2008 Election - Offseason

[The Dude]

http://images.cafepress.com/image/20919054_400x400.jpg

[Claydon]

Let the games continue!

[Void]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/446446539_78e731d723.jpg

[StrangeBrew]

John McCain is dumb.

[Claydon]

John McCain is dumb.

Clearly a scholar amongst us.

[camvike]

John McCain is dumb.

If by dumb you mean far more qualified to be president than Obama, then yes. John McCain is really really dumb.

[StrangeBrew]

As far as I know, both men meet the qualifications in the Constitution for President. Obama was the one that was actually born in the USA, though.

[Claydon]

As far as I know, both men meet the qualifications in the Constitution for President. Obama was the one that was actually born in the USA, though.

Fail....

according to you and your victimhood society, the level of melanin makes obama more qualified.

[StrangeBrew]

How did I fail? That's a fact, dude.

[Claydon]

How did I fail? That's a fact, dude.

its a fact that obama is more qualified based on the pigment of his epidermis?

[StrangeBrew]

All I said was that according to the Constitution, they are both qualified to be President.

[vasili denisov]

Fail....

according to you and your victimhood society, the level of melanin makes obama more qualified.
I'm gonna continue to doubt the existence of this so-called "victimhood society" until they start giving me money for my suffering.

[Blackface_RDJ]

I'm gonna continue to doubt the existence of this so-called "victimhood society" until they start giving me money for my suffering.

im still waiting for my money from the OJ victory

[Feng]

Did anybody here see McCain's awkward appearance at the Sturgis harley week? He was volunteering (exploiting) his wife for their topless contest.

[vasili denisov]

Did anybody here see McCain's awkward appearance at the Sturgis harley week? He was volunteering (exploiting) his wife for their topless contest.
This sorry, degrading episode makes me long for the alternate universe where Dennis Kucinich is the republican nominee.

[Night Hawk]

I just feel like Obama is a better candidate.. i have absolutely no facts, or anything at all to back my decision... its just a feeling i guess. maybe i like that he has hair.

[Morfin]

You can't judge a candidate by his hair. This is for the presidency, man. You have to look at something relevant. Like, whether he can bowl or not.

[Feng]

McCain has hair - it's just old-man hair...

[Dr. Doctor]

Obama?
McCain?

Ron Paul 08.

[Feng]

All I said was that according to the Constitution, they are both qualified to be President.

That is the beauty of the USA system... Any citizen who meets a few basic constitutional requirements can run and, in theory, be elected for president...

Years served in military, or being a POW, or being a senator or congressman for x years, or policy maker or anything else that makes you a bonafide politician is not what it takes to be a president, in theory.

Anyhew, if this country has the balls to elect a semi-colored man with world-wide appeal, this country just might grow up a little and regain a little respect back.

[Smokestack]

One of the original ONs (Original Neocons) endorses Barack Obama. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing...

Iraq May Be Stable,
But the War Was a Mistake

By FRANCIS FUKUYAMA
August 15, 2008; Page A13

Sometime in May 2003, shortly after U.S. forces had taken Baghdad and President Bush landed on an aircraft carrier under the banner "Mission Accomplished," an old friend remarked that he thought the war was going pretty well so far. I shook my head and said I thought we were in for trouble.
I bet him that day that Iraq would be a mess in five years' time, a mess being defined as "you'll know it when you see it." I mentioned this bet to Bret Stephens three years later. He'd reviewed my book, "America at the Crossroads" in this newspaper, accusing me, among other things, of turning against the war only when public opinion had shifted. Mr. Stephens wanted to take the wager himself. And as he wrote in his column earlier this month, I conceded that he'd won by the narrow terms of the wager.
Iraq was a mess by any definition from the fall of 2003 to the beginning of this year. It is entirely possible that it will return to being a mess in the coming months and years. But I paid $100 to Mr. Stephens because a tremendous amount of progress has been made stabilizing Iraq as a result of President Bush's surge -- which has allowed Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to establish control over Baghdad and much of southern Iraq.
Though Iraq remains a very troubled country, virtually all of the trend lines -- Iraqi and U.S. casualties, government provision of basic services, and the ability of Iraqi forces to provide order -- have been moving in a positive direction for the past year.
What I absolutely did not concede, however, was the fact that this change meant that the war itself was worth it. By invading Iraq in the manner it did, the U.S. exacerbated all of the threats it faced prior to 2003. Recruitment into terrorist cells shot up all over the world. North Korea and Iran accelerated their development of nuclear weapons.
Indeed, Iran has emerged as the dominant regional power in the Persian Gulf once the U.S. removed its major rival from the scene and put its Shiite clients into power in Baghdad. While everyone is better off without Saddam Hussein around, the cost was hugely disproportionate. If you don't believe this, ask yourself whether Congress would ever have voted to authorize the war in 2002 if it knew there was no WMD, or that there would be trillion-dollar budget outlays, or that there would be 30,000 dead and wounded after five years of bitter struggle.
There are deeper, intangible costs. The Bush administration this week rebuked Russia for its disproportionate military intervention in Georgia; many rightly suspect Moscow's real goal is regime change of the pro-Western, democratic government in Tbilisi. But who set the most recent precedent for a big power intervening to change a regime it didn't like, without the sanction of the U.N. Security Council or any other legitimating international body?
Of course, there is no moral equivalence between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and Mikheil Saakashvili's Georgia. But the U.S. is scarcely in a position today to rally opposition to Russia on the basis of international law and norms constraining the strong from using force against the weak.
Republican presidential candidate John McCain says he was right in supporting the surge and that Democrat Barack Obama was wrong in opposing it. On this tactical issue I grant that Sen. McCain was right. But Sen. Obama was right on the much more important strategic question of whether the war itself was a prudent policy, and here Mr. McCain remains as wrong as ever.
Mr. Obama does not share McCain's instinctive reliance on hard power as the primary instrument for dealing with messy questions of terrorism and proliferation in the broader Middle East. This is one reason I support him for president.
Mr. Obama and other long-time opponents of the Iraq war are strongly disinclined to admit anything is going well in Iraq. Psychologically and politically, this is understandable: The smallest concession induces supporters of the war to argue that they were right all along, as Mr. Stephens did.
But Mr. Obama should fervently hope that Iraq is not a mess if and when he takes office, since only a stable Iraq will allow him to prudently fulfill the withdrawal timetable he has promised. The failure to acknowledge a bad reality back in 2003 should not lead us to make the opposite mistake five years later.

Mr. Fukuyama is professor of international political economy at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and author of "America at the Crossroads: Democracy, Power, and the Neoconservative Legacy" (Yale, 2007).


(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121876047023242841.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries)

[Feng]

One of the original ONs (Original Neocons) endorses Barack Obama. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing...

Iraq May Be Stable,
But the War Was a Mistake

By FRANCIS FUKUYAMA
August 15, 2008; Page A13

Sometime in May 2003, shortly after U.S. forces had taken Baghdad and President Bush landed on an aircraft carrier under the banner "Mission Accomplished," an old friend remarked that he thought the war was going pretty well so far. I shook my head and said I thought we were in for trouble.
I bet him that day that Iraq would be a mess in five years' time, a mess being defined as "you'll know it when you see it." I mentioned this bet to Bret Stephens three years later. He'd reviewed my book, "America at the Crossroads" in this newspaper, accusing me, among other things, of turning against the war only when public opinion had shifted. Mr. Stephens wanted to take the wager himself. And as he wrote in his column earlier this month, I conceded that he'd won by the narrow terms of the wager.
Iraq was a mess by any definition from the fall of 2003 to the beginning of this year. It is entirely possible that it will return to being a mess in the coming months and years. But I paid $100 to Mr. Stephens because a tremendous amount of progress has been made stabilizing Iraq as a result of President Bush's surge -- which has allowed Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to establish control over Baghdad and much of southern Iraq.
Though Iraq remains a very troubled country, virtually all of the trend lines -- Iraqi and U.S. casualties, government provision of basic services, and the ability of Iraqi forces to provide order -- have been moving in a positive direction for the past year.
What I absolutely did not concede, however, was the fact that this change meant that the war itself was worth it. By invading Iraq in the manner it did, the U.S. exacerbated all of the threats it faced prior to 2003. Recruitment into terrorist cells shot up all over the world. North Korea and Iran accelerated their development of nuclear weapons.
Indeed, Iran has emerged as the dominant regional power in the Persian Gulf once the U.S. removed its major rival from the scene and put its Shiite clients into power in Baghdad. While everyone is better off without Saddam Hussein around, the cost was hugely disproportionate. If you don't believe this, ask yourself whether Congress would ever have voted to authorize the war in 2002 if it knew there was no WMD, or that there would be trillion-dollar budget outlays, or that there would be 30,000 dead and wounded after five years of bitter struggle.
There are deeper, intangible costs. The Bush administration this week rebuked Russia for its disproportionate military intervention in Georgia; many rightly suspect Moscow's real goal is regime change of the pro-Western, democratic government in Tbilisi. But who set the most recent precedent for a big power intervening to change a regime it didn't like, without the sanction of the U.N. Security Council or any other legitimating international body?
Of course, there is no moral equivalence between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and Mikheil Saakashvili's Georgia. But the U.S. is scarcely in a position today to rally opposition to Russia on the basis of international law and norms constraining the strong from using force against the weak.
Republican presidential candidate John McCain says he was right in supporting the surge and that Democrat Barack Obama was wrong in opposing it. On this tactical issue I grant that Sen. McCain was right. But Sen. Obama was right on the much more important strategic question of whether the war itself was a prudent policy, and here Mr. McCain remains as wrong as ever.
Mr. Obama does not share McCain's instinctive reliance on hard power as the primary instrument for dealing with messy questions of terrorism and proliferation in the broader Middle East. This is one reason I support him for president.
Mr. Obama and other long-time opponents of the Iraq war are strongly disinclined to admit anything is going well in Iraq. Psychologically and politically, this is understandable: The smallest concession induces supporters of the war to argue that they were right all along, as Mr. Stephens did.
But Mr. Obama should fervently hope that Iraq is not a mess if and when he takes office, since only a stable Iraq will allow him to prudently fulfill the withdrawal timetable he has promised. The failure to acknowledge a bad reality back in 2003 should not lead us to make the opposite mistake five years later.

Mr. Fukuyama is professor of international political economy at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and author of "America at the Crossroads: Democracy, Power, and the Neoconservative Legacy" (Yale, 2007).


(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121876047023242841.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries)


Was that article written Francis FuckYoMama?

[freegood]

Colmes beating Hannity over an argument is like the Washington Generals winning against the Globetrotters....
saDewF41rJI

[Rover]

One of the original ONs (Original Neocons) endorses Barack Obama. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing...He isn't very neocon in that piece, maybe he's been reforming his views. However, the far-left better start being critical that Obama has a member of the PNAC endorsing him. New World Order here we come.

In other news Howard Dean has finally said what everyone believes. Finally, all the fake pretenses can be dropped. The GOP can be the white party and the Democrats can be the Godless babykillers.
“Our party has been a no-majority party for a long time. The fact is that the Democratic Party is made up of lots of different people,” Dean said.
“If you look at folks of color, even women, they’re more successful in the Democratic Party than they are in the white — excuse me — in the Republican Party.”
Dean laughed as he stumbled over the correction. The interview was posted on the news video Web site Breitbart.tv and credited to an NPR segment Friday.
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/08/16/republicans-chide-dean-for-white-party-remark/
Nevermind his assertation that the Democrat party has been better for minorities. Better at keeping them oppressed maybe.

[wlack]

As a Brit - please don't elect Obama - he'd be a disaster for you and the wider world. Putin and China would have him for breakfast - at least McCain has proven courage - physical, psychological and political courage. Do you really want the most leftwing candidate to win since FDR?

[Grieves]

Do you really want the most leftwing candidate to win since FDR?http://obamacorn.com/img/yes_we_can_3.png

[Lone Wolf]

http://obamacorn.com/img/yes_we_can_3.png

I would put that sign in my front yard

[heelsguy]

I like some of Obama's ideas, but I decided to vote for McCain the day Obama said English should not be made the official language of the United States. that's some bullshit there folks.

[Debo]

I just feel like Obama is a better candidate.. i have absolutely no facts, or anything at all to back my decision... its just a feeling i guess. maybe i like that he has hair.


You must be devastated that Edwards isn't in the race anymore. That guy has some good looking hair on his head.

[Mustard]

http://obamacorn.com/img/yes_we_can_3.png
This is lacking something... penash (sp?) or something.

Maybe a picture of bigfoot and some aliens would spice it up?

[Pollo]

anyone manage to watch the Obama/McCain debate tonight? anything really important to note? it seems they really focused on abortion and marriage from articles I read, but correct me if I'm wrong if more was discussed.

[Grenader23]

http://stupidevilbastard.com/index/seb/comments/video_of_john_mccain_arguing_america_is_a_christia n_nation/

[Feng]

As a Brit - please don't elect Obama - he'd be a disaster for you and the wider world. Putin and China would have him for breakfast - at least McCain has proven courage - physical, psychological and political courage. Do you really want the most leftwing candidate to win since FDR?

You don't think Obama can look in to Putin's eyes and see his soul?

[iKnowJohnStamos]

FDR, he sure was a scrub. If conservatives want to give credit to Reagan for the prosperity Clinton "inherited" then surely FDR should be given credit for the hyper-prosperity after WWII. I wouldn't call Obama FDR or anything but after Bush how much worse can we do internationally really?

In other news, Obama will most likely pick his VP tomorrow. I love Biden and everything but I wish he would go more central to balance it out.

[kareyn01]

I like some of Obama's ideas, but I decided to vote for McCain the day Obama said English should not be made the official language of the United States. that's some bullshit there folks.

Why should it be? The United States has never had an official language, so why start now? Even with the huge influx of Spanish-speaking immigrants there are, what, five Spanish-language TV stations?

And if that is the issue that made you decide for one candidate over the other (either way), your priorities are seriously fucked up.

[Claydon]

Why should it be? The United States has never had an official language, so why start now? Even with the huge influx of Spanish-speaking immigrants there are, what, five Spanish-language TV stations?



Hmmm, well let us look at some facts (I know that is difficult for you).....the constitution is written in english, the courts are conducted in english, the vast majority of government documents are in english. Now, I am going to make a real big leap of faith here and say........................English is the language of the US.

[Mustard]

http://static.crooksandliars.com/2008/08/soto_47.jpg

[kareyn01]

Hmmm, well let us look at some facts (I know that is difficult for you).....the constitution is written in english, the courts are conducted in english, the vast majority of government documents are in english. Now, I am going to make a real big leap of faith here and say........................English is the language of the US.

Where did you see me dispute any of that? Or say that I think the Constitution should be re-written in Spanish? I just think that its pointless to name an "official" language when we've managed to go 232 years without one. To me its a non-issue. Who give a fuck other than overbearing douchebags like you?

[Rover]

2008
-1776
232

And English as the official language will help with assimilation of immigrants, and cut down on government costs required to translate forms into Swahili. You cannot provide me with one good reason why a voting ballot should be translated into any language other than English.

[kareyn01]

OMG, not a typo!

And you're right, voting ballots should be in English; but if the owner of a Mexican grocery store in a Latino neighborhood wants to have the sign on his storefront in Spanish, I have no problem with that. I still don't think you need to make English the official language, and I think that its a non-issue. I understand your point, I just disagree with it.

[Emjanss]

http://static.crooksandliars.com/2008/08/soto_47.jpg
I agree. I'm also leaning towards not voting for a candidate endorsed by President Carter.

[Morfin]

Obama and McCain have drawn out the revelation of their VP choices to the point where I don't care any more. They spent so much time sending up trial balloon names to see who generated excitement and, in my mind, nobody stood out.

Just name them already.

[kareyn01]

You only have to wait until Saturday for Obama and next Friday for McCain. The anticipation is almost unbearable! Oooh, Olympic rowing prelims are on, nevermind...

[redsox39]

FDR, he sure was a scrub. If conservatives want to give credit to Reagan for the prosperity Clinton "inherited" then surely FDR should be given credit for the hyper-prosperity after WWII. I wouldn't call Obama FDR or anything but after Bush how much worse can we do internationally really?

In other news, Obama will most likely pick his VP tomorrow. I love Biden and everything but I wish he would go more central to balance it out.

I just heard an old "Biden for President" clip. Biden say "this is not a job where you can just go in and learn, it takes years of experience to learn about bugets, foreign and domestic policy, trade agreement and being the commander-in-chief."

and now he is going to jump on the ship of the guy with the least amount of experience since...well, anyone really.

I agree. I'm also leaning towards not voting for a candidate endorsed by President Carter.


Damn if you didn't take the words right out of my mouth!

Where did you see me dispute any of that? Or say that I think the Constitution should be re-written in Spanish? I just think that its pointless to name an "official" language when we've managed to go 232 years without one. To me its a non-issue. Who give a fuck other than overbearing douchebags like you?

agreed. Other Non-issues include: Gay Marriage, Flag burning, abortion.

Why would we base a president on any of these things?

I hate when parties try to act like these are the DIRE stances we need to address.

I think I would be in favor of English being our language, but I don't give a shit too much. then again, immigrants used to assimilate to our society and give half an effort to learn the language and melt in to our pot. Not som much today...

OMG, not a typo!

And you're right, voting ballots should be in English; but if the owner of a Mexican grocery store in a Latino neighborhood wants to have the sign on his storefront in Spanish, I have no problem with that. I still don't think you need to make English the official language, and I think that its a non-issue. I understand your point, I just disagree with it.


Well, I don't think making an official language means banning all forms and signage of another language. I don't think the gestapo will go and kick in that guys door for having a Spanish sign up.

[Morfin]

I see 4, will resox39 get five in a row? Noooo.

[redsox39]

Damn, you spoiled my run Like the giants to the Patriots...

[T. Money]

I agree with kareyn01 (http://forum.gorillamask.net/member.php?u=99), English is already the language of the USA. Making it "official" is a non-issue in my mind. As for the different government cost to translate various documents into various languages, all governments do that. That won't change. I am not talking about the Constitution, but simply visas/travel documents/anything that foreigners might need to fill out.

[Claydon]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26308429/

Apparently change is not enough?!

So according to this poll mccain has a 5 point lead, you can take that for what it is worth. I am sure obama will bump up when the dem convention takes place.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Isn't Obama supposed to announce his VP choice on Thursday or Friday?

[kareyn01]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26308429/

Apparently change is not enough?!

So according to this poll mccain has a 5 point lead, you can take that for what it is worth. I am sure obama will bump up when the dem convention takes place.


First, to Crash, Obama has already announced that he will hold a rally to introduce his VP on Saturday in Springfield. Most of the talk about Obama announcing on Friday was simply because there was nothing on his schedule for that day.

Now, with regard to the poll:

1) Its a Zogby poll, which means it has just about zero validity
2) Zogby has had McCain up in their poll since July
3) I think that the race is indeed tightening nationally, due to a combination of McCain's ads and the simple fact that this is a lull right before the true election season starts up after the conventions.
4) If you look at the actual national numbers tied to electoral votes, its still not close; Obama has a health lead with or without toss-up states, going off of poll averages.

[Claydon]

First, to Crash, Obama has already announced that he will hold a rally to introduce his VP on Saturday in Springfield. Most of the talk about Obama announcing on Friday was simply because there was nothing on his schedule for that day.

Now, with regard to the poll:

1) Its a Zogby poll, which means it has just about zero validity
2) Zogby has had McCain up in their poll since July
3) I think that the race is indeed tightening nationally, due to a combination of McCain's ads and the simple fact that this is a lull right before the true election season starts up after the conventions.
4) If you look at the actual national numbers tied to electoral votes, its still not close; Obama has a health lead with or without toss-up states, going off of poll averages.

actually obama is ahead within the margin of error. obama will most likely win, but it is not going to be the mandate that you and the rest of the disciples claim it will be. It amazes to me to no end how much obama is "rethinking" his positions on iraq, oil drilling and the list goes on.

[kareyn01]

http://www.pollster.com/

That's a composite of all the national polls out there. Right now its Obama 45.4 to McCain 44 without third parties, and 42.4 to 42.1 with third parties (as you mentioned).

However, in electoral terms (the only terms that really count), Obama is up 264 to 191 when you include leaning states, and 214 to 112 without leaning states. That seems like a fairly substantial lead, with or without your bullshit about "mandates" and "disciples".

[redsox39]

http://www.pollster.com/

That's a composite of all the national polls out there. Right now its Obama 45.4 to McCain 44 without third parties, and 42.4 to 42.1 with third parties (as you mentioned).

However, in electoral terms (the only terms that really count), Obama is up 264 to 191 when you include leaning states, and 214 to 112 without leaning states. That seems like a fairly substantial lead, with or without your bullshit about "mandates" and "disciples".


Its always amazes me how excited a certain breed people can get for the new hot thing. Pokemon, Tickle me Elmo, Obama...

[Rover]

OMG, not a typo!

And you're right, voting ballots should be in English; but if the owner of a Mexican grocery store in a Latino neighborhood wants to have the sign on his storefront in Spanish, I have no problem with that. I still don't think you need to make English the official language, and I think that its a non-issue. I understand your point, I just disagree with it.English as the official language would not prevent Jose from labeling his store in Spanish. It would prevent every government document from being printed in 42 languages. In fact, you'd probably have to repeal 3 amendments to be able to prevent a storeowner from labeling his store in whatever he wanted.

http://www.pollster.com/

That's a composite of all the national polls out there. Right now its Obama 45.4 to McCain 44 without third parties, and 42.4 to 42.1 with third parties (as you mentioned).

However, in electoral terms (the only terms that really count), Obama is up 264 to 191 when you include leaning states, and 214 to 112 without leaning states. That seems like a fairly substantial lead, with or without your bullshit about "mandates" and "disciples".Wasn't John Kerry up with about 320+ electoral votes at the same point last time?

[kareyn01]

Kerry did in fact have a similar (though somewhat smaller) lead in both the polls and in their relation to the electoral college numbers. Obama could very well lose that lead just as Kerry did. I was simply pointing out to Claydon that, despite the narrow lead in the polls (or statistical dead heat when you include margin of error), Obama does in fact have a substantial electoral lead at this point in time.

Granted, no poll has that much significance two and a half months before the election, but they do give a general jumping-off point for where things will start once the conventions open in a week. Plus, what the hell else is there to talk about?

[Kilgore]

Lieberman is a whore looking for anyone to show him love.

[Pollo]

Isn't Obama supposed to announce his VP choice on Thursday or Friday?

there were rumblings he would announce his pick this weekend prior to the Democratic convention, but from what I heard on CNN on Monday, it seems he's already made his choice but has yet to let that person know (supposedly).

[Rover]

Plus, what the hell else is there to talk about?Vanity Fair found Obama's brother living on $12/year in Kenya.
The Italian edition of Vanity Fair said that it had found George Hussein Onyango Obama living in a hut in a ramshackle town of Huruma on the outskirts of Nairobi.
Mr Obama, 26, the youngest of the presidential candidate's half-brothers, spoke for the first time about his life, which could not be more different than that of the Democratic contender.
"No-one knows who I am," he told the magazine, before claiming: "I live here on less than a dollar a month."
According to Italy's Vanity Fair his two metre by three metre shack is decorated with football posters of the Italian football giants AC Milan and Inter, as well as a calendar showing exotic beaches of the world.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/barackobama/2590614/Barack-Obamas-lost-brother-found-in-Kenya.html
Help a brother out?

[Mustard]

I agree. I'm also leaning towards not voting for a candidate endorsed by President Carter.
LOL you think Carter is worse than Dubya?

Remind me again which quagmire Carter got us into that resulted in the taxpayers being forced to spend hundreds of billions of dollars (soon to be a trillion or more), the quagmire that has so thoroughly tarnished the US's once proud name in the world abroad, the quagmire that has weakened the US's great military and good standing, and the quagmire that has cost us over 4000 servicemen?

Carter, for all of his faults and inaction, never EVER fucked up so monumentally like shrub has. To say Carter is the worst is just flat wrong. To insist on that path would remove all credibility.

[Rover]

Well, if Carter didn't fuck up the Middle East so bad in the first place. Support the Shah or let the radical, religious crazies take over? Decisions, decisions.

We know how the decision Carter made worked out. I wonder what would have happened if he'd gone the other way?

[Grieves]

Well, if Carter didn't fuck up the Middle East so bad in the first place.Carter wasn't president in '53.

[Mustard]

Well, if Carter didn't fuck up the Middle East so bad in the first place. Support the Shah or let the radical, religious crazies take over? Decisions, decisions.

We know how the decision Carter made worked out. I wonder what would have happened if he'd gone the other way?
Yeah, because it was Carter that made all of the middle east nations into despotic rulers with no care for human rights... what a fucking joke.

jesus fucking christ, you bush apologists will never cease to amaze me just how far you're willing to go to try to make it somebody else's fault for President Shit-for-brain's fuckups.

Why can't the "party of personal responsibility" ever take responsibilty for its own fuckups? It always has to be somebody elses fault.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

LOL you think Carter is worse than Dubya?

Remind me again which quagmire Carter got us into that resulted in the taxpayers being forced to spend hundreds of billions of dollars (soon to be a trillion or more), the quagmire that has so thoroughly tarnished the US's once proud name in the world abroad, the quagmire that has weakened the US's great military and good standing, and the quagmire that has cost us over 4000 servicemen?

Carter, for all of his faults and inaction, never EVER fucked up so monumentally like shrub has. To say Carter is the worst is just flat wrong. To insist on that path would remove all credibility.

You weren't alive during that period, so you have NO credibility regarding the subject. As with everything else you emote, you are forced to read the account from someone else.

It would be better served for those that did, if you simply STFU!

[Mustard]

You weren't alive during that period, so you have NO credibility regarding the subject. As with everything else you emote, you are forced to read the account from someone else.

It would be better served for those that did, if you simply STFU!
So I suppose the histoy books I've read have no credibility either, and their objectivity from which I've deduced my opinions are all just moot?

Wait... this SoundQcar isn't it, just with a different name. Welcome to my ignore list, again. Every GMFer here would be smart to quickly follow suit.

[Pollo]

it seems Obama is leaning toward Senator Joe Biden (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_el_pr/veepstakes) as his VP choice, despite him still talking to Govs. Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas and Tim Kaine of Virginia, and Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana.

it says in the article Obama plans to make his decision this Saturday.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Welcome to my ignore list, again.

I consider it a compliment, coming from you. You're simply another jackass that can dish it, but not take it.

Go raid the Fridge, you'll feel better.

[Claydon]

Joe Biden is such a horse's ass, that would be just an awful choice for obama to make. If obama wants virginia he will tap their governor.

[TheImpossibleMan]

I REALLY hope it's Wesley Clark, I dig that dude.

LOL at case sensitive. LOL #2 at people who seriously think Carter is the worst president ever. He was shit, but Jesus you guys can't seriously think he was the worst president ever, can you?

[TheImpossibleMan]

And saying that Carter is somehow responsible for "messing up" the middle east is insane, the only reason Egypt and Israel aren't regularly going to war is because of the peace treaty Carter got the two nations to sign; my god, that's one of the most significant diplomatic accomplishments of the last century.

[Claydon]

And saying that Carter is somehow responsible for "messing up" the middle east is insane, the only reason Egypt and Israel aren't regularly going to war is because of the peace treaty Carter got the two nations to sign; my god, that's one of the most significant diplomatic accomplishments of the last century.

Yah, and his stellar performance with the take over of the US embassy was awe inspiring. His limp wristed response to the invasion by the soviets in afghanistan brings a patriotic tear to my eye. I will give him credit for one thing and one thing only......... Alaskan Pipeline.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Yah, and his stellar performance with the take over of the US embassy was awe inspiring. His limp wristed response to the invasion by the soviets in afghanistan brings a patriotic tear to my eye. I will give him credit for one thing and one thing only......... Alaskan Pipeline.
You do realize he is the one who negotiated for the release of the hostages? Like, they got released because of them?

[Claydon]

You do realize he is the one who negotiated for the release of the hostages? Like, they got released because of them?

Wow, he got them released after 444 days.... awe inspiring.

He green lighted an extremely dangerous multi stage military rescue op that when terribly wrong due to its over complexity.

So glad he could talk to them for a year and a half.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Wow, he got them released after 444 days.... awe inspiring.

He green lighted an extremely dangerous multi stage military rescue op that when terribly wrong due to its over complexity.

So glad he could talk to them for a year and a half.
I really gotta scratch my head on your response, you seem to think saving American lives doesn't count if it takes a long time. Like I said, he was an awful President, but arguing he's the worst ever is insane.

[Claydon]

I really gotta scratch my head on your response, you seem to think saving American lives doesn't count if it takes a long time. Like I said, he was an awful President, but arguing he's the worst ever is insane.

Actually I can argue this, hell even the dems don't hold him up as a model president. Under his watch the soviets grew more powerful and bold, the economy which was already shaky following vietnam went into the friggin toliet, and as for that peace treaty, that had been in the works since the egyptians last got their asses whipped in the early 70s.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Wait wait wait....Reagan get's 100% credit for 'bringing about the fall of the Soviet Union', even though THAT had been in the works since the 40's, but Carter get's zero credit for actively doing what no president had done before. Right.

[BIG PIZZLE]

John McCain, son of an admiral who was the son of an admiral who was the son of someone reaaallllyyy old. Got in the air force, got shot down, captured. Could have gone home, decided not to. Got tortured. Strong, honorable, but stupid. Brack Obama, bastard child from Hawaii. Figured out how to GTFO. Graduated from Columbia, organized churches in Chicago. Went went to Harvard, Harvard Law Review editor, writes his ticket. Something from nothing, the american dream.

[Oracle989]

McCain, if for no other reason than that Obama never says anything substantial.

[Hanover Fist]

Investors Business Daily did an 11 part raping of Obama. They have also posted editorials critical of McCain, but they really dropped the bomb on Barry.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/series8.aspx
The Audacity of Socialism


It is also no small coincidence that the Corsi book critical of Obama has been #1 on the NYT bestseller list for weeks now at the same time Obamas polling numbers have started to drop significantly.
It seems that the more people know about Obama the less they like. It doesn't help that virtually every media outlet says Obama made an abyssmal showing at the recent "debate" with McCain.
Perhaps there is still time for the Dems to nominate Hillary at the convention, not that it will make a difference, she will lose too.
As much as I despise McCain and still refuse to vote for him, I fully expect him to be president for the next 4 years. Hopefully he doesn't pick some douche like Lieberman to be his VP.

[Claydon]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c145/idexx/toon081908.gif

[iKnowJohnStamos]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c145/idexx/toon081908.gif

Yeah, I never really get it when Obama avoids public appearances...Common sense would suggest that he would dominate McCain in a debate, town hall, forum discussion. But out of the 20 McCain suggested he didn't go to any which makes him look pretty bad. I can understand why he wouldn't want to go on the O'Reilly Factor just because Bill would obviously be out to get him but still Obama should be able to handle Bill no problem (I watch the factor for comedy's sake the same way I would the Daily Show). So that kind of stuff looks negative to people who wouldn't vote for him anyway.

It seems Obama is dangerously close to Wind Surfing his way out of this thing. We'll see how the conventions go i guess.

[Pollo]

Obama apparently has decided who he wants (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080821/ap_on_el_pr/veepstakes), without no clues of course:

EMPORIA, Va - Barack Obama says he's decided on a running mate, but he won't say who. "I've made the selection, that's all you're gonna get," Obama said told reporters while campaigning in Virginia Thursday. Obama didn't say whether he's informed his pick yet.

http://us.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=CS7y_kWTVvpeXrHeSK3LDwHpRAVwdkit3OIABVRt&T=13s7f1i5s%2fX%3d1219353826%2fE%3d8903521%2fR%3dn ews%2fK%3d5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3dH%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d63 4717618%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3dC7519345&U=13fcvm5sp%2fN%3dKUikCUWTWVE-%2fC%3d674272.12804963.13083852.1442997%2fD%3dLREC %2fB%3d5406809%2fV%3d1
Obama is planning to announce his choice in a text message to supporters sometime before Saturday afternoon, when he's scheduled to appear with his pick in Illinois.

Asked by an Associated Press reporter when the text would be sent, Obama just grinned and said, "Wouldn't you like to know?"

[redsox39]

Yeah, I never really get it when Obama avoids public appearances...Common sense would suggest that he would dominate McCain in a debate, town hall, forum discussion. But out of the 20 McCain suggested he didn't go to any which makes him look pretty bad. I can understand why he wouldn't want to go on the O'Reilly Factor just because Bill would obviously be out to get him but still Obama should be able to handle Bill no problem (I watch the factor for comedy's sake the same way I would the Daily Show). So that kind of stuff looks negative to people who wouldn't vote for him anyway.

It seems Obama is dangerously close to Wind Surfing his way out of this thing. We'll see how the conventions go i guess.


Because Obama is a strong reader and speech giver. He needs to be told what to say by his handlers. He is terrible in on the spot moments, and he needs to avoid them at all costs.

Every debate he has been in, he looks terrible because he only has 5 answers he is allowed to give and so he just avoids the questions, says which ever talking point of his 5 he practiced sounds the best, and goes with it.

[redsox39]

LOL you think Carter is worse than Dubya?

Remind me again which quagmire Carter got us into that resulted in the taxpayers being forced to spend hundreds of billions of dollars (soon to be a trillion or more), the quagmire that has so thoroughly tarnished the US's once proud name in the world abroad, the quagmire that has weakened the US's great military and good standing, and the quagmire that has cost us over 4000 servicemen?

Carter, for all of his faults and inaction, never EVER fucked up so monumentally like shrub has. To say Carter is the worst is just flat wrong. To insist on that path would remove all credibility.


Gee I guess JFK is bad for getting us into the quagmire of Vietnam and costing us 50,000 troops and ruining our good name too. That makes him at least 10 times worse than Bush. Go find another talking point you fag.

And all Carter did was destroy the American Economy and make 2 income homes the norm with inflation. No Biggie.

[redsox39]

Yeah, because it was Carter that made all of the middle east nations into despotic rulers with no care for human rights... what a fucking joke.

jesus fucking christ, you bush apologists will never cease to amaze me just how far you're willing to go to try to make it somebody else's fault for President Shit-for-brain's fuckups.

Why can't the "party of personal responsibility" ever take responsibilty for its own fuckups? It always has to be somebody elses fault.


Thank you Sink. Carter did a great job in the Middle East. History means nothing, and we should turn a blind eye to the middle east.

[redsox39]

So I suppose the histoy books I've read have no credibility either, and their objectivity from which I've deduced my opinions are all just moot?

Wait... this SoundQcar isn't it, just with a different name. Welcome to my ignore list, again. Every GMFer here would be smart to quickly follow suit.


Wow. A Censorship Promoting Liberal. Free speech only applies to people who think just like his robot ass.

[redsox39]

I REALLY hope it's Wesley Clark, I dig that dude.

LOL at case sensitive. LOL #2 at people who seriously think Carter is the worst president ever. He was shit, but Jesus you guys can't seriously think he was the worst president ever, can you?


Worst Since 1930 for sure.
But we had some real fuck-ups before that...Especially after the Civil war...

[Grieves]

Both democrats and conservatives should be able to agree that Bush is one of the worst presidents, if not arguably, the worst president of all time. Neocons love him because Sean Hannity says they should.

Deal with it.

[redsox39]

Wait wait wait....Reagan get's 100% credit for 'bringing about the fall of the Soviet Union', even though THAT had been in the works since the 40's, but Carter get's zero credit for actively doing what no president had done before. Right.

Jeez, he only killed 8 troops invading a soverign nation, give him a break man! Then he tucked his vagina back in and looked like a fool.

[redsox39]

Wait wait wait....Reagan get's 100% credit for 'bringing about the fall of the Soviet Union', even though THAT had been in the works since the 40's, but Carter get's zero credit for actively doing what no president had done before. Right.

One more thing...Did you just try to do a history lesson?

So the you want to give Carter and Pals a pat on the back for the Cold War victory...but you don't think Carter or Clinton have anything to do with fuck up that is the Middle East?

[BIG PIZZLE]

Yeah, I never really get it when Obama avoids public appearances...Common sense would suggest that he would dominate McCain in a debate, town hall, forum discussion. But out of the 20 McCain suggested he didn't go to any which makes him look pretty bad. I can understand why he wouldn't want to go on the O'Reilly Factor just because Bill would obviously be out to get him but still Obama should be able to handle Bill no problem (I watch the factor for comedy's sake the same way I would the Daily Show). So that kind of stuff looks negative to people who wouldn't vote for him anyway.

It seems Obama is dangerously close to Wind Surfing his way out of this thing. We'll see how the conventions go i guess.

He doesnt want to do it because Obama is a rock star right now he draws huge crowds. McCain doesnt have the same draw, he doesnt want to give McCain the publicity.

[TheImpossibleMan]

God damn some of you Republicans are cocksuckers. Fuck me, redsox39 and casesensitive are the fucking definition of forum trolls.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

God damn some of you Republicans are cocksuckers. Fuck me, redsox39 and casesensitive are the fucking definition of forum trolls.

And Mr. Crash....you are the walking definition of a brainless, liberal piece of shit. When I find the likes of you on my land, I tend to step on you and squash you like the annoying little zit you are.

You egotistical fuck. You wanna save the world you think needs saving??? You go right ahead. Just do it on your own time and STFU about it. I don't care to hear it.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

He doesnt want to do it because Obama is a rock star right now he draws huge crowds. McCain doesnt have the same draw, he doesnt want to give McCain the publicity.

No, he simply can't handle an off-the-cuff debate without exposing him for what he is.....a charleton.

He's a pleasant looking/sounding guy with precious little background to get picked apart in a typical campaign, the proper skin color so when things turn nasty....he can yank out the RC, and the Democratic Party is exploiting him to the hilt.

All flash, no substance, and most of you dipshits are lapping up every single bit of it like The Sinkster at an all-night buffet.

Don't misconstrue this as flag-waving support for John McCain. I'm simply waiting for Barack Hussein Obama to say something meaningful, and to expound on it....waiting for a day I'm afraid will never come.

[redsox39]

He doesnt want to do it because Obama is a rock star right now he draws huge crowds. McCain doesnt have the same draw, he doesnt want to give McCain the publicity.


Good Spin, did you take that with your Kool-aid this morning?

[redsox39]

God damn some of you Republicans are cocksuckers. Fuck me, redsox39 and casesensitive are the fucking definition of forum trolls.

So you and the Lib's spout off bullshit like it is burning your throat, and that is fine. We try to share our point of view, and we are trolls.

One again, Free Speech is apparently only for people who agree with you. And think like you. And do what you are told. Just like the Obama Nation Robots.

[redsox39]

Somethign we can all agree on. Jimmy Carter was the Worst president to ever try to beat down a killer rabbit with an oar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter_rabbit_incident

[Smokestack]

No, he simply can't handle an off-the-cuff debate without exposing him for what he is.....a charleton.

He's a pleasant looking/sounding guy with precious little background to get picked apart in a typical campaign, the proper skin color so when things turn nasty....he can yank out the RC, and the Democratic Party is exploiting him to the hilt.

He doesn't do it because town halls to McCain are like Boston Garden to the Red Sox, or so the press would have us believe it. Since McCain signed on with Rove's right hand man that McCain has dropped the "off the cuff" routine and is much more on message. I think Obama undersells himself in this regard and could handle this format but being evasive about it certainly doesn't help him.

All flash, no substance, and most of you dipshits are lapping up every single bit of it like The Sinkster at an all-night buffet.

Don't misconstrue this as flag-waving support for John McCain. I'm simply waiting for Barack Hussein Obama to say something meaningful, and to expound on it....waiting for a day I'm afraid will never come.

This is an overused and hyperbolic meme. Obama has said plenty of substantive things, beginning with McCain's supposed bread-and-butter foreign policy, such as opposing the Iraq War for compelling reasons as well as reinserting Afghanistan into the conversation. If you actually look at their policy proposals, McCain comes through with thinner and lamely black-and-white ideas ("winning" in Iraq?) Saying he hasn't said anything meaningful is its own version of saying something meaningless. Move onto something real.

[redsox39]

Obama's Stand: Change

If I shit on the sidewalk from now on, that is change too.
Change is easy, but good change? let's hear what you got.

[Smokestack]

Obama's Stand: Change

If I shit on the sidewalk from now on, that is change too.
Change is easy, but good change? let's hear what you got.

Now, there's a facile argument. You could argue in the same vein that McCain' stand is "tested." If I took an exam and got an F, wouldn't I be tested too? Tested and experience can be good qualities, but if they refer to experience in bad decision making or if the candidate runs away from the maverick-y-ness of his past, then where's the value in the words "tested" and "experience"?

So, "good change"? How about a less bellicose foreign policy, getting more people health insurance, more investment in alternative energies, not appointing rubber stamp justices like Alito and Roberts, removing party affiliation from the Justice Dept. hiring process, a more progressive tax code, etc. Now, you can certainly disagree as to whether these changes are good or not, but he's obviously offering a change from the policies of the current administration. To call it generic, unmeaningful change is a meaningless statement in its own right.

[Rover]

Investors Business Daily did an 11 part raping of Obama. They have also posted editorials critical of McCain, but they really dropped the bomb on Barry.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/series8.aspx
When you put his entire background together, there's an awful lot of RED in it.
He doesn't do it because town halls to McCain are like Boston Garden to the Red Sox, or so the press would have us believe it. Since McCain signed on with Rove's right hand man that McCain has dropped the "off the cuff" routine and is much more on message. I think Obama undersells himself in this regard and could handle this format but being evasive about it certainly doesn't help him.I've got to disagree with that. Obama off the cuff is a trainwreck. As long as he's scripted they can hide his actual beliefs. Otherwise he ends up saying these gems.


Obama, Fan of Chinese Ports, Trains, and Airports

Obama, yesterday (http://hotair.com/archives/2008/08/22/obama-know-where-its-really-great-to-do-business/): "Everybody's watching what's going on in Beijing right now with the Olympics , Think about the amount of money that China has spent on infrastructure. Their ports, their train systems, their airports are vastly the superior to us now, which means if you are a corporation deciding where to do business, you're starting to think, 'Beijing looks like a pretty good option.'"

Ed and Hugh object, with the latter noting Obama "ignores how those structures were assembled, the source and conditions of the labor, the lack of pollution controls in Beijing and throughout China, the many complaints that Chinese infrastructure outside the Olympics zone remains shoddy, the recent record of Chinese manufacturing scandals, including the heparin fiasco which killed many Americans, and of course the catastrophe brought about by Chinese building standards in the region rocked by the recent earthquake."
But beyond that, let's look at Obama's examples of Chinese excellence...
(continued)
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=M2UzMjJkMWZiODBmYTRlZDY2NDc0ZWJhMmY1NTM5NWU=
Didn't Democrats slam the Chinese for all the lead in their toys. And didn't China have like a million people stranded at the train stations because their power went out for a week. Aren't people living in rural China illiterate and starving? China better indeed.

[redsox39]

Now, there's a facile argument. You could argue in the same vein that McCain' stand is "tested." If I took an exam and got an F, wouldn't I be tested too? Tested and experience can be good qualities, but if they refer to experience in bad decision making or if the candidate runs away from the maverick-y-ness of his past, then where's the value in the words "tested" and "experience"?

So, "good change"? How about a less bellicose foreign policy, getting more people health insurance, more investment in alternative energies, not appointing rubber stamp justices like Alito and Roberts, removing party affiliation from the Justice Dept. hiring process, a more progressive tax code, etc. Now, you can certainly disagree as to whether these changes are good or not, but he's obviously offering a change from the policies of the current administration. To call it generic, unmeaningful change is a meaningless statement in its own right.

Change is in the future. He is standing on something that does not yet exist. McCain is asking you to judge his entire life which has been spent in the Military and in Government. and he DIDN'T get an F. (He also spent some time at a spa or something in Hanoi I think...)

Either way, the reason I love to argue this crap is no one backs down and we all think less of each other in the morning. Just like my sex life.

[Smokestack]

Change is in the future. He is standing on something that does not yet exist. McCain is asking you to judge his entire life which has been spent in the Military and in Government. and he DIDN'T get an F. (He also spent some time at a spa or something in Hanoi I think...)

Either way, the reason I love to argue this crap is no one backs down and we all think less of each other in the morning. Just like my sex life.

Right, but isn't this election about what doesn't yet exist and not about what already does? And while you don't think he got an F, there are plenty of us who think that he did (although I would say more like a career B veering sharply to an F in recent years).

At any rate, you bring up the POW thing, as McCain has as an excuse recently. No doubt that he suffered through that is a testimony to his character. That said, I'm not sure that having someone who was imprisoned and tortured rise to our highest office is necessarily a good thing. This isn't even a question of whether or not it serves as a qualifier. It's a commendable life experience but also a life experience that can carry unfortunately negative connotations. It appears he's done a remarkable job overcoming these potential negatives but, frankly, he still frightens me. And as a New Yorker, I see POW: McCain quickly becoming 9/11: Giuliani, which is too bad.

[redsox39]

Right, but isn't this election about what doesn't yet exist and not about what already does? And while you don't think he got an F, there are plenty of us who think that he did (although I would say more like a career B veering sharply to an F in recent years).

At any rate, you bring up the POW thing, as McCain has as an excuse recently. No doubt that he suffered through that is a testimony to his character. That said, I'm not sure that having someone who was imprisoned and tortured rise to our highest office is necessarily a good thing. This isn't even a question of whether or not it serves as a qualifier. It's a commendable life experience but also a life experience that can carry unfortunately negative connotations. It appears he's done a remarkable job overcoming these potential negatives but, frankly, he still frightens me. And as a New Yorker, I see POW: McCain quickly becoming 9/11: Giuliani, which is too bad.

I know. Giuliani lead you guys down a dark path with 9/11, he did terrible job with crime too, hell didn't he throw away the second amendment for you liberals as well?

All the while, he was having even more Sex than Bill Clinton...I am surprised New Yorkers have built that guy a statue yet.

[FarEastFornicator]

Thought this was kinda petty/unoriginal on Obama's part. Let the media expose this shit.




Barack in Chester, Virginia: "The answer is John McCain has seven homes"
Category: News and Politics (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.viewCategory&FriendID=184040237&BlogCategoryID=17)
Earlier today at a town hall in Chester, Virginia Barack spoke about the real economic challenges facing Americans and the need for a president who has a sense of what ordinary people are going through.
Barack explained:
[John McCain's] top economic advisers said the other day that Americans should stop complaining, that they've become a nation of "whiners." That all of the economic problems that everyone is talking about is just a mental recession.

... Then yesterday, he was asked again, "What do you think about the economy?" And he said "I think the economy is fundamentally strong." Now this puzzled me. I was confused as to what he meant. But then there was another interview .... where somebody asked John McCain "How many houses do you have?" And he said "I'm not sure, I'll have to check with my staff."

... If you don't know how many houses you have, you might think that the economy is fundamentally strong. But if you're like me and you've got one house, or if you're one of the millions of people who are struggling right now to keep up with their mortgage so that they don't lose their home, you might have a different perspective.


By the way, the answer is John McCain has seven homes.

[Claydon]

Pretty because obama has nothing to show for himself. I love how it attempting to make mccain look like an elite and he (obama) a man of the people. The dumbass raked in millions last year (obama) I am sure he has a couple homes around the country.

[Smokestack]

I know. Giuliani lead you guys down a dark path with 9/11, he did terrible job with crime too, hell didn't he throw away the second amendment for you liberals as well?

All the while, he was having even more Sex than Bill Clinton...I am surprised New Yorkers have built that guy a statue yet.

I didn't say he led us down a dark path after 9/11 (although choosing to put the command center below the Trade Center after the '93 attacks rather than Brooklyn was pretty stupid). I said he overplayed 9/11 by consistently and callously using it as an excuse for his actions and a platform for his candidacy.

In terms of crime...sure, props to him. Crime dipped in other cities in the 90s too, though. I'm not going to sit here and credit Clinton's 100,000 new cops, either. It was a prosperous time and crime tends to ebb during times of prosperity. Good confluence of factors there.

I will give Rudy credit, though...Judy Nathan > Monica Lewinsky.

Pretty because obama has nothing to show for himself. I love how it attempting to make mccain look like an elite and he (obama) a man of the people. The dumbass raked in millions last year (obama) I am sure he has a couple homes around the country.

You mean petty rather than pretty? McCain and Co. started the elitist thing. This isn't about the number of homes, it's about appearing hypocritical. Your post is like the ref calling the foul on the guy who retaliates.

[Pollo]

CNN and Fox News reporting Obama has chosen Biden to be his VP.

[Hobnail_Boot]

CNN and Fox News reporting Obama has chosen Biden to be his VP.
I want my fucking TEXT MESSAGE!

[FarEastFornicator]

http://i36.tinypic.com/23u7w91.jpg

[Robert Paulson]

I want my fucking TEXT MESSAGE!


I got mine at 3:32 am EST

[Hobnail_Boot]

I got mine at 3:32 am EST
Me, too. I wonder if that was "3 AM phone call" symbolism. It's annoying to get a phone call (or text message) at 3 AM, no matter who it's from. But regardless, by the Obama campaign sending the text message out so late, it allowed the MSM to scoop them on the announcement. And it took away the "excitement" of receiving the text message at, you know, a waking hour.

[Robert Paulson]

ha never connected the time with that......I must be slipping

[Claydon]

My god, I thought obama was kind of smart, this proves otherwise. Wasn't is Biden who referred to Obama as a "clean black man".

Wow...just fucking wow.

Obama has chosen one of the biggest douchebags in DC to be his running mate...

impressive.....most impressive.

[Genius]

And also someone with a TON of experience, especially in foreign policy, which is exactly what he needed. Plus, they'll just spin that comment into "this just proves that Obama is willing to work with people that he doesn't necessarily get along with."

[Claydon]

And also someone with a TON of experience, especially in foreign policy, which is exactly what he needed. Plus, they'll just spin that comment into "this just proves that Obama is willing to work with people that he doesn't necessarily get along with."


So the democrats are emulating that which they hate the most? Ie a VP that will assist in policy ie Dich Cheney? So clearly this would suggest obama doesn not have any form of concept of the world that he has to go to Joe Biden? Wow....again I say....just fucking wow.

[Lone Wolf]

So the democrats are emulating that which they hate the most? Ie a VP that will assist in policy ie Dich Cheney? So clearly this would suggest obama doesn not have any form of concept of the world that he has to go to Joe Biden? Wow....again I say....just fucking wow.


Wow, just wow you really are a fucking moron aren't you.

Other than an Al Gore swerve this was clearly the best choice. I was actually kicking the tires on Biden earlier in the season, but this wasn't really the year for his type with Hillary and Obama creating so much excitement.

Your Cheney comment just goes to show what a fucknut you really are. There's absolutly nothing wrong with choosing a running mate that strengthens areas that you need work in. Having somebody that know the ropes while you are learning them yourself is, oh I don't know, smart.

[Hanover Fist]

I don't have any problem with Biden, although with his history he's more likely to end up saying something fairly damaging to Obamas campaign at some point. He has an enormous ego, although what Senator doesn't, he just seems to display it openly more than most.
It just doesn't really seem to help Obama all that much. An old white Senator from Delaware who has spent his entire adult life in public office? Not exactly the model for hope and change now is it?
I get his foreign policy experience but you also get his baggage, it seems like more negatives than positives. I was pretty surprised by this pick.

[Claydon]

Wow, just wow you really are a fucking moron aren't you.

Other than an Al Gore swerve this was clearly the best choice. I was actually kicking the tires on Biden earlier in the season, but this wasn't really the year for his type with Hillary and Obama creating so much excitement.

Your Cheney comment just goes to show what a fucknut you really are. There's absolutly nothing wrong with choosing a running mate that strengthens areas that you need work in. Having somebody that know the ropes while you are learning them yourself is, oh I don't know, smart.

Oh so you are admiting that your dark knight has no fucking clue what he is doing. Bravo!

[vasili denisov]

Hoping it's Biden (David Brooks)

Barack Obama has decided upon a vice-presidential running mate. And while I don’t know who it is as I write, for the good of the country, I hope he picked Joe Biden.

Biden’s weaknesses are on the surface. He has said a number of idiotic things over the years and, in the days following his selection, those snippets would be aired again and again.
But that won’t hurt all that much because voters are smart enough to forgive the genuine flaws of genuine people.

...

There are other veep choices. Tim Kaine seems like a solid man, but selecting him would be disastrous. It would underline all the anxieties voters have about youth and inexperience. Evan Bayh has impeccably centrist credentials, but the country is not in the mood for dispassionate caution.
Biden’s the one. The only question is whether Obama was wise and self-aware enough to know that.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/opinion/22brooks.html?em

[The Batman]

Oh so you are admiting that your dark knight has no fucking clue what he is doing. Bravo!


Dark knight? lol. nice racist joke. I personally think that it was a great choice and its smart to have someone who compliments your short comings. Everyone is bitching and moaning about experience and foriegn policy knowledge and now he has it. I am glad he chose Biden. After hearing this guy speak a couple times before I am eager to see what he could do in this political landscape.

[Hanover Fist]

I think Sam Nunn would have been a much better choice for Obamas VP. That way he could get all the foreign policy experience without half the buffoonery that a Biden brings.

Republican Senator John Warner Commenting on Nunn upon his exit from the Senate:
"Senator Nunn quickly established himself as one of the leading experts in the Congress and, indeed, all of the United States on national security and foreign policy. He gained a reputation in our country and, indeed, worldwide as a global thinker, and that is where I think he will make his greatest contribution in the years to come, wherever he may be, in terms of being a global thinker. His approach to national security issues has been guided by one fundamental criteria: What Sam Nunn believes is in the best interest of the United States of America."

[Claydon]

Dark knight? lol. nice racist joke. I personally think that it was a great choice and its smart to have someone who compliments your short comings. Everyone is bitching and moaning about experience and foriegn policy knowledge and now he has it. I am glad he chose Biden. After hearing this guy speak a couple times before I am eager to see what he could do in this political landscape.

The governor of NM would have been a superior choice to the wind bag he chose. Nunn would have been a stellar selection. As for my racist joke, would you prefer I had said "great white hope"... or should I default to Biden's phrase about obama as a "clean black man".

[vasili denisov]

I have a problem when someone in a conversation refers to a non-batman as "the dark knight", especially when the other person in the conversation is "the batman". It tends to addle my wee overstuffed brain.

[detroitwilly]

I'm so sick of people with their ghetto ass Obama shirts.
If you want to wear a shirt supporting the person you are voting for, well that's fine.
It's fucking weird, but fine, good for you.

But does it have to be a shirt with an enormous picture of the guys face on it?

I mean, is it a shirt from a concert?
no, this is becoming a sort of style, a fad.
Obama Shirts.

This is sick.
What will happen if the guy is elected?

[Claydon]

I'm so sick of people with their ghetto ass Obama shirts.
If you want to wear a shirt supporting the person you are voting for, well that's fine.
It's fucking weird, but fine, good for you.

But does it have to be a shirt with an enormous picture of the guys face on it?

I mean, is it a shirt from a concert?
no, this is becoming a sort of style, a fad.
Obama Shirts.

This is sick.
What will happen if the guy is elected?

rude awakening for all of his zealots when they realize that ABSOLUTELY nothing has changed.

[Claydon]

I think what is really, REALLY sad about the obama disciples on this board and around the country is that they simply cannot see the faults of their messiah. Look, I am a huge McCain supporter and have been for nearly 10 years, but even I can point out and easily see his faults as a politican. To the bulk of you, obama can do NO wrong, no one has mentioned how obama is pretty much doing a 180 on iraq or should i say "re-evaluating" his position, amongst many other things.

just sad

[Soup Nazi]

Oh noes, a president who actually changes his mind when facts begin to change. How horrible!

[Claydon]

Oh noes, a president who actually changes his mind when facts begin to change. How horrible!

Bit premature to refer to him as a president. Actually what it shows to me is that he formed an opinion based on a political agenda as opposed to the facts of the situation (referring to iraq).

[BIG PIZZLE]

Rather than stick to an incorrect opinion despite of facts to the contrary.

[Claydon]

Rather than stick to an incorrect opinion despite of facts to the contrary.

So you admit that his opinion on Iraq was incorrect and that he is changing his opinon based on facts. Yet the facts were apparent 6 months ago.

copy

if you are attempting to make a reference to our current president for being foolish in his management of operations you will not get a disagreement from me.

[The Batman]

The governor of NM would have been a superior choice to the wind bag he chose. Nunn would have been a stellar selection. As for my racist joke, would you prefer I had said "great white hope"... or should I default to Biden's phrase about obama as a "clean black man".


All of those choices are awesome. Racism is great.

[Gary_Busey]

Hmm, Obama/Biden '08.

[Soup Nazi]

Bit premature to refer to him as a president. Actually what it shows to me is that he formed an opinion based on a political agenda as opposed to the facts of the situation (referring to iraq).

Yes yes, I suppose I should have said Presidential Candidate, sorry. What it shows me is that he formed an opinion on the matter likely when he started his campaign, somewhere in the infancy or planning stages of the surge (or earlier). Shit changed, the surge was successful (though a debate could be made on that) and he "re-evaluated" his opinion. That to me makes sense, facts change, so often your actions will change. Just like McCain with off-shore drilling.

I suppose if I had an accurate time line of every Obama-Iraq statement, and matched it up with an accurate "surge" timeline, including planning stages and such, my opinion may change. But until then Obama's "re-evaluation" just makes sense to me.

[Claydon]

Hmm, Obama/Biden '08.

Hmmmm... Obama/Biden

or OB for short.

OB is the brand name for tampons right?

[Gary_Busey]

I wouldn't know.

[redsox39]

I didn't say he led us down a dark path after 9/11 (although choosing to put the command center below the Trade Center after the '93 attacks rather than Brooklyn was pretty stupid). I said he overplayed 9/11 by consistently and callously using it as an excuse for his actions and a platform for his candidacy.

In terms of crime...sure, props to him. Crime dipped in other cities in the 90s too, though. I'm not going to sit here and credit Clinton's 100,000 new cops, either. It was a prosperous time and crime tends to ebb during times of prosperity. Good confluence of factors there.

I will give Rudy credit, though...Judy Nathan > Monica Lewinsky.



You mean petty rather than pretty? McCain and Co. started the elitist thing. This isn't about the number of homes, it's about appearing hypocritical. Your post is like the ref calling the foul on the guy who retaliates.

Yeah, Judy is at least bangable! What the hell was Clinton thinking??!

[Francis Drake]

Hmm, Obama/Biden '08.

I'm actually going to vote now just because of Biden being on the ticket. I love that man.

[FarEastFornicator]

I wouldn't know.

Claydon would

rude awakening for all of his zealots when they realize that ABSOLUTELY nothing has changed.

you have become a big asshole, that's a change.

[jcmanuel]

One of my friends got punched by Bidens daughter as she went nuts. No joke.

[FarEastFornicator]

Can we perm ban you.

[Rover]

And also someone with a TON of experience, especially in foreign policy, which is exactly what he needed. Plus, they'll just spin that comment into "this just proves that Obama is willing to work with people that he doesn't necessarily get along with."My favorite Joe Biden quote from the primary campaign is when he said that McCain would be a better president than Obama.

I don't have any problem with Biden, although with his history he's more likely to end up saying something fairly damaging to Obamas campaign at some point. He has an enormous ego, although what Senator doesn't, he just seems to display it openly more than most.
It just doesn't really seem to help Obama all that much. An old white Senator from Delaware who has spent his entire adult life in public office? Not exactly the model for hope and change now is it?
I get his foreign policy experience but you also get his baggage, it seems like more negatives than positives. I was pretty surprised by this pick.It just doesn't help him. I see it as a very neutral pick. It completely removes his "change" ideas. Biden's been in the Senate almost as long as Obama's been alive. That's an interesting way to change Washington...from the inside out.

I don't think there's too many Biden negatives, other than his propensity to plagiarize Labour MP's speeches. Although, with the way Obama likes to borrow Deval Patrick's speeches, maybe they'll have fun "writing" speeches together.

Although, I did hear Karl Rove mention today that Biden might have a difficult time explaining why he voted against the Gulf War in '91, but voted for the Iraq War in '03. I would actually love to hear the logic behind those decisions.
Obama Shirts.

This is sick.
What will happen if the guy is elected?Bad things.

Yes yes, I suppose I should have said Presidential Candidate, sorry. What it shows me is that he formed an opinion on the matter likely when he started his campaign, somewhere in the infancy or planning stages of the surge (or earlier). Shit changed, the surge was successful (though a debate could be made on that) and he "re-evaluated" his opinion. That to me makes sense, facts change, so often your actions will change. Just like McCain with off-shore drilling.

I suppose if I had an accurate time line of every Obama-Iraq statement, and matched it up with an accurate "surge" timeline, including planning stages and such, my opinion may change. But until then Obama's "re-evaluation" just makes sense to me.Or you could just support the candidate who's been right about the Iraqi surge for the last 3 years, or however long he's been pushing it. Since we went in, I think. Obama's decision making sounds a lot like Bush 43's. Wrong, slight change but still wrong, stronger change but still wrong, eventually right after listening to John McCain. Actually, that sounds exactly like the way Obama and Bush make decisions. Obama was completely wrong about the surge and eventually adopted McCain's position. Russia invades Georgia and Obama's position eventually morphs into John McCain's.

Maybe there's something about this John McCain guy.

I'd prefer my president to get things right the first time. Maybe in 20 years Obama would have the experience, but not right now. Obama was against the surge, right up until it became completely obvious to everyone that there was no credible way left to say, "The surge isn't working."Hmm, Obama/Biden '08.Based on actual ability to do the job, it should be
Biden/Obama '08
At least that's what struck me when they were on the stage together.

[Soup Nazi]

Or you could just support the candidate who's been right about the Iraqi surge for the last 3 years, or however long he's been pushing it. Since we went in, I think. Obama's decision making sounds a lot like Bush 43's. Wrong, slight change but still wrong, stronger change but still wrong, eventually right after listening to John McCain. Actually, that sounds exactly like the way Obama and Bush make decisions. Obama was completely wrong about the surge and eventually adopted McCain's position. Russia invades Georgia and Obama's position eventually morphs into John McCain's.

Maybe there's something about this John McCain guy.

I'd prefer my president to get things right the first time. Maybe in 20 years Obama would have the experience, but not right now. Obama was against the surge, right up until it became completely obvious to everyone that there was no credible way left to say, "The surge isn't working."Based on actual ability to do the job, it should be
Biden/Obama '08
At least that's what struck me when they were on the stage together.

Hell, I'm not even registered yet, so I am not really supporting anyone right now. But anyway, I agree, to a certain extent. McCain was a vital part of the surge, which was the right strategy in Iraq and it should have been the strategy from day one. Hell, its possible if we went in with that strategy we would be out now.

However I did like the part I bolded there, because that is what it really boils down to for me. Getting things done correctly, the first time. With Obama, we (probably) would never of had a war in the first place, with McCain he has helped us be successful in it. So it really boils down to whether you would prefer to have the guy that (likely) never would have gotten us in this shit anyway, or the guy who supported this shit and successfully navigated us through it. Personally I would go with the guy who likely never would have got us in this shit to begin with.

[Claydon]

Hell, I'm not even registered yet, so I am not really supporting anyone right now. But anyway, I agree, to a certain extent. McCain was a vital part of the surge, which was the right strategy in Iraq and it should have been the strategy from day one. Hell, its possible if we went in with that strategy we would be out now.

However I did like the part I bolded there, because that is what it really boils down to for me. Getting things done correctly, the first time. With Obama, we (probably) would never of had a war in the first place, with McCain he has helped us be successful in it. So it really boils down to whether you would prefer to have the guy that (likely) never would have gotten us in this shit anyway, or the guy who supported this shit and successfully navigated us through it. Personally I would go with the guy who likely never would have got us in this shit to begin with.

War was inevitable, and if you do not believe that then you are delusional.

[freegood]

Just like war with Iran and N. Korea is inevitable?

The amount of excuses you dead end Bush supporters push for this ill gotten war is amazing. At this point, it's like you've given up trying.

[Genius]

War was inevitable, and if you do not believe that then you are delusional.
I believe synthetic delusions were what made the war inevitable.

[smith42687]

I believe synthetic delusions were what made the war inevitable.

Or the power of a single individual or small group to have an influence. You think Hitler wanted to just sit down and talk it all out? How about Stalin? You think Bush/Saddam/Osama wants to just play nice? I'm sure it's just a coincidence that violence and sex are the only two things shared by every single population throughout human history regardless of who or where they are located.

I think we're dumb for allowing the Iraq war to continue because a majority of our population is not benefiting. The American Revolution, Civil War, WW1+2 made sense for us as a nation because we had major gains... Vietnam, not so much. The problem isn't with the US President declaring war, it's when the declaration is for personal motives. People shat all over Washington and Lincoln and FDR for going to war too....

[Claydon]

Just like war with Iran and N. Korea is inevitable?

The amount of excuses you dead end Bush supporters push for this ill gotten war is amazing. At this point, it's like you've given up trying.

Bush supporter? me?

I think you are grossly mistaken. War was inevitable, even clinton was lobbing missiles at Iraq. Clinton was a hairs breath away from hostilities with N. Korea in 1994.

[smith42687]

Man, I cannot find one good thing about why Biden makes sense for Obama against McCain. Yeah, I get that Biden is a 35 year senator with great international experience, but I thought the whole point of Obama was that experience didn't matter and changing the old ways was the most important thing. It also doesn't help that Biden was part of the cluster-fuck of the '08 Presidential Race and has youtube clips saying McCain would be a better President.

I think if Obama was going to go this route, it should been out of desperation, not in advance of McCain's pick. I'm tired of the Republicans putting shitty conservatives on the ticket and winning. The parties has to get their asses handed to them before anything (the 'conservatives' who create the largest gov ever type shit) will actually change.

Bob Barr - praying for 2% this November.

[kareyn01]

Man, I cannot find one good thing about why Biden makes sense for Obama against McCain. Yeah, I get that Biden is a 35 year senator with great international experience, but I thought the whole point of Obama was that experience didn't matter and changing the old ways was the most important thing. It also doesn't help that Biden was part of the cluster-fuck of the '08 Presidential Race and has youtube clips saying McCain would be a better President.

I think if Obama was going to go this route, it should been out of desperation, not in advance of McCain's pick. I'm tired of the Republicans putting shitty conservatives on the ticket and winning. The parties has to get their asses handed to them before anything (the 'conservatives' who create the largest gov ever type shit) will actually change.

Bob Barr - praying for 2% this November.

I still think that Sebelius or Richardson would have made a better VP pick than Biden, for all the reasons you mentioned. I think that Obama looked at the situation this way: he's winning in the polls, and its basically his race to lose, so he can take a small hit on Biden, but then set him lose on McCain and whomever the Republican veep pick is, without lowering himself into the fray.

Richardson, however, would have helped with the Latino vote in New Mexico and Florida, the only two real states that are up-for-grabs in which the Latino vote will be a factor (correct me if I'm wrong, no other state is coming to mind).

Sebelius would have helped with the female vote and pulled some of Clinton's supporters back in.

I guess only time will tell what kind of impact Biden has on the campaign.

[Soup Nazi]

War was inevitable, and if you do not believe that then you are delusional.

Then call me the most delusional son of a bitch on earth. War with Iraq, inevitable? I would really like to hear your reasoning on that one Chief.

[sendhere1000]

Agreed.

[freegood]

Bush supporter? me?

I think you are grossly mistaken. War was inevitable, even clinton was lobbing missiles at Iraq. Clinton was a hairs breath away from hostilities with N. Korea in 1994.

I guess war with the Soviet Union was inevitable too.

[Claydon]

I guess war with the Soviet Union was inevitable too.

Proxy wars were inevitable, nuclear powers tend not to want to fight for some strange reason.

[Claydon]

Then call me the most delusional son of a bitch on earth. War with Iraq, inevitable? I would really like to hear your reasoning on that one Chief.

Violation of ....

why bother debating it any further. we are there, and we are not going any where for several years regardless of who is in office.

[Smokestack]

I think what is really, REALLY sad about the obama disciples on this board and around the country is that they simply cannot see the faults of their messiah. Look, I am a huge McCain supporter and have been for nearly 10 years, but even I can point out and easily see his faults as a politican. To the bulk of you, obama can do NO wrong, no one has mentioned how obama is pretty much doing a 180 on iraq or should i say "re-evaluating" his position, amongst many other things.

just sad

Are you fucking kidding me? McCain supporters on this board have been just as, if not more, unapologetic for their candidate's foibles. Obama's supporters have been pretty open and vocal of their displeasure with his support of the FISA cave and his move to the center, among other things. This is just a tired extension of the "messiah" argument. Is you think Obama supporters are blank-eyed zombies, check out those who automatically pull the levers when McCain says "drill here now" or "no raise taxes" or "victory in Iraq." And here I thought Obama was supposedly the one who spoke in vague generalities...

Violation of ....

why bother debating it any further. we are there, and we are not going any where for several years regardless of who is in office.

Yeah, we're there but the reason it's debated is because you have two candidates on either side of the decision to go to war. Seems about right that we build up McCain on his superawesome experience but then shrug our shoulders at his stupid support of your "inevitable war" by saying "we're already there" and, by extension, the geniuses who got us there are the best ones to lead us out. Ppptttthhhh.

[freegood]

Ya Brought It on Yourself! (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/209645.php)

08.22.08 -- 11:30AM
By Josh Marshall (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/joshmarshall.php)

About four years ago I described what I called the Republicans' 'bitch slap' theory of electoral politics (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/148765.php). Stuff like the Swift Boat attacks on John Kerry and McCain's Celeb/P Diddy assault on Obama aren't really about the attacks themselves. In themselves, they're often too cartoonish to be believed in any literal sense. What they're about is smacking the other guy around and making him take it. There's no better way to demonstrate someone's lack of toughness or strength than to attack them and show they are either unwilling or unable to defend themselves -- thus the rough slang I used above. That not only makes the other guy look weak. It also transforms him into an object of contempt, which together are politically fatal. It's this meta-message of weakness that resonates far beyond the literal claims. And it's this that Democrats so often seem to miss -- explaining the factual inaccuracies of the claims, demanding that the attacks stop, all the while reinforcing the intended message of the attacks in the first place.

You can even catch a hint of the mentality in the McCain camp's huffing and puffing Thursday afternoon. The new and somewhat improbable line from the McCain camp is that they've actually been doing their best to go easy on Obama, to hold back the stuff that would really make him suffer. But now that Obama's gone ahead and raised McCain's inability to remember how many houses, now he's really gonna get it with a super-mean Rezko ad and maybe even Reverend Wright. "He's opened the door to this," a McCain official told (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/mccain_prepares_rezko_ad_wrigh.php) Marc Ambinder, in a campaign version of the wife-beater's "You brought this on yourself!" As if McCain and his Rove lieutenants paid much mind to closed doors.

In effect, the devastating Rezko ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjC2AlWy6CI&eurl=http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/) McCain says it never wanted to have to run is pretty weak. Which is pretty much what you'd expect for an ad put together in three or four hours by a campaign shell-shocked by a media firestorm they couldn't put out by screaming POW, POW, POW.

What we'll see now is whether Obama keeps McCain on the run with a continuing line of attacks or whether they'll let up after this one reactive pick-up from McCain's mistake. The House? gaffe exposes two of McCain's biggest vulnerabilities -- 1) the contrast between his old soldier pseudo-mystique and the pampered life he's led for almost 40 years and 2) the age-related wobbliness which has his campaign aides keeping him largely off limits to the traveling press. These dovetail with his loose-cannon approach to critical foreign policy questions.

These issues -- particularly 2 and 3 -- are substantively critical issues. 1 is to the extent that it sheds light on McCain's general ignorance and indifference to bread-n-butter economic issues and his willingness to flip between progressive and Bushite tax policy over the course of a couple years. But the tempo of this election and the fall out from the 'celeb' attacks will be determined in large part not by factual particulars but by whether Obama can show that when someone hits him hard he hits back twice as hard. Not cowering, ignoring or complaining. This is about the score and not the libretto.

[redsox39]

Can we perm ban you.


nothing like a Liberal with a Censorship agenda. LMAO!

[redsox39]

Ya Brought It on Yourself! (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/209645.php)

08.22.08 -- 11:30AM
By Josh Marshall (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/joshmarshall.php)

About four years ago I described what I called the Republicans' 'bitch slap' theory of electoral politics (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/148765.php). Stuff like the Swift Boat attacks on John Kerry and McCain's Celeb/P Diddy assault on Obama aren't really about the attacks themselves. In themselves, they're often too cartoonish to be believed in any literal sense. What they're about is smacking the other guy around and making him take it. There's no better way to demonstrate someone's lack of toughness or strength than to attack them and show they are either unwilling or unable to defend themselves -- thus the rough slang I used above. That not only makes the other guy look weak. It also transforms him into an object of contempt, which together are politically fatal. It's this meta-message of weakness that resonates far beyond the literal claims. And it's this that Democrats so often seem to miss -- explaining the factual inaccuracies of the claims, demanding that the attacks stop, all the while reinforcing the intended message of the attacks in the first place.

You can even catch a hint of the mentality in the McCain camp's huffing and puffing Thursday afternoon. The new and somewhat improbable line from the McCain camp is that they've actually been doing their best to go easy on Obama, to hold back the stuff that would really make him suffer. But now that Obama's gone ahead and raised McCain's inability to remember how many houses, now he's really gonna get it with a super-mean Rezko ad and maybe even Reverend Wright. "He's opened the door to this," a McCain official told (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/mccain_prepares_rezko_ad_wrigh.php) Marc Ambinder, in a campaign version of the wife-beater's "You brought this on yourself!" As if McCain and his Rove lieutenants paid much mind to closed doors.

In effect, the devastating Rezko ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjC2AlWy6CI&eurl=http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/) McCain says it never wanted to have to run is pretty weak. Which is pretty much what you'd expect for an ad put together in three or four hours by a campaign shell-shocked by a media firestorm they couldn't put out by screaming POW, POW, POW.

What we'll see now is whether Obama keeps McCain on the run with a continuing line of attacks or whether they'll let up after this one reactive pick-up from McCain's mistake. The House? gaffe exposes two of McCain's biggest vulnerabilities -- 1) the contrast between his old soldier pseudo-mystique and the pampered life he's led for almost 40 years and 2) the age-related wobbliness which has his campaign aides keeping him largely off limits to the traveling press. These dovetail with his loose-cannon approach to critical foreign policy questions.

These issues -- particularly 2 and 3 -- are substantively critical issues. 1 is to the extent that it sheds light on McCain's general ignorance and indifference to bread-n-butter economic issues and his willingness to flip between progressive and Bushite tax policy over the course of a couple years. But the tempo of this election and the fall out from the 'celeb' attacks will be determined in large part not by factual particulars but by whether Obama can show that when someone hits him hard he hits back twice as hard. Not cowering, ignoring or complaining. This is about the score and not the libretto.

Yeah, Good thing Liberals NEVER use Celeb-retards to attack political candidates. GTFO!

And as far as the pampered life McCain has lived...Obama still living in a card board box then? I thought he was a Millionaire...Musy be a hard life when a Millionaire can't lead a pampered life...

[Kilgore]

I'm pretty stoked that Obama picked Joe. Biden is who I orginally wanted in the white house. I thought for sure that he would pick Hill as VP and maybe Joe as Secretary of State.

I was watching CNN over the weekend and some poll said 50% of Americans didn't know who Joe Biden was. Are Americans really that dense? The guy has ran for President before and ran this year not to mention being the senate for 30 years.

I was over at my moms this weekend. She said from a female point of view that Joe is a very handsome man with a great smile and charisma. Some women that don't pay any attention to this will vote just on that. I guess that kinda of like the Bush is the kinda guy you want to have over at the BBQ and have a beer with factor.

[Mr. Brown]

Something I have to get off my chest. I guess it goes here. On the local, mostly "urban" radio stations that I listen to they talk a mean game about people going out and register to vote. They use these lines like people went to jail and died for you to have this right. I get the civil rights movement, but just going to register doesn't mean a damn thing. You also have to go vote. It's going to be sad that there's gonna be a lot of new register voters and either they don't vote or they just vote b/c it's fashionable to do so now.

[Pharon]

Agreed.
Well done. Great first post.

[kareyn01]

Something I have to get off my chest. I guess it goes here. On the local, mostly "urban" radio stations that I listen to they talk a mean game about people going out and register to vote. They use these lines like people went to jail and died for you to have this right. I get the civil rights movement, but just going to register doesn't mean a damn thing. You also have to go vote. It's going to be sad that there's gonna be a lot of new register voters and either they don't vote or they just vote b/c it's fashionable to do so now.

Its really no worse than any other group of people that don't know anything about the issues, but still vote. People all over the country will pull the Republican or Democratic lever simply because that's what their parents and grandparents did, no matter how much the parties have changed since World War II and the Civil Rights movement.

That being said, people DID go to jail, or get beaten, or die, for the right to vote, and its pretty sad that that legacy is lost on a lot of people of all races. The right to vote is your own prerogative, but people's priorities are fucked up across the board.

[Tar Heel]

Yeah, Good thing Liberals NEVER use Celeb-retards to attack political candidates. GTFO!

And as far as the pampered life McCain has lived...Obama still living in a card board box then? I thought he was a Millionaire...Musy be a hard life when a Millionaire can't lead a pampered life...

That post hardly says anything about celeb endorsement/attack. The main point of the article was about campaign attacks/strategy.

[Mr. Brown]

Its really no worse than any other group of people that don't know anything about the issues, but still vote. People all over the country will pull the Republican or Democratic lever simply because that's what their parents and grandparents did, no matter how much the parties have changed since World War II and the Civil Rights movement.

That being said, people DID go to jail, or get beaten, or die, for the right to vote, and its pretty sad that that legacy is lost on a lot of people of all races. The right to vote is your own prerogative, but people's priorities are fucked up across the board.
yeah I'm not sure who I'm gonna vote for, but I'm going to at least vote on the local things. There's so much emphasis on the Obama/McCain that people forget (or don't pay attention to) the local shit that impacts you sooner rather than later. yeah the economy is fucked, but if my area isn't safe I gotta go pick up my girl at the station every night b/c it's not safe for her to walk home.

[Pharon]

I'm voting for the guy with the best tan.

[Rover]

Natural?

[Mr. Brown]

go for the guy who can raise his hands up.

[smith42687]

Something I have to get off my chest. I guess it goes here. On the local, mostly "urban" radio stations that I listen to they talk a mean game about people going out and register to vote. They use these lines like people went to jail and died for you to have this right. I get the civil rights movement, but just going to register doesn't mean a damn thing. You also have to go vote. It's going to be sad that there's gonna be a lot of new register voters and either they don't vote or they just vote b/c it's fashionable to do so now.

Yeah, it's all a farce. We live in a Republic, not a democracy. Besides, urban areas always vote democrat, poor people are financially stupid not to.

The Electoral College > MLK + Women's Suffrage.

[Pharon]

We live in a Republic, not a democracy.
This is not directed at you, per se, but I fucking hate it when people say this. If you're going to be an asshole about it, at least be precise. What you mean to say is this: "We live in a Constitutional Republic, not a Direct Democracy."

Because the fact is, we actually do live in a democracy -- a REPRESENTATIVE democracy.

[Claydon]

Because the fact is, we actually do live in a democracy -- a REPRESENTATIVE democracy.

Ahem...

Democratic Republic

[smith42687]

Because the fact is, we actually do live in a democracy -- a REPRESENTATIVE democracy.

Isn't that just a euphemism for Republic? Where people who are selected as worthy get to together and decide things for everyone instead of everyone having a say?

[Hobnail_Boot]

Is it me or was Pelosi's speech full of fail? Mostly the delivery.

[Claydon]

Is it me or was Pelosi's speech full of fail? Mostly the delivery.

Pelosi is all about the fail.

[Creepnation]

They had to get Pelosi out of the way the first night.

No matter who gets voted in office, McCain or Obama, it's just going to be more of the same old shit anyways.

[Lone Wolf]

Michelle Obama is an impressive speaker

[nuclearjew]

...for me to poop on

[nuclearjew]

Man, the DNC loves their Stevie Wonder.

[Lone Wolf]

Now tell me that family cheese wasn't pure gold for Americans

[Hobnail_Boot]

Michelle Obama is an impressive speaker
Now tell me that family cheese wasn't pure gold for Americans
Yes, that was a terrific speech. But that won't matter to the right wing (FOX News) tomorrow. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Michelle Obama mention God or Jesus in her speech? Even once? If she didn't, she'll be criticized for it. "How can she talk about her family's values and not mention God?!"

You mark my words.

I know politicians (and their wives or surrogates) can't write their speeches and escape any criticism, but it's what I've come to expect from Republicans these days.

[nuclearjew]

She mentioned something about the spirit of her father and that moment was somewhat religious and non-denominational.

I love it when people complain that a politician isn't religious enough. Separation of church and state is for fags!

[Hobnail_Boot]

She mentioned something about the spirit of her father and that moment was somewhat religious and non-denominational.
That won't be good enough for the religious right.

[kareyn01]

Also, three men with rifles were arrested by the FBI about a mile from the Convention Center, who apparently were planning to assassinate Obama (sorry, I don't have a link, but it was reported by NBC news).

I don't know how they were planning to do it, other than shooting the screen that was projecting Obama's picture from KANSAS CITY! The man isn't even in your state, and you're planning on killing him with rifles. Can we please just drop these morons in a hole somewhere and pretend like they never existed?

Link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article4609445.ece

It was also four people, not the three originally mentioned.

[Hobnail_Boot]

Also, three men with rifles were arrested by the FBI about a mile from the Convention Center, who apparently were planning to assassinate Obama (sorry, I don't have a link, but it was reported by NBC news).

I don't know how they were planning to do it, other than shooting the screen that was projecting Obama's picture from KANSAS CITY! The man isn't even in your state, and you're planning on killing him with rifles. Can we please just drop these morons in a hole somewhere and pretend like they never existed?
Wow. That's actually a big deal. Good thing these guys are morons and aren't being aided by the government. Or were there...

[Debo]

Also, three men with rifles were arrested by the FBI about a mile from the Convention Center, who apparently were planning to assassinate Obama (sorry, I don't have a link, but it was reported by NBC news).

I don't know how they were planning to do it, other than shooting the screen that was projecting Obama's picture from KANSAS CITY! The man isn't even in your state, and you're planning on killing him with rifles. Can we please just drop these morons in a hole somewhere and pretend like they never existed?

Here is a link.
http://cbs4denver.com/investigates/assisination.plot.obama.2.802827.html

How do you feel about these (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/live-from-dnc-its-zombietime-day-1/) morons?

[kareyn01]

Prisoner's rights? What prisoners? Maybe they should have been a little more specific before they tried to "recreate 68". I think I'm starting to come to the realization that I just don't like a large portion of the world's population...

[vasili denisov]

Here is a link.
http://cbs4denver.com/investigates/assisination.plot.obama.2.802827.html

How do you feel about these (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/live-from-dnc-its-zombietime-day-1/) morons?
Are you seriously comparing a bunch of people expressing a political opinion you disagree with and killing a black man? Because the first has been allowed since the inception of this great republic, and the second has been allowed since the inception of this great republic, though recently disallowed.

[Claydon]

Michelle does well with teleprompters, just like her husband Barry.

[Lone Wolf]

What's wrong with that?

[Debo]

Are you seriously comparing a bunch of people expressing a political opinion you disagree with and killing a black man? Because the first has been allowed since the inception of this great republic, and the second has been allowed since the inception of this great republic, though recently disallowed.

Way to read between the lines there.

I never stated my opinion about any of the protesters or their right to act like d-bags. You are the one that has drawn a comparison between the protesters and the alleged killers.

Is killing a black man worse than killing a white man? WTF does the color his a persons skin matter? Killing someone without cause (e.g., self defense, in combat, etc.) is wrong and the justification for punishment shouldn't rest of the color of the deceased's skin.

[Pharon]

Isn't that just a euphemism for Republic? Where people who are selected as worthy get to together and decide things for everyone instead of everyone having a say?
A republic is a country ruled by law (vs. say dictator, whim, or mob rule). And all I was trying to point out is that the United States is both a republic and a democracy -- just specific types of both. That's all.

[willy62]

What do you think of Obama not knowing where he was? He said he was in St. Louis, but was in KC. Big mistake on national airwaves in front of millions.

[Hanover Fist]

What do you think of Obama not knowing where he was? He said he was in St. Louis, but was in KC. Big mistake on national airwaves in front of millions.

It's not his fault, someone probably fucked up his cue card.

[redsox39]

Are you seriously comparing a bunch of people expressing a political opinion you disagree with and killing a black man? Because the first has been allowed since the inception of this great republic, and the second has been allowed since the inception of this great republic, though recently disallowed.

How about Killing a man who they "violently" disagree with. If someone wanted to kill McCain, you wouldn't say "killing a white man". The only real racist in here is you. It can't be about ideas, or politics, it always comes down to race with the left.

And then you try to project it to eveyone else.

[Tar Heel]

Are you seriously comparing a bunch of people expressing a political opinion you disagree with and killing a black man? Because the first has been allowed since the inception of this great republic, and the second has been allowed since the inception of this great republic, though recently disallowed.


Way to read between the lines there.

I never stated my opinion about any of the protesters or their right to act like d-bags. You are the one that has drawn a comparison between the protesters and the alleged killers.

Is killing a black man worse than killing a white man? WTF does the color his a persons skin matter? Killing someone without cause (e.g., self defense, in combat, etc.) is wrong and the justification for punishment shouldn't rest of the color of the deceased's skin.


How about Killing a man who they "violently" disagree with. If someone wanted to kill McCain, you wouldn't say "killing a white man". The only real racist in here is you. It can't be about ideas, or politics, it always comes down to race with the left.

And then you try to project it to eveyone else.



Wow. That went right over both of your heads.

[redsox39]

No, I got exactly what he meant. This country treats blacks like shit, and until recently it used to be worse. And based upon earlier posts, it can be assumed this is all because of Republicans.
And to compare the riot's at the 68 convention to killing a (man) is fucked up. (I agree with that part.)
No, I got it...

[Tar Heel]

Umm... no.

It was a joke.

[Axel]

What do you think of Obama not knowing where he was? He said he was in St. Louis, but was in KC. Big mistake on national airwaves in front of millions.Yeah, what a tard! If there would only be a chance to keep the current, all that verbally articulated, unfaultable and intellectually superior US president on power for indefinite time.

I mean...

[freegood]

What's wrong with that?

Claydon's used to a geriatric fumbling lines around in a pathetic attempt to look like a genuine straight talking sumbitch.

[Rover]

Michelle Obama's speech was okay. I'm not a big fan of first lady speeches. It certainly wasn't great. She's given better speeches when she rails against the injustices of the country that allowed her to get rich. She did mention God. Right at the end, she asked Him to bless America and everybody. I guess that's better than askingGod to damn America.

The speech wasn't for me. I can't reconcile her words last night that were written by 20 staffers and focus group tested with what she's said on her own.
Prisoner's rights? What prisoners? Maybe they should have been a little more specific before they tried to "recreate 68". I think I'm starting to come to the realization that I just don't like a large portion of the world's population...I saw some news clips of protesters marching through Denver protesting the police state we are all currently living in. They had some clever phrase to shout through a bullhorn, something like, "What is a police state? This is a police state." I hoped that the police would actually roll up and arrest them all, which they didn't, which I belive destroys the premise of their argument.

[Kilgore]

I really liked Michelle's Speach, thought she was very articulate and interesting to hear.

Is it me or does she have no tits?

[Smokestack]

By potential first lady standards, Michelle Obama's speech was very well-delivered and probably served its purpose. There was no religiosity in it, so it wasn't aimed at the religious right. It obviously wasn't aimed at at people whose minds had already been made up. It was made to ameliorate her standing with those who lean democratic but are leery of both her and her husband (hence, the shots out to Hillary and the constant softening of her image). I've spoken to a couple of people today who fit into this category who were very impressed with her speech.

The red meat begins tonight, it seems.

[redsox39]

Are you seriously comparing a bunch of people expressing a political opinion you disagree with and killing a black man? Because the first has been allowed since the inception of this great republic, and the second has been allowed since the inception of this great republic, though recently disallowed.

Michelle Obama's speech was okay. I'm not a big fan of first lady speeches. It certainly wasn't great. She's given better speeches when she rails against the injustices of the country that allowed her to get rich. She did mention God. Right at the end, she asked Him to bless America and everybody. I guess that's better than askingGod to damn America.

The speech wasn't for me. I can't reconcile her words last night that were written by 20 staffers and focus group tested with what she's said on her own.
I saw some news clips of protesters marching through Denver protesting the police state we are all currently living in. They had some clever phrase to shout through a bullhorn, something like, "What is a police state? This is a police state." I hoped that the police would actually roll up and arrest them all, which they didn't, which I belive destroys the premise of their argument.

We had a "Peace Rally" in North Omaha not too long ago because we have had a shooting everyday this summer. The Neighbor hood shows up, and blames every ill in the hood on the police. It turned into an anti police rally, which I found ironic. Like the hood is problem free if it weren't for those pesky police officers.

[Mr. Brown]

Where are some basic places I can send some friends who want to know about the candidates? I have two friends who are eligible to vote for the 1st time and they want to get some info. Where are like 4-5 sites that will give the best overview of the candidates and what they stand for.

They don't know shit about them except that one is black and the other was in a war. (shakes head in shame)

[heelsguy]

i hope biden makes sure his speech is 100% original...if not software is out there at the RDC to expose him

[Mr. Brown]

when does he speak?

[Rover]

Wednesday night.

[Mr. Brown]

So who's on tonight Hillary and who else?

[StrangeBrew]

Mark Warner is the keynote speaker tonight.

[willy62]

I can't wait to hear and see how much Hilary has to hide her true feelings about Obama. It will be a true Academy Award winning performance.

[Pharon]

i hope biden makes sure his speech is 100% original...if not software is out there at the RDC to expose him
I hope he calls Obama clean and articulate again.

[freegood]

I hope he calls Obama clean and articulate again.

This time around, he'll refrain from giving Obama his keys to park his car.

[Rover]

It would be better if Biden would just say that McCain would be a better president than Obama, and offer to run on McCain's ticket.

[halfabubbleoff]

Where are some basic places I can send some friends who want to know about the candidates? I have two friends who are eligible to vote for the 1st time and they want to get some info. Where are like 4-5 sites that will give the best overview of the candidates and what they stand for.

They don't know shit about them except that one is black and the other was in a war. (shakes head in shame)


I recommended this on the old board. I will do so here again.

My personal favorite site for election information on the candidates is Project Vote Smart at http://www.votesmart.org/They take each candidate and break them down in a non-partisan list of what they stand for (not against)

Of course, the best sites for "information" about the candidates are their campaign sites. Each site will have an outline of their platform and what they want you to know about them as well as their opponent.

If your friends have the time and are intelligent, I would also recommend hitting some partisan sites to get the "worst" of each candidate as well. You learn more about a person when you debunk the falsehoods spread about them as well as learning what they want you to know as well.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Smokestack]

It would be better if Biden would just say that McCain would be a better president than Obama, and offer to run on McCain's ticket.

Now that would be a ticket all of the experience-mongers could beat off to.

[bluesteel]

OBAMA 2008 to save the country

[Mr. Brown]

Shut up

[Claydon]

I hope he calls Obama clean and articulate again.

I bet you were fapping to Kennedy's speech monday night.

The same man who is going to the top private hospitals on the east coast for his cancer treatment is the same man who is railing against that system at the DNC.

Oh the irony....

[Claydon]

OBAMA 2008 to save the country

2 bucks says he has one of those obama shirts with the guys face and the word "change" beneath it.

[Mr. Brown]

No he has the one that has MLK and Obama and it says "Dream Achieved"

[Claydon]

No he has the one that has MLK and Obama and it says "Dream Achieved"

Can't wait for January 21st 2012 when they wake and realize...

nothing changed.

[Mr. Brown]

Yeah there are alot of poor saps who think getting a black president is not gonna make new jobs for them over night.

[Mr. Brown]

At this point I need someone who's going to help the economy and health care. not just during their terms(s) but set up something that's going to last.

[Claydon]

Yeah there are alot of poor saps who think getting a black president is not gonna make new jobs for them over night.

China will still manufacture goods for less than $1/hour for labor, gasoline will still be expensive since we do not want exploration in this country, we will still be involved in the middle east. Although he may get some kind of national healthcare through, but it will be bloated, expensive and inefficient and increasing our entitlement burden that much more.

[Mr. Brown]

It's gonna be like the OJ verdict all over again if/when Obama wins.

"we won we won" What the fuck did we win?"

[Smokestack]

It's gonna be like the OJ verdict all over again if/when Obama wins.

Here comes the stupid! Reading your and Claydon's back-and-forth is like watching retarded kids fling shit at each other, thinking it's chocolate.

[Mr. Brown]

What? You really don't think that in some small pockets of the inner city people will not be honking horns and making fools of themselves on TV?

BTW who the fuck are you?

[Tar Heel]

Right now there are people/organizations using the race card like a 21 year old trophy wife with a credit card. *CoughjessiejacksonCough* If he gets elected, I think that shit has to stop and affirmative action will slowly die. You can't go around calling everyone racists and biased when the majority of the nation's citizens just voted for a black president.

[Mr. Brown]

I don't give a shit about the color of my president as long as my pockets are lined with green and my streets are running red.

[willy62]

At this point I need someone who's going to help the economy and health care. not just during their terms(s) but set up something that's going to last.


Dems think the economy will get better by their leaders, but my question is how? If they raise taxes to give (health care to underprivileged people) how in the world is the economy going to get better. They are taking more money out of your pay check thus causing you spend less.

[Kilgore]

Dems think the economy will get better by their leaders, but my question is how? If they raise taxes to give (health care to underprivileged people) how in the world is the economy going to get better. They are taking more money out of your pay check thus causing you spend less.
Who says they have to raise taxes? W didn't to finace his war.

[Hobnail_Boot]

Where are some basic places I can send some friends who want to know about the candidates? I have two friends who are eligible to vote for the 1st time and they want to get some info. Where are like 4-5 sites that will give the best overview of the candidates and what they stand for.

They don't know shit about them except that one is black and the other was in a war. (shakes head in shame)
Send them to GMF and have them PM me! I'll tell them everything I they need to know.

[Lone Wolf]

How fun would it be if Hilary cuts one of those out of nowhere heel wrestling promos and goes Republican on the convention.

[willy62]

Who says they have to raise taxes? W didn't to finace his war.


How is it W's war? I thought we got attacked on 911 by someone else and then we went after the attackers and the other countries who help those terrorist, oh and by the way we did capture a world leader who has been the closest thing to Hitler in our lifetime by torturing his own people and taking from them to better himself. Who says they have to raise taxes? The Dems do themselves in everything they talk about. Where taxes higher when Clinton or Bush were in office?

[freegood]

How is it W's war? I thought we got attacked on 911 by someone else and then we went after the attackers and the other countries who help those terrorist, oh and by the way we did capture a world leader who has been the closest thing to Hitler in our lifetime by torturing his own people and taking from them to better himself. Who says they have to raise taxes? The Dems do themselves in everything they talk about. Where taxes higher when Clinton or Bush were in office?

Because Saddam had nothing to do with 911, bin Laden, or al Qaeda.

Just because a bully punches you in the nose doesn't mean you get a free pass at kicking a Doberman.

[willy62]

Because Saddam had nothing to do with 911, bin Laden, or al Qaeda.

Just because a bully punches you in the nose doesn't mean you get a free pass at kicking a Doberman.


Saddam helped finance and harbor the terrorist in his country!!!! What more do you need. Besides he was causing his own people great pain and suffering. Are we suppose to just stand by and watch and laugh while all this goes on???

[Tar Heel]

Saddam helped finance and harbor the terrorist in his country!!!! What more do you need. Besides he was causing his own people great pain and suffering. Are we suppose to just stand by and watch and laugh while all this goes on???

That is going on in about 100 different countries right now. Do you suggest we invade and occupy those nations as well?

[freegood]

Saddam helped finance and harbor the terrorist in his country!!!! What more do you need. Besides he was causing his own people great pain and suffering. Are we suppose to just stand by and watch and laugh while all this goes on???

Unless Saddam paid for their tickets to America or taught them to swim around the Persian Gulf and across the Atlantic, your thin tie with him and 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 doesn't pass.

I'm heartened you feel a great sympathy for our formerly oppressed Arab brothers, let alone the bullshit happening to other countries right now (Sudan, Myanmar, N. Korea, Saudi Arabia...) . What do you think of the hundreds of thousands in Iraqi casualties, the sectarian violence that has torn apart communities, pitted neighbors against each other and has displaced millions of families to neighboring countries?

Are you to stand by and watch and laugh while all this goes on???

[Hanover Fist]

That is going on in about 100 different countries right now. Do you suggest we invade and occupy those nations as well?

No, only ones that violated a cease fire agreement with us.

[willy62]

That is going on in about 100 different countries right now. Do you suggest we invade and occupy those nations as well?

You are missing the point!!! He harbored the terrorist and was giving aid to the terrorist that attacked our country while at the same time was destroying his own people for the betterment of himself.

[willy62]

Unless Saddam paid for their tickets to America or taught them to swim around the Persian Gulf and across the Atlantic, your thin tie with him and 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 doesn't pass.

I'm heartened you feel a great sympathy for our formerly oppressed Arab brothers, let alone the bullshit happening to other countries right now (Sudan, Myanmar, N. Korea, Saudi Arabia...) . What do you think of the hundreds of thousands in Iraqi casualties, the sectarian violence that has torn apart communities, pitted neighbors against each other and has displaced millions of families to neighboring countries?

Are you to stand by and watch and laugh while all this goes on???


That was going on and being done by Saddam himself!!! Are you that uninformed of the situation. His was displacing his own people and torturing them as well.

[freegood]

Sounds like a good pitch to sign up for the military.

But it's still going on right now. Some things can't be repaired like the mini cleansing of minority families in heavy Shia or Sunni communities....

So who's next on the hitlist, cheif?

[willy62]

Sounds like a good pitch to sign up for the military.

But it's still going on right now. Some things can't be repaired like the mini cleansing of minority families in heavy Shia or Sunni communities....

So who's next on the hitlist, cheif?


There is no question that this is going on right now. I am not saying we take on the whole world, but what I am saying is that Iraq and its leaders where harboring the terrorist and we went in after them to get rid of them. At the same time Iraq had a leader that was performing genocide in his own country and we took care of him. The people of Iraq are very thankful for all that we do. I know this through several friends that have served in Iraq. The news media in America only tells the bad and never tells the good. Yes we have struggled at times, but it is a lot better now.

Who's next? I don't know, but if they are helping and aiding evil or threatening our country and freedom than I feel we should do something about it.

[kareyn01]

There is no question that this is going on right now. I am not saying we take on the whole world, but what I am saying is that Iraq and its leaders where harboring the terrorist and we went in after them to get rid of them. At the same time Iraq had a leader that was performing genocide in his own country and we took care of him. The people of Iraq are very thankful for all that we do. I know this through several friends that have served in Iraq. The news media in America only tells the bad and never tells the good. Yes we have struggled at times, but it is a lot better now.

Who's next? I don't know, but if they are helping and aiding evil or threatening our country and freedom than I feel we should do something about it.

If we honestly cared that Saddam Hussein was committing genocide, we either would have taken him out during the first Gulf War, or wouldn't have waited almost a decade to go back in after him.

We didn't give a shit about Pol Pot, didn't care about East Timor, didn't care about Rwanda, didn't care about Argentina literally dropping people out of planes into the ocean, and haven't done anything about North Korea or Sudan.

Based on that information you can't legitimately claim that we invaded Iraq because of Saddam's genocide, terrible as his were.

[Claydon]

So, it looks like the Biden choice may not have done much for Obama. For a guy with 100+ million in the bank, world travels, and the whole hope and change thing, not to mention his rock star status, he sure does seem to be struggling a bit.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109834/Gallup-Daily-Bounce-Obama-Post-Biden-Tracking.aspx

It is a poll, so take it for what it is worth.

I am sure he will get a few points following the convention. At this stage I think McCain could potentially win... potentially. He has to get his campaign uber focused and stop fucking around.

[kid_vidrio]

I'd say John has a great shot at it.
Incredible but true.

[Claydon]

I'd say John has a great shot at it.
Incredible but true.

As with 04 and 00 it is the dems to lose. And they really know how to lose. However, I think McCain is a much stronger candidate than bush.

[Mr. Brown]

anyone know who are McCain's top choices for VP?

[Claydon]

anyone know who are McCain's top choices for VP?

No...but I swear Romney was in the running, and I think that would be a good ticket actually.

[redsox39]

Here comes the stupid! Reading your and Claydon's back-and-forth is like watching retarded kids fling shit at each other, thinking it's chocolate.

This is from the guy who thinks "Experience" is a fear mongering tactic that should not be an issue.

So instead of addressing anything, he does what all lefties do when they realize everything they beleive in is a lie. Start calling people retarded and see what happens...

[kareyn01]

No...but I swear Romney was in the running, and I think that would be a good ticket actually.

How would a Mormon that was pro-choice until two years ago help McCain with the area that he is weakest in his own party: the conservative, Evangelical Christian right?

Plus, if you pick Romney, you lose the elitist attacks on Obama, since Romney is worth over $200 million (and no, I don't have a problem with him being worth a lot of money, but it does have strategic implications), and you also have the "Hillary and Biden said bad things about Obama" ads thrown right back at McCain, since he and Romney despise each other.

Granted, I don't think there's really anybody else out there that makes a good fit. Huckabee might have before he made the Obama assassination joke, Pawlenty is unknown, and Ridge is pro-choice. Not good pickins for the Republicans.