If McCain wins the presidency, would you leave the country, and if so, where?

[taters]

This is not a new idea or subject I made up, its been tossed around since the 04 elections, and is even a joke subject on Realtime with Bill Maher.

So, if McCain wins the presidency, would you leave the country or stay and huff it out with the economy and socio-political atmosphere the way it is? If you would leave, where would you go to?

There are too many nations to put up, so Ill put up the top choices, then clump the rest in groups.

[smahoo]

I'll leave only after he dies in office and then I'm heading to Ireland

[Da Raider]

I think Bill Maher should kill himself. He likes to pretend that he is a Libertarian when in reality he's a lefty.

He gives Libertarians a bad name.

[Limp]

What a fucking joke.

[Pox]

What is the conservative version of Canada?

[taters]

I think Bill Maher should kill himself. He likes to pretend that he is a Libertarian when in reality he's a lefty.

He gives Libertarians a bad name.

Clearly you dont know what libertarians are. Libertarianism is not a 'right' or 'left' wing concept, it has elements of both sides.

Civil Libertarianism
Economic Libertarianism
Social Libertarianism
Anarchic Libertarianism

etc


Dont rely on what Hannity, O Reilly and other so called fox-libertarians tell you. Some of the main tenants of libertarianism tend to be things they oppose greatly (freedom of abortion, freedom of civil liberties, freedom of speech, no taxing of unpopular war, no religion in politics, etc etc). Also, ignore the so-called 'american libertarian' party. Its a joke, and when it comes down to it, its supporters only real concern is cutting taxes to things they dont like, not things they do.

[NOTKyle]

You're a little melodramatic.

[Archangel]

I didn't leave Germany for 7 years of socialist-green rule (not entirely true, I was in the US, off and on, for around 2 of them).


Stay the fuck at home.

[Rover]

Promises, promises. Every election, it's the same old promises.

[taters]

You're a little melodramatic.

^ Concerning Libertarianism?

[Angry Ass Messican Dude]

This is the stupidest fucking thread in the history of stupid fucking threads.

I seriously hate people like you.

[Pax Britannia]

If Brown wins in 2010 I was planning to move to America. I guess if Obama's there i'll have to go to Diet America (Canada).

[taters]

I didn't leave Germany for 7 years of socialist-green rule (not entirely true, I was in the US, off and on, for around 2 of them).


Stay the fuck at home.


Yea...but thats Germany. Germany's worst days are behind it, and if it were those days, Im pretty sure you would have left. No matter who wins in that country, there are far more social safety nets for the poor, working and middle class than we could hope for.

Devils advocate...except for the part about germanys worst days.

EG - Then go finishing masterbating and stop bothering everyone else whos reading it. Doucehbag.

[mongo]

This is the stupidest fucking thread in the history of stupid fucking threads.

I seriously hate people like you.

[Tar Heel]

This is not a new idea or subject I made up, its been tossed around since the 04 elections, and is even a joke subject on Realtime with Bill Maher.

So, if McCain wins the presidency, would you leave the country or stay and huff it out with the economy and socio-political atmosphere the way it is? If you would leave, where would you go to?

There are too many nations to put up, so Ill put up the top choices, then clump the rest in groups.

What kind of faggot threatens to leave the country if the wrong president gets elected?

[Archangel]

there are far more social safety nets for the poor, working and middle class than we could hope for.

Which is one of the reasons why I might have wanted to leave.

"Illiterate? Terrorist? Criminal? Plain lazy? Come to Germany, we'll give you $1,200/month to sit around and talk about how much we infidels suck!"

[taters]

What kind of faggot threatens to leave the country if the wrong president gets elected?



I dont think he would be the 'wrong' president, since he would be elected. But people would leave if they felt

1- The elected president is going to make the economic situation worst (hampering their ability to live the life they choose or for their children) and it would be better to start again somewhere else (People in massive debt, for example, leave their debts when they leave the country)

2- They feel that their liberties will be hampered or ignored by the elected president.

3- In protest.


Its happened countless times in history. It happened in Cuba with Casto, in Russia with Lenin, In china with Mao, in germany with hitler, in the American South with Lincoln, in South Africa with the end of apartheid.

Justifiable reasons aside, its happened repeatedly though history.

[TheImpossibleMan]

People who think it's "retarded" to want to leave a country based on who is elected need to look at history, i.e.

'God, Hitler's anti-Jewish rhetoric is really scary to me. I think if he stays in power much longer I'll leave the country.

FUCK YOU! Aren't you in it for the long haul? God, I can't believe you'd leave your country.'

You know? An awful lot of people have been killed throughout history because they didn't leave their country when they had the chance. Hell, I'm reading a story right now about how a family regretted not leaving Iran when the religious revolution took place.

[freegood]

McCain would be a decent leader, but if he even mentions a 1 term pledge, he's pretty much a lame duck President.

I'll hit the panic button if Palin manages to get sworn in after McCain gets mistaken for a moose on some unfortunate helicopter hunting outing.

[Archangel]

If Palin were to become president, the question would have to be, "to which planet would you flee?"

[Mr. Brown]

If Brown wins in 2010 I was planning to move to America. I guess if Obama's there i'll have to go to Diet America (Canada).
I can't run until 2018 but thanks for the endorsement

[Phil Theehor]

What kind of faggot threatens to leave the country if the wrong president gets elected?


This question is a throwback to the 2000 & 2004 elections. A good-sized group of Hollywood douchebags (if memory serves, it was the Alec Baldwin, Babs Streisand contingent) threatened to leave to U.S. if Bush were elected.

What they were saying is "we're such spoiled little bitches that if we don't get our way (and by the way, we're smarter than you), we're taking our ball and leaving."

We waited patiently for them to GTFO, but the spineless twerps never fulfilled their promises.

[Phil Theehor]

People who think it's "retarded" to want to leave a country based on who is elected need to look at history, i.e.

'God, Hitler's anti-Jewish rhetoric is really scary to me. I think if he stays in power much longer I'll leave the country.

FUCK YOU! Aren't you in it for the long haul? God, I can't believe you'd leave your country.'

You know? An awful lot of people have been killed throughout history because they didn't leave their country when they had the chance. Hell, I'm reading a story right now about how a family regretted not leaving Iran when the religious revolution took place.

Somebody get TiM his ritalyn. Regardless of how you feel about McCain, he's not Khomeni and he's not Hitler.

Yes, numbnuts, this is a retarded question.

[taters]

Choosing to stay in 2004 apparently paid off. The polls are showing a possible landslide victory for their candidate.

Somebody get TiM his ritalyn. Regardless of how you feel about McCain, he's not Khomeni and he's not Hitler.


Thats what they said about Pinochet, Trujillo and Franco (similar sayings), and look how well those regimes turned out.

[STDSkillz]

The only way I'd leave America is if my job got outsourced to somewhere else.

...Or if we kept getting nuked by the Russians.

[Phil Theehor]

Choosing to stay in 2004 apparently paid off. The polls are showing a possible landslide victory for their candidate.



Thats what they said about Pinochet, Trujillo and Franco (similar sayings), and look how well those regimes turned out.

You know that I appreciate your fresh perspective on things, Tates, but come on. Do you think Johnny Mac is a fascist? I know you're no fan of the GOP, but do you really not see a difference between him and the people you name?

[Stax]

The concept of leaving the US if a particular person wins is dumb. If for no other reason than that suggests that an individual president has sufficient power to undermine the entire system, and even the most negatively overreaching presidents (Nixon, W Bush) haven't really brought the sky down.

[Yelram]

Where is the "quit your liberal whining" option?

Where is the poll asking "If Obama wins, how many months until the middle east erupts into madness"

[Tar Heel]

The poll should say:
"If someone told you that they would leave the country if some dude gets elected, would you punch them in their whiney bitch ass face?"

[taters]

You know that I appreciate your fresh perspective on things, Tates, but come on. Do you think Johnny Mac is a fascist? I know you're know fan of the GOP, but do you really not see a difference between him and the people you name?


Nah, Im just playing the advocate. I doubt McCain would really do...well ANYTHING that changes the current status quo. No pull one way or the other. Not saying thats a good thing at all, hence why (among other reasons) Im voting Obama. I actually used to like McCain most among republicans. If he ran with Ron Paul, I actually would not have minded too much of who won the election (still would vote obama over them, but may have voted them over hillary)

Its the chance of Palin, the 'Bushess', taking over that scares the shit out of me. I dont know what the fuck that woman is capable of, and put nothing past her.

That being said, history is filled with people who were smart enough to leave their home country after large scale political change, or a final straw of political/economic change. Germany, Russia, Cuba, South Africa, England (cant believe none of you know how and why states like Maryland were settled), Quebec, Mexico, hong kong, macau, spain, etc

Where is the "quit your liberal whining" option?


Lets talk about 'whining' after the election, for the first 4 years of the Obama presidency. Im sure we'll hear a few old tunes from the right we havent heard since clinton.

[Da Raider]

Clearly you dont know what libertarians are. Libertarianism is not a 'right' or 'left' wing concept, it has elements of both sides.

Civil Libertarianism
Economic Libertarianism
Social Libertarianism
Anarchic Libertarianism

etc


Dont rely on what Hannity, O Reilly and other so called fox-libertarians tell you. Some of the main tenants of libertarianism tend to be things they oppose greatly (freedom of abortion, freedom of civil liberties, freedom of speech, no taxing of unpopular war, no religion in politics, etc etc). Also, ignore the so-called 'american libertarian' party. Its a joke, and when it comes down to it, its supporters only real concern is cutting taxes to things they dont like, not things they do.

Tater, you assume that anyone who has a hint of disagreeing with you drinks the Fox news coolaid. I know what the fuck a Libertarian is because I am one. Have you ever read Reason? That's a pretty good place to start.

[Claydon]

God, this is such a stupid fucking thread. Any of you that suggested you are leaving are not leaving. This is not the NAZI party potentially coming into power or anything you stupid shits. However the fact that this loaded poll is created by our resident model of affirmative action is of little surprise.

[Mustard]

For a person to say that they would leave if a person got elected, I would say to them that they are far too reactionary, and haven't thought things through properly.

So don't leave just because somebody you don't prefer gets elected. If you are thinking about leaving, then you need to figure out every single possible angle imaginable. Such as, if the place you're moving to is better than the place you are now, and if you will do better given their type of government, tax policies, personal freedoms, educational opportunites for the kids, healthcare, and everything else I didn't mention. More importantly, in my mind, than any of that (except for personal freedoms) is what kind of job and income opportunities are there in the place you are looking at moving. Will you be able to survive, even thrive, there, as well as you could here in the US?

Come on people, this is simple. If you're going to move out of the US, at least use some good logic and reasoning before you jump off the deep end and commit to moving. And for the love of God, don't leave just because you have a personal problem with the President. That reason is no good, and only serves to make you come across as petty and reactionary.

[Genius]

If I could afford to live a life of leisure in pretty much any of those places, I'd probably do it no matter who was president.

[Hanover Fist]

Wait are we talking about leaving the pro-America part of America or just America as a whole because I'm a little confused.

[Genius]

Wait are we talking about leaving the pro-America part of America or just America as a whole because I'm a little confused.
Now I'm confused.

[Angry Ass Messican Dude]

Yeah I'm sure McCain is going to burn some Jews and enslave some Negroes.

He only fought for and was tortured to uphold the constitution.

What exactly have you guys done for it?

[Claydon]

Yeah I'm sure McCain is going to burn some Jews and enslave some Negroes.

He only fought for and was tortured to uphold the constitution.

What exactly have you guys done for it?

Well, Whoopi Goldberg did ask him if elected if he would bring back slavery.

[Hanover Fist]

Now I'm confused.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/21/palin.sitroom/index.html?eref=ib_topstories

Palin also apologized Tuesday for any misunderstanding caused when she referred last week to the patriotic values of "the real America" and "pro-America areas of this great nation."

Democrats and others criticized Palin for seeming to imply that some parts of the country are more patriotic than others.


Sheesh If I have to explain it.......

[Genius]

The people that suggested they would move because of McCain were Okie and Tater. Do they have to represent the Left here? That can't be fair.

[Hanover Fist]

The people that suggested they would move because of McCain were Okie and Tater. Do they have to represent the Left here? That can't be fair.

I base all my judgements about the left on Okie, Tater and Colmes.

[Gary_Busey]

I think this lady is from "pro-America" America.

34e_1224662447

[Mustard]

The people that suggested they would move because of McCain were Okie and Tater. Do they have to represent the Left here? That can't be fair.
Every group has their fruit loops.

Thankfully I feel that since they are usually so outspoken that most people realize that for the most part, they really don't speak for the majority, even if they happen to be part of the majority. Does that make any sense? It made sense in my mind, but getting that from there to GMF may not have worked the best...

[Genius]

I base all my judgements about the left on Okie, Tater and Colmes.
This is also the answer to the question, "what would you get if the MSNBC truck crashed into the Fox News truck?".

Okie, Tater, and Colmes.

[Debo]

I would move if I got a sweet job in a different country. But I am not leaving just because BO is in the WH.

On a different note, I might move out of NY if they start raising taxes (NY taxes). I would probably head to TX or FL since they are state tax free.

[Hanover Fist]

I would move if I got a sweet job in a different country. But I am not leaving just because BO is in the WH.

On a different note, I might move out of NY if they start raising taxes (NY taxes). I would probably head to TX or FL since they are state tax free.

Don't forget Alaska, New Hampshire, Tennessee, South Dakota, Washington, Nevada and Wyoming as states that have no state income taxes.

[White Rhino]

it does not matter who wins the presidency, we are fucked economically. Some are predicting the next few years to be the worst the world has seen economically. Even worse than the great depression. Saw that on pbs the other night but can't remember the guys name they were interviewing. So, I might be fucked. If the economy gets worse, than not many people will be building houses. Especially the high end custom homes that I build. Looks like I might be heading back to the oil business. Or the bootlegging business. Those two businesses will always be in high demand. Yay we are fucked! Thank you, you fucking morones that bought houses you can't afford. ( I know that is not the whole reason the econimy is fucked I just wanted to blame someone.)

[Debo]

Don't forget Alaska, New Hampshire, Tennessee, South Dakota, Washington, Nevada and Wyoming as states that have no state income taxes.

I would consider TN or maybe NV, but I am not moving to WA, SD or WY.

I grew up in FL, so moving back there isn't that big of a deal for me. TX is on the list because there are a decent number of finance jobs in Dallas.

[taters]

God, this is such a stupid fucking thread. Any of you that suggested you are leaving are not leaving. This is not the NAZI party potentially coming into power or anything you stupid shits. However the fact that this loaded poll is created by our resident model of affirmative action is of little surprise.

Are you fucking retarded, I already said, fear of ethnic cleansing is NOT THE ONLY REASON PEOPLE EMMIGRATE.

Unless you are native american or black, odds are your ancestors came here from somewhere else because they thought their LIVES WOULD BE BETTER IN AMERICA.

So its not so crazy to think of this.

[CarsyCarsten]

I think this lady is from "pro-America" America.

34e_1224662447


Watch out! This beautiful, charming, intelligent lady could run for President next term!

[JT]

I'm out regardless.

[Archetype]

I find it funny that all the options assume McCain will be a shitty president, even the nos.

[Feng]

I'd go some where as far away and as cut off from America as possible... Some place totally un-American... I'd move to Alaska...

[VoxAngelikus]

I don't think that this thread is phrased properly. What should make people angry is if McCain - or Obama - wins the Presidency, and there are allegations of voter fraud for a third consecutive election.

I hate complacent Americans who have sat through the Reign of Bush whining that he was a criminal, fantasizing about impeachment and doing nothing productive besides threatening to leave the country.

If McCain or Obama wins and there are allegations of voter fraud, what are you going to do? Because regardless of whether you think Obama is a doucheface or McCain is a crotchety spoiled brat, the fact of the matter is that if either one wins fairly, they will each do a capable job in office. But if they are getting elected unfairly, that is where the American public should stand up for themselves.

Probably, we will all just grind our teeth. Rant to our like-minded buddies and then... Nothing. We'll go on watching movies, maybe take a stab at something more radical, like seeing what news sources from other countries have to say about the U.S. We might just turn off the TV for a day or so and sit there and wonder, what, if anything can be done. Then the next episode of your favorite show will come on, or your team will have a big game, or you'll hit a glitch at work or school and then... nothing.

Our democratically unelected leader will do whatever he pleases and the world will go on be raped and pillaged and bombed into oblivion while you watch TV.

You could take to the streets in the millions. Like the Venezuelans did when Hugo Chavez was stolen from them. You could band together and march on the Capital. Not unlike the people of Argentina did when their economy collapsed due to the corruption of its leaders, both national and international. You'll take to the streets and march en masse and you won't take 'No' for an answer. Like the people of Iraq have been doing these past few days, in hopes of sending their occupiers home.

You'll remember what it means to be free, to be revolutionary. You'll remember that the country belongs to its people, not to its corporations. You won't back down if they institute martial law. Because it's your country, the country of your forefathers, the country of your children, and they deserve the truth. They deserve justice. You won't back down until the true leader of your country has taken power and the rest, the thieves, are prosecuted for their crimes.

When all is done you will have recalled what it is to not just be an American, but to be a person deserving of democracy. You will be, once again, proud to call America your homeland. Instead of just whining about leaving the country.

[Oggie]

What Vox said...and I'd head to Japan.

[freegood]

Konichiwa bitches

[hatepoppy]

where's the option for 'what the fuck does it matter, anyway?'

[Da Raider]

I don't think that this thread is phrased properly. What should make people angry is if McCain - or Obama - wins the Presidency, and there are allegations of voter fraud for a third consecutive election.

I hate complacent Americans who have sat through the Reign of Bush whining that he was a criminal, fantasizing about impeachment and doing nothing productive besides threatening to leave the country.

If McCain or Obama wins and there are allegations of voter fraud, what are you going to do? Because regardless of whether you think Obama is a doucheface or McCain is a crotchety spoiled brat, the fact of the matter is that if either one wins fairly, they will each do a capable job in office. But if they are getting elected unfairly, that is where the American public should stand up for themselves.

Probably, we will all just grind our teeth. Rant to our like-minded buddies and then... Nothing. We'll go on watching movies, maybe take a stab at something more radical, like seeing what news sources from other countries have to say about the U.S. We might just turn off the TV for a day or so and sit there and wonder, what, if anything can be done. Then the next episode of your favorite show will come on, or your team will have a big game, or you'll hit a glitch at work or school and then... nothing.

Our democratically unelected leader will do whatever he pleases and the world will go on be raped and pillaged and bombed into oblivion while you watch TV.

You could take to the streets in the millions. Like the Venezuelans did when Hugo Chavez was stolen from them. You could band together and march on the Capital. Not unlike the people of Argentina did when their economy collapsed due to the corruption of its leaders, both national and international. You'll take to the streets and march en masse and you won't take 'No' for an answer. Like the people of Iraq have been doing these past few days, in hopes of sending their occupiers home.

You'll remember what it means to be free, to be revolutionary. You'll remember that the country belongs to its people, not to its corporations. You won't back down if they institute martial law. Because it's your country, the country of your forefathers, the country of your children, and they deserve the truth. They deserve justice. You won't back down until the true leader of your country has taken power and the rest, the thieves, are prosecuted for their crimes.

When all is done you will have recalled what it is to not just be an American, but to be a person deserving of democracy. You will be, once again, proud to call America your homeland. Instead of just whining about leaving the country.

Vox's rant is hypocritical because all he will do is try and improve his Simon highscore. While I will be doing the Patriotic thing and drinking vast quantities of American produced alcoholic beverages (sorry Bud and Miller!). Take that power structure! Take that government elite! I will not stand down!

[hatepoppy]

I don't think that this thread is phrased properly. What should make people angry is if McCain - or Obama - wins the Presidency, and there are allegations of voter fraud for a third consecutive election.

I hate complacent Americans who have sat through the Reign of Bush whining that he was a criminal, fantasizing about impeachment and doing nothing productive besides threatening to leave the country.

If McCain or Obama wins and there are allegations of voter fraud, what are you going to do? Because regardless of whether you think Obama is a doucheface or McCain is a crotchety spoiled brat, the fact of the matter is that if either one wins fairly, they will each do a capable job in office. But if they are getting elected unfairly, that is where the American public should stand up for themselves.

Probably, we will all just grind our teeth. Rant to our like-minded buddies and then... Nothing. We'll go on watching movies, maybe take a stab at something more radical, like seeing what news sources from other countries have to say about the U.S. We might just turn off the TV for a day or so and sit there and wonder, what, if anything can be done. Then the next episode of your favorite show will come on, or your team will have a big game, or you'll hit a glitch at work or school and then... nothing.

Our democratically unelected leader will do whatever he pleases and the world will go on be raped and pillaged and bombed into oblivion while you watch TV.

You could take to the streets in the millions. Like the Venezuelans did when Hugo Chavez was stolen from them. You could band together and march on the Capital. Not unlike the people of Argentina did when their economy collapsed due to the corruption of its leaders, both national and international. You'll take to the streets and march en masse and you won't take 'No' for an answer. Like the people of Iraq have been doing these past few days, in hopes of sending their occupiers home.

You'll remember what it means to be free, to be revolutionary. You'll remember that the country belongs to its people, not to its corporations. You won't back down if they institute martial law. Because it's your country, the country of your forefathers, the country of your children, and they deserve the truth. They deserve justice. You won't back down until the true leader of your country has taken power and the rest, the thieves, are prosecuted for their crimes.

When all is done you will have recalled what it is to not just be an American, but to be a person deserving of democracy. You will be, once again, proud to call America your homeland. Instead of just whining about leaving the country.
you put free thinking people in the position of 'must-act' in an effort to smoke them out. by the time anything reaches the point of martial law, anyone unwilling to get in line and give away your life will have their life taken forcibly. it's a means by which a ruling body can endure a short-term battle with (deliberately) technologically and strategically inferior opponents to come out victorious in the end with a once again docile and obedient populace. it's a cleansing is all. depopulation, and beyond that, the selective depopulation of those that pose a threat to the comfort of the ruling elite.

[VoxAngelikus]

I'm just saying that it's not the people, it's the process. McCain/Palin or Obama/Biden will each do a fine job, regardless of whether or not you like them. How they get into office is what should upset people. If there is yet another dispute over whether or not the next President is democratically elected, that should piss people off. That should make people do more than make empty "I'm going to leave the country" promises. But in this country, people will complain for a day, maybe a week, and then get distracted by trips to the mall, Monday Night Football or American Idol.

People should take their rights a lot more seriously than we do. We're all guilty of this.

Otherwise, there will be no roses left. Not for anyone.


EDIT: And Barack Obama and John McCain wish they had my Simon high score.

[fuldstændigamok]

Why should I leave my country if you people are stupid enough to elect an insane old fart as your president?

[Desperado]

I'm just saying that it's not the people, it's the process. McCain/Palin or Obama/Biden will each do a fine job, regardless of whether or not you like them. .


That is wishful thinking... That is the line that divides supporters for each party, some people think Obama will do horrible ,some think the same about McCain. I think everyone agrees that Palin would do TERRIBLE!!!

[Da Raider]

Why should I leave my country if you people are stupid enough to elect an insane old fart as your president?

I'm pretty sure that you already left your country.

[fuldstændigamok]

That is wishful thinking... That is the line that divides supporters for each party, some people think Obama will do horrible ,some think the same about McCain. I think everyone agrees that Palin would do TERRIBLE!!!

You know, if you put that down to the GMF scale, you realise that the biggest supporters of the palin are hanover, EG, rover (funny enough in their own), then, you have TEH (un)funny idiot, yelram, also know as the comic relief, and then the ultimate stupidator, the guy posting straight out of his ass, redsodom39. Credibility is not really their forte, is it? Let them spit their BS and cry for the next 4 years. Who gives a shit about what they think, anyway?

[TheImpossibleMan]

Somebody get TiM his ritalyn. Regardless of how you feel about McCain, he's not Khomeni and he's not Hitler.

Yes, numbnuts, this is a retarded question.
I would never consider leaving the country if McCain won, because I have a lot of respect for McCain and rather like him. But Tarheel seemed to be taking the stance of 'don't leave under any circumstance, no matter who is elected,' which is a sentiment I disagree with.

[hatepoppy]

leave teh country? to go to a different side of teh same coin?

all governments are just different flavors of the same kool-aid.

[Archangel]

Yeah, but others give you healthcare and stuff.

[mongo]

fact: if mccain does win, not one of you pussies will actually leave.

[hatepoppy]

Yeah, but others give you healthcare and stuff.

do they have my family? cubs games? high-fructose corn syrup?

no?

then i'll pass. ive long resigned myself to the fact that i have no real control over the big picture, i can make no impact, without making significant sacrifices. my loyalty is not to country or religion, it's to family and personal responsibility.

i think i could get through most anything (like being separated from my family) alone. what about my fiancee? my kid? knowing them, they need their family. they also need me to make bank. should i allow some grandiose (and flawed by definition) picture of the world power structure to consume me to the point that i must leave the country out of protest, or go on some gadsby-esque hunger strike to take a shot at the man, i would be shirking my responsibility as provider and taking away time spent w my family.

so like i said originally, where's the box for 'what the fuck does it matter?'

[Archangel]

Right there...

[Angry Ass Messican Dude]

You know, if you put that down to the GMF scale, you realise that the biggest supporters of the palin are hanover, EG, rover (funny enough in their own), then, you have TEH (un)funny idiot, yelram, also know as the comic relief, and then the ultimate stupidator, the guy posting straight out of his ass, redsodom39. Credibility is not really their forte, is it? Let them spit their BS and cry for the next 4 years. Who gives a shit about what they think, anyway?


I have no idea what you just said other than my name is in it.

[Claydon]

Yeah, but others give you healthcare and stuff.

Ummmm yah....whatever arch. My wife is currently in hospital and there is a huge sign when you walked in that clearly states "We provide medical care regardless of your insurance status or lack of payment." While waiting to see the doctor I couldn't help but notice about a dozen programs between the hospital, the county, the state, the feds, and the Catholic Hospital Association to assist people with their medical costs. So yah, you can take your 50% tax rate and choke.

[hatepoppy]

Ummmm yah....whatever arch. My wife is currently in hospital and there is a huge sign when you walked in that clearly states "We provide medical care regardless of your insurance status or lack of payment." While waiting to see the doctor I couldn't help but notice about a dozen programs between the hospital, the county, the state, the feds, and the Catholic Hospital Association to assist people with their medical costs. So yah, you can take your 50% tax rate and choke.just to make a point, the sign you mentioned is law. they have to treat you. they dont, however, have to do it for free. they'll bill you and if you dont pay theyll garnish your wages. or if youre anything like my mom, not only do you have no means to repay, but youve got an under-the-table job, so it just sits there on her credit report until the statute of limitations is up.

so yeah, theyll treat you. and send you a bill in the mail.

[Claydon]

just to make a point, the sign you mentioned is law. they have to treat you. they dont, however, have to do it for free. they'll bill you and if you dont pay theyll garnish your wages. or if youre anything like my mom, not only do you have no means to repay, but youve got an under-the-table job, so it just sits there on her credit report until the statute of limitations is up.

so yeah, theyll treat you. and send you a bill in the mail.

What, you think MDs, Nurses, Lab Tech, Rad techs do shit for free? And if you think it is expensive NOW with medicare/caid setting the bar for fees, you think it will be more cost effective under a government run operation? You know I had over 15,000 in medical bills and i worked with the hospital at one point paying only $15 a month, and between my phone calls to the hospital, the county and state, the whole thing got taken care of in 2 1/2 years without a blemish on my credit.

[hatepoppy]

What, you think MDs, Nurses, Lab Tech, Rad techs do shit for free? And if you think it is expensive NOW with medicare/caid setting the bar for fees, you think it will be more cost effective under a government run operation? You know I had over 15,000 in medical bills and i worked with the hospital at one point paying only $15 a month, and between my phone calls to the hospital, the county and state, the whole thing got taken care of in 2 1/2 years without a blemish on my credit.who 'runs' medicare/caid? the tooth fairy? mike ditka? its the damn govt, artard.
Medicare is a social insurance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_insurance) program administered by the United States government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government)

im not arguing for socialized health care.

im pointing out that you were making it seem as though there was no difference between the benefits we get here and what they get in a socialized healthcare system.

how did you deduce that i thought doctors work for free? of course they get paid, its just a question of the mechanism through which theyre paid - privatized (though quasi-socialized through govt subsidies) billing, or completely socialized billing (or taxes). he pays more in taxes and gets free docs. we pay less taxes and get raped by docs. same diff to the docs.

[Claydon]

im not arguing for socialized health care.

im pointing out that you were making it seem as though there was no difference between the benefits we get here and what they get in a socialized healthcare system.

how did you deduce that i thought doctors work for free? of course they get paid, its just a question of the mechanism through which theyre paid - privatized (though quasi-socialized through govt subsidies) billing, or completely socialized billing (or taxes). he pays more in taxes and gets free docs. we pay less taxes and get raped by docs. same diff to the docs.

Its called access. Try to get a non emergency medical procedure done say in the UK or Canada. Good luck! I really find the 'lottery' system of canada to be hilarious. They draw numbers in some towns and call to let you know you have been selected to see the doctor that week. Wow, you get a lot for that 50% tax rate.

[hatepoppy]

as you're arguing the point you choose, and not the point in question, i'll let you be a kid. have fun making clicky noises on your typey-box.

[fuldstændigamok]

Its called access. Try to get a non emergency medical procedure done say in the UK or Canada. Good luck! I really find the 'lottery' system of canada to be hilarious. They draw numbers in some towns and call to let you know you have been selected to see the doctor that week. Wow, you get a lot for that 50% tax rate.

I don't know about canada, at all, and quite frankly, I don't give a shit, but do you really think that we have to wait for a week to see a doc in France? Or in Denmark?
You have no idea of what you're speaking about in this case.

[Soup Nazi]

Whether I move to another country (which is, somewhat likely) or not, will not be a result of any president. I'm an Obama supporter, and I can honestly say there is as much of a chance of me leaving under an Obama presidency, as their is a McCain presidency.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

The concept of leaving the US if a particular person wins is dumb. If for no other reason than that suggests that an individual president has sufficient power to undermine the entire system, and even the most negatively overreaching presidents (Nixon, W Bush) haven't really brought the sky down.

[Claydon]

I don't know about canada, at all, and quite frankly, I don't give a shit, but do you really think that we have to wait for a week to see a doc in France? Or in Denmark?
You have no idea of what you're speaking about in this case.

Well, when France sells 50 year bonds and runs a budget deficit greater than 5% of GDP in violation of EU rules Im sure the wait time is quit minimal. Of course France also has 'wealth flight' in order to avoid the rather crushing tax rates for those of means.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

so yeah, theyll treat you. and send you a bill in the mail.

Gee...imagine that! Having to pay for services rendered. It's a world gone mad I tell ya.

[wacker]

I'll have a spare bedroom come January. It's in the basement so it might a little cold for some of you southerners.

[hatepoppy]

Gee...imagine that! Having to pay for services rendered. It's a world gone mad I tell ya.
im fine w it. gaydon was trying to make it seem like there was free hospitals around. i was merely contradicting the notion.

[cAsE sEnSiTiVe]

im fine w it. gaydon was trying to make it seem like there was free hospitals around. i was merely contradicting the notion.

Free hospitals abound here in Cali....but only if you're not here legally. Free is a loose term though as it applies here, for that bill simply gets passed on to us paying customers.

[Claydon]

im fine w it. gaydon was trying to make it seem like there was free hospitals around. i was merely contradicting the notion.

nor are there free hospitals in the promised lands of france, canada and or germany. the cost is incurred by all rather than the patient.

[Archetype]

Hey, don't look at us, your government spends more per capita on health care than ours does.

[hatepoppy]

nor are there free hospitals in the promised lands of france, canada and or germany. the cost is incurred by all rather than the patient.
you just dont get when youre fucking retarded do you? that was my whole damn point. SAME FUCKING DIFFERENCE. you pay for medical care. everywhere.

dont wanna pay for the poor or unemployed people's health care? tough shit. we do it here in the form of increased premiums and taxes + our own out of pocket. theyve got no premiums, no out of pocket, lots of taxes. it's not a huge difference in quality of living.

the only conceivable (to me) difference is that in america, people will ignorantly refuse to see a doctor or go to the emergency room when they need it because they cant afford it or think they cant afford it. in france or canada, they see the doctor bc its paid for anyway. socializing health care promotes better health in the underclass while slightly raising the net health cost for the country.

the rich pay for the poor everywhere. its just do you want to fairly provide for the low end, or allow them to die of ignorance? im not advocating either way. its just not that different fiscally.

[Claydon]

you just dont get when youre fucking retarded do you? that was my whole damn point. SAME FUCKING DIFFERENCE. you pay for medical care. everywhere.

dont wanna pay for the poor or unemployed people's health care? tough shit. we do it here in the form of increased premiums and taxes + our own out of pocket. theyve got no premiums, no out of pocket, lots of taxes. it's not a huge difference in quality of living.

the only conceivable (to me) difference is that in america, people will ignorantly refuse to see a doctor or go to the emergency room when they need it because they cant afford it or think they cant afford it. in france or canada, they see the doctor bc its paid for anyway. socializing health care promotes better health in the underclass while slightly raising the net health cost for the country.

the rich pay for the poor everywhere. its just do you want to fairly provide for the low end, or allow them to die of ignorance? im not advocating either way. its just not that different fiscally.


Actually it is not the same, minus the young or the old, and of course the extremely sick or disabled who are not capable of working why should I have to pay for the cost of others? Why should I incur the costs of a system that pays below market prices whereby shifting HUGE costs to others. Why should I have to pay to further enrich insurance companies and law firms that do everything they can to ensure there is no tort reform in this country. Furthermore, how exactly does this promote better health? Such statistics are skewed that we have higher death rates in this country and these stats never take into account such things as 45,000 die in this country in auto accidents because we favor cars (for good or bad) over public systems. Ultimately the bottom line is this, where is the government going to cough up 2 trillion a year to pay for all of this. I assure you taxing warren buffet is not going to cover these costs. Furthermore I pity any fool on here who will attempt to suggest that if the government gets involved that suddenly costs will go down and the system will be streamlined. Nor am I going to suggest that the system such as it is, is perfect. It does need some changes, however upping all of our tax rates 15 to 20% is not the answer.

[Archangel]

Ummmm yah....whatever arch. My wife is currently in hospital and there is a huge sign when you walked in that clearly states "We provide medical care regardless of your insurance status or lack of payment." While waiting to see the doctor I couldn't help but notice about a dozen programs between the hospital, the county, the state, the feds, and the Catholic Hospital Association to assist people with their medical costs. So yah, you can take your 50% tax rate and choke.

You really have no idea how healthcare works in Germany, do you.

[Claydon]

You really have no idea how healthcare works in Germany, do you.

actually i do, and of all the models i prefer of the socialised systems germany's seems to be the least shitty.

[Feng]

Claydon really has his own ideas about how health care works...

I have first hand knowledge of an emergency health care situation in the UK, and it was better than here in the US... For one, the wait time was the same and the treatment was the same. But secondly, the visit was free!

If free or socialized health care is good enough in every other developed nation on the planet, why not here? Oh yeah, because here in capitalist-pig America it is profit-based. And before Claydon tries to rebutt with a statement like, why do lots of people come to the US for special treatement - answer is easy - because being a doctor here is profit based so lots of good doctors from around the world move here to practice AND get rich!

By the way Claydon, that sign that reads "We provide medical care regardless of your insurance status or lack of payment." is actually saying we treat everybody who enters whether they can afford it or not. Those 40 million people without healthcare wind up in debt up to their eyeballs because they got sick as a result, and have no way out. That sign is not something to be proud of - in many ways it is a death sentence for some people.

Nice thread-jack, by the way... Isn't this about where you'd move to if Warmonger and his Dinosaur Whispering VP win?

[hatepoppy]

Claydon really has his own ideas about how health care works...

I have first hand knowledge of an emergency health care situation in the UK, and it was better than here in the US... For one, the wait time was the same and the treatment was the same. But secondly, the visit was free!

If free or socialized health care is good enough in every other developed nation on the planet, why not here? Oh yeah, because here in capitalist-pig America it is profit-based. And before Claydon tries to rebutt with a statement like, why do lots of people come to the US for special treatement - answer is easy - because being a doctor here is profit based so lots of good doctors from around the world move here to practice AND get rich!

By the way Claydon, that sign that reads "We provide medical care regardless of your insurance status or lack of payment." is actually saying we treat everybody who enters whether they can afford it or not. Those 40 million people without healthcare wind up in debt up to their eyeballs because they got sick as a result, and have no way out. That sign is not something to be proud of - in many ways it is a death sentence for some people.

Nice thread-jack, by the way... Isn't this about where you'd move to if Warmonger and his Dinosaur Whispering VP win?he has his own conversations.

[taters]

By the way Claydon, that sign that reads "We provide medical care regardless of your insurance status or lack of payment." is actually saying we treat everybody who enters whether they can afford it or not. Those 40 million people without healthcare wind up in debt up to their eyeballs because they got sick as a result, and have no way out. That sign is not something to be proud of - in many ways it is a death sentence for some people.


EXACTLY! Why is this concept so hard for conservatives to understand? Its like like explaining graduate level advanced trigonomics to 3rd graders.

[VoxAngelikus]

If McCain wins the Presidency.... Here is why you should be angry. Here is what you should question. Instead of leaving your country, start asking what the fuck is up with bullshit like this:

http://www.pubrecord.org/nationworld.html?task=category&sectionid=1

http://theboard.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/the-electronic-voting-machine-glitches-begin/

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6559

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0810/S00304.htm

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=73150&sectionid=3510203

http://wvgazette.com/News/200810180380

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/24/voting.problems/?iref=mpstoryview


Three elections in a row tainted with alleged fraud, changed votes, and voting machines that don't work...

[Yelram]

If McCain wins the Presidency.... Here is why you should be angry. Here is what you should question. Instead of leaving your country, start asking what the fuck is up with bullshit like this:

http://www.pubrecord.org/nationworld.html?task=category&sectionid=1

http://theboard.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/the-electronic-voting-machine-glitches-begin/

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=6559

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0810/S00304.htm

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=73150&sectionid=3510203

http://wvgazette.com/News/200810180380

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/24/voting.problems/?iref=mpstoryview


Three elections in a row tainted with alleged fraud, changed votes, and voting machines that don't work...

Yeah because in 2006 there was a republican landslide(/sarcasm)

And its not like large swaths of the northeast that typically go republican didnt go clear to one side.
http://politicalchase.com/tpcfiles/images/new_equipment_map.gif

And its not like many of those machines were made by a company owned by the government of venezuela.

[VoxAngelikus]

DUR HUR HUR HUR!!!!

Sorry you can't understand the point I'm trying to make so let me elucidate for you:

IT'S NOT ABOUT PARTISAN POLITICS

It's not about whether the Red or the Blue comes out on top. It's the fucking process. Why should we have three consecutive elections where the vote has been called into question? Doesn't that bother anyone? That over the course of the past 8 years nothing has been fixed? Nothing has changed? That people still cast votes and don't know if there vote is being counted properly?

I don't care about Red or Blue. I care that the system is apparently still fucked.

[Claydon]

EXACTLY! Why is this concept so hard for conservatives to understand? Its like like explaining graduate level advanced trigonomics to 3rd graders.

because you dipshits, there are a dozen programs at that hospital alone through the city, state and federal governments to get your bill reduced or out right paid for. For fuck sakes, my insurance would not cover my recent influenza vaccine and the county paid for it.

[Claydon]

Claydon really has his own ideas about how health care works...

I have first hand knowledge of an emergency health care situation in the UK, and it was better than here in the US... For one, the wait time was the same and the treatment was the same. But secondly, the visit was free!

If free or socialized health care is good enough in every other developed nation on the planet, why not here? Oh yeah, because here in capitalist-pig America it is profit-based. And before Claydon tries to rebutt with a statement like, why do lots of people come to the US for special treatement - answer is easy - because being a doctor here is profit based so lots of good doctors from around the world move here to practice AND get rich!

By the way Claydon, that sign that reads "We provide medical care regardless of your insurance status or lack of payment." is actually saying we treat everybody who enters whether they can afford it or not. Those 40 million people without healthcare wind up in debt up to their eyeballs because they got sick as a result, and have no way out. That sign is not something to be proud of - in many ways it is a death sentence for some people.

Nice thread-jack, by the way... Isn't this about where you'd move to if Warmonger and his Dinosaur Whispering VP win?

Free? Did you really say free? Have you seen the tax rates in the UK? For god sakes they have taxes on essentials....like FOOD. I enjoy the 40 million stat you point out, I suppose the 260 million of us that have insurance or some form of coverage should bend over like the french and pay out even more in taxes to a bloated and corrupt system.

[Kerjack]

Does Obama support net neutrality? I know Mccain doesn't :mad:

[Claydon]

Does Obama support net neutrality? I know Mccain doesn't :mad:

good question, but bottom line is it all depends how much telcoms and cable companies pour into congressional coffers regardless of obama's view.

[Gary_Busey]

because you dipshits, there are a dozen programs at that hospital alone through the city, state and federal governments to get your bill reduced or out right paid for. For fuck sakes, my insurance would not cover my recent influenza vaccine and the county paid for it.
There must not be enough because the #1 cause of bankruptcy in this country is medical bills.

[Gary_Busey]

Does Obama support net neutrality? I know Mccain doesn't :mad:
Yes, he does.

http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/10/obama-v-mccain.html

[Claydon]

There must not be enough because the #1 cause of bankruptcy in this country is medical bills.

That is a separate albeit important issue, and that is going to go down since congress revamped the bankruptcy laws so that medical expenses cannot be gotten away from via chapter 13. Why is the system so expensive? Is it the lack of a cohesive set of rules, or is it because each state passes its own set of rules (the latter of course). Insurance companies are bastards, you will never hear me suggest otherwise, and they pay what medicare pays ie below cost aka the contracted rate. So, billions and billions are paid but below costs leaving those without coverage to foot the excess. Moving on from there, those on the left do not want to hear this but this country is in serious need of tort reform, when it costs the GP guy I see, $250,000 a year for malpractice insurance, and the OBGYNs in this state are paying close to a million or more per year, that alone is another obscene level of cost. Hospitals have carry umbrella policies in the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars to cover themselves from everything like legit suits to the myriad of bullshit suits thanks to no tort reform in the US.

Look I am not going to say that the system is PERFECT and needs no changes, that is simply untrue. What I will say is that the government can barely issue a drivers license effectively let alone a chemo therapy regime, or a splenectomy. The government has never come in on time, under budget, and everything the government predicts in cost you can usually triple or quadruple. The amount of waste in a government operation is nauseating, furthermore I am simply not inclined to allow the government to grab a 2 trillion dollar segment of out economy. They already got the banks for god sakes.


Here is a link on tort reform, granted it is wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort_reform

[Genius]

good question, but bottom line is it all depends how much telcoms and cable companies pour into congressional coffers regardless of obama's view.
You seem to have a fine time attacking the Democrat health care plan. I'd like to see you actually defend McCain's "plan" of kicking a grand per person directly to insurance companies. "Hey, the system has broken femurs! Let's hit it in the ankles with a hammer!"

[Hanover Fist]

There must not be enough because the #1 cause of bankruptcy in this country is medical bills.

Actually it isn't even close to that according to the National Bankruptcy institute and UC Davis.

http://www-news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=8741
...Overall, Zhu concluded that debt accounted for more than 50 percent of recent bankruptcies, while medical problems caused just 5 percent and unemployment led to only 13 percent.

Zhu found that bankrupt households have bigger mortgages, car loans and credit card balances than solvent ones, but make less than half as much money.

Among bankrupt homeowners, mortgages were 3.21 times higher than annual household income, versus 1.73 times for solvent households. Auto loans were double the annual income for bankrupt households, versus 0.4 times for solvent households. And bankrupt households carried credit card balances that almost equaled their annual household income, while the average credit card balance for solvent households was 6 percent of annual income.

In addition, bankrupt households had a median annual income of $25,738, versus $43,341 for solvent ones. (The median is the midpoint in a set of values; a median income of $25,738 for bankrupt households means that half of the bankrupt households in the study made higher salaries and half made less).

Interestingly, more than 5 percent of bankrupt households owned at least one luxury automobile (average age of the car was 7 years), compared with 8 percent of solvent households (average age was 8 years).

The study also suggests that some Americans deliberately spend beyond their means with the intention of using the bankruptcy system to erase some or all of their debt, and recommends reforms to discourage such abuse.

[Claydon]

You seem to have a fine time attacking the Democrat health care plan. I'd like to see you actually defend McCain's "plan" of kicking a grand per person directly to insurance companies. "Hey, the system has broken femurs! Let's hit it in the ankles with a hammer!"

Sounds great to me, I get a nice tax credit in which I will come out ahead at the end of the year, people without insurance are given a $5000 credit so that they may purchase individual plans whereby requiring, now I know you all hate this concept.....R E S P O N S I B I L I T Y!!! OH NOES!! Yah, because you know giving that 5k to say HHS for a national health care system would be just BRILLIANT! Then we could have a HHS trust fund like social security...safe, liquid....OH NOES, THE CONGRESS HAS IOUS TO social security to the tune of several trillion dollars. Ahhh shucks! Good thing we have the government watching out for our retirements! Next up, government health care! Get a flu vaccine and it should only cost the tax payer $500 as opposed to $25 that it is right now.

[Genius]

Sounds great to me, I get a nice tax credit in which I will come out ahead at the end of the year, people without insurance are given a $5000 credit so that they may purchase individual plans whereby requiring, now I know you all hate this concept.....R E S P O N S I B I L I T Y!!! OH NOES!! Yah, because you know giving that 5k to say HHS for a national health care system would be just BRILLIANT! Then we could have a HHS trust fund like social security...safe, liquid....OH NOES, THE CONGRESS HAS IOUS TO social security to the tune of several trillion dollars. Ahhh shucks! Good thing we have the government watching out for our retirements! Next up, government health care! Get a flu vaccine and it should only cost the tax payer $500 as opposed to $25 that it is right now.
That wasn't a defense of McCain's plan at all. That was an additional attack on the Democrat plan. You're so deluded that you can't even tell the difference anymore.

[Claydon]

That wasn't a defense of McCain's plan at all. That was an additional attack on the Democrat plan. You're so deluded that you can't even tell the difference anymore.

What? I like mccain's plan and I like the tax credit is not a defense? Sorry, you are just a dipshit. Enjoy the coming tax increases to pay for your nanny state.

[Genius]

A tax credit on something that's never been taxed before. Yay for Republican logic. If taxes are so horrible, as I've been led to believe for all of my adult life, why do Republicans continue to pay them? Additionally, I've heard the phrase "tax break" enough times from Republican leadership over the years, that I don't think anyone should be paying any taxes anymore. In fact, we should have gotten enough tax breaks that the government should be paying US taxes! Fucking government, always taxing us, let's turn the tables on those motherfuckers and TAX THEM!!! They'll never know what hit them, let's see how they feel when we take THEIR MONEY!!! Assholes.

[Feng]

Free? Did you really say free? Have you seen the tax rates in the UK? For god sakes they have taxes on essentials....like FOOD. I enjoy the 40 million stat you point out, I suppose the 260 million of us that have insurance or some form of coverage should bend over like the french and pay out even more in taxes to a bloated and corrupt system.

Stop being a paranoid xenophobe. European tax rates are not all that bad, and they cover a lot more services than we get for ours- all we get is an imperial army! In the UK, the income tax rate is 20% (or 40% if you make over $70,000). In the US, it is 14% + 19% for S.S. Not to mention they make more money than us and their money is worth more. The minimum wage in England, in US dollars, is $10/hour, for example. Here, it is anywhere form $6 to $8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_united_states

[Feng]

What? I like mccain's plan and I like the tax credit is not a defense? Sorry, you are just a dipshit. Enjoy the coming tax increases to pay for your nanny state.

What McCain's health plan? Where your employers will drop your insurance because they are no longer have to provide it, forcing you to take your $5k credit to go and buy a $10,000 plan? A family of four with good health insurance costs $2000 a month!!!

Of course, you can buy crap insurance from a state that will do for health care what Delaware has done for credit cards. Good luck finding good insurance, with individuals buying their own, the companies will work in so much fine print and legalease that nothing will be covered when you actually need it.

McCain's "federalist" attitude is so retarded. In his America you would have to go to:
Arizona for medical coverage
Nevada for an abortion (but your insurance won't cover it!)
Oregon for buying things w/o sales tax
California to get gay married
... basically a different state for anything that you want to do which is not legal or covered in your own state... That's some United States there...

[Debo]

You seem to have a fine time attacking the Democrat health care plan. I'd like to see you actually defend McCain's "plan" of kicking a grand per person directly to insurance companies. "Hey, the system has broken femurs! Let's hit it in the ankles with a hammer!"

I don't think that you are stating his plan accurately.

McCain wants to decouple medical insurance from your place of employment and he wants us to be able to buy insurance from any state in the country (e.g., I would be able to buy a plan under FL's insurance laws instead of one under NY's insurance laws. The price difference is huge).


Since your employer currently pays for some of your health care costs, McCain wants to give you a tax credit to offset the part of the bill that your employer picked up before (Your employer's portion is already subsidized by the government under the current tax code).

The WSJ ran two stories comparing both of their plans.
Here (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122480836492564419.html?mod=todays_us_opinion) and here (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122470511751259445.html?mod=todays_us_personal_j ournal).

Here (http://johnshadegg.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=43436) is an article about buying across state lines and here (http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007011) is another one (notice what mandates do to prices. Now imagine what Obama's mandate is going to do to prices).

A tax credit on something that's never been taxed before. Yay for Republican logic. If taxes are so horrible, as I've been led to believe for all of my adult life, why do Republicans continue to pay them? Additionally, I've heard the phrase "tax break" enough times from Republican leadership over the years, that I don't think anyone should be paying any taxes anymore. In fact, we should have gotten enough tax breaks that the government should be paying US taxes! Fucking government, always taxing us, let's turn the tables on those motherfuckers and TAX THEM!!! They'll never know what hit them, let's see how they feel when we take THEIR MONEY!!! Assholes.

You can't be serious, it is illegal to not pay your taxes. People bitch about paying them because they are forced by the law to pay them. How much do you voluntarily pay in additional taxes each year? Do you take standard deductions, or itemized deductions, on your tax forms? Or do you pay as much as possible?

Taxing the government doesn't even make sense. They tax us, then we tax them back? How about they just tax us less and we call it a day.

What McCain's health plan? Where your employers will drop your insurance because they are no longer have to provide it, forcing you to take your $5k credit to go and buy a $10,000 plan? A family of four with good health insurance costs $2000 a month!!!

Of course, you can buy crap insurance from a state that will do for health care what Delaware has done for credit cards. Good luck finding good insurance, with individuals buying their own, the companies will work in so much fine print and legalease that nothing will be covered when you actually need it.

You do realize that buying from a different state is a good thing, don't you? When I moved to NY from FL, the exact same plan cost $72 a month in FL versus $250 in NY. It was exactly the same thing, just 350% more expensive in NY.

[Gary_Busey]

Tax credit? Sounds like socialism to me!

[taters]

because you dipshits, there are a dozen programs at that hospital alone through the city, state and federal governments to get your bill reduced or out right paid for. For fuck sakes, my insurance would not cover my recent influenza vaccine and the county paid for it.


Um, No there isnt. In a select few (almost all Blue) states, there is, but for the most part, no, such things do not exist.

Likewise, they wont pay for things like, oh say cancer medications/treatment, or certain surgeries, or certain prescription drugs.

But keep imagining things.

[Debo]

Tax credit? Sounds like socialism to me!

Then you don't know what the definition of socialism is.

[Claydon]

Stop being a paranoid xenophobe. European tax rates are not all that bad, and they cover a lot more services than we get for ours- all we get is an imperial army! In the UK, the income tax rate is 20% (or 40% if you make over $70,000). In the US, it is 14% + 19% for S.S. Not to mention they make more money than us and their money is worth more. The minimum wage in England, in US dollars, is $10/hour, for example. Here, it is anywhere form $6 to $8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_united_states

Tax rates greater than roughly $64,000 pay a 40% rate. Not to mention all the taxes on energy, so called green taxes, food, and the list goes on and on. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm So someone in the Uk making a modest amount of money gets hit with a 40% tax rate. Yet the nominee you apparently support wants to lower your tax rate and yet you want more social programs. This is not atypical of the american electorate, you want it all for free but do not want to pay for these services. I on the other hand do not want it all for free from the government, I would rather pay a lower tax rate and have a more diverse economy that is more resilient to situations such as we are in now. The last president to raise taxes significantly on corporations and the rich in a time of an economic down turn was Carter, and that went exceeeeeeedingly well.

[Claydon]

About the 40+ days of waiting for hospital treatment and non emergency diagnostics...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-525748/Average-NHS-waiting-times-RISEN-Labour--despite-90bn-investment.html

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=270338135202343
Issues of the Canadian System written by one of its doctors.

Again, I do not claim the US system is perfect, it is in need of some change, first up on the list tort reform. however the trial lawyer lobby of the left would never let that go down.

[Feng]

You do realize that buying from a different state is a good thing, don't you? When I moved to NY from FL, the exact same plan cost $72 a month in FL versus $250 in NY. It was exactly the same thing, just 350% more expensive in NY.

Today, it looks like a good thing. But open it up to let anybody buy from any state, and you'll see every insurance company relocate to the state with the most lax laws, regulations and restrictions to set up their shop. And then just imagine how fun it will be to have to shop around for the right health insurance plan for you and your family, while trying to find a plan that is affordable and offers good coverage and isn't riddled with loop holes that can get them out of covering the most basic of health needs when you need it. Of course there will always be reputable companies, but they'll also be the expensive ones.

[Claydon]

Today, it looks like a good thing. But open it up to let anybody buy from any state, and you'll see every insurance company relocate to the state with the most lax laws, regulations and restrictions to set up their shop. And then just imagine how fun it will be to have to shop around for the right health insurance plan for you and your family, while trying to find a plan that is affordable and offers good coverage and isn't riddled with loop holes that can get them out of covering the most basic of health needs when you need it. Of course there will always be reputable companies, but they'll also be the expensive ones.

Odd, that has not occurred with auto insurance, home insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, and the list goes on.

[Claydon]

You do realize that buying from a different state is a good thing, don't you? When I moved to NY from FL, the exact same plan cost $72 a month in FL versus $250 in NY. It was exactly the same thing, just 350% more expensive in NY.

that was because of all the old jews in FL.

oh yah, thats right, I blamed the jews! :rolleyes:

[Claydon]

Um, No there isnt. In a select few (almost all Blue) states, there is, but for the most part, no, such things do not exist.

Likewise, they wont pay for things like, oh say cancer medications/treatment, or certain surgeries, or certain prescription drugs.

But keep imagining things.

All I hear are excuses, and yet all I have ever found in my years as an adult are solutions to health care costs. My wife has received completely free of charge nearly a million dollars of medication from an EVIL drug company. Oh yah, thats right....FREE. All I did was send two emails about 6 years ago, a few phone calls, she had some blood work done and she has been receiving this medication for free. Tater and others are such screaming examples of the 'victim society'.

[Gary_Busey]

If that is indeed true, that's a rarity. Quit acting like it's so easy to get free medication or medical treatment.

[Claydon]

If that is indeed true, that's a rarity. Quit acting like it's so easy to get free medication or medical treatment.

it is indeed true. and nothing is for free, I am sure the medication she receives is written off at the end of the year. I never suggested anything was free, what I am suggesting is that there is usually a way and sitting on one's ass saying the government owes you is not going to work.

[Gary_Busey]

Government owes you? You mean like a tax credit?

[taters]

To everyone who hates social progress program and hates taxes, dont like paying taxes...stay the fuck off the rest of our:

streets
schools
water
sidwalks
gas (subsidized)
power
cars (subsidized)
planes (ditto)
produce (ditto)

and get your own fucking military to protect you from terrorist/foreigners/canadians/nonwhites and russians, if you hate taxes so much.

While your at it, get your own police to protect you from everyone else, particularly those like you who will also be going without the above mentioned items. Hows that for anti-socialism?

[Feng]

Odd, that has not occurred with auto insurance, home insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, and the list goes on.

Umm, actually it has. Think every insurance provider is perfect, and offers affordable, just and clearly explained policies? Every type of insurance you listed has had its share of shady companies, scams and people left high and dry thinking they were covered - until they needed some coverage.

A quick search over at scamclub.com under Insurance Scams brings up a number of entries of people being screwed by the insurance they thought they bought. For example:

My employer does not offer health care coverage, so I am responsible to pay for and maintain my own coverage. Due to the outrageous costs of health care, I shopped on the internet for quotes-totally unaware of health insurance scams...The 'insurance' was affordable, so I signed up for the preferred plan....For my optical insurance, I was told that I was through VSP Vision. When I called VSP, they didn't even have me in their system-not by name, social security number, or member #-nothing! For my dental insurance, I was originally told that I was through Reliance Standard. When I called Reliance, same thing-I wasn't in their system....etc... And they go on for many paragraphs to explain how screwed they got... This is McCain's future health care system in action!

http://www.scamclub.com/reports/Adova-HealthConsumer-Aliance-USA-5505.html

Obama's plan is so simple: keep the system we got, and add some needed improvements. But make it MUCH MORE available to those who can't get it from their employers, so people don't have to fall prey to scammers while looking for the best deal!

[Claydon]

Umm, actually it has. Think every insurance provider is perfect, and offers affordable, just and clearly explained policies? Every type of insurance you listed has had its share of shady companies, scams and people left high and dry thinking they were covered - until they needed some coverage.

A quick search over at scamclub.com under Insurance Scams brings up a number of entries of people being screwed by the insurance they thought they bought. For example:

And they go on for many paragraphs to explain how screwed they got... This is McCain's future health care system in action!

http://www.scamclub.com/reports/Adova-HealthConsumer-Aliance-USA-5505.html

Obama's plan is so simple: keep the system we got, and add some needed improvements. But make it MUCH MORE available to those who can't get it from their employers, so people don't have to fall prey to scammers while looking for the best deal!

So your position is the government is just shy of jesus ie perfect and would NEVER screw anyone over?

[Mustard]

Silly Claydon... Jesus didn't exist.

[Claydon]

Silly Claydon... Jesus didn't exist.

FUCK YOU SINK! HE'S REAL MAN!!

[Mustard]

FUCK YOU SINK! HE'S REAL MAN!!
Are you sure?

[Claydon]

Are you sure?

Quite, I mean after all, it is simply ludicrous to think that the universe formed based on the laws of physics and that we humans shared a common ancestor with chimps.

[Mustard]

Quite, I mean after all, it is simply ludicrous to think that the universe formed based on the laws of physics and that we humans shared a common ancestor with chimps.
MADNESS!

[Debo]

Today, it looks like a good thing. But open it up to let anybody buy from any state, and you'll see every insurance company relocate to the state with the most lax laws, regulations and restrictions to set up their shop. And then just imagine how fun it will be to have to shop around for the right health insurance plan for you and your family, while trying to find a plan that is affordable and offers good coverage and isn't riddled with loop holes that can get them out of covering the most basic of health needs when you need it. Of course there will always be reputable companies, but they'll also be the expensive ones.

They could offer such a plan, this is true. But what happens when nobody buys it? What happens when their competition offers a better plan for the same price?

You are assuming that us, the consumer, will be willing to buy whatever they put out. For a number of reasons, I do not believe that we will buy whatever they put in front of us.

[Feng]

They could offer such a plan, this is true. But what happens when nobody buys it? What happens when their competition offers a better plan for the same price?

You are assuming that us, the consumer, will be willing to buy whatever they put out. For a number of reasons, I do not believe that we will buy whatever they put in front of us.

If you put it up for sale... they will buy it...

[VoxAngelikus]

7 Things That Could Go Wrong on Election Day:

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1853246_1853243,00.html

[Debo]

If you put it up for sale... they will buy it...

Really? Then how does a business fail?

It should be obvious that GM can't just put any car "up for sale" and still make a profit. GM has tried this strategy and they are about to going into bankruptcy because of it.

Please try again.

[Feng]

Really? Then how does a business fail?

That's easy, by letting their expenses exceed their profits.

People will buy anything if offered... Ever hear of those Nigerian Generals asking for $$ and access to your accounts... People buy in to that shit... Scams work, that's why they persist.

You might want to see an eye doctor about that tunnel-vision. :cool:

[Debo]

That's easy, by letting their expenses exceed their profits.

People will buy anything if offered... Ever hear of those Nigerian Generals asking for $$ and access to your accounts... People buy in to that shit... Scams work, that's why they persist.

You might want to see an eye doctor about that tunnel-vision. :cool:

Or businesses fail because people don't buy what they are selling.

If I don't like the plan that United is offering me in NY, I can buy a plan from BSBS in OH. It sounds like you think that I am just going to call United, buy their plan regardless of what they offer and call it a day. I could, but then I get what I deserve.

People smoke crack, does that mean that we should make 401K plans illegal? That has as much to do as your example of people being stupid does with restricting the health care market.

My vision is just fine.

And back to Obama's plan:

Obama vs. His Advisers

On health care, they once liked McCain's principles.

One underreported story of this election is how heavily John McCain has been damaged by Barack Obama's television ad assault on his health-care plan. A lot of voters seem to believe the Democrat when he says that Mr. McCain wants to deny them coverage or bankrupt them with crushing hospital bills.
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-CO353_oj_1fu_D_20081024212557.jpg AP


Mr. McCain has himself to blame for not defending his own reform ideas, during the debates and in TV ads, against attacks that have been misleading when not flat-out false. Even so, Mr. Obama's tactics are especially cynical because his own health-care advisers support plans much like Mr. McCain's. Or at least they did before joining up with Mr. Obama.


Put simply, the McCain plan seeks to remedy a distortion in the health-care market that economists have spent decades begging politicians to fix: The tax code subsidizes insurance only if it is provided through employers. Individuals can't take the same tax deduction for buying insurance that businesses can. So Mr. McCain wants to "spread the wealth" of these tax breaks to individuals of any income through a refundable tax credit, no matter where they get coverage.


"The fact that the tax subsidy, which supports the employer-sponsored system, is better than nothing is a feeble excuse for resisting any changes to the status quo." That's not John McCain's judgment. It's a quote from Jason Furman, who happens to be Mr. Obama's economic policy director. In a cri de coeur published in the journal Democracy in 2006, Mr. Furman implored fellow Democrats and other progressives to confront "a critical missing link" in their health ideology -- the same link his boss now spends most of his time demagoguing.
Mr. Furman used to portray the current system as regressive, inequitable and a subsidy for health plans that insulate consumers from the cost of their care, thus inflating health spending. When he was director of the Brooking Institution's Hamilton Project, Mr. Furman outlined a health reform -- again using tax credits -- that took the "sensible approach" of "exposing individuals to the price of health care through greater cost sharing."


When President Bush unveiled a health reform similar to Mr. McCain's in 2007, Mr. Furman co-authored a Tax Policy Center paper that called it "innovative and a step in the right direction." As recently as May, he published a long article in Health Affairs on the possibilities of health-care tax reform.


What a difference an election makes. "The choice you'll have," Mr. Obama warned of the McCain plan during one of the debates, "is having your employer no longer provide you health care." Sounds terrible. But wait, let's consult another one of Mr. Obama's advisers. David Cutler, the Otto Eckstein Professor of Applied Economics at Harvard, put it this way: "Health insurance is not something that is made better by tying it to employment. As a result, essentially all economists believe that universal coverage should be done outside of employment."
That passage comes from Mr. Cutler's 2004 book, "Your Money or Your Life," which outlined a strategy for universal health care. Not surprisingly, Professor Cutler's plan, like Mr. McCain's, also applied subsidies such as "tax credits -- people get a lower tax bill, or a refund from the government, to be used to purchase insurance." In this he was echoing many other liberal health experts such as MIT's Jonathan Gruber, another Democratic policy star.


These advisers know that Mr. Obama's claim that Mr. McCain will tax health benefits "for the first time in history" is particularly disingenuous. For people who stick with employer coverage under the McCain plan, the money employers take out of wages to pay for insurance would be taxed, but the new credit more than covers the bill. The people who decide to buy coverage on their own would see their wages rise. And everyone who joins the individual market -- many of them uninsured now -- would be equipped with new health dollars, instead of paying with after-tax income.


Obviously neither Mr. Furman nor Mr. Cutler would endorse the McCain plan outright. They are, after all, Democrats. Liberals who support rearranging the tax code for health care think it must be accompanied by other insurance reforms to protect families in the individual market that Mr. McCain doesn't include. Even so, speaking on a Tax Policy Center panel on taxes and health insurance in February of this year, Mr. Furman said that "I think we should be cheerleading" the emphasis on tax reform, "not writing it off."


He even prefaced his remarks by joking, "this talk might actually sound like a John McCain rally." Maybe Mr. Obama should be running attack ads against his own economic guru.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122488864905768469.html

[Feng]

Or businesses fail because people don't buy what they are selling.

If I don't like the plan that United is offering me in NY, I can buy a plan from BSBS in OH. It sounds like you think that I am just going to call United, buy their plan regardless of what they offer and call it a day. I could, but then I get what I deserve.

People smoke crack, does that mean that we should make 401K plans illegal? That has as much to do as your example of people being stupid does with restricting the health care market.

My vision is just fine.

And back to Obama's plan:



Boy can you miss the point... By opening the health insurance market up to the individual public the way McCain wants to, the flood gates will be spread wide open for predatory companies and/or scams to take advantage of the very dumb-shits who stand up at McCain rallies and say they can't trust Obama, he's Arab...

here's an example, by the way, related to Auto Insurance. you can buy any auto insurance from anywhere. But your rate is partly determined by where you live. The very same plan can vary by hundreds of dollars depending on where you live. Don't think for a second that in McCain's system, Health Insurer's won't decide to define plan rates based on where you live too, no matter where you buy it. So people who live in big cities, where the populations are highest, could be charged a lot more, so the insurers can profit, profit, profit... They'll cite the dangers and risks asscoiated with city life vs. rural life and even create some of their own studies and statistics to justify their plan rates. So it won't matter what state you buy from, because competition will drive them to all adopt the same bullshit policies and their greed will never benefit us.

If you think BSBS in OH is going to sell you the same plan, living in NY, that they sell to OH folks and for the same price, you are dreaming.

The fact that insurance is involved in health care at all is the true crime here, and the absolute root of the problem/crisis in America.

[Satan]

This stupid shit comes up every election. Someone on one side of the aisle says they'll leave the country if candidate X from the other side of the aisle gets elected. So far I can't think of anyone who has actually followed through. Anyone who makes these claims needs to shut the fuck up and stop whining. Just leave if you don't want to be here, don't make a big scene.

[Feng]

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1918245/wassup_2008/

[Debo]

Boy can you miss the point... By opening the health insurance market up to the individual public the way McCain wants to, the flood gates will be spread wide open for predatory companies and/or scams to take advantage of the very dumb-shits who stand up at McCain rallies and say they can't trust Obama, he's Arab...

here's an example, by the way, related to Auto Insurance. you can buy any auto insurance from anywhere. But your rate is partly determined by where you live. The very same plan can vary by hundreds of dollars depending on where you live. Don't think for a second that in McCain's system, Health Insurer's won't decide to define plan rates based on where you live too, no matter where you buy it. So people who live in big cities, where the populations are highest, could be charged a lot more, so the insurers can profit, profit, profit... They'll cite the dangers and risks asscoiated with city life vs. rural life and even create some of their own studies and statistics to justify their plan rates. So it won't matter what state you buy from, because competition will drive them to all adopt the same bullshit policies and their greed will never benefit us.

If you think BSBS in OH is going to sell you the same plan, living in NY, that they sell to OH folks and for the same price, you are dreaming.

The fact that insurance is involved in health care at all is the true crime here, and the absolute root of the problem/crisis in America.

Ugh. Predatory anything only works if people are lazy and simply buy whatever people put in front of them. If you are too lazy or stupid to do your homework, then you are going to get fucked. You can't regulate away stupid.

Yes, lets talk about auto insurance. When I took my current job last year, I needed a car to drive to the client site. I bought my older brother's old late 90s Honda Accord and I went to shop around for insurance. I ended up adding myself to my parents plan since they had the best deal ($50 a month for full coverage). When I went to register my car in NY, they told me that I am only allowed to buy insurance from a NY based insurance agent. Now I pay $120 a month for minimum coverage. And I have the state of NY to thank for it.

There is a significantly higher risk that you are going to be involved in an accident when you live in a big city versus a rural city. Just like there is a significantly higher risk that a teenage male will be in an accident than a teenage female will be in one. You can claim that this is bullshit, but I doubt that you have ever looked at an actuarial table before.

Can you point to an example of when more competition has lead to higher prices (Other than your example)? Normally, in the real world, more competition leads to lower prices, not higher.

So far I have given you two real world examples of the state of NY fucking me over because of their excessive insurance laws and you haven't proved anything to me.

That fact that people want something for free is the real problem, not the insurance companies.

And how about Obama's advisers touting the benefits of McCain's tax credit idea? I noticed that you ignored that part of my post.

[UNC]

Everyone who says they would leave if McCain wins, might as well leave now. You are about as American as Bin Laden

[VoxAngelikus]

Never mind using a McCain win as impetus for leaving the country.... Knowing that this is in my country makes me want to leave the country.

This is what McCain supporters actually believe.

vagD-4AH4Vc

[UNC]

Nobama!

How clever is that?

[VoxAngelikus]

"You ain't no real American!"

"Hussein! President Hussein! That's cool!"

"His wife made him say he's a Christian so he could get elected."

"I don't want to be a Communist. I don't want to be a socialist. I want to be an American!"

"He's a bum!"

"He's bullshit. He's a piece of crap!"


Way to go, America. Show the world the heights of intelligence we are capable of achieving.

[UNC]

On the other hand...I think we can get to the point where we can out think ourselves back into the dark ages.

There is a middle ground that I am comfy with.

[Debo]

Way to go, America. Show the world the heights of intelligence we are capable of achieving.

There are loons on both sides.

What do you think of this?
http://cbs2.com/local/Sarah.Palin.mannequin.2.849299.html

[UNC]

Most black men are hung

[hatepoppy]

Everyone who says they would leave if McCain wins, might as well leave now. You are about as American as Bin Ladenwhich, is, in fact if not by birth, not all that unamerican. just ask tim ossman.

[Archangel]

Way to go, America. Show the world the heights of intelligence we are capable of achieving.

Mate, you guys re-elected Bush. Every single one of the mouth-breathers in your video did.


Nothing retarded that you do surprises the rest of the world anymore.

[hatepoppy]

Mate, you guys re-elected Bush. Every single one of the mouth-breathers in your video did.


Nothing retarded that you do surprises the rest of the world anymore.
that's up for debate.

these fuckers may have voted for bush. but to whom the responsibility of his placement as figurehead of the american empire may be attributed is an entirely separate matter.

[Archangel]

Okay, you let people get away with a retard stealing one election, and then let him be re-elected.

[Phil Theehor]

Blame the Dems for that one, Arch. They ran horribly uninspiring candidates. Really, how can you not beat that guy, twice?

It appears that they have learned from their mistakes this time around.

[VoxAngelikus]

Whoooooaaaaaaaaa.....

I didn't vote to re-elect Bush.

[redsox39]

Clearly you dont know what libertarians are. Libertarianism is not a 'right' or 'left' wing concept, it has elements of both sides.

Civil Libertarianism
Economic Libertarianism
Social Libertarianism
Anarchic Libertarianism

etc


Dont rely on what Hannity, O Reilly and other so called fox-libertarians tell you. Some of the main tenants of libertarianism tend to be things they oppose greatly (freedom of abortion, freedom of civil liberties, freedom of speech, no taxing of unpopular war, no religion in politics, etc etc). Also, ignore the so-called 'american libertarian' party. Its a joke, and when it comes down to it, its supporters only real concern is cutting taxes to things they dont like, not things they do.

Libertarianism is smaller government, total freedom of choice, not income redistribution and afirmative action.

Your idea is a joke.
You took left wing agenda's and tried to place them in the party. No Taxing of an unpopular war? How about no taxing on anything then. We are for no taxation without representation. Unfortunetly, the congress we elected to represent us voted for the war. So we booted them...and put in an even WORSE congress. (hindsight being what it is) I say we because WE make up that middle 10-20% that decides things.
Abortion is a non issue with us.
Gay Marriage is a non issue with us.
But you can say goodbye to:
Welfare, Medicaid, and pretty much any social programs for able bodied people.
You can kiss goodbye the tax refunds to the "rich" because they won't be nessasary because people won't be giving up 25-45% of what they earn to the worst spender of money in the history of the world, the US Government.
You can forget any program based on religion, Race, or Sex. If it needs Government support to suceed, the people are obviously not behind it.

Don't try to describe something you know nothing about. Stick on the far left, blame someone else first, Ican'tbecauseI'mblackandgrewuppoor, get my jollies watching Bill Maher say exactly what I want to hear, fuck the rich Liberal side.

what? You don't like it when someone who is on the outside tries to describe your party?

[Morfin]

Whoooooaaaaaaaaa.....

I didn't vote to re-elect Bush.

I did. This one's on me. Sorry. My bad.