowd. And he’s got a lot of delegates in there. More than the Republican Party is willing to admit. And the fact that I got into there is proof of that. One of Paul’s alternate delegates got me a guest pass.
Were you surprised to be handcuffed? Or are you just relieved you were not arrested or detained longer?
I was actually expecting to get manhandled much sooner. [During the heckling], someone was grabbing my belt and pulling on me. And then someone pulled the sign out of my hands.
Do you feel your protest was effective?
Well I wasn’t so much trying to interrupt the speech as make the point that McCain has a horrible voting record on veterans. What the Republican Party is doing with their take on the war in Iraq is spinning it in such a way that it’s about victory or defeat. But they can’t face up to the fact that you can’t win an occupation. In an occupation, everybody loses. What we’re calling for is an immediate withdrawal of all occupying forces in Iraq.
Who will you vote for in November?
Bob Barr.

[momsshizzle]

I'm going for McCain.

[Mr. Brown]

that's for that contrbution

[The Batman]

that's for that contrbution


or lack of one.

[Mr. Brown]

Anyway I'm gonna say it; I'm tired of the "I'm a POW and I love my country and I'll defend it" stick. If a damn sea turtle is elected it's gonna have to defend the county. The president is the Commander and Chief of the military.

It's great to talk about I'm gonna fight for the county. What about what are you going to do for the country? How are you going to lower the unemployment? How are you going to help the millions of uninsured?

[The Batman]

Anyway I'm gonna say it; I'm tired of the "I'm a POW and I love my country and I'll defend it" stick. If a damn sea turtle is elected it's gonna have to defend the county. The president is the Commander and Chief of the military.

It's great to talk about I'm gonna fight for the county. What about what are you going to do for the country? How are you going to lower the unemployment? How are you going to help the millions of uninsured?

True, but you still can't discount the man is a hero. In fact, I think we should have a red carpet go where ever he walks, but does that mean he will be a good president, hell no.

[Mr. Brown]

Really your gonna milk that for the rest of his life? Then have one for every vet who has more awards and did more than he did.

[Tar Heel]

I would argue that the psychological damage done to him while being a POW makes him less qualified to be president. But he is still very much a real american hero.

[Rover]

Wow, I wonder who those 39% could be. If there was partisanship in this country, I just might be able to figure it out...Are you kidding? She has an R next to her name. I guarantee you you could put MY name in that poll, but with the usual, "The Republican, Stax, or the Democrat, Barack Obama" and you would get people saying I'd be a better president.Whoops.
However, following the Wednesday night speech, voters are fairly evenly divided as to whether Palin or Obama has the better experience to be President. Forty-four percent (44%) of voters say Palin has the better experience while 48% say Obama has the edge. Among unaffiliated voters, 45% say Obama has better experience while 42% say Palin.
Now the numbers are being updated after Palin's speech. I think 3% is within the MoE.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/palin_power_fresh_face_now_more_popular_than_obama _mccain
I think it has been mentioned here already, but I find it curious that McCain is the big shit, but wasn't big enough shit eight years ago. GWB was? How does one accept that reality?Parties usually have more than one candidate who is acceptable to the party. For instance in 1976, Gerald Ford beat Reagan. But Reagan won the nomination the next 2 times.
Great interruptions that wont help him...and what's with the balloons? They didn't win anything.

Why did Obama go on Bill O'Reilly...? Did he promise him something?!Obama went on O'Reilly because O'Reilly has the most viewers of any cable news show....by a lot. You can't reach voters if you go on shows nobody watches. But to get the 3 people who watch MSNBC, he'll be on Countdown on Monday, I think.

The balloon drop is traditional. Also, he did win something. He won the nomination to be the Republican representative on the presidential ballot for the general election in November.
The only critique I'd like to make (which ironically isn't political in nature) is that O'Reillly seemed to interview Obama in this segment (except for the beginning intro) in an interruptive manner that stuck me as rude, dismissive, and unprofessional at certain points during the segment. Did anyone else notice this?

Questions: Is this par for the course? Is this style of interviewing normal? Or was O'Reilly taking it easy on Obama?As a hyper-critical critic of FoxNews and O'Reilly, shouldn't you be more familiar with his interviewing style? For example, it's hard to critique a movie you haven't watched.

Yes, he interrupts to ask relevant questions and to tell people they aren't answering his questions.

I have to say...god am I really doing this...Obama handled himself quite well so far.

Write it down, take a picture, first nice thing I have said about Obama beside his last name is fun to say.He still can't answer the troop surge in Iraq questions with any credibility. Succeeded beyond anyone's expectations??? Anyone not named John McCain, maybe.

Obama is stuck arguing the past. He wants to keep arguing about whether we should have gone into Iraq. That stopped being relevant 5 years ago. We are there and we need to get out, without making everything collapse around. What's his strategy for that? 12 months ago, he wanted to withdraw as fast as possible.

[redsox39]

He still can't answer the troop surge in Iraq questions with any credibility. Succeeded beyond anyone's expectations??? Anyone not named John McCain, maybe.

Obama is stuck arguing the past. He wants to keep arguing about whether we should have gone into Iraq. That stopped being relevant 5 years ago. We are there and we need to get out, without making everything collapse around. What's his strategy for that? 12 months ago, he wanted to withdraw as fast as possible.

Oh, I don't like his answers (non answers) very much, I just though he handled himself well, and smiled when I know he can't want to be there.

[The Batman]

Really your gonna milk that for the rest of his life? Then have one for every vet who has more awards and did more than he did.

When you spend that much time and are willing to spend more time because it would be unfair for them to let you go, i say milk it for the rest of your life. However, again, doesn't make you a great leader. But this guy is gonna be a hero forever.

[Smokestack]

Obama is stuck arguing the past. He wants to keep arguing about whether we should have gone into Iraq. That stopped being relevant 5 years ago. We are there and we need to get out, without making everything collapse around. What's his strategy for that? 12 months ago, he wanted to withdraw as fast as possible.

By this logic, isn't continuing to argue for teh surge also dwelling on past?

[Claydon]

So, I think it was CBS News has obama and mccain tied up, and Gallup has Obama up by 4.

I am still surprised by these numbers, given the crowds that go to obama rallies. It is going to be a photo finish.

[kareyn01]

So, I think it was CBS News has obama and mccain tied up, and Gallup has Obama up by 4.

I am still surprised by these numbers, given the crowds that go to obama rallies. It is going to be a photo finish.

I'm getting really tired of poll manipulation, especially those that are attached to major networks (CBS, NBC, ABC). Look at the breakdown of responders to the last two CBS polls, and tell me if there's any actual movement from one poll to the next, or whether they manipulated the party affiliation of those they asked in order to fit a packaged narrative (DNC bounce, followed by RNC bounce)

The Previous CBS Poll


874 Respondents
228 R = 26.2%
308 D = 35.24%
337 I = 38.55%


The NEW CBS Poll


691 Respondents
215 R = 31.11%
241 D = 34.07%
235 I = 34.00%


I also think that any poll of "registered voters" is going to favor McCain by a few points because:

1) Obama is dominating the youth vote, which includes a large number of people who have either never been registered, or only have a cell phone; neither group is included in those polls

2) Registered voter polls have been notoriously inaccurate in the past, with one reason being because they don't factor in the enthusiasm gap (which, with the Palin selection, very well could be closing)

I don't mean to sound like I'm criticizing this poll because it's unfavorable to Obama, I just hate the manipulation of the polls by the polling companies, as well as their tendency to be completely inaccurate (see: Obama v. Clinton, New Hampshire primary).

EDIT: Just to clarify, the previous CBS poll had Obama up 48%-40%, which almost exactly corresponds to the 5.5% bump in Republican responders and 1.5% drop in Democratic responders from that poll to the new poll.

[Mr. Brown]

I used to work at a independent polling place during the 2004 election season. Most people who answer the polls are people who can't or don't go out to rallies. Also even those who are gun ho about one candidate or the other aren't willing to spend the time to answer the questions b/c they think it's gonna get miss used or something.

It's gonna come down to the wire unless someone win/loses big at one of the debates.

[Claydon]

I think McCain will do well in the debate and so will Obama (i think)...

gonna come down to palin and biden? So far, at least in a structured setting she does well.

[Mr. Brown]

1) Obama is dominating the youth vote, which includes a large number of people who have either never been registered, or only have a cell phone; neither group is included in those polls
.

Gallup talks to people with cell and landlines as did the various agencies that I worked for. The young and old are the best b/c they will answer all your questions.

[Claydon]

I also think that any poll of "registered voters" is going to favor McCain by a few points because:

1) Obama is dominating the youth vote, which includes a large number of people who have either never been registered, or only have a cell phone; neither group is included in those polls



The youth vote has NEVER proven to be reliable. Kids tend to scream and yell, and sign up to vote because they get a free bottle of water and chapstick, go to the rallies but then get stoned and forget to vote. The youth vote was suppose to bring Kerry through in 04.

[kareyn01]

I think McCain will do well in the debate and so will Obama (i think)...

gonna come down to palin and biden? So far, at least in a structured setting she does well.

Well, she hasn't talked about anything resembling an issue yet (which is more down to her speech writer than anything else), so there's really no knowing how she'll do. Based on overall knowledge of the issues, though, the edge has to go to Biden, especially considering Palin said she didn't know much about the Iraq war because she had been too busy.

[Mr. Brown]

I think McCain will do well in the debate and so will Obama (i think)...

gonna come down to palin and biden? So far, at least in a structured setting she does well.

It depends on the set up of the debates. If its a head to head town hall McCain may have the upper hand but if it's st8 question and answer it's a toss up.

As for the VP's I have no idea. All I know, and not to sound bias, but Palin better not keep with the one liners and attack and show she's got some depth or she could lose it for them.

[Le Goat]

I would argue that the psychological damage done to him while being a POW makes him less qualified to be president. But he is still very much a real american hero.

How does the psych damage make him less qualified? It's not like he's going to set-off a few nukes the first chance he hears about a tortured American. I'd actually argue the opposite. The man has clearly controlled the demon's he more than likely accrued from his years in captivity. If he hadn't, I think he'd be in a VA hospital somewhere, throwing his shit around like a frag grenade.

[kareyn01]

The youth vote has NEVER proven to be reliable. Kids tend to scream and yell, and sign up to vote because they get a free bottle of water and chapstick, go to the rallies but then get stoned and forget to vote. The youth vote was suppose to bring Kerry through in 04.

Except that the youth vote has already turned out in record numbers in the primary for Obama, so there's no reason to expect that they will magically disappear in the general. And statistically, the youth vote has been just as reliable in the past few elections as the elderly vote. That's a tried and true BS talking point that's been fairly well disproved in the last decade.

[Claydon]

Well, she hasn't talked about anything resembling an issue yet (which is more down to her speech writer than anything else), so there's really no knowing how she'll do. Based on overall knowledge of the issues, though, the edge has to go to Biden, especially considering Palin said she didn't know much about the Iraq war because she had been too busy.

Obama didn't get into the nitty gritty of issues until the end of the primary and everyone is fapping to his "hope change" tripe.

[Claydon]

Except that the youth vote has already turned out in record numbers in the primary for Obama, so there's no reason to expect that they will magically disappear in the general. And statistically, the youth vote has been just as reliable in the past few elections as the elderly vote. That's a tried and true BS talking point that's been fairly well disproved in the last decade.

Show me the numbers, the ONLY vote that is a reliable vote is the senior citizen vote. Youth vote is fickle, and flakey.

[Mr. Brown]

Show me the numbers, the ONLY vote that is a reliable vote is the senior citizen vote. Youth vote is fickle, and flakey.

flakey yea but I bet you some will vote to get extra credit for class. No lie my Sr year gov teacher gave those who had the ability to vote extra credit for voting.

[kareyn01]

Show me the numbers, the ONLY vote that is a reliable vote is the senior citizen vote. Youth vote is fickle, and flakey.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/passingthrough/327903

http://blog.rockthevote.com/2007/12/for-media-young-voter-myths-and-facts.html

CNN also reported that youth turnout was at record-highs in 20 of the states that voted on Super Tuesday.

And the youth vote did turn out for Kerry, its just that even with that increased bloc of voters, Republicans still far outnumbered Democrats in terms of registered voters in 2004.

[Claydon]

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/passingthrough/327903

http://blog.rockthevote.com/2007/12/for-media-young-voter-myths-and-facts.html

CNN also reported that youth turnout was at record-highs in 20 of the states that voted on Super Tuesday.

And the youth vote did turn out for Kerry, its just that even with that increased bloc of voters, Republicans still far outnumbered Democrats in terms of registered voters in 2004.

you can dump the blog from 'rock the vote' (they are still around). anyways i will check out the nation.

[kareyn01]

you can dump the blog from 'rock the vote' (they are still around). anyways i will check out the nation.

Believe me, I care as much about Rock the Vote as I do about The Hills, but all of their numbers come from external, linked sources, so its just as good as anything else on this topic.

[Claydon]

Interesting.... so it would appear at this time that mccain got higher ratings for his speech as compared to obama. NOW THIS MEAN NOTHING AT ALL in the grander scheme of things. Furthermore, I place no validity in this number as to mccain vs obama, I just found it somewhat interesting.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/09/mccain_tv_ratings_beat_obama_i.php

[kid_vidrio]

Interesting.... so it would appear at this time that mccain got higher ratings for his speech as compared to obama. NOW THIS MEAN NOTHING AT ALL in the grander scheme of things. Furthermore, I place no validity in this number as to mccain vs obama, I just found it somewhat interesting.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/09/mccain_tv_ratings_beat_obama_i.php
I personally had greater interest in seeing both Palin and McCain after seeing Obama - to see how they compared.
I would say this all a huge boon to the networks and will generate more ad money, by far, than any previous campaign.

[Claydon]

I personally had greater interest in seeing both Palin and McCain after seeing Obama - to see how they compared.
I would say this all a huge boon to the networks and will generate more ad money, by far, than any previous campaign.

The amount of money these two guys have is just silly. McCain has 200 million coming out of this convention, and obama has....


100....billion...dollars!

[The Batman]

This is all i have to say about McCain
http://i34.tinypic.com/24cidqt.jpg


(and to those who are missing it, thats George Bush's face. on McCains face.)

[Claydon]

This is all i have to say about McCain
http://i34.tinypic.com/24cidqt.jpg


(and to those who are missing it, thats George Bush's face. on McCains face.)

Clearly you are eating the scraps from the table of the democrats. Although a little original thinking may be well beyond your ability, you may want to actually look into the history of McCain in the senate over the last 8 years before posting such a lame thing.

Although it is a nice photoshop job. But then again, that is all the left can offer, a false reality.

[The Batman]

Clearly you are eating the scraps from the table of the democrats. Although a little original thinking may be well beyond your ability, you may want to actually look into the history of McCain in the senate over the last 8 years before posting such a lame thing.

Although it is a nice photoshop job. But then again, that is all the left can offer, a false reality.


i know. It was just to be funny. I have infinitetly more respect for McCain than I would ever have for Bush. Hell I wouldn't piss on Bush if he was on fire.

[Claydon]

i know. It was just to be funny. I have infinitetly more respect for McCain than I would ever have for Bush. Hell I wouldn't piss on Bush if he was on fire.

I would....

then I would ask for my paychecks to be tax free for life.

[steverino]

Palin is super stupid. Case and point: she named her kid track because she likes to run. She is kinda hot, though, and that is good.

[Debo]

Boo-yah!

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[steverino]

I just saw P. Ditty's political blog. He should definitely go away, too. He doesn't even have any credibility as a rapper, and come to think of it, he NEVER did.

[steverino]

Boo-yah!

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Is this the guy that called Obama a "long legged mac daddy?"

[bpb]

Is he super stupid, too?

[Debo]

Palin is super stupid. Case and point: she named her kid track because she likes to run. She is kinda hot, though, and that is good.

Where do your children's names come from?
TODD: Sarah's parents were coaches and the whole family was involved in track and I was an athlete in high school, so with our first-born, I was, like, 'Track!' Bristol is named after Bristol Bay. That's where I grew up, that's where we commercial fish. Willow is a community there in Alaska. And then Piper, you know, there's just not too many Pipers out there and it's a cool name. And Trig is a Norse name for "strength."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20222685_2,00.html

[Debo]

Is this the guy that called Obama a "long legged mac daddy?"

I have no idea. I just found the entire thing very entertaining.

But I might start calling Obama a "long legged mac daddy". It has a nice ring to it.

[vasili denisov]

Yeah, boo-yah. What a quality free market thinker you've got there. Maybe you should check if Hitler has a youtube video on this issue too.

Pastor Manning achieved some controversy in the 2008 presidential election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008) after ATLAH posted several sermons of his that were harshly critical of Democratic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_%28United_States%29) candidate Barack Obama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama) on the website YouTube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YouTube)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_David_Manning#cite_note-6). Most notably, he called Obama a "good house negro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_tom#Other_terms_with_similar_meanings)" in one sermon[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_David_Manning#cite_note-7) while in another, he referred to Obama as "trash" due to his mixed race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_race) heritage accused him of being a "pimp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pimp)," citing the popular viral video (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_video) "I Got a Crush... on Obama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Got_a_Crush..._on_Obama)" as evidence.
Pastor Manning is fiercely opposed to the gentrification of Harlem[3] and calls for its residents to boycott its shops, restaurants, doctors, banks and churches.[4] That action, combined with a general rent strike, would force all property owners out of Harlem, he said, leaving the neighborhood to its rightful inheritors: black people.[1][5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_David_Manning

[Debo]

Yeah, boo-yah. What a quality free market thinker you've got there. Maybe you should check if Hitler has a youtube video on this issue too.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_David_Manning

Seriously? I just found the guy's rant to be entertaining because it was so out there. I don't remember endorsing anything that he said.

You have to admit that Obama's mama is kind of catchy.

If you question my free market credentials, go read my old posts from the old board. My prior statements speak for themselves.

[Mr. Brown]

Boo-yah!

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Who this fuck is this guy? That's why people don't like most TV pastors. Calling people's children homosexual and calling people's mother trash? The Christianly that I was taught doesn't condone that shit. I mean that was really uncalled for. Yes the media is going after the daughter and I don't agree with that it doesn’t give him the right to say shit like that. You know why some black men ended up with white women back then, b/c many black females are never happy with what they have. So black men went for women who wanted them just the way they were. I can't believe that he has the nerve to try and be called the honorable James Manning with hateful speech like that spewing from his mouth. It's shit like that and the attack ads from no affiliated people that turn off many to the politics of our nation. Man I'm really disgusted by that.

[Hanover Fist]

Who this fuck is this guy? That's why people don't like most TV pastors. Calling people's children homosexual and calling people's mother trash? The Christianly that I was taught doesn't condone that shit. I mean that was really uncalled for. Yes the media is going after the daughter and I don't agree with that it doesn’t give him the right to say shit like that. You know why some black men ended up with white women back then, b/c many black females are never happy with what they have. So black men went for women who wanted them just the way they were. I can't believe that he has the nerve to try and be called the honorable James Manning with hateful speech like that spewing from his mouth. It's shit like that and the attack ads from no affiliated people that turn off many to the politics of our nation. Man I'm really disgusted by that.

I can't stand Obama and this guy offends me too.
Damn, it took me like 3 tries to type this out without typos, I think I might be a hair fucked up.

[Mr. Brown]

Yeah I may not be for McCain and hate that he keep waving his POW experience, but I'd never be for baseless attacks like this.

[Smokestack]

Clearly you are eating the scraps from the table of the democrats. Although a little original thinking may be well beyond your ability, you may want to actually look into the history of McCain in the senate over the last 8 years before posting such a lame thing.


Agreed. The link between Bush and McCain over the last eight years is such unoriginal thinking that the Republicans just pulled off an entire convention in which a sitting two-term president was barely featured, barely mentioned (and when he was mentioned, not by name) and in which they co-opted the message of "change." Change from what, genius? Was Al Gore president?

If you think Democrats are craven for linking McCain to Bush, then at least be up front about the blatant and disingenuous disassociation Republicans are making between Bush and McCain, who share a remarkably similar voting record. Superfuckingmavericky.

[Debo]

Yeah I may not be for McCain and hate that he keep waving his POW experience, but I'd never be for baseless attacks like this.

The guy is a psycho. I only posted it because it is so over the top and you don't see something like it everyday. It is kind of like rubbernecking when you see a bad car accident. You don't want to look, but you do.

[kid_vidrio]

Entertaining article about the use of music at the convention(s).
Some of you will particularly like the reader's comments at the bottom.
Under the law, candidates can use any song they want as background music so long as they pay the necessary licensing fees.
The legal waters are murkier when a song becomes an integral part of a stage production, like the use of "Barracuda" to introduce Palin at the RNC (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Republican+National+Committee), one legal expert said. Express permission is required for ads.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/09/05/2008-09-05_use_of_barracuda_for_sarah_palin_nets_go.html

[Okie Medicvet]

Am I the only one that found some of the stuff at the GOP convention creepy? the U-S-A stuff seemed to me to intimate that their side was more patriotic..wtf? And am I the only one that thinks that one of the best things to happen to the convention was the serendipitous (for them) occurrence of hurricane Gustav to say they are 'scaling down' because of it and that enables them to have a 'legitimate' reason for not having Cheney show up and only having Bush give a long distance address to the convention?

I am voting for Barak Obama because I am utterly sick and tired of the politics as usual, and have been for him since he BEGAN his campaign and read his books and listened to him discuss the kind of changes he would make when elected.

I think that McCain's nomination of Palin to be a smooth move that would have made slick willie proud. Talk about pandering the conservative Christian Fundie vote! Thought it was incredibly hypocritical to tout her as a good veep choice when she doesn't have that much experience herself and that is part of what they have been harping on. And have to admit I thought it was fucking smarmy, snarky, and patronizing to make fun of and belittle Obama's experience as a community organizer. That is a part of what this country is all about, with grass roots movements that reach out towards and speak up for not just the wealthy and influential but the middle class who are the backbone of this nation and the poor and disenfranchised whose voice goes too often unheard.

[Debo]

Bromance alert!

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[Claydon]

Am I the only one that found some of the stuff at the GOP convention creepy? the U-S-A stuff seemed to me to intimate that their side was more patriotic..wtf? And am I the only one that thinks that one of the best things to happen to the convention was the serendipitous (for them) occurrence of hurricane Gustav to say they are 'scaling down' because of it and that enables them to have a 'legitimate' reason for not having Cheney show up and only having Bush give a long distance address to the convention?

I am voting for Barak Obama because I am utterly sick and tired of the politics as usual, and have been for him since he BEGAN his campaign and read his books and listened to him discuss the kind of changes he would make when elected.

I think that McCain's nomination of Palin to be a smooth move that would have made slick willie proud. Talk about pandering the conservative Christian Fundie vote! Thought it was incredibly hypocritical to tout her as a good veep choice when she doesn't have that much experience herself and that is part of what they have been harping on. And have to admit I thought it was fucking smarmy, snarky, and patronizing to make fun of and belittle Obama's experience as a community organizer. That is a part of what this country is all about, with grass roots movements that reach out towards and speak up for not just the wealthy and influential but the middle class who are the backbone of this nation and the poor and disenfranchised whose voice goes too often unheard.

I know you have great passion about this messiah of yours, your version of Muadib, however by grabbing Biden for the ticket you can be rest assured that it will politics as usual. You think millions have been given to Obama and the democrats out of just sheer love? People will call in their favors.....its not over yet. Furthermore, by abdicating public funds (which was a sound move I will admit) he is taking in tons of money from people who will want tons of favors. You think CEOs who give him 2 grand wont want favors?

[Debo]

Am I the only one that found some of the stuff at the GOP convention creepy? the U-S-A stuff seemed to me to intimate that their side was more patriotic..wtf? And am I the only one that thinks that one of the best things to happen to the convention was the serendipitous (for them) occurrence of hurricane Gustav to say they are 'scaling down' because of it and that enables them to have a 'legitimate' reason for not having Cheney show up and only having Bush give a long distance address to the convention?

I am voting for Barak Obama because I am utterly sick and tired of the politics as usual, and have been for him since he BEGAN his campaign and read his books and listened to him discuss the kind of changes he would make when elected.

I think that McCain's nomination of Palin to be a smooth move that would have made slick willie proud. Talk about pandering the conservative Christian Fundie vote! Thought it was incredibly hypocritical to tout her as a good veep choice when she doesn't have that much experience herself and that is part of what they have been harping on. And have to admit I thought it was fucking smarmy, snarky, and patronizing to make fun of and belittle Obama's experience as a community organizer. That is a part of what this country is all about, with grass roots movements that reach out towards and speak up for not just the wealthy and influential but the middle class who are the backbone of this nation and the poor and disenfranchised whose voice goes too often unheard.

The GOP base is the flag waving, beer drinking, NASCAR loving crowd. Chanting USA-USA is music to their ears..and mine.

What kind of "change" does Obama really represent? His entire platform is right out of the far left's playbook. Granted, he puts on a good show, but what does he offer that I can't get out from Ted Kennedy or Nancy Pelosi right now?

[Claydon]

The GOP base is the flag waving, beer drinking, NASCAR loving crowd. Chanting USA-USA is music to their ears..and mine.

What kind of "change" does Obama really represent? His entire platform is right out of the far left's playbook. Granted, he puts on a good show, but what does he offer that I can't get out from Ted Kennedy or Nancy Pelosi right now?


Apparently he has been saying for year (according to supporters on this forum) that the surge was successful. Funny, I heard a different tune from his sound bytes over the last year ie it was a failure. I guess this statement of success is due to his so called repositioning.

[Debo]

Apparently he has been saying for year (according to supporters on this forum) that the surge was successful. Funny, I heard a different tune from his sound bytes over the last year ie it was a failure. I guess this statement of success is due to his so called repositioning.

He admits that it worked, but he still criticizes the Iraqi government.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/40d22fc0-7ae9-11dd-adbe-000077b07658.html

[Okie Medicvet]

His practices of gaining campaign funds are still far more ethical that that of McCains. And Obama is the first cadidate I have not just voted for but campaigned for and contributed towards. But I am willing to not force him to do exactly and perfectly what I would want him too, even if I did give that $15. :p

So tell me though, have you read McCains books? The ones that each time he had to have ghostwriters assist him, either with or without the co-author tag? Becuse I have read Faith of my Fathers, and yes, I found his story to be engrossing and enlightening. Also, every book of his has a ghostwriter/co-author, whether listed or not. One of the things that I really like and respect about Obama is that he writes his own material, including the speeches, so even if reread by a teleprompter, it is his OWN WORDS.

I have nothing major against McCain, except for the fact that over 90% he voted with Dubya. How on God's green earth is he able to tout that HE is the new agent of change with a record like that????????

While the choice of Palin did narrow down the gap between the two considerably so it is now a neck and neck race, I have high hopes that he will squash McCain in the debates. The debates, to my way of thinking anyways, are Obama's to lose. The expectations aren't quite as high with the vice-presidential debate, so it would be more impressive if Biden walked away with the win.

[Claydon]

His practices of gaining campaign funds are still far more ethical that that of McCains. And Obama is the first cadidate I have not just voted for but campaigned for and contributed towards. But I am willing to not force him to do exactly and perfectly what I would want him too, even if I did give that $15. :p

So tell me though, have you read McCains books? The ones that each time he had to have ghostwriters assist him, either with or without the co-author tag? Becuse I have read Faith of my Fathers, and yes, I found his story to be engrossing and enlightening. Also, every book of his has a ghostwriter/co-author, whether listed or not. One of the things that I really like and respect about Obama is that he writes his own material, including the speeches, so even if reread by a teleprompter, it is his OWN WORDS.

I have nothing major against McCain, except for the fact that over 90% he voted with Dubya. How on God's green earth is he able to tout that HE is the new agent of change with a record like that????????

While the choice of Palin did narrow down the gap between the two considerably so it is now a neck and neck race, I have high hopes that he will squash McCain in the debates. The debates, to my way of thinking anyways, are Obama's to lose. The expectations aren't quite as high with the vice-presidential debate, so it would be more impressive if Biden walked away with the win.


McCain has pissed off the current incarnation of the republican party more times than I can count. Unlike others, he is way more bipartisan....more so than Barry.

[Debo]

His practices of gaining campaign funds are still far more ethical that that of McCains. And Obama is the first cadidate I have not just voted for but campaigned for and contributed towards. But I am willing to not force him to do exactly and perfectly what I would want him too, even if I did give that $15. :p

So tell me though, have you read McCains books? The ones that each time he had to have ghostwriters assist him, either with or without the co-author tag? Becuse I have read Faith of my Fathers, and yes, I found his story to be engrossing and enlightening. Also, every book of his has a ghostwriter/co-author, whether listed or not. One of the things that I really like and respect about Obama is that he writes his own material, including the speeches, so even if reread by a teleprompter, it is his OWN WORDS.

I have nothing major against McCain, except for the fact that over 90% he voted with Dubya. How on God's green earth is he able to tout that HE is the new agent of change with a record like that????????

While the choice of Palin did narrow down the gap between the two considerably so it is now a neck and neck race, I have high hopes that he will squash McCain in the debates. The debates, to my way of thinking anyways, are Obama's to lose. The expectations aren't quite as high with the vice-presidential debate, so it would be more impressive if Biden walked away with the win.

None of this answers how Obama is any different than the run of the mill liberal.

I am not a McCain fan, I am anti-Obama fan. My ideal politician would be a mix of Ron Paul on economic issues, Rudy Giuliani on social issues and John Bolton on foreign policy. So no, I have no read any of his books.

Who cares who writes their speeches or their books? I didn't realize that I was voting for the Pulitzer prize or Speech of the year.

It depends on the debate format. If they are townhall debates, McCain will roast him because Obama is not good when he is off script, but McCain is. On the flipside, Obama is very good when he has time to prepare his statements, while McCain is not that great at delivering on the stump.

[Okie Medicvet]

No, not a pulizter prize winner, but at least he is someone with his own thoughts and ideas and not what is spoon fed for him to say from his 'handlers'.

I also find it highly ironic that McCain talks about being a "maverick" yet has spent more time in the beltway than Obama...but when it's Obama, it's not being a 'mavrik' (GOP spelling to translate :p ) by being off the beltway but lack of experience. ...but then a veep with little experience ( except perhaps in reading soundbites instead of saying anything with substance in her own words) is nominated with a lack of experience.

Wait, not ironic..HYPOCRITICAL is the word of the day.

[Debo]

No, not a pulizter prize winner, but at least he is someone with his own thoughts and ideas and not what is spoon fed for him to say from his 'handlers'.

I also find it highly ironic that McCain talks about being a "maverick" yet has spent more time in the beltway than Obama...but when it's Obama, it's not being a 'mavrik' (GOP spelling to translate :p ) by being off the beltway but lack of experience. ...but then a veep with little experience ( except perhaps in reading soundbites instead of saying anything with substance in her own words) is nominated with a lack of experience.

Wait, not ironic..HYPOCRITICAL is the word of the day.

Should I take this to mean that you can't point out how he is different than the extreme left wing of the Democratic party?

[Okie Medicvet]

So according to some he is 'extreme', but to me, he is more in sync with my own ideals than any other candidate has been for over twenty years, so yes, I am a happy camper that he is the democratic candidate.:D

[Mr. Brown]

So according to some he is 'extreme', but to me, he is more in sync with my own ideals than any other candidate has been for over twenty years, so yes, I am a happy camper that he is the democratic candidate.:D

That's exactly how I feel

[freegood]

That's one way to end corruption...

Team McCain and the Trooper

Nominee's ally moves to curb probe of Palin
Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball
Newsweek Web Exclusive
Updated: 9:36 PM ET Sep 5, 2008

Key Alaska allies of John McCain are trying to derail a politically charged investigation into Gov. Sarah Palin's firing of her public safety commissioner in order to prevent a so-called "October surprise" that would produce embarrassing information about the vice presidential candidate on the eve of the election.

In a move endorsed by the McCain campaign Friday, John Coghill, the GOP chairman of the state House Rules Committee, wrote a letter seeking a meeting of Alaska's bipartisan Legislative Council in order to remove the Democratic state senator in charge of the so-called "troopergate" investigation.

Coghill charged that the senator, Hollis French, had "politicized" the probe by making a number of public comments in recent days, including telling ABC News that Palin had a "credibility problem" and that the investigation into the firing of public safety commissioner Walter Monegan was "likely to be damaging to the administration" and could be an "October surprise." Wrote Coghill: "The investigation appears to be lacking in fairness, neutrality and due process."

The investigation, authorized by the Legislative Council last July, revolves around charges that Palin abused her power by embroiling the governor's office in a bitter family feud involving her ex-brother in law, a state trooper named Mike Wooten. Specifically, the council is investigating whether Palin fired Monegan when he refused to dismiss Wooten (who at the time was involved in an ugly custody battle with Palin's sister) after getting repeated complaints about him from the governor and her husband, Todd Palin. (Among the allegations that were raised against Wooten by Palin's sister: he had Tasered his ten-year-old stepson and shot a moose without a permit.) Palin has denied wrongdoing; Monegan has said he believes his firing was connected to his refusal to fire Wooten.

French, the Democrat overseeing the probe, has hired a special counsel to determine, in effect, whether Palin "used her public office to settle a private score," he recently said. He has also suggested that the probe may turn up evidence that state laws were violated by Palin's aides because they pulled confidential personnel files on the trooper.

But Coghill, who told NEWSWEEK that he has the backing of Republican Speaker of the House John Harris in his effort to remove French, suggested Friday that the investigation into Palin's firing of Monegan should be shut down entirely. "If this has been botched up the way it has, there's a question as to whether it should continue," Coghill told NEWSWEEK.

The move underscored the huge political stakes in the outcome of a legislative investigation that is being closely monitored by both the McCain and Obama campaigns because of its potential impact on the fall election. "How can this possibly be read as anything but a partisan attempt to shut down a legitimate investigation that was approved and funded with bipartisan support?" said one state Democratic legislative aide, who asked not to be identified because of the political sensitivities. Coghill told NEWSWEEK that he decided to write his letter to strip French of his position on his own-without any coaxing by McCain campaign officials.

But a top McCain campaign official acknowledged that the GOP lawyer had given the campaign a "heads up" about his letter and that the McCain campaign approved of the effort to remove French.

"An investigation that was supposed to be non-partisan has become a political circus and has gotten out of control," said Taylor Griffin, a top communications aide dispatched from McCain campaign headquarters to Alaska this week to monitor the investigation and related matters. (Griffin also said that Palin has "nothing to hide" about the Wooten matter.)

As a further sign of the sensitivity of the probe, a lawyer for Palin told NEWSWEEK Friday that Todd Palin, the governor's husband, was in the process of hiring his own separate counsel to represent him in the legislature's probe. Thomas Van Flein, Governor Palin's lawyer, would not identify who is now representing the governor's husband. But he sought to deflect charges that Todd Palin, a commercial fisherman and oil company worker, had improperly intervened in state business by inviting Monegan to the governor's office and asking him to look into Wooten's status on the state police force. (For his part, Wooten has acknowledged that he "made mistakes," but that he was "punished appropriately" when he was suspended from the police force for five days in 2006.)

In an interview on Friday, Van Flein sought to deflect charges that Todd Palin may have acted improperly by talking to the state public safety commissioner about Wooten. Todd was "the governor's husband and a citizen of the state and he has every right to an opinion as [does] everyone else," Van Flein said.

One major reason the probe is so sensitive is that it raises the prospect that Governor Palin's credibility could be called into a question in a major state probe on the eve of the election. When the "troopergate" story broke over the summer, Palin adamantly denied that anybody in her administration exerted any pressure on Monegan to fire Wooten. But only weeks later, a tape recording surfaced in which another one of her top aides, Frank Bailey, was heard telling a police lieutenant, "Todd and Sarah are scratching their heads, 'Why on earth hasn't this, why is this guy [Wooten] still representing the department?'"

French today acknowledged that some of his public comments about the ongoing probe may have been out of bounds. "I said some things I shouldn't have said," he told NEWSWEEK. But he insisted he had no intention of stepping down because the investigation was really being conducted by Steve Branchflower, a retired state prosecutor who was hired as the special counsel in the probe. French also said today he had moved up the deadline for Branchflower to produce his report. Although it was originally due Oct. 31, the Friday before the election, it will now be completed Oct. 10-in order to be "as far away from the election" as possible.

In the interview with NEWSWEEK, Van Flein, Governor Palin's lawyer, raised other objections to the troopergate probe. He said the legislative investigation ran counter to the Alaska Constitution because it was being conducted in secret and without strict procedural rules. He said that in the "post-McCarthy era", he would have expected more due process guarantees.

Van Flein also told NEWSWEEK that as part of defense preparations for the investigation, he had taken his own depositions from potential witnesses—including one this week who refused to give testimony to the Legislature's special counsel. That was Frank Bailey, the former senior Palin aide who was recorded mentioning the concerns of Palin and her husband that Wooten was still on the police force.

In the deposition taken by Van Flein, which Palin's lawyer made available to NEWSWEEK, Bailey acknowledged he had "overstepped my boundaries... I should not have spoken for the governor, or Todd, for that matter. I went out on my own on this discussion."

But Bailey also confirmed in the deposition that Palin had herself raised Wooten's name with the state police during her first security briefing after she won election as governor in November 2006. Bailey said he sat in on the briefing with Gary Wheeler, then head of the governor's security detail. Wheeler asked Palin and her husband whether they were aware of any threats against her that the new bodyguards should be concerned about. "They specifically brought up only one person, and that was Mike Wooten," Bailey testified. "There was a serious genuine concern about not only their safety but the safety of their family, their kids, their nieces, nephews, her father, regarding Trooper Wooten." Bailey testified that Sarah Palin never asked him to do anything about Trooper Wooten, but that Todd Palin did talk to him about "issues about Trooper Wooten," and expressed "frustration" that the state police were doing nothing to respond to the Palins' concerns.
URL: http://www.newsweek.com/id/157439

[Claydon]

So according to some he is 'extreme', but to me, he is more in sync with my own ideals than any other candidate has been for over twenty years, so yes, I am a happy camper that he is the democratic candidate.:D

And your ideals are??????? Free health care? Free college? Free everything? I hear a lot of spending from obama but no talk about how to pay for shit other than wealth redistribution. Under the Obama plan my wife and I are rich which is laughable. So, wants to spend a lot of money but no means to pay... sounds like Washington as usual to me.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

And your ideals are??????? Free health care? Free college? Free everything? I hear a lot of spending from obama but no talk about how to pay for shit other than wealth redistribution. Under the Obama plan my wife and I are rich which is laughable. So, wants to spend a lot of money but no means to pay... sounds like Washington as usual to me.

awww...leave him be Claydon.

If Obama shits in his coffee cup, he asks for seconds. What does Okie care....he doesn't have to pay for any of it?

Typical Dem bullshit.....set a goal, with no fucking idea how to achieve it.

I always vote for less Govt interference, and that don't mean a lib.

[Grieves]

So, wants to spend a lot of money but no means to pay... sounds like Washington as usual to me.Yes, it's right inline with expanding an empire across the globe and cutting, or at least saying you will cut, taxes. All the while, the foundation of the U.S. crumbles beneath it's feet.

Liberals and neo-cons are in smash and grab style competition to take as much wealth out from under the American people that they can get away with, while most of the general public's priorities lie with texting their votes like mad for the next American Idol and worrying if they can make their wardrobe match their IPhone for a full week.

[Morfin]

Wow. So cynical and yet so accurate.

[Smokestack]

And your ideals are??????? Free health care? Free college? Free everything? I hear a lot of spending from obama but no talk about how to pay for shit other than wealth redistribution. Under the Obama plan my wife and I are rich which is laughable. So, wants to spend a lot of money but no means to pay... sounds like Washington as usual to me.

Speaking of laughable, do you really believe that McCain's crusade against earmarks will pay for his continuation of Bush's tax cuts and the Iraq War? My friends, that's complete bullshit we can believe in.

[Claydon]

Speaking of laughable, do you really believe that McCain's crusade against earmarks will pay for his continuation of Bush's tax cuts and the Iraq War? My friends, that's complete bullshit we can believe in.

Ok...so you stop iraq war spending right now. 120 billion a year.... that leaves another 300 billion plus in deficit spending. To get rid of that we may have to cut into programs that are the real culprits of deficit spending... like 1.5 trillion of social security, medicare et al.

[Pharon]

Ok...so you stop iraq war spending right now. 120 billion a year.... that leaves another 300 billion plus in deficit spending. To get rid of that we may have to cut into programs that are the real culprits of deficit spending... like 1.5 trillion of social security, medicare et al.
It's too bad that neither party, nor the presidential candidates who currently represent them, have the balls to actually make any of those cuts.

The Republican Party had ample opportunity to do that in the past 8 years (or at least in the first 6 of them) and what did they do? They INCREASED spending dramatically. So fuck them.

The Republican Party needs a major overhaul in the form of a shitload of fiscal conservatives actually making it to Congress (i.e. Ron Paul). Until that happens, I don't give a shit about who's in charge.

[Smokestack]

Triumph at the Republican Convention:

VKwesxb83c4

[Claydon]

It's too bad that neither party, nor the presidential candidates who currently represent them, have the balls to actually make any of those cuts.

The Republican Party had ample opportunity to do that in the past 8 years (or at least in the first 6 of them) and what did they do? They INCREASED spending dramatically. So fuck them.

The Republican Party needs a major overhaul in the form of a shitload of fiscal conservatives actually making it to Congress (i.e. Ron Paul). Until that happens, I don't give a shit about who's in charge.


I will give Bush credit for 2 things, using Patreus in Iraq, and attempting to tackle social security issues. Anyone that attempts to touch social security might as well be commit suicide. Neither party has the balls to do anything about this welfare programs, all they know how to do is raise the debt ceiling by 800 billion to 1 trillion at a time.


fags

[TheImpossibleMan]

http://www.the-isb.com/images/SavageDragon137.jpg

[/thread]

[/election]

[Okie Medicvet]

See the other thread in this area for my feelings on Palin, but I will also reiterate here how dangerous she really is as a true religious fundie. Now I don't care what religion she actually IS, a fundamentalist of ANY faith is a dangerous person, be that Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever.

Can you imagine how much illegal..wait, according to the unpatriotic act it's legal, wiretapping and surveillance would be going on??? It would be like what goes on today squared to the nth degree. I take it very seriously that this woman wants to ban books.

[Pharon]

I will give Bush credit for 2 things, using Patreus in Iraq, and attempting to tackle social security issues. Anyone that attempts to touch social security might as well be commit suicide. Neither party has the balls to do anything about this welfare programs, all they know how to do is raise the debt ceiling by 800 billion to 1 trillion at a time.


fags
He actually did two other things that might actually justify all the other shitty things he did in office -- Roberts and Alito -- basically solidifying good conservative representation on the bench for another 20 years or so.

[Federal Farmer]

As far as I know, both men meet the qualifications in the Constitution for President. Obama was the one that was actually born in the USA, though.
No he wasn't, he was born in Kenya. Oh, and BTW, John McCain was born on a US military installation, which IS and always has been, soveriegn US territory.