How do you feel about the thought of Vice President Palin?

[Mustard]

We really could do this for all four of the candidates, (Obama/McCain/Biden/Palin) but for the sake of argument lets focus on Palin and the possible reality of her being Vice President.

Videos of Pallin and her interviews are needed so that people can get the best possible reactions and form a more accurate opinion. I have provided some, but more are needed. Thanks!

Charlie Gibson interview:
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Interview from CNBC's Kudlow & Cramer before nomination:
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Katie Couric interview:
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For the record, I would feel and be terrified if Sarah Palin is elected to become the #2 Executive of the Federal Government.

[Deadhead Derek]

as the National review stated last week, she is out of her league. it was a stunt, and our nation is not run by the result of a stunt.I am sickened by the interviews and comments I have heard, and the witch hatin' preacher, the attempt at banning books in wasilla... nah, the USA could do a shitload better.

[nuclearjew]

Meh. Better her than Dick Cheney.

[Deadhead Derek]

dunno, at least he shot a lawyer in the face, all she shoots are moose and wolves and stuff that shouldn't be shot.

[kid_vidrio]

Ya know, I'm thinkin', since she wants to make sure Alaskans are taken care of, and since it's a pretty cool job and all, then yeah, maybe she should just go ahead and stay there. That way she won't be havin' to do any workin' on a job that isn't as demandin' as her cool job as governor is. Yeah. That's cool.

[Hanover Fist]

The fact that virtually everyone bitching about her had no intention of voting for the McCain ticket anyway means it was probably a decent choice. When actual conservatives or McCain backers on here start bitching about her, then I'll be concerned.
I personally have no problem with her and absolutely feel she is a better choice than a lot of the people McCain was contemplating. I still haven't decided whether I am voting McCain in November, although her selection has definitely made me lean more that way. It would probably be a combination of how bad Obama would be with how tolerable McCain would be. Palin makes McCain slightly more tolerable.

[heelsguy]

she has accomplished quite a bit, and all on her own. She would have a cabinet of experts to guide her, and even if she became veep and God forbid something happened to McCain, all a president does anyway is set the white house agenda--which congress can decide to screw up anyway. Everyone agrees she is smart. experience comes from DOING. My bet is she would be up for the job much more than dan qualye was.

[freegood]

I am fearful of the terrifyingprospect of her becoming president should McCain croak.

[Hanover Fist]

I am fearful of the terrifyingprospect of her becoming president should McCain croak.

I am fearful of the terrifying prospect of Obama or Biden becoming president period.

[ElvisWong]

I think Palin is a fucking cheerleaders !!!

[hatepoppy]

i would have voted for mccain over gore or kerry, easy.

i was undecided most of this campaign.

i cant have one geezers heartbeat between palin and the presidency.

experience is one thing. education is another. obama's close to on par w her experience, but he doesnt sound grossly unintelligent and incompetentat every opportunity.

has anyone ever seen a good (as in, not embarassing) video of this broad?

[Deadhead Derek]

The fact that virtually everyone bitching about her had no intention of voting for the McCain ticket anyway means it was probably a decent choice. When actual conservatives or McCain backers on here start bitching about her, then I'll be concerned.
I personally have no problem with her and absolutely feel she is a better choice than a lot of the people McCain was contemplating. I still haven't decided whether I am voting McCain in November, although her selection has definitely made me lean more that way. It would probably be a combination of how bad Obama would be with how tolerable McCain would be. Palin makes McCain slightly more tolerable.


Umm, like this from the National Review?

Conservatives Begin Questioning Palin’s Heft (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/28/conservatives-begin-questioning-palins-heft/)

by Associated Press
Sunday, September 28, 2008


A growing number of Republicans are expressing concern about Sarah Palin’s uneven - and sometimes downright awkward - performances in her limited media appearances.
Conservative columnist Kathleen Parker, a former Palin supporter, says the vice presidential nominee should step aside. Kathryn Jean Lopez, writing for the conservative National Review, says “that’s not a crazy suggestion” and that “something’s gotta change.”
Tony Fabrizio, a GOP strategist, says Palin’s recent CBS appearance isn’t disqualifying but is certainly alarming. “You can’t continue to have interviews like that and not take on water.”
“I have not been blown away by the interviews from her, but at the same time, I haven’t come away from them thinking she doesn’t know s-t,” said Chris Lacivita, a GOP strategist. “But she ain’t Dick Cheney, nor Joe Biden and definitely not Hillary Clinton.”
There is no doubt that Palin retains a tremendous amount of support among rank-and-file Republicans. She draws huge crowds, continues to raise a lot of money for the McCain campaign, and state parties report she has sparked an uptick in the number of volunteers.
Asked about Palin’s performance in the CBS interview, a McCain official briefing reporters on condition of anonymity said: “She did fine. She’s a tremendous asset and a fantastic candidate.”
But there is also no doubt many Republican insiders are worried she could blow next week’s debate, based on her unexpectedly weak and unsteady media appearances, and hurt the Republican ticket if she does.
What follows is a viewer’s guide to some of Palin’s toughest moments on camera so far.
Speaking this week with CBS’s Katie Couric, Palin seemed caught off-guard by a very predictable question about the status of McCain adviser Rick Davis’ relationship with mortgage lender Freddie Mac. Davis was accused by several news outlets of retaining ties - and profiting from - the companies despite his denials.
Where a more experienced politician might have been able to brush off Couric’s follow-up question, Palin seemed genuinely stumped, repeating the same answer twice and resorting to boilerplate language about the “undue influence of lobbyists.”
These missteps could be attributed to inadequate preparation and don’t necessarily reflect more deeply on Palin’s ability to perform as vice president. But when reporters have tried to probe Palin’s thinking on subjects such as foreign policy, she’s been similarly opaque.
In an interview with ABC’s Charlie Gibson, Palin gave a muddled answer to a question about her opinion of the Bush Doctrine.
And given the chance to describe her foreign policy credentials more fully, Palin recited familiar talking points, telling Gibson that her experience with energy policy was sufficient preparation for dealing with national security issues.
In the same interview, Palin let Gibson lead her into saying it might be necessary to wage war on Russia - a suggestion that most candidates would have avoided making explicitly and that signaled her discomfort in discussing global affairs.
Then, asked this week by Couric to discuss her knowledge of foreign relations - in particular, her assertion that Alaska’s proximity to Russia gave her international experience - Palin tripped herself up explaining her interactions with Alaska’s neighbor to the west.
Watch CBS Videos Online
On the economy, too, Palin has avoided taking clear stances. In a largely friendly interview with Fox News Channel’s Sean Hannity, Palin spoke in tangled generalities in response to a question about a possible Wall Street bailout - and even preempted her campaign by coming out against it.
On Thursday, Palin finally took questions from her traveling press - but shut things down quickly after Politico’s Kenneth P. Vogel asked her whether she would support Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens, who has been indicted for corruption, and Rep. Don Young, who is under federal investigation, for reelection.
Unlike her other interviews, at least this time Palin had the option to walk away.

[Archangel]

The fact that virtually everyone bitching about her had no intention of voting for the McCain ticket anyway means it was probably a decent choice. When actual conservatives or McCain backers on here start bitching about her, then I'll be concerned.
I personally have no problem with her and absolutely feel she is a better choice than a lot of the people McCain was contemplating. I still haven't decided whether I am voting McCain in November, although her selection has definitely made me lean more that way. It would probably be a combination of how bad Obama would be with how tolerable McCain would be. Palin makes McCain slightly more tolerable.

Um, the actual conservatives are saying stuff like "Iraq was the most successful military operation in history" or "I voted for Bush twice, and have no regrets", so I'm not giving much weight to their opinion. Hell, as long as it stood up for "family values" and told everybody that the other guy would raise their taxes, many conservatives would sing the praises of a moose as VP candidate.

[Yelram]

Um, the actual conservatives are saying stuff like "Iraq was the most successful military operation in history" or "I voted for Bush twice, and have no regrets", so I'm not giving much weight to their opinion. Hell, as long as it stood up for "family values" and told everybody that the other guy would raise their taxes, many conservatives would sing the praises of a moose as VP candidate.
Please show me why the Iraq war ISNT one of the most successful military campaigns in history. Before you start running your mouth.

[Deadhead Derek]

because there was no reason to engage in it. no uranium, no wmd's nothing going on. period. and we have sent America's finest into harms way 'cause sadaam tried to kill my daddy'

[dadaelus]

The fact that virtually everyone bitching about her had no intention of voting for the McCain ticket anyway means it was probably a decent choice. When actual conservatives or McCain backers on here start bitching about her, then I'll be concerned.
I personally have no problem with her and absolutely feel she is a better choice than a lot of the people McCain was contemplating. I still haven't decided whether I am voting McCain in November, although her selection has definitely made me lean more that way. It would probably be a combination of how bad Obama would be with how tolerable McCain would be. Palin makes McCain slightly more tolerable.

My vote for McCain hinged on his choice of running mate. There had been some chatter about how the various leaders of the social conservative movement were demanding one of their own and that a number of the people on McCain's short list did not meet their standards. I had hoped that McCain would have told them to pound sand and select a running mate that could appeal to a broader base of fiscal conservatives and independents, who would help shore up up his domestic and economic credentials, and would be seen as someone that could smoothly step in as President should McCain die. I don't see where I got any of those with Palin.

[Yelram]

because there was no reason to engage in it. no uranium, no wmd's nothing going on. period. and we have sent America's finest into harms way 'cause sadaam tried to kill my daddy'
If you seriously believe that, you are a complete and total idiot. We propped up Saddams regime, didnt remove him when we had the chance, and had AS A COUNTRY called for regime change for 10 years before. 16 UN resolutions, and WE DID FIND WMDS, different precursor biological agents, and YELLOW CAKE.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/
Why we got into the war is a question to ask CONGRESS, BOTH SIDES OF THE ISLE. And maybe a more important question is HOW DO YOU GO FROM SUPPORTING A WAR, TO BEING AGAINST IT IN LESS THAN A YEAR!!!!
I'm sure it wasnt politically motivated though right? Did Germany ever attack us in WWII? What about the Bosnians in the 90s? The question wasnt "prove to me that preemptive war is a good idea", it was "Show me why Iraq isnt one of the most successful military campaigns in the history of the modern world"

[Hanover Fist]

My vote for McCain hinged on his choice of running mate. There had been some chatter about how the various leaders of the social conservative movement were demanding one of their own and that a number of the people on McCain's short list did not meet their standards. I had hoped that McCain would have told them to pound sand and select a running mate that could appeal to a broader base of fiscal conservatives and independents, who would help shore up up his domestic and economic credentials, and would be seen as someone that could smoothly step in as President should McCain die. I don't see where I got any of those with Palin.

If you were basing your vote for McCain on his choice of running mate then you could not have been too sold on McCain to begin with. If someone I truly liked were running for President, like Romney, I could not have cared less who he picked as his running mate. The fact that McCain picked Palin has just the opposite effect for me, it makes me more likely to vote for the man.

[TheImpossibleMan]

You guys aren't seriously excited to think that Palin might run the country, are you?

[Axel]

Yelram, you have serious problems with perception of reality.

***

Palin is so much out of her league, that she shouldn’t even be an issue anymore: the real issue should be McCain decision-making ability - for picking her.

[dadaelus]

If you were basing your vote for McCain on his choice of running mate then you could not have been too sold on McCain to begin with. If someone I truly liked were running for President, like Romney, I could not have cared less who he picked as his running mate. The fact that McCain picked Palin has just the opposite effect for me, it makes me more likely to vote for the man.

I am never sold on an individual where a team matters. If I had my druthers I would require that all candidates post their shortlist for all cabinet positions when they make their VP selection. I think that the idea of the VP being a political appendage, there only in case of ties or emergencies, is outdated. Why should I not demand that the ticket be the two best people possible?

[Yelram]

Yelram, you have serious problems with perception of reality.

***

Palin is so much out of her league, that she shouldn’t even be an issue anymore: the real issue should be McCain decision-making ability - for picking her.


Oh its good to see you WONT FUCKING BE VOTING. I dont even know what country you are located in, but why dont you go get your dirty dick beater involved in your own countries politics? I suppose being the Governor of Alaska is just so easy any shmuck could do it with a 90% approval rating right?

[zaphrodesiac]

It's not like VP's ever do anything anyways, so I don't get the whole "terrified" feeling. The concern needs to be centered on McCain and all the fucked up shit he's gonna pass. Like Palin isn't more qualified than Obama anyways for the record.

[TheImpossibleMan]

It's not like VP's ever do anything anyways, so I don't get the whole "terrified" feeling. The concern needs to be centered on McCain and all the fucked up shit he's gonna pass. Like Palin isn't more qualified than Obama anyways for the record.
Statistically speaking, McCain is expected to die within the next five to eight years, meaning that, statisically speaking, his VP choice is expected to be the president. Palin is a joke and the idea of her running the country is terrifying.

[Yelram]

It's not like VP's ever do anything anyways, so I don't get the whole "terrified" feeling. The concern needs to be centered on McCain and all the fucked up shit he's gonna pass. Like Palin isn't more qualified than Obama anyways for the record.

Oh but she's an "evil" republican. I swear the Dems cant come up with anything better than "evil fundamentalist christian OOOoooOOooo" BE AFRAID, VOTE OBAMA!!.

[Genius]

she has accomplished quite a bit, and all on her own. She would have a cabinet of experts to guide her, and even if she became veep and God forbid something happened to McCain, all a president does anyway is set the white house agenda--which congress can decide to screw up anyway. Everyone agrees she is smart. experience comes from DOING. My bet is she would be up for the job much more than dan qualye was.
The fact that this comment even needs to be made is terrifying indeed.

[Yelram]

Statistically speaking, McCain is expected to die within the next five to eight years, meaning that, statisically speaking, his VP choice is expected to be the president. Palin is a joke and the idea of her running the country is terrifying.

Bidens been "running" the country for 30 years, and look where we're at, you think he'd do much better?

[Hanover Fist]

Statistically speaking, McCain is expected to die within the next five to eight years, meaning that, statisically speaking, his VP choice is expected to be the president. Palin is a joke and the idea of her running the country is terrifying.

Presidential terms are 4 years at a time, maybe since he is predicted to die within the next 5-8 we should worry about that for the 2012 campaign when he is up for reelection.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Much in the way I would rather have McCain running the country over Biden, I would rather have Biden running the country over Palin.

[Axel]

Oh its good to see you WONT FUCKING BE VOTING. I dont even know what country you are located in, but why dont you go get your dirty dick beater involved in your own countries politics? I suppose being the Governor of Alaska is just so easy any shmuck could do it with a 90% approval rating right?Let me explain you, Yelram: we suppose to express our opinions about Mrs. Palin in this thread, not to vote or discuss about “the most successful military campaign in the history”.

I won’t try to refute your delusional babbling – that would be a waste of anyone’s time.

[heelsguy]

give me someone who is inexperienced in foreign matters, but smart, determined, and a winner and I will take that anyday. at least she has been in charge of something. Governor of a state just like Bill Clinton was.. and his was of a state that ranked at the bottom of nearly every ranking with the exception of "least amount of teeth per adult"

[Genius]

give me someone who is inexperienced in foreign matters, but smart, determined, and a winner and I will take that anyday. at least she has been in charge of something. Governor of a state just like Bill Clinton was.. and his was of a state that ranked at the bottom of nearly every ranking with the exception of "least amount of teeth per adult"
And yet it still managed to have over three times the population of Alaska. I've been in charge of five fantasy football leagues. How do my qualifications compare?

[TheImpossibleMan]

give me someone who is inexperienced, but smart, determined, and a winner and will take that anyday. at least she has been in charge of something. Governor of a state just like Bill Clinton was.. and his was of a state that ranked at the bottom of nearly every ranking with the exception of "least amount of teeth per adult"
What does that even mean...? 'A winner'?

As for running Alaska, good God man you can't seriously think she's qualified to run the country? I'd understand if you thought she showed great vision, but she's been so utterly sheltered we never really get to know her. Her only appearance has been an awkward, poor interview with Katie Couric. She is a very poor speaker and has zero experience. People try to hammer Obama on experience but he has far more than Palin and, beyond that, has shown extreme astuteness and understanding of the political atmosphere (in correctly predicting how the Iraq war would play out back in 2002) and vision (numerous examples, but I was blown away when he discussed the 'bitterness on both sides' in regards to race and things like affirmative action). I can't believe people are actually delighted with the choice of Palin, I can understand not thinking she's horrible (though I disagree) but to think she's great? Really?

[TheImpossibleMan]

give me someone who is inexperienced in foreign matters, but smart, determined, and a winner and I will take that anyday. at least she has been in charge of something. Governor of a state just like Bill Clinton was.. and his was of a state that ranked at the bottom of nearly every ranking with the exception of "least amount of teeth per adult"
So is McCain not qualified since he's just a senator and 'has never been in charge of anything'?

[TheImpossibleMan]

Presidential terms are 4 years at a time, maybe since he is predicted to die within the next 5-8 we should worry about that for the 2012 campaign when he is up for reelection.
Right, because nothing bad ever happens, so its okay for McCain to put the interests of his campaign over the interests of the country. The VP's only real job is to be able to step in if/when the president is dead/incapacitated, and Palin is not ready to do that. Suerly you're not so delusional that you really think Palin would make a good president?

[heelsguy]

What does that even mean...? 'A winner'?

As for running Alaska, good God man you can't seriously think she's qualified to run the country? I'd understand if you thought she showed great vision, but she's been so utterly sheltered we never really get to know her. Her only appearance has been an awkward, poor interview with Katie Couric. She is a very poor speaker and has zero experience. People try to hammer Obama on experience but he has far more than Palin and, beyond that, has shown extreme astuteness and understanding of the political atmosphere (in correctly predicting how the Iraq war would play out back in 2002) and vision (numerous examples, but I was blown away when he discussed the 'bitterness on both sides' in regards to race and things like affirmative action). I can't believe people are actually delighted with the choice of Palin, I can understand not thinking she's horrible (though I disagree) but to think she's great? Really?

it means exactly what you think it means. She won election as mayor. then she beat out the incumbent to become governor. she is smart enough and poltically-savvy enough to do fine. and, she is a poor speaker? are you kidding me? I'll tell you who is a poor speaker: Biden. Have you listened to him give a stump speech? and this is considering he has 30 years of experience doing that.

and of course arkansas has 3 times as many people as alaska...imbreeding will do that

[smith42687]

Why isn't horny an option?

[TheImpossibleMan]

it means exactly what you think it means. She won election as mayor. then she beat out the incumbent to become governor. she is smart enough and poltically-savvy enough to do fine. and, she is a poor speaker? are you kidding me? I'll tell you who is a poor speaker: Biden. Have you listened to him give a stump speech? and this is considering he has 30 years of experience doing that.

and of course arkansas has 3 times as many people as alaska...imbreeding will do that
Er, all four people on the tickets have won elections, that's why they're here; Palin has won far fewer political elections compared to the others, though.

[heelsguy]

Er, all four people on the tickets have won elections, that's why they're here; Palin has won far fewer political elections compared to the others, though.


only Palin has won an election to be solely responsible for something. not just one of 2 senators who represent their state. my point

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

she has accomplished quite a bit, and all on her own. She would have a cabinet of experts to guide her, and even if she became veep and God forbid something happened to McCain, all a president does anyway is set the white house agenda--which congress can decide to screw up anyway. Everyone agrees she is smart. experience comes from DOING. My bet is she would be up for the job much more than dan qualye was.

Thank you!

and Hanover...you're right. None of these jackoff's were voting for McCain anyway, but they can't stop talking about her?? Maybe that's to take some of the spotlight off the fact that the guy running for president on the dem ticket hasn't done a fucking thing in his life to warrant him getting elected to the most important position on this planet.

[Pharon]

The fact that virtually everyone bitching about her had no intention of voting for the McCain ticket anyway means it was probably a decent choice.
If McCain had chosen Romney as his running mate, it's a pretty good bet I would have voted for that ticket. McCain alone vs. Obama, I leaned toward the latter. Now that McCain has Palin, there's no way in hell I'd ever consider voting for them. Grossly irresponsible doesn't even begin to describe this lapse in judgment on his part.

When actual conservatives or McCain backers on here start bitching about her, then I'll be concerned.
Are you kidding me? There are PLENTY of actual conservatives who are absolutely livid about this pick -- David Brooks, Kathleen Parker, David Frum, Charles Krauthammer, Ross Douthat -- just to name a few. She definitely hurts him more than she helps him, and it's clear that they're in panic mode right now -- why else would they shield her from the media like they are? Unprecedented, and transparent damage control is abound. Any idiot can see that.

I personally have no problem with her and absolutely feel she is a better choice than a lot of the people McCain was contemplating. I still haven't decided whether I am voting McCain in November, although her selection has definitely made me lean more that way. It would probably be a combination of how bad Obama would be with how tolerable McCain would be. Palin makes McCain slightly more tolerable.
This statement is absolutely unbelievable to me. There are so many better choices McCain could have made, even among Republican females (since gender seems to have been an important factor to him). How anyone could come to the conclusion that Palin is anything but a huge liability to Mccain is beyond my comprehension.

It's not like VP's ever do anything anyways, so I don't get the whole "terrified" feeling. The concern needs to be centered on McCain and all the fucked up shit he's gonna pass. Like Palin isn't more qualified than Obama anyways for the record.
Anyone who actually watched the debate two nights ago and still comes to the conclusion that Palin is more qualified than Obama to be President needs to have their head examined.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

As for running Alaska, good God man you can't seriously think she's qualified to run the country?

Please list Obama's qualifications. Looking and sounding suave in front of the camera's doesn't count.

I'm waiting....

[Archangel]

Palin's experience as governor of Alaska qualifies her to be on the world stage about as much as her success in HS basketball in Alaska qualifies her to be the starting point guard for the Washington Wizards.

[eleveneighteen]

i cant have one geezers heartbeat between palin and the presidency.



Classic!

[Rover]

Statistically speaking, McCain is expected to die within the next five to eight years, meaning that, statisically speaking, his VP choice is expected to be the president. Palin is a joke and the idea of her running the country is terrifying.Statistically speaking, Obama is more likely to commit a violent crime and be incarcerated for the next 10-20 years.

She is a very poor speaker and has zero experience. People try to hammer Obama on experience but he has far more than Palin and...I don't consider "running for President" to be experience to qualify you for the position.

Er, all four people on the tickets have won elections, that's why they're here; Palin has won far fewer political elections compared to the others, though.Let's see...2 for city council; 2 for mayor; 1 for governor. That's 5.

3 for state senate; 1 for Senate. That's 4.

In all 4 of Obama's (that he won, he lost a primary for Congress), he faced no opposition. He has never faced a legitimate GOP challenge until McCain. He's never even faced Democratic opposition, since in his first election he got every one of his challengers thrown off the ballot. Politics of change, indeed.

[Archangel]

Please list Obama's qualifications. Looking and sounding suave in front of the camera's doesn't count.

I'm waiting....

Having seen the rest of the world, for one. If you're gonna make, or help shape, policy decisions which affect the rest of the world, knowing which language the people of a given country speak helps.

I doubt Mrs Palin knows which form of government Japan has.

[Hanover Fist]

Are you kidding me? There are PLENTY of actual conservatives who are absolutely livid about this pick -- David Brooks, Kathleen Parker, David Frum, Charles Krauthammer, Ross Douthat -- just to name a few. She definitely hurts him more than she helps him, and it's clear that they're in panic mode right now -- why else would they shield her from the media like they are? Unprecedented, and transparent damage control is abound. Any idiot can see that.


That's why I stated on HERE. I haven't seen any of the GMF conservatives saying this was a horrible pick. Lieberman or Ridge would have been horrible picks, this was not a horrible pick. It may ultimately turn out to not be a winning pick, but it was far from a horrible pick.
I go to a lot of conservative leaning websites and almost every one of them the majority are still very pleased that McCain selected her. If there is panic then it isn't really showing from what I see. Sure you're never going to please everyone.
The fact that everyone is concentrating on her instead of McCain is brilliant, McCains been getting a free run almost since the day he selected her.
If McCain loses it won't be because of his VP pick, it will be because people feel Obama is a better choice to lead the country than he is.

[Pharon]

That's why I stated on HERE.
Oh, missed that part -- my bad.

I still completely disagree with you, though. Any chance McCain had at beating Obama went out the window once he chose Palin. I'm convinced of that.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Statistically speaking, Obama is more likely to commit a violent crime and be incarcerated for the next 10-20 years.Dude, I get it, you hate *******, you don't have to restate it all the time.

I don't consider "running for President" to be experience to qualify you for the position.

Let's see...2 for city council; 2 for mayor; 1 for governor. That's 5.

3 for state senate; 1 for Senate. That's 4.

In all 4 of Obama's (that he won, he lost a primary for Congress), he faced no opposition. He has never faced a legitimate GOP challenge until McCain. He's never even faced Democratic opposition, since in his first election he got every one of his challengers thrown off the ballot. Politics of change, indeed.
LOOOOOOOOL

Hillary Clinton and John Edwards are more popular, well-funded, and political savvy than anyone Sarah Palin ever has or likely ever will face in an election.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Having seen the rest of the world, for one. If you're gonna make, or help shape, policy decisions which affect the rest of the world, knowing which language the people of a given country speak helps.

I doubt Mrs Palin knows which form of government Japan has.

In my business dealings, and personal vacations, I've visited 23 different countries in my 44 years.

Guess I should be on the ticket.

FAIL...try again.

[Archangel]

In my business dealings, and personal vacations, I've visited 23 different countries in my 44 years.

Guess I should be on the ticket.

FAIL...try again.

Did you speak really slowly and loudly to the natives when asking for directions to the nearest McDonald's?

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

Did you speak really slowly and loudly to the natives when asking for directions to the nearest McDonald's?

In all honesty Arch...there is really no need to prove your lack of intelligence with that response. We all know you're a fucking idiot.

Carry on...

[Archangel]

In all honesty Arch...there is really no need to prove your lack of intelligence with that response. We all know you're a fucking idiot.

Carry on...

Funniest. Post. Ever.



Sig'd.

[fuldstændigamok]

In my business dealings, and personal vacations, I've visited 23 different countries in my 44 years.

Guess I should be on the ticket.

FAIL...try again.

FAN-FUCKING-TASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Im sure that you manage to say hello in,...oh at least 2 languages. You dumbfuck deadhead moron idiot.

[heelsguy]

so fuld thinks I am an example of why "the world" thinks american's are simpletons? neg away napoleon

ha ha

I really could not care less what a fucking frenchman or anyone else thinks. I stated my opinion. state yours, fuld.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Negging is gay if you just disagree with someone. If the guy is being a douche or did something stupid, neg away. But most of all, fuck all of you faggots.

[Archangel]

It says all you need to know about Americans such as case_sensitive that they feel the need to brag about having actually been to other countries. What do you want, a cookie?

[BIG PIZZLE]

This chick is a sinking ship.

[Hanover Fist]

This chick is a sinking ship.

In that case, I'd go down on her.

[heelsguy]

The question was "how do you feel about the thought of palin being VP?" and I gave my opinion. seriously admins who neg legitimate posts because they disagree should themselves be fucking banned.

[BIG PIZZLE]

In that case, I'd go down on her.

Looks like you're going down with her.

[bpb]

It says all you need to know about Americans such as case_sensitive that they feel the need to brag about having actually been to other countries. What do you want, a cookie?

Oooh, oooh. I've been to other countries too. I want a cookie. Can you make it a peanut butter cookie? Thanks.

[fuldstændigamok]

so fuld thinks I am an example of why "the world" thinks american's are simpletons? neg away napoleon

ha ha

I really could not care less what a fucking frenchman or anyone else thinks. I stated my opinion. state yours, fuld.

State mine, or just post your neg? Because that will just show how insightfull you are, and prove me right about you at the same time.

[Pharon]

State mine, or just post your neg?
I think I speak for all of us when I say do both, plz.

[heelsguy]

State mine, or just post your neg? Because that will just show how insightfull you are, and prove me right about you at the same time.

what the fuck? I did not even neg you..I just called you a fucking faggot frenchman while giving you the rep you worship.

you fucking faggot. start shit and then act like the offended party.

go to hell

[fuldstændigamok]

The question was "how do you feel about the thought of palin being VP?" and I gave my opinion. seriously admins who neg legitimate posts because they disagree should themselves be fucking banned.

Heh. Yeah, sure....
Here

[fuldstændigamok]

what the fuck? I did not even neg you..I just called you a fucking faggot frenchman while giving you the rep you worship.

you fucking faggot. start shit and then act like the offended party.

go to hell

seriously: get a life if you think I give a good goddamn what you think. you are a reason people hate frenchmen, faggot

Classic idiot answer.
As for the rep, sorry, I couldn\t know, it was a grey dot.

[Archangel]

Oooh, oooh. I've been to other countries too. I want a cookie. Can you make it a peanut butter cookie? Thanks.

Oatmeal raisin's the only kind I've got left, sorry.

[Axel]

It says all you need to know about Americans such as case_sensitive that they feel the need to brag about having actually been to other countries. What do you want, a cookie?Hey, that's a big deal!

Ms. Palin appears to have traveled very little outside the United States. In July 2007, she had to get a passport before she visited members of the Alaska National Guard stationed in Kuwait, according to her deputy communications director, Sharon Leighow.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/us/politics/30veep.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Hanover Fist]

Yeah but if I wanted to get a feel for the rest of the world, I wouldn't need a passport either. I could visit any slum in the US and imagine all the signs in a foreign language and the people smelling worse. Presto, I'm in 95% of the countries of the world.

[Pharon]

She did say she visited Canada and Mexico, though. I'm pretty sure those places aren't in the United States anymore.

[heelsguy]

Classic idiot answer.
As for the rep, sorry, I couldn\t know, it was a grey dot.


NEG: Its people like you that makes the world think that americans are total and complete simpleton

again, you started this shithead. next time just post your disagreement with me and don't neg like a 15 yr old pussy

[bpb]

Oatmeal raisin's the only kind I've got left, sorry.

Ahhh, poo.

[Archangel]

Can you imagine any other country picking some hick out of some god-forsaken backwater jerkhole to run for the second biggest job in the government?


Wait, Britain elected a Welsh PM.

[Archangel]

Yeah but if I wanted to get a feel for the rest of the world, I wouldn't need a passport either. I could visit any slum in the US and imagine all the signs in a foreign language and the people smelling worse. Presto, I'm in 95% of the countries of the world.

Yes, because all other places outside the US are in the third world. As a matter of fact, I have to go scrounging for food now.

[heelsguy]

She did say she visited Canada and Mexico, though. I'm pretty sure those places aren't in the United States anymore.
who cares if she visited the world or not? a 22 yr old can backpack europe, but so what? unlike Obama, she was not planning every single move she made because she was being pushed up the political machine of chicago. she was just moved to run for mayor.

obama admitted to using cocaine. so what?

[Pharon]

Honestly, I care far more about her failure to grasp most of the issues than whether or not she took her top off in Nice.

Then again...

[fuldstændigamok]

again, you started this shithead. next time just post your disagreement with me and don't neg like a 15 yr old pussy

Yeah? What about no? And I havent started any shithead at all, shithead!

[Archangel]

who cares if she visited the world or not?

The rest of the world.

Especially the parts she might suggest be bombed.

[fuldstændigamok]

Yes, because all other places ouside the US are in the third world. As a matter of fact, I have to go scrounging for food now.

Youre german. All you can get nowadays is kebab. Or so you want us to believe. :)

[Axel]

Yeah but if I wanted to get a feel for the rest of the world, I wouldn't need a passport either. I could visit any slum in the US and imagine all the signs in a foreign language and the people smelling worse. Presto, I'm in 95% of the countries of the world.Of course you're right. But than again, I don't think Ms. Palin has even visited any slum in the US as well.

She did say she visited Canada and Mexico, though. I'm pretty sure those places aren't in the United States anymore.Maybe after July 2007. Before than, only if you can visit Canada and Mexico without a passport - well, can you?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/us...=1&oref=slogin (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/us/politics/30veep.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)

[Archangel]

Youre german. All you can get nowadays is kebab. Or so you want us to believe. :)

Hell no.


There's shawarma, and falafel, and lahmacun, and köfte, and tekke...

[Archangel]

Of curse you're right. But than again, I don't think Ms. Palin has even visited any slum in the US as well.


That said, I'm not sure I'd rather not live in Chicago's Southside than in fucking Alaska.

[freegood]

They do pay you to live in Alaska. "Reform minded" socialism in a red state rocks!

[Hanover Fist]

Maybe after July 2007. Before than, only if you can visit Canada and Mexico without a passport - well, can you?


If you take your private vehicle into Canada you still don't need a passport. You only need one if you take a plane or train I believe.

[Axel]

If you take your private vehicle into Canada you still don't need a passport. You only need one if you take a plane or train I believe.But you never tried that, right?

[Hanover Fist]

But you never tried that, right?

I've driven to Canada and didn't need a passport. I've never flown or taken a train there so I'm not sure if they even require a passport for that yet or not.

[Pharon]

I took a train to Canada once, but it was my own private train, so they didn't require me to have a passport.

[fuldstændigamok]

But you never tried that, right?

You mean going out of his state? Are you mad?

[fuldstændigamok]

And yeah, Before you go on a tantrum, I know that you have been travelling the world on a shiny boat.

[Archangel]

I took a train to Canada once, but it was my own private train, so they didn't require me to have a passport.

Lord Mountbatten? That you?

[Axel]

As well as I know, Canada doesn't require a passport for US citizens arriving by plane to Canada, however, the US does require a passport to get back in.

[Hanover Fist]

Lord Mountbatten? That you?


I was thinking more along the lines of Kim Jung-Il

[fuldstændigamok]

As well as I know, Canada technically does not require a passport for US citizens arriving by plane to Canada, however, the US does require a passport to get back in.

People wants to go back in???

[Archangel]

Oh, and Yelram has told me that I've never been to the US. I distinctly remember living at 680 N Lake Shore Drive in Chicago, but if Yelram says that I've never been, it must be a hallucination.

[Pharon]

Oh, and Yelram has told me that I've never been to the US. I distinctly remember living at 680 N Lake Shore Drive in Chicago, but if Yelram says that I've never been, it must be a hallucination.
We all know you're a fucking idiot.

[Archangel]

I wonder who those "all" are.

[Mustard]

Wow, this thread has really taken off!

Unfortunatlely its been more like an experimental V2 rocket...

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

FAN-FUCKING-TASTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Im sure that you manage to say hello in,...oh at least 2 languages. You dumbfuck deadhead moron idiot.

Listen, you Parisian Pussy, stick to what you know....turning tail and running like a yellow dog, negative repping people who if they actually ran across you would kick the shit outta you, and sucking Arch's dick.

You're like a child and a bitchy female all rolled into one......you should be seen and not heard from.

[kid_vidrio]

Listen, you Parisian Pussy, stick to what you know....turning tail and running like a yellow dog, negative repping people who if they actually ran across you would kick the shit outta you, and sucking Arch's dick.

You're like a child and a bitchy female all rolled into one......you should be seen and not heard from.
Dude. You're not doing anything positive for the image of people over 40.
Go put on a fresh depends and smoke a little attitude adjuster.

[Claydon]

The rest of the world.

Especially the parts she might suggest be bombed.

Ummmm, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, secretary of the Army, Navy, and the airforce had never been to afghanistan and they bombed it?

Beyond that, I am not a big supporter of Palin, however people often forget how massive the US is, and quite frankly I have been to Canada several times and throughout Mexico and until recently you did not need a passport. Just your state issued ID and a birth certificate and that was all. In fact that is a program now where you can get a Federal ID card so you can easily go through the border checkpoints. This isn't fucking europe where if you fart, it can be heard and smelled in 18 countries.

[heelsguy]

Ummmm, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, secretary of the Army, Navy, and the airforce had never been to afghanistan and they bombed it?

Beyond that, I am not a big supporter of Palin, however people often forget how massive the US is, and quite frankly I have been to Canada several times and throughout Mexico and until recently you did not need a passport. Just your state issued ID and a birth certificate and that was all. In fact that is a program now where you can get a Federal ID card so you can easily go through the border checkpoints. This isn't fucking europe where if you fart, it can be heard and smelled in 18 countries.
LMFAO

[Archangel]

Yeah, fuck cultural diversity.

[Claydon]

Yeah, fuck cultural diversity.

If you have been to the US, then you would know that the US is probably one of the most culturally diverse countries in the world.

[heelsguy]

If you have been to the US, then you would know that the US is probably one of the most culturally diverse countries in the world.

a regular melting pot we are.

one reason we are the greatest. not as much inbreeding (except arkansas)

[Archangel]

If you have been to the US, then you would know that the US is probably one of the most culturally diverse countries in the world.

Yeah, there's some stuff in the East, some stuff near the Great Lakes, some stuff near the Gulf, some stuff in the West, and a whole lot of nothing in between.

[Archangel]

a regular melting pot we are.

one reason we are the greatest. not as much inbreeding (except arkansas)

Did an American just lecture Europeans on inbreeding?


Mate, people have been intermingling along the Rhine for 3,000 fucking years.

[Don Scrappy]

McCain could have picked anyone else for VP and I would be much happier about voting for him.

[Claydon]

Yeah, there's some stuff in the East, some stuff near the Great Lakes, some stuff near the Gulf, some stuff in the West, and a whole lot of nothing in between.

Well, the US is the largest supplier of corn and wheat to the world. It has to grow somewhere.

[Archangel]

God help us all if McCain gets elected and croaks.


Palin is liable to bomb Bandar Aceh because she got it mixed up with Bandar Abbas, and burn books because her retard version of Jesus told her to.

[Archangel]

Well, the US is the largest supplier of corn and wheat to the world. It has to grow somewhere.

Doesn't change the fact that I can find more cultural diversity in 300 miles of Europe than in 3000 miles of US.

[nuclearjew]

Doesn't change the fact that I can find more cultural diversity in 300 miles of Europe than in 3000 miles of US.
I'm sure Europe has plenty of stupid fucking rednecks too.

[Archangel]

I'm sure Europe has plenty of stupid fucking rednecks too.

Yeah, they're called Muslims.


Seriously though, of course we do. But the fact is that we're a far more urbanised society. Our peasants are just as dumb as yours, it's just that we have far fewer of them.

[Claydon]

Doesn't change the fact that I can find more cultural diversity in 300 miles of Europe than in 3000 miles of US.

And I can find more cultural diversity in 25 miles of Los Angeles City/County than in 300 miles of Europe.

[Archangel]

Btw, Nuke, wasn't it you who posted that story about those Brits on a bus, and the rednecks who were shocked to learn that there were cities called Birmingham outside of Alabama?

[Archangel]

And I can find more cultural diversity in 25 miles of Los Angeles City/County than in 300 miles of Europe.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


BWAHAHAHA.


HAHAHAHA.


HAHAHA.




Seriously, you're a fucking idiot.

[nuclearjew]

Yeah, they're called Muslims.

Seriously though, of course we do. But the fact is that we're a far more urbanised society. Our peasants are just as dumb as yours, it's just that we have far fewer of them.
I wouldn't say you're more urbanized so much as you are more geographically compact and have had about what, a thousand more years to build up your societies. The coasts are pretty damn urbanized but yes, the midwest is an empty void of suckitude.

[nuclearjew]

Btw, Nuke, wasn't it you who posted that story about those Brits on a bus, and the rednecks who were shocked to learn that there were cities called Birmingham outside of Alabama?
Yes, but there were also Brits on that bus. It amazed me how multi-cultural NYC is. Chances are someone on the street next to you has English as a second language.

[Archangel]

I wouldn't say you're more urbanized so much as you are more geographically compact and have had about what, a thousand more years to build up your societies. The coasts are pretty damn urbanized but yes, the midwest is an empty void of suckitude.


Yeah, two hours out of Chicago, and I was contemplating suicide.

[Archangel]

Yes, but there were also Brits on that bus. It amazed me how multi-cultural NYC is. Chances are someone on the street next to you has English as a second language.

Yeah, but how is that different to Paris, London, Rome, or Berlin?

[nuclearjew]

Yeah, but how is that different to Paris, London, Rome, or Berlin?
It's not but you're acting like there are no cultural centers in America. Even little old Corvallis has a few hundred foreign exchange students enrolled at school here. I know that's not a lot, but it's encouraging to see other cultures interested in studying here.

[Archangel]

It's not but you're acting like there are no cultural centers in America.

No I'm not. Your museums, art institutes, orchestras and many of your universities are among the finest, if not the best, in the world. Many of your fine great cities produce cosmopolitan, worldly citizens.

Nobody's denying that. It's just that there is a flip side to that particular coin, and it ain't pretty.

Even little old Corvallis has a few hundred foreign exchange students enrolled at school here. I know that's not a lot, but it's encouraging to see other cultures interested in studying here.

Hey, I know. I met French students in fucking Madison, WI.

I'm just amused by Claydon's comment about how LA County is culturally richer than Central Europe. Dunno, but my definition of cultural diversity isn't going from a Korean dry cleaners to a Mexican restaurant in a cab driven by a Tajik.

[Archangel]

For the record, given half a chance, I'd move to NYC, Chicago or Nor Cal in a fucking heartbeat. The one place where I'd rather live is Milan.

[Archangel]

This is the problem.

When I say, as an admittedly quintessential arrogant European snob, that I think that Mrs Palin is an unlearned hick and that her ignorance might prove dangerous (if not fatal) on the world stage, people take it to mean that I think that Americans in general, or at least American politicians, are all just as stupid.

I can't repeat often enough how much I loved my time in the US and the people there, and on the subject of politics, Thomas Jefferson, in my opinion, is only equalled by M Tullius Cicero as a politician. And he's far from the only one.

The thing is, the fact that someone is a close friend of mine, or that I always have a great time at his place, or that I think that he's usually a great and clever bloke, DOES NOT mean that I can't tell him, as a friend, that he's acting dumb when he's drunk or stressed, or that the hat he's wearing is silly, or that his girlfriend is a stupid bitch. I'm not attacking his character, I'm just criticising a current state.

[Claydon]

I'm just amused by Claydon's comment about how LA County is culturally richer than Central Europe. Dunno, but my definition of cultural diversity isn't going from a Korean dry cleaners to a Mexican restaurant in a cab driven by a Tajik.


Really? you would choose nor cal over milan? huh.....

and yes, los angeles and so cal are EXTREMELY diverse, it is not all Housewives of the OC you know. 92 languges have been identified as the primary language of students in the Los Unified School District, one of many reasons why that system performs so poorly.

So yah...cuturally diverse. If you are refering to central europe being populated since the time of Rome, then YES, central europe wins hands down.

[Archangel]

Really? you would choose nor cal over milan? huh.....

and yes, los angeles and so cal are EXTREMELY diverse, it is not all Housewives of the OC you know. 92 languges have been identified as the primary language of students in the Los Unified School District, one of many reasons why that system performs so poorly.

So yah...cuturally diverse. If you are refering to central europe being populated since the time of Rome, then YES, central europe wins hands down.

I said that Milan is the place where I'd RATHER live than in Nor Cal.


And I've been to LA. I am aware of its ethnic diversity. But that alone is not a cultural diversity: To me, cultural diversity is having a gothic cathedral a few miles from a Palladio palace, or seeing a Flemish masterpiece adorn the walls of a Lower Saxony moated castle, not the fact that milions of immigrants live and have their businesses in a given town. The Cantor Art Centre's Rodin collection at Stanford, now that's culture right there.
There's a shitload of Arabs and Turks in my neighbourhood, but you won't hear me talk of all the cultures that come together here.

[Claydon]

I said that Milan is the place where I'd RATHER live than in Nor Cal.


And I've been to LA. I am aware of its ethnic diversity. But that alone is not a cultural diversity: To me, cultural diversity is having a gothic cathedral a few miles from a Palladio palace, or seeing a Flemish masterpiece adorn the walls of a Lower Saxony moated castle, not the fact that milions of immigrants live and have their businesses in a given town. The Cantor Art Centre's Rodin collection at Stanford, now that's culture right there.
There's a shitload of Arabs and Turks in my neighbourhood, but you won't hear me talk of all the cultures that come together here.


Yah but for the most part the various ethnic groups get along well (unless you are black or hispanic in which case you hate one another) and the intermingling of different styles of food, art, language makes for a very rich tapestry. I of course completely agree with you that yes you have 500 year old churches etc, and that is unique and special. I kind of thought about it for a moment and realized that is what you were pointing out as opposed to ethnic diversity giving rise to a rich cultural blend.

[Archangel]

500 years? Pfft, get out of here with those new-fangled post-gothic churches.

1000-1150 is where it's at (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speyer_Cathedral).

[Claydon]

500 years? Pfft, get out of here with those new-fangled post-gothic churches.

1000-1150 is where it's at (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speyer_Cathedral).

hmmmm, the Anasazi were pretty cool.

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/northamerica/anasazi.html

[Axel]

Let's get back to the topic

Now seriously (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Conventions/story?id=5718030)(again):

Calling herself "an average hockey mom," Palin joked, "You know what they say the difference is between a hockey mom and a pit bull? Lipstick! Did I get that right? Did she actually declare herself as a dumb, aggressive bitch without any compassion, yet taking care about her appearance? What the fuck was that? A lame joke or a self-criticism?

I really wonder what you, Americans, expect from your leaders: to be “one-of-us” or better than average? For instance, Dubya seems like an amusing dude I’d like to have a beer with, but… c’mon?

[Don Scrappy]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but her interview with Katie Couric was abysmal, especially her explanation of her foreign policy experience and anything relating to economics.

[Pollo]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but her interview with Katie Couric was abysmal, especially her explanation of her foreign policy experience and anything relating to economics.

maybe it was me, or perhaps she wanted to top her Charlie Gibson interview! all the criticism of the interview is in the 'VP Palin' thread.

I can't wait until the VP debate ... arguably the most anticipated VP debate in recent times?

[Smokestack]

Oh but she's an "evil" republican. I swear the Dems cant come up with anything better than "evil fundamentalist christian OOOoooOOooo" BE AFRAID, VOTE OBAMA!!.

"Evil"? Yeah, nimrod, that's the liberal attack line on her. What are you, Steve Schmidt's slow cousin? If you actually want a really good "evil" slur, check out redstate.com's online shop and get an Obama is the anti-christ sticker (http://www.cafepress.com/redstate.289722477) to stick on the shirt you put on backwards.

If you'd have been paying attention rather than making shit up, you'd know the takeaway from the Palin-Couric interview was that she was severely out of her depth, not that she's evil. On this weekend's SNL, some of the lines for Tina Fey's Sarah Palin were actually lifted directly from the real Sarah Palin's interview:

zeMypXCUWMw

[smahoo]

First, let me be clear that I support Obama in this election. I say that so the Yelrams and Claydons of this board can launch their attacks and label me a liberal.

The relevant issue is whether Palin is qualified for and can fulfill the duties of the office for which she has been nominated. So, what are those duties?

To quote wiki, they are:

The formal powers and role of the vice president are limited by the Constitution to becoming President should the President become unable to serve (e.g. due to the death, resignation, or medical impairment of the President) and acting as the presiding officer of the U.S. Senate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_Senate). As President of the Senate, the Vice President has two primary duties: to cast a vote in the event of a Senate deadlock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Vice_President%27s_tie-breaking_votes) and to preside over and certify the official vote count of the U.S. Electoral College.

In these specific matters, she meets the criteria. But its in the broader sense, the informal role of the Vice President where the concerns trully lie. They are:

The informal roles and functions of the Vice President depend on the specific relationship between the President and the Vice President, but often include drafter and spokesperson for the administration's policy, as an adviser to the president, as Chairman of the Board of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA)), as a Member of the board of the Smithsonian Institution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smithsonian_Institution), and as a symbol of American concern or support. The influence of the Vice President in this role depends almost entirely on the characteristics of the particular administration.

Often, Vice Presidents will take harder-line stands on issues to ensure the support of the party's base while deflecting partisan criticism away from the President.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Under the American system the President is both head of state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_of_state) and head of government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_of_government), and the ceremonial duties of the former position are often delegated to the Vice President. The Vice President may meet with other heads of state or attend state funerals in other countries, at times when the administration wishes to demonstrate concern or support but cannot send the President himself.

Clearly, Gov. Palin falls well short of being considered a viable adviser to the President should McCain be elected. This is not a role that should be filled by someone who would require a significant amount of OJT. The country's current state requires more than that. The VP must be able to be a policy influencer, a person that can cross party lines when things are tough and bring support to his/her own party. I can't imagine veteran Republicans looking to her for leadership in the Senate.

When members of her party openly express concern about her qualifications, when members of the conservative press opine that she's out of her league, how does that reflect on the man who chose her as his running mate?

Not well. McCain has committed a colossal blunder in his selection of her and his campaign is doing everything it can to keep her away from the press. For good reason, everytime she opens her mouth she proves how inept and unqualified she is.

Wake up America, the chances are high that McCain will have a grabber while in office (if elected). Is this who you want at the helm?? There are plenty of other reasons not to vote for McCain, but this has to be considered as well.

[dadaelus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanover Fist http://forum.gorillamask.net/images/solido/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.gorillamask.net/showthread.php?p=143218#post143218)
The fact that virtually everyone bitching about her had no intention of voting for the McCain ticket anyway means it was probably a decent choice. When actual conservatives or McCain backers on here start bitching about her, then I'll be concerned.
I personally have no problem with her and absolutely feel she is a better choice than a lot of the people McCain was contemplating. I still haven't decided whether I am voting McCain in November, although her selection has definitely made me lean more that way. It would probably be a combination of how bad Obama would be with how tolerable McCain would be. Palin makes McCain slightly more tolerable.

Originally Posted by dadaelus
My vote for McCain hinged on his choice of running mate. There had been some chatter about how the various leaders of the social conservative movement were demanding one of their own and that a number of the people on McCain's short list did not meet their standards. I had hoped that McCain would have told them to pound sand and select a running mate that could appeal to a broader base of fiscal conservatives and independents, who would help shore up up his domestic and economic credentials, and would be seen as someone that could smoothly step in as President should McCain die. I don't see where I got any of those with Palin.
---
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanover Fist http://forum.gorillamask.net/images/solido/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.gorillamask.net/showthread.php?p=143409#post143409)
If you were basing your vote for McCain on his choice of running mate then you could not have been too sold on McCain to begin with. If someone I truly liked were running for President, like Romney, I could not have cared less who he picked as his running mate. The fact that McCain picked Palin has just the opposite effect for me, it makes me more likely to vote for the man.

Originally Posted by dadaelus
I am never sold on an individual where a team matters. If I had my druthers I would require that all candidates post their shortlist for all cabinet positions when they make their VP selection. I think that the idea of the VP being a political appendage, there only in case of ties or emergencies, is outdated. Why should I not demand that the ticket be the two best people possible?

[Tar Heel]

Oh but she's an "evil" republican. I swear the Dems cant come up with anything better than "evil fundamentalist christian OOOoooOOooo" BE AFRAID, VOTE OBAMA!!.


Well... to be fair, the pubs used the "be afraid" method to perfection in 2000 and 2004.

[smith42687]

I was serious, can we update the poll to include horny? Because I have no interest in her otherwise.

[ElvisWong]

Palin .... is not serious. She has no experience....why not no matter who.... Maybe a cheerleaders can do the job...

[slore]

Why dont we hire a semen encrusted blow up doll accessorized with some overpriced
frames that appeal to mentally retarded ( perhaps they sense a kinship with diver down or 1984 or panama or whatever the chromosonally challenged monkeys name is) housewives of suburbia. A hollow plastic shell would be better for America. We've been fucked by an empty plastic plastic dildo for 8 years. Surprised the cylinder was never compromised considering the flaccid state of the shaft.

[WET HOT MESS]

I cringed a lot in her interview with Couric. NEVER, even though I'm like only 20, but seriously NEVER have I been so .... *exasperated* *sigh* I jumped and cringed more watching that interview than I ever did watching all those horror/suspense movies. It was horribly traumatic.

[freegood]

Pops and Palin tell Couric not to bully Sarah at pizza place.
9RywhPtebuM

CBS link (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4487886n)

[Pharon]

I cringed a lot in her interview with Couric. NEVER, even though I'm like only 20, but seriously NEVER have I been so .... *exasperated* *sigh* I jumped and cringed more watching that interview than I ever did watching all those horror/suspense movies. It was horribly traumatic.
Don't ever do that again. Next time, just masturbate. Your mind is way too young and impressionable for this kind of stress. Don't turn on the news until you're at least 30.

[Don Scrappy]

Pops and Palin tell Couric not to bully Sarah at pizza place.
9RywhPtebuM

CBS link (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4487886n)

I am a big fan of McCain, mostly because I think Obama's economic policies are insane, but every time I hear Palin talk I feel more and more unable to support McCain for the minuscule chance that she might receive some real power.

[Archangel]

I'm not trying to be snarky for once here. But seriously, how ignorant or ideologically blinded do (certain) Americans have to be to think that this is a good idea? I mean, either you don't know where Syria is, either, or don't care, or you believe that the US should bomb all brown people anyway, or... what?

[Mustard]

Syria? Isn't that like a shoe company?

Sarah Palin is a Milf!!! I MUST VOTE FOR THE TITTAYS1!!11!

[fuldstændigamok]

I'm not trying to be snarky for once here. But seriously, how ignorant or ideologically blinded do (certain) Americans have to be to think that this is a good idea? I mean, either you don't know where Syria is, either, or don't care, or you believe that the US should bomb all brown people anyway, or... what?

But, what about teh dinosaurs?

[Archangel]

But, what about teh dinosaurs?

I just read the article you sent me, and...

Jesus fucking Christ.

[Mustard]

Article? Pray tell...

[fuldstændigamok]

I just read the article you sent me, and...

Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeah. Scary, ain/t it?

[Archangel]

Let me just say that, as a rather fervent Christian, if I lived in rural America, I'd become an atheist in a heartbeat.

[Mustard]

Hat tip to Fuld and Arch for making me aware of this little gem:

Link to story here, article below in the box. (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-palinreligion28-2008sep28,0,3643718.story?track=rss)


Palin treads carefully between fundamentalist beliefs and public policy

Her faith views are strong and sometimes controversial. Her aides say she seeks to share but not impose her faith; her critics say she has 'a fine-tuned sense of how far to push.

By Stephen Braun, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 28, 2008

ANCHORAGE -- Soon after Sarah Palin was elected mayor of the foothill town of Wasilla, Alaska, she startled a local music teacher by insisting in casual conversation that men and dinosaurs coexisted on an Earth created 6,000 years ago -- about 65 million years after scientists say most dinosaurs became extinct -- the teacher said.

After conducting a college band and watching Palin deliver a commencement address to a small group of home-schooled students in June 1997, Wasilla resident Philip Munger said, he asked the young mayor about her religious beliefs.

Palin told him that "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time," Munger said. When he asked her about prehistoric fossils and tracks dating back millions of years, Palin said "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks," recalled Munger, who teaches music at the University of Alaska in Anchorage and has regularly criticized Palin in recent years on his liberal political blog, called Progressive Alaska.

The idea of a "young Earth" -- that God created the Earth about 6,000 years ago, and dinosaurs and humans coexisted early on -- is a popular strain of creationism.

Though in her race for governor she called for faith-based "intelligent design" to be taught along with evolution in Alaska's schools, Gov. Palin has not sought to require it, state educators say.

As governor and in her formative role as mayor of Wasilla, Palin has trod carefully between her evangelical faith and public policy on issues such as abortion and library books. At times she has retreated when her moves have sparked controversy or proved politically impractical.

She has harnessed the political muscle of social conservatives and antiabortion groups, yet she did not push hard for a special legislative session on abortion, and she did not challenge a court ruling that allowed health insurance for same-sex partners of state workers.

Palin has attended a number of prayer sessions with pastors and has quietly sought their guidance, but she is often mum on matters of faith in high-profile public forums.

Her aides say Palin's caution at the intersection of religion and governance is a studied effort to share her beliefs without forcing them on Alaska.

"She's obviously an intensively religious person," said Bill McAllister, Palin's chief spokesman as governor. "She understands that she's the governor and not preacher in chief. Religion informs her decisions, but she is not out to impose her views on Alaska."

McAllister said that he never heard Palin make such remarks about dinosaurs and that Palin preferred not to discuss her views on evolution publicly.

"I've never had a conversation like that with her or been apprised of anything like that," McAllister said. He added that "the only bigotry that's still safe is against Christians who believe in their faith."

Palin's critics say she holds back from trying to codify her faith-based views when she senses it will cost her politically.

"She's got a fine-tuned sense of how far to push," said John Stein, who guided Palin into her political career before she toppled him as Wasilla's mayor.

'Moral majority'

Stein said Palin displayed only hints of her fundamentalist Assembly of God upbringing when he first backed her for a nonpartisan run for Wasilla City Council in the early 1990s. But in 1996, when Palin ousted Mayor Stein with the aid of pink-colored antiabortion mailers and busloads of Christian grass-roots activists, she grew more overt about her plans, he said.

She combined her staff meetings with prayer sessions, Stein said, and upset the town's chief librarian by asking what the process would be for banning books. According to Stein, bans were never carried out only because "the library director was horrified and stood up to her."

Geri McCann, who ran the town museum under Mayor Palin, counters: "Sarah brought it up because she knew there was a moral majority in Wasilla who needed their voices heard."

During an October 2006 debate in the Alaska governor's race, Palin urged that evolution and creationist ideas be taught together in state schools. "Don't be afraid of information and let kids debate both sides," she said.

But since taking office in December 2006, Palin has made no moves to impose the teaching of creationism or "intelligent design," the modern version of creationist thought, in Alaska schools.

"As far as teachers are concerned, we haven't seen any push," said Joan Sargent, a Fairbanks teacher who heads the Alaska Science Teachers Assn. Teachers already have the flexibility to introduce creationist views, as an addendum to the mainstream study of evolution, Sargent said.

'Political capital'

Palin is "still new at this game," said Democratic state Rep. Les Gara, whose colleagues also have gained leverage against Palin through a power-sharing arrangement with Palin rival Lyda Green, a Republican who is president of the state Senate.

In the 2006 governor's race, Palin was unequivocal in her opposition to abortion. In a questionnaire from the conservative Eagle Forum, she wrote: "I am pro-life," adding that she would agree to allow abortion only in medical cases where "the mother's life would end."

But Palin, who took office in December 2006, has not made Alaska a battleground on the issue.

When two bills emerged in the Alaska Legislature this year to restrict abortion -- one to require parental consent and the other to outlaw dilation-and-extraction procedures, called partial-birth abortion by opponents -- Palin said she was ready to sign them into law.

But both efforts were killed by Democrats. And when Green, who supported the measures, pressed for a special session to deal with abortion, Palin instead chose a special session to secure a natural gas pipeline project.

Antiabortion leaders said they understood Palin's delay on the issue because of other state concerns.

"She's a woman of integrity and we trust her," said Karen Lewis of Alaska Right to Life. "Sometimes you have to wait."

Palin also did not challenge an Alaska Supreme Court ruling that mandated health insurance benefits for same-sex partners. Instead she signed a nonbinding referendum that asked voters their opinion on the issue.

"She's been careful not to squander all her political capital on social conservative issues," said Allison Mendel, an attorney whose lawsuit led to the insurance ruling.

Pentecostal training

Palin has appeared at prayer sessions and church functions across Alaska and has turned to her childhood pastor and other religious leaders for guidance.

"She uses us as a sounding board," said the Rev. Paul Riley, who spent 30 years leading the Wasilla Assembly of God Church, where Palin worshiped until a few years ago. Riley said he and other pastors formed prayer circles around Palin in Anchorage at several "One Lord Sunday" events -- which bring together various churches -- and had offered prayers at similar events since she became governor.

In April, Palin told 500 people at an Assembly of God conference in the Anchorage Sheraton about the trials ahead in raising her youngest child, Trig. Born that month, he has Down syndrome.

"The whole group stood up and prayed beside her," Riley said. The pastors also prayed that Palin's efforts to win a major natural gas pipeline project would lead to a "blessing."

In one of her more controversial appearances in the Wasilla church, Palin told a group of ministry students in June to pray that sending troops to Iraq was part of "God's plan."

In a speech this month at a deployment ceremony for her Iraq-bound soldier son, Palin called the conflict a "righteous cause."

McAllister said Palin did not know that she was being taped when she made the Iraq war remarks at the church. And her practice of turning to local pastors for guidance and prayer is in line with the practices of other American political leaders, he said.

"It's nothing out of the ordinary," McAllister said. "Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan did it."

Palin grew up steeped in Pentecostalism at the Wasilla church, where she learned "memory verses" from the Bible as a young "Missionette" -- the church's equivalent of a Girl Scout.

Theron Horn, the church's youth pastor at the time and now a Minnesota businessman, often told Palin and her classmates that they could grow up to be anything -- including politicians. Horn said he "was just trying to get the kids to see their potential," but Riley said it was a turning point for Palin.

Worldviews

Palin was accustomed early on to the sight of churchgoers ecstatically declaring their faith by speaking in tongues -- a practice familiar to the more than 6 million Americans who are members of Pentecostal churches.

Neither Riley nor Tim McGraw, who took over as pastor when Riley retired in 1986, recalled seeing Palin taking part in the charismatic prayers.

But "whether she did or not doesn't matter," said McGraw, who now leads the Yosemite Christian Center in Madera, Calif. "We're not some sect on the fringe. This is a reputable denomination of Christianity."

Although she now worships in traditional fundamentalist churches in Wasilla and Juneau, Palin's formative years in Pentecostal churches have been a target for some bloggers and Democratic opponents. They point to controversial statements from some of her pastors about converting gays and Jews and to her own comments about the Iraq war.

"It's legitimate to ask questions about candidates who come from a fundamentalist environment with a black-and-white worldview, and want to know how it would affect their approach on all kinds of issues," said Paul S. Boyer, a retired University of Wisconsin history professor who has written about the role of religious prophecy on public policy.

But Douglas Wead, an author and former aide to President George H.W. Bush, argues that the campaign brush fires over Palin's religious background and pastors' statements ignores or trivializes the emergence of evangelical Christianity in the American mainstream.

"Are we saying they can't participate in public life?" Wead asked.
I think it would be a totally fair question to ask Sarah Palin point blank if she believes that man and dinosaur walked the Earth at the same time, and if so, to elaborate and give a detailed thesis on why she believes that.

For the record, I feel that anyone who actually thinks man and dinosaur walked the Earth at the same point in time shouldn't just be ridiculed, they should be examined by a medical professional to determine whether or not they are certifiably crazy.

[vasili denisov]

Pops and Palin tell Couric not to bully Sarah at pizza place.
9RywhPtebuM

CBS link (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4487886n)
Check out McCain's hands when she starts talking. They're as twitchy as a prison snitch.

[Axel]

But, what about teh dinosaurs?Dinosaurs extinct few thousand years ago as a result of lax abortion legislations, homosexual marriages and since they couldn’t have protected themselves against dangerous minorities due to overly strict Gun control stipulations, right?

[Yelram]

Hat tip to Fuld and Arch for making me aware of this little gem:

Link to story here, article below in the box. (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-palinreligion28-2008sep28,0,3643718.story?track=rss)


I think it would be a totally fair question to ask Sarah Palin point blank if she believes that man and dinosaur walked the Earth at the same time, and if so, to elaborate and give a detailed thesis on why she believes that.

For the record, I feel that anyone who actually thinks man and dinosaur walked the Earth at the same point in time shouldn't just be ridiculed, they should be examined by a medical professional to determine whether or not they are certifiably crazy.

Yeah because all of the cultures around the world that talk about Dragons (ALL OF THEM) just made that up.Its the only "mythical" creature in the chinese zodiac. Just like there was no flood, and yet flood "myths" from multiple world cultures that had no way of communicating exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_%28mythology))

There are points that creationists believe that need to be addressed I find it really funny how absolutely sure you are when you have only been told that by mainstream science. If you look at some of the mormon's beliefs, they were talking about "concrete" structures in mesoamerica long before archaeologists uncovered what used to be Tenochtitlan. Ignorance in all of its forms irks me. I find Christians that rule out science without investigating it ignorant, just like I find assholes like you that undermine other peoples views with nothing more than reassurance from your head "priests", while you huff and puff about how smart you are for believing them. Science is slowly becoming a religion filled with hate and clouded by pride.

[Axel]

There are points that creationists believe that need to be addressed I find it really funny how absolutely sure you are when you have only been told that by mainstream science. If you look at some of the mormon's beliefs,...*moron's beliefs

Pops and Palin tell Couric not to bully Sarah at pizza place.
9RywhPtebuMPalin is going to kick ass in the VP debate. She doesn't need to know facts, it’s enough that she looks good and smiles nice.

McCain & Palin’s campaign probably relay on wisdom of an average US voter and wizardry of PR machinery, which can create a fiction instead of reality. But than again…

"The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to be credible." - Mark Twain

[Yelram]

*moron's beliefs

Palin is going to kick ass in the VP debate. She doesn't need to know facts, it’s enough that she looks good and smiles nice.

McCain & Palin’s campaign probably relay on wisdom of an average US voter and wizardry of PR machinery, which can create a fiction instead of reality. But than again…

"The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to be credible." - Mark Twain

Wow hateful distaste towards others beliefs from an open minded european liberal???? OMG I thought you guys were the bastion of tolerance over there is slovakistan.

[freegood]

*moron's beliefs

Palin is going to kick ass in the VP debate. She doesn't need to know facts, it’s enough that she looks good and smiles nice.

McCain & Palin’s campaign probably relay on wisdom of an average US voter and wizardry of PR machinery, which can create a fiction instead of reality. But than again…

"The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to be credible." - Mark Twain

Expectations are lowered to Bush standards. Her not fucking up will be an "impressive win" against a veteran of Capitol Hill.

[UNC]

I hope McCain dies hours after beidng sworn in

[Oggie]

*minutes

[Pharon]

Put Palin on the Supreme Court
Washington's old-boy problem hardly ends at the Oval Office.
Dahlia Lithwick
NEWSWEEK
From the magazine issue dated Sep 22, 2008

If there is a lesson to be learned about Sarah Palin's dizzying political ascent, it's that America really loathes Washington insiders, especially those tasked with working inside Washington. The surest way to affront the American voter is to offer up a candidate with an Ivy League education, experience inside the Beltway and D.C. connections. If Palin stands for anything, it's that when it comes to both the presidency and Pixar movies, nothing good ever happens until the Stranger Comes to Town. But while our contempt for the Washington life touches everyone in the legislative and executive branches, it's become almost a job requirement at the Supreme Court. This third branch of government is wildly overrepresented by insider lawyers with identical résumés. You can swap out one Ivy League law school for another, but beyond that, the bench is ever more populated by folks like Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, John Roberts and Samuel Alito—brilliant men whose chief job experience consisted of work for the executive branch followed by a stint on the federal bench. It's not that these are bad qualities in a jurist. It's just that a court that once included governors and senators and former football stars is now overrun by an elite cadre of mostly male, mostly East Coast lawyers. If ever there were a branch of government crying out for varying life experiences, it's the Supreme Court. And if any branch of government is in need of a mother of five who likes shooting wolves from helicopters, the court is it.

It's not just that Palin would be great for the ever more stuffy Supreme Court. Closer scrutiny suggests that the Supreme Court might actually be a better fit for Palin. Consider her interests: Palin has little background in national security, health care, immigration or foreign policy. Her main concerns have been the hot-button social issues that cannot be settled by fiat in the executive branch. Palin wants to do away with abortion and strongly opposes gay marriage. She supports teaching creationism in schools and believes in promoting religious free expression. These are constitutional issues on which Republican presidents have been thwarted for decades. Since the Supreme Court has often been the lone defender of the rights of women, gay couples and atheists, installing a Sarah Palin there would do far more to undo these things than getting her into the White House.

The office of the vice president may be the place in which Palin's status as the pre-eminent D.C. outsider would be more a hindrance than a help. Whatever your views of Washington insiders, clearly some knowledge of the ins and outs of the Congress, the various agencies, NGOs, and lobbyists, is helpful in a vice president. This kind of granular understanding of how D.C. actually works made both Al Gore and Dick Cheney such powerful vice presidents. Failure to understand it wrecked the political careers of Harriet Miers and Alberto Gonzales.

Palin is well aware of the awesome power of the courts. That's why, when the Alaska Supreme Court struck down a controversial abortion restriction last year by a 3-2 margin, she excoriated them for "legislating from the bench," named a new justice to the court and pushed for the passage of an even harsher version of the same law, explicitly intended—said its sponsor—"to overturn [the Alaska Supreme Court]." Governor Palin understands the fundamental tediousness of constitutional checks and balances. She knows that if a court gets it wrong, you just build a better court.

Finally, Palin has revealed, both as the mayor of Wasilla and then as the chief executive of Alaska, a style of governance that features the not-infrequent firing of dissenters. Among the growing list of those dismissed or threatened with removal on Palin's watch were Mary Ellen Emmons, the Wasilla town librarian and vociferous opponent of Palin's proposal to dabble in book banning, and John Bitney, Palin's legislative director, who was dating the not-quite-ex-wife of one of her husband's friends. Palin is also the subject of an ethics investigation for firing Walt Monegan, the Alaska Public Safety commissioner, who declined to fire the state trooper divorcing her sister. I can't help but wonder if following two years of scandals surrounding the Bush administration's decision to terminate nine U.S. attorneys for their imagined disloyalty, John McCain might be nervous about a vice president with a proclivity toward doing the same thing. If McCain puts Palin on the Supreme Court, however, she has only a trio of law clerks and a secretary to hire, and each can be vetted for ideological purity.

No fair arguing that Palin isn't experienced enough to sit on the highest court of the land. What matters—far more than experience—is one's unyielding moral certainty, relatability and gender. And Palin has these qualities in spades. Washington's old-boy problem hardly ends at the Oval Office. If ever there were a D.C. institution in dire need of a place to plug in a breast pump, it's the Supreme Court. And Palin has already proven that neither the courts, nor precedent, nor even the Constitution itself will be a match for the force of her will. America has finally found someone suited to put the "law" back into scofflaw, and it's Sarah Palin. McCain shouldn't waste her talents on state funerals.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/158748

[Smokestack]

Pops and Palin tell Couric not to bully Sarah at pizza place.
9RywhPtebuM

CBS link (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4487886n)

She hates gotcha questions but she sure seems to like saying, "GOTCHA!" The true test of the debate on Thursday will be how much of America resists clicking 'mute' on their remotes when she speaks.

[Rover]

Let me just say that, as a rather fervent Christian, if I lived in rural America, I'd become an atheist in a heartbeat.The pope would like you to call him. He's rather surprised and happy that there are fervent Christians anywhere in Europe.

Hat tip to Fuld and Arch for making me aware of this little gem:

Link to story here, article below in the box. (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-palinreligion28-2008sep28,0,3643718.story?track=rss)


I think it would be a totally fair question to ask Sarah Palin point blank if she believes that man and dinosaur walked the Earth at the same time, and if so, to elaborate and give a detailed thesis on why she believes that.

For the record, I feel that anyone who actually thinks man and dinosaur walked the Earth at the same point in time shouldn't just be ridiculed, they should be examined by a medical professional to determine whether or not they are certifiably crazy.Then it wouldn't be a fair question to ask her. You've already predetermined your response to her answer. If she says the answer is, "Faith." There's not a lot you can do, as far as countering her point. So instead you'd "ridicule" her.

How open-minded. Religious freedom is out there somewhere, not in here, but out there somewhere.

[The Batman]

There are points that creationists believe that need to be addressed I find it really funny how absolutely sure you are when you have only been told that by mainstream science. If you look at some of the mormon's beliefs, they were talking about "concrete" structures in mesoamerica long before archaeologists uncovered what used to be Tenochtitlan. Ignorance in all of its forms irks me. I find Christians that rule out science without investigating it ignorant, just like I find assholes like you that undermine other peoples views with nothing more than reassurance from your head "priests", while you huff and puff about how smart you are for believing them. Science is slowly becoming a religion filled with hate and clouded by pride.

Proof again you’re an idiot. There are a few theories in science that can obviously be debated, like global warming, but dinosaurs are way past theories. Carbon dating is proven fact and not a theory of science and for Christians only to state opinion in trying to prove dinosaurs didn't exist is foolish. Science at the very least has some facts behind it that indisputable.

[fuldstændigamok]

Then it wouldn't be a fair question to ask her. You've already predetermined your response to her answer. If she says the answer is, "Faith." There's not a lot you can do, as far as countering her point. So instead you'd "ridicule" her.

How open-minded. Religious freedom is out there somewhere, not in here, but out there somewhere.

Nothing to do with open-minded here. Im sorry but there is nothing else to do than ridicule anyone saying that dinosaurs were walking alongside men 6000 years ago. NOTHING.

[The Batman]

How open-minded. Religious freedom is out there somewhere, not in here, but out there somewhere.

Of course there is religious freedom, but to be THAT ignorant of fact and science is a problem when you're the vice president of the United States. We are not trying to get a priest to run this country, we are trying to get a sound minded individual who will do whats right and whats best for all of us. There is a reason there is a seperation between church and state.

[Smokestack]

How open-minded. Religious freedom is out there somewhere, not in here, but out there somewhere.

Good point. It really would be the height of open-mindedness to put someone who believes that man and dinosaur co-existed in the office of VP. Yeesh.

[redsox39]

as the National review stated last week, she is out of her league. it was a stunt, and our nation is not run by the result of a stunt..

She is a stunt, no doubt.

But what the Fuck do you think Obama is? Really? The Most qualified guy the Dems could find, eh?

Jesus Christ, don't throw rocks in a glass house.

and the Book banning? Get Real and check, Snopes or Factorfiction or urbanlegonds...or your favorite fact checker. Seriously, I get it that you don't like her, but why don't you just keep telling me about her retarded baby being her daughters or something. At least that lie is fun to talk about!

[redsox39]

Good point. It really would be the height of open-mindedness to put someone who believes that man and dinosaur co-existed in the office of VP. Yeesh.

You want to elect Obama, who says he is a Christian. So he beleives that Zombie Jesus rose from the dead and if you eat his flesh you will live forever. Oh, and that the US invented AIDS to kill the black man.

We can rip Obama's church and his beliefs to shreds as well. Or does open minded only apply to things you can accept?

Let me see:

Zombie Jesus? ok
Eating flesh and Drinking Blood? Ok
Man being created with the beasts? Fucking Bat shit crazy!!!!

Glad to see the open minded debate being so fair.

[The Batman]

She is a stunt, no doubt.

But what the Fuck do you think Obama is? Really? The Most qualified guy the Dems could find, eh?

Jesus Christ, don't throw rocks in a glass house.

and the Book banning? Get Real and check, Snopes or Factorfiction or urbanlegonds...or your favorite fact checker. Seriously, I get it that you don't like her, but why don't you just keep telling me about her retarded baby being her daughters or something. At least that lie is fun to talk about!

Your comparing apples and oranges. Your right that Obama isn't the most qualified guy for the position of President is one thing, but Palin is beyond not qualified, she is an idiot. She cannot logically speak about foreign affairs, the economy. She doesn't get it.

[redsox39]

Your comparing apples and oranges. Your right that Obama isn't the most qualified guy for the position of President is one thing, but Palin is beyond not qualified, she is an idiot. She cannot logically speak about foreign affairs, the economy. She doesn't get it.


So one is a BIGGER Gimmick than the other. Wow.

Apples and Oranges. You guys are freaking out about the VP while we are freaking out about the Head man himself.You are right, apples and oranges.

Here is the logic I am getting from you:

Little Gimmicks are OK for President, but Goddamnit! You can't run a Big Gimmick for VP!!

[Rover]

Nothing to do with open-minded here. Im sorry but there is nothing else to do than ridicule anyone saying that dinosaurs were walking alongside men 6000 years ago. NOTHING.I'm just saying that when it comes to religion, there is very little that is open to debate. People either believe something because they have the FAITH or they don't. If you are looking for logic in religion, you're looking in the wrong place.

Of course there is religious freedom, but to be THAT ignorant of fact and science is a problem when you're the vice president of the United States. We are not trying to get a priest to run this country, we are trying to get a sound minded individual who will do whats right and whats best for all of us. There is a reason there is a seperation between church and state.Separation of church and state is not about prohibiting public officials from freely practicing their own religion. What isn't ignorant about faith when you compare it to science?

Barack Obama believes that Jesus Christ was killed and resurrected, that he ascended to Heaven, where he sits at the right hand of God, and awaits Judgement Day, where he will return to rule over Earth, after doing battle with the Antichrist.

Alternatively, he believes there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad (praise be upon him) is His prophet.
What part of that is not ignorant of science? Oh noes, Sarah Palin does him one better and (maybe) believes that dinosaurs and man coexisted. And that's what crosses the line in your view? Are any of your beliefs logical, or do you operate purely on emotion?

Good point. It really would be the height of open-mindedness to put someone who believes that man and dinosaur co-existed in the office of VP. Yeesh.That isn't my point. My point is that religous tolerance should be extended to someone in their private life. I do not believe that religious views are open to criticism, especially when they are not being forced upon anyone by government action. You might think it's fair to criticize someone else's religion, but I do not. Especially when the practice of it is not threatening or harming anyone else.

Further proof that Liberals are only open-minded about the things they believe in.

[The Batman]

You want to elect Obama, who says he is a Christian. So he beleives that Zombie Jesus rose from the dead and if you eat his flesh you will live forever. Oh, and that the US invented AIDS to kill the black man.

We can rip Obama's church and his beliefs to shreds as well. Or does open minded only apply to things you can accept?

Let me see:

Zombie Jesus? ok
Eating flesh and Drinking Blood? Ok
Man being created with the beasts? Fucking Bat shit crazy!!!!

Glad to see the open minded debate being so fair.

Again with the apples and oranges. A lot of people in this country believe in Jesus Christ based on faith and a little bit of fact, but the idea that man lived with dinosaurs is a complete pipe dream. There is NO PROOF at all when it comes to the subject of dinosaurs that people were around. There is PROOF to the contrary.

[redsox39]

Again with the apples and oranges. A lot of people in this country believe in Jesus Christ based on faith and a little bit of fact, but the idea that man lived with dinosaurs is a complete pipe dream. There is NO PROOF at all when it comes to the subject of dinosaurs that people were around. There is PROOF to the contrary.

I am trying not to cry I am laughing so hard right now.


Apparently, There is PROOF that if you eat bread that is sybolically linked to Jesus's flesh...you will live forever.

Can I see the data on that one?

You are calling Christian beliefs that one person has as "apples" and crazy.
Then you turn around and call another person's, OF THE SAME RELIGON, beliefs as "oranges" and totally acceptable.


Glad you are making sense today.

[The Batman]

I'm just saying that when it comes to religion, there is very little that is open to debate. People either believe something because they have the FAITH or they don't. If you are looking for logic in religion, you're looking in the wrong place.

Separation of church and state is not about prohibiting public officials from freely practicing their own religion. What isn't ignorant about faith when you compare it to science?

Barack Obama believes that Jesus Christ was killed and resurrected, that he ascended to Heaven, where he sits at the right hand of God, and awaits Judgement Day, where he will return to rule over Earth, after doing battle with the Antichrist.

Alternatively, he believes there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad (praise be upon him) is His prophet.
What part of that is not ignorant of science? Oh noes, Sarah Palin does him one better and (maybe) believes that dinosaurs and man coexisted. And that's what crosses the line in your view? Are any of your beliefs logical, or do you operate purely on emotion?

That isn't my point. My point is that religous tolerance should be extended to someone in their private life. I do not believe that religious views are open to criticism, especially when they are not being forced upon anyone by government action. You might think it's fair to criticize someone else's religion, but I do not. Especially when the practice of it is not threatening or harming anyone else.

Further proof that Liberals are only open-minded about the things they believe in.

The problem is that this is science we are talking about and something that is PROVEN and FACT. Again, there are a lot of things in science that are in question, but not carbon dating. When your faith creates a system of lies its a different story entirely.

[The Batman]

I am trying not to cry I am laughing so hard right now.


Apparently, There is PROOF that if you eat bread that is sybolically linked to Jesus's flesh...you will live forever.

Can I see the data on that one?

Show me a Christian that believes that.
Personally, I don't believe in Christ. I don't think he was the son of God. I believe there was a man with the name of Jesus Christ who lived and preached "the word" but that certainly didn't make him the son of God. But, does that make any of it not true or true? No. But we are talking about the science of carbon dating specifically and that is proven.

[Smokestack]

That isn't my point. My point is that religous tolerance should be extended to someone in their private life. I do not believe that religious views are open to criticism, especially when they are not being forced upon anyone by government action. You might think it's fair to criticize someone else's religion, but I do not. Especially when the practice of it is not threatening or harming anyone else.

Further proof that Liberals are only open-minded about the things they believe in.

I agree that privately-practiced religious tolerance should be extended to all. However, since Palin has publicly expressed support for teaching creationism in classrooms, her thoughts on humans eating bronto-burgers stay in play. Sorry.

[redsox39]

Show me a Christian that believes that.
Personally, I don't believe in Christ. I don't think he was the son of God. I believe there was a man with the name of Jesus Christ who lived and preached "the word" but that certainly didn't make him the son of God. But, does that make any of it not true or true? No. But we are talking about the science of carbon dating specifically and that is proven.


So Basically, if you have faith in something we know is impossible, but cannot disprove, that is faith.

Fine, like I said before, this is you.


Zombie Jesus? Ok
Eating of flesh and Blood? ok
Man being created with the beasts? Bat Shit Crazy

Thank God we didn't get a Mormon or a "real" Muslim in here...They would be REALLY crazy!

(Unless they were running on a Democratic Ticket, then those beliefs would be totally acceptable)

How does Obama feel about the Raising of Lazurus?
Or the Dividing of the Fish and Loafs of Bread?
Or Jesus healing the Blind?
Or Baptism?
or Walking on water?
Or Jonha in the Belly of the Whale? (or Fish)
Or Noah's Ark
Or how the Ten Commandments were written?
Or Joshua at the Battle of Jericho?

Yep, Palin is the Batshit crazy one...because she has faith in one of the ludicris stories in the bible common sense tells us is not true. Obama ONLY believes in the ones that are vaugue and unprovable, therefore he is better at not only leading a nation but at hand picking his religious leanings to whatever is the most socially acceptable to get elected. Sounds less like faith and more like Bullshit to me.

[Rover]

The problem is that this is science we are talking about and something that is PROVEN and FACT. Again, there are a lot of things in science that are in question, but not carbon dating. When your faith creates a system of lies its a different story entirely.Carbon dating is not used to date dinosaur bones. Carbon 14 has a short half life and isn't really accurate outside of 60,000 years. And it relies on some assumptions. I'm not saying it isn't accurate, just that sometimes science isn't as fool-proof as you'd like to believe. Dinosaur bones are dated by dating the rocks around them by using the U235 levels because uranium has a longer half life.

How can FAITH, be built on lies? You either have faith or you don't.

[Deadhead Derek]

As to help avoid the shark jumpage.





Palin, McCain cry "gotcha journalism" with Couric

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/zontv/c%26p.jpgCBS anchorwoman Katie Couric did a joint interview Monday in Ohio with Republican candidates John McCain and Sarah Palin, and McCain came out denouncing "gotcha journalism" as he defended his running mate in the portion that aired on the CBS Evening News.
With McCain and Palin sitting side by side, the first flareup came when Couric asked Palin about a statement the candidate made over the weekend that the U.S. should launch attacks from Afghanistan into Pakistan to "stop the terrorists from coming any further in."
In that comment, Palin seemed to voicing the same position McCain had attacked his opponent, Barack Obama, for stating in their debate on Friday.
"So, Gov. Palin are you two (she and McCain) on the same page?" Couric asked.
"...We will do what we have to do to secure the United Sates and her allies," Palin said.
"Is that something you shouldn't say out loud, Sen. McCain?" Couric asked.
"Of course not," McCain snapped. "But look, I understand this day and age gotcha journalism... Grab a phrase. Gov. Palin and I agree that you don't announce that you're going to attack another country."
"Are you sorry you said it?" Couric asked returning to Palin.
"Wait a minute," McCain said interrupting. "Before you say is she sorry she said it, this was a gotcha sound bite that...
"It wasn't a gotcha," Couric insisted. "She was talking to a voter."

"No," McCain insisted back, "she was in a conversation with a group of people talking back and forth, and I'll let Gov. Palin speak for herself."
When Couric asked Palin what she learned "from that experience," the candidate replied, "That this is all about gotcha journalism...."
Couric was again focused and forceful in her questioning:"Gov. Palin, since our last interview, you have gotten a lot of flak. Some Republicans have said you are not prepared, you're not ready for prime time... And I'm curious to hear your reaction."
"Well, not only am I ready but willing and able to serve as vice president with Sen. McCain if Americans so bless us and privilege us with the opportunity of serving them -- ready with my executive experience as a city mayor and manager, as a governor, as a commissioner, a regulator of oil and gas,
And again, McCain stepped in to defend his running mate.
"This is not the first time I've seen a governor being questioned by some quote expert," he said making qotation marks with his fingers. "I remember that Ronald Reagan was a cowboy. Prseident Clinton was a governor of a very small state that had no experience either. I remember how easy it was going to be for Bush I to defeat him. I still recall, whoops, that one. But the point is that I've seen underestimation before. I'm very proud of the excitement that Gov. Palin has ignited with this party around this country."
Here is one last bit of good work yesterday from Couric, who seems to be at the center of every big story these days. Last night, in an interview with Republican Congressman John Boehner on the failure of the bailout bill, she asked the question everyone in American wanted to ask of many members of the House: "Congressman Boehner, ...what in the world are you people doing?"
In a related matter, The Nielsen Company released final ratings for Friday's debate beween McCain and Obama. The audience of 52.4 million was a big one, but it was smaller than the 62.5 million viewers that tuned in for one of the 2004 debates. Analysts expect Thursday's vice presidential showdown between Palin and Sen. Joe Biden will be larger than either of those audiences.

(Photo of Couric and Palin during an interview last week -- courtesy CBS News)

[kareyn01]

Couple of points on Religion-gate.

To Rover: You're right. Separation of church and state does protection the freedom of any individual to practice their religion in their personal life without persecution. That's the way it should be. Sarah Palin, however, is running for public office, and has stated publicly that she believes dinosaurs walked the Earth with men 6,000 years ago, and has stated that she believes creationism should be taught in schools. If someone advocates that Palin should be arrested for her beliefs, that's a problem. Not voting for her because of her personal beliefs is entirely within reason.

To RedSox: The difference between Palin's stated beliefs, and what we know of Obama's, is huge. Palin believes that proven science should be discarded in favor of a worldview that sees dinosaurs cohabiting the world with humans. Obama, to my knowledge, has never stated publicly what the extent of his belief in the biblical story is. I'm an atheist, so if he does in fact believe that the Bible is a literal story, I would have a HUGE problem with that, because I find that kind of belief both absurd and irrational. However, if he, or any one else, believes in a Creator of some kind, and that the Bible is a collection of morality plays, I'm fine with that. I don't believe in a God, but that level of belief doesn't circumvent science. That's a huge difference.

[Smokestack]

As to help avoid the shark jumpage.




Palin, McCain cry "gotcha journalism" with Couric

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/zontv/c%26p.jpgCBS anchorwoman Katie Couric did a joint interview Monday in Ohio with Republican candidates John McCain and Sarah Palin, and McCain came out denouncing "gotcha journalism" as he defended his running mate in the portion that aired on the CBS Evening News.
With McCain and Palin sitting side by side, the first flareup came when Couric asked Palin about a statement the candidate made over the weekend that the U.S. should launch attacks from Afghanistan into Pakistan to "stop the terrorists from coming any further in."
In that comment, Palin seemed to voicing the same position McCain had attacked his opponent, Barack Obama, for stating in their debate on Friday.
"So, Gov. Palin are you two (she and McCain) on the same page?" Couric asked.
"...We will do what we have to do to secure the United Sates and her allies," Palin said.
"Is that something you shouldn't say out loud, Sen. McCain?" Couric asked.
"Of course not," McCain snapped. "But look, I understand this day and age gotcha journalism... Grab a phrase. Gov. Palin and I agree that you don't announce that you're going to attack another country."
"Are you sorry you said it?" Couric asked returning to Palin.
"Wait a minute," McCain said interrupting. "Before you say is she sorry she said it, this was a gotcha sound bite that...
"It wasn't a gotcha," Couric insisted. "She was talking to a voter."

"No," McCain insisted back, "she was in a conversation with a group of people talking back and forth, and I'll let Gov. Palin speak for herself."
When Couric asked Palin what she learned "from that experience," the candidate replied, "That this is all about gotcha journalism...."
Couric was again focused and forceful in her questioning:"Gov. Palin, since our last interview, you have gotten a lot of flak. Some Republicans have said you are not prepared, you're not ready for prime time... And I'm curious to hear your reaction."
"Well, not only am I ready but willing and able to serve as vice president with Sen. McCain if Americans so bless us and privilege us with the opportunity of serving them -- ready with my executive experience as a city mayor and manager, as a governor, as a commissioner, a regulator of oil and gas,
And again, McCain stepped in to defend his running mate.
"This is not the first time I've seen a governor being questioned by some quote expert," he said making qotation marks with his fingers. "I remember that Ronald Reagan was a cowboy. Prseident Clinton was a governor of a very small state that had no experience either. I remember how easy it was going to be for Bush I to defeat him. I still recall, whoops, that one. But the point is that I've seen underestimation before. I'm very proud of the excitement that Gov. Palin has ignited with this party around this country."
Here is one last bit of good work yesterday from Couric, who seems to be at the center of every big story these days. Last night, in an interview with Republican Congressman John Boehner on the failure of the bailout bill, she asked the question everyone in American wanted to ask of many members of the House: "Congressman Boehner, ...what in the world are you people doing?"
In a related matter, The Nielsen Company released final ratings for Friday's debate beween McCain and Obama. The audience of 52.4 million was a big one, but it was smaller than the 62.5 million viewers that tuned in for one of the 2004 debates. Analysts expect Thursday's vice presidential showdown between Palin and Sen. Joe Biden will be larger than either of those audiences.

(Photo of Couric and Palin during an interview last week -- courtesy CBS News)

From Time's TV Critic (http://www.time-blog.com/tuned_in/2008/09/mccain_and_palin_tagteam_couri.html):

1. Let's be fair: John McCain and Sarah Palin weren't claiming that a question from a voter (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/29/eveningnews/main4487826.shtml) was "gotcha journalism." They were claiming that for Katie Couric to have the temerity to take Palin's answer to a voter seriously was "gotcha journalism." That, of course, makes all the difference.

[redsox39]

Couple of points on Religion-gate.

To Rover: You're right. Separation of church and state does protection the freedom of any individual to practice their religion in their personal life without persecution. That's the way it should be. Sarah Palin, however, is running for public office, and has stated publicly that she believes dinosaurs walked the Earth with men 6,000 years ago, and has stated that she believes creationism should be taught in schools. If someone advocates that Palin should be arrested for her beliefs, that's a problem. Not voting for her because of her personal beliefs is entirely within reason.

To RedSox: The difference between Palin's stated beliefs, and what we know of Obama's, is huge. Palin believes that proven science should be discarded in favor of a worldview that sees dinosaurs cohabiting the world with humans. Obama, to my knowledge, has never stated publicly what the extent of his belief in the biblical story is. I'm an atheist, so if he does in fact believe that the Bible is a literal story, I would have a HUGE problem with that, because I find that kind of belief both absurd and irrational. However, if he, or any one else, believes in a Creator of some kind, and that the Bible is a collection of morality plays, I'm fine with that. I don't believe in a God, but that level of belief doesn't circumvent science. That's a huge difference.

Note To Palin: Keep your mouth shut, and don't talk about your religion!!

Now I have to admit, I disagree with teaching this is public schools, and she definetly has a minority Opinion on this topic. What is the big Deal? It is not like she could force creationism down your (or your kids) throats. Obama has some crazy beliefs that don't bother me any because they are so radical and crazy they willl never pass either.

Trust me, we will have legalized Pot in 50 states before Creationism is taught as truth in New York. Hell, I live in the Redest of red States, Nebraska, and that will never fly here either.

So Sarah Palin tells you how she feels, how she thinks, and answers questions truthfully about her religion. What a nut job. she was even the Gov of Alaska, and never even attepted to get creationism in the classroom passed. All she said is that she beleives in it. Let's fry all the people of Faith now...

Maybe Obama just didn't "hear" the day Rev. Wright talked about Creationism...

[Rover]

Show me a Christian that believes that.
Personally, I don't believe in Christ. I don't think he was the son of God. I believe there was a man with the name of Jesus Christ who lived and preached "the word" but that certainly didn't make him the son of God. But, does that make any of it not true or true? No. But we are talking about the science of carbon dating specifically and that is proven.It sounds like you should look into Lewis' Trilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis's_trilemma). Which do you believe? Since you've eliminated Lord, was Jesus a Liar or a Lunatic?

I agree that privately-practiced religious tolerance should be extended to all. However, since Palin has publicly expressed support for teaching creationism in classrooms, her thoughts on humans eating bronto-burgers stay in play. Sorry.Obama is in favor of giving public money to religious charities. Maybe we should delve deeper into which of Jesus' miracles he believes in and why.
Couple of points on Religion-gate.

To Rover: You're right. Separation of church and state does protection the freedom of any individual to practice their religion in their personal life without persecution. That's the way it should be. Sarah Palin, however, is running for public office, and has stated publicly that she believes dinosaurs walked the Earth with men 6,000 years ago, and has stated that she believes creationism should be taught in schools. If someone advocates that Palin should be arrested for her beliefs, that's a problem. Not voting for her because of her personal beliefs is entirely within reason.I have no problem with not voting for someone because of their religious beliefs. I have a problem with the condemnation of Palin because of her (maybe) belief that dinosaurs and man coexisted. Meanwhile, it okay for Obama and McCain to believe that Jesus was resurrected and ascended to Heaven. If you're going to call bullshit on one thing, but not the other, it's logically inconsistent.

I have no problem with Palin believing in dinosaurs walking with man. With McCain believing that Jesus was resurrected. With Romney believing that Jesus preached on the North American continent and that the garden of Eden was located in Missouri. With Obama believing in Allah. With Lieberman not believing that Jesus was a prophet. I have no problem with any of it. But to condemn one person because of their "strange" beliefs is wrong, unless you're doing it on Faith based grounds. Which clearly isn't taking place here. It's all on ideological grounds.

[kareyn01]

Note To Palin: Keep your mouth shut, and don't talk about your religion!!

So Sarah Palin tells you how she feels, how she thinks, and answers questions truthfully about her religion. What a nut job. she was even the Gov of Alaska, and never even attepted to get creationism in the classroom passed. All she said is that she beleives in it. Let's fry all the people of Faith now...


So Sarah Palin tells me how she feels, how she thinks, and answers questions truthfully, and I decide that I don't agree with her, and think that her beliefs are idiotic, and decide that I don't want to vote for her? I fail to see a problem. Actually, wait, that's the entire basis of elected government.

[redsox39]

No, it's being done on "We hate Female Republicans" ground.

[Smokestack]

Obama is in favor of giving public money to religious charities. Maybe we should delve deeper into which of Jesus' miracles he believes in and why.

True, and I don't agree with him on this point. That said, it's a little disingenuous to conflate funding religious-based charities and teaching creationism in public schools.

[kareyn01]

It sounds like you should look into Lewis' Trilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma). Which do you believe? Since you've eliminated Lord, was Jesus a Liar or a Lunatic?

Obama is in favor of giving public money to religious charities. Maybe we should delve deeper into which of Jesus' miracles he believes in and why.
[quote=kareyn01]Couple of points on Religion-gate.

To Rover: You're right. Separation of church and state does protection the freedom of any individual to practice their religion in their personal life without persecution. That's the way it should be. Sarah Palin, however, is running for public office, and has stated publicly that she believes dinosaurs walked the Earth with men 6,000 years ago, and has stated that she believes creationism should be taught in schools. If someone advocates that Palin should be arrested for her beliefs, that's a problem. Not voting for her because of her personal beliefs is entirely within reason./QUOTE]I have no problem with not voting for someone because of their religious beliefs. I have a problem with the condemnation of Palin because of her (maybe) belief that dinosaurs and man coexisted. Meanwhile, it okay for Obama and McCain to believe that Jesus was resurrected and ascended to Heaven. If you're going to call bullshit on one thing, but not the other, it's logically inconsistent.

I have no problem with Palin believing in dinosaurs walking with man. With McCain believing that Jesus was resurrected. With Romney believing that Jesus preached on the North American continent and that the garden of Eden was located in Missouri. With Obama believing in Allah. With Lieberman not believing that Jesus was a prophet. I have no problem with any of it. But to condemn one person because of their "strange" beliefs is wrong, unless you're doing it on Faith based grounds. Which clearly isn't taking place here. It's all on ideological grounds.

I don't hold someone's religious beliefs against them because I don't agree with them. I don't agree with a lot of people's ideas on economics or foreign policy, or any number of secular issues. The reason I have a problem with those people who refute science because of religion is because I don't believe that's rational thinking. There are plenty of Christians, Jews, and members of every different religion who still think the Big Bang happened. I'm happy to overlook my difference of opinion with those people; the others, not so much.

Also, I'm not a big fan of Obama's support of faith-based initiatives. However, if he removes the ability of those organizations to discriminate based on religious belief (or lack thereof), something the Bush administration approved of, a lot of my problem with it goes away.

[redsox39]

So Sarah Palin tells me how she feels, how she thinks, and answers questions truthfully, and I decide that I don't agree with her, and think that her beliefs are idiotic, and decide that I don't want to vote for her? I fail to see a problem. Actually, wait, that's the entire basis of elected government.

Good to see that you get it. You are making a non-issus a topic of debate.

but remember:

Zombie Jesus and Canabalism: ok
Creationism: WACKY!

Just admit you are looking for reasons to call her stupid. Not that it ever matters to you, you are firmly entreched in Party Politics and really, your vote was counted a long time ago as one of the Zombie drones of Democrats/Republicans.

You know they are only competing for that middle 20% that doesn't include you, right?

[Rover]

True, and I don't agree with him on this point. That said, it's a little disingenuous to conflate funding religious-based charities and teaching creationism in public schools
Not when it's being done with public money.

[redsox39]

[quote=Rover;147514]It sounds like you should look into Lewis' Trilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis%27s_trilemma). Which do you believe? Since you've eliminated Lord, was Jesus a Liar or a Lunatic?

Obama is in favor of giving public money to religious charities. Maybe we should delve deeper into which of Jesus' miracles he believes in and why.


I don't hold someone's religious beliefs against them because I don't agree with them. I don't agree with a lot of people's ideas on economics or foreign policy, or any number of secular issues. The reason I have a problem with those people who refute science because of religion is because I don't believe that's rational thinking. There are plenty of Christians, Jews, and members of every different religion who still think the Big Bang happened. I'm happy to overlook my difference of opinion with those people; the others, not so much.

Also, I'm not a big fan of Obama's support of faith-based initiatives. However, if he removes the ability of those organizations to discriminate based on religious belief (or lack thereof), something the Bush administration approved of, a lot of my problem with it goes away.

Oh God. You want Girls in the Boy Scouts don't you?

At age 14 I would have supported you too, but now, that is just stupid. For all your logic and science based beliefs, you sure have a problem with common sense.

So the international Society of Jews likes to do community service and doesn't want a Muslim in their group. So what?

There are plenty...

I am way off topic, good Job Kareyn (edit, I mispelled it)...got me going on a tangent there.

So You don't support Obama on his Faith Based programs and that he has supported them without stipulations...but you still like him.

You hate Palin for telling you that she believes in Creationism...and has never acted on it once.

[kareyn01]

Good to see that you get it. You are making a non-issus a topic of debate.

but remember:

Zombie Jesus and Canabalism: ok
Creationism: WACKY!

Just admit you are looking for reasons to call her stupid. Not that it ever matters to you, you are firmly entreched in Party Politics and really, your vote was counted a long time ago as one of the Zombie drones of Democrats/Republicans.

You know they are only competing for that middle 20% that doesn't include you, right?

You really need to look up non sequitur in the dictionary. It would save the rest of us a lot of time.

Let me address your "points":

1) You may think that having someone as a Vice President who wants creationism taught in schools, believes dinosaurs and men lived together, and sued the federal government because they wanted to name polar bears and beluga whales endangered species is a non-issue. I disagree.

2) Did I not mention that I am an atheist, and don't believe in a Creator of any kind? I think anyone that believes that the bread they eat in Communion is transubstantiated into the actual body of Christ is a lunatic.

3) You're right. I'm a registered Democrat, so it was going to be difficult for a Republican to receive my presidential vote. That being said, I voted for Bush over Gore in 2000, and voted for Mitch McConnell for Senate twice. I've also been highly critical of the Democrats stance on FISA, the bailout, and numerous other issues. So saying that I'm "entrenched in party politics" because a majority of my views tend to be more aligned with one party is a little bit of a stretch.

[kareyn01]

[quote=kareyn01;147530]

Oh God. You want Girls in the Boy Scouts don't you?

At age 14 I would have supported you too, but now, that is just stupid. For all your logic and science based beliefs, you sure have a problem with common sense.

So the international Society of Jews likes to do community service and doesn't want a Muslim in their group. So what?

There are plenty...

I am way off topic, good Job Kareyn (edit, I mispelled it)...got me going on a tangent there.

So You don't support Obama on his Faith Based programs and that he has supported them without stipulations...but you still like him.

You hate Palin for telling you that she believes in Creationism...and has never acted on it once.

1) Screw Girl Scouts in the Boy Scouts. That's why they invented the Girl Scouts.

2) If you give federal money to an organization of any kind, they should not be able to discriminate based on religious beliefs, sexual orientation, or any other grounds. If they prove that such discrimination will not be enforced, and they offer good programs, give them money. Don't discriminate against the organization because it happens to be religious in nature.

3) Yes, I disagree with Obama on this issue. I also agree with him on many others. I've yet to find an issue that Palin seems to have any acceptable level of understanding or coherence on, which is my main issue with her. Her irrational religious beliefs are just a part of the whole.

[Archangel]

The pope would like you to call him. He's rather surprised and happy that there are fervent Christians anywhere in Europe.


Have you ever been in a church in Italy or Poland on a Sunday morning?


Then it wouldn't be a fair question to ask her. You've already predetermined your response to her answer. If she says the answer is, "Faith." There's not a lot you can do, as far as countering her point. So instead you'd "ridicule" her.

How open-minded. Religious freedom is out there somewhere, not in here, but out there somewhere.


Yeah. You're free to let blind adherence to dogma make you stupid. But there's also freedom of speech, which gives me the right to call you an imbecile for doing so.

You want to elect Obama, who says he is a Christian. So he beleives that Zombie Jesus rose from the dead and if you eat his flesh you will live forever. Oh, and that the US invented AIDS to kill the black man.

We can rip Obama's church and his beliefs to shreds as well. Or does open minded only apply to things you can accept?

Let me see:

Zombie Jesus? ok
Eating flesh and Drinking Blood? Ok
Man being created with the beasts? Fucking Bat shit crazy!!!!

Glad to see the open minded debate being so fair.


One's Old Testament, the other is New Testament. Do I need to explain the difference between Jews and Christians to you?

And honestly, is this the level of discussion on Christianity in America? "Zombie Jesus"? Is that how Americans discuss the resurrection of the flesh? Are you people too fucking stupid to interpret anything any way BUT literally? Jesus Christ, we went beyond literal interpretation in the 5th fucking century. Apparently, you're at the level of the Visigoths. Our monks stipulated 500 years ago that you couldn't take the Tower of Babel episode literally, because a building that would have reached "the heavens" would have been heavier than the earth. Palin would probably call them apostates.

Seriously, guys, become Muslims or something. Christianity is obviously over your heads.

The problem is that this is science we are talking about and something that is PROVEN and FACT. Again, there are a lot of things in science that are in question, but not carbon dating. When your faith creates a system of lies its a different story entirely.

It's not about "lies". It's about people being too bloody daft to recognise that a book was written according to the epistemes of 4-5,000 years ago. The accounts of Creation as depicted in Genesis are a METAPHOR, for people who, at the time, didn't know about evolution, the big bang, atoms, or DNA, and who wouldn't have fucking understood if you had told them.

You can integrate modern scientific epistemes into your faith. It just requires some independent thought, which is the one thing American Christianity wants to avoid the most.


Wait, does any American Christian even know what an episteme is?


How can FAITH, be built on lies? You either have faith or you don't.

Yeah, but you can also be stupid. God gave you reason so that you would use it, not waste it on bullshit. I'm a harsh critic of the prophets of pure empirism, and I consider myself to be a man of faith.
But I take the Old Testament about as literally as the Theogony, which is actually far more recent.

I like to use the metaphor of a learning child. Human consciousness itself was in its infancy when Genesis was written. People then weren't stupid, they just knew far less than we know today.
So if you have a smart four-year-old asking you why the sky is blue, do you give him a lecture on the properties of wavelengths of visible light, and the refractory effects of particles inside the earth's atmosphere? You could, but I would pity your child. No. You simplify things. You don't lie to him, but you use easily comprehensible metaphors so that he can understand the basic principles. That's what Genesis is. Creation dumbed down for a very young human consciousness.

By the same token, if you use the same metaphors when explaining things to a mature, educated adult or even a teenager, your interlocutor will think that you are a bit daft. Which is why people who believe in the literal words of Genesis in the year 2008, hell, in the year 1356, are right fucking imbeciles.

[Deadhead Derek]

any person who, in a political position of power, tries to apply their beliefs on an issue OUTSIDE of the scope of their position is greatly troubling.

Palin as Mayor of Wasilla tried to have books banned from the library.

Huge fucking problem.

[Deadhead Derek]

Wait, does any American Christian even know what an episteme is?



That's what they do at childbirth, right?

[Archangel]

In all honesty, people like Palin make me glad that we kicked all the fucking puritans, methodists, baptists, quakers, presbyterians, evangelicals, and all those other idiots out of Europe. And people say that the inquisition was a bad thing.

You guys discuss Zombie Jesus and Noah putting Apatosaurs into his ark. And this in the country with possibly the best theological department in the world...

[redsox39]

You really need to look up non sequitur in the dictionary. It would save the rest of us a lot of time.

Let me address your "points":

1) You may think that having someone as a Vice President who wants creationism taught in schools, believes dinosaurs and men lived together, and sued the federal government because they wanted to name polar bears and beluga whales endangered species is a non-issue. I disagree.

2) Did I not mention that I am an atheist, and don't believe in a Creator of any kind? I think anyone that believes that the bread they eat in Communion is transubstantiated into the actual body of Christ is a lunatic.

3) You're right. I'm a registered Democrat, so it was going to be difficult for a Republican to receive my presidential vote. That being said, I voted for Bush over Gore in 2000, and voted for Mitch McConnell for Senate twice. I've also been highly critical of the Democrats stance on FISA, the bailout, and numerous other issues. So saying that I'm "entrenched in party politics" because a majority of my views tend to be more aligned with one party is a little bit of a stretch.

Let me address your points:

1. If she wants this so bad, why has she never acted on it? I want all girls, on their 18th birthday, to give me head, but I don't think I'll ever make a play for it. For one, my wife might not appreciate it. (then again, it WOULD save her a lot of hassle...) So if she isn't actively making a push for this to happen, who cares?

2. I guess that Obama is a Lunitic then, unless he is just eating it to be a poser.

3. Glad to see your voting history. That doesn't change the fact that on this election, our votes have already be taken for granted.

[The Batman]

It sounds like you should look into Lewis' Trilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis's_trilemma). Which do you believe? Since you've eliminated Lord, was Jesus a Liar or a Lunatic?

I don't know what he was and I am okay with that. I believe he wasn't the son of God. Thats one thing I am pretty certain about. But, "Jesus" and Christianity is a great driving force in people and helps certain people to have purpose and shows some people how to better yourself. I don't have a problem with people who believe that Jesus was the son of God or wasn't, my problem is blind faith and total disregard for common sense and facts.

[Archangel]

Is Obama Catholic? Because Protestants do not, as a matter of fact, believe in transsubstantiation.

[kareyn01]

Is Obama Catholic? Because Protestants do not, as a matter of fact, believe in transsubstantiation.

That was kind of my point, but I think it went over Red Sox's head. I'm not sure he's all that familiar with Jon Wyclif or Jan Hus.

Here's the thing about Palin's views. She hasn't tried to legislate them, and I give her credit for that. It would make them much worse if she did. My problem (as I've stated repeatedly) is that she holds those opinions in the first place, which illustrates that she is not a rational thinker.

[redsox39]

I don't know what he was and I am okay with that. I believe he wasn't the son of God. Thats one thing I am pretty certain about. But, "Jesus" and Christianity is a great driving force in people and helps certain people to have purpose and shows some people how to better yourself. I don't have a problem with people who believe that Jesus was the son of God or wasn't, my problem is blind faith and total disregard for common sense and facts.

So if believeing Jesus is the Son of God is not blind faith...what is?

[redsox39]

That was kind of my point, but I think it went over Red Sox's head. I'm not sure he's all that familiar with Jon Wyclif or Jan Hus.

Here's the thing about Palin's views. She hasn't tried to legislate them, and I give her credit for that. It would make them much worse if she did. My problem (as I've stated repeatedly) is that she holds those opinions in the first place, which illustrates that she is not a rational thinker.

So basically anyone who actually believes in the faith they were raised in, is a pinhead? If they don't think for themselves, right?
and since you are an expert on Obama's faith...what does he believe in? I am pretty sure if you beleive in ANY form of Organized Faith, you made some bonehead concessions along the way to rediculous concepts that defy logic.

[kareyn01]

So basically anyone who actually believes in the faith they were raised in, is a pinhead? If they don't think for themselves, right?
and since you are an expert on Obama's faith...what does he believe in? I am pretty sure if you beleive in ANY form of Organized Faith, you made some bonehead concessions along the way to rediculous concepts that defy logic.

I was raised Catholic, and thinking for myself, I came to the conclusion that I didn't believe in God. My sister, thinking for herself, came to the conclusion that she did. My sister also believes in the Big Bang, dinosaurs going extinct 65 million years ago, and that the Bible isn't a literal telling of history.

Anybody who doesn't think for themselves, no matter what decision they arrive it, is in fact a pinhead. And since when did I say that I am an expert on Obama's faith? All I know about his beliefs are what he has said about them, and what I know about the Protestant faith as a whole.

[Rover]

That was kind of my point, but I think it went over Red Sox's head. I'm not sure he's all that familiar with Jon Wyclif or Jan Hus.

Here's the thing about Palin's views. She hasn't tried to legislate them, and I give her credit for that. It would make them much worse if she did. My problem (as I've stated repeatedly) is that she holds those opinions in the first place, which illustrates that she is not a rational thinker.You have arbitrarily drawn a line in the sand. On one side, people who people that man and dinosaurs coexisted are batshit crazy and irrational (Palin); on the other, people who believe in the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus are sane and rational (Obama). I just don't see the logic of these positions. Maybe if you believe that both Obama and Palin are irrational, but I don't think you're saying that.

[kareyn01]

You have arbitrarily drawn a line in the sand. On one side, people who people that man and dinosaurs coexisted are batsiht crazy and irrational (Palin); on the other, people who believe in the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus are sane and rational (Obama). I just don't see the logic of these positions. Maybe if you believe that both Obama and Palin are irrational, but I don't think you're saying that.

I do, in fact, think that the belief in the resurrection of Christ is irrational. There are, however, different levels of irrationality. If someone accidentally steps on my toe, and I call the guy an asshole, that's irrational, because he probably didn't even see my foot. If I pull out a gun and shoot him in the face, that's also irrational, but about 98 levels higher on the "Batshit-Crazy-O-Meter".

I'll put it another way. If there were two candidates with the same ideas as Barack Obama, and the second was an atheist, I'd vote for him over the real Obama in a heartbeat. But Obama's irrationality in believing in the resurrection of Jesus is exponentially less irrational than Palin's belief in the same, PLUS dinosaurs living with animals PLUS the planet only being six thousand years old PLUS her contempt for basically every scientific principle that flies in the face of her religious faith.

[The Batman]

So if believeing Jesus is the Son of God is not blind faith...what is?

I didn't say I believe Jesus is the son of God, but you're right "I" think it is blind faith. But if you tell someone who believes in Jesus that its blind faith, they will tend to say that Jesus has affected their life in some way, which doesn't make it "blind faith" anymore.

[TheImpossibleMan]

Obama is not the most qualified Democrat but is enormously popular because of his vision and skills a communicator, hence why he was picked by the Democratic voters. McCain picked Palin exclusively because she has a vagina; she has repeatedly shown a complete lack of understanding of the political climate on issues like foreign affairs and the economy. It's frankly embarassing to try and compare the two, like saying Dan Quayle is similar to Ronald Reagan.

[redsox39]

I didn't say I believe Jesus is the son of God, but you're right "I" think it is blind faith. But if you tell someone who believes in Jesus that its blind faith, they will tend to say that Jesus has affected their life in some way, which doesn't make it "blind faith" anymore.

Well, Jesus has affected EVEYONE'S life at one point or another. Right now, we are talking about him, so I guess you can say it has affect all of us.

[The Batman]

Well, Jesus has affected EVEYONE'S life at one point or another. Right now, we are talking about him, so I guess you can say it has affect all of us.

But to people that believe, its not so general, its a very specific type of effect. I am sure there are Christians on this some where. Speak up about how Jesus effects your life.

[Morfin]

Obama is not the most qualified Democrat but is enormously popular because of his vision and skills a communicator, hence why he was picked by the Democratic voters. McCain picked Palin exclusively because she has a vagina; she has repeatedly shown a complete lack of understanding of the political climate on issues like foreign affairs and the economy. It's frankly embarassing to try and compare the two, like saying Dan Quayle is similar to Ronald Reagan.

It is funny that you mentioned Reagan, because Reagan is a good example of your point about Obama. Reagan may not have been the best qualified candidate (although he did have good qualifications), but what made him a great candidate in 1980 was 1) the time was right for a conservative, and 2) he was a great communicator -- people liked him and what he said. They felt comfortable with him grandfatherly demeanor, and his "tough guy" stance with the Soviet Union made people feel safe. I think we get too involved with just qualifications, when what we are looking for from a President is also a leader, someone who we feel comfortable with. Right or wrong, Obama has a charisma that many people are receptive to. This is not much different than why Arnold is governor of California -- not real qualified, but many people feel good about his demeanor and strength.

[smahoo]

don't digress this thread into a belief in jesus discussion....the question is, how do you feel about the thought of Palin as VP?

my vote is TERRIFUCKINGFIED....I can't wait to see her deal with the first non-scripted question she gets at Thursday's debate. The Tina Fey parody about the lifeline may not be too farfetched...

[redsox39]

It is funny that you mentioned Reagan, because Reagan is a good example of your point about Obama. Reagan may not have been the best qualified candidate (although he did have good qualifications), but what made him a great candidate in 1980 was 1) the time was right for a conservative, and 2) he was a great communicator -- people liked him and what he said. They felt comfortable with him grandfatherly demeanor, and his "tough guy" stance with the Soviet Union made people feel safe. I think we get too involved with just qualifications, when what we are looking for from a President is also a leader, someone who we feel comfortable with. Right or wrong, Obama has a charisma that many people are receptive to. This is not much different than why Arnold is governor of California -- not real qualified, but many people feel good about his demeanor and strength.

This isn't hapening...This isn't hapening...This isn't hapening...

I agree with you 100%!

I just wish we would quit bullshiting about who says what and who believes this, what this means and just admit we are going to vote for a person who makes us feel comfortable and most of the issues don't mean shit. This devil's advocate has been having a good time, but anyone who thinks Obama OR McCain is getting voted in based on tenure is, quit frankly, an idiot.

[Morfin]

don't digress this thread into a belief in jesus discussion....the question is, how do you feel about the thought of Palin as VP?

my vote is TERRIFUCKINGFIED....I can't wait to see her deal with the first non-scripted question she gets at Thursday's debate. The Tina Fey parody about the lifeline may not be too farfetched...

This would be the reverse-Reagan effect: voting against the person who makes you feel most insecure.

[Deadhead Derek]

there is a line in the movie Tin Cup when L. Russo says .. " go ahead Roy, knock it on, go for it" as he hits a 12 in the open. the point is, when everything is gone, what does it matter. I might just have to vote for McCain and Palin.
Here is why. a 4 years experiment that could prove to be the absolute death of our nation. Bad, but almost needed to clean house. We pick ourselves up after, dust ourselves off, and rebuild the government be it federal or at that point regional only, and start over. Or, they do fine and nothing happens.
Hmm.

[Smokestack]

Another post from the National Review columnist who asked Palin to drop out:

Instead of Calling Rush (http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MDQ3NjBlMzVmYzBmMDQ5MjA2MTFkNTRiM2FmYTAyNGQ=) ... [Kathryn Jean Lopez (k%6c%6fp%65z@%6eati%6f%6ea%6cre%76%69%65%77.%63o% 6d)]

... this video looks like (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/29/eveningnews/main4487826.shtml) Sarah Palin went back to the principal's office with her dad.

This strikes me as so unnecessary.

Free Sarah Palin (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTUzNTM3MDk0MmI3ZWM1N2ZkZDAwZTFmMjA5Nzk3MWM=) already.

[Axel]

This would be the reverse-Reagan effect: voting against the person who makes you feel most insecure. To the point. In this respect it’s interesting to find out who polledEcstatic: kid_vidrio (http://forum.gorillamask.net/member.php?u=22), Menace2Sobriety (http://forum.gorillamask.net/member.php?u=877), Yelram (http://forum.gorillamask.net/member.php?u=812)1) a hardcore liberal 2) a MILF addict, indifferent about US policy or 3) a delusional chickenfucker

Let me explain the difference between faith and delusion: belief in Jesus’ resurrection is faith, while delusion is belief in chickenshit like this:

...If you look at some of the mormon's beliefs, they were talking about "concrete" structures in mesoamerica long before archaeologists uncovered what used to be Tenochtitlan. Ignorance in all of its forms irks me...Hernán Cortés (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hern%C3%A1n_Cort%C3%A9s) discovered Tenochtitlan during his conquest of Mexico almost at the same time as Amerigo Vespucci (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci) realized that American continent is not the eastern appendage of Asia.

[freegood]

Palin Random Quote Generator for VP! (http://palinquotes.sillycloud.com/)

"Some decisions that have been made poorly, should not be rewarded where it is the taxpayers."
"We can't afford to lose had pushed for more troops so we don't have to be takers from federal government."
"As Putin rears his head should not be rewarded that will be our top priority is to defend the American people."

[Smokestack]

ChKvdReR0uA

[redsox39]

In this respect it’s interesting to find out who polled1) a hardcore liberal 2) a MILF addict, indifferent about US policy or 3) a delusional chickenfucker

TO be Fair here...Kid Vitro tells me heis NOT a ragin liberal, because I did accuse him of that one time as well. He is a registered republican, and I quote:

"In terms of government size and control, I'm extremely conservative. In terms of general social behavior, I'm conservative. I like this board as it challenges a lot of my mores." - Kid Vitro

[Kerjack]

ChKvdReR0uA

I'm a bad man, I just don't want to be hearing that voice for 4 years.

[Morfin]

ChKvdReR0uA

Katie Couric, Snark Queen.

Sarah Palin: Learn when to stop talking. Give your answer and shut up; don't keep going just to fill up the silence.

Edit: One more thing. When is McCain's campaign staff going to figure out that putting Palin anywhere within 1000 miles of Katie Couric is a good idea. Last week, solo interview: Palin did poorly. Yesterday, Palin and Dad: Both looked stupid. Today: Another bad moment. I harken back to Phil Hartman on SNL as Frankenstein: Fire. Bad. To McCain's people: Couric. Bad.

[The Batman]

Katie Couric, Snark Queen.

Sarah Palin: Learn when to stop talking. Give your answer and shut up; don't keep going just to fill up the silence.

She doesn't have a real answer though. That's why she won't shut up.

[Gary_Busey]

I have a feeling it doesn't really matter who she's talking to.

[kid_vidrio]

TO be Fair here...Kid Vitro tells me heis NOT a ragin liberal, because I did accuse him of that one time as well. He is a registered republican, and I quote:

"In terms of government size and control, I'm extremely conservative. In terms of general social behavior, I'm conservative. I like this board as it challenges a lot of my mores." - Kid Vitro
I'm kid vidrio and I stand by this quote.

[dadaelus]

LA Times Story for the full deal
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-palindebate1-2008oct01,0,113995.story

"Palin's former aides say under the lipstick is a real pit bull"

During Palin's brief exposure to the high-stakes environment of political debates, she has unnerved both her handlers and her opponents. At times she has been handicapped by her lax approach to learning the nuances of policy and state issues, but she has also projected a Reaganesque ability to offer up pithy answers and charm on camera.

"The political landscape here is littered with people who have underestimated Sarah Palin," said Eric Croft, a former state representative who ran for the Democratic nomination for governor in 2006 and appeared with Palin during several early forums.

Palin's split-personality debate persona -- mirrored both in her confident speech to the Republican convention in Minneapolis in early September and in a series of wobbly performances in recent television interviews -- poses a challenge for her Democratic opponent, Delaware Sen. Joe Biden, as each approaches Thursday's nationally telecast vice presidential debate in St. Louis.

Palin, the former aides said, had a sharply limited attention span for absorbing the facts and policy angles required for all-topics debate preparation. Staffers were rarely able to get her to sit for more than half an hour of background work at a time before her concentration waned, preoccupied by cellphone calls and family affairs. "We were always fighting for her attention," said one of the aides.

"If you can sit her down, she has a talent for listening to a policy presentation that is so boring it would bring tears to your eyes," the aide said. "Then -- boom -- she will nail it down to its essence."

"When you try to prove she doesn't know anything, you lose, because audiences are enraptured by her," Halcro said. "And her biting comments give you a sense of how competitive she is. Anybody who doesn't take her seriously does so at their peril."

[Stax]

You have arbitrarily drawn a line in the sand. On one side, people who people that man and dinosaurs coexisted are batshit crazy and irrational (Palin); on the other, people who believe in the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus are sane and rational (Obama). I just don't see the logic of these positions. Maybe if you believe that both Obama and Palin are irrational, but I don't think you're saying that.

There is a difference between personal belief and pushing that belief into practice. I have no issue with Christians, good for them they can find a faith to believe in. I take serious issue with Christians such as Palin who seek to teach their religion where it does not belong or to ban books because they disagree with the message.

[Yelram]

Proof again you’re an idiot. There are a few theories in science that can obviously be debated, like global warming, but dinosaurs are way past theories. Carbon dating is proven fact and not a theory of science and for Christians only to state opinion in trying to prove dinosaurs didn't exist is foolish. Science at the very least has some facts behind it that indisputable.
Seriously, so last year when you graduated highschool, what science teacher told you that carbon dating was a "fact"?

http://www.essortment.com/hobbies/carbondatingac_szhq.htm
http://jubilationlee.blogspot.com/2007/09/flaws-of-carbon-dating-science-and.html
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/280/5372/2041
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/06dat5.htm
http://ceffyl.net/wordpress/arch/scientist-discovers-flaw-in-oceanic-carbon-dating/
http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/10/2257242

And then on top of that, you do not have EVERY dinosaur and EVERY human fossil, in EVERY place on earth to make a sweeping guarantee like "humans and dinosaurs never walked together" Do you know when we found the first dinosaur fossils? LESS THAN 200 YEARS AGO! There is certainly proof that dinosaurs existed long before humans, and there is definitely proof that dinosaurs were much less common after a certain period of time, but there isnt PROOF that there werent dinosaurs that existed after the time of "mass extinction".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXDBX99qePA&feature=related

Now how many rotations of the earth went on before human beings stepped on the scene is another question altogether, and I obviously disagree with the creationist "6000" years. I do believe modern homo sapiens sapiens became a different animal around 10,000 years ago or so when the beginning of agriculture and animal husbandry changed human society.

[kid_vidrio]

Yeah, great links yelram.
Here's another one.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/c14datc.htm

The war against science has been raging since Bush took office.
Sorry to see it has claimed you as a victim.

[freegood]

Seriously, so last year when you graduated highschool, what science teacher told you that carbon dating was a "fact"?
http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/10/2257242

Did you even read that slashdot? It's accurate up to 150 million years.

[Rover]

There is a difference between personal belief and pushing that belief into practice. I have no issue with Christians, good for them they can find a faith to believe in. I take serious issue with Christians such as Palin who seek to teach their religion where it does not belong or to ban books because they disagree with the message.Well, as governor, she has not tried to force schools to teach anything. It seems like if you wanted to force schools to do something, governor would be a pretty good platform to do it from. Also, the banning book thing is so overblown and misconstrued that I'm going to start believing that only idiots are going to keep using that talking point.

[Deadhead Derek]

NPR had an interview with some dude who heads a christian web thing, and he was saying , as a christian , that Palin crossed the line on church and state, with examples. don't have a link or anything, but I think it was terri gross doing the interview on 'fresh air'

[Rover]

Did you even read that slashdot? It's accurate up to 150 million years.Carbon dating is not accurate to millions of years. It is accurate to about 40,000 - 60,000 years. The half life of C14 is not very long, like 5700 years, so it decays too fast to be accurate past 50,000 years. The way dinosaur bones (and other equally old things) are dated is by radioactive dating rocks that are around them. Uranium and potassium have much longer half lifes and can be used for dating.

The problem with C14 dating is that you have to assume that the amount of C14 in something is the same today as it would have been 50,000 years ago. While, that's a fairly safe assumption, it's still an assumption.

I'm not sure where that article is going. I guess it has something to do with comparing the ratios of carbonates that the sealife produces and trying to age sediment that way. Whatever it is, it is not radioactive carbon dating.

[Debo]

There is a difference between personal belief and pushing that belief into practice. I have no issue with Christians, good for them they can find a faith to believe in. I take serious issue with Christians such as Palin who seek to teach their religion where it does not belong or to ban books because they disagree with the message.

Who do realize that she never tried to ban any books or teach creationism. Don't you?

In all fairness to you, facts have never stopped you before...


We’ve been flooded for the past few days with queries about dubious Internet postings and mass e-mail messages making claims about McCain’s running mate, Gov. Palin. We find that many are completely false, or misleading.


Palin did not cut funding for special needs education in Alaska by 62 percent. She didn’t cut it at all. In fact, she increased funding and signed a bill that will triple per-pupil funding over three years for special needs students with high-cost requirements.



She did not demand that books be banned from the Wasilla library. Some of the books on a widely circulated list were not even in print at the time. The librarian has said Palin asked a "What if?" question, but the librarian continued in her job through most of Palin's first term.




She was never a member of the Alaskan Independence Party, a group that wants Alaskans to vote on whether they wish to secede from the United States. She’s been registered as a Republican since May 1982.


Palin never endorsed or supported Pat Buchanan for president. She once wore a Buchanan button as a "courtesy" when he visited Wasilla, but shortly afterward she was appointed to co-chair of the campaign of Steve Forbes in the state.


Palin has not pushed for teaching creationism in Alaska's schools. She has said that students should be allowed to "debate both sides" of the evolution question, but she also said creationism "doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_palin.html

[freegood]

Carbon dating is not accurate to millions of years. It is accurate to about 40,000 - 60,000 years. The half life of C14 is not very long, like 5700 years, so it decays too fast to be accurate past 50,000 years. The way dinosaur bones (and other equally old things) are dated is by radioactive dating rocks that are around them. Uranium and potassium have much longer half lifes and can be used for dating.

The problem with C14 dating is that you have to assume that the amount of C14 in something is the same today as it would have been 50,000 years ago. While, that's a fairly safe assumption, it's still an assumption.

I'm not sure where that article is going. I guess it has something to do with comparing the ratios of carbonates that the sealife produces and trying to age sediment that way. Whatever it is, it is not radioactive carbon dating.

You're right. I was mistaken.

I believe the article goes into the c13 ratio of sediment to estimate carbon concentrations in the atmosphere further back in time. A bigger ratio could mean more photosynthetic activity and therefore life at the corresponding timeframes.

[Archangel]

Even asking "what if?" is going too far. Seriously, fellas, you pride yourself on valuing freedom over all, but you defend somebody who would actually contemplate deciding what you could read and what you couldn't. Don't try to play it down like it isn't a big deal, because it fucking well is.

Or maybe it isn't. Maybe most of the people who would vote for a ticket with a bona fide hillbilly on it couldn't give less of a shit about books either way, as long as football and American Idol are on.

[Deadhead Derek]

Even asking "what if?" is going too far. Seriously, fellas, you pride yourself on valuing freedom over all, but you defend somebody who would actually contemplate deciding what you could read and what you couldn't. Don't try to play it down like it isn't a big deal, because it fucking well is.

Or maybe it isn't. Maybe most of the people who would vote for a ticket with a bona fide hillbilly on it couldn't give less of a shit about books either way, as long as football and American Idol are on.
comments like that are why we bombed your ass at Nagasaki, you russian bastard.

[heelsguy]

Even asking "what if?" is going too far. Seriously, fellas, you pride yourself on valuing freedom over all, but you defend somebody who would actually contemplate deciding what you could read and what you couldn't. Don't try to play it down like it isn't a big deal, because it fucking well is.

Or maybe it isn't. Maybe most of the people who would vote for a ticket with a bona fide hillbilly on it couldn't give less of a shit about books either way, as long as football and American Idol are on.

you know, there ARE certain books that should not be in a school library or any library. "Joy of sex" might have a place behind the counter-- for those 18 and over--but not "the Art of the Blow Job"...so, is THAT restricting freedom of speech? come on now, let's be reasonable.

some people are over-sensitive to even the hint of something "taking away our freedoms" (insert terrifying shriek and forboding music here) that they let common sense slip away.

all she did is ask the question for pete's sake. I love how we get lectured from a german about freedoms

[Soup Nazi]

Any type of banning or restriction can be seen as a potential slippery slope situation. First you ban The Art of the Blowjob, then when that is accepted by all, you ban Tropic of Cancer. It's the same basic argument that pro-gun voters state when politicians want to ban something like cyanide tipped assault rifle bullets.

The idea here should not be to ban anything, since no ones moral standards should be forced upon others, especially for something as trivial as book selection. If a library wants to restrict access for minors on certain subjects, I am fine with that, but all out banning is something should not be tolerated because an evangelical wants their belief system forced on others. Now all of this is probably being over-blown, since she would have no chance of enacting any of these policies, but it still speaks ill to me about whether or not I would want her to be second in line.

[Pharon]

Not to mention that no matter what you ban, you'll just be able to find it on the internet anyway.

[The Batman]

you know, there ARE certain books that should not be in a school library or any library. "Joy of sex" might have a place behind the counter-- for those 18 and over--but not "the Art of the Blow Job"...so, is THAT restricting freedom of speech? come on now, let's be reasonable.

some people are over-sensitive to even the hint of something "taking away our freedoms" (insert terrifying shriek and forboding music here) that they let common sense slip away.

all she did is ask the question for pete's sake. I love how we get lectured from a german about freedoms

Did she try to ask about banning the Art of Blow Job? Or something like Harry Potter?

[heelsguy]

Did she try to ask about banning the Art of Blow Job? Or something like Harry Potter?


couldn't have been harry potter, since the movie had not come out yet when supposedly she asked about banning it.

look, I am not gung-ho on her or mccain. I wanted Romney and if not him, Guiliani. I just think she is being crucified a tad unfairly. If she had known in 1990 that one day she would be under this scrutiny, she would not have done/said certain things, but she was just living her life...and in my opinion, quite ambitiously (city council--> mayor---> governor)

[kareyn01]

couldn't have been harry potter, since the movie had not come out yet when supposedly she asked about banning it.

look, I am not gung-ho on her or mccain. I wanted Romney and if not him, Guiliani. I just think she is being crucified a tad unfairly. If she had known in 1990 that one day she would be under this scrutiny, she would not have done/said certain things, but she was just living her life...and in my opinion, quite ambitiously (city council--> mayor---> governor)

Alright, let's put her entire record off the table then. Even without it, she can't name a single newspaper or magazine that she reads, can't name a single Supreme Court decision other than Roe v. Wade.

[heelsguy]

Alright, let's put her entire record off the table then. Even without it, she can't name a single newspaper or magazine that she reads, can't name a single Supreme Court decision other than Roe v. Wade.

yeah that was weird. why she could not just say "oh the new york times, washington post, etc" is beyond comprehension. it was like she was frozen in stubborness to not have to tell someone an answer to such an embarassingly condescending question.

[The Batman]

yeah that was weird. why she could not just say "oh the new york times, washington post, etc" is beyond comprehension. it was like she was frozen in stubborness to not have to tell someone an answer to such an embarassingly condescending question.

Maybe she didn't say those because either it would have been a lie, or she is really what we think she is, UNINFORMED.

[smahoo]

just more proof that the selection of running mate in this election is vitally important...

quoted from former President Clinton today:
"Senator Obama has spoken a lot about how we oughta relate to the world, and yes, he'll get out and travel some in the first year, we should want him to do it. But he is going to have to be really focused on fixing this economy. That means that role of the Vice President in repairing quickly our relations with the rest of the world will be relatively more important in the first two years of the next presidency.

"And I am just telling you, you can talk to me or anybody else at any time in Washington, and they will tell you there is nobody, nobody in the entire United States senate that understands the political, the economic, and the security challenges and opportunities of the world better than Joe Biden does. He is a superb choice."

link to video

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/bill_clinton_lays_out_strong_c.php

really McCain, you believe Palin can shoulder this responsibility??

[Archangel]

I love how we get lectured from a german about freedoms

Considering how there is hardly any censorship here (with the exception of anything pro-nazi), unlike a certain country where you're not allowed to say "tits" on television, I frankly fail to see the humour.

[Archangel]

just more proof that the selection of running mate in this election is vitally important...

quoted from former President Clinton today:
"Senator Obama has spoken a lot about how we oughta relate to the world, and yes, he'll get out and travel some in the first year, we should want him to do it. But he is going to have to be really focused on fixing this economy. That means that role of the Vice President in repairing quickly our relations with the rest of the world will be relatively more important in the first two years of the next presidency.

"And I am just telling you, you can talk to me or anybody else at any time in Washington, and they will tell you there is nobody, nobody in the entire United States senate that understands the political, the economic, and the security challenges and opportunities of the world better than Joe Biden does. He is a superb choice."

link to video

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/bill_clinton_lays_out_strong_c.php

really McCain, you believe Palin can shoulder this responsibility??



Well, as long as she isn't flying the plane herself, she should at least be able to get to the country she's supposed to visit...

[Genius]

you know, there ARE certain books that should not be in a school library or any library. "Joy of sex" might have a place behind the counter-- for those 18 and over--but not "the Art of the Blow Job"...so, is THAT restricting freedom of speech? come on now, let's be reasonable.

some people are over-sensitive to even the hint of something "taking away our freedoms" (insert terrifying shriek and forboding music here) that they let common sense slip away.

all she did is ask the question for pete's sake. I love how we get lectured from a german about freedoms
And why can't there be an adult section in the library? The ONLY books that I think are justifiably banned are those describing homemade bombs and how to make them with household supplies. You accuse the "taking away freedoms" people of being overly sensitive, but there's something else entirely going on here. Who is overly sensitive, the person defending a right to any and all literature, or the person afraid to have a picture of a penis or vagina in a library? Common sense? Common sense would dictate that we not hide our sexuality away from everyone like it doesn't exist. Common sense would dictate that a TV station not get fined $277,000 for accidentally showing a partially covered nipple. Common sense would dictate that the true danger is NOT providing the public the means to broaden their horizons and better understand themselves, because of some fabricated American/Puritan ethic that at best exists in the minds of a few holier-than-thou Bible thumpers that have enough skeletons of their own to cover up, at worst never really existed at all.

[Pax Britannia]

I think the attacks on her experience are starting to go a bit too far now. What qualifications does anyone really have for being a leader of a nation unless they've done it before? As a friend of mine observed: "at some time everyone was a noob"

[Pharon]

Sure. But this is like letting Michael Jordan in the NBA when he was 13. I mean, there's a difference between "rookie" and "n00b".