Who Won Debate #2?

[NOTKyle]

This is supposedly McCain's home turf, the town meeting setting, but his petty little jabs were pretty offsetting.

Granted, I'm 100% settled on Obama, but I don't see how McCain thought his demeanor tonight would help him win over any undecided voters.

Obama never loses his cool, and he's suave enough that I watched the debate in my robe with a smile on m'face.

[ADD]

McCain. Done. (as if he wasn't already)

A personal attack in a town hall setting? You stay classy, old balls

[Soup Nazi]

Neither. So I am going with the boxing rule, and proclaiming Obama.

[BooBooBear]

Obama!

[Stax]

Neither. So I am going with the boxing rule, and proclaiming Obama.

Basically. It was pretty dull, but Obama was a clearer speaker IMO. So either it was dull and nobody won (so Obama won as the leader in the clubhouse) or Obama had a slight win.

[DjAg]

I say a draw, but if I was forced to choose one (as I am here), I'd have to go with Obama...

[dadaelus]

Favorite part

Obama: "We will kill bin Laden, we will crush al Qaeda"

McCain: "I'll get him. I know how to get him. But I am not going to telegraph my punches as Sen. Obama did."

Like Obama's desire to kill bin Laden is some kind of state secret.

[Malone]

Michael Richards's stand-up is funnier than McCain's forced jokes.

Decision: Obama.

[ElvisWong]

Obama

[comicfan]

Definitely Obama. Watching McCain walk around gingerly really slammed home to me how old this guy really is.

[Das Kahlua]

It was classic Kennedy v Nixon. Obama won on personality and poise, but McCain kept hammering Obama on the issues, repeatedly pointing out Obama's hypocracies.

America has a short attention span and an even shorter memory, so if McCain didn't wipe the floor with Obama, he lost.

[Stax]

It was classic Kennedy v Nixon. Obama won on personality and poise, but McCain kept hammering Obama on the issues, repeatedly pointing out Obama's hypocracies.

America has a short attention span and an even shorter memory, so if McCain didn't wipe the floor with Obama, he lost.

No, he didn't.

Seriously, WTF issue did McCain "hammer" Obama with? Lies about what his tax plan does, as rated by ANY independent organization?

[dadaelus]

Draw? WTF! Draws are for pussies. Pick a side of the fence and stand there. (Or put in the classic Face™©® option.)

[Das Kahlua]

No, he didn't.

Seriously, WTF issue did McCain "hammer" Obama with? Lies about what his tax plan does, as rated by ANY independent organization?

After Obama gone done a tirade against Bush and 'Big Oil,' McCain pointed out how Obama actually voted with them, with McCain opposing.

Obama was shown to have been resisting any change in Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac long before the collapse, while McCain was forcasting the collapse.

Obama wants to continue, not the last 8 years of 'misery,' but rather the last 60+ years of failure that many of our major cities, including Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, Washington, DC, and New Orleans have been suffering under.

[kareyn01]

Basically. It was pretty dull, but Obama was a clearer speaker IMO. So either it was dull and nobody won (so Obama won as the leader in the clubhouse) or Obama had a slight win.

[Rover]

This debate was as boring as my life. The most entertaining thing was Brokaw desperately trying to keep time.

Obama went into prevent defense because he's got a large lead, and McCain was able to advance the ball only by making short passes because he's afraid to drop long bombs over the defense. Obama told me nothing I didn't already know, and neither did McCain.

This thing was a draw, but McCain just has to keep pounding home the fact that Obama's in over his head and has never made a decision in his life. Hopefully, some of that sticks somewhere down the line.

[Das Kahlua]

When both candidates changed the topics to suit their own talking points, how can anyone really determine who was more effective?

[Genius]

When both candidates changed the topics to suit their own talking points, how can anyone really determine who was more effective?
With that type of attitude, we might as well just not have the debates, which I would be perfectly fine with. That has happened in every debate I've ever watched. Maybe it didn't before TV, but I'm inclined to think that it did.

[bpb]

This debate was as boring as my life. The most entertaining thing was Brokaw desperately trying to keep time.

It looked like he was about to stand up and bitchslap the both of them.

[Debo]

I know who lost: America. Their economic policies make my inner economist weep tear of pain.

[Genius]

I know who lost: America. Their economic policies make my inner economist weep tear of pain.
Mitt Romney is breaking everything he can get his hands on, wondering why the economy didn't collapse a year ago.

[Rover]

With that type of attitude, we might as well just not have the debates, which I would be perfectly fine with. That has happened in every debate I've ever watched. Maybe it didn't before TV, but I'm inclined to think that it did.Debates are boring, unless the questions are interesting, otherwise it's just the candidates reciting their stump speeches. In fact, the only difference between this an actual campaign stop is the unbelievable hype and spin associated with each debate.

There were no debates before TV. These "debates" are made for TV. It would be nice if there could be actual 3-5 hour debates with substance, but that will never happen.

Instead it's Talking Point A followed by Talking Point B.

[Debo]

Mitt Romney is breaking everything he can get his hands on, wondering why the economy didn't collapse a year ago.

I was thinking how much better off the GOP would have been with Romney about two hours ago.

[Stax]

I was thinking how much better off the GOP would have been with Romney about two hours ago.

They'd be losing narrowly rather than broadly.

[Debo]

They'd be losing narrowly rather than broadly.

Everything works in cycles and the GOP's time at the top is done for a while. Unless Pelosi and Co. screw the pooch.

[Das Kahlua]

Everything works in cycles and the GOP's time at the top is done for a while. Unless Pelosi and Co. screw the pooch.

Hooray!! Then all of America can become as fucked as Detroit!

[BIG PIZZLE]

This was closer than the first one but McCain's petty sense of humor killed it for him.

[Captain Insano]

They'd be losing narrowly rather than broadly.

WRITE IN CAMPAIGN?

[Stax]

Everything works in cycles and the GOP's time at the top is done for a while. Unless Pelosi and Co. screw the pooch.

I'm really not a fan of realignment theory, but this definitely does seem to be something like a realignment. It's been roughly 30 years, close to the traditional length, since Reagan's first election 1980. We see large, broad electoral swings to the other party, particularly driven by a new generation of voters. The Republicans need to find a way to balance their McKinley era of dominance views with the modern world.

[NOTKyle]

Barack Obama (http://www.time.com/time/topics/barack-obama/0,30939,,00.html)

Overall: Played it typically cautious and safe, and thus avoided major blunders, knowing if he commits no errors for the next thirty days, he will be the next President of the United States. The Illinois Senator used a coolly determined offense to keep McCain from building up a full head of steam when on the attack. Comfortably indicated a thorough grasp of his policies and agenda. It was not a dominating performance, but good enough. Two debates down and one to go for the prohibitive favorite.
Overall grade: B+
John McCain (http://www.time.com/time/topics/john-mccain/0,30939,,00.html)
Overall: As promised, he was comfortable in a town hall environment, directing his attention to the individual questioner and the crowd. The Republican nominee was by turns aggressive, sensitive, conservative and conversational. Successfully presented a negative case against Obama with an upbeat, optimistic smile—but was unable to paint a truly damning portrait of an Obama presidency, especially on the economy. He exhibited a few physical and verbal tics that made him look his age, including a heavy reliance on his "my friends" crutch, and seemed nervously well aware of the high stakes. Without a solid win, he did not make up as much ground as he needed to, but lives to fight on.
Overall grade: B

[Das Kahlua]

That is the most retarded grading system I've ever seen.

Doing nothing and saying nothing, while it might benefit him in the long run, should not be the basis for the win in the current debate--speaking, of course, about Obama.

Call me crazy, but shouldn't the grade that each candidate gets for this debate be given based on what they actually contributed to said debated, not how they tried to work that debate into their overall campaign strategy?

[Rover]

I know who lost: America. Their economic policies make my inner economist weep tear of pain.McCain has some explaining to do about his plan to refinance everyone's mortgage. I'd have no problem not voting for McCain. I've already done so twice. 3 times wouldn't be too much of a stretch for me.

I was thinking how much better off the GOP would have been with Romney about two hours ago.Don't you understand? McCain is a maverick with a record of reform. Romney only understands making businesses profitable and how to succeed economically. Where does that apply? That doesn't sound mavericky. That's greedy Republican Wall St.

I still believe that McCain is the only Republican who can win. If Romney were the nominee all we'd hear all day long is how people like Romney and Bain Capital are the problem with greedy Wall Street. There is nothing Romney could say that would easily refute that Populist message.

I will also continue to believe, even moreso now, that Romney is the person who should be president during this current economic crisis.

[Deadhead Derek]

Everything works in cycles and the GOP's time at the top is done for a while. Unless Pelosi and Co. screw the pooch.unless? or do you mean again? The parody of pelosi on SNL of the bailout was strikingly accurate in my eyes.

[Muji]

fuck the debate, it cost me a new episode of House

[vasili denisov]

Hooray!! Then all of America can become as fucked as Detroit!
Right. Let's model our country after Wasila, the rape / meth capital of the world. Imagine a city...that's just like Tom Sizemore's living room.

[Mustard]

I missed the debate, and therefore won't vote in this poll until I do.

I don't know who won, and I won't take anyone else's word on it.

[Archangel]

The funny thing is that Obama could have spent the debate doing nothing but fart and scratch his arse while McCain was being brilliant and on point - or vice versa - and both sides would still argue that their candidate was better.

"But his farts were perfectly timed!"


This is why two-party systems in this day and age are stupid.

[Genius]

This is why two-party systems in this day and age are stupid.Because it would have been significantly better if there had been some hippy Green dumbass out there relating everything to the destruction of the environment?

[Archangel]

No, because having only two parties leads to loss of objectivity to the point of dogmatism. There's no middle ground, hardly any compromise, just entrenched positions. Everything's in black and white. The fact that thinking adults actually support idiots like Bush and Palin is testament to this.

[heelsguy]

i listened to the debate on the radio for the first half, and it was amazing how even it seemed. then I got home and turned on the TV and it was totally different vibe.

mccain seems so old and wooden on screen. and why did he not go after obama? why not challenge him on pakistan and barney frank and all?

[UNC]

I like that everyone here that likes obama, likes him mostly because he's not old and white. I just hope if Obama wins...when he fucks the country up, I will still have the freedoms that would allow me to tell everyone here "I told you so"

[Willam]

I have to agree with Rover's earlier comment, these are not debates. A debate between candidates would be great. Use the Lincoln-Douglas debate format and let the candidates actually discuss, back and forth, a relevant issue. All we get now are hour long campaign commercials where, if the question doesn't fit what the candidate wants to talk about, they simply ignore the question or spend three seconds mentioning the question and then talk about whatever they want. Granted, this one was better than the last because they supposedly had not seen the questions ahead of time, but I still want to see an ACTUAL DEBATE.

[vasili denisov]

I like that everyone here that likes obama, likes him mostly because he's not old and white.
People, uh, people are not voting Obama because he's not white.

I AM! And after I vote for him, I want him to humiliate me in the ass!

Clearly, uh, clearly your concerns are different from most voters this year.

I want to vote for something BLACK. Blackety black black black. If I could vote for a radial tire this year, I would. Then, I'd want that chocolate ply deep inside me. My ideal ticket would be Obama, a radial tire, and a bucket of driveway sealer. I'd vote for them, and then we'd get together for a group fuck.

[Yelram]

The funny thing is that Obama could have spent the debate doing nothing but fart and scratch his arse while McCain was being brilliant and on point - or vice versa - and both sides would still argue that their candidate was better.

"But his farts were perfectly timed!"


This is why two-party systems in this day and age are stupid.

Yeah what percentage of the greenies are there? And yet they have a stranglehold on your government, yeah we need some "middle ground" like that, so that the whackjob 8 percent of the population can get a platform to spew their jargon.

[Archangel]

Um, mate, the Greens haven't been in government for 3 years now. You really need to get out of your cocoon every now and then.

[Archangel]

I like that everyone here that likes obama, likes him mostly because he's not old and white. I just hope if Obama wins...when he fucks the country up, I will still have the freedoms that would allow me to tell everyone here "I told you so"

Yes, because every intellectual is a communist.

[UNC]

All I hear in the media and on here are comments on his age and shit like that. All I hear about Obama is about how young and handsome he is. You do the math and chime in when you're registered to vote.

[Celtickliq]

Debates are silly. The real winner was the creepy kid with the staring problem closest to Obama. That kid was looking off screen the whole time with the classic facial expression where he has to fart but is using all his will power to not let it slip out.

[Pax Britannia]

I think McCain performed much better this time but then again he's saying conservative shit I like to hear: less spending, lower taxes, more defence spending, strong foreign policy.

However it occurred to me whilst watching that the American people have already had 8 years of all this under Bush and now their quite simply ready for something different.

[VoxAngelikus]

You know... I know that the debates are pretty much glorified press-conferences in a different format. And I thought that neither candidate said anything much differently than the first debate.

But there was one thing that did bother me, and by the end of the debate I wanted to pick up my television and throw it through my window:

First debate, McCain came across like a cranky, angry old man. His posture, his answers, his slightly bullying nature.

Second debate, he came across like a wannabe Ronald Reagan, saying "my friends" ad nauseum, as if that somehow magically endears him to the American public. He even punctuated a few of those "my friends" with Reagan references, just in case you didn't notice what he was trying.

Shit, if I were playing a drinking game where I had to drink every time McCain said "my friends" I would have spent the night in the ER having my stomach pumped.

"My friends" this and "My friends" that. Hey, I know you want to sound less like a bully and more like a nice guy, but repeating something over and over doesn't make it so. I know that this has nothing to do with the meat and potatoes of the debate. On that level, they were close to even, but I thought Obama was just a little bit better.


And Arch....
This is why two-party systems in this day and age are stupid.

See my sig. It's what Washington said about the two-party system in the States

[smahoo]

Obama drove home some major points, particularly regarding foreign policy. The question regarding Pakistan was very telling. McCain sensationalized Obama's stance as an invasion on the Pakistani people as a whole and that blew up in his face when Obama directly addressed that. You could see the positive responses from the 80 selected voters sitting nearby.

Also, on the subject of Iran, Obama was clear and decisive. Again, blowing away the tabloid politicing of McCain. The exercising of diplomacy is the key to resolving issues. No one wants war with Iran, including the Iranians. However, as Obama said, Iran cannot be allowed to produce nuclear weapons and further destabilize the region and he expressed his willingness to keep all options on the table, including military, to ensure that doesn't happen.

Lastly, the question regarding health care clearly demonstrated McCain's inability to grasp one of the key issues of the campaign. Yes, I understand that health care in this country is not a constitutionally granted right, but the President should approach the issue as if it were. McCain sees it as a distraction and that will haunt him on Nov. 4.

[Desperado]

Lastly, the question regarding health care clearly demonstrated McCain's inability to grasp one of the key issues of the campaign. Yes, I understand that health care in this country is not a constitutionally granted right, but the President should approach the issue as if it were. McCain sees it as a distraction and that will haunt him on Nov. 4.

I remember wondering if that was a correct statement he made...


Fact Check: Are business groups critical of McCain's health plan? (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/08/fact-check-are-business-groups-critical-of-mccains-health-plan/)
Posted: 08:15 AM ET
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/images/10/08/art.mccain.10.7.jpg Sen. Obama criticized McCain's health care plane Tuesday night.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif

The Statement
At a presidential debate Tuesday, Oct. 7, in Nashville, Tennessee, Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama criticized the health-care plan of Republican opponent Sen. John McCain. "In fact, just today, business organizations like the United States Chamber of Commerce, which generally are
pretty supportive of Republicans, said that this would lead to the unraveling of the employer-based health care system," Obama said.
Get the facts!

The Facts
McCain's health plan includes a $2,500 tax credit for individuals, or $5,000 for families, but also would end the tax-free status that employer-provided health plans currently have. The McCain campaign says that "families will be able to choose the insurance provider that suits them best and the money would be sent directly to the insurance provider."
Obama's comments appear to refer to an Oct. 7 New York Times article in which R. Bruce Josten, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce's executive vice president for government affairs, called elements of McCain's health plan "very discomforting" to some in the business community. "The private marketplace, in my opinion, is ill-prepared today with an infrastructure for an individual-based health insurance system," he said in the article.
The article paraphrases officials from groups like the Chamber, the Business Roundtable and the National Federation of Independent Businesses saying that eliminating the income-tax exclusion would "accelerate the erosion of employer-sponsored health insurance and do little to reduce the number of
uninsured from 45 million."
Josten says there is a "huge question" whether the $2,500 for individuals or $5,000 for families would be enough to buy the same kind of coverage. According to the article, officials with eight business trade groups contacted by the Times predicted the McCain plan would raise costs and force some employers to stop providing health benefits.
Verdict: True. Obama accurately expresses the tone and content of the news article.

[Kilgore]

For some crazy reason I turned over to Fox news, I think CNN has a commercial. Fox threw up some stat in the 70s or 80s percent of people thought McCain won the debate.

Tommy is my boy, but he had no balls with the time thing.

[Tar Heel]

LOL@ FAUX NEWS!!!! They probably still have McCain leading in the polls.

[Smokestack]

Yeah, Fox News has had McCain and Palin winning all of the debates so far in the post-debate polls. Seems one part of America Obama won't be winning is Hannity's America, where the men are men and the sheep are nervous.

However, Fox did have one of Republican pollster Frank Luntz's focus groups of undecideds/independents and the majority of that group said that Obama had won. I know I hear what I want to hear and I'm sure most ardent Republicans hear what they want to hear, but by all accounts I've seen, Obama won with independents and undecideds last night.

[Da Raider]

The Daily Show made it clear that of the 8% undecided voters, they are all stupid. Within that subset, 12% are idiots, 20% are dumbasses, 10% would lose an arguement to a baby, 15% would get their hand stuck in a pickle jar, 23% numbskulls, and 20% Cubs fans. (with a 95% margin for error).

[Stax]

However, Fox did have one of Republican pollster Frank Luntz's focus groups of undecideds/independents and the majority of that group said that Obama had won. I know I hear what I want to hear and I'm sure most ardent Republicans hear what they want to hear, but by all accounts I've seen, Obama won with independents and undecideds last night.

I saw that, and when even Frank Luntz can't manipulate a focus group to say what he wants you know things are bad for his side.

[fuldstændigamok]

Just out of curiosity, what is the percentage of americans that regularly watch fox news channel?

[Pax Britannia]

If Bill O'Reilly is to believed more people watch Fox than the other networks combined.

[Archangel]

Yeah, Fox News has had McCain and Palin winning all of the debates so far in the post-debate polls. Seems one part of America Obama won't be winning is Hannity's America, where the men are men and the sheep are nervous.

However, Fox did have one of Republican pollster Frank Luntz's focus groups of undecideds/independents and the majority of that group said that Obama had won. I know I hear what I want to hear and I'm sure most ardent Republicans hear what they want to hear, but by all accounts I've seen, Obama won with independents and undecideds last night.

The funny thing is that Obama could have spent the debate doing nothing but fart and scratch his arse while McCain was being brilliant and on point - or vice versa - and both sides would still argue that their candidate was better.

"But his farts were perfectly timed!"


I mean, just how isolated from the rest of the world ARE FOX News viewers, anyway? McCain looked wooden, Palin looked the dumb hick she was, and everybody with two working eyes and a working brain knows that.

I honestly don't get it.

[Stax]

Just out of curiosity, what is the percentage of americans that regularly watch fox news channel?

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2008/10/01/cable-news-ratings-for-tuesday-september-30/5505

Just a random day, they have lots of listings.

[Archangel]

The funny thing is that FOX News viewers and islamic "terr'sts" are probably the most alike group of people on earth. As long as you love God and automatic rifles, and hate everybody who doesn't, you're cool with either.

[Pax Britannia]

The funny thing is that FOX News viewers and islamic "terr'sts" are probably the most alike group of people on earth. As long as you love God and automatic rifles, and hate everybody who doesn't, you're cool with either.

Do you have Fox News in Germany? It's just conservative talk radio brought to the TV screen. It's not that extreme.

[Archangel]

Do you have Fox News in Germany? It's just conservative talk radio brought to the TV screen. It's not that extreme.

A) I lived in the US for quite some time. I've seen some of it there, and learned at a young age how journalism ISN'T done.

B) Conservative talk radio is pretty much the most hateful and ignorant pile of shit outside of jihadist web sites.

[Morfin]

Just a curious note FWIW: According to the NY Times, McCain never mentioned Sarah Palin, but referred to Joe Lieberman four times. Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/08/us/politics/08assess.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin)

[Pax Britannia]

B) Conservative talk radio is pretty much the most hateful and ignorant pile of shit outside of jihadist web sites.

Maybe some of the evangelical stuff but I dont see how Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly compare to radical Muslims.

[Smokestack]

Maybe some of the evangelical stuff but I dont see how Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly compare to radical Muslims.

Maybe not O'Reilly (who still sucks), but Hannity is pretty out there. That amalgamation of flesh and bad ideas peddles in misinformation and smears, and constantly seeks to legitimize the radical views of Coulter, Corsi, and the like.

And, to tie this back to the thread topic, here's Hannity acting incredulous (lying?) after Dick Morris, in a rare fit of honesty, admits that Obama won debate #1:

tSEqzTVmOlo

[Pax Britannia]

Fox isnt the only one playing fast and loose with the news. NBC has been like the Obama campaign office from day 1. Brian Williams of NBC said "it's difficult to cover the campaign of Sen. Barack Obama objectively"

What I think irritates people most about Fox News is that its almost unashamedly right wing. Whereas left wing networks like NBC and CNN still soldier on claiming to offer unbiased reporting. I kinda understand the anger at the hypocrisy surrounding the tag line 'Fair and Balance' but the truth is there is no non biased news network anymore.

[Archangel]

Maybe some of the evangelical stuff but I dont see how Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly compare to radical Muslims.


Mechanisms.

You take the most ignorant audience possible, re-inforce the one thing that binds them together (religion in one case, patriotism in the other), create a bogeyman and a scapegoat, and then feed them fear, hatred, jealousy and paranoia. You may be an unemployed illiterate sitting in a tent/trailer, but at least you're not one of THEM. And by the way, it's THEIR fault that your life sucks.

Listen to radical Muslims talk about Israel and the West, and then listen to Hannity or Coulter talk about terr'sts and lib'rals. You can basically play fill in the blanks, the rhetoric is that similar. Oh, and when the talk about sexual morals, especially homosexuality, it's damn near impossible to keep them apart.

[atoms]

Fox isnt the only one playing fast and loose with the news. NBC has been like the Obama campaign office from day 1. Brian Williams of NBC said "it's difficult to cover the campaign of Sen. Barack Obama objectively"

What I think irritates people most about Fox News is that its almost unashamedly right wing. Whereas left wing networks like NBC and CNN still soldier on claiming to offer unbiased reporting. I kinda understand the anger at the hypocrisy surrounding the tag line 'Fair and Balance' but the truth is there is no non biased news network anymore.


I think Pax is right that all these outlets are a bit biased. But the difference seems to be, while NBC, CNN, NPR do have a bias, they try to show the other side. Does there bias show through much of the time....yea probably. But FOX only tries to show the other side when they have some talking head ready to denigrate the more liberal ideas or the speaker. I guess what I'm saying is that while much of the mainstream news has a bias, they try to overcome it as best as possible. FOX just says fuck it...we like the republican do or die...anyone else is a communist.

[Tar Heel]

I agree. Faux is 100% pro republican agenda on every issue and news report. I specifically said republican and not conservative, because they are not one and the same. If Faux was just conservative, I might be a little more apt to understand why they are the way they are. But it's like they take the republican platform and find every way, truthful or not, to push that agenda. And they do all this while waiving a flag that says Fair and Balenced.

[Desperado]

McCain has some explaining to do about his plan to refinance everyone's mortgage.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/08/news/economy/McCain_mortgage_plan/index.htm?postversion=2008100811


McCain mortgage plan shifts costs to taxpayers

Under McCain's newly announced plan, the government would take the hit for writing down mortgage balances for at-risk borrowers.

(http://money.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/42410.html)





NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Under a mortgage rescue plan announced at the debate Tuesday night by Senator John McCain, much of the burden of paying to keep troubled borrowers in their homes will shift to taxpayers.
McCain's original plan called for lenders to write down the value of these mortgages, and take those losses. McCain unveiled the new $300 billion plan in response to the first question of the debate.
He said, "I would order the Secretary of Treasury to immediately buy up the bad home loan mortgages in America and renegotiate at the new value of those homes, at the diminished values of those homes, and let people make those - be able to make those payments and stay in their homes."
The government would convert failing mortgages into low-interest, FHA-insured loans.
"Millions of borrowers" would be eligible for the program, dubbed the American Homeownership Resurgence Plan, according to McCain economic advisor, Doug Holtz-Eakin.
To qualify, homeowners would have to be delinquent in their payments already, or be likely to fall behind in the near future. They would have to live in the home in question - no investment properties would be eligible - and have had demonstrated their credit-worthiness when they purchased the property by putting down a substantial down payment and by providing documentation of their income and assets - no liar loans.
Holtz-Eakin said on a conference call Wednesday that the McCain plan could be put into place quickly because the groundwork and the authority for it has already been provided by last week's $700 billion bailout bill, the Hope for Homeowners program authorized by the housing rescue bill passed in July, and the government takeover of mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
This proposal is strikingly different from both McCain's original idea, and from the housing rescue bill adopted by Congress in July.
Congress struggled for months to pass the Hope for Homeowners rescue plan for mortgage borrowers. To make it palatable to both conservative Republicans and ordinary taxpayers, Hope for Homeowners requires that lenders write down mortgage balances to 90% of a home's current market value to qualify for a FHA-insured refinancing. The lenders would then take the loss on the difference between the current value and the mortgage balance.
"[McCain's] original plan relied on lenders taking the hit," said Holtz-Eakin. "This bypasses that step."
Instead, taxpayers pay for it, under the funding already provided by the $700 billion bailout bill.
That could prove to be very unpopular with homeowners who did not take on too much debt and so would not be eligible for help, as well as ordinary Americans who objected to the Hope for Homeowners plan as a bail out for delinquent borrowers and irresponsible lenders. http://i.cdn.turner.com/money/images/bug.gif (http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/08/news/economy/McCain_mortgage_plan/index.htm?postversion=2008100811#TOP)

[john750sradd]

maccain

[Tar Heel]

You're a retard.

At least spell his name right.

[Pax Britannia]

I was going to make a cruel John McCain joke then but I couldnt do it.

[BIG PIZZLE]

Go ahead, he'll never see it. He doesnt know how to use a computer.

[halfabubbleoff]

I had to go with calling it a draw. Nothing really exciting.

McCain did show more substance getting into some details and hard numbers, but he offset that by taking the petty jabs at Obama throughout.

[Pax Britannia]

Ok then. Let me set this up:

maccain

You're a retard.

At least spell his name right.

Look at the screen name, it probably is John McCain! He cant lift his arms up high enough to use the keyboard properly.

[doors43]

I lean towards saying Obama won for a few reasons. I honestly found McCain's constant use of the words "my friends" a bit condescending because we all fucking know we're not his friends. We're not even his equals.

Obama answered the questions a little more directly, although both of them seemed to forget at times they were in a town hall style q&A as opposed to the at the podium debate.

Obama seemed to have an actual plan for his proposed courses of action, whereas McCain seemed to just spout off what he'd like to accomplish, but not really how.

Plus, Obama always scores points with me when he insists on opening up dialogue with other countries, getting healthcare to people and raising taxes on the top tier of wealth. I don't know if he mentioned it last night, but in the first debate, when he said he wanted to eliminate the billions of dollars that insurance companies get, I was fucking elated.

What nobody addressed, though, and it pertains to healthcare -- is how are we going to lower healthcare costs drastically if doctors are paying astronimical prices for malpractice insurance because they're always being sued? That gets passed on in their billing, too.

[Archangel]

What nobody addressed, though, and it pertains to healthcare -- is how are we going to lower healthcare costs drastically if doctors are paying astronimical prices for malpractice insurance because they're always being sued? That gets passed on in their billing, too.

As The Bard said...


The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers!

[redsox39]

Who Won? "That One"

[heelsguy]

Fox isnt the only one playing fast and loose with the news. NBC has been like the Obama campaign office from day 1. Brian Williams of NBC said "it's difficult to cover the campaign of Sen. Barack Obama objectively"

What I think irritates people most about Fox News is that its almost unashamedly right wing. Whereas left wing networks like NBC and CNN still soldier on claiming to offer unbiased reporting. I kinda understand the anger at the hypocrisy surrounding the tag line 'Fair and Balance' but the truth is there is no non biased news network anymore.


no, this is how I see it:

from 6 a.m. with Joe Scarborough's "Morning Joe", until 7 pm with Chris matthews' "Hardball", I prefer MSNBC over Foxnews. During the daytime hours Foxnews is definitely more biased and slanted....

...But once MSNBC's "Countdown" comes on at 8 pm. No impartial observer can tell me MSNBC is not MORE biased than Fox for the next 3 hours. At least O'Reilly presents more than just his point of view and is not afraid at all to blame republicans and Bush. He has blown both out of the water over this financial mess. Compare that with MSNBC starting at 8 pm and Fox is practically PBS in comparison...

[doors43]

As The Bard said...

Well... I want to see malpractice lawsuits better screened, but I also work in a medical malpractice law firm and the firm rakes in millions of dollars... but they turn away more cases than they take (they have an on-staff doctor who reviews every case before they take it.). They're not going to sue a doctor if the doctor did nothing wrong. If more people took that approach and only sued when the doctor actually seriously fucked up, it would be better.

[BIG PIZZLE]

If all the lawyers are dead then where are we going to find politicians? PTA meetings?

[BIG PIZZLE]

Ok then. Let me set this up:Look at the screen name, it probably is John McCain! He cant lift his arms up high enough to use the keyboard properly.That's complete horseshit btw. If the motherfucker can lift his arms to write at a desk, he can lift his arms to type on a computer. As the other great bard, Flava Flave once said, "Dont believe the hype!" He cant use a computer because he's old and is out of touch with the 21st century, like most senators.

[ADD]

If all the lawyers are dead then where are we going to find politicians? PTA meetings?

In a van at hockey practice...

[halfabubbleoff]

... They're not going to sue a doctor if the doctor did nothing wrong. If more people took that approach and only sued when the doctor actually seriously fucked up, it would be better.

I agree. I was raised around the medical profession. Malpractice suits are out of hand. I only wish more malpractice firms were as selective as yours.

Unfortunately, more than half of the suits your firm turns away are taken up by other, less selective firms out for the quick settlement buck.

[doors43]

In a van at hockey practice...

Idiot governors of practically Canadian provinces don't count.

I mean, really -- what the FUCK does she know about? I really hate her. I would have been okay with McCain winning had he chosen almost anyone else (except Huckabee).

[smahoo]

Who Won? "That One"

not you, tom

[VoxAngelikus]

Who Won? "That Black One"

[Morfin]

As The Bard said...
Originally Posted by Henry VI, Pt 2, Act 4, Scene 2
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers!

Interestingly (to a geek like me and probably to Arch), that quote comes right smack dab in the middle of a scene where one actor, discussing what he would do as king, is making all sorts of political promises to curry favor with the masses in the same vein as promising lower taxes, etc.

[Gary_Busey]

Factcheck for last night's debate:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/162940

[Archangel]

Idiot governors of practically Canadian provinces don't count.

I mean, really -- what the FUCK does she know about?

Guns and Jesus, and the jury's still out on the latter.

[Pax Britannia]

Guns and Jesus, and the jury's still out on the latter.

She knows about Jeezus.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii85/Raptor08_2008/downloadblog.jpg

[Archangel]

The above picture basically summarises all of my invectives against American Christianity in one page. Brilliant.

[Archangel]

And I'm pretty sure that the bloke on the right is an illiterate douche bag.

[Titus_Pullo]

I still don't get all the hate of Fox News. They lean right, but CNN, NBC, ABC anc CBS all lean left.

[Lone Wolf]

I still don't get all the hate of Fox News. They lean right, but CNN, NBC, ABC anc CBS all lean left.

You really think so? I would say that MSNBC leans left, but the rest kind of just report whatever is being fed to them.

[taters]

Could I be referred to as 'That One' from this day forth? That One made McCain look like a fucking fool.

Oh yea, Titus, ABC most certainly lean to the right, almost as far as Fox. CNN was medium, but is starting to attempt to compete with Fox's 'right wing, believe whatever we tell you' market.

[Titus_Pullo]

I always thought Dan Rather at CBS despised the GOP years ago when I was a Democrat 18 year old. We all know how his relationship with them ended. I can't really bring myself to watch Katie Couric.

[Lone Wolf]

McCain sounded winded or short of breath when he started walking around while talking. I don't know if I should have been as surprised as I was by this or not.

[Titus_Pullo]

The viagra increases respiration.

[Mustard]

I didn't realize that viagra affected the whole body?

I've seen some clips, and it looks like poor John is suffering from rigermortis.

[WigglingWii]

John McCain seemed so angry last night I thought his head was going to blow off.

[vasili denisov]

I still don't get all the hate of Fox News. They lean right, but CNN, NBC, ABC anc CBS all lean left.
Yes, but those places have provided countless hours of entertainment with their Charlie Sheen, "Numb3456XJ7784rs", and the smoke monster, while Anderson Cooper is so dreamy it makes my ass hurt.

[Pollo]

maccain

ElvisWong, is that you?

You really think so? I would say that MSNBC leans left, but the rest kind of just report whatever is being fed to them.

I'm pretty convinced MSNBC is the most left-wing network. their McCain attack ad showing his time with cancer was pretty uncalled for, IMO. apparently Fox went after them on that commercial (or so O'Reilly said on his show), and NBC decided to take it down.

[taters]

Fox is beyond right wing. They actually had commentators recommending assassination of the Dem Candidate, by name. (Liz Trotta) She didnt apologize for it, but claimed it was a joke. Seriously, since when can a news network call for assasinations? Especially one run by a non-american.

[heelsguy]

ElvisWong, is that you?



I'm pretty convinced MSNBC is the most left-wing network.


http://www.newsmeat.com/fec/bystate_detail.php?st=CT&last=immelt&first=jeffrey

[Axel]

maccainThis guy is a mole: he’s obviously here only to foster a certain stereotype about the most zealous GOP supporters.

[DeMartini Sands]

Obama was better, far more articulate, however the whole debate was a drag.......

[freegood]

This debate and its material was mostly a rehash of the first one.

[Ghostrider]

McCain really pissed me off when he said he would buy up bad loans and offer teh home owner a more secure mortgage at the new devalued home value. WHat about those of us that were smart enough to buy what we could afford using a conventional 30 year Mortgage. Our home values are dropping, perhaps McCain could just lop off the new value of our home versus the original value from our mortgages. I hate that I have to pay for everyone elses stupidity. Also the local government is quick to raise property taxes unless you take time off work and go to city hall and fight them. So if we can all agree home values are dropping perhpas property taxes should as well???

[Pollo]

for those that didn't see it/want to watch it again, here's the video:

VkBqLBsu-o4

[Lone Wolf]

How much better would this debate have been if Tim Russurt was in the house instead of Brokaw? I'm saying much better.

[Archangel]

http://www.qffintl.com/pdf/july_2006/images/qf07_pot1_4c.jpg

[eleveneighteen]

The debate had a pretty somber tone, really. At this point, Obama just needs to be in a prevent defense. He's got a big lead and just needs to milk the clock.

[Candycane]

I'm sure it's been said before but most people see things differently if you support one side or the other. Unless you take a grass roots approach to politics your perception and view will most certainly be askew. I can already tell you that I personally think Obama will "win" all the debates , but that's my opinion and I am of course biased.